Author Now Suspects 'Deep Throat' Was -- Drumroll, Please -- George H.W. *

[Middle Finger Bush]

Author Now Suspects 'Deep Throat' Was -- Drumroll, Please -- George H.W. Bush
By E&P Staff

Published: February 04, 2005 3:05 PM ET

NEW YORK The author of the 1993 biography of Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, “Deep Truth,” today named George H.W. Bush the new chief suspect as famed Watergate source Deep Throat.

The “outing” was timed to the opening of the two reporters’ Watergate archives at the University of Texas.

The author of several books for major publishers, Adrian Havill says his claim is based on recent events and his own research at the the National Archives. He announced the “finding” in a letter posted at the Romenesko site at the Poynter Institute.

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000789447

[LisaM]

1. They're archiving their materials at UT? Okay, that's strange

I don't know quite what to make of this, but he is at least making the bones of a case.

[queeg]

49. UT paying $$$$ to make it happen

[AuntiBush]

61. They are - it was on MSNBC tonight!

On Keith Olbermann's show. He claims he knows but he's not telling, yet. Various names came-up, but nothing on the Chimp... he hinted it might be Pat Buchanan??

[Pirate Smile]

2. On Wolf Blitzer's show today, Woodward said when we find out who it

is it will be obvious why the person has refused to release them from their promise of keeping his name a secret.

[aquart]

26. "WHEN" we find out? Not "if"????

[Pirate Smile]

31. When the person dies, they will tell us who it was. Their death will

release them from the promise.

[truthpusher]

93. Can't wait to find out!

;)

[Just Me]

123. Do you believe it's GHWB?

For some reason, I find that incredible.

Whomever it is,...I wonder if we'll actually get a clue about the real motivation.

[truthpusher]

125. I have no clue actually - but, If it is Bush, it wouldn't surprise me.

[BrendaStarr]

160. Most likely DT is Fred Fielding who was on the 9/11 commission

Long history of investigating on this.

Some say John Dean can't figure it out because Fielding was his underling and therefore actually betrayed Dean too.

Fielding is very much a neo con.

Helped cover the Bushies incompetency in the investigation of 9/11.

[Renew Deal]

162. Unless Woodward dies first

:tinfoilhat:

[queeg]

48. its Ford.

[IndianaGreen]

137. Ford is an idiot!

and he was not an insider. Deep Throat knew a lot about what the Justice Department was doing in terms of their investigation, and about the finances of CREEP. I doubt that Poppy Bush was privy to some of that stuff. My chief suspect has always been Jeb Magruder.

[hector459]

156. Kissinger loved to gossip. Barbara Wawa even said it.

Did he drink scotch? Well, who didn't drink scotch?

[librechik]

3. duh

[EST]

4. Wouldn't surprise me...

GHWB has been involved in underhanded schemes and assinations, including character, career and bloody, for more than forty years,now.

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. But isn't he a peach for showing us the blueprint to get at GW II?

[sarcasmo]

98. W41 is stone cold CIA killer always has been.

[EST]

114. Yep. As well as all the other derogatory, unethical epithets

one could toss his way. It's high time that bunch of dirt bags was outed and exposed as the horrid blood suckers on society they have been for at least the last hundred years.
We, as a society have to throw off the yoke of these creeps (the whole gang from top to bottom) and start over with some honest folks..

[Robert Oak]

5. if that's true how come Bush Sr. doesn't out his own son?

he's way more corrupt than Nixon ever was.

[LisaM]

7. If GHW "outed" Nixon it was out of vengeance

To my knowledge, he isn't seeking revenge against his son for anything.

I can't quite see GHW skulking around a parking garage, but I could see his finding someone to do it FOR him.

[Lorien]

28. Nixon was a liberal compared to GWB n/t

[AuntiBush]

69. Is this it?

On my side, we can't for the life of us figure out "why" some "one" has not come forward to end this adm's craziness. Learned something a long time ago; when "you" know things are "majorly" wrong, most do as well.

It's reasonable to presume if * is as horrific as we knew * to be, wouldn't it be more probably than possible that other's are just as nervous. Just a thought.

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[AP]

74. This is true. Nixon was a whore for business, but not enough of

a whore.

He was willing to engage in imperialism abroad, but he wasn't willing to sacrifice middle class America for the profits of big business.

During his term, corporate profits were decreasing. They got rid of him, Carter got four years (during which he started the deregulation ball rolling) and then it was off to the races wth Reagain, Bush and Bush II.

Had Nixon remained in office, he would never have destroyed the middle class to the point that the left could no longer be viable.

Furthermore, it's obvious that Nixon was not sabotaged simply by the Democrats. Unless key Republicans were on board, it could never have happened.

[brainshrub]

167. Nixon was a far-left, pinko commie compared to W.

There is no W in Republican.

[Lisa]

43. "finding someone to do it FOR him" -- I just had the weirdest thought ...

You know all those theories speculating that CIA people sometimes have their families assisting them on assignments, as part of their "cover", or even running errands ... and that GHWB also engaged in this practice?

And there has been speculation on the web, by the right and left wing, that GHWB's kids, including his eldest son, "helped out" now and then -- which might account for why they have been unable/unwilling to account for all of George W's "missing time"? If being a National Guard pilot were part of the act, there'd be an extra reason to pull strings and get him that position despite his low test scores -- and if it were just one more thing his dad did for him, that might also explain why he could leave so easily (and why he doesn't seem to be that interested in flying unlike most fighter jocks). Plus if any of his dad's more militaristic pals wondered why he wasn't in Vietnam, GHWB could wink and hint that Georgie was doing some special things on the side "for his country" (regardless of whether that was true). We know that he worked for at least one CIA-related company (that summer job up in Alaska). Somehow I suspect that if he actually did errands for his dad, it would be really simple stuff that they figured he wouldn't screw up too badly -- delivering something, say.

Wouldn't it be funny if HE turned out to be the guy they met in that underground parking garage!

[Old and In the Way]

103. Here's a post on a thread about James Bath, the other pilot who was

DQ'd at the same time GWB was- Bath became a representitive of Saudi business interests in the US. Hmmmmmm. Anyway, here's a part of the story that has never really gotten a lot of exposure and expands on your comments:

-----------------------

Interesting that they both got put on inactive duty at the same time. I wonder why they ever let that document come out? I suspect that he's had quite a lucrative career because of what he knows abiout Dimson.

From: http://www.rense.com/general49/forget.htm (I know this is a Rense article, but the actual details were taken from a Newsweek article. And what is not said is that the people Bush worked for were ex-executives of Zapata Oil (in other words, CIA buddies of his dad).

Forget The Bush AWOL Story
From Ken at Brasscheck
2-12-4


Can anybody explain this one?

"Spring 1971:

Bush is hired by a Texas agricultural importer. He uses a National Guard F-102 to shuttle tropical plants from Florida." http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2004/02/02_400.h...

That sounds a little weird, doesn't it?

Some possibly relevant background

By 1971, Florida was already a thriving gateway to North America for cocaine traffickers.

"The flooding of the market with cocaine after 1968 represented a threat to the established black-market amphetamine interests. But the United States Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs, which in 1968 had from four to seven agents in its Miami office, increased its Miami staff to over thirty agents early in 1970-- and more were being trained." http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/...

Let's really think "Spring 1971" through. You know, carefully form a clear picture of what the words used to describe his activities actually mean...

Tropical plants. From Florida to Texas. On behalf of an agricultural importer. (What kind of business is that?) Agricultural imports implies volume like coffee, beef, corn. You know. Commodities.

Now just how many "tropical plants" do you think could young Bush could have carried per trip to his agricultural importer client in a F-102 fighter jet?

Strange story, isn't it?

The strangest thing is that it may even be literally true.

I wonder if those tropical plants were already conveniently in powered form...

Or is it more plausible that young Bush was transporting rare tropical vines and orchards in the cockpit of a F-102 fighter jet to make a few extra bucks by serving the thriving tropical plants market in Texas.

