Poll: Catholics favored Bush over Kerry

[truthpusher]

http://www.nj.com/newsflash/jersey/index.ssf?/base/national-38/1107441158134640.xml&storylist=njhomepage

Poll: Catholics favored Bush over Kerry

2/3/2005, 9:52 a.m. ET
By RICHARD N. OSTLING
The Associated Press

(AP) — John Kerry managed the best showing in decades for a Democratic presidential candidate among mainline Protestants, but his failure to capture a majority of Roman Catholics — people of his own faith — gave President Bush an important advantage in last November's election, according to a new survey.

Bush's showing also improved dramatically among Hispanic Protestants, 63 percent of whom supported him in 2004 — a 31 percent gain over 2000.

The postelection phone survey of 2,730 people, conducted by the University of Akron and sponsored by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, is a close study of voting behavior and religious faith.

Among non-Hispanic Catholics, Kerry won the support of 69 percent with those with liberal or "modernist" beliefs, while 72 percent of "traditionalists" favored Bush. But importantly, 55 percent of the key swing group of "centrists" picked Bush over Kerry, who was criticized by bishops for his support of abortion rights.

The upshot: A one-time Democratic mainstay, Catholics gave Bush an overall edge of 53 percent to Kerry's 47 percent.

complete story >>>>> http://www.nj.com/newsflash/jersey/index.ssf?/base/national-38/1107441158134640.xml&storylist=njhomepage

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. Do you know how many Rethugs hate Catholics!?!

:wtf:

and they voted for Bushitler???

:grr:

[VegasWolf]

7. Yep, it's like a guy driving a pickup truck voting Republican. n/t

[seriousstan]

13. Maybe they stopped by here first and say the Catholic bashing

and were driven away. As I recall, there were reports of Rush quoting the DU in the months leading up to the election.

Maybe I am wrong, but this has been a fear of mine for quite some time. You don't convince people that you are an inclusive group by vilifying them and their God.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

39. Is voicing disagreement with the Catholic religion bashing?

Honestly, it's like you can't say anything about a religion without someone jumping to the conclusion that you are a "basher."

Please.

[Princess Turandot]

48. No, but immediately resorting to name calling is..

that is generally where discussions abt Catholicism wind up on this website. Bringing up the sex scandal out of context is the same thing, which happens constantly. It's likely that people who make these posts have nothing really original to say, so they resort to posting slurs or off-point comments but it's still bashing.

I'm Catholic. I'm not stupid, ignorant or scared by the Church, as a poster observed below. I don't know any Catholics who are Republicans. I've never actually heard a comment from a Catholic religious individual such as a priest or sister about abortion, but then again, I live in a serious Blue State. I also (beyond knowing the text of the opening of Genesis) have never heard anything about Creationism, even in Catholic school, since as another poster observed here, the Catholic Church doesn't disagree with the science of evolution.

People are noting here about how Catholics should keep in mind that
Fundamentalists hate Catholics. I know that. But I'll tell you in all honesty, whether you choose to believe it or not, that I never had any idea how widespread animosity towards Catholics was, until I came to this board last year and saw comments being made by people here abt Catholicism.

I'm not referring to your posts as I assume you realize.

[Psephos]

72. It's true, there's a lot of gratuitous Catholic bashing here

As you noted, most of the bashers repeat stereotyped anti-Catholic "truisms" in the same way other bigots slur, for example, brown people or people from a lower socioeconomic class. I've noticed Jews come in for a lot of off-topic cudgeling as well. Often these kinds of comments bear little or no relation to the topic being discussed.

It seems that all bigots, like alcoholics, grow angry or defensive when someone points out they may have a problem. In fact, it's one of the diagnostic signs.

Bigotry is not confined to any one class or political stripe of humans, and it's not a shock to find it here. That much said, the bigots are a small minority on DU; in my experience, the average DUer is the opposite of a bigot.

[Behind the Aegis]

104. Glass house

You say..."It's true, there's a lot of gratuitous Catholic bashing here." Then you turn around and say..."I've noticed Jews come in for a lot of off-topic cudgeling as well." So, is it OK to bash one religion and not another? Or is it "...that all bigots, like alcoholics, grow angry or defensive when someone points out they may have a problem."?

[Psephos]

105. Aegis, you misunderstood what I said

Or I chose an unclear way of saying it. What I meant was that Jews also get bashed gratuitously a lot here, just as Catholics do. I'll also remind you that in my post, I said I believe this is limited to a small minority of DUers who are vocal beyond their numbers.

Ironically, many of the bashers exhibit rigid adherence to an orthodox set of beliefs, manifested through classic religious intolerance for others.

Peace.

[Behind the Aegis]

106. Thank you for clearing that up!

The wording you chose made it look like you were saying that Jews were the ones doing the bashing! I was a little taken aback! I see what you are saying now, and I do agree with you.

Thank you for taking the time to clear that up!

Shalom

[Psephos]

131. Anytime :-) n/t

[Carlos Martillo]

115. That bashing is driving them to the Republican Party

and they probably won't be coming back as long as the Republicans can frame the political sphere in a moral setting.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

97. Thanks for clarifying...

I was raised a catholic, but now am a non-believer. I think it's reasonable to have discussion on certain Catholic beliefs, but blatant insults are uncalled for.

[merh]

135. You mean you are one of the fortunate few Catholics that was

not force feed the notion that the pope said we could not vote for a candidate that was pro-abortion?

You didn't attend a mass where instead of a homily the "anti-abortion" political position was discussed and we were told that our duty as Catholics was to look at the political position of the candidate, not his religion, and decide if those positions (gay marriage, abortion) were in keeping with the tenets of the religion?

You were lucky - I haven't been in a church since. They distorted the message of the Vatican by neglecting to point out that the Pope/Vatican is anti-war and has begged the US to (1) not go to war and (2) stop the war. They neglected to say that pro-capital punishment candidates (the weed) are apposite to the Vatican's anti-capital punishment position. They neglected to discuss the anti-torture stance of the church and they neglected to discuss the stance of the church that it is the social programs promoted by a candidate that must be considered - feed the poor, house the homeless, take care of the old, the sick, the infirmed, fight poverty, visit and be kind to prisoners, etc.

