Bills would make pledge, Ten Commandments mandatory in schools

[cascadiance]

Hmm... I guess if they push hard enough they'll get the 10 commandments endorsed by some local governments someplace now won't they!

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Bills would make pledge, Ten Commandments mandatory in schools

MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) — Some state senators want to make sure that every public school has the Ten Commandments displayed and that every school day begins with students and teachers reciting the Pledge of Allegiance.

Bills that would put both requirements into law won approval in the state Senate Education Committee on Wednesday and now go to the Senate for consideration.

The committee voted 6-3 for a bill by Sen. Curt Lee, R-Jasper, that would require each public school in Alabama to display framed or mounted copies of the Ten Commandments, Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights.

Lee said the documents provide the foundation for American government and they should be on display daily in every public school in Alabama.

Committee Chairman Vivian Davis Figures, D-Mobile, voted against the bill, saying that schools don't have enough money now for the basics and Lee's legislation puts an unfunded mandate on them.

The committee also approved a bill by Sen. Bradley Byrne, R-Montrose, to require that each day begin in Alabama public schools with students and teachers reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. The bill passed on a voice vote without any audible dissent.

http://www.al.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-11/1107985917194670.xml&storylist=alabamanews

[Charlie Brown]

1. the Magna Carta?

ironic that they would order a document displayed which limited the absolute authority of despots.

I don't like students and faculty being "ordered" to say the pledge, either.

[Rush1184]

41. I know if it was my kid who was going to that school...

I would tell them that they did not have to recite it. This is one of those things all progressive parents should stand against if it is passed.

On a side no, why does it not surprise me that this is happening in Alabama?

[muriel_volestrangler]

50. OK, how many people here have actually read the Magna Carta?

It's, errmm, a little 'patchy'. Take this model of equality, for example:

"Heirs may be given in marriage, but not to someone of lower social standing. Before a marriage takes place, it shall be' made known to the heir's next-of-kin."

[chicagojoe]

2. I've read the U S Constitution. No 10 commandments to be found.

[Disturbed]

4. UNCONSTITIONAL!!!

The 1st Commandment is against my philosophy.

[Scooter24]

13. Actually

The court has ruled that there is no constiutional problem when you place a copy of the 10 Commandments along side other historical documents, which in this case they are doing.

[Charlie Brown]

14. Fine. Where's the Qu'ran? n/t

[DrRang]

37. Code of Hammurabi

Actually, the Code of Hammurabi has a lot more to do with our laws than the Ten Commandments. It originated in--drum roll, please--Iraq around 3,000 BC, I think. Used to have part of it posted in my drafting office . . . "If a builder build a house and it falls down and kills the homeowner's child, then the child of the builder shall be killed" and so on. Probably why some of those buildings survived until the good ole' USA came to liberate them.

[Rush1184]

42. Why should we have that terrerist propoganda stuff in our schools...

The bible dun say it bad!

<scarcasm off>

[Dervill Crow]

62. Why not the 613 mitzvot or the Wiccan Rede?

The Christians swiped the 10 commandments, anyway. Geeez.

[neweurope]

18. The 10 Commandments are hardly a "historical document".

"Freedom of religion" to me doesn't spell "freedom for Christianity only" or even more so "Christianity stuffed down everybody's throat".

One poster here says "nothing much will change - those who don't want to will stay seated". No, they won't. Group pressure is a bitch, and before long the thought police will get them, too.

And having children pledge allegiance to their country for me is brainwashing. A child doesn't even understand what all that entails.

--------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Scooter24]

22. I will not

cite legal cases because technically, there have been conflicting rulings from several circuit courts on this issue. However, I must object to the notion that group pressure be a factor in this decision. If someone who has the moral or religious courage to make a stand against reciting the pledge, and I'm talking about a firm, solid reason for objecting, then group pressure shouldn't even be a factor in their decision. If it was a child, then that child should talk to the teacher after class one day and tell her he doesn't wish to say the pledge. If it's a parental objection, then the parent should make some effort in conveying that message to the administrators and teacher.