[yardwork]

59. Vengeance, or a desire to get rid of Nixon in order to take over himself

GHW Bush became head of the CIA after Watergate.

Carter was plagued with the same kind of terribly biased press that hounded Clinton. GHW Bush wanted to be president, but Reagan got the nomination in 1980 and Poppy shoved himself in as VP. Then Reagan almost died in an assassination attempt by an old family friend of the Bushes, Hinckley's, son. Reagan got reelected in 1984 while Poppy just built and built and built his power as VP.

Poppy made sure his sons got elected governor of two of the most populated states in the country, and now one of them is in his second term as president, with brother Jeb standing in the wings.

[dweller]

8. he was setting up his own place in office

dick was just a roadblock, like rayguns was.

dp

[Ouabache]

46. YES see my post about info in Kevin Phillips's book below

You are onto it. And GHWB was onto it very early in the 60's.

[EVDebs]

12. Robert Oak ! Nice to see you again (I'd recognize that Icon anywhere)

Check out my post at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1567562

I'm a Watergate buff of sorts and Woodward galls me. I like Bernstein much better.

[Robert Oak]

20. hi back

looks like the economics/labor activists are converging in DU.

Glad you're here!

[JerseygirlCT]

15. Competition?

[Carni]

24. Nixon ultimately withdrew from Vietnam

Bush didn't do what he did because he's an honest guy--he was doing what he did as payback because the gravy train was cut off.

[AuntiBush]

65. It strikes me as "Very Odd"

when I see those recent commericals with Bush Sr. & Clinton sitting together, as if in some sort of peace mission.

On Note: Rumored Clinton might be gravely ill. Now, this is coming from the Nat'l Enquirer. Consider the source, thou Nat'l Enq has broken some pretty amazing stories in recent times.

Clinton does not look good at all. Just a thought. Again, Keith Olbermann claims "he knows" who it is, but "he's not talking, yet!" Hinted at Pat Buchanan and someone he'll be interviewing tomorrow or on Monday's shows...

:kick: :kick:

[loritooker]

120. I had a very strange dream about Clinton about a month ago.

Now, I never dream about poiticians, and I don't think about Clinton in my waking life, BUT, in my dream there he was on a door step, several steps above me, I was on the sidewalk looking up at him. The skin of his forehead was all mottled brown! I came closer. The skin of his face was all pale and leathery-looking, slack and loose. I could almost feel the coldness of it. I wanted to talk to him about the election, but he just turned away from me. He didn't even want to acknowledge me, which I thought was odd from what I've heard about his engaging personality. He looked ill in flesh and spirit. I am no psychic, but my dream caused me to wonder if something's going on with him.

[Fovea]

78. To a BFEE Don

Nixon means--

Wage and price controls
The EPA
Reproachment with China
Engagement with the USSR

Sure, they liked arclight, but
Nixon was a domestic liberal, just like
Ike and the stimulus package
of the highway system.

The real question is--
Was Ford who Bush Pere would want in?
If not, who would he have tried to move
into the WH.

My money would have been more on Dole, as Bush's Houston Candiate.

[EVDebs]

168. What's a dead giveaway is how they had to get rid of Agnew so Ford

could be installed prior to the Watergate scandal. How fortunate.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gristy]

11. Sunday? What happens Sunday?

I'm a little slow today... And welcome to DU LAPD844! :hi:

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

18. Not sure about that

Olbermann had a tease that there would be an LA TImes story this SUnday on Deep Throat, but did not suggest that the identity of deep throat would be revealed. Did you hear something different?

[AuntiBush]

71. Just thought of that

You're right. One can't tell when Olbermann is kidding or not.

Read the description of "Deep Throat" here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/watergate/deept.htm

It's 1 of 2 reasons as to why this could surface now... good, or bad!?! Take your pick.

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

9. Olberman

Olberman said on his show tonight that there would be some breaking news regarding Deep THroat in the LA Times on Sunday. He might have been joking on some level though -- you can never tell with Olbermann.

GHWB as Deep Throat is an old theory that I've seen floated before. Pretty much anybody who was anybody in the Nixon Admin. has had their name floated at some point or another. Rumsfeld even had his name floated on that one.

[EVDebs]

17. Hummm. Maybe something to do with the JFK thing as Haldeman's

book "Ends of Power" alluded to. Poppy was doing things in the Caribbean and Texas with Zapata Oil if I'm not mistaken and his name showed up in FBI notes for questioning...por que ?

[notadmblnd]

40. laundering drug money to support the cuban rebels?

nt

[AuntiBush]

72. Follow the money... right?!?

DT gave the advise to "follow the money." Good point on laundering. Huh.

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[EVDebs]

116. Renata Adler's "In Search of the Real Nixon Scandal" Atlantic

Monthly Dec '76 shows us that the little footnote on 'Chilean investors' money returning via a Mexican bank to the Nixon coffers...as shown in "All The President's Men"...that wasn't followed up on. Why ? When the House Banking cmte tried things got shut down. Think, CIA money in Chile making its way home for what ? And did this happen during the original October Surprise of 1968 when the war could have been ended ... in order for Nixon to get SoVietNamese regime payoffs to keep it going ?

Campaign finance reform might begin with the CIA et al, huh ?

[mordarlar]

51. ghwb actually pointed out a man claiming he was going to kill Kennedy but

it was NOT Oswald. The talking points were the same as the ones that were eventually used for Oswald. Seems they decided on a different patsy after ghwb blabbed to the CIA.

edited to add... ghwb's home phone number was in the address book of the man who housed Oswald and his wife before the assassination.

[Old and In the Way]

54. That guy was Poppy's primary opponent when he ran for Congress

Does that sound like the Bush MO or what? A two-fer, in this case. Read FBI memo. He was very clear to document where he was on 11/22/63...supposed driving to Dallas from Tyler. I guess he had to stop and call the FBI to let them know. Apparently, J. Edgar made note of the fact that Poppy was a CIA operative...ooops.

[mordarlar]

60. There is an ocean of this stuff. It is literally blowing my mind that ...

they can keep it all straight. How in the hell do they do it? And not get caught? Why do we LET them? They KNOW the damage they are doing. It cannot be that they want the end, they KNOW what side of THAT they are on. It cannot be simply about money...at the rate they are destroying the planet money will make little differance. WTF!

[AuntiBush]

73. Information Overload on the Public.

Public Joes/Janes too busy to even watch news; read important info, hence the idiot box night after night. I had BIG opponents tell me if I went public w/something... quoting them "Go ahead, after two weeks you'll be old news..."

True. Can't say anymore, yet.

[mordarlar]

80. I'll be watching. I have paid attention for a while but just when...

i think there cannot POSSIBLY be more twists, turns and deaths :::pow:: another shows up. I am getting pretty worn out. : /

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

25. Kick

Hoping for more discussion. :-)

[hector459]

30. I say it was Pat Buchannan.

But what do I know?

[flyarm]

115. i agree..pat buchannan

or pat for ghb...was pat the carrier pigeon for ghb?? to take down nixon...do look up greg palasts story on globalization on the destruction of argentina by the bush cabal..yes including jeb boy...and enron..and those that think enron is bankrupt and not running anymore..surprise..it is operationg off shore mostly being run by haliburton now and they are still running the oil from argentina..now under new name!! the oil jeb and enron all but stole from argentina, after laoning way to much to argentina through the world bank ..and then calling the loan..thereby destroying the middle class of argentina..its like argentina was the test program for what was to become of us here in the usa!!

look it up ..greg palast ..globalization!! if you can get his cd on it..you will then see where we are heading , and by who!!

http://www.prosperityuk.com/prosperity/articles/argen.html


http://www.gregpalast.com/columns.cfm?subject_id=3&subject_name=Globalization



when you start studying .."globalization" and ownership societies, you will realize ..who will be owned!! not what you will own!
when you hear that talking point of bushes.."ownership society" run..do not walk.,.run from it!!
it begins by the very complacency of a society...argentina was wealthy...they were the test case for what they will be doing to each and every american middle class citizen..and it began 4 years ago and will come crashing down on you before you ever get it..unless you do the research and prepare your familes..or take to the streets..wake up america!!

http://projectcensored.org/publications/2004/21.html

fly

[pokercat999]

142. Hearing Woodward on TV the other night

I'd look for someone older than Mr B. Woodward seemed kinda surprised that Deep Throat was still alive, said something to the effect that some people live much longer than expected.