Most Catholic leaders in the USofA sold out the church for their 30 pieces of silver -- faith based initiatives and TORT REFORM. I mean, how many dioceses are almost bankrupt defending their practice of transferring rather than disciplining priests that were accused of improper conduct with parishioners, especially children. The USA Churches want to be protected from all of those lawsuits and guess who is pushing tort reform.

You are very lucky that your parish did not sell out to the neo-cons. I am not.

[never_get_over_it]

150. Well I was raised Catholic

and grew up next to the priest's rectory and I can tell you from first hand personal experience it would be hard to find a bigger group of hypocrits than the ones that went to that church. I left the Catholic Church and have never never never regreted it. And I do know Catholics who voted against Kerry and Gore because of abortion. And you know what I would like to say to all these ignorant Catholic freaks or any ignorant freak who voted for Bush because of abortion

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT KILLING IRAQI BABIES?

May anyone who voted for Geroge Bush because they think he is a moral religious man ROT IN HELL.

[Modem Butterfly]

58. Excuses, excuses, excuses

As I recall, there were reports of Rush quoting the DU in the months leading up to the election.

Oh please. Do you actually believe those quotes were real? Do you really believe Rush and Hannity et. al wouldn't hesitate for a minute to just make up some nice, juicy quotes if none presented themselves?

You don't convince people that you are an inclusive group by vilifying them and their God.

No, you sure don't. But if you convince them that God wants your guy to win, they'll sure vote with you. Fundies have been villifying Catholics for decades. The Righties didn't get the Catholics vote by convincing them that they were suddenly accepting, they got their votes by conflating W and Jesus and smearing John Kerry.

[Occulus]

96. Both have demonized gays for centuries.

So I'd say I have a motherfucking demonstrable right to bash a little on both groups.

What- did you expect me to sit here and just take it all forever?

Oh, and if you (this is the collective form of 'you', now) expect me to "play nice" with you- get rid of the fuckwads in your religion first. Then I'll start being nice again.

I'm to the point of wanting to douse practitioners with pig's blood! I'm getting GODDAMN SICK AND BLOODY TIRED OF GETTING SHIT ON BY "RELIGIOUS" PEOPLE AND I'M NOT TAKING IT ANY FUCKING MORE!!!!!

There- I feel much better now. ;)

[Dookus]

103. What catholic bashing?

I've heard of gay bashing - it involves taking bricks and bats to the heads of my gay brothers and sisters. But Catholic-bashing? How many people have been beaten senseless in the US recently for being Catholic? None.

OOOOH!!! I know.... you think the occasional insult is equivalent to having your skull bashed in. You are mistaken, and it's an insult to REAL victims of bashing to equate an insult on a message board to actual bashing.

For the largest, most powerful denomination in the world, it sure crumbles under the slightest criticism.

And no, I don't think comments on DU about the Catholic Church caused large numbers of voters to go for Bush.

[merh]

136. As a Catholic, I have every right to bash the practices of our

Church that are contrary to the teachings of my God. On one had, we claim to be the religion of love and acceptance, yet on the other, we selectively chose who to love. My brother studied to be a priest for years, he left his studies because he could not understand or appreciate a religion that said "love thy neighbor as yourself" but told him who he could associate with and who he could not.

All religions practice hypocricy, the Catholic church doesn't have a monopoly on that wrong. However, when we practioners do not recognize that the church is not our God, only a resource to use to help us worship our God and a resource to use to help us understand how to follow the teachings of our God, then we should be called on the cuff and reminded of the teachings. That is not Catholic bashing, it is just friendly reminders that the Church is not always right. When the Church pushes policies that are outside of the teachings of Christ, then the Church is wrong. Plain and simple!

[hector459]

41. Do most Catholics really know what the evangelicals call them and how

they really feel about them? It's not about what happens to you in the womb, it's what happens to you after you are born.

I used to attend an evangelical church. I can't even repeat what they really feel about Catholics but let's just say Jim Jones has a higher standing than the Pope.

[AngryOldDem]

138. No, they do not

Which, more than the blind support for Bush during the election, scares and infuriates me the most. The people in fundamentalist Protestantism who some Catholics are some of the most hostile anti-Catholics you'll ever come across.

[Riding this Donkey]

46. I am Catholic and ALL I see now is the Church and the Pope

condoning is pedophilia by their inaction! Disgusting! I love my religion but God my Lord gave me a brain and I intend to use it. I take what I like from these pious men and leave the rest.

[Nightwing]

117. Reagan changed the Catholic dynamic

Reagan knew how to win over the Catholic vote; He promised to end abortions and that was what drove millions of Catholics from the Dem Party. I know that fact personally because I'm Catholic and I know hundreds of other Catholics that point to Reagan's anti abortion stance as their rationale for moving to the right.

As I tried to explain to all of them, abortion is a personal issue. But none understood. The religious rights biggest flaw is that they wish to judge which is something only God will do. I can understand their passion to correct that which they think is wrong; Too bad though they haven't the same passion for preventing a catastrophic war killing thousands of young Americans for NOTHING or forcing the moron that lied to start the war to face accountability. If they wish to judge other people, why does * get a free pass? That is the key question here when dealing with any religious denominations fervent support for the chimp.

[Mr_Spock]

2. Can someone tell me why Catholics would vote for a mass-murderer

who ignored their Pope - basically told the Pope to SHOVE IT?

Are Catholics stupid or something?

[4_Legs_Good]

5. Because we've allowed the Republicans to frame the morality debate...

They've allied themselves with conservative Bishops and viola! The only thing that determines a politician's fitness is how s/he votes on reproductive rights.

As a Catholic it disgusts me, utterly.

Democrats MUST regain the Catholic and Hispanic vote. They don't need to change position to do this, they just have to take *back* the morality issue and broaden it to include so many other issues, particularly the ones where the government has some business - helping the less fortunate, eductating our children, avoiding war.

