Students plan to protest fake bake sale

[truthpusher]

http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=86407

Students plan to protest fake bake sale
Updated: 2/11/2005 7:42 AM
By: Mercer Merrill, News 14 Carolina

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- The College Republicans at UNC-Charlotte will be holding a mock bake sale Tuesday to protest affirmative action.

From 10 a.m. to 2 p.m., they will be at the Belk Tower, charging different prices for different races and sexes. It is something they have done for the past three years.

But this year, several other student organizations want to respond with a protest of their own. They say they are outraged by the mock bake sale.

“We want to raise awareness that affirmative action shouldn’t be dealt with in such a simplistic matter,” organizer Terrence James said Thursday.

(snip)

Elizabeth Beck, a member of the College Republicans, said her group is just trying to get people talking about the issue.

more:
http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=86407

[sniffa]

1. again?

this was Lame the first time they did it, and it jumped the shark when "boson pubLic" did an episode on it.

[fishwax]

15. lol. Boston Public. I guess I missed that episode

must've been after they switched to Fridays :)

[brainshrub]

2. Here's an idea for a counter-bake sale:

Cost of a cookie for a white person is .50 cents and the white customer takes a cookie from the table.

Cost of a cookie for a black person is .25 cents, but the black customer has to pick up the cookie on the other side of campus.

What do you think?

[UL_Approved]

140. No shit

But we don't want to talk about WHY we have affirmative action, now do we?

[girl gone mad]

148. Only do it in reverse. n/t

[genieroze]

155. I think the cost should be the same for a white or a black person but

the black person has to pick it up off the dirty ground.

[DulceDecorum]

3. I wanna grandfather clause and a legacy cake-walk sale

Most of those young Republicans
could not make it into college on their own merit
and would not be there
if it was not for granddaddy's trust fund bribing the school.

[mudderfudder77]

5. I hate to say it...

But UNC Charlotte hardly has stringent admission standards.

[DulceDecorum]

21. Then

why the original bake sale?

[silvermachine]

60. Well they do have young republicans there...

...so perhaps you should apply. Even someone with your "intellect" may be received warmly.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

6. No, they don't.

They're just a bunch of racists.

[Carolinian]

18. They are trying to get you to see the disparity of AA.

And I share their view. Do the work - get into college. That's the only "unracist" way.

[DrWeird]

19. Ignoring institutionalised racism is racist.

Or just plan supporting it.

I'll say again, a bunch of fucking racists.

[Carolinian]

42. As is using institutions of higher learning to promote racism.

[Shakespeare]

43. It's not racism (but of course, you're ignoring my rebuttal). n/t

[DrWeird]

47. Exactly.

Which is why it's a shame these racists are having their little racist cake sale.

[Carolinian]

58. It's a class war - not a race war.

[Shakespeare]

64. Actually, it's both. And a gender war, too.

You're trying waaaaay too hard to oversimplify this.

[Carolinian]

66. And you are trying way to hard to complicate things. So be it.

[Shakespeare]

68. LOL--no, I'm not. It's called LIFE. n/t

[Carolinian]

92. Right. And life is not fair. No matter how much we try.

[Shakespeare]

113. And then you die. BUT....

we, as a society, are in a position to at least make the effort towards a level playing field. You prefer feudalism?

[Carolinian]

121. Feudalism? How did that get in the conversation? I'm simply saying

that it's not right to take away one person's rights (white male) so that another person (opposing race/sex) can have that right.

In life there is no level playing field - God makes sure of that! Sorry, but it's just reality. Anyone who can't accept that and move on is headed for trouble.

You know what's worse than coming from a poor black family? It's growing up a poor orphan. I know about that.

[fortyfeetunder]

122. What?

You are asserting that one one person's rights (white male) so that another person (opposing race/sex) can have that right.

How about this argument...was the voting rights act taking away voting rights from white folks so blacks could have voting rights in the voting booth????

[Carolinian]

126. I sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

[fortyfeetunder]

131. If I were to apply your logic to voting

Like in the Voting Rights act....

Was it wrong to give blacks voting rights because it diluted or took aw oting rights of whites?

[jrthin]

30. This kind of thinking is simplistic

and lacks an understanding of history or human nature.

[Carolinian]

45. Why complicate matters? Do the work - go to college.

[Shakespeare]

46. LOL!! If you seriously think it's that simple....

Boy, oh boy. There are many complicated layers of money, class, race, gender--and on and on--and how all of those things affect opportunity. How utterly disingenuous of you.

For your statement to be accurate, it would have to be true that there's a level playing field. And there simply isn't, and I'm sure you know that.

[Carolinian]

56. Forget all other factors and just consider academics.

Do the work - earn the grades - go to college. All the money, class, race & gender factors be damned. Just base it on merit.

[Shakespeare]

63. You can't base it just on academics. For that to be possible...

Society would have to exist in a vacuum, which it obviously doesn't.

