Young adults passing on college

[Rose Siding]

WASHINGTON – Young adults value college, but many haven't enrolled because of money woes, poor preparation, low expectations at home or sheer laziness, a survey finds.

The result is that seven in 10 young workers without college degrees say they are in their jobs by chance, not by choice. Less than two in 10 view their jobs as likely careers.

Overall, most adults age 18 to 25 see college as a way to earn society's respect and ensure financial security, says the survey by Public Agenda, a nonpartisan public opinion group. The positive view of college is true regardless of race, ethnicity or family income.

"Most young people have absorbed the 'Go to college, get more education' message," said Ruth Wooden, the Public Agenda president. "Whether they're getting the nuts-and-bolts, real-life help and guidance they need to reach that goal – to actually succeed in graduating from college – is another matter."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/020905dnnatafter.495dd.html

[bobbobbins]

1. I passed on college just because its for suckers

[DS1]

2. I see you passed on the apostrophe, too.

:P

[girl gone mad]

5. That really depends on what you plan to do with your degree.

For some careers, college is a necessity, but for many it probably is a waste of time. Especially for those who party and cheat their way through.

Even in my field, Physics, most of my classmates ended up with jobs that had little to do with their studies.

[AP]

15. College correlates to something like +$1 million in life time earning

potential vs HS graduates, and $1.5 million vs people who don't graduate from HS.

When all you have to sell is your labor, the way to maximize the value of your labor is education.

When you don't get educated, you relegate yourself to being cheap labor for a lifetime unless you take EXTRAORDINARY measures to increase the value of your labor some other way.

[girl gone mad]

21. I'm skeptical of those statistics.

But even if they are accurate, I'm sure you would get a much different result if you compared only intelligent, motivated high school grads to college grads.

[trogdor]

35. College degree == union card.

It gets you through the door in places where only a HS diploma will not cut it. Wanna maximize your college tuition's clout? Major in some profession, like engineering, law, medicine, or whatever, and take a minor in the arts and sciences. Lots of engineers, for example, can't write a coherent paragraph to save their asses; HR managers are truly impressed with the comp. sci. grad who has a minor in English Lit. It just doesn't happen that often, and it really is value-added in a day when you can easily go to the Third World for programmers, but it's not so easy to find a guy who can also write up specifications and such.

[Samurai_Writer]

64. That's what I did -- but opposite

I have two bachelor's degrees -- one in Hotel Restaurant Management, the other in Music History and Performance. I also have two minors -- one in Accounting, and the other in Computer Science. Every interview I've ever been on, the interviewer has commented on my education and its diversity. Especially since most of the interview are for IT jobs. "How did you get involved in IT, when you have a degree in Hotel Management and Music?" If I had a dollar for every time someone asked me that, I would be a rich, rich woman.

[trogdor]

92. Did it help?

[Samurai_Writer]

93. Yes it did...

... got the interviewer to focus on my ability to be both creative and technical, instead of just saying "Oh, you're applying for a programmer job and you got a BS in Computer Science, ho-hum."

[AP]

36. It's the average. For the motivated, it's worth much more.

The average job in the US pays something like 42k.

The average job for a person without a college degree might be as low as 30k. Presume you work for 45 years, and ignoring the time value of money and presuming no raises, the average pay for a job with a college degree would only have to be 50k to account for the 1 million dollar difference.

You don't have to be a super motivate college grad to avereage 50k your entire life vs 30k.

It's amazing people don't realize this.

Don't you think your retirement years will be a little better if you had an extra million in retirement income? Don't you think you would have a little more cultural and politial power if you had 1 million in economic power?

[RawMaterials]

49. What about inflation the greatest tax of all

not to undermine your statement about the difference between college degree or no college degree, but if anyone looks at wages for the middle class and take into account inflation your wage just drop year after year until you retire.

[AP]

53. Why are so many so reluctant to admit the value of an education?

As for your question: you suffer from inflation regardless of your salary. I'd rather endure inflation with an average income 20k greater than that of a person without a college degree.

[shrike]

54. At the risk of becoming flamebait

I'd say part of it is the growing anti-intellectualism in this country. 'Course that's probably another topic.

[AP]

56. I also think there's a leading edge of uderemployed college graduates...

...who are probably overrepresented at DU and they're becoming cheerleaders for the "college isn't worth it" mentality, without realizing that this is exactly what conservatives want: more undereducated people with fewer options who will be forced to accept lower paying jobs, so that the middle class disappears, so that employers can have bigger profit margins thanks to cheaper labor.

[stevedeshazer]

65. I agree, AP

My daughter is a 25 y-o college graduate who is working for about $11/hour at Starbucks. She's becoming pretty cynical.

[RawMaterials]

68. or the fact that the college degree

is now the old high school degree in terms of what it can get you in the real world. Its basically a pre req. more and more people are going back to get masters and PH D's just to get regular jobs.

[VegasWolf]

90. Absolutely, I knew 30 years ago that I had to get an advanced

degree. The statistics that AP quoted change dramatically
when one gets a Masters, PhD, or Professional degree. The
educated Republicans would like to keep university degrees
for themselves and eliminate college grants and loans. The
pickup driving Republicans with mohawks don't even know what
a college is.

[MadisonProgressive]

77. I barely gadgiated from High School

but I make 6 figures. Could I have made more if I'd gone to college? Maybe, maybe not. College is not the be all and end all. I also had to laugh at the 50K vs 20K comparison. Like the person making 50K is really going to save every penny over 20K so he has an extra 1 million at retirement. It probably just means he can afford to have 2 kids and a dog.

[AP]

78. These are AVERAGES!!!

If you and 10,000 other Americans make six figures with only a high school degree, that probably means that there are 10,000,000 unemployed, and another 10,000,000 making 10k a year, and the rest clustered between 10k and 40k.

For every person here who says, "but I know someone making six figures without a college degree," they're pretty much proving that college is incredibly important because the averagage salary for a person with just a high school degree is probably in the 20k range.

And I can't believe you're doing well financially yet you laugh at the 1,000,000 lifetime earning difference between the average college graduate and the average non-college/HS graduate.

Who care's if you spend it or save it. Obviously, you're much better off having it or having had it.