Even the freaking Pope said just before the election that you shouldn't make your judgements based on one issue.

david

[mzmolly]

19. You said it. We ceeded the "moral high ground" and we must take it back!

We need a VOCAL LEFTIST CHRISTIAN movement simply to COUNTER the BS on the other side.

[Carlos Martillo]

119. If that leftist Chritian movement

has to support the progressive social agenda, few will regard it as Christian.

Very little of the progressive social agenda can be found in the Christian Bible; Christ was a very permissive Man with those topics.

[seriousstan]

14. It is difficult to see that they have a home in the Dem party when places

like here start Pope joke threads are started when he is laying in the hospital, possibly near death. Just a thought.

[Carlos Martillo]

116. The alliance with those determined

to eradicate Christianity from the public sphere isn't helping, either.

[Demeter]

23. In a Word, Yes

Take Tom Monaghan (please!)

The ex-owner of Domino's Pizza believes that there is some special kind of Catholic law, and that the US should follow it, so he's spending his millions creating a law school to teach this "Creationism" alternative to Constitutional law. Mind you, it has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus, and is heavily into Paul and the Old Testament. He's not unusual or alone. He's just more public and obnoxious (and wrong) than the average Catholic.

[saracat]

28. What? Catholics don't teach "creationsim'!

[Psephos]

74. In a word, no

I was taught evolution at my Catholic school, with no mention of creationism in science class.

In catechism (religion class), we were taught to wonder whether the world had a purpose, and if so, who might have given it that purpose. Sometimes I still wonder about that.

Most Catholics under the age of 60 look at Church dogma as a buffet table from which they can choose what to put on their plate, and what to leave for others.

I do not go to church, nor follow the teachings of The Church, in case that's important to you.

[saracat]

83. That is what I was saying. I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic

schools. I don't practice anymore either. But I do know we NEVER were taught creationism. One of my Nuns even told me the New Testament was a myth in its entirety. The OT was only to illustrate morals.

[Psephos]

84. Saracat, sounds like your nuns were the guitar-playing kind...

...just like mine. lol

Peace. :-)

[VegasWolf]

133. How long ago was that and did they also teach you that unless

you were catholic you went to limbo when you died.

[DenaliDemocrat]

143. That is not correct

Limbo is the place for unbaptized babies, as they could not enter Heaven since they still had orginal sin.


I don't know if the Church still believes that. I don't practice any more.

[JerseygirlCT]

109. But Creationism isn't a Catholic thing

Even the pope sees no problem with evolution. Catholics have never been required to swallow that biblical inerrancy stuff -- that's a purely (and recent) Protestant idea.

[alcuno]

124. Right! Belief in Genesis is not considered a deal breaker.

I was taught evolution in my Catholic high school.

[Paula Sims]

129. Actually, the Pope sees no problem with evolution (sort of)

Check out http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/whatsaid.htm for a fairly good summary.

Anyway, IIRC, this Pope said that the theory of evolution is the "how" things came to be and the Bible is the "who". I am a practicing Byzantine Rite Catholic (note: there are 7 divisions of the Catholic church, Roman Catholicism is one, Byzantine Rite is another) and that is how I was taught about the Creation of the Earth.

Besides, does anyone know HOW MUCH of Darwin's Evolution of the species is actually devoted to the man/ape issue? Again, IIRC, it was only a minuscule part (we're talking like a couple of paragraphs).

Paula

[henrik larssonisking]

38. ex cathedra

you have to realise that when the pope stated this, he gave it as his own opinion, therefore it wasnt church doctrine. When the pope sits astride St. Peters throne and speaks then that is church law. Theres a lot of leeway between his opinion and when he speaks from the throne. Happy to help out.

[Mr_Spock]

92. "A lot of leeway"? ...as in create empire and destroy humanity?

If starting an immoral war based on deliberately exaggerated and cherry picked information (basically lies) due to one man's paranoia isn't a reason take the Pope's opinion seriously, then I don't know what is. It was the most important thing he has ever said - and it was mostly ignored by our immoral leaders (who claim to be good Christians????).

Have you seen this web-page? http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=8023 - it that doesn't give you reason to pause, nothing will...

[VegasWolf]

134. Hope you realize why the myth of ex cathedra was created, i.e.

to keep insane popes from espousing church doctrine.

[dansolo]

89. The Pope called Bush's war immoral

Sorry, but how can I take any person who calims to be a devout Catholic who willing endorses Bush's actions, when they were denounced by the Pope himself? Do these people place Bush above the Pope? If only the MSM would put as much emphasis on the Pope's comments on war as much as on his comments about abortion.

[WI_DEM]

3. post election polls are notoriously inaccurate

there is a bandwagon effect with some people. So I'm not sure how valid it is.

[CatWoman]

4. Damn, for someone with the lowest approval ratings

for a "reelected" president in history, * sure has a lot of "support".

[daleo]

108. I agree. People shouldn't invest too much in this report. n/t

[One_Life_To_Give]

6. NSS

Like this is a surprise?

[DUgosh]

8. The Priest at our Texas Parish

and probably many others, informed us who we had to vote for. Threatened the sheeples with eternal damnation if they voted for "any other" murderous candidate but the "anti-abortion" one. I reported him to the archdiocese but it made no difference at all. They could not understand why I would possibly be dismayed.

[alcuno]

18. Catholics in blue states voted for Kerry and Catholics in red states

voted for *. I've looked at the "exit polls" and it's real simple.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

24. As someone raised Catholic in a blue state

it sure makes sense to me too. Although Catholics have definitely been trending conservative in general.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

42. I agree.

Catholics really aren't a legitimate "voting block."

[alcuno]

75. They don't call us "cafeteria Catholics" for nothing.

It's the tenants of our faith that bind us, not all this noise going on.

[gademocrat7]

122. I am a Catholic in a red state

and have never voted for any republican.