[Carolinian]

73. Then why can athletics be based solely on athletic skill?

[Shakespeare]

75. Surely you're not suggesting that we've achieved equality in athletics?

Because we haven't.

[Carolinian]

78. If I understand you correctly you are saying that

it isn't right to give acacemic opportunity to the individuals who have worked for it but instead it should be allocated according to race, gender, etc. To base it solely on achievement/drive is simplistic. Why doesn't the same argument apply to athletics? I don't hear anyone complaining that the opportunities are going to best players irregardless of race, gender, et.?

[Shakespeare]

110. You're misinterpreting what AA is about.

Quite deliberately, I'm guessing. You're using the old rightwing boogeyman MYTH that preference is given to those less qualified. That's not the case, as I'm sure you know.

[Carolinian]

128. I guess that's a nice way of saying I'm looking for a fight. Well..

I'm not. Actually I usually avoid this subject like the plague but I feel quite comfortable discussing it with you for some reason. I have no firsthand experience with AA, but I do have experience with being poor.

The problem I have is that we get angry about racial disparities but not about class disparities. And the class disparities are HUGE HUGE, HUGE and growing every day. Why can't we put race and all that bitterness aside and come together to stand up against unfair privileges for the wealthy?

Does that make sense to you?

[NickB79]

77. Even that argument no longer holds water

Even the best athletic stars today are expected to have good grades in high school and decent ACT/SAT scores before being accepted to universities. Maybe back in the 70's and 80's, you could be dirt-dumb and still get in because you can sink 3-pointers, but no longer.

[Carolinian]

80. But race and gender are not factors. Only skill.

[NickB79]

81. Actually, gender is a significant factor

Women's sports in high school are severely underfunded compared to men's sports, and without equal funding men dominate the sports scene. How many women go to college based on sports scholarships compared to men?

Skill does not arise in a vacuum. Without the proper support, even the most gifted students can't achieve their full potential. Do you think those atheletes you mentioned just one day picked up a basketball or football and bam, they were all-stars? No, they were coached and groomed for years to become what they are. Atheletes are never judged just on their skill alone because it takes many other factors to bring out that skill.

[Shakespeare]

How many African-American golfers do you see? How about hockey players?

We haven't achieved equality in sports yet, either.

[Carolinian]

91. So it's a search for equality on all levels?

[Shakespeare]

111. A search for equal *opportunity.*

And we haven't come CLOSE to that yet.

[NickB79]

79. And on what planet does this occur?

Sounds like a nice place to live, but unfortunately here on Earth, all the things you said to disregard can never be disregarded, because they are ingrained into the fabric of our society.

For example, I know for a fact that there are many, many highly intelligent black children living here in the US. However, their parents were denied jobs back in the 50's-70's based on their race, so they could only afford to live in a poor neighborhood. This poor neighborhood has a poor school that recieves only the worst of the teachers available and desperate enough to work there, and only the older, outdated textbooks and supplies. No computer labs, no career counselors, nothing like that. You raise a child, even an incredibly intelligent one, in that environment, and the child almost never has a chance to compete against a white student raised in a more affluent neighborhood. Some may be lucky enough to live near a library, where they can self-teach themselves, but how many libraries have you ever seen in poor inner-city communities?

My point is that even if racism was eliminated today, the damage it has done will continue to perpetuate itself in an endless loop if nothing is done to break it. Affirmative action is one of these tools to give those intelligent children an opportunity they otherwise would never have had.

[Carolinian]

82. You are not talking about race issues. They are poverty issues.

[NickB79]

83. Yes I am talking about race issues

In case you missed the first part of my example, the race of the parents is what forced them into poverty. Racism is what started the cycle and downward spiral into poverty.

[Carolinian]

88. So how does this work for poor white kids?

[NickB79]

99. Find me a white kid

Who was raised poor SPECIFICALLY because his parents were rejected from decent jobs because they are white.

[Carolinian]

136. That's not an argument. Poor is poor. Period.

[Redleg]

90. It's not so easy. Many of the students going to the poorest high-schools

are racial minorities. They are not being prepared as well to succeed in college as are students, primarily white, in wealthier schools. And no, school vouchers is not the answer.

[Carolinian]

96. Listen, I grew up dirt poor. I succeeded. I don't need to attribute

it to race or handouts or anything but my hard work and a little luck. You talk as if the only people in the world who are mistreated are blacks. Well, I know from experience it is the POOR who are outcast and mistreated. That's the poor white, black, indian, hispanic - ALL of them. We will never make any headway with poverty if we don't include ALL the working poor. Our laws do not need to favor races - they need to favor economic situations. I am now raising a white male child who is in high school and is in the upper 3% of his class. Should he sacrifice his college education so a person of another race can have theirs? I think not.

[Redleg]

98. Do you deny that Blacks face discrimination and obstacles that Whites

do not face? I am glad you were able to receive an education. I agree that we need to do more about the poor. I disagree that your son will somehow have to sacrifice his education so a "person of another race can have theirs." There are many good universities out there that your son can get into.

