Judge To Decide If School Should Allow Anti-Bush Shirt

[Nambe]

DETROIT (AP)

The Dearborn School District probably acted in good faith when it sent a student home for wearing an anti-President George W. Bush T-shirt, but the action still may have violated the high school student's First Amendment rights, a federal judge said.

--- The school said it was worried about inflaming passions at the school, where a majority of students are Arab-American. "It isn't my belief (that school officials) acted in bad faith, the question is whether the very powerful First Amendment rights dominate," Duggan said. "It may be that their well-intentioned actions violated (Barber's) First Amendment rights." A decision is likely in the coming weeks, the ACLU said Thursday. Barber was scheduled to present a "compare and contrast" essay in English class on Feb. 18, and chose to compare Bush to former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. Barber wore a T-shirt that featured a picture of Bush with the caption "International Terrorist." ---


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[Girlfriday]

1. Bravo

Do you think this Barber is a DU'er.

[Mithras61]

2. and in a related story...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=117740

The difference is that the boy in THIS story wore a shirt we approve of but in the other story the shirt is opne we disapprove of.

The First Amendment is for everyone... even assh*les.

[proud patriot]

4. I agree n/t

[Selwynn]

6. I agree as well...

Either schools can regulate clothing or they cannot, but arguing for a student wearing an anti-bush t-shirt to be allowed in and a confederate flag t-shirt to be sent home is ridiculous. The laws of free speach, even the conditions and occaisions of restriction should be equally and not selectively applied.

By the way -- here is yet another problem that school uniforms would solve. :)

Also, I have another question: if a kid comes to school with a shirt that says N*G*ER in all capitals, should we protect his first amendment rights, or should we protect the rights of all other students not to have to go to pulbic school (which they are required to do) and be harassed by this kids racist propaganda? What about the right of a student to walk down a hallway and not have to deal with symbols of harted like that?

If the only reason we're for the kid is because he expressed an anti-bush sentiment, then I think that's sad. And if that's not true, then I think we have some tough questions to ask about when does the "free speech" of one person violate the rights of another person?

Personally, I believe the "speech" of children in public schools can and should be regulated, i.e. I think schools can and should enforce a dress code. I don't know whether that makes me on the right or left of that issue, but that's how I feel about it regardless.

[Mithras61]

9. Indeed. Public schools *must* regulate speech. The question appears to be

if they should regulate unpopular speech or just hate speech, and when does speech cross the line?

Also, I have another question: if a kid comes to school with a shirt that says N*G*ER in all capitals, should we protect his first amendment rights, or should we protect the rights of all other students not to have to go to pulbic school (which they are required to do) and be harassed by this kids racist propaganda? What about the right of a student to walk down a hallway and not have to deal with symbols of harted like that?

A question in response to yours: Would it make a difference if the student wearing the t-shirt you mention was black or white? Many people here call each other "nigger" without it being taken amiss, simply because the caller & the recipient are both black.

[Selwynn]

14. Yeah... I don't know the answer to that...

Free speech questions are painfully complicated. I like what you said though, that perhaps the line for acceptable free speech should be things deam hate speech -- hate speach to me would have to be targeted a group, or my motivated by race issues, or something like that.

In thinking about your counter-question more... I think the real issue is that there are few words more horribly charged than the n-word in American History. It's possible for some to use the word without offense, but should it be allowed in the manner I described? I don't know. The point I am making I think is that we are going to have to wrestle with issues of drawing the line. It's not as simple as allow all free speech or dont' allow any. (By the way, I said school uniforms would make things simpler, which it would, but I think the cost is too high - I think individuality should be encouraged, but it should also be guided, and sometimes corrected in children).

Thanks to the person who mentioned a fact I overlooked - that it was 17 kids wearing confederate flag shirts, not just one. I think you could argue that in that case, it was not an issue of free expression but rather an orgnaized attempted at intimidation, which I believe qualifies as "speech" that must be regulated. Conversely - I don't believe you could say the same thing about the kid with the anti-bush T-shirt.

If it sounds like I've just done a 180, I'm not sure that's quite true, but you all raise some intersting points, and I'm honestly still struggling to figure out where I am on issues like this. :)

[damnraddem]

17. They should outlaw hate speech.

They can argue that they need to regulate all political speech -- but if they do, they'd better show that they apply the rules equally.

[demdave]

18. And you would be the arbiter or what is or is not hate speech?

This site would be shut down and only Barney the dino could speak in public. I love you, you love me...........


No free speech for fascists. /sarcasm

[trapper914]

19. An example of unprotected speech

Could the above example fill that "yelling fire in a crowded movie house" role?

Wearing a shirt which would like ignite passions to a point where the wellbeing of individuals may be affected could be how legal experts might define cases such as this.

[Trek234]

23. Got any anti-bush bumper sticker?

Get rid of your "unprotected speech".