Oh yeah he also confirmed that it was definitely a man.

[cally]

41. Welcome to DU

I like your username.:-)

I just wish they'd let us know who "Deep Throat" was. I don't think it's GHWB but I don't have much more knowledge than most of you.

[AuntiBush]

76. Hate to admit but it makes perfect sense!

Imp Jr... makes sense. I pondered over Buchanan... even Kissinger. Description was always the same:

"he is a man and he is still living. Woodward noted that Deep Throat was a smoker and that he drank Scotch. "Aware of his own weaknesses, he readily conceded his flaws," the reporters wrote. "He was, incongruously, an incurable gossip, careful to label rumor for what it was, but fascinated by it. ... He could be rowdy, drink too much, overreach. He was not good at concealing his feelings, hardly ideal for a man in his position."

Repeat post: Just puzzled as to why now? It's either good for us, or the Imps! And out of Utah? That's certainly CRove country. Makes no sense. Who do they want to take down now... fear of a major reprisal?

[merh]

87. Smoke & mirrors!

Frenzy on watergate and poppy as deep throat will distract from the weed's many criminal acts and will make everyone think that they are a wonderful family, willing to risk life, reputation and party to do what is right for the nation! :puke:

Distraction and illusion. If he would turn in Nixon surely his boy would never do anything criminal. :puke:

[EVDebs]

10. You may want to look into Woodward's background in intelligence

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1567562

see the links in the above post and put Deep Throat into perspective since (now Sen.) Robert F. Bennett's revelation about what he told Woodward (as Bennett was with the Mullen & Co CIA front).

Deep Throat...just a literary 'device' to get information onto the record without attribution. Nowadays that could get you into trouble, as we've seen !

Besides, the CIA wanted to keep its hands in the Watergate fiasco hidden in all respects. But one thing should make readers curious: in GHWBush's testimony to Congress on his confirmation to CIA director, back then...didn't he testify that he was never previously employed by the CIA ? In fact, isn't that why Gerald Ford appointed this 'outsider' ?

[calimary]

13. Why that sneaky old bastard. Wouldn't surprise me.

Especially considering the details in this story - how bush wanted revenge when Nixon didn't provide the advancement he felt he deserved. These bushes are sneaky, petty, vindictive little jackals. Wouldn't surprise me AT ALL.

[LisaM]

16. And those peculiar letters GWH writes - they are quite odd

almost as strange as his 'diaries'. You know there's either not a grain of truth in them or more self-delusion than you might believe possible. This wouldn't surprise me in the least. But then NOTHING the Bushes do would surprise me now.

[DemoTex]

19. JFK, Iran-Contra, Watergate, Gulf War-1 and God-know what else ...

Why did Bu$h-2 have the Presidential papers of his father and Reagan sealed? You don't hide something unless it is a potentially devastating revelation. Too many secrets in this corrupt regime.

[Carni]

21. This would make a lot of sense

Nixon was ready to crack and God only knows what he would have revealed.

It also makes sense that Woodward was chosen since he is such a bush ass kisser now.

Isn't it interesting that HW bush was pretty much intstalled as the CIA director after Nixon resigned?

[LisaM]

23. Yes, maybe they wanted to control the message

and who better to choose?

[Carni]

27. I am thinking that Oliver Stone was pretty dead on

Here the man has been maligned for years for being so "conspiratorial" and it sounds like he knew something that we didn't know all along. I wonder HOW he knew?

[yardwork]

62. Oliver Stone put a lot of false and misleading stuff in his movie, BUT

that doesn't mean that there wasn't a conspiracy.

Personally, I'm a lot more interested in the RFK assassination. I think that's the one that deserves a lot more scrutiny, which it may be starting to get.

[SmokingJacket]

95. I agree about RFK -- never understood why it wasn't examined

more carefully. Assassination fatigue???

[EVDebs]

119. "Special Unit Senator" of LAPD, headed by a 'former' CIA guy...

[Occulus]

63. Oh, that's an easy one. Somebody went to him.

Someone on the inside; somebody Stone knew was on the inside, but didn't know how deep. That Somebody floated a 'theory' to Stone that was actually accurate, maybe, and then quietly disappears, never to be heard from again.

I'm picturing Somebody in a very relaxed setting, perhaps Stone's own living room, seated on leather sofas enjoying scotch on the rocks, quietly painting a picture of corruption at the highest levels of the American government, and then saying something like, "of course, this is all fantasy; a summer afternoon game of 'what if.'"

And then gently excusing himself, leaving Stone to ponder the signifigance of the information he's just been given. If we ask ourselves who Stone could possibly have known who would have been in a position to himself know of the corruption, we'll have a possible answer regarding who went to him.

But, this is all fantasy; a late-night game of 'what if.' ;)

[Old and In the Way]

34. Prescott Bush was Nixon's patron and a key supporter of his

original Congressional election. Nixon returned the favor by bringing GHW into prominence on getting him the RNC chair before naming him CIA DO. So there had been an interesting Bush-Nixon relationship for many, many years.

This new angle is very interesting. Nixon knew something of the "Bay of Pigs" problems which was his euphemism for the JFK assassination. Bush, of course, is now known to have been enroute to Tyler Texas and called the FBI to advise that a suspcious guy in Houston should be checked out (turned out to be a guy who defeated him in the Texas House primary). I think that was a cover document, personally. And to think that GHW Bush couldn't remember where he was on 11/22/63. BTW, Nixon was in Dallas on the 21st....hmmm.

Perhaps it was a decision to get rid of Nixon. Maybe he was cracking up and he was a threat to the shadow government. Search threads by Octafish here if you want to read some interesting associations with Bush/CIA/Bay of Pigs/JFK assassination.

The nightmare started 11/22/63 and the same people seem to be turning this country into a totalitarian state today.

[Carni]

36. Thanks for this info

And I agree with you completely...this same band of crooks has been at work since 1963.

Have you read Kevin Phillips book about the bush family?

It is painfully dry to read (at least to me it was) but he lays it all out regarding the family empire and how long they have been screwing with the American public. It's a great resource.

[Josh]

45. Nixon on GHW Bush., "He's a lightweight. The kind of person

you appoint to something."

If he only knew...

[yardwork]

64. Well, he knows now, presumably!

Dick, if you're listening, could you help us out a little with these guys? They've turned out to be much bigger problems than we ever dreamed they'd be.

[Piperay]

22. It wouldn't surprise

me one bit ... the Bushies are TOTALLY E-V-I-L and could easily backstab one of their own.

[aquart]

32. No Republican will believe it.

So does it matter if it's true or not?

Aside from the sheer pleasure of imagining a Republican president brought down by one they chose to elevate.

[merh]

86. That is why this is coming out now - as a smoke screen to

distract from the "gates" of the weed's admin (torturegate, iraqgate, gannongate, plamegate, votergate, etc.). They want the world to know that poppy loves the nation and his party so much that he would out bad old tricky dick and save our nation from his crimes!

Why else does woodward kiss the weed's ass and make him seem so credible? He owes poppy, he made his reputation and fortune thanks to poppy's help.

Why the watergate papers in Texas and not Washington?

It all makes so much sense. Smoke & Mirrors folks, smoke and mirrors, you have my permission to release this info so that it helps our reputation and stops people from making fun of the boy!