[MadisonProgressive]

84. I KNOW THEY ARE AVERAGES!!!!

I am just pointing out that College is NOT FOR EVERYONE! Did I say that people SHOULD NOT gfo to college???

And I don't for a minute believe that the average salary for a person with a HS degree is 20K.

[AP]

87. The average for all Americans is about 43K

if the lifetime difference is 1 million (a statistic I remember, and haven't googled to confirm) and about half of Americans now go to college, up from a quarter 15 years ago, and not taking into account the time value of money, or anything else, the difference will probably be about 20K per year presuming a 45 year career.

So, I'm just guessing, but the numbers are probably really about 30k and 50k.

What do you think they are?

Look, my only point here is that although college may not be for everyone, it OBVIOUSLY makes a huge difference in how much money you make over your lifetime.

There are so many RW-motivated undercurrents in our society telling people not to go to college (which I think is part of the whole polarization of wealth phenomona: captial, which makes money from cheap labor wants more cheap labor, and you get cheap labor by having a work force with fewer options, and you have fewer options if you have less education, etc.).

I'm just surprised to see so many LIBERALS here at DU being total suckers for that BS.

Yes, college isn't for everyone. But for 99% of Americans, it's their best hope for not being an underpaid cog in somebody else's wealth transfer mechanism (from poor to rich).

[MadisonProgressive]

89. I think

that people that want to go to college should be able to get the financial assistance to do so. I think that people that don't want to go to college should not be looked down on by those that do. My father was a Dean at the University of Wisconsin. He told me my whole life growing up that I wouldn't "amount to anything" if I didn't go to college. It was important to me to make him eat his words as he eventually did as I now make more money that he ever did as a professor, department chair, or Dean.

I just think you're being a little heavy-handed in your support for the benefits of college. As many have pointed out, you can have a PhD and still work at McDonalds if you pick the wrong field.

[AP]

97. I think people who don't go to college and make it anyway tend to be...

...people who had options and choices like (Harvard drop out and son of a rich lawyer) Bill Gates and like some athletes.

For everyone else, this is really an issue about class and opportunity and the value of labor.

If all you have to sell is your labor, the best way to increase the value of your labor is to get an aductation.

If I sound heavy handed it's because I hear some of the same sentiments in this thread that you hear among people who think privatizing social security is OK. Everyone thinks they're going to win the lottery (they're going to pick the right stocks or whatever) and everything will be hunk dory.

Forget the lottery. We shouldn't be arguing that lots of people with degrees don't make it and lots without degress do make it. We should be pointing out that there are huge differences between the two and that we should be making a society which maximizes and not minimizes the value of everyone's labor.

The 'choice' not to attend college when you have nothing to fall back on is usually not a good choice. And if you're making that choice because you really can't afford college, we got to fix the cost problem. And if the choice is because you don't think there will be good jobs at the end of it, then we have to fix the jobs problem.

[MadisonProgressive]

107. I generally agree with everything you just said...

[CountAllVotes]

104. workers wages today - $25,000 (SD) - $46,000 (NY)

Most people are certainly NOT earning on the average $45,000.00 a year by a long shot.

Chart here:

http://www.bls.gov/cew/state2002.txt


:dem:

[girl gone mad]

101. I agree that their is growing anti-intellectualism in the country,

but it also exists on campuses.

I can't tell you how many people I knew who cheated throughout college. Some of my friends would look at me funny when I would talk about how much I liked a class.

Grade inflation at top universities has also created some intellectual laziness among even the best students. Why bother working hard if you can get an A just for showing up?

My husband didn't graduate to college, but I'd say his skills in his field easily surpass those of most college grads. I iknow many great writers, artists, inventors, etc. who either did not go to college or did not do well in college. I don't think that saying so makes me anti-intellectual. Perhaps part of the problem is that intellectuals and independent thinkers don't necessarily feel more welcome at Universities than they do anywhere else.

[shrike]

113. They are more likely to be welcome on a college campus

than they are among people who watch "Dog, the Bounty Hunter."

It's nice that your husband has such in-demand skills, but the fact of the matter is, most people are not born with the kind of innate talents that allow them to make a living. These people must acquire skills, and high school is not the place to do that. Very few companies offer on-the-job training anymore. Which is not to say college is the only answer -- the skilled trades pay extremely well.

[Jamastiene]

115. That seems to be one of my problems in college now

I'm surrounded by people who will do anything to keep from learning the material. You name the class and these people cheated their way through it. I found out that they stole my final exam in math from the teacher's books when no one was looking. They passed on my work. I didn't find out about it until too late to do anything about it. I worked hard to learn the material and these goof offs openly cheat.

[mattclearing]

59. Seconded.

I think education is over-marketed as a cure-all; simply put, if everyone got a degree, they would be pissed at the availability of jobs (they already are).

That said, not admitting the value of a college education sounds like wishful thinking or outright self-delusion.

Speaking as someone who is going back late after pursuing "a promising career in indie rock," not only is it never too late, and it is never a bad idea.

It gets your foot in the door, conveys institutional respect, and decorates the wall nicely.

[amazona]

69. because what's the point of telling us how great something is

...that so many people can't afford without crushing debt?

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[AP]

79. Because the battle over how to pay for college is a completely different

debate.

Yes, we have to elect politicians like John Edwards who understand the difference between a grant and a loan and who don't want to use people's efforts to move into the middle class as an opportunity to shave off a lot of the wealth created and give it to privately-owned banks and Wall St.

But staying out of college and relegating yourself to incredibly low earning potential is not going to solve that problem. You want to have no political power? You want to be a cheap input into the profits of a big corporation? By all means, don't get an education. Make 20k a year.

At the very least, try to go to school. Try to pay for as much of your college costs as possible. Hell, load up the credit cards with everything and use your cash to pay off your tuition expenses (because you can dissolve that debt in bankruptcy, but you can't dissolve student loans). Take 8 years to graduate from college and work two jobs to pay for it.

But don't NOT get an education.

If you have nothing in life to sell for money except your labor, the only way to make your labor more valuable is to learn something. Whether it's a trade school, college or graduate degree, people really should educate themselves.