I understand the the delicate nature of this issue, but maybe the teacher saying "it's ok to not say the pledge" before reciting would make those who do ojbect more comfortable. A law that simply objects to any recital is too instrusive and infringes on the rights of those who do want to recite it.

We have to find middle ground on this. An all out ban on the pledge does not help our party nor our position at all.

[neweurope]

25. My thoughts were of a general nature. Whether banning the pledge would

help or hurt your party hadn't entered my mind (you may be right here - but to me it's still brainwashing).

As to what you said about group pressure: You're talking very "adult". Children are different. My nephew and niece here in Germany, Protestants, live in a 98 % Catholic area. Group pressure brought them to say Hail Marys etc. - all that Catholic stuff. They weren't actively pressured at all - they did it voluntarily because they just didn't want to be different.

-----------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[VirginiaDem]

34. The compromise is obvious--go back to the original version n/t

[VirginiaDem]

35. And I do agree with you that a little compromise on

a lot of the issues we feel very strongly about is necessary. As an atheist, I want to keep the separation wall but am not particularly fussed about some of these issues. Let prayers be spoken at football games (just make sure locals who aren't Christian get their turn); let schools be used for Bible clubs and the like (just don't do it during school hours and make sure it's available for non-Christian clubs); keep the "In God We Trust" on the coins because it's meaningless but keep the Ten Commandments off the walls of the schools because they aren't. By all means teach, in history class, that (part) of the foundation of Western Civ is Judaeo-Christianity but make sure they know a big part of our legal tradition is secular Greek/Roman (I believe I've read this somewhere?)

And by all means, let everybody worship as they please, whenever they want, in houses of worship.

[GiovanniC]

40. Ironically

Since the second commandment says not to worship any sculpted or graven images... and they want to worship the sculpted/graven image of the Ten Commandments, their very action of worshipping these stone tablets are violating them.

[GetTheRightVote]

3. Seperation of State and Church, no 10 commandments in schools

:kick:

[ZR2]

30. Seperation of church and state

means we have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. If they want to put the 10 commandments there, fine, nobody is forcing anyone to look at or read them.

[Charlie Brown]

32. Wow, that's certainly a low standard for religious freedom

I really don't want elected politicians telling me how I'm supposed to worship, let alone my children in an atmosphere where they're a captive audience (schools).

If you think the right to worship as we please away from gov't pressure and coercion is negotiable, I doubt you've been on the receiving end of relgious discrimination.

[0007]

36. Would the swastika be offensive to you?

An ancient cosmic or religious symbol formed by a Greek cross with the ends of the arms bent at right angles in either a clockwise or a counterclockwise direction. The Hindus used it as a sign of good luck. It is a Sanskrit term (svastika)

Need I say more?

[GiovanniC]

43. Actually, It Means Both

Some of the people who came over and founded this nation of ours did so because they were persecuted for not following the ruling church at the time and a great many were deists or atheists.

[livinginphotographs]

52. Jesus christ, I can't believe you pulled that tired old line out.

It DOES mean freedom from religion.

[Sinistrous]

54. "freedom of", but not "freedom from". Nice mantra, but false.

Freedom from religion logically flows from freedom of religion. Those who want no deities and the trappings of those who worship those deities are also protected in their aversion to religion.

Also, the first amendment states that NO law respecting establishment of religion is permitted. That is NO law, regardless how trivial or stupid.

[Ediacara]

58. Well they'd better make a big wall to hang them on

because if you let the ten commandments in, you'd better let everything in.

[satya]

5. Do they also say which version of the 10 commandments must be posted? nt

[Solly Mack]

6. What? No Code of Hammurabi?

[UCSBLiberalCat53]

10. Re: "What? No Code of Hammurabi?"

That code includes trial by ordeal. Basically, once the theocratic revolution has come full circle, we'll start judging whether we're innocent or not if the skin of our flesh isn't burnt off when we stick our arms into a cauldron of boiling water. Perhaps we'll start persecuting people as suspected witches. I fear for the cats too. We'll perhaps see a repeat of the Middle Ages when cats were slaughtered en-masse because they were believed to be the familiars of the witches.

There's a politician in Virginia who believes mental illness is caused by demons. He made the Top 10 conservative idiots list a while back.

[Solly Mack]

12. That's why I was asking :)

well, that and for the BCE aspect ;)

[UCSBLiberalCat53]

17. *shudders

Perhaps they'll start sacrificing liberals too...

[Solly Mack]

26. I wouldn't put it past them

[atreides1]

53. Do We Fight It, or Do We Sit on our Hands

Before the theocratic revolution, blood will be shed and lives lost.

Speaking for myself, I'm willing to make some of these make believe Christians, into martyrs, and I don't meant those at the bottom rung of the ladder either.

"Better to die on my feet, then to live on my knees"

Emiliano Zapata

[truthisfreedom]

7. which ten commandments?

[satya]

8. SCOTUS ruled in 1943 that school kids can't be forced to say the pledge.

US Constitution.net

[BiggJawn]

33. These morons should read "Catch 22"...

Specifically the chapter about "The Great Loyalty Pledge Campaign", but I seriously think the irony of it would be totally lost on these bumpkins.

This is what you get when you send self-made Merchants to the legislature instead of those "boring egg-head Liberals"...

Money does not equal brains, but in this culture of "Who wants to fuck a Millionaire" and "The Indentured Servant", the wealthy are admired celebriies...

[regnaD kciN]

9. Isn't it classic...?

They'd have to put the Ten Commandments up right next to the Bill of Rights, including the First Amendment.

:eyes:

[rogue_bandit]

11. Thou Shalt Not Kill

Strange how very few Christians think this commandment applies to their lives. I reminded my right wing friend that commandment is not followed by "...except...". He said, "Interesting."

He is blown away by his President's attempts to trash Social Security. It actually, deeply scares him. I've never seen him in quite this state. Usually he's all, "My leader, right or wrong." Not anymore. I hope he is indicative of most Republicans.

[Scooter24]

15. ...

"Byrne's bill allows teachers and students to opt out of saying the pledge if they have objections or if they are citizens of another country."

It doesn't look like much will change. More than likely, to curb selective teacher objections, they will use the PA system in the mornings to say the pledge, students and teachers who object will be free to stay seated and life will go on. This is just another feel-good bill to play to their base.

I believe Texas passed a law a few years ago that is similar to this bill.

[demodonkey]

16. We need less 10 Commandments and MORE FIRST 10 AMMENDMENTS! nt

[NVMojo]

19. like reciting religious crap makes people moral and ethical & have values

HA!!!

[gauguin57]

20. Ten commandments in the schools, kids in VA to be fined for showing

underwear above the waistlines of their pants (house of delegates voted yea on the bill, at least) ...

Cripes ... kids are going to have to start going to private school to GET AWAY FROM religion and faux-moralistic regs in school.

[phylny]

31. Virginia schools already have to have an "In God We Trust"

placard or poster up in a visible place in the entrance of schools.

It blew me away when I worked in a Northern Virginia School. *I* trust in God, but I am very against schools being forced to post it.

[livinginphotographs]

38. I don't remember seeing that where I went to school.

That was a few years ago, so (not putting anything past the stupidity of Virginia legislators) maybe it's changed.

The pants thing is real though. At least Alabama's trying to out-do us for backwards-ness this week.

[TreasonousBastard]

21. The Commandments should be...

in the original Hebrew. With a Rabbi assigned to the school to interpret them. And remind everyone that they were commandments to the Hebrews, not heathen Gentiles.

Then have a preacher there to explain what happened when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was.

Better yet, just teach the little buggers to read and figure it all out for themselves.

[fleabert]

28. this not-so-little bugger just googled it...

thanks for the push to find out. I keep telling my fundie friends & family that, but they seem to think the most important part of the bible is either 'an eye for an eye' or that being gay is bad. Now I can give a quote! :-) they will be shocked. (that I know a quote from the bible!) Jesus was a great guy, too bad all these people keep screwing up the message.

[Piperay]

23. What do they think displaying

the Ten Commandments will achieve??? Will putting it up in every school suddenly make people stop lying, coveting and swearing??? :crazy: Thousands of years the Ten Commandments have been available and people are still doing that stuff.

[Charlie Brown]

24. I honestly think displaying the commandments could be damaging to kids

"Thou shalt not commit adultery"

If a kid has step parents, or lives with a single parent who dates, he/she'll believe his parents are sinners, and that he's not as much worth as the other kids (never mind the awkwardness of explaining to young children what adultery is).

"Remember the Sabbath..."

If kid's parents work on Sundays, or don't attend church, it might affect his self-esteem.

"Thou shalt not covet..."

We all covet, it's simply human-nature. Schools even encourage kids to covet by encouraging them to compete for the best grades, scores, etc. Holding this as a rule would only confuse kids.

[cascadiance]

27. At least Alabamans were getting rid of segrationist language

... from their constitution...

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050210/amendment.shtml

So, even though it's not perfect, they aren't completely staying in the dark ages.

[GiovanniC]

47. Well Hurray For Low Standards

I didn't shit my pants yesterday... where's my fucking medal?

[izzie]

29. Is it going to be Roberson's or the Bibles?

Fundamentalist have sort of re-done it for their own way of thinking.Like kill?

[D-Notice]

39. How about the 5 pillars of Islam?

[AlinPA]

44. No surprise. This will happen in every "red" state. The amendment to

kick out gay students and students whose parents are gay will be passed in 2006.

[trogdor]

45. So, will there be regulations on placement?

Would posting them in the broom closet violate the law?

How about frame size? Is 2"x3" too small?

[leesa]

46. Well, that'll just solve all our problems won't it?

These people are so phenomenally dumb.

[rugger]

48. Ever really read the nonsense in the 10 commandments?

Remember the sabbath, keep it holy? How many of us do that, except if you count the mall as your place of worship.

COvet thy neighbor's wife. Why the hell not, I can whack off to her while she's in her bikini sunbathing in the back yard, is that covetting? What about covetting your neighbor if you're gay?

[disillusioned1]

56. The sabbath in the Jewish religion is Saturday n/t

[bluestateguy]

49. This is why the Left should not be hostile to home schooling

Supporting the public schools is important, but sometimes the fundamentalistwackos take over. Hence, progressive parents should be free to either homeschool their kids or join forces with other like minded parents to establish progressive private schools.

[Brooklyn Michael]

51. It's really simple...

...what part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" doesn't Alabama understand?

:wtf:

[superconnected]

61. remember these are the people who can't get "thou shalt not kill"

even though they're holding up the list.

[cascadiance]

55. Alabamans now protesting this bill...

... but appeared to be more worried about another bill deregulating landline phone competition to BellSouth.



http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5XGR0210W.htm

[Ediacara]

57. The foundation for American government???

Oddly enough, the SINGLE document that ACTUALLY provides the ONLY foundation for American government is missing from his list: The Constitution.

[cascadiance]

59. A new article with an online poll...

whose results will be shown on the local NBC affiliate down there. Here's a chance to mobilize and help show resistance to this offensive bill.

Go to:

http://www.nbc13.com/news/4185372/detail.html#

[superconnected]

60. I'm Christian and I can't stand this idea

And I'd like the people who keep trying to force their extreme beliefs on people to quit calling themselves Christian now.

It's old testament, not Christian. Hear that right wing? The 10 commandments are OLD TESTAMENT.

The beatitudes are new testament.

[Clark2008]

64. I get cut off every time I call the local rightwing preacher rant show

here and say this! LOL!

I keep telling him that Jesus got rid of the 10 Commandments, save but two: Love God and love your neighbor.

And he pretends I hung up on him and bitches.

:)

[Flammable Materials]

63. What part of "Liberty And Justice For All" don't they understand?

Equal rights for gay couples is at the heart of the Pledge of Allegiance. Those who want to modify the Constitution to ban equal rights for gays and lesbians are anti-American.