[alcuno]

132. Welcome. Mine was an overstatement.

It's just that when you look at the majorities for Catholic votes, they flip by red state/blue state.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

26. Time...

To change parishes.

[UrbScotty]

9. Not this one (nt)

[durablend]

36. Not this one either n/t

[fudge stripe cookays]

10. My cousin did.

The man is a decorated WWII veteran.

But he won't vote for a candidate who favors choice. I asked him HOW the issue could possible matter to him THAT MUCH, considering he was the wrong sex to have to worry about an unplanned pregnancy, and that he was way too old for it to matter to him anyway.

Didn't get a reply.

I used to respect him for his service. Now I have nothing but disgust for him and the millions of old white men making my health care choices for me.

Asshole.

Fuck you, Bob.
FSC

[Kolesar]

11. Now that the University of Akron study is out

God is going to punish them and kill their Pope.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robcon]

15. The idea that the "Catholic vote" is up for grabs is nonsense, IMO

Catholics do not vote as a bloc. Italians, Polish and Irish Catholics are very assimilated, and tend to vote as their geographic location would suggest... blue/red - urban/suburban, etc. They tend to think of themselves by their ethnic background (which is not a good indicator of voting intention, IMO) not with their co-religionists.

Hispanic Catholics - Mexican-Americans, Puerto Ricans, Cuban-Americans, Dominicans (big group in NY) tend to vote more democratic than other Catholics, IMO (less so for Cubans than other Hispanics.)

I think this is a phony issue... combining unlike with unlike, and calling it a voting bloc.

edit parenthetical comment

[JI7]

20. interesting is Kerry improved among Cuban American voters

from previous Democrats but he lost a bit among more traditional Democratic voters like mexican americans in the southwest.

i think a big reason for this is because of the republican reaching out to voters in churches. i didn't take it too seriously and many others didn't either. but these things work. and it hurt Kerry in some places. but this is what they did in places like new mexico and arizona.

the reason Kerry did well among Cuban Americans is because he got a lot of young cuban american support . he did best among younger voters and in Florida where he did heavy campaigning it helped him get the younger cuban americans also.

[saracat]

29. Absolutely right on.

[F33040]

16. I think most people of faith

whatever faith, voted for Bush. Like 64%.

[Catherine Vincent]

68. I should have known this comment was suspect.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=164356

[Laurab]

70. Thanks, as a person of "faith"

I was just going to argue with the idiot.

I refer to myself as a "recovering Catholic" - I was raised Catholic, but I agree it cannot be considered a "voting bloc". Never was my vote influenced by my church (when I was a member).

My son, a 22 y/o practicing Catholic, and his father, my ex, a lifelong practicing Catholic, both voted for Kerry. I don't believe that many members of the church follow anyone blindly, as they do in the fundie churches.

[Catherine Vincent]

79. My complaint was that the tombstoned idiot implied that

people with faith would'nt vote Kerry.

[mitchum]

88. Say hello to Jesus

[JI7]

17. what do you think explains Kerry doing better among Protestants ?

Bush lost 10 percent of Protestants from 2000.

it's especially interesting since Kerry is Catholic.

i'm thinking it could be a split based on cultural views. it's no longer just about being catholic or protestant but those who are more liberal on things like abortion , gay rights and other things will vote for the candidate that best represents that view rather than voting along religious lines. the same with catholics who voted on issues rather than common religion.

perhaps Kerry (and Democrats in the future) should have campaigned among religions which are not traditionally Democratic. in close elections if we can even get a few to switch over it can help us.

this is why republicans also reached out to conservative jews and muslims based on gay marriage and abortion issue. most of them will never vote republican but getting a few will help. add that to their reachout among black and latino voters based on the gay marriage thing and it does add up.

[AP]

21. That Catholic Bishop in Denver really worked hard for Bush.

He got a lot of press and a lot of attention. I think he had two opinion pieces in the NYTimes (so the assist goes to the Times).

Having said that, 53:47 in a year when Bush won 52:48 (?) really isn't that big of a deal.

Catholics vote like the rest of the population. OK. Not bad for people who consider themselves religious and go to church and expose themselves to conservative theology once a week in most churches.

Where Kerry really lost wasn't Catholic voters. It was women. White women. In the suburbs. Bush scared their knickers off, while dropping the word "love" at the oddest moments. Bush loves women and wants to protect them. Democrats didn't have a counter strategy for that.

[truthpusher]

32. Bishop Sheridan of the Colorado Springs Archdiocese....

...He is in charge of the Diocese that ran my daughters (former) Catholic School. We have since moved her to public. Sheridan was a big motivator for the move. The stupid thing is Bush was going to win anyway! It's Colorado Springs for Christs sake! Just goes to show you that these guys are major a-holes.

[DainBramaged]

22. Stupid, ignorant and scared by the Church, period

Bush is as anti-Catholic as the Thuglies are anti Muslim.

[Kikosexy2]

25. No wonder...

why I left Catholicism a long time ago.

[saracat]

27. I think this poll is BS.

[Megahurtz]

30. They've been duped.

good con job.

[Merlin]

31. Can anybocy say "ABORTION" ?

We can bitch an moan all we want, but until we work on getting these folks back, this is only going to get worse.

There are ways to address their concerns on abortion. But I've found that few here on DU care to discuss the issue rationally.

[henrik larssonisking]

34. two issues abortion and gay marraige

until we address the wide gulf between the two sides, no catholic who follows the doctrine of the church will be comfortable voting dem. Its a fact that the church is going more conservative in the US, and when the holy father passes the next pope will probuably be a conservative.

[Ripley]

35. Are you calling me Irrational?

Because I support abortions being available to women. And I will not give in to your Catholic doctrine that says it should be illegal.

I am not Catholic. Why should I, a Free person living in a Free country that considers itself a Democracy, bow down to the Theocratic doctrine?

You have every right I suppose to excommunicate or whatever to your church members who agree with the allowance of Freedom of Choice. But you most certainly do not have a right to extend your Catholicism onto me anymore than my Southern Baptist neighbors have a right to extend their religion onto me.