[amazona]

98. I'm not debating, I'm explaining

Ever hear the fable of the sour grapes?

If something is impossible for people to get, they have no option but to discount the value of the out-of-reach object. It keeps them from being too bitter and sick at heart to function.

Yes, some people can work two jobs. Some people can get credit cards in college. Other people do not have the physical strength to work two jobs or even one jobs and also pass their course work. Many don't have the family resources to get a co-signor to get credit cards. Don't think everyone has credit cards. You would be shocked by how many don't and how inconvenient it is.

I did have a college degree in a science (physics) and it's pretty worthless, and I know so many people who are petroleum engineers or geologists who worked in their field a grand total of 5 years or less before the boom and bust nature of industry made their degrees worthless. They are worse off than if they had no degree, because now they can't get the little jobs either -- overqualified.

You have to get the degree AND you have to win the "jobs lottery" described by another poster. If you have the wrong degree in the wrong year and graduate into a recession in that field, you may never be able to work in that field -- ever -- yet you have made your chance of getting a fall-back job in sales or whatever much more difficult because people assume you will be a dissatisfied employee.

It is nice to roll the dice with the odds on your side. I never discourage anyone from attending college if they can. But, even with the odds on your side, an appreciable number of graduates will end up worse off. Not everyone can win the game.

So people become bitter. And this is why you see people so bitter about college.

Not saying they're right. Not saying anyone should pass up the college experience.

I'm just partly answering your question as to WHY some people are expressing sour grapes.

I am not bitter myself because I went to college in a day when my college was paid for. So I have nothing to complain about. But I might feel different if instead of being supported by grants and scholarships, I had been gouged for huge debts...just to end up today with my huge income in the high four figures. :-)

I would LOVE to take your advice and make 20K a year. But it ain't gonna happen.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[AP]

103. In an economy that is punishing people WITH educations, those without are

going to do even WORSE.

To repeat the point I made above, unless you're one of the rare few who have options and choices without getting a college degree (like Gates) you are crazy to think that in a bad economy you're going to do BETTER without a degree.

There are two real problems that this discussion here at DU is not grasping.

If you read some of these posts, you'd think the conventional wisdom at DU would be that you're better off without an education. That's so wrong.

The real issues are:

(1) affordability of an education. People who chose not to get an education because of its cost are generally not making themselves better off by doing that. They should find some way to get an education. And the rest of us should be arguing for better ways to fund education (fewer loans, more grants, lower state uni tuition costs, etc.)

(2) that the economy sucks. We have a disappearing middle class, and that's making it harder for people to go through college and get a good job at the other end. But if you want to accelarate the decline of the middle class, then lets have fewer people go to college. You just cannot run a society on the knowledge you get in high school. This isn't 1900. And you can't build up wealth in the middle class (which is a prerequisite for political power) with a nation of uneducated fast-food workers.

Yes, we have to find ways to build up the middle class again (through a bettter tax code, by stopping the massive shift of wealth away from people who work to people who live off unearned income and to CEOs, through a more competitive, less monopolistic/price-fixing economy so that people are paying fair prices for goods, etc.).

But none of this is going to happen if fewer people go to college.

[shrike]

42. AP is right

Unless you're an entrepreneur and want to start your own business, or you have a fantastic, native skill, such as the ability to fix things, a high-school-only diploma really limits your chances.

Of course, there are other options besides college. A big one is trade school. You would not believe what machinists earn. Or plumbers.

My step-son-in-law is a plumber and I joke with him that if he ever needed to escape Smirky's regime, any country in the world would take him.

[mike_c]

110. I've done it both ways....

Dropped out of high school. Got a GED some years later. Blue collar to the core. Went to college in my thirties (mostly), got my PhD at 39.

Having worked for my living both with and without a college degree since I was 15, and operating on the assumption that I was just as intelligent and able to perform my work without the degree as with it, I have to say that I'm MUCH happier with my work life now than I ever was before college. I make more money than I did then, but I don't make a lot of money and I'm sure there are ways that I could have made the same and more without my degree. The real benefit, IMO, is that I have many more choices now, and can choose to follow career paths that I enjoy, but which would certainly have been closed to me without my degrees.

on edit: in response to the folks you've cited the cost of college as a barrier, I can certainly relate to that. I come from a solidly working class family and am the only one to complete college, let alone get an advanced degree. I'll be in debt the rest of my life to repay my education costs. But it's the best investment I could possibly have made, IMO.

[HuckleB]

62. What if...

you only compared intelligent, motivated high school grads to intelligent motivated college grads?

I suspect you'd have the same result.

A BA/BS is the equivalent of a high school diploma 40-50 years ago. It's the starting point these days. And, looking around, I suspect that $1 Million figure may be low.

[One_Life_To_Give]

82. The other day on MSN

There were some statistics on the highest paying jobs for different educational levels. This was based on data from the Fed. But the part that caught my attention was Electrical/Electronic Engineering (my field) For a 2 year degree the pay average was mid 50's. But for 4 yrs and over the average was 60K higher.

[ArchTeryx]

22. It's no guarantee.

I've seen many PhDs -- even in highly employable fields like the biological sciences -- relegated to cheap labor for a lifetime.

Why? Because they lost the specialty lottery. it isn't just getting an education, it's getting an education in EXACTLY the right hot field of the moment, and graduating when that field is hiring.

It's a pure corporate lottery, plain and simple. While I agree with the college correlation studies, it entirely leaves out the fact that the job lottery is INDEPEDENT of one's degree, and ENTIRELY dependent on one's field -- degree or none.

-- ArchTeryx

[thinkingwoman]

23. Well said!

You've got it exactly right. If only I hadn't borrowed tens of thousands of dollars from the government to get a college education that has done me no damn good.

All I am is more in debt. It's frustrating.

[ArchTeryx]

26. *smile*

Thank you kindly for the post. I'm hoping that I 'picked right' myself -- I ended up in virology, which does have some applicability in today's environment. Employability? Just have to see.

I wish you the best of luck, though. What is your degree in?

-- ArchTeryx

[thinkingwoman]

70. English

with a sociology minor.

I picked poorly.