From the Post article
"Deep Throat is one person, not a composite of several sources, he is a man and he is still living. Woodward noted that Deep Throat was a smoker and that he drank Scotch. "Aware of his own weaknesses, he readily conceded his flaws," the reporters wrote. "He was, incongruously, an incurable gossip, careful to label rumor for what it was, but fascinated by it. ... He could be rowdy, drink too much, overreach. He was not good at concealing his feelings, hardly ideal for a man in his position."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/watergate/deept.htm

[Ouabache]

47. Nixon wasn't one of their own

He was not subservient to them.

[Piperay]

82. No, he wasn't

that is why as far as they were concerned he had to go. I honestly believe that Nixon was brought down initially by his own party because he was too progressive for them, they hated him for going to China...consorting with 'Commies'.

[0rganism]

79. Dick 'Maximum Wage' Nixon was never one of their own

Nixon was, really, the last of the old-school republican presidents (which may not seem fair to Gerald Ford, who is by most accounts a decent human being, but I do view him as a transitional figure to acceptance of neoconservativism...) Nixon represented the GOP legacy poorly, and after his resignation it faltered in the ascendancy of a corrupted version of Goldwater's ideology preferred by GHWB.

[starroute]

101. There was a creeping coup during the period 1958-74

I've been trying to sort this out recently, separate truth from tinfoil -- which isn't easy -- and arrive at a coherent story of what really was happening in those years. So far, I only have the picture in broad strokes, but certain patterns are becoming clear.

Act One (1958-63) is marked by the development of an alliance between the CIA covert ops types and the unconventional warfare types in the military, and their initial attempts to take over control of foreign policy from the diplomats. This was going on in the final years of Eisenhower's administration and was the basis for his warning against the military-industrial complex. It continued into the Kennedy administration, with Kennedy's initial embrace and then growing skepticism of the warhawks possibly being the cause of his assassination.

Act Two (1963-69) consists of an initial phase (1963-65) when the CIA was running amok in general -- Indonesia, the Iraq coup and elimination of intellectuals, plots against Castro, fingering Nelson Mandela -- and a second phase (1966-68) dominated by Vietnam and by the use of dirty counter-insurgency tactics like Operation Phoenix.

Act Three (1969-74) is the Nixon administration. I have no idea what was really going on behind the scenes, but I suspect that, like Kennedy, Nixon started out as "their" man and gradually moved away, leading to his removal. (I've even seen it suggested that E. Howard Hunt deliberately bungled the Watergate burglary to set that particular scenario in motion.)

And then there's a sort of Epilogue during the Ford administration (1974-76), when George H.W. Bush becomes head of the CIA and sets up Team B to provide the ultra-gloomy assessments of Soviet power that would enable the warhawks (who by now are operating through groups like the Committee on the Present Danger) to reassert their own paranoid view of the world. This is where the present-day Neocons first enter the picture.

As I say, this is still very murky, largely because I don't know who the "they" really were -- but clearly the BFEE had a lot to do with it. Allen Dulles was central to the undermining of Eisenhower. Averill Harriman played a crucial role in the escalation of Vietnam by setting up the assassination of President Diem. And George Bush may have been involved in Watergate and was certainly a pivotal figure immediately afterwards. No doubt a consideration of the early careers of Rumsfeld and Cheney would also prove illuminating.

[Oilwellian]

128. You may find this link helpful

This is a wonderful website that shows the history of our military industrial complex and neocons working behind the scene.

http://buddhistpeacegroup.org/pnac/

[starroute]

135. That does look useful

There are a lot of familiar names there I don't know much about. When I was a kid in the 50's and 60's, I just took government policies for granted, even when I disapproved of them. I guess I figured that governments naturally work to maximize their own power, just as corporations work to maximize their profits, and that you can't expect them to show any actually intelligence or forethought.

But now it's starting to seem that post-World War II history didn't necessary need to go the way it did -- that there were identifiable individuals with a certain agenda and a certain influence on events that made that history what it was. We can't change the history at this point, but by understanding what happened and why, we *can* change our own assumptions and thus affect the future.

[0rganism]

143. I would also include a Prologue, or Overture, or some such thing

Ever since 1945 and the transition of the OSS to the CIA under Dulles, the CIA has been an ideological policy tool. A lot of ex-Nazis were brought in during the occupation of Germany to spy on the Soviets, and from that we get a pro-fascist swing in the process of implementing Eisenhower's "New Look" policies. While you note the CIA's amok-ness during the mid-60s, this was an extension of existing procedures that involved displacing selected regimes from Iran to Guatemala during the '50s. How much of this behavior was indirectly motivated by McCarthy's red scare tactics I don't know for sure.

Also during the late '40s and '50s we have the inception of Operation Mockingbird, if you swing that way. Some tend to write it off as "conspiracy theory", but since this is the CIA we're talking about, it's a bit like accusing people at software companies of computer programming.

If you're still building this mosaic, it's probably worth noting the connections to United Fruit through J.F. Dulles, and the ties between Averill Harriman and Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker via W.A. Harriman & Co. which later merged into Brown Brothers Harriman, a major financier for Hitler's war machine.

I guess what I'm getting at is the "creeping coup" was not so much a new thing as a continuation and extension of existing structures and ideologies. There are interwoven family trees and grudges going back to the robber barons of the Gilded Age. In this context, reversing FDR's legacy is probably as much a matter of Bush family "honor" as it is a giveaway to the big GOP donors.

[starroute]

146. Those things are all extremely relevant

Also, it wasn't just ex-Nazis -- it was Japanese ex-fascists as well. At the end of the war, Ryoichi Sasakawa (who'd had his own private army of blackshirts in the 1930's) and Yakuza leader Yoshio Kodama were jailed as war criminals. But in 1948, they were mysteriously freed, apparently at the instigation of the CIA, and all charges against them dropped. Both men went on to be instrumental in the founding of the Asian People's Anti-Communist League and of Moon's Unifcation Church in 1954. See:
http://www.americanatheist.org/spr00/T2/fitrakis.html
http://www.gorenfeld.net/blog/2004/05/self-described-worlds-richest-fascist.html

In 1966, the Asian People's Anti-Communist League, apparently working in concert with the Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations (a hotbed of old European fascists) would become the World Anti-Communist League (which whose role in Iran-Contra I mention in a post below.)

And Operation Mockingbird and the resulting extremely heavy CIA influence on the Washington Post obviously has some bearing on Watergate. (Among other things, Ben Bradlee's wife's sister was married to CIA figure Cord Meyer and a college friend of both of theirs was the wife of James Jesus Angleton. After Mary Meyer divorced her husband, she and John Kennedy became lovers. Mary was mysteriously murdered in 1964, and Angleton made off with her diary.)

The connections aren't all clear -- and some of them may never be revealed -- but it's becoming obvious that the dark thread which winds through US history since World War II overwhelmingly has to do with the CIA, CIA-related groups like the WACL, and the influence of extreme anti-communists and unconventional warfare advocates within the government. And though those groups all existed by the late 40's, 1958 does mark the beginning of what I called above a creeping coup, whereby they took over complete control of the US government from within.

[starroute]

157. The BFEE and the National Strategy Information Center

I've been researching this a bit more and come up with information on the National Strategy Information Center that seems to tie the Bushes in with a lot of this other stuff.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/org/nsic.php

The National Strategy Information Center (NSIC), founded in 1962, was the first right-wing think tank to address such issues as national security strategy, low-intensity conflict, operations of intelligence agencies, political warfare, and the role of nongovernmental groups, especially labor unions, in furthering foreign and military policy goals. Over the past four decades, NSIC has worked with the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies in studies of political and psychological warfare and in their collaboration with conservative labor union operations, especially in Europe and Latin America.

<snip>

Among NSIC's founding directors were such right-wing figures as Joseph Coors, Frank Barnett, William Casey, Frank Shakespeare, and Prescott Bush, Jr., brother of George H.W. Bush. Barnett, who was one of the most prominent members of the Committee on the Present Danger, became a leading advocate of political warfare, psychological operations, and low-intensity conflict strategy in the 1980s.

Frank Barnett seems to be of particular significance. He was connected with both the H. Smith Richardson Foundation and the Institute for American Strategy. In 1961, he published an article called "A Proposal for Political Warfare," which advocated "diverse forms of coercion and violence including strikes and riots, economic sanctions, subsidies for guerrilla or proxy warfare and, when necessary, kidnapping or assassination of enemy elites." It was Barnett who in the early 70's would recruit Richard Mellon Scaife to become a major donor to right-wing causes, applying these same methods of political warfare to domestic US affairs. (It was Scaife who in the 1990's would be the primary funder of the attempt to destroy Bill Clinton.)

Joseph Coors was, of course, another major right-wing donor of the 70's and 80's, who instigated the creation of Paul Weyrich's Heritage Foundation. Casey and Shakespeare were both CIA.

H. Smith Richardson was an old friend of Prescott Bush, Sr., close enough to have asked Prescott for advice when setting up his foundation in 1956. The two men had original met through General Robert E. Wood, a friend of the Bush family (his daughter married William Stamps Farish, Jr.) and the founder in 1940 of the America First Committee, for which Richardson had contributed the start-up money.

In 1955, Wood himself had founded a group called the American Security Council, with the support of another America First-er, William Regnery. The original purpose of the ASC was to maintain files on left wingers for the benefit of conservative employers wishing to screen potential employees, but it eventually evolved into a major center of the military-industrial complex.

In the 1970's, the ASC's membership had a great deal of overlap with the World Anti-Communist League on one hand and with George H.W. Bush's Team B and the Committee on the Present Danger on the other. The ASC's Coalition for Peace Through Strength, founded in 1978, was an umbrella group for a large number of organizations which were opposed to detente and arms control, and with Reagan's election its views became official US policy.


I realize this is all a bit fuzzy. But it definitely shows that Prescott Bush Sr. was closely connected with many of the figures associated in the late 50's and early 60's with the military-industrial complex and with support for both a hard line towards the Soviets and unconventional warfare. And it also shows that George Sr. seems to have inherited his father's connections by the time he became CIA director in the middle 70's.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

29. A few years ago

a group of D.C. poli-sci students spent considerable time researching and studying the people on the 'possible suspects' list and and most came up with the same guy...Pat Buchanan. But I've always doubted that theory because Buchanan is such a lime light seeker that I think he would have revealed himself long ago. I think the Wimp, father of the Chimp is a good guess.

[Old and In the Way]

35. George HW "Out of the Loop" Bush

Always around the periphery of things....Bay of Pigs, JFK assassination, Guns for Hostages, Iran-Contra, BCCI, Reagan assassination attempt, Rev. Moon, the bin Laden family, Carlyle Group. Even spent the night at the WH on 9/10/01...while Dimson overnighted in Florida.

Just one lifetime of monumental "coincidences" and associations.

[Syrinx]

75. my god, you're right

Wow. He's Mr. Coincidence isn't he? And the only person who was alive in 1963 that can't remember where he was on that November day. I hope justice will be serverd one of these days.

[Melynn]

81. George HW Bush isn't the only person who can't

remember where he was at on 11/22/63. Nixon also claimed he couldn't remember where is was at on 11/22/63. Nixon couldn't remember and he was leaving Dallas when Kennedy was shot.

I was in the second grade when JFK was assassinated and I can remember where I was at when I heard the news but these two adult men couldn't remember that day. Strange.

[Carni]

166. Yes, he has a strange way of doing that doesn't he?

That family has been right smack dab in the center of everything since the turn of the century in one way or another.

[leesa]

37. Figures...petty, vindictive Bushes. Disgusting human beings!

I still want to know where the Bush Crime Family head was when Kennedy was shot.

[orleans]

38. Olberman said look for the byline

in sunday's l.a. times "clue"

[alfredo]

42. I got the feeling he was leading to

GGgnnkkkkkkkkkkkk,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[orleans]

56. could you be a little more specific?

[alfredo]

57. gurgle

[Gman]

39. This would plausibly explain the puzzling unlimited access

Woodward had to Bush and the subsequent book. Woodward would be known to be trusted. EVen while there were those that saw the book as a slam on Daddy's boy, Woodward himself defended the book as not a slam and the rest of the right wing picked up on Woodward's very same talking points.

[SmokingJacket]

97. Yep -- this has always puzzled me.

Junior never had to give Woodward those interviews, and the book was not always flattering. Someone was owed. That's how the Bushes work.

[Ouabache]

44. Kevin Phillips in his Bush Dynasty book says

that GHWB was really HOT for the vp nomination in 68, pushed to have himself placed on it in place of Agnew in 72, pushed to be named FORD's VP when Rockefeller had it. He was nothing if not ambitious for the VP post ever since the 60's ! I thought it was a very revelatory thing in Phillips's book that I never saw anyone here mention. Why was GHWB so hot for the VP spot as early as the the 1960's? AND I MEAN HOT. You should all read Kevin Phillips book on the Bush Dynasty. Lots of revelations there, although I think he is loathe to admit the whoredom of the media from the 80's onward, for some odd reason.

[dandrhesse]

50. What a bunch of drivel! No way, don't believe any of the bush clan

has done anything to put things "right" for the american people, please, this is so against everything they are about. nope, i don't buy it. I do believe they are low enough to try to convince people that one of theirs tried to restore respectibility to government - puke alert!

[neuvocat]

52. Did you see the part about the motivation?

There's nothing stating that Bush (if in fact he did it) had altruistic intentions.

[Old and In the Way]

55. It would have absolutely nothing to do with altruism and everything to do

with protecting certain information. I think Nixon was starting to stress crack at this point and it would not surprise me that the decision was made to cut him loose.

[merh]

88. That's exactly what they expect, only in the reverse!

When this comes out, no one will ever believe that the boy blunder would ever do anything to hurt the nation, no never! It is a distraction.

[dandrhesse]

113. I totally agree

truth to be exact opposite, what else is new? Right? and yes just like all their other detours anything to take the focus off what is really happening at this time.

[merh]

124. If they control the release of the message, they control the

message and its impact. I do see it as an attempt to distract and to make the BFEE seem so herioric and proud nationalists, but I also see that some of the "old GOPer's" and loyal repugs will find it disgusting and it will finally turn them against the family. I pray so.

[flyarm]

126. you bet it is and when

americans realize all their social security money has been sotolen by this cabal and therefore the bush panic to get piratiazation of their s.s. they will make boy wonder out to be only doing it for the good of this nation!!..they are crooks..all of them!! and murderers!!
fly

[merh]

127. The ole bait and switch routine!

Look over here, not over there! Theives, liars and murderers! :cry:

I want my nation back!

[flyarm]

130. me too merh..me too!! n/t

[flyarm]

131. don't miss what i posted here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1213645&mesg_id=1215337

i have had these files hidden for a long time..check them out!! usually too afraid to post!!

fly:hi:

[BiggJawn]

53. Why didn't Poppy just have Tricky Dicky killed?

Like he did JFK and tried to do to Ronaldus Rex?

[Cooley Hurd]

90. I think the BFEE wrote off presidential assassinations after Kennedy...

...it pissed them off that, after all their dirty work, that JFK was raised to martyrdom and, in a way, became more powerful in death than in life.

[BiggJawn]

91. Not quite.

The attempted hits against Gerry Ford to remind him to keep his yap shut about what went on in the Warren Commission, and the attempted hit on Ronnie because Poppy was horny for the Oval Office.

But they have seen to have gotten out of the business...Maybe a lack of professionals who work for cheap? Poppy's a little too old to stand in storm drains with a sniper rifle, after all....

[Octafish]

58. He's always around when Presidents fall.

Kennedy.
Nixon.
Reagan.
Tried Clinton.
Gore.

Here's how George Herbert Walker Bush ties in with JFK assassination:

http://www.internetpirate.com/bush.htm

There are links to the others. GOOGLE Nixon and the-Texans; Bush and Hinckley to name two pair.

[tinrobot]

66. Changes it from a whistleblower to poltical revenge.

What I mean is that I've always thought of Deep Throat as sort of a whistleblower type - someone who saw corruption and wanted to do the right thing by exposing it.

If it's GHWB, then it becomes more of a political act of revenge.

Particularly when GHWB's buddies Cheney and Rumsfeld rise to power under Ford after Nixon's demise.

[AuntiBush]

77. Wishful thinking these days.

We need whistle blowers. But w/this bunch... I dunno. They've got so much control, we're clamped down to our knees in mis-information and propaganda lies. Interesting story though... maybe another diversion.

[AuntiBush]

67. More Links from Washington Post

From the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/watergate/deept.htm


(snip)

The identity of Bob Woodward's background source during Watergate remains the best-kept secret in American politics and journalism. Only four people on the planet are known to have the name -- Woodward; his partner, Carl Bernstein; Ben Bradlee, the former executive editor of The Washington Post; and of course, Deep Throat himself.

(end snip)

Read more here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/watergate/deepthroat.html

Edited: Still new at this, sorry gang.

[AuntiBush]

68. Wash Post site states

"Deep Throat wishes to remain anonymous. But some bits of information have been disclosed over the years: Deep Throat is one person, not a composite of several sources, he is a man and he is still living. Woodward noted that Deep Throat was a smoker and that he drank Scotch. "Aware of his own weaknesses, he readily conceded his flaws," the reporters wrote. "He was, incongruously, an incurable gossip, careful to label rumor for what it was, but fascinated by it. ... He could be rowdy, drink too much, overreach. He was not good at concealing his feelings, hardly ideal for a man in his position."

There's more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/watergate/deept.htm

?W?
:kick:

[flyarm]

129. check this out i had in files!!

http://sanderhicks.com/franklin.html

and then this one...all about the ghbush crap!!

http://www.beyondweird.com/ufos/Bruce_Walton_The_Underground_Nazi_Invasion_15.html

i have always been nervous to post this stuff!!

but have had in my files a long time!!

[merh]

132. Check out this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1839142

[flyarm]

134. thanks merh...

and we are conspiracy theorists right?? who the hell could make this crap up...i have had lots of this stuff hidden on my comp for years now..but they are the religious Reich ..right!!..add murder to their child porn rings...these ... are sick blastards... and destroying our nation and i am dang sick of it...i can't even stand to go to church anymore ..it gags me!
fly

[merh]

136. I wear my tinfoil hat proudly. Better to be a conspiracy theorist

than to sit ignorant and let them destroy lives in my name and destroy my nation. As to religion, yet another discussion thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1209520&mesg_id=1215254

:tinfoilhat:

[Old and In the Way]

148. Very interesting.That was quite a big headline for the

Washington Times. I wonder if Moon has used this scandal to blackmail George, Sr. to do their Moonie business?

[Dover]

70. I just went to Woodwards and Bernstein's panel discussion at UT

which was part of the ceremony mentioned in the original post.
They covered a lot of ground and talked a lot about the press now and then, what's changed, etc.
REALLY fascinating discussion that included Richard Ben Veniste, Joan Hoff, Richard Reeves, Anthony Lewis, Bob Schieffer and others. And I also spoke to some of them briefly afterwards. I'm too tired right now to go into the details but on the subject of who Deep Throat might have been, Joan Hoff said that she would like an investigation into the group of Republicans (mainly neocons) who might have been, at the very least, happy to see Nixon leave office if they weren't directly involved in bringing him down. She said they were the same group involved with Iran Contra as well and were strongly against Nixon's foreign policies with regard to Communist countries such as China and Russia.
So if there's any truth to that, then it might be worth pursuing.
None of the other panelists really responded to that suggestion. She also wondered if perhaps there were MANY Deep Throats, but Woodward quickly said there was just one.
She also suggested that Woodward or Bernstein videotape Deep Throat admitting to his participation so that there is no doubt and the public is not left wondering...

[starroute]

104. One trail goes back to the OSS in China during World War II

Towards the end of World War II, there were six men at the same small OSS base in China -- working at stirring up the locals to engage in guerrilla activity against the Japanese and paying them off with bars of opium -- whose names wind through the next thirty years and more of US history.

Paul Helliwell was instrument in the 50's in setting up the CIA's network of drug-running and money laundering and then -- after Castro kicked the CIA and the Mob out of Cuba -- in initiating the anti-Castro efforts out of Miami that included the Bay of Pigs.

Ray S. Cline probably helped set up the World Anti-Communist League when he was CIA station chief in Taiwan in the late 50's. He was CIA deputy director from 1962 to 1966. He left the CIA in 1973 and headed a loose group of former CIA agents supporting Bush's presidential bid in 1979-80. He was involved in support for the Contras in the 80's and had a lot to do with Bush's planning for Gulf War I in the early 90's.

John Singlaub was CIA deputy chief in Korea during the Korean War and headed the Joint Unconventional Warfare Task Force (Operation Phoenix) in Vietnam in the late 60's. He was forced to resign from the military for arguing with President Carter about troop reductions in Korea, then headed the World Anti-Communist League when it was the primary conduit for covert aid to the Contras in 1984-86. He's still around today, warning about the North Korean menace and claiming that the Chinese are behind al Qaeda.

E. Howard Hunt was involved in the CIA coup against Arbenz in 1954, was William Buckley's superior officer when Buckley was with the CIA in Mexico City, may or may not have been associated with the Kennedy assassination, and wound up as one of the Watergate plumbers.

(The last two, Mitch WerBell and Lucien Conein are less prominent but also come into the story occasionally. For example, they were both part of Nixon's War on Drugs, with some wacky scheme that involved inventing James Bond devices to assassinate drug dealers.)


I mention this stuff because George H.W. Bush is associated in one way or another with all four of these figures -- most closely with Ray Cline, but also with the others through a variety of CIA, Bay of Pigs, Watergate, and Iran-Contra connections. If the Dulles/Harriman/Bush axis that I touched on in a post above is one side of the BFEE story, these various OSS-derived covert operators have to be the other.

[Dover]

109. Really interesting. I wonder if that's the same group Hoff was referring

to when she called for an investigation? She said they were strongly anti-Communist...and she (or someone on the panel) also mentioned that this group may have been party to a coup in the making all along. She is CEO of the Center for the Study of the Presidency and wrote the books Nixon Reconsidered(1994), and Faustian Foreign Policy from Woodrow Wilson to George W. Bush (2005).

But if they are so anti-communist...why make nice with Putin and allow the close links to China (particularly as regards our currency?). Are they hoping that a thriving market economy there will automatically bring Democracy?
Or are they just a bunch of wealthy opportunists with corporate links...ideological differences be damned?

Your post has a lot of good information. What's the source?

[starroute]

133. There's no single source -- but here are some places to start

I only stumbled onto the World Anti-Communist League last October in the course of a thread on "Stolen Honor" which traced the connections of producer Carlton Sherwood to Reverend Moon. Since then, I've been piecing things together a little bit at a time.

The best single online source I know is "Growth of Reagan's Contra Commitment, excerpted from the book The Iran-Contra Connection: Secret Teams and Covert Operations in the Reagan Era, by Jonathan Marshall, Peter Dale Scott, Jane Hunter." http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Ronald_Reagan/ReaganContraCommit_TICC.html
It's mostly about the events of the late 70's and 80's, but it has earlier background material as well. That's where I found out about the OSS/China connections.

There's a good article on the World Anti-Communist League in French -- of which the Babelfish translation is mostly intelligible -- at http://www.reseauvoltaire.net/article13873.html .

RightWeb can also help fill in the general outlines, although their descriptions of individuals and groups are pretty schematic and tend to toss a lot of names out without explaining the connections. See, for example, their entries on The Committee on the Present Danger: http://rightweb.irc-online.org/groupwatch/cpd.php and Team B: http://rightweb.irc-online.org/govt/team-b.php

The rest is just a matter of Googling the names that come up in articles like those and seeing what else pops up -- like the E. Howard Hunt/William Buckley connection, or the Ray Cline/George Bush alliance.