[henrik larssonisking]

37. bingo

and by that standard you have to realise that you no more have a right to force your southern baptist or catholic neighbours to believe the same as you do, living in a free country they have the right to work and vote to get laws changed that mirror their beliefs. I think this is the problem, many people are happy to force people with deep religious beliefs to go against those beliefs, but woe betide if the religious person trys to do the same.

not trying to start a fight, just a few observations.

[Ripley]

49. Big difference is MY BODY.

Your Catholic doctrine is trying to determine how I live the next 9 months of MY LIFE. You have no right to do that! Your determination to force women into unwanted pregnancies is a sick and disgusting layout of misogyny in practice and the Church's control over women.

Get off my back. I have never encouraged anyone to have an abortion, but was damn glad I was there as a friend and sister to those who had one. Their lives are great now and some even *gasp* went on to have children and enjoy them. So Back Off.

[henrik larssonisking]

52. and heres the big difference

catholics believe that you have a child inside of your womb, therefore society has a role in protecting that child. Thats the wide gulf between the two sides, and i dont think its a gap we can bridge.

[Ripley]

53. Let's talk about other Catholic stances.

Birth control is completely illegal right? None, whatsoever should be used.

Do you believe women should be pregnant every time they have sexual intercourse?

[henrik larssonisking]

57. the rythymn method :)

all kidding aside, birth control is a contentious issue in the church, even the most conservative parishes nowadays turn a blind eye to it, most people who do use it dont see it as a sin anymore, but theres a huge difference between this and abortion. Remember to the religious abortion is the killing of a child, and as ive said its a gap that you cant bridge, especially with the technology of today showing better pics of the baby in the womb.

[Ripley]

65. How about the pics of boys in distress after Priest rape?

Is that discussed as well? And if you deny this, you are denying thousands of cases of rapes by Catholic priests.

I think they stand on shaky moral ground to tell WOMEN what to do with their bodies.

And if you think the rythm method works, meet your neighbor with 5-10 kids.

The blind eye of your religion is not MY problem, since I am not Catholic. Stop trying to enforce your religion upon others who don't want it.

[henrik larssonisking]

67. priest molesters should be punished

i have no stand with them, but as ive already stated that when it comes to abortion the catholic church sees it as murder of an innocent child, therefore people who follow the doctrine are of course going to fight it. Also remember that a lot of catholics do have a lot of kids, that is their right and their belief. Both my parents are from large families, mother was one of 17, father one of 14. As to telling women what to do with their bodies once again the church sees a child in the womb, and as ive said its a gap that i dont think can be bridged.

[Ripley]

71. Let me try to bridge it for you.

You have a right to be Catholic and believe in what you believe.

America is a country founded on Freedom. Our Constitution is not written in the name of the Vatican. Catholics are welcome, Jews are welcome, sometimes Muslims and Agnostics are welcome (since HS).

John Kerry is a practicing Catholic from what I understand. He was an altar boy in his church growing up. Yet he managed to understand that Faith (in whatever form one believes in) is an individual practice and not one to be thrust upon others in a Free Country practicting Democracy like America used to be.

So where is the bridge-building from YOUR side? I acknowledge your religious viewpoint, but I don't see you giving any leeway on your side that non-Catholic women have differing viewpoints than you.

[henrik larssonisking]

73. ill try to honestly answer your question

you say that religious beliefs are a personal thing, and to that i agree, but there is also a societal dimension to religious beliefs, people vote and fight for stuff they believe in, some of those people base this on their religion, others on their own morality. Do i suddenly cast of my faith when i enter the voting booth, no. Thats the problem, you have a different belief when it comes to abortion than i do, i am never going to be able to convince you, nor you me. Now you believe that you have the choice to do whatever you want with your body and thats fine, but many people dont see the baby in your womb as your body, they see it as a child, that is the gap that i dont think we can bridge. You see apples and i see oranges. Hope this helps clarify what i was getting at. thanks :)

[Ripley]

78. My body is not an orchard.

I am a fully developed human being, a female Earthling, living in a Free country and I demand full control over my body from now until the day I am cremated.

Your consistent delusion that you have some bridge to cross with pregnant women is almost funny, but not, because a lot of poor women will pay for your Theocratic control over women.

[henrik larssonisking]

80. i guess the discussion of the differences

dosent matter, you have your point of view, others have theirs, as to delusions, not sure what you mean, but remember that there is a valid viewpoint that differs from yours. I was just trying to explain a different viewpoint, but i guess im noodling.

[Ripley]

85. Are you a Man?

I will never know.

[Merlin]

91. You certainly ARE irrational! But you are oh so typical.

Like most screaming, flaming, fingers-in-the-ears, radical liberal feminists you can think of nothing more to do than to shout down anybody who even mentions the idea of being reasonable about the subject of abortions.

To you--and the gazillions like you on this board and out in liberal land--there can be no rational discussion. The subject is off limits. Period.

Just listen to yourself:

Anybody who brings it up is "on your back."
I'm trying to "force" my "Catholic doctrine" on you.
I'm determined to "force women into unwanted pregnancies..."

Yadayadayadayadayada...

It's so predictable it's nauseating.

[DemBones DemBones]

99. Yes, and so the Republicans win. nt

[AngryOldDem]

140. And will continue to win n/t

[AngryOldDem]

141. Live your life

Just live it responsibly.

The subtext of all these discussions here is abortion is just another acceptable means of birth control. It is not; it should not be.

And if you're not Catholic, Catholic teaching should mean nothing to you, and you are most welcome to ignore it.

[Southern Dem 2005]

142. I have to agree that

it is arguable that once you get pregnant you can be forced to keep the child, at least once you reach a certain point in the pregnancy. I know most places do not allow late term abortions. Not saying I think you should or should not be able to have an abortion--I'm just making the point that you have to acknowledge the pro-life argument (that you have a human inside you, etc.) is one a lot of people approve of.