Actually, most of my work experience for the last 20 years has been in journalism. I'm currently editing and publishing a weekly newspaper, but I'm leaving that at the end of the month.

Your degree was a much better choice.

[ArchTeryx]

106. Majors and graduate degrees/

Thing is, I didn't go for it with employability in mind. I went for it because I discovered I was a natural science geek in high school, and a natural lab rat early in college.

And I've had second thoughts at times too. Science has far more jobs then the liberal arts, but there are also far more science graudates searching for those jobs, which still makes it difficult to get a *real* job.

I really wish you the best of luck, though. I have *great* respect for liberal arts, and the arts in general, and think that it flat out stinks that there aren't more ways to parlay those majors into a living.

-- ArchTeryx

[AP]

39. Big business tends to figure out who has the money, and then they take it.

401Ks getting big? Let's have a tech stock bubble.

Middle class putting lots of money in S and Ls? Let's do a Silverado and have a crisis.

People putting all their savings into their homes? Let's have a real estate bubble.

Often the government assists with friendly legislation and by looking the other way.

It used to be that colleges gave grants (like Pell), but that's free money. There's no interest profit component for the banks

So, OK, a college education is worth 1 million dollars. Let's get rid of grants. Let's pass a law that makes it so that student loans can't be dissolved in bankruptcy. There you go. Banks get a huge chunk of profit out of people trying to enter the middle class.

This doesn't mean that a college degree isn't worth the money. It means that we should elect politicians like John Edwards who proposed that the gov't should give a GRANT of one year tuition to people who work 10 hrs/wk in state colleges (which reduces your principle by 1/3rd, and it gives you the income from the 10hr/week job (I presume) to pay down the other 2/3rds even more, reducing the amount you have to finance).

And then you vote for other democrats who want to stand in between your wallet and people who want your money and put a hand in their face and say, "play fair."

[AP]

37. It's obviously no guarantee, but it cerainly correlates strongly with...

...higher average salaries.

No college degree, you're more likely to have a 30k/yr job. College degree, you're more likely to have a 50k/yr job. Over 45 years, no raises, ignoring time value of mone, that's a 900k lifetime difference.

[ArchTeryx]

57. Oh, no disagreement there...

If I actually manage to get one of the increasingly rare PhD-level jobs in my field, I'll probably end up in a pretty high income bracket.

(Though nowhere near the top, unless I whore myself out to a management track at some Big Pharma company, or start my own consulting business and hit it big. Alot of scientists seem to be doing both these days, but that's a tale for another time).

-- ArchTeryx

[AP]

60. At the very least, many employers use NOT having a college deg. as excuse

not to give you a raise/promotion.

And no matter how arbitrary that seems, the investment in the education is probably worth at least that difference.

[ArchTeryx]

63. Yep.

Be interesting if my native pessimism proves wrong and I end up as one of the so-called societal elite. If that's the case, it will be my education that drives it.

(I'll probably end up like my advisor, chairman of his program more or less because nobody else really wanted the job. He picked a niche research area with little of the nasty competition in larger areas, lives in a low-end McMansion in a nice part of town with his scientist wife, and is as die-hard a liberal and political activist as they come. He also happens to be a honest, ethical advisor :).

-- ArchTeryx

[solinvictus]

83. Doctorates...

Not to mention the politics of applying for post doc postions or obtaining a teaching spot at a university. Here, 7 years ago, an open professorship in the philosophy department drew about 500 applicants.

[mike_c]

112. just for balance....

I'm currently on one of my department's search committees. Our seach for an ecologist drew about 150 applicants, but about 1/3 of those didn't meet our basic requirements. Searches for a botanist and a bioinformaticist drew far fewer applications, in the 30-40 range. My sense is that the majority of those people will get jobs in their field. The days of career post-doc slavery are largely over for many with PhDs in biological sciences, especially those looking for careers in academic science.

[Sterling]

111. Funny I went for poli sci and ended up making a lot of money

in the music biz. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

[GOPBasher]

88. I'm a physics major, too.

I've found so many physics majors on this forum. It's really cool! Is it because all smart people become liberals, or because the right is increasing hostile to science as they pander to the Christian theocrats? :shrug:

Anyway, nice to meet you! :hi:

[amazona]

99. it's because nerds...

...are still more likely to participate on internet forums than the average person. :-)

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[GOPBasher]

108. True. nt :-)

[girl gone mad]

102. Hello.

Maybe people in the antural sciences tend to be skeptical thinkers. To be a Republican these days is to be a "true believer".

Also, I'm sure the hostility to science has something to do with it.

Have you graduated yet?

[GOPBasher]

109. Yeah, I'm a physics teacher.

You?

[Jamastiene]

117. You teach physics?

I've always wanted to know someone who knows a lot about physics. Do you ever just answer questions asked by someone who knows very little, but has lofty ideas?

[GOPBasher]

119. Well..

I didn't say I know a *lot* about physics; I just teach it. hehe But seriously, yeah, sometimes my friends ask questions. I love it when people are interested in it, particularly because I'm such a geek and it's so interesting to me. :-)

[KDLarsen]

118. You've got that right..

.. my dad has a masters in economics - and he's currently working as an IT head hunter/job consultant. He did, however, work for a good period of time with one of the major credit companies in Denmark, but left after his company was bought up (official name: Merger).

[egoprofit]

50. i haven't gone to college yet and i make pretty good cash..

i'm a highschool dropout and i work at Hewlett-Packard's corporate campus. I do plan to attend college later on but right now i'm enjoying my job...

The thing is, I really don't know what i want to do and working in the computer industry is very shaky...

[Lorien]

75. Doing the job of your dreams, then?

I couldn't have gotten a job as a college instructor without a degree, obviously. Even as an artist, I've florished were my non-degreed co-workers have failed now that our studio has folded and all of us are self employed. Talent alone will only get you so far; a good education takes you all the way there.

[coloradodem2005]

3. Yeah. College helps people earn more $$$. Look at me.

<sarcasm>

[kypper]

80. Don't I know it...

close to my BSC in biochem, but have no idea what I'll do with it.

-------------------

[rwenos]

4. So D'Ya Want Fries With That?

The thing you said the most often, on your first day of work, right?