The topic is an enormous one, and I'm feeling way over my head in dealing with it. There are whole areas -- like the Bush Sr./Houston business circles/S&L scandal/CIA money-laundering/Iran-Contra set of relationships that I know next to nothing about but which I'm aware are very important.

As far as why they'd be making nice with Putin and the Chinese, I think that's a matter of certain deep divisions on the right. One, which goes back to the 1930's, separates the internationalists and multilateralists from the isolationists and unilaterialists. Another separates those who will do anything for profit from those who are driven purely by ideology.

Bush Sr. is a mystery in part because he always seems to have a foot in both camps, just as he has a foot in both Connecticut and Texas. Bush Jr. is far more purely on the side of the unilateralists and the ideologues. Current policy on North Korea and China seems to be caught sqaurely between the two positions, which may be why it gives a certain impression of paralysis.

[Dover]

144. Thanks for all those links! You are clearly already well read on this

subject and your posts are, therefore, a real asset to this discussion. Thanks again!

[98geoduck]

83. Where was the name "Deep Throat" derived from?...

Did John Holmes attend Yale?

[merh]

85. Maybe the 1st time they met poppy it was at a porn theater and

the movie "deep throat" was showing. Or maybe they used the opposite reference for the voice "nasally voice" or "whiny guy" would be too obvious! :shrug:

[merh]

84. Now we know why woodward has been kissing the weed's ass!

He owes poppy his reputation and fortune so he tells us what a great leader the boy blunder is! :puke:

[bklyncowgirl]

89. So the theory is that Poppy dropped dime on Tricky Dick

basicly to get him out of the way for his own rise to power.

Interesting. Very interesting.

[stlsaxman]

92. Wonder if Poppy was on the erased tapes?

It would make sence, but i doubt we'd ever know...

[GetTheRightVote]

94. the evilness of the * cartel has been with us a long time, to long

time for them to go, thank god little * had no boys.

:kick:

[underpants]

96. Either Poppa or Cheney-they had to cut the Nixon part out of the party

That is my theory anyway.

[ferme ta bush]

99. You're All Wrong

Who died last week? Mary Woods...Nixon's secretary. I think it's her.....remember W and B said "You will learn something new..."
W and B are just milking it by dustracting us with Poppy....

[Middle Finger Bush]

100. nice

[sunnystarr]

102. Well that's wrong cause I saw Woodward and Bernstein in an

interview ... where Deep Throat was referred to as "he." The host commented that DT must be a "he" then. Both agreed that DT was male.

[bobthedrummer]

105. Richard Ober, the guy that ran the illegal domestic programs during MH

CHAOS/Operation:CHAOS in the late 60's and early seventies for Richard McGarrah Helms at the CIA under Nixon's Huston Plan was rumored to actually be Deep Throat.
http://www.textfiles.com/conspiracy/CN/cn09-42.txt

Operation CHAOS
http://www.cia-on-campus.org/surveil/chaos.html

[Sophree]

106. Kissinger is Deep Throat.

Kissinger- it's so obvious.

[BlueInRed]

107. My only 2 questions are

If the Bushies are so able to control things behind the scenes (and I'm really not disputing that, just playing devil's advocate), why wasn't he able to manipulate:

1. The primaries for the 1980 election where he was running against Reagan. (I remember this well, b/c my mom was for Bush.)

2. His reelection in 92.

It seems to me if he could have controlled all these other things, etc, he could have at least knocked Reagan out of the primaries. Now the reelection thing is a bit easier to understand, but the first one I can't reconcile. I'm sure Reagan had vulnerabilities that the CIA types could have exploited.

I really do believe a lot of stuff about the Bushies, but I'm not sure he fits the profile of a smoking, scotch drinking DT.

[merh]

117. He hadn't yet figured out how to steal elections the way

they did in 2000, 2002 and 2004.
The will of the people was the unpredictable component that he hadn't quite figured out. They tried in '96 and '98, but they mastered it in 2000. Now it is not an art form, but a science.

[kk897]

121. I have this very simplistic idea of What Goes On...

I think there may be this nearly eternal tension between one ideology and its adherents and another. It's a continual struggle for power. Sometimes one "party" gains a foothold, and then, a few years down the road, it's the other's turn to turn the tables.

I'm not sure I'd classify these people in terms of political party, since some of the powerful seem to be either apolitical or they turn against members of their own political party for personal gain.

Maybe it's sort of Totalitarianism vs. Individualism, but it seems that while the dynamic is simplistic, the ideologies are not, so that's probably not a good summation. You might think, "Globalism" vs. Individualism, but that doesn't quite get it either, since the ones who seem superficially in favor of Globalism (i.e., liberals, the UN, people the right wingers really hate) actually favor extreme respect of the individual (i.e., human rights, multiculturalism, etc.). And then you get the ones who seem superficially to favor Individualism (smaller government, less "interference" and more "liberty") who are actually bent on RULING THE WORLD! Bwahaha!

I hate to say it, since it sounds really, really, really simplistic and even stupid, but I have come recently, since this last election, to see it in terms of Mostly Good vs. Mostly Evil, and it's been that way for a long, long time, starting (in America) at least with the drug trade with China and Afghanistan in the 1800s and the rise of the robber barons, leading up to Iran-Contra/CIA coke deals/today's reinstatement of Afghanistan as the poppy capital of the world.

But they all have their hands dirty, and they justify it with their ideologies. Perhaps they really believe that what they're doing is for the good of the world in the long run. Maybe some are just into it for the aphrodisiac of power, like Kissinger. Maybe some are purely sociopaths. It seems to run along family lines, not unlike what little I know about the organization of organized crime, with a few trusted chiefs and almost everyone else expendable. One line conforms more closely to what I personally believe is good, and the other more closely to what I personally believe is evil. Ask a right winger, and they'd say the opposite.

Kennedy/Kerry vs. Bush/Bush, with Clinton somewhere in between or playing both lines against each other or trying to shake up the system--he's an outsider and came late to the game, so to speak.

Oh yeah, throw in some of 'em dabbling in sadistic pedophilia and human slavery in a semi-institutional way... oooohhhh... my head hurts....

It's all so big. I don't know how folks like seemslikeadream, Octafish, Minstrel Boy, etc. grasp all of it. The only way I can, sort of, is to boil it down to these simplistic terms.

So am I nuts or what?!

[starroute]

147. Kerry's great-grandfather was deep in the China opium trade

See Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Grant_Forbes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_family

And old Joe Kennedy was persistently rumored to have made his fortune off bootlegging in the 1920's.

So it really does seem that the entire ruling class of this country is descended from pirates, and the only difference between the factions is that some have a certain sense of noblesse oblige and others still have no desire to do anything but rape and pillage.

And that is a problem that democracy alone cannot answer.

[kk897]

154. starroute, you said it

"So it really does seem that the entire ruling class of this country is descended from pirates, and the only difference between the factions is that some have a certain sense of noblesse oblige and others still have no desire to do anything but rape and pillage.

And that is a problem that democracy alone cannot answer."

I believe you're right.

Now, what can we do about it? Democracy doesn't seem to be changing things for the better, or at least not current American-style democracy; what other tools do we need, aside from, I don't know, the assistance of a supernatural force if one believes such a force exists? I mean seriously, does anyone know of a case in history where some such paradigm was successfully shifted by the people? I mean, French Revolution? Russian Revolution? I wish I knew world history better.

[starroute]

155. The French Revolution didn't get rid of the nobility

The popular image of the French Revolution is that they slaughtered every aristocrat they could get their hands on, but that's far from true. Much of the nobility managed to flee the country. In other cases, the holder of a title was guillotined but no one else in their family. And after the Revolution failed and Napoleon was defeated, they all came back and resumed their places in society.

Not only that, but from what I've read, the old aristocratic families have been bedeviling France ever since. The Vichy government that collaborated with the Germans during the World War II was full of them.