[HockeyMom]

55. the Pill

How many of these prolife Catholics (Abortion issue for Bush)DON'T follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, which says Birth Control is EVIL. The Pill kills fertilized eggs and even CONDOMS goes against "God's Will." "GOD decides how many children you have, NOT YOU." Go to Mass. COUNT how many families there have more than 2 or TOPS 3 children. INFERTILE?

I spend 12 years in Catholic school. Parted company with them as a teenager on the birth control/abortion issue.

[henrik larssonisking]

56. depends on the parish i guess

most in my parish had tonnes of kids, more babies than open day at babys r us, i think the church in the US is very liberal compared to the rest of the prelates and parishes in the church.

[TomClash]

60. we went to safe, rare and legal

and we should stay there.

[truthpusher]

62. Can anybody say "Spellcheck"

:spank:

[abandon_ship]

76. european/canadian spellings

[grace0418]

33. Yet another reason why I am no longer Catholic

What a sad commentary on a church that is supposed to follow Christ's teachings.

[karynnj]

40. Abortion

After the election, I was talking to my 17 yr old who is very seriously interested in theology. During the lead up to the election, much of the discussion on the religion boards she frequents was on the candidates. Her take was that some people on the Catholic boards were more disturbed that Kerry said he BELIEVED that life started at conception, but he felt that he could not legislate based on his religious believes. The problem is that some of the people equate believe with "know" rather than "accept as an article of faith". (Logically and definitionally untrue)


They therefore basically came to the conclusion that if he "knows" there is a life and okays killing it, he's immoral. Thus a candidate I considered an unusually decent politician was to a subset of people on this board completely unacceptable. (Somehow killing over 100,000 Iraqi civilians counts less - so they could vote for GWB)

[henrik larssonisking]

43. great point

i gotta say that one struck me too, i was very uncomfortable when he said it. I have no beef with someone who dosent believe life begins until the moment of birth being pro choice, but if like me you believe that life begins at conception then theres a whole nother bunch of questions.

[karynnj]

51. Maybe if he dealt with legal/ illegal

I know the mantra is now rare, legal and safe. Maybe if the question were whether the abortions THAT WILL OCCUR ANY WAY should be safe and legal or illegal, thus possibly unsafe. With the other question of whether you want doctors who opt to do abortions to prevent woman from being butchered should be prosecuted.

I think that Kerry really did have more of a problem with abortion because he really is to some degree religious. I do think he should have addressed in terms of what the consequences of making it illegal would be.

Before my daughter explained it, I absolutely did not see it though and drove her nuts explaining Kerry's antiwar heroism. (She did prefer Kerry to Bush, which is good as she is going to college in MA next year.)

[WI Independent]

45. I agree...

The statement sounded a bit wishy-washy to me when I heard it. I know what he was trying to say but it came across more as "I am a politician that doesn't want to alienate the Catholic voters OR the pro-choice voters". Tough position... I'm not sure how he could have said it and have it NOT sound like that to a lot of people.

[Paul Dlugokencky]

50. Good Man, Bad Candidate?

I think that Kerry is a good man who sometimes is not a good candidate. It is good to have multi-dimensional thoughts, but a good candidate needs to explain these things simply. Not easy to do! Otherwise, we'd all be doing it, no?

I took it this way: Kerry was acknowledging the fact that no one religion is supposed to rule us all, and that despite how he felt about it, he was not going to force his religion's doctrine on the nation.

The fact is that abortions are going to take place whether legal or not. The goal should be to keep them rare, but safe and legal. The abortion rate went down under Clinton. It has gone up under Bush. Proclamations of faith or law doesn't impact it as much as sound social and economic policy.

[Carlos Martillo]

118. Kerry's comments were troubling...

To say that he believed a life was being taken by an abortion, yet he felt that this was a private matter?

Imagine someone saying they were executing Hispanics in Morristown, and that if you elected me mayor of Morristown (or governor of NJ, or prez of the US), I would ignore that situation because I didn't believe it was my place to address it.

Wierd, huh?

[DrZeeLit]

44. Yep...for my Catholic mailperson, it was ONLY abortion. She said so.

And I was.... well, my jaw dropped and then, I just shut my mouth. She's older and she's heard it all and all she can see is dead babies in dumpsters. I know, I know.... that's the graphic and that's the mindset. They won't listen at all, and they won't get educated.

Religion reall is the opiate of the masses.

[henrik larssonisking]

47. that picture is just too unnatural

gotta be something in gods laws that forbids it, im gonna have nightmares mate.

[hollowdweller]

54. What happened to the Catholic Church? As a kid in the 60's it always

seemed to me the Catholic Church was the voice of morality. Many were high profile in their oppostion to Vietnam war. They stood up for the poor and disposessed. Growing up in a fundamentalist church, once I started reading the bible I realized Catholics seemed to embody the actual message of Jesus way more than the church I went to.

Now the Catholic church and it's members stand with a warmonger who is the exact opposite of what I always believed that they stood for. And for what? Abortion? Bush has been in there 4 years. His daddy 4 years. Reagan 8 years. Tell me what any of those did to ban abortion? They just paid lip service to it. That's all. Everything they actually DID in office is opposite of church teaching. Then the church actually shielded child molesters and perverts?

Talking about washing the outside of the cup and the inside being filthy.

[Dcitizen]

98. None of them represent Roman Church.

Who can grant permission to Catholists, priests against Holy Father's will? Too bad, some carry the label and rank of Catholics with them.

[TomClash]

59. "Peace-loving Papists"

"The pro-birth movement" - and once you're born - screw you!

Meanwhile, Catholics in Northern Ireland are sold down the river by Shrub and his Toy Poodle.

[henrik larssonisking]

61. funnily thats a very sectarian comment you made there

papist is a derogatory term used by the protestants.