[lovuian]

6. I think College is great for some people. Its the only time

in a person's life they get to think on their own.
So much of an American's life is indoctrination till you get there...

[EC]

7. I agree, have two degrees

didn't like the professions that went with them, so now I don't even list them on resumes, but I would have been perfectly happy being a professional student...

[WindRavenX]

8. more and more people are being shut out from college

My grants were 7K less this year thanks to reductions in Federal Pell Grants. It's becoming harder and harder to pay for college...

[mudderfudder77]

28. Harder and Harder to pay for college or...

Harder to pay for the college you want to go to. There are plenty of state schools that are dirt cheap, I should know that's where I had to go. The money is out there, you just have to use it appropriately.

[dean_dem]

38. And then are plenty of state schools that aren't dirt cheap...

...I'm currently getting reamed by one of them. The only way i justify it is that most people my age have gotten $30,000 in debt for a new car, mine is going to my education.

But the fact that people are too rich to afford aid, but too poor to pay out of pocket is a reality. And that goes for any school, not just the first-picks. I've been frighteningly close to that point, but I was one of the lucky ones.

[shrike]

43. No kidding n/t

[MountainLaurel]

85. Been there, done that

Am $20K in debt from a state institution for a master's degree necessary to move ahead in my profession (libraries), except that so many places are eliminating positions for degreed librarians and filling them with paraprofessionals that I may not be able to use the degree after all.

[conflictgirl]

73. I go to a dirt-cheap state school but I need big loans anyway

I have to pay for childcare for my kids while I'm in school, and I need the loans to do that. My only option IS the dirt-cheap state school despite having a 3.88 GPA.

[trogdor]

33. Heard just this morning...

...that they want to raise tuition at SUNY by $500/semester. We have money in the state budget for "member items," but none for the state universities. I've been telling people for years that Gov. Pataki refuses to lead, and this is just one thing out of many that proves it. All it would take is to get up and say, "look here. You people spend state money on some really stupid shit like restoring old barns, and you can't come up with any money for SUNY? WTF is the matter with you people?"

[Maeve]

34. Ohio has gone from one of the most affordable states to one of the least

When I went to OSU, it was possible to work part-time and go full time--that's just not true anymore.

[Jamastiene]

116. as in thousand?

You had 7,000 worth of Pell Grants and you say grants not grant? What am I missing. I only have one and it covers school, but only the one school . I want to take classes at another school as well because they offer more. I'd be interested if you know of a way to maximize what we get. I know I'm not getting much at all.

[tooncesj0nes]

9. I was in Peru in the spring...

..there is no chance of college for many of the people, no matter how bright or motivated they may be...for someone to be unmotivated in America is a strong indicator of how well we have it...

[HuckleB]

55. Indeed...

[starroute]

10. College is no longer paying off in access to decent jobs

My son, who graduated in May, and his friend who graduated in December are currently filling out applications for sales positions in retail stores. Another one of my son's college friends is selling hot dogs at the mall, and the son of a friend of ours who graduated a year earlier is working in a shoe store. There are simply no entry level positions available for anyone just out of college, at least not around here. They only want people with several years of experience and have no interest in anyone they'd have to train.

I do know of one kid their age who is now out in LA doing contract labor on a day-by-day basis as a video cameraman and one other who has an engineering job -- at least, he does if he can keep it after the three month probationary period. All the rest are scrambling. I have no idea what they'll be doing if things are still like this four years from now.

(Formenting revolution, probably. Dumping members of the middle class into minimum-wage jobs is a great recipe for social upheaval, because they're educated enough to know how the system works and angry enough to want to trash it. And no, I don't think that would be a good thing.)

[barb162]

11. I think every kid I know who graduated in the last two yrs. is

doing junk jobs...one is teaching swimming at the YMCA though she has a degree in forestry, another is working as a "sort of" paralegal, another bags groceries, etc. It is harder than ever for the college grads to get jobs when all the jobs are getting shipped overseas. When are the people of the country going to wake up already?

[davekriss]

12. Fomenting Revoltion

That's why the U.S. is militarizing many police force. Look at the WTO protests in Seattle in 1999, the FTAA protests in Miami in 2003, the lockdowns in NYC and Boston during the conventions, or the Beruit blockade look and feel to Washington DC during the Inaugural. For that matter, look at December 12 2000, Patriot I, CAPPS, the various stealth introductions of "Patriot II". They are preparing for the angry hordes!

[Autobot77]

19. I know what you mean

I had to take a cust service job because I could not find a job in my field (graphic arts). Now I'm unemployed and even the shitty jobs are asking for ridiculous requirements.
It's "who you know not what you know", kinda like shrub. The college grads who are from rich and upper middle class families with connections are getting the plum jobs. Those who are lower middle class and poor get the leftover shit. More and more I'm beginning to think asking for "experience" is a clever way to keep the Riff-Raff out.
Pretty soon, it'll be just the ultra-rich.... and Wal-mart employees.

[shrike]

44. Is that the fault of college or Shrub's economy, though?

During the Clinton boom I heard of young people fielding three, four offers, and not just in tech jobs. I was jealous (sigh).

[AP]

13. So long Middle Class. We hardly knew you.

The Golden Age of the American Economy: Born 1945, took ill in 1974, and died in 2001.

RIP.

[davekriss]

20. You got that right

What most people don't know is that the "middle class" -- a group of people who could raise a family, buy a house and a car, take vacations, own a color TV (and today a computer), and retire in security -- is a historical abberation, seen only post WWII and peaking in 1973; in steady decline thereafter until now on the brink of extinction.

What our parents and grandparents fought and struggled to establish has been under steady attack for many years. Soon we will fall back to the traditional stuctures of a small, very weel-to-do owning class, a thin sliver of managers and magistrates that service that class, and all the rest of us, the great unwashed masses. "Cannon fodder" to GHWB (in words and actions) and GWB (in actions); "useless eaters" to Kissinger. Mesmerized into passive non-participation after being isolated in front of their TV's where they're feed a steady slop of Orwellian untruth that dulls their faculties beyond repair, they become good fodder and eat less for the glory of the fascist Fatherland. Heil Fuhrur! Heil Gee Dubya!!

Think back prior to the New Deal programs during the Great Depression. Think back to the twenties and before. See those shoeless kids working the mines in 12 hour shifts? Those laborers digging ditches in the rain? Those dull morose faces spreading ketschup and mustard on animal fat smeared on a bun and called "fast food"? (Hey, they're now in the sought after "manufacturing jobs"!)

There will be Dickens and Zolas and Balzacs and Stendhals chronicaling our future days for us.

[AP]

58. It's amazing how little the anxieties about this percolate to the surface.

I do think that John Edwards's campaign tapped into anxieties about work and opportunity and the disappearanc of the middle class. I think his improbably success is almost entirely due to the fact that he was the one who talked the most about these issues.

And I'm sure the anxieties are out there.

But the MSM is spending no time at all trying to tap into them and represent them.

[solinvictus]

86. Lou Dobbs on CNN

is the sole voice in the wilderness on economic issues. I wonder how long it'll take before they can him?

[SoCalDem]

14. My oldest didn't even graduate from H.S.and has a mid 6 figure income

It's not always education and a piece of paper that gets you the great jobs.. Luck, persistence and innate skills cannot be overlooked:)

We were devastated when he dropped out of HS, but he would not have the job he has now, if he had gone the traditional route..

There's just no "formula" anymore.. That's what's so stressful to most people.. They feel as if they are "doing everything right" and there's no pay-off anymore..

There was a time when things progressed in an orderly fashion, and people did actually "plan their lives". No one can do that these days..

[AP]

16. Statistics don't lie: don't graduate from college and the deck is stacked

heavily against your favor.

Obvioulsy, for a few, luck or some extraordinary skill that doesn't need to be nurtured in college will help you beat the odds.

But if that were the rule and not the exception for people without college degrees, there wouldn't be a 1 million dollar difference in lifetime earning potential between college grads and HS-only grads.

[SoCalDem]

17. We ALL know how LUCKY he is.. He has taken courses and may someday

have that "piece of paper", but it's not his driving force..

I think he regrets his high school years, but at 31 he's come to terms with it..

We are thrilled with his success, considering that we always told him he would end up at KMart:)

[thinkingwoman]

24. statistics don't lie?

ha

haha


hahaha


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


Oh, wait, you were serious?


hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[RawMaterials]

25. does that 1 million dollar difference

include the 50G's that i have to loan out for my education and the additional 75G's or so in interest that i will have to pay back. I went to a state college and I come from a poor family, GOD help the students that come from the middle class and don't get any aid.

[AP]

40. See post 36 and post 39

[shrike]

46. Not my nephew

He dropped out of school because "he didn't need it." Someone had offered him a good job. Well, the job didn't last and he has struggled ever since. A lot of doors are closed to him. There are a number of excellent skilled trade programs in our area, but they require a GED. I think he is too afraid, and stubborn, to get the GED.

[HuckleB]

61. There are always exceptions to everything.

But exceptions are not the rule.

[Xipe Totec]

94. Not everyone is motivated by money

and a college education is not a guaranteed ticket to good fortune. It does however improve the chances of drawing a living wage. I didn't go to college to become rich, though that was my parent's hope. I went there because I was genuinely interested in learning. That is what is the source of my enjoyment in life. I am not rich, but I am also not poor. My younger brother on the other hand did not go to college. Instead he went into business; he was interested in commerce from a very young age. With funding from my parents he started one enterprise after another. All of them were failures, except the last one. He now owns his own company and employs hundreds of people in several countries. He is very rich and successful.

But he is not happy. He has become a slave to his fortune and lives in fear that someday he will lose it all. I don't know why, because he has been very successful now for over two decades, but still he always worries....

[Jamastiene]

18. I'm in community college

but I am seriously thinking about quitting. I am in for an Electrical diploma and really would like a degree in computers, but the local establishment has really made me feel like I don't belong amidst them. I may quit 2 years in and less than 3 months to go if it doesn't get better soon. Teachers, counselers, and others haven't fixed the situation. I hate it.

[mudderfudder77]

29. So you'd quit,

Because they don't make you feel like you belong? I'm sorry to say, but good luck finding employers that are cuddly. You have to do it for personal satisfaction.

[Jamastiene]

114. No

there is more to it. I'd have to write a book to explain it all here. It has to do with having the best grades in most of my classes if not all yet being the last in line for a chance to go any where with it. I'm not in the right field to begin with because I was badly placed by my counseler to begin with. Female in all male classes in an all male field. When was the last time anyone ever heard of a female electrician? Doesn't happen for a reason. I hate it now. I just want out.

[LWolf]

27. Both of my sons passed on college.

They are 25 and 27.

Why?

They watched me become the first person on either side of their extended family to earn a college degree, while I was raising them and working a day job to support them. They saw the long hours, the exhaustion, the having no life part. And they see me now, still paying student loans to pay for that opportunity.

My oldest son finished his AA at our local community college, and looked at transferring to a 4 year school. He didn't qualify for grants; even though he was 21 and didn't live at home any more, they still use my income to qualify him, not his own, and I made too much money. Not enough to pay his tuition AND make the payments on my own student loans, though.

So he looked at student loans, calculated what his end debt would be and how much he would have to make to pay it, and how long it would take, and compared that to what he was interested in getting a degree in. They didn't match. He could take a degree in something he wasn't interested in, and earn enough to pay off the cost of the degree. He could pursue his loves and interests, music and literature, and carry his educational debt the rest of his life. He did neither.

He got a job in the private sector, where, by the 3rd year, he was making as much money as I, on fewer hours, with no student loans.

If we really want to open the doors of opportunity to all, we need universal pre-school - college or trade school. The college or trade-school part doesn't have to be compulsory, but we ought to be making sure that all people have equal access to training and education.

[cap]

30. it's not just about getting a "good job"

an education is about deepening your soul... Enjoyment of Music and literature are deepened with good professors. When material isnt taught in a structured way you have large gaps in your knowledge that you arent even aware of -- I know. I have self taught myself in a variety of areas.

An education should be valued and it should be rewarded with a sense of security. Our parents had it right.

[AP]

41. It's about getting a great job. Where else are you going to find a career

services office interested in you succeeding, professors with connections willing to help you out, people who will write recommendations for you, a network of alumni and friends all moving into the middle class?

And that's on top of the great education.

[amazona]

100. people don't take out tens of thousands of dollars in loans

...to deepen their soul. Who but the richest could afford that? College is a hoop to be jumped in hopes of increasing your chance of getting decent employment.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[LWolf]

105. Yes and no.

It shouldn't be about the job. But if you come from working poor people who cannot support you and pay your expenses through school, and you are faced with both working to support yourself while you are getting the education and then working for many years to pay off the loans when you are done, it suddenly becomes about the job. If the kind of career you'll have won't pay the debt, it's about the job.

The only time it is really not about the job is when the family is well-off enough to easily provide the $$$, and the student knows he/she doesn't have to worry about the wolf at the door during his/her lifetime.

I'll go out on a limb and guess that the majority of students leaving high school fall into the category where their education has to be about the job and the $$.

If it's not about the job, it's definitely about the cost. I would have finished both masters I started years ago if I could afford the tuition. Unfortunately, I don't make enough money to pay cash, and can't afford any more debt until the first round of student loans is paid off.

[Rose Siding]

31. People with degrees are more likely to participate in politics

Of COURSE there are exceptions but a lack of access to college will be disastrous politically.

snip>
More than any other single factor, education predisposes citizens to participate in politics and to vote. As the middle class shrinks and the upper-middle class expands, the upscale bias of the electorate — those who actually turn out to vote — has expanded out of proportion to what would be expected simply given the increased share of highly educated people in the population. An analysis I coauthored with political scientist and longtime Gore aide Elaine C. Kamarck in 1998 showed that while the percentage of Americans in the voting-age population with college degrees had risen from 15 percent to 22 percent between 1980 and 1996, the percentage of college-educated voters had increased from 28 percent to 43 percent. During this same period, the percentage of voters with less than a high school education had fallen even more rapidly than had their share of the voting-age population.
...
I examined the 27 states for which we had presidential exit polls in 1992, we found that, on average, 38 percent of the Democratic primary voters in those states had a college or post-graduate degree while only 20 percent of the voting-age population in those states had a college or graduate degree. We also found that the largest decline in participation had occurred among members of the electorate lacking a high school degree. Over time, the historically low participation levels of these voters had decreased in all 11 states for which we possess continuous data — sometimes by as much as 50 percent.
...
Based on a traditional class analysis, one would have expected the shift toward a society and electorate dominated by upper-middle-class professionals to work in favor of the party that has historically championed upscale economic interests. But as John Judis and Ruy Teixeira argue in The Emerging Democratic Majority, the reality is more complex. For much of the twentieth century, professionals tended to identify with corporate managers and were among the most Republican of occupational groups. As late as 1960, they supported Nixon over Kennedy by a margin of 61 to 38. By 1980, however, fully 15 percent of professionals supported John Anderson’s blend of social liberalism and fiscal moderation. In part because of his critique of Reagan’s budget deficits, Mondale got 45 percent of the professional vote, 4 points higher than his overall total. Dukakis, Clinton, and Gore have all won solid majorities of this growing sector: In the four most recent presidential elections, professionals have backed the Democratic nominee by an average margin of 52 to 40.

Judis and Teixeira propose two principal explanations for this shift. First, professionals came increasingly to prize nonmarket occupational values such as creativity and autonomy, which often put them at odds with the imperatives of mainstream corporate life. Second, during their college years, many aspiring professionals were influenced by movements for civil rights, women’s rights, the environment, and (during the 1960s and 1970s) by the antiwar movement as well. We can only speculate about the impact of the controversy over Iraq on the next generation of professionals. That the members of this new professional class have increased in absolute terms and their political voice has been magnified bodes well for the Democratic party. But it cannot win the presidency on the coattails of this class alone.

William A. Galston is Saul I. Stern Professor and acting dean at the University of Maryland's School of Public Policy. From 1993 until 1995 he was Deputy Assistant for Domestic Policy to President Clinton.

http://www.thepublicinterest.com/previous/article2.html

[Samurai_Writer]

32. My son is 23 and has never gone to college...

He started working right after high school at a tile manufacturer/distributer in their warehouse. Four years later, he is their shipping and receiving manager. I keep asking if he wants to go to college, but he does not want to a)give up the job he has to go to school, and b)give up the independence he has had for the past 3 years of living on his own.

Also, I think he is a bit afraid of failing, because he had such a hard time in school, being ADD. He was an "A or F" kid -- classes he found interesting, he'd get all As in... classes he didn't like or found difficult, he failed.

I haven't asked him about college in about a year. I figure if he really wanted to go, he'd bring it up. He already knows I would help pay for it.

[shrike]

45. College is not for everyone

My husband has a long string of credits at Purdue (did very well) but never got a degree because he just pursued what interested him. Maybe your son might want to do that at some point.

[Lilith Velkor]

95. That's what I did.

Never got a degree, just pursued what interested me. Eventually, I stopped paying because I realized I was learning more on my own.

I'm homeless and mentally ill right now, but a lot of that's just tough luck and having made some bad choices. You know anyone needs a researcher with PTSD?

[PeacePal]

47. Poly Sci 101, Sociology 101...dangerous to the monarchy!

Granted, you can be a worker bee and make big bucks without a degree, or with a technical degree...the neocons like it that way

[VegasWolf]

48. Just on a positive note, I thoroughly enjoyed my college years.

I graduated and had a great career where I was able to
travel and see the world. College opened many closed
doors for me, both internal and external ones.

[Chico Man]

51. College is an investment, and as such, has risks

I'm glad to see that young American's are starting to think this way. College should not be compulsory based on societal pressures.

[shrike]

52. Being that many young adults leave high school barely literate

at least from what I've read recently, I suppose it's no wonder many of them are passing on college.

I think our educational system has problems from top to bottom.

[nashville_brook]

66. college is NOT a ticket -- it's an EDUCATION

this isn't for everyone -- but it bucks the received wisdom, so i thought i would contibute:

when i was in school is was fashionable to get the mighty BUSINESS degree. my degree in philosophy and graduate work in social theory. i went into publishing and advertising by starting my own business -- THAT WAS MY TICKET. i took out 20K in loans for school and 30K in loans for my biz. the first 20 was for my mind -- the second 30 was for my future.

my husband played in a rock band and took classes in art history, phil and computer science -- but never graduated. his TICKET was being a businessman in the form of running a band and later running a newspaper.

here's the rub -- if we didn't have REAL EDUCATIONS we wouldn't have had anything to *contribute* in terms of starting either business. our first areas of business were in cultural production and having a solid education is very important to that. but no one cares when you send them your resume if you read Voltaire or not. but it matters a whole lot when your resume says "business owner" "manager" "editor" etc.

here's another aside -- my husband is now a software developer and we are able to be a one-income family. HE DOESN'T HAVE A DEGREE, and (ta da daDA) neither do many of the other computer geeks he works with. most of the people he works with came to computers from MUSIC -- so if any of you have sons or daughters who would rather play in a band than go to college full-time... encourage it! it's a great education in terms of being a TICKET. being in a band is a BUSINESS. and playing music exercises the part of the mind that also does logic-stuff that can be applied to areas like computeer science. music is a language. programming is a language. playing in a band is a buisness with marketing, distribution and production cycles. it teaches self-reliance. it's the best thing ever.

but take art history and literature, too. :)

[todwest]

67. I , too, passed on college when I was a kid . . .

. . . and I now regret it (I'm in my early forties).

I decided to do something about it, however, and I'm now in my senior year majoring in English literature with a minor in creative writing.

What I find most interesting about this experience is that I now absolutely love school, whereas I hated it when I was a kid. I don't know why this is, precisely, but I think it has to do with a combination of factors. First, I am a bit older and wiser. Secondly, I am spending my own money (well, Uncle Sam's money, anyway, most of which I will have to pay back). Third, and perhaps most important, I now enjoy knowledge for the sake; I'm simply enjoying the learning process, itself. Grades are secondary to me, though I've managed to maintain a 3.81 GPA, something I never would have achieved as a younger student.

What is most important to me is that I actually absorb the knowledge such that I can recall it at a later time. Call it creating a foundation upon which I can build most post-graduate career, be it in the business world (unlikely), or any number of fine graduate programs (likely). Right now I intend to continue on to get a PhD in English so that I can qualify teach on the college level. It's a competitive market, I know, but I have every confidence that I can succeed in this endeavor.

Anyway, for those of you who want to go back to school, it's never too late. You might actually find that you actually enjoy yourself, and there is also the added perk of the occasional twenty-something with an uncle complex -- I'm still single ;)

[happynewyear]

72. congratulations!

I am glad you've gone back to college to finish up your education. I have a lot of education myself and I do not regret having it one bit. It is a shame that many young people today do not care to pursue a college education. There are community colleges which do not cost that much. Not everyone "can't afford it" is how I believe personally. If you want to go to an Ivy League college or something fancy, be prepared for big bucks and you need rich parents. I did not come from such a background.

I did it the hard way - worked 40+ hours a week and attended college at night for many years. I finally graduated cum laude and I am to this day proud of having a graduate degree for it has given me tools to use in life that I would not have today. No one can take my two degrees away from me, no one.

As for loans, well I did not have any being I paid as I went. I graduated from 2 different State colleges and I enjoyed the experience very much! :D

:kick:

[LaReservaPr]

71. I am a statistic...

I'm 18 and i was going to study Advertising but one month before college began i woke up and had a change of heart. I'm going to study Sociology next year. But for now i just hang aroung the house and be lazy. 1 yr of peace is a very good thing.

[b...]

74. oy that's true!

can i come hang out with you?!?

i got popcorn... and beer!

[enki23]

76. good for me, i guess....(?)

makes my degrees worth more in the future, i suppose. but it's an ominous sign for the nation. wasn't bush supposed to be "the education president?"

i suppose that's like him being a "peace president." and being a humble president, and bringing dignity back to the whitehouse. the only one he's lived up to is "war president," though he fucked that one all up too.

[VegasWolf]

91. bush is the eddycated president. n/t

[American Tragedy]

81. I'm in college and I enjoy it, but it really is just a ticket to a degree

I have learned far more through writing and reading independently than through any school activities, and merely holding a particular degree is hardly an indication of intelligence or even of education. As an example, my mother never went beyond high school, yet she is more articulate, cultured, competent, and well-read than many of her friends who hold Master's degrees.

[William Bloode]

96. I never went because of the way things were set up in our public schools.

Here in the once largely textile manufacturing town, they had 2 programs of study for you in school. I remember clearly, on career day group one, which was made up of upper middle class and upper class students went to see a film about college and the careers available there. Sadly the largest part of us, who were children of the mill workers.......well we went to see about a job in the mills.

It was like we were almost discouraged from even attempting college. We were even put into lower quality classes. I have been shown to have an I.Q. of 121, yet i was never in classes such as algebra, or chemistry.

I was one of the lucky ones though. I did end up with two very nice jobs where i made a very good wage. I was a knitting machine fixer, and a cushion regulator. I was making $40,000 in the fixing job which was outsourced. I then got the job as a cushion regulator, my last yr of which i made $62,000. That job to has been outsourced.

Again i am lucky in that i was smart enough to save money every week, paid off my house long ago, and carry no debt what so ever. Now the best job to be found is at McDonald's, or Wilmar. I won't work for either and now split my time between paper delivery and doing landscaping type work for myself.

Good news is i now have time to go after my dream of higher education. Part of it is i always wanted this, and the other is i feel i am teaching my children by example. I think it reflects well on them, and will encourage them to pursue higher education.

I would be happy to see them go. The benefit i see for them is not the money or the job potential. It is to me the critical thinking, creative thinking, and advance reasoning skills you will obtain in the realms of higher education. College gives you the skills to use your mind in ways it may take you years to discover on your own. I have allot of these skills, hard earned on my own, but it took many more years than it would have had i had guidance.

One of the easiest ways to keep the rabble down is through ignorance. God forbid they actually learn to think for themselves.