After all a freeper MIGHT ignite his passion to the point of where your well being may be affected.

Here is a fact

Effecting someones "wellbeing" in a negative way (i.e. because you don't like anti bush shirts) is ILLEGAL and wrong.

Wearing an anti-bush shirt is not.

You are adding legitamacy to the right wingers who use violence to quelch political speech they oppose. In fact, you have allowed them to win because you are now PROHIBITING POLITICAL SPEECH because a right winger might ILLEGALY HARM THE PERSON MAKING THE SPEECH.

Don't you think a much better solution would be to arrest and prosecute the criminal right winger rather than take away the rights of speech because of right wing threats?

By your logic MLK and the civil rights movement should have sat down a shut the hell up. After all the civil rights speech sure might have pissed of a lot of klan members.

[demdave]

26. I'm afraid that is the exact tactic used by campus Democrats.

I remamber Charlton Heston not being able to speak at a college campus because the young Dems. argued that there would be a violent protest....by THEM, no less. They insisted that he pay for totally over the top security and because of it, the speech was canceled. I remember that there were other instances also, I just can't name them off the top of my head. I have never heard of this tactic used against liberal speakers. I never agreed with it then or now.

[demdave]

27. More info.....

bomb-sniffing dog, two full-body metal detectors, two hand-held metal detector wands, at least ten security guards, and four units of the guest's blood type are all that Brandeis University's administration is requiring of student organizers to keep the March 28 Charlton Heston speech from being canceled.

[Selwynn]

29. It's not EITHER/OR! This is why we have courts...

because sometimes its not black and white...

Could wearing a big shirt that says "I HATE N*****" be deemed unprotected speech? I hope so. But where is the line between that and having a bumpersticker that says "Bush sucks?" Somewhere between those two places I would say, and the courts will have to help us on a case by case basis.

[reprobate]

21. The word you refer to is Niger. It is a country to the south of algeria

Why should a kid be censored for advertising a country in africa?

[Selwynn]

30. Lame

I'm sorry were the real questions I was trying to discuss in my post deemed unworthy by you, so that you have to take pot shots at spelling?

[Robb]

5. I don't completely agree

...Not with the "The First Amendment is for everyone" comment, but with the comparison.

Although it's less obvious whether the student wearing the anti-Bush shirt was intending to intimidate others with his clothing, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind the intent when 17 students show up on the same day all wearing confederate flags.

Sticky. Were the 17 students excercising free speech? How about 17 people in clan garb, blocking a hallway? How about 17 protesters outside a PP clinic?

I would argue that the RW corrolary here wouldn't be the 17 kids with the confederate flag shirts, but rather the single man on the corner of the PP clinic with the fetus poster.

Flame away.

[Mithras61]

8. The comparison is that both stories are about people whose t-shirts...

are intended to inflame passions of others. The 17 students in Confederate flag emblazoned t-shirts were obviously doing so in protest of a rule taht was set the previous Friday that said such shirts weren't allowed. I don't have to like what they choose to wear, but they have a right to wear it. The student in the anti-Bush t-shirt was wearing it to cause a stir and express his opinions as well.

I would suggest that Naples High School is not a small school and that 17 students would be unlikely to intimidate enough people to make this small of an effort a worthwhile one, but that it is large enough to attract attention to their cause.

Here's a link to the Faculty & Administration list for Naples HS.

http://www.collier.k12.fl.us/nhs/faculty.html

I don't know Florida's classification system, but a 3A school in Texas is pretty respectably large.

I doubt that any of the students in either of these schools was attempting to intimidate. I suggest that they were expressing a political position that is unpopular with the school's administration, and possibly in their school, and were sent home because of that, not because of attempts to disrupt class or intimidate other students.

[DuctapeFatwa]

11. Wear (any) shirt, yes, block the hall, no

The public schools cannot enter into judging shirts without making subjective judgments that by their nature, cannot be fair and impartial from case to case and school to school.

It would not be reasonable to prohibit shirts with any words or graphics at all, so the best that they can do is draw the line at the old favorite "sexually explicit and/or depictions of acts of violence." which is enough of a slippery slope.

The student who wishes to wear a shirt emblazoned with a racial slur is less of an annoyance than the student who attempts to conceal and disguise his racism. If it's on the person's shirt, you can go sit somewhere else without thinking twice.

Blocking the hallway is a whole nother show, and has nothing to do with freedom of expression. My freedom of expression does not include the freedom to restrict your movement within a public, taxpayer-funded faciliity.

[damnraddem]

16. No, the difference is that the Confederate flag is a symbol of hate.

the question for the Michigan school is whether they allow other shirts with political slogans on them.

[Mithras61]

20. I won't dispute the symbolism of the Confederate flag, but...

I wonder if the 17 would have worn those shirts if the administration of the school hadn't attempted to ban them...

No one's telling that part of the story. Was it really a hate thing, or was it a protest. The school banned Confederate flags on Friday, and on Monday 17 students show up in Confederate flag t-shirts. I see a correllation here.

I'm not saying they were right, I'm just saying that First Amendment protects YOUR right to say things I don't agree with, and that it should do the same in public schools. You DON'T have the right to never hear/see something you don't like. You DO have the right to disagree and challenge people's opinions when you see fit. You DON'T have the right to tell someone what is and what is NOT acceptable speech, unless that speech specifically endangers others or explicitly incites violence. That's the line the SCOTUS has drawn. All I'm asking is that everybody adhere to the same standards. Hate speech is an interesting claim. Most people would say that speech that they disagree with is hate speech. When I was in High School, several kids wore t-shirts emblazoned with swastikas. Seems like hate speech to me, but some might not agree. Since they aren't inciting violence or endangering others, they had the right to wear them.

From a certain viewpoint, calling Bush an international terrorist can be viewed as hate speech. I happen to agree with the sentiment the shirt presents, but to a Bush supporter, it's treasonous & unpatriotic. To others, it's no different than the "Wanted" posters for the OB/GYN doctors on the anti-abortion site. Can you honestly say that it cannot be seen as hate speech?

[Selwynn]

31. I don't agree..

I don't agree that the Confederate Flag is an unambiguous and/or absolute symbol of hate. If that's ture, then the American flag is a symbol of hate becasue we annihiliated the american indians, or did other bad things in the history of our nation. The Confederate Flag was a symbol of the south - both its good (GASP - yes, I said it) and its bad. Some people have now taken that symbol to represent specific values of hatred that they hold. But the symbol for others is a symbol of the grit, and the independance of the south, which if you have never lived in the south, you are just not going to understand.

The confederate flag can be used as a symbol of hate. Which is not the same thing as saying it is a symbol of hate in my opinion. I believe this because I believe not everything about the confederacy was bad, and there were many more issues than salvery involved in the souther succession.

My agrument is that saying the cofederate flag is a symbol of hate becasue of past wrongs means we say the American Flag is a symbol of hate, and may other flags monuments and pieces of our history are all symbols of hate -- I think they are simply symbols of our HISTORY - good and bad, and its up to use to decide how we want to use them.

The counter-argument to be made would probably be that the confederate flag has the force and effect to some people as a Nazi flag my have to a holocaust survivor. And that's a fair point... So there's both sides for ya.

[ScrewyRabbit]

3. All I wanna know is

where do I get one of those shirts?

[meegbear]

7. I saw one in Montreal during Pride ....

and I'm kicking myself still for not buying one.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

10. I got mine in Montreal...

[deek]

12. can't get into www.internationalterrorist.com...found it here(and more)

http://store.yahoo.com/tshirtgiant/political-war-in-iraq-no-war.html

[GoddessOfGuinness]

13. The school needs to understand that it is not responsible for

"inflaming passions". And banning "subversive" apparel is not going to dissuade those passions.

This is a concern that the Bullshit Administration should have considered before invading Iraq. The school administrators should take the matter up with those who ARE responsible.

[LizW]

24. Actually, the schools are.

The cases dealing with confederate flag shirts weigh the schools' duty to keep children safe against the students' free speech rights.

IIRC, the test is whether past events of fighting or other violence give a reasonable basis for administrators to believe that the wearing of the shirt will cause further violence and disruption. If so, they can ban the shirt.

Just because a shirt is intended to "inflame passions" is not enough.

[damnraddem]

15. All the shirt did was tell the truth.

A valuable history lesson.

[Not a robought]

22. Your and my freedoms as guaranteed by the Bill of Rights

end when they encroach upon someone else's freedoms. I doubt hate speech which threatens someone's sense of security requires First Ammendment protection.

There is your bar. Period.

[GinaMaria]

25. Do High school students have a 1st A right in school?

The courts have ruled that they do not have a right to privacy. Their lockers can be searched at any time. Maybe they don't have 1st A rights either. :shrug:

[Doctor Pedantic]

28. Yes, they do.

In the case Tinker v. Des Moines, kids had worn black armbands to protest the Vietnam War. The school tried to ban them, but the Supreme Court said no -- kids don't shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse door.

A lot's happened since then, especially with locker searches, etc. (although that's a 4th, not 1st, Amendment issue).

Shirts that disrupt the educational process can be banned --- I would think that a shirt w/the "N" word would clearly fall within that category. The problem is that it's pretty subjective.

This is why most schools simply say -- no clothing with writing other than manufacturer labels/logos. That's the best and least disruptive approach. But they can't start singling out speech, and that was their problem in this case.

[kwolf68]

32. Lets not forget

They hate us for our freedoms.

[donotpassgo]

33. Do minors have 1st amendment right?

n/t

On edit...oops...question already asked.