[TomClash]

63. I know

but I'm a liberal Catholic, though I'm very fond of some Methodists and Lutherans (non-St. Louis Synod). :-)

[henrik larssonisking]

64. lol well nice one from this conservative

catholic, wasnt sure if you understood the usage of the word. :)

[roguevalley]

66. I don't care what religion you were if you voted for *, until the idiots

in our country get a chance to suffer, and I mean really suffer with loss of homes, jobs and whatever on a massive scale, they will NEVER
see the truth. Until they get gored and gored good and it is clear that being a 'religious' man doesn't mean dick to *, they won't get it. There are HUGE obligations to others in being a Christian if you do it right and when trauma comes and * just shrugs, they will get it only then.

[mitchum]

90. Also used by we LAPSED protestants...

but I usually prefer the phrase "papist voodoo"

[4MoreYearsOfHell]

69. The Catholics I know who voted for *

all used abortion as a crutch...I am Catholic, and do not see it as the defining issue...Many that I know are single-issue morans...

Or just greedy "gotta have tax cut" idiots who love to watch bunnypants strut around in a flight suit on Fox...

One guy I know (Catholic) says that he is not worried about a looming peak oil situation because he saw a documentary a while back about how we are going to be powered by magnets, because of how UFO's move in the sky...True (sigh)

Some others truly believe in trickle-on economics...

Most are avid Rush fans...

[abandon_ship]

77. mormons?

[Petrushka]

81. According to one woman . . .

. . . I overheard talking about what her priest and bishop had drummed into her head, there was no question she was going to vote for Bush. It was her duty to vote for Bush. It would be a sin to not vote for Bush because--in addition to the abortion and gay-marriage issues--Kerry was divorced and should have been excommunicated, shouldn't be allowed to take Communion . . . etc.!

[ignatius 2]

82. The Pope essentially gave Bush his blessings when a few months prior

to the election he reminded the flock of the horrors of hell and damnation against abortioners.

Nevermind the fact that Bush and his vile henchman are responsible for the death of 1400 troops, over 100,000 Iraqis, mostly women and children, the destruction of cities and thousands upon thousands wounded. Nevermind the fact that the Pope condemned this sham of a war from the very be ginning.

I wonder what the Bush Mafia offered this man to sell out his religion?

[autorank]

86. You're right. These people don't have the nerve to endorse their

death cult of global war and eco-catastrophes. They need to do it indirectly by opposing abortion which, in turn, gets the death cult Republicans elected. They had better hope that there isn't a God because if there is, there will be a terrible penance to pay for all of these faux moralists.

[mitchum]

87. Preist-ridden fascists and simpletons

Maybe the Virgin Mary appeared on a potato chip and told them to vote GOP?

[Dcitizen]

93. Abortion is personal choice, but pulling trigger is not.

Why so proud to reject Holy Father's will, and put millions of human lives at extreme risks and Roman Church in danger forever.

World-best known seer Maria Esperanza of Venezuela also called this "the greatest mistake".
http://www.spiritdaily.org/Prophecy-seers/Esperanza/esperanzaemergency.htm

[sampsonblk]

94. Kerry didn't present any real alternative

As usual, the Repubs used abortion to try to peel off catholic voters. What alternative did Kerry present?

He could have mentioned the immoral (and illegal) invasion of Iraq. He could have mentioned the human rights abuses that continue as we speak. He could have mentioned that the International Red Cross is currently having to "negotiate" with the Bush admin each time it wants access to prisoners we are holding.

There was plenty of ammo available. No question.

[Dcitizen]

100. He did very best on Iraq and won big first debate. n/t

[agincourt]

95. Smirk couldn't get the pope to roll for him,

but a lot of US bishops campaigned for Bush over the pediophile lawsuit limits that are part of the GOPees tort reform.

[Dcitizen]

101. Bishops acted alone.

Why didnt they tell the mass goers where the river gamble boats were
the red dominated, or they want a share of that?

[AuntiBush]

102. It's true in my Neck of the Woods!

I grew-up w/tons of Catholics; strick, Italian, Polish, you name it, and the most devout and elderly all voted "AGAINST BUSH" and FOR "KERRY." When I ask why, thinking about pro-life, etc., I get the same two answers...

1. I really like Kerry. He's smart and I hate Bush.

2. Bush is evil.

Repeatedly and astounding.

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[98geoduck]

107. Pedophile Priests for Bush, not surprising. Tort reform for all those

Priests spreading their love to all the children.

PS I gave up the Catholic/Christian theology at the age of 8 when I started to ask why? And No, I wasn't molested, but our priest was a drunken ornery old bastard and wouldn't have doubted he went out of bounds.

[JerseygirlCT]

110. I saw a lot of that up here

Surprised me, truly, because my Catholic upbringing was quite liberal. And if (Catholic) people understood how they are thought of by many of these very conservative Protestants they've jumped in bed with...

[JerseygirlCT]

111. Question for those still involved in the RCC

Are you finding your parishes slanting more conservative these days?

I know that's what has been happening at the parish my parents attend -- the one I grew up in. The pastor we'd had forever was forced to retire (age limits and all that, besides the bishop hated him b/c he was a maverick), and his replacement is far more conservative. It's really changing the face of worship there, and the community.

I'm just wondering whether this is going on all over?

[henrik larssonisking]

123. truthfully, yes

the parish i attend here is pretty conservative, though its still a lot more liberal than the parish i used to belong to. I think a big problem is that the more liberal a parish gets the more for want of a better word watered down the religious message gets. Not sure if i explained that all that well. The church is getting more conservative, i think its a reaction to what many parishoners see as attacks on the faith throughout society. Its very much a tribal thing, for example in countries where catholics are a minority and there is sectarianism, the church tends to be a rallying point for the community and everyone starts to man the barricades.

[JerseygirlCT]

125. Not sure I understand the "watered down message" part

the parish I grew up in instilled a strong sense of social justice and caring for all of our brothers and sisters. What I'm hearing now is a lot of concern about "nots" -- gay marriage, abortion -- and a lot of concern about surface stuff (back to genuflecting, etc.). (In terms that would be used in my current Episcopal church, the RCC church I was raised in would have been very "low church", lol)

Growing up, church was a warm, relaxed, artistic and very community-oriented place. It seems the new marching orders are for more structure and more hierarchy.

