Parents Challenge School's Bible Classes (in public school)

[rainbow4321]

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/redir.php?jid=1a09f97ddd5d2789&cat=11caa946bf11fe44



When Heather and Logan Ward's son entered public kindergarten this fall, they were shocked to discover that pupils were taken from class to a nearby church for weekly Bible lessons.


The Wards moved to Virginia's Shenandoah Valley from New York four years ago, and were unaware of the tradition that has remained in Staunton and other rural schools for more than 60 years.


Now the Wards and other parents are asking the school board to eliminate or modify the program, which shuttles first-, second- and third-graders to churches during class time for voluntary half-hour Christian lessons and activities.

But the would-be reformers have run into staunch resistance. More than 400 people showed up to weigh in on the issue at a contentious school board meeting in December, and more than 1,000 signed a petition urging the school board to keep the classes.

[Reverend_Smitty]

1. How is that not totally illegal?

n/t

[JI7]

4. it IS illegal

and i'm sure these violations of the constitution are a big reason many of these areas are heavily Republican.

[Reverend_Smitty]

6. But it took them 60 years for someone to call them on that!?!

Even my 8 year old cousin would know that's a violation of the first amendment!

[JI7]

9. yeah, it shows how rooted it in those areas

even when they were Democrats in those areas (and some may still be) they were conservative religious types.

it seems most of these places that are being sued on church/state violations are usually from people who move into the area. it shows that within the community that has always been there it's just accepted and supported.

it might hurt in the short term but i think in the long term it would be best to crack down on these areas that are violating the constitution.

[milhistory]

22. It Is LEGAL

The Supreme Court has ruled that schools may have religious programs during the school day as long as they are conducted off campus. The Court also ruled that children may be bused (state supported) to and from religious schools because it did not violate the establishment clause.

See McCollum v. Board of Education and Zorach v. Clauson for the constitutionality of religious programs outside of the school building.

See Everson v. Board of Education for information on busing students

[milhistory]

23. The classes are legal

Please excuse this repost. This is my first time responding to a topic and I wanted my response to appear at the end of the responses, not at the beginning. If the editors wish to delete the duplicate post, please do so. Lesson learned.

The Supreme Court has ruled that schools may have religious programs during the school day as long as they are conducted off campus. The Court also ruled that children may be bused (state supported) to and from religious schools because it did not violate the establishment clause.

See McCollum v. Board of Education and Zorach v. Clauson for the constitutionality of religious programs outside of the school building.

See Everson v. Board of Education for information on busing students

[Damien]

25. thanks for the cases

And welcome to DU.

:yourock:

[gbwarming]

28. Wow, these are old cases. I think you're overextending these decisions

Everson allowed the states to pay for bussing of students who attend parochial schools since those are where thier compulsory education occurs. McCollum prohibited schools from allowing religious education during the schools day (where students are compelled to be) on school grounds. Zorach allowed students to leave public schools, on written request of their parents, to attend off-school religious education.

I'm no lawyer but I think you have a long way to go to show that this situation in Virginia is legal. there are also, btw, hundreeds of cases citing these three in the 53 years since they were heard.

Everson (1947)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=330&invol=1

McCollum
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=333&invol=203

Zorach
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=343&page=306
Decided April 28, 1952.

Edit: Welcome to DU!!

[milhistory]

29. Old, Yes, but still Valid

These cases are a bit dated, but unless there has been a more recent Supreme Court decision overturning them, they are still valid. If you know of any such cases, please let me know.

Old does not invalidate. For example, Marbury v. Madison was decided over 200 years ago and the Supreme Court still follows the policy of Judicial Review.

[immoderate]

30. I remember "release time" religious instruction.

Kids would leave early Wednesday afternoon and get bussed over to a church. Our school was mostly Jewish, and all of the Catholic kids and a few of the the Jewish kids left and went to instruction at different sites. Most of the observant Jewish kids had Hebrew school after school a few days a week. This was 50s to early 60s.

--IMM

[dflprincess]

32. We had this when I was in grade school

same time frame late 50s to early 60s. I lived in upstate New York and in my case it was us Catholic kids who were released early on Thursday and bused over to the Catholic school. At least half or more of the public school classes I was in were Catholic so the noncatholic kids basically got the afternoon off because there was no point in teaching with half the class gone.

[gbwarming]

33. Zorach required written consent from the parents

Of course you're right about the age of the decisions.