[Carolinian]

101. I think all poor people face discrimination.

[UL_Approved]

141. That is true, but you missed the divide-and-conquer strategy

First of all, there are NO simple answers.

Second, poverty and racial discrimination go hand in hand.

Racial discrimination has been a part of this country since its inception. Minorities have ALWAYS faced tougher challenges in this nation.

Remember, affirmative action QUOTAS are based upon demographic percentages. If this alters the admitted students, this indicates that one or more groups are being represented disproportionately. If affirmative action was having no effect, then it would be nice from a racial stance.

The fact that minority students get favored in the standard is due to the fact that they have a lesser opportunity than the majority of the U.S. population.

Your argument on poverty is very true, but your argument on race forces one of two conclusions:

1. Demographic figures are wrong, and minorities are being disproportionately boosted in enrollment figures, which would imply that minorities have less academic aptitude than majority students.

2. Minority students are not being afforded the same opportunities as majority students.

[Carolinian]

144. So where does a poor white male figure in this?

[Carolinian]

102. My son may go to college - but somewhere some other child

won't. And for the wrong reason - the color of their skin. That's why I feel it must be based on merit alone.

[Redleg]

145. But it won't be based on merit even if race is not a consideration.

It doesn't work that way. The wealthiest Americans will always be "priveleged" to go to the best private instutitions, regardless of their "merit." How else do you explain Dubya going to Yale and Harvard?

The conservatives are using class warfare to divide and conquer the rest of us. Case in point- they create the "conventional wisdom" that unqualified minorities are getting selected for colleges and employment while qualified whites are being left out. That is simply not the truth for the most part (yes, there are a few cases of reverse discrimination but not anywhere near enough to warrant ending legitimate affirmative action measures). Any company or school that selects unqualified minorities or women over qualified white males is breaking the law. Affirmative Action does not permit or encourage that type of action.

How do I know this? I am a college professor who studies these employment issues. Don't let yourself get confused by the right-wing spin. Resist it.

[blonndee]

124. Are you SERIOUS??? Do you actually think it's that simple?? OMG. nt

[Lancey_Howard]

132. Wow, are you ever on the wrong site.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jrthin]

106. Shakespeare, thanks so much

for lending your voice to reasoned thinking. Heck, we have an idiot-in-chief who proclaimed he didn't work hard, yet he got into an ivy league college and maintained a "C" average. Let you and me try that kind of "hard work" and we'd be out on our tush.

[Shakespeare]

31. No, they aren't. It's inherently dishonest. See post 28. n/t

[jdj]

38. kind of like how geedubya got into Yale? mmmhmmm.

[0rganism]

49. So you don't know what affirmative action is, then

Given two applicants of equal qualification, the choice is made in favor of the minority applicant. They still do the same work for the institutional placement. Get it? That's the kind of affirmative action that was upheld by the SCOTUS.

[Carolinian]

55. Ahem. That's not exactly how it works, buddy.

[0rganism]

59. Great. By all means, tell us *exactly* how it works,

and how it conforms to the standards established in R.U.C v. Bakke, 1978.

Buddy.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

72. Are you going to answer the "question" posed to you in Post #59?

Cause I'd like to hear that.

Buddy.

[stanwyck]

52. uh, you mean like GWB?

and all the other legacy students?

[leesa]

87. As long as the rich kids and the sports starts don't get their free passes

[Redleg]

89. Their example is simplistic and stupid.

And anyone who defends such bake sales is simple-minded too.

[Squatch]

7. And what would that point be?

That they're complete racist idiots? If so, then they're making that point very well.

[Carolinian]

14. Call it anything you like. It's not right to raise or lower

prices based on skin color. Agreed?

[Carolinian]

9. I agree with Rush1184

[oasis]

12. "they" have a point. Who are the "they" Rush 1184 is aligning with?

And while you're at it, ask your pal Rush who inspired his screen name.

[Carolinian]

17. They = the college students having the bake sale.

Why not base scholarship and college admission on merit alone. You do the work...you get into college...and the cost is covered. Skin color is not a factor at all. How do you feel about that?

[snippy]

26. That would be a radical change never before practiced in the US.

Maybe someday.

[jdj]

39. man, then all your rich buddies would have to work for their

admission, and actually pay their own way (with their own money, not Daddy's)?? you better ask them how they feel about that before you go spouting off.

[Carolinian]

41. So it's rich vs poor and not black vs white, right. Is that what

you're saying?

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NickB79]

86. It's both

You don't see many rich black families, now do you?

[Carolinian]

97. I see plenty of comfortable black families. I see plenty

of poor white families.

[NickB79]

100. Really? Percentage-wise, how many black families are middle-class?

Compared to that, how many white families are middle-class? What percentage of black people are in the upper-class of society? When broken down based on their percentage of the US population, black families are far more likely to be below the poverty line than white families. Your example is anecdotal; I am asking for hard data.

[Carolinian]

44. Isn't that what you want? The rich do the same work as the

poor to get into college? BTW, I'm not spouting off...you are.

[Shakespeare]

28. No, they don't, and here's why:

Because their little analogy is only half of the story. It's a one-way, bogus analogy.

To reflect reality, the purchasers would have the cash that they purchase bake sale items with reduced in value to reflect their reduced earning power that results from oppression and discrimination. For example, a woman's "dollar" would only be valued at about 73 cents. An African-American's dollar at about the same, or a little less (especially if it's a femal African-American).

THAT is what affirmative action seeks to remedy. And anybody who buys into that bullshit bake sale stunt is either woefully ignorant and uninformed, or willfully dishonest.

[Jack_DeLeon]

29. I wish they would have had those sales when I went to school...

I have no qualms about buying things at a discount.

I also dont really believe in affermative action. Then again I've never really considered myself a minority because I'm not in my part of the world.

[Griffy]

33. what point do they have? dont just incite, discuss! nt

[THUNDER HANDS]

48. yes, the white one they cover their faces with

two eye holes and everything.

[0rganism]

50. To be accurate they should charge everyone the same price

and when only one cookie remains, sell it to the minority student.

Then they would have a point.

[noamnety]

8. I thought they supported affirmative action

Colleges need to hire less qualified conservative professors over a more qualified liberal one. Wasn't that their idea?

[paineinthearse]

10. Better than raising funds for snipers, but still pretty cheesey. n/t

[denverbill]

11. How 'original' of them. Geez, don't these people have brains of their own

How about Democrats hold a 'Capital Gains Tax Rate Sale'.

Since Republicans like to tax some forms of income a lower rates than others, you can charge different prices for cookies depending on the work someone does. If they are affluent heiresses like Paris Hilton, they pay $.15 for a cookie. If they are middle class, charge them $.50. If it's a mother working 3 minimum wage jobs like the 'uniquely American' mother Bush talked to, charge them $1.00.

[denverbill]

13. Oh, also, I'd have a black student buy up their entire supply.

Then set up an NAACP fundraiser right next to them and resell the cookies for $.50.

[Crunchy Frog]

16. The little Pukes here at the University of Colorado

did the same thing recently. I don't even see how something like that can be seen as permissible on a campus environment. I'm all for free speech, but targetting whole groups of students to insult on the basis of their skin color is not usually tolerated on college campuses, and shouldn't be.

Maybe the College Dems could put something similar together. Maybe charge even, simple prices for the Pukes and more complex prices for the Dems in order to illustrate the fact that Pukes tend to be stupider and incapable of complex thought. Charge $2.00 on the nose for a Puke and $2.37 for a Dem. The difference could go to a tsunami relief fund or something, also illustrating that Dems are generous and willing to give something to help others, whereas Pukes are stingy and selfish.

Just a way to get people talking about the issue...

[Postmanx]

20. The students holding the bake sale have an excellent point

Basing anything, price, or admissions standards on skin color is stupid.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. They could find some other way of making that point.

A way which does not gratuitously insult a whole group of students for no reason other than their skin color.

Maybe they could have a similar bake sale for rich legacies whose family connections got them in. Maybe they shouldn't just assume that any minority student got admitted due to affirmative action.

At any rate, it is possible to debate the merits of affirmative action without insulting other students. I think these little Pukes are more interested in insulting others than in engaging in valid policy debate.

[Postmanx]

25. By that standard, those protesting the second W term

should be careful not to be insulting?

[Crunchy Frog]

34. Well, they shouldn't be insulting other students

based on things like their skin color, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation. What's wrong with attacking ideas rather than people, especially people you know nothing about other than their skin color?

I'm afraid I really don't understand what point you're trying to make in these posts.

[Postmanx]

67. This is my point

Those holding the bake sale are saying, in essence "it is stupid to make decisions based on skin color". They are using the price of baked goods to illustrate this.

While I do not see this as insulting, I will concede that some people may be insulted. However, their feeling insulted has no bearing on the validity of the point being made by the bake sale.

You wouldn't say that bush's feeling insulted by the behavior of protesters invalidated their point, would you?

[Shakespeare]

69. And WE are saying...

It's stupid to have privilege based on your skin color, class or sex.

Goes both ways, you know.

[Postmanx]

71. If you were going to hire someone to do a job

Would you hire the applicant with the best qualifications, or would you allow skin color to affect your decision?

[High Plains]

74. Well, mabye I don't like negroes

so then I would pick the white guy even though he's less qualified.

[livinginphotographs]

85. You might want to add a sarcasm disclaimer.

Otherwise, you're on the wrong board.

[Shakespeare]

76. Honestly?

If I were reviewing multiple candidates and had two applicants with similar qualifications, and one was a woman or minority, yeah, I'd probably go with the woman or the minority. But then again, I'm not a government or academic institution, so the parameters are just a tad different. This analogy of yours is not as simple as you think it is--tread carefully.

[Postmanx]

95. Why would you do that?

[DrWeird]

103. Studies have shown...

that in the work place, employers are more likely to hire white people then black people, even though the qualifications are the same.

If you change the name on the applicant from a "white sounding name" to a "black sounding name" the resume is far more likely to be rejected.

[Shakespeare]

108. If you have to ask, then you haven't been paying attention.

To this thread, that is.

[Shakespeare]

112. dupe. n/t

[fortyfeetunder]

123. DING! We have a winner!!!

Shakespeare, methinks a lesson in privilege is warranted, eh?

[Crunchy Frog]

120. I've already stated before

that they can criticise affirmative action without pulling a little stunt that's designed to make some students feel insulted based on nothing but their skin color or ethnic background.

That is a completely different matter than making Bu$h feel bad by protesting him. The difference being that he's actually in a position of power where he has actually been doing harmful things.

Any person who goes into politics knows that they are likely to be insulted or attacked over something at some point, because that's the nature of politics. Kids who go to college do not operate under the same assumption.

Since this appears to be a point that you have difficulty with, and since we otherwise seem to simply be talking past each other, I don't see the utility of carrying on this discussion with you any further.

[MADem]

107. Ha!!!

Make George W. have his father contribute a million bucks to build a library before he can get a cookie!

I agree, I think these bake sales suck. They are a racist statement, singling out those with dark skin, and they don't do it to protest anything resembling a level playing field.

What these things point out to me is that these little bake sale brats don't like the fact that kids who went to the worst, underfunded, crumbling public schools, in war zone neighborhoods, who nonetheless managed to graduate using torn, lousy books, being taught in too-cold, too-hot classrooms, by minimally qualified teachers, somehow managed, through grit and determination, to overcome all that and get to college.

They want to go back to the good ole days. This way to the colored fountain, this way to the whites only waiting room...fuck 'em. They're racists, and they are un-American.

[DulceDecorum]

24. And grandfather clauses are just as as stupid,

and we all wind up suffering
when the grandfather clause and alumni leagacy
combine with the Dilbert Principle
and project a C student from Yale into power.

[Shakespeare]

37. Uh, nope. See my post #28. n/t

[Redleg]

93. They don't have a point at all. The bake sale is stupid.

EOM

[CO Liberal]

22. OK -We'll Talk

CO Liberal: "College Republicans are ignorant assholes."

Your turn, Elizabeth Beck - you ignorant asshole.

:-)

[UCLA Dem]

27. the party who really doesn't give a shit about anyone but the rich and

white has got a lot of nerve protesting discrimination and unfair treatment.

What race do they think the lion's share of the 43+ million Americans who don't have health insurance?

Who's the majority of those dieing in Middle East?

Who are the majority of the working poor?

Who are those who are going to get screwed by destruction of social security and medicare?

Do they care that women still only make about 73 cents for every dollar a man earns in the same job?

Lastly, if the repukes are so against discrimination, maybe legacy shouldn't be allowed to be a factor in college admissions.

Maybe its just me, but I don't think many of those people are white and they definitely aren't rich. Once they give a shit about all those things, then they can talk about the injustice of discrimination.

[rocktivity]

32. Stop whining about how "wrong" they are, and COUNTERATTACK!!!

“We want to raise awareness that affirmative action shouldn’t be dealt with in such a simplistic matter,” organizer Terrence James said Thursday.
Spoken like a true flower child. Simplistic? Even "infantile" would have been a better choice of word. No wonder they think we're weak on defense. They're making the same mistake Kerry did--they need to get off the moral high road and FIGHT BACK!!!

And here's how: Have a fake "political pundit" sale--set prices for their opinions on different political issues. Better yet, take bets on who in the mainstream media is on the Bush White House payroll. Either way, have Jeff Gannon come in at the highest bidder!!!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Griffy]

35. They are.. with the truth..informing ppl is how we win.. in fair contests

Kerry won.. remeber that, and the High road must be maintained, or we are them!

[rocktivity]

40. Maintain the high road, yes, but you do have to take a detour occasionally

because they're bullies at heart, and bullies are less inclined to bully if they know they're going to get be bullied back. If Kerry had gone after the Smear Boat Liars the way he steered his swiftboat, he'd have won by a cheat-proof margin.

:headbang:
rocknation

[jdj]

36. they should protest...no tax on the baked goods if you are rich.

Make a little "offshore booth" where you can reach in a mailbox and get the baked goods for pennies each.

Put up a cardboard cut-out of Bush and then have a sign saying you can get the loads of doughnuts for free for donating a couple of bucks to him. Then have a Cheney cut-out beside him and a sign that says "donors feel free to just throw your trash on the ground" or something.

Have raggedly people begging at a sign with a booth that says "$10/pastry, sorry cost of inflation, no handouts".

Then next to that, a booth with a sign that says, "Free pastries, for fortunate sons only. Bought and paid for by daddy, on the backs of the american worker."

Damn, I wish I was there, I could really go to town with this one.

[applegrove]

51. I can see the chocolate eclairs now.

I can see the chocolate éclairs now. You buy one - and the people selling it get to eat it. You get crumbs.

I do wonder how fast the GOP will shut down its little games when people finally do take a big bite out of the culture of the rich. They hide quite nicely in the shadows. How would they feel if say Jon Stewart started to mock their problems. Like where to plant the begonias? To get the golf or the social membership for the $250,000 membership fee?

So far - all that these people have suffered is having to drive past small groups of protestors on inauguration day.


:freak:

[LinuxInsurgent]

53. this is an old tactic

They used to do it at the University of Massachusetts...it's a phony argument...they attempt to freeze the issue at the point where affirmative action gives a "helping hand" to women, and other minorities...without examining the years of institutional advantages that have piled up for whites. Whites enjoy de facto priviliges...the analogy is of several escalators...some moving faster than others. The white one is going the fastest...and what affirmative action does is attempt to lift the other groups to the same height traversed by the white escalator, even though their escalator has been going slow or even turned off.

If they really wanted to give fair treatment to the affirmative action issue through the analogy of the bake sale...then what they should really do is ask the University's blacks to bake them cookies FOR FREE (to symbolize slavery), ask women to bake the cookies FOR FREE (to symbolize unpaid home labor) and ask other minorities (like hispanic immigrants) to bake the cookies for 50% less than what a white would charge for the process (to symbolize lower wages). Then, they could proceed to sell the cookies at discounted rates for women and minorities (representing affirmative action's equalizing procedures and processes).

THAT would be a true reflection of society's inequality....the initial free or cheap labor by women and minorities would represent the privilige of white men...and the selling at discounted rates would represent affirmative action's leveling effect...while whites "suffer" from affirmative action's discounts to minorities and women.

Then...ask the participants...which group would they rather be in...would they:

A) Rather be a white person and pay the full dollar for the cookie, but never suffer any discounts in wage compensation or the consequences of slavery for their community. OR.

B) Rather be a woman, black, or other minority and SUFFER the consequences (baking the cookies at no or little compensation) but get a discount rate at the end.

You'll be surprised how fast the affirmative action complaints dry up...because, like Chris Rock said, no white person wants to be a black person...and HE'S RICH!

[pedestrian]

142. Class is almost as important, and is easier to do something about

Linuxinsurgent wrote: "Whites enjoy de facto priviliges...the analogy is of several escalators...some moving faster than others. The white one is going the fastest...and what affirmative action does is attempt to lift the other groups to the same height traversed by the white escalator, even though their escalator has been going slow or even turned off."

Here's just one concrete example of how. I recently visited a tutoring center (looking for a job), and was amazed at what difference access to for-profit tutoring can make for a child's achievement. The company guarantees that the child's performance will improve by at least one whole grade after 36 hours of tutoring, and 85% of the students do actually improve their grades by that much. When children whose parents can afford such quality tutoring compete with children whose parents can't, the rich students are bound to win. It does seem right that 'hard work' and 'merit' should determine who gets into college, but standardized test scores can't measure that.

I agree with the Carolinian that this is very much a class issue. If class were taken into account, for example by scaling students SAT scores according to family income or something, the 'beneficiaries' of this system would overwhelmingly be black or brown - but the occasional poor white student would not be left out. There ARE poor whites, and their poverty may also well be due to misguided policies - think of the child whose father's Vietnam war experience made him incapable of holding a job or completing an education, for example.

A practical problem with race-based AA as it was practiced, say, in the admissions office at UC Berkeley some years ago is illustrated by this case: A person I know got into UCB because of listing him- or herself as "Hispanic". This student has ONE Hispanic grandparent (the other three are White), comes from a comfortably off family, has English as mother tongue, and both parents are college-educated. I don't see why this student should be ranked before a poor white student whose parents never invested anything into his education. A practical complication about AA based on race or color is that it is hard to formulate clear criteria for who is to benefit without introducing further injustice.

A practical advantage of an AA system based on class (for example by scaling SAT scores according to family income) is the fact that information about income is readily publically available and verifiable. It might eliminate the need to rely on student essays detailing how awful their childhood was... A disadvantage would be a failure to compensate for underachievement due to internalized low expectations - one of the most vicious effects of racism. However, perhaps - just perhaps - an AA system based on class rather than color directly would provoke a little less outrage on the part of conservatives. And these days, getting some acceptance for any kind of AA at all might be a step forward.

The Pedestrian

[geniph]

54. See, my idea of an effective counter-protest to this

would be to set up the table selling the baked goods to white students at $1 apiece, then sell the crumbs off the table at the same price to non-white students. That'd be mirroring reality.

[Carolinian]

61. Another thread to bash white people, huh?

[Shakespeare]

65. Nope. Not at all.

If you think it does bash white people, please give specific examples from this thread.

[DrWeird]

104. supporting black people = bashing white people

to this kind of mindset. Us vs. Them. Black people get a chance to vote? Better lock up the white women.

It's really all based on fear, when you get down to it.

[Shakespeare]

114. "It's really all based on fear"

Yup. That is quite right.

[oasis]

138. "x" gets a bigger piece of the pie, therefore "y"s pie is smaller. BTW

"y" owns the bakery.

Should I have used a cookie?

[Ian David]

70. Some of my best friends are white people

I think a good counter-protest would be something like Michael Moore did with a taxi cab in The Awful Truth.

He drove around Manhattan refusing to give rides to white people. "Sorry, I'm only picking-up minorities today."

"Where are you going? 5th Avenue? Sorry, that neighborhood's too dangerous. It's full of insider-traders."

So, my idea would be to have a table full of cookies, but when white people show-up, you tell them, "Sorry, we don't have anymore cookies."

This has nothing to do with bashing white people. This is about demonstrating racism and the need for affirmative action.

It's only the racists fault that it is necessary. And racism and bigotry come in all colors.

But they don't get cookies!

[Ian David]

105. On further reflection, that wasn't the best example

That was more of an illustration of racism in general, not of affirmative action.

[Redleg]

94. Damn, you are sensitive. I don't see any white bashing here.

Of course I don't come to DU to look for it like others apparently do.

[Lindacooks]

109. No, just lame white people.

Any white (male, especially) person who is angry about affirmative action is a loser. White men have had it so good in this country for hundreds of years, with the 'good ol' boy network' and nepotism. And they still have the vast majority of the power, property, and money, even after decades of affirmative action.

This reminds me of a Calvin Trillin quote: "So we're in danger of giving African-Americans too much of a break??"

[Carolinian]

129. Keep the anger alive. It's helps us all, eh?

[blonndee]

125. Thou dost protest do much, methinks!!!! ha ha ha

[okcdem]

127. I agree

I'm amazed at the level of hostility shown towards whites here at DU.

[mac56]

130. Joking, of course.

nm

[GoddessOfGuinness]

62. Maybe the college republicans ought to get people talking about

the higher salaries that white males receive while they're at it.

[wildeyed]

116. Oooh, good idea.

The white men working the bake sale can get paid more than the blacks and women for doing the same work.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

117. Or pay them less...

Let them see how it feels.

[don954]

84. back home in Texas, there was a group who did this,

but at least they were honest about their hate, They called themselves the KKK, by the way...

[Behind the Aegis]

115. I wonder

If we were to abolish AA (affirmative action), I wonder what these assholes would whine about when they still weren't getting what they want. Racism has become more covert. Hell, look at this thread and the number of posts approve of this behavior, and not on the basis of free speech! The CR's need to get to KKKmart...I hear there is a "white" sale this weekend! Maybe they can even purchase the sheets with the eye holes in them at no extra charge, as that would be discrimination!

[seasat]

118. Here's why AA is needed in the present.

There is an almost perfect correlation between GPA and SAT scores with family income level and parental education.

(LINK)

Minorities tend to be lower in income and have parents that have lower education levels. College is a great equalizer. If you give a boost to those at the bottom because they have done better than expected based on their background then you raise society as a whole. I'm in my early 40's and I remember the racial tensions and riots that we had during desegregation in my high school days in the 70's. It wasn't that long ago and it takes several generations to alleviate the scars left by the racism back then. Minorities have made large gains however they still lag, when they achieve parity with the majority then lets talk about eliminating AA.

[98geoduck]

119. They oughta throw Turd Pies at em.

[Kimber Scott]

133. They've got it backwards, people of different sexes and colors already

get paid differently and in cases of purchasing cars and renting apartments, etc. have to pay more, or are turned down outright. Affimative action is meant to level that playing field.

[jmowreader]

134. Come on, guys, there's only one way to protest this

And that's to set up a table right across from the College Repuke table. This will be the Liberal Bake Sale:

Liberal portions--larger cookies, pieces of brownie, etc., than the Republicans have.

Liberal quality--better than the Republicans' stuff, because unlike the R's we actually care about our customers.

Liberal pricing--slightly lower than the CR's "minority" prices, because unlike Republicans, Liberals set a fair price instead of charging every nickel they can possibly get.

And a Liberal disposition of the money--all of it going to Tsunami relief, AIDS, or whatever, unlike the Repukes who intend to put the money into their club's bank account.

Oh, and make sure to take pictures of the customer-free CR table next to the crowded Liberal Bake Sale table, and post 'em on DU.

[Mountainman]

135. My question is this, why do people who seemingly have is so good (college

republicans) go though all this trouble to make it harder for other people to get what they have?

If I were well off I'd go about my life and I wouldn't give a shit about affirmative action. So if someone who ordinarily would have a harder time making it gets a hand up, what's that to me?

The rightful people who should be debating this issue are the people impacted by it, not the rich college repubs. Of course maybe they don't want to have to interview minorities for positions when it's there turn to take over daddy's business. Now who got a hand up there?

[blonndee]

139. Try talking to my freshmen. The majority of them are rich, white, Hummer-

driving, entitled Texans. They cannot COMPREHEND the idea that someone might not have the same opportunity as they. And if they don't, well, that just means they don't have as much money, which obviously means their parents weren't as hardworking as THEIR parents were.

I swear, one more semester teaching these spoiled ass brats, and I'm going to quit. Little fucking fascist pigs. I actually have one student whose first argument paper is that we should trust the government to make decisions to protect us, and we should not question them.

BLAHHHH.

[pedestrian]

143. AA is not (only) for justice on an individual level

Most arguments for AA emphasize how a colored and a white person competing for an asset may have faced very different hurdles on the way, and so AA is needed to compensate for these unjust differences.

Here's an example to illustrate another argument. Suppose the asset in question is a teaching job. One question is whether a white and a minority candidate for the position are in fact competing on equal terms, given their background or whatever. Another is which of the candidates will contribute the most to leveling the playing field for the students. If rôle models matter (and I guess they do!) it is important that the minority students be exposed to a competent representative of their group, confirming that one of theirs can become an educator.

AA in this case then, would not necessarily aim at compensating the minority candidate for anything, but aim at fairness for the students. Similarly, I think the justice of AA in certain professions that are highly visible in public (doctors, nurses, news reporters) is in the societal, structural effect it may have. If there are competent representatives of minority groups around, minority children may not need to bear the extra burden of being a pioneer. With AA we can make achieving minority candidates a part of the world minority children grow up in. AA can be used to hasten a genuinely representative society, so that minority children need not be all that extraordinary to achieve.

I guess this argument can be restated in a shorter and clearer way... Please do.

The Pedestrian

[Redleg]

146. Well stated.

I believe you are right about the impact of diversity on the public, students, patients, etc. Very important.

[Swamp Rat]

147. If I was a student there I would organize a mock "white person sale."

I'd get all my friends to dress up like politicians, political pundits, etc. and sell them for pennies. Only people of color would be allowed to buy the white women. For example, the Bush twins would be sold as concubines to a black, male fraternity. :D

Call it a lesson in race relations. :)

[proud patriot]

149. I swear you just tranced Abbie there Swamp Rat

:yourock:

[Swamp Rat]

150. That's true... I haven't felt like myself lately.

:D

[Judi Lynn]

153. I'd love to see that displayed at Talon News! Superb. n/t

[NuttyFluffers]

151. Instead of protests, hold "Legacy" bake sale

tit for tat.

hold a bake sale that asks whether the person is from a rich alumnus family, they get a free cake, but when they get it they must give an IOU to a middle class or poor student. and especially throw some racial fun into the mix. whites get a free brownie just for existing and their black, women, and other classmates must pay for it (representing the lack of paid taxes of the WASP upper crust, especially from dividends and capital gains).

fun thing is there'll be a complimentary effect. both tables would end up offering baked goods on the cheap and end up offsetting each other (mildly) with the bias in favor of white, upper class students.

reverse psychology. let's see how hot we can make that kitchen. see if these young republican boobs can take a dose of their own medicine. they'd probably bitch and moan, take all the cookies they can grab, shut down their booth and run away, just like all greedy YR jerks. but it'd prove what type of people they are (as if people didn't know...).

edit: yes, i'm unoriginal. the legacy idea has been mentioned before. but i just wanna re-enforce my support of the idea, and not get it lost in the huge wave of responses to this topic.

[Imperialism Inc.]

152. Structure for a counter bake sale.

To demonstrate the fallacy of the original bake sale students should set up a bake sale like this:

First of all half price cookies is unrealistic. I don't know how much of a discount minorities are getting but I very much doubt it is a 50% discount. If it is really say 20% (based on lower GPA standards and government grants and the like) then the price should be 50 cents and 40 cents or whatever it really is.

The setup for the sale should be one table with two lines. One for whites one for minorities. The line for whites should be lined with rose petals. The one for minorities should have mini brick walls (or facsimiles) to climb over and hula hoops that you have jump through to get to the table. Labels could be placed on these obstacles like "Racism/Discrimination", "Underfunded Schools", "Life Threatening Neighborhoods", etc.

That the person having to go through the difficult line would get a small discount once they get to the table, should not be so shocking to anyone. In fact people would probably think it should be a bit bigger discount.

It would be great if some students would set up something like this right next to the freepy one.

[pedestrian]

154. 'Black' names lose in the job market

If your name is Aisha, Keisha, Ebony or the like, you are 50% less likely to be called by the employer you send your resume to than if your name is Sarah, Jill, or Kristin, according to a study:

http://www.jsonline.com/bym/biz2biz/feb03/115864.asp
www.blackwebportal.com/wire/DA.cfm?ArticleID=1133

The Pedestrian