I don't know... for me, the message comes through much more strongly when less attention is paid to the hierarchy.

Are you feeling that things became so unrestricted as to lose meaning?

[henrik larssonisking]

126. if i understand you then yes

i think what i was trying to say was that the church was becoming more take what you want leave the rest, so i think that a lot of people find the non adherence to doctrine disturbing. People have to remember that the catholic church is a heirarchial institution, and a lot of the parishes i think are starting to go back to the more structured past. One of the things ive always loved was that no matter what language the mass is in, you can follow it because its set out. I think when the holy father passes the church is going to become a lot more conservative and there may even be a schism, but this may be a good thing, as it will allow people to find their place with their faith.

[JerseygirlCT]

127. I'd agree that finding their place is a good thing

If that requires schism, so be it. (This coming from the now Episcopalian, so obviously, I've performed my personal schism already).

I found it interesting to hear my mom speak with some sadness and concern about the new pastor at their church and also about the possibility of the new pope taking things even more hard right. She's praying for another John XXIII, herself.

Thanks for the conversation -- it's been interesting.

[henrik larssonisking]

151. no problem, i guess im probuably the only

conservative catholic on the boards, so its always interesting to get other peoples viewpoints. :)

[Freedomist]

112. Kerry lost Zel Miller type Catholic Democrats

You can't vote against forty weapons systems and vote to run away from every battle and be perceived as able to win a war or be believed when you call yourself a hawk. The Democratic party has driven itself off an ultra left cliff in recent years compared to where it used to be. I think it's got to reel itself back in in a real way if it hopes to regain power.

[Carlos Martillo]

113. Bush is more Catholic than Kerry.

Considering that most of the Hispanic immigration is not exactly liberal, this is an item that the Democratic Party must address.

While Democrats are more "progressive", they can't be dominated by those who hold those views. There is no place in the party for any dissenters from the progressive agenda.

[ElectroPrincess]

114. Not this practicing liberal Catholic. /eom

[Darth_Kitten]

120. Oh, another "poll"

I don't believe it. :D

[Califooyah Operative]

121. so divisive social issues worked....nt

[GOPBasher]

128. Catholics supported a man who destroys lives all over the world.

Sounds wonderful.

[IronLionZion]

130. this Catholic voted for Kerry

and so did the rest of my family

[GOPBasher]

155. I used to be Catholic.

I consider myself just non-denominational Christian now, but regardless of what religion I am, I would've voted for Kerry.

[merh]

137. Hey truthpusher, is that the same percentage that the weed

supposedly won the election with? :shrug: Is this a coincidence? You know about polls, you can't trust them!

[IndyPriest]

144. Yes, unfortunately. The number of Catholics who voted for

* equalled his margin of "victory." BUT, as we all know * did NOT win the election. His margin was fabricated. SO, before we jump to conclusions about how the Catholics ACTUALLY voted, we need a clean examination of the election. The problem of trying to figure out WHY the Catholics voted is like trying to figure out WHY the country is "going red." Before we go down that road, let's first figure out if it's true.

None of this takes anything away from all the comments above that reveal the right-tilt of the clergy, really the bishops. But it does raise the question of whether regular Catholics voted the way their clergy told them to.

[merh]

146. Sadly, many I know voted the way the bishops wanted them to

vote. One of my closest friends voted for the weed because he was against abortion. She used to be the most liberal person I knew, a civil rights activist and very intelligent. She was a non-catholic and converted within the last 5 years and has been involved in all of the church activities that "promote a deeper understanding" of our role as catholics in the community. Arise weekends, cursiollos, ccd teacher, youth organizer, etc. She drank the kool aide and believes that the weed is a better christian. That is is concerned with family values, that our world is self-destructing because we have no morals or values and because there is no prayer in public schools.

I have not spoken to her since Sept or October 2004, before the election. Bush is such a uniter.

[IndyPriest]

147. If she's smart, she can understand that abortions were down

40% under Clinton (and would have continued going down under Kerry) and are up under *. Policies matter. Talk is cheap. She can get that.

[merh]

148. That is what is so sad. She refuses to try to discover the truth.

She is one of the most intelligent people I know and up until last year, the most compassionate and wise person I knew. Then, all of the sudden, she stopped wanting to know the "truth". It is as if trying to find out the truth is questioning her faith and therefore she would be a non-believer and would violate her faith. It is the age old crisis, is practicing a religion really living one's faith? :shrug:

The number of my friends and family that don't want to know the truth is frightening. It is safer to be uneducated, to know the truth is too frightening. Heck, one of my friends admitted that they didn't want to know the truth, the know how destructive politics and politicans can be and they just don't want to deal with it. :cry:

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[henrik larssonisking]

152. taxi for MR. Guns

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[henrik larssonisking]

157. i will dignify your attack with ignoring your stupidity.

[leesa]

145. Exactly the opposite of the poll published a week or two ago.

[flyarm]

149. not this catholic..no way no how!!! i hate murderers!!

this catholic was a delegate for kerry to the national convention and worked diligently on Kerry's campaign , as did many of my catholic friends!! they are full of crap!

fly

[Nightwing]

153. AMEN!! I too am a "Catholic for Kerry"

I'm catholic and have been so since birth. No way in hell would I ever support a Republican of any kind, at any time, at any place.
I worked all last year through the election to insure John Kerry would win, I donated money and time to the campaign because I wanted * out of office as much as the next guy.

But I have to say I find it comical when Southern Baptists or any other faith for that matter start "explaining" the catholic faith to someone. I am smart enough to know that I know some about a lot of faiths but not enough to consider myself an "expert" on it. I know when to keep my mouth shut if someone were to ask me to explain the faith of another religion.

In order to truly understand the faith of any church you must be a member of that faith or you don't know enough about it to rationally and logically explain it. I respect every individuals right to believe what they wish, including those that are atheists. All I ask is please respect mine in return.

[GetTheRightVote]

156. Does not say to much for the Catholics does it

:kick: