Patriot Act debate needless, Ashcroft says

[Nottingham]

Patriot Act debate needless, Ashcroft says
By ERIC LICHTBLAU
New York Times

WASHINGTON -- After months of increasingly noisy protests, fears of Big Brother run amok and government warnings about needless "hysteria," the Justice Department gave its first public accounting on Thursday of how many times it has used its newfound counter-terrorism powers to demand records from libraries and elsewhere.

The answer is zero.

Department officials and their supporters pointed to the goose egg as evidence that the raging public debate over the government's expanded powers has been much ado about nothing. In this case, they argued, public fear and mistrust of government appear to have outpaced the reality of what federal agents are actually doing.

But the disclosure by Attorney General John Ashcroft, who said he grudgingly agreed to declassify the data on demands for library records to counter "misinformation," is unlikely to end the debate soon.

Ashcroft's opponents said they remained deeply concerned over the government's far-reaching powers under the legislation formally known as the USA Patriot Act, and they said the Justice Department added to public fears by maintaining such tight secrecy over its activities.

more...
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2108405
"There's real concern about the scope of the government's unchecked powers," he said. "And it's the things the government is doing that we can see that has us worried about what we can't see."

I love this quote! :bounce:

[wtmusic]

1. It's not used...

GOOD!! Let's get rid of it!!

[Nottingham]

3. Thats right WtMusic!

Libraries are important and shouldn't be under scrutiny by the government

Next we will be burning Libraries and Books next!

[indepat]

9. Why couldn't I and they have thought of

that easy solution?

[Democat]

2. Lying Liars

Why start believing them now?

[Melsky]

4. They haven't used it, so we are making a big deal over nothing

so if I have a bomb in my house, that I conceivably could use, but haven't, that means the government shouldn't worry about it.

P.S. I don't have any bombs, it's just an example.

[Nottingham]

5. Riiiiiiiiiight Melsky! ....Ascroft will look at your Library card next

:bounce: Just kidding! Baaawaahaa

[ibegurpard]

7. Do you remember the story about using provisions of the Patriot Act

to prosecute PayPal for some kind of internet gambling? That is about as clear an abuse as I can think of.

[MissMillie]

22. good point

I like the way you think....

[punpirate]

6. A big hmmmm???

This contradicts what Nat Hentoff wrote in the Village Voice about a year and a half ago:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0209/hentoff.php

and an AP story published by the Washington Post in June, 2002 (which the WP now says is not in their archives). I believe it ran under the headline in the WP, "FBI Begins Visiting Libraries."

By its nature, the law prevents checking at the source--librarians and bookstore owners would be under gag orders preventing them from either confirming or denying being served warrants for information.

Maybe Ashcroft is being coy--perhaps no warrants were ever executed at libraries, but instead, at bookstores. Perhaps by saying no warrants were executed, he avoided mention of the fact that libraries and bookstores were visited by the FBI, and/or mention that, perhaps, people were intimidated into providing information without warrant.

Whatever. If the booksellers or librarians can't come forward to contradict Ashcroft because of gag orders, how is anyone to know?

Besides, the central issue is that the law permits it, and Ashcroft's announcement is simply to head off Congress from proceeding on a bill to eliminate that provision.

The other question I have is that if there have been _no_ warrants executed, then there is no list of libraries served with warrants, so, how is it that the "list" had to be declassified in order to release it?

Cheers.

[soup]

14. Sometimes, you make just Too Much Sense

"The other question I have is that if there have been _no_ warrants executed, then there is no list of libraries served with warrants, so, how is it that the "list" had to be declassified in order to release it?"

Drape yourself, put your calico cat in an escape-proof carrier, pack your bag with annointing oil and wait by the curb, citizen.


From the American Booksellers Foundation For Free Expression:

>snip<
Under the new law, the director of the FBI may seek an order "for any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities." The request for such an order is made to a judge who sits in a special court that is sometimes called the "spy court." The judge makes his decision "ex parte," meaning there is no opportunity for you or your lawyer to object in court. You cannot object publically either. The new law includes a gag order that prevents you from disclosing "to any other person" the fact that you have received an order to produce documents.
>snip<
Although the wording of the law seems to suggest that contacting anyone about the court order is forbidden, it is ABFFE's belief that you remain entitled to legal counsel. Therefore, you may call your attorney and/or ABFFE. Because of the gag order, however, you should not tell ABFFE that you have received a court order under FISA. You can simply tell us that you need to contact ABFFE's legal counsel.
http://www.abffe.com/fisa_letter.html

[papau]

8. They wait for Patriot Act II - then they will use all of the new powers.

But if they have gone 2 years without using Patriot Act I - why have this "possible" termination of some rights on the books?

[havocmom]

10. Is is a trap for librarians?

If any patriotic (in the true sense) librarian has been approached by fed agents on this thing, and comes forward to blow the whistle on Whistle Ass' AG, that person would be violating a provision of the law, no?

Some of those librarians have been pretty upfront and militant about finding ways to dump the data on patrons' borrowing histories and letting the public know about this travesty. Perhaps A$$croft is trying to flush out the opposition. Make statements that some librarians may personally know are false, wait for the whistle blower, then make an exapmle of them to shut everybody else up. Hey, they can't just shell a hotel where librarians are staying like they did to stop any honesty from the reporters in Iraq(well, not just yet, anyway.)

[LeftHander]

11. Ashcroft needless Patriots say.....

BwahahahahahahahHAHAHAHAH!

[displacedtexan]

19. whatever you do...

DON'T THROW ME INTO THE BRAIR PATCH!

[prolesunited]

12. Good quotes

“Lack of privacy and confidentiality has a chilling effect on users’ choices. All users have a right to be free from any unreasonable intrusion into or surveillance of their lawful library use.” —  Privacy: An Interpretation of the Library Bill of Rights

“Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.” — Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, Olmstead v. U.S. (1928)

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” — Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

“Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech.” — Benjamin Franklin

“As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.” — Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

[havocmom]

13. wonderful quotes! (n/t)

[Jack Rabbit]

15. Critique of Ashcroft's position

Mr. Ashcroft is arguing for more police powers that may erode civil liberties. He says they are necessary to fight terrorism. Yet he now claims that he doesn't use the police powers already granted to him. So why does he need more?

Of course, that question arises by taking what Ashcroft says at face value. We should know by now that taking the word of a leading official of the Bush junta at face value is hazardous. Other junta officials have been telling us for some time that Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction and have implied strongly that he was assoiciated with the September 11 attacks. So, when Ashcroft says he hasn't used his powers under the Patriot Act, I don't know if he can be believed.

As for debate about the Patriot Act, perhaps Ashcroft is right in saying that it is unnecessary. There is no question in my mind that it should be repealed.

[AntiCoup2K4]

16. And in today's MSNBC News flashback: Berlin, 1939.........

Attorney General Goering responded to critics of the Hitler administration....

"Those big ovens we're building over in Auschwitz? Oh, that's nothing to be concerned about. Der Fuhrer just loves to cook pizza!"

[trogdor]

17. We haven't used nuclear weapons since 1945, either.

That doesn't mean we never will, and if we ever do, that's the end of the show, folks.

The only reason Asscroft hasn't subpoenaed librarians yet is because the public would tear him a new asshole if he did. Until some librarian steps forward and says otherwise, I tend to believe him when he says there have been no such subpoenas as of today; can you imagine what would happen if a librarian actually DID come forward? That would be curtains for his reign of terror, if not immediately, then next November for sure.

Of course, I am being naive in assuming that Asscroft possesses that sort of common sense. I may yet be proven wrong.

[progressivejazz]

18. Similar to the pre-war Iraq situation, isn't it?

Saddam said he didn't have WMDs we knew he wasn't using. Ashcroft thought he was lying. He considered this reason enough to overthrow Saddam's regime.


Ashcroft is known to have a weapon he says he isn't using. I think he's lying. I consider this reason enough to vote the present U.S. regime out of power.


And let's hear no nonsense about Saddam's having used his weapons in the past. The U.S. government has used Ashcroft's weapon in the past.

[Nottingham]

20. Librarians! We are talking about Librarians! Those Evildoers!

Ya know Aschcroft is really going after those evildoer terrorist hiding


LIBRARIANS!!!!!!!!

I mean he has really gone Goering on us! And he is going unchecked and thats just NOT RIGHT!!

[ProfessorGAC]

21. Simple Debunking Of Ashcroft's Logic

It would appear, from this release of information, that the Patriot Act is NOT MAKING US SAFER! That was the point of the Act, supposedly, so it should be scrapped, as it is a useless distribution of powers.

So there, Johnny Boy!
The Professor

[Chico Man]

23. More like "Patriot Act Needless" and "Ashcroft Needless" (nt)

[Racenut20]

24. Then why was he on his road trip to sell it?

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. This Just In: Bob Boudelang Promoted to Attorney General

We always use our powers for good, never for evil, so Just Stop Saying That!

[Q]

26. This isn't the only provision of the Act...

...that is decidedly anti-Constitutional...though Ashcroft makes it sound that way.

[Teaser]

27. Resistance is futile.

You will be assimilated.

[PATRICK]

28. there was a time

when a public figure calling librarians "hysterical" would have raged in the media, and gotten apology and/or disciplining. Ashcroft is increasingly out of control like any baited neocon of his genus and species. His own legal trouble with violating gagorders in a capital case for just one example should have been cause for impeachment by any other AG in Ammerican history so counter to the duties of his very office is the offense.