It's almost like a problem in systems theory. Concentrations of money and power tend to have a great deal of stability. There's a DNA-like factor there that's self-protecting and self-repairing. It takes a catastrophic system failure to wipe out old aristocracies to the point where they can't rebuild themselves.

Crashes like that do happen. The fall of the Roman Empire was one. Much as they might like to, nobody in Europe has ever been able to trace their ancestry back to the patricians (or anybody else, for that matter) in ancient Rome. The furthest they can get is to some of the barbarians who overthrew the empire. But catastrohic failure isn't exactly a solution to our present problems either.

It's a nasty little question, and not one where there seem to be any good answers.

[Dover]

108. IF this turns out to be true, then were Woodward and Bernstein Bush shills

originally hired to bring Nixon down?

The author of this article asks a very good question. Why would the most secretive leader to date be so accessible to Woodward, and allow him so close if he had been an 'enemy' of the Republican party?
And why is Woodward so forgiving of the Bushes in his remarks?

And is it also why the Post, among others, has been so uncritical of the Bush administration in general?

[lynne]

110. Nope - it wasn't Poppa Bush -

- because he didn't have the spine for it.

[catzies]

111. I've thought it was Poppy for awhile now. n/t

n/t

[Nitrogenica]

112. He named himself "Deep Throat" in honor of Babs.

[EVDebs]

118. How's this for a 'suspect'... Gordon Strachan

the only one of the indicteds to retain his law license (he now practices in Park City UT), and he would have the info on that missing $350K ... plus he was Haldeman's political assistant. That means he would have had info on the Huston Plan and other insider dirty tricks, otherwise why indict him in the first place ?

See the Watergate tapes Sat. April 14, 1973 and Tues. April 17, 1973

"Gordon Strachan's perjury" and "money for Watergate defendents"

How did Strachan keep his law license ?

[merh]

141. Loss of license is not a sign of anything. Many states still

allow convicted felons to retain their licenses or, if suspended or revoked, petition for reinstatement. Like voting, the rules that govern the requirements regarding law licenses differ from state to state. It is not unusal that he retained his right to practice.

[EVDebs]

149. Nixon lost his law license and Krough had to fight to get his back

"New York pulled Richard Nixon's law license, but that came after he resigned the presidency August 9, 1974, during the Watergate scandal." (From report titled: "Arkansas Supreme Court committee files suit to disbar Clinton")
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/30/clinton.disbarment.02/

"Nixon plumber who went to prison tells story
Egil Krogh has advice for government workers: 'Never fail to ask, 'Is this right?' "
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/139617_plumber15.html

So, generally I'd agree. But no one even tried to pull Strachan's from what I'm able to determine. Looks like he was either talking from the beginning or it was part of the plan. At least they could have made an effort to appear like he was being treated like Krough, ya know what I mean ?

And what is really surprising in all of this is that Woodward and Bernstein, despite their own deceptions, got the story right:

"The President's men, as revealed on the tapes, shared the fearsome vision of their leader. Chapin, Dean, Krogh, Zeigler, Magruder, Colson, Porter, Strachan, Huston, Young, Haldeman, Ehrlichman. Willingly, even enthusiastically, they outdid each other with plans to "screw" the White House enemies, to supplant the security functions of the FBI with a squad of White House vigilantes, to undermine the electoral process through disruption of the opposition party's primaries, to "fix" mock elections in high schools, to smear the reputations of politicians and public servants of both parties and -- finally -- to undermine the administration of justice."

From: "A Passion for the Covert: The Response to the Threat of Discovery" by Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/watergate/articles/080974-1.htm

Looking at that quote above, the current White House appears to be outdoing the Nixon administration. Too bad there isn't another Woodward or Bernstein, even working for military intelligence or CIA or whomever, to inadvertently save the public from the exact same crimes Watergate revealed so many long years ago...

[merh]

150. It's amazing what "gifts" the government prosecutors will offer

to folks to tell all they know. The way investigators/prosecutors work is to snare a small fish and offer him/her their freedom in exchange for the bigger fish. Not unusual at all.

[EVDebs]

151. What I'm getting at is I think Strachan was CIA inside the Nixon WH

and that's why he got the deal he did. Besides, Haldemann should have been aware of the guy who leaked the tape information (Alexander Butterfield) was 'former' CIA (Australia assignment). Who else inside the Nixon WH would have been could have been CIA besides Butterfield ?

Plus, Strachan handled the $350K.

[merh]

152. What did LaRue do?

I thought he was the bag guy?

[EVDebs]

163. Follow the money, not the bagmen. eom

[merh]

159. How is his health?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1216438

[Borgnine]

122. I've said it before and I'll say it again...

...H.W. Bush reminds me of the Cigarette Smoking Man from The X-Files. He's quietly been involved with or near the scene of every major conspiracy, cover-up, or shady dealings in government for the last forty years.

Where's Mulder and Scully when you need them?

[Dr Fate]

138. Who duzz Ollie Stone think it izzz? :)

:)

[pacifictiger]

139. so,

don'tcha think this story might be planted in order to quash the idea that the BFEE is anything less than honorable?

I find it just a bit tooo convenient in light of all that is going on these days, plus the fact that the current players (cheney, rumsfeld, etal) were all thrown into a bit of a tail spin when Nixon went down. It was only their wily nature that enabled them to survive.
I smell a diversionary rat with this theory.

[flyarm]

145. rove tactics...

the s#$# is going to hit the fan with s.s. when americans find out its been totally robbed by this cabal...its bait and switch.,..russians putting their money into euro china looking at it..only japan holding our economy up..* has to cut all states $$ cause the pnacer's that have a gun to his head want that war in iran...so cut everything..when we are already broke...change the subject!! nowwwwwww!! gotta make one * a honorable man to fool the stupid masses!

fly

[merh]

158. Dean says deep throat is ill, I don't think poppy is ill?

Check out this link!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1216438

[ShadesOfC]

140. Reads like titillating fodder to me

Looking back at author Adrian Havill's back catalog and the fact his latest book recently was released in paperback, I believe he's somewhat of an opportunist hack with his own agenda.

Have either Woodward and Bernstein ever been straight when it comes to the truth, dunno, since they elevated 'here-say' or should I say ''the invisible man' or 'whatever comes out of a monkey's ass' into respected and reliable sources in journalism, I tend to take their publishings with a grain of salt.

George H. W. Bush as Deep Throat, sounds sensational but I'm gonna stick with my favorite boogeyman, Orrin Hatch as DT.

[American Tragedy]

153. I've always thought it was a VERY strong possibility. Think about it.

Bush would have had greater motive than anybody to cleanse the Republican party of someone he saw as an unmitigated disaster, and it's well documented that he hated Nixon.

The very fact that Deep Throat has continually demanded that his identity be hidden until death is significant. There are many people who would have boldly asserted themselves as the source, and then basked in the subsequent media spotlight and book deals, especially nowadays when whistle-blowers are viewed quite favorably. Others whose reputations were already permanently destroyed would similarly feel that they had nothing left to lose in publicly exposing the administration. But Bush was relatively young and unscathed, and still had a political career ahead of him. He might have believed that he had to keep his identity secret in order to continue in the party machinery.

We'll find out, I guess. One of my strongest inclinations has actually been that it was a member of Nixon's family, though I question whether they would have had the necessary access.

[NC_Nate]

161. Kick

:kick:

[Rockerdem]

164. What are you kicking this piece of Roveian crap for?

Karl Rove's favorite technique is to put out a story that lunatics will accept so that valid criticism of the Bush family gets lumped with the crazy stuff. Then it can be pooh-poohed. Along the way, a Bush enemy gets caught up in the enthusiasm and gets beheaded by the MSM for falling for the BS.

When will you suckers ever learn? This is Rove's "offense is defense" tactic to distract and destroy.

[Vidar]

165. Makes sense--Nixon actually had some values, don't want that.