In the Staunton case the article says these parents didn't even know their kids were taken from school. That's not voluntary, and is not legal.

Edit: If the parents consent then I agree this could be legal. This article alleges that there is no alternative program for kids who do not go the the WRE. Zorach allowed school release because not doing so would be siding against religion, but if the schools provide nothing be idle time during WRE then it seems to me they are not neutral to religion.
---
http://www.augustafreepress.com/stories/storyReader$31647
Riddell counters that the school system assists the program unwittingly or otherwise by viewing WRE as the default in its assumptions that students will sign up for the classes - leaving those children whose parents do not want them attending WRE to a hodgepodge of unstructured classroom experiences.

Riddell, the mother of a kindergarten student in Staunton's public-school system, said many parents tell her that they sign their children up for WRE classes only because they wonder what they will do if they are left behind in the classroom.

[VegasWolf]

35. I would bet that paying for gas and bus maintenance out of school

funds violates the separation of church and state.
Let the parents put the kids in station wagons if
they want. What kind of church do you think
it might be, Buddhist?

[Bake]

34. Sad but true.

Personally, I think it's a travesty. And I'm a Christian.

Bake, Esq.

[paineinthearse]

2. Please post in the VA forum

and ask members to watch this for us.

Three questions come to mind:

1. Aren't students required to have X hours per day of instruction? If so, the transportation time to/from the church and the religious instruction/activities should not count.

2. Who is paying for the transportation?

3. How can the district legally take children away from the school without informing/getting consent of the parents?

[MountainLaurel]

8. Some answers

I had two friends who grew up in areas where this was the norm. Both have real interesting stories to tell about this. I can't answer your first one about hours per day, but I do think that can differ somewhat among jurisdictions. The general law refers to DAYS of instruction. I would gather that in this case the religious instruction is counting toward in-school instruction, or else those schools would need a totally different bus schedule.

As for transportation, in many cases the students can walk to the church, if it's located in town. Also, some churches have been known to place trailers just at the edge of the school property for this vrey purpose.

Regarding your third question, that's a very good one -- the school just assumes that the parent gives consent, no bones about it. One of the friends mentioned above was one of the first at her elementary school to NOT go to the church during the school day. At that time (early 80s), the school didn't even have an opt-out form for students. Nobody signed a permission slip to go -- you just went. Her mother had to write a letter to the principal instead, saying she was to stay at the school. Generally, she hung out in the library and read while the other kids were at church, which suited her fine. That was just a little bit of time when she wasn't being told by her teachers and classmates that she was going to burn in hell for being a pagan (her parents went to the UU church).

For my other friend, the situation was more tricky. Her father was the incoming superintendent of schools, who quite quickly decided this SOP was unconstitutional, discriminatory, and just plain wrong. For his efforts, he got death threats from these good Christian folk (his family was under the protection of the VA State Police), his children's friends were no longer allowed to talk to them, and he was attacked in a Burger King parking lot by a local minister. However, he didn't let their hatred stop him; instead, it just proved his point.

[paineinthearse]

10. .

:thumbsup:

[Tux]

11. oh

For his efforts, he got death threats from these good Christian folk (his family was under the protection of the VA State Police), his children's friends were no longer allowed to talk to them, and he was attacked in a Burger King parking lot by a local minister.

Christians that follow Jesus and not the OT really need to speak out more often for what good is left in Christianity. My dad is hardcore leftist Christian and he is thinking of dumping the Christian after watching Pat Roberton for 15 minutes.

[annabanana]

18. WOW.. That Super had some guts!

Is he still on the job? Or did the school board fire him? It was majorly courageous of him to take this stand.

[MountainLaurel]

20. He passed away a couple years ago

I'm not sure how long he stayed in that position (I think he was in that county until my friend graduated high school), but he was super in MD when he died very unexpectedly of a heart attack.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

3. Egads, my adopted state...

never ceases to amaze me.

""The people in those communities still have strong Christian faith and want their children to learn this," said JoAnne Shirley, state director of Weekday Religious Education, the private group that offers the lessons."

Then haul their little butts off to Sunday school every week!

[Longhorn]

5. When we first moved to Dripping Springs, outside of Austin,

in 1996, high school seniors were taken by school bus to the local Baptist church during the school day for a "senior event" called the "senior luau." But before the food and fun began, they had to sit through an hour of sermon by the minister! The senior class sponsor, also their English teacher, was a member of the church. Several parents complained so they changed it to an optional evening event, not held during the school day. Our oldest daughter chose to go; our twin daughters decided to go an hour late. ;)

This school also always scheduled the senior class picture to be taken just before the baccalaureate ceremony to try to intimidate students into attending. Our children got their pictures taken and left. (We're atheists.)

[usregimechange]

7. They need a field trip to Sudan! nt

[UL_Approved]

12. Fun with Fundies!!!

A new educational program for the religious neo-conservative.

Your children will learn about Separation of Church and State, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and our national history of rejecting a king who misused religion.

All of this for just the price of public education!

[0rganism]

13. Gotta love this tidbit...

Beverly Ridell, who grew up going to the Staunton schools, teaches first- and second-grade Sunday school at church and opposes religious classes during school time.

"I asked them whether Jesus was a Christian and they said 'yes.' When I said, 'Jesus was a Jew,'one girl said, 'But Jesus was a good person,"' Ridell said.
---

Ouch. What the hell do they learn in those classes anyway?

[JI7]

14. and that's the problem

or shows the limits of reaching out to religious people.

many times we talk in a way that assumes those people are reasonable and would like what we stand for if we could just do it in a way they can hear or understand it.

but when you have people who think being a Jew means you are not a good person then it's a whole different thing.

[Trillo]

15. I think Will Durant said it best....

But just in case my signature is missing from this post, as so often happens in these forums: Schools' PRIMARY PURPOSE IS INDOCTRINATION.

All other concerns are secondary with their shadowy agenda.

[Blue Gardener]

16. Indoctrinate them when they're young

Disgusting. I hope the Ward's continue to keep up the fight.

[biftonnorton]

17. The Dumbing Down Starts Early

and if the fundies have their way, it will continue to soak farther into the ed system like a foul wetspot taints clean bedding. I have lived in the Bible Belt for 10 years after moving from a blue state and it floors me how seriously people born and raised here take their Jeeeeesusssss. For instance, TN just this year got a lottery-- all these years people thought the lottery would be sinful. Churches sponsored opposition to it. Also, wine is not allowed to be sold in grocery stores (beer can be). Religious/morality-based thinking is simply part of law here, and it makes perfect sense that they'd just expect it to seep in to all other parts of life. Anyone trying to "liberate" them from the fundie tyranny of Christian-centered rules for law or public school is seen as the enemy and will be ganged-up on. :scared:

[LinuxInsurgent]

19. that is illegal..

seperation of church state...the school cannot ACTIVELY develop an education program that includes Christian lessons, much less in a CHURCH. What it can do is include "theology comparison" classes, in which, for the sake of historical review, it can compare the main teachings of various of the main religions...like a World Civilizations course...or modern and classical philosophies courses. In that context, as long as there is no official support of ONE religion over others (and that's where teachers have to be VERY careful), you can teach about the main tenets of the Koran, Torah, Bible, Buddhist Texts, etc.

This, however, is a flagrant violation of the church and state seperation clause. Although it would probably make them unpopular, these parents can sue in a court...and would easily win...because the evidence of kids being bused to a church for Christian teachings is overwhelmingly against the school's practice.

[MountainLaurel]

21. Relevant editorial in the WP

A recent news story in The Post about weekly Bible classes for public elementary school students in Staunton, Va., and the challenge some parents have brought against the practice, reminded me of my own experiences with religious education in public school. From 1946 through 1948, I went to an elementary school in rural Kentucky. One morning a week, school began an hour late so that students could attend Bible school at local churches.

Bible school was voluntary, although, according to the town newspaper, 99 percent of the students attended. My mother, the daughter of a Congregational minister, refused permission for me to go the first year. As our family had recently moved to Kentucky, I was a newcomer at the school and young for my class. I felt uncomfortable enough not to want to be singled out; not going to Bible school did just that. At the beginning of sixth grade, I begged my mother to allow me to attend. I thought I would seem less odd if I did what my classmates did. My mother relented, and I went to Bible school one morning a week.

Bible school was innocuous, as I remember it, but toward Easter we were asked who would like to join the Christian Church. Everyone raised his or her hand except me. I looked around, then raised my hand, too. The rest of Bible school consisted of preparing us for baptism. My reasons for wishing to be baptized were similar to my feelings about Bible school: I wanted to be accepted.

My mother was not happy. She pointed out that I had already been baptized a Congregationalist. But she did not say I couldn't join the Christian Church. She made me a white dress to wear for my immersion in a marble font behind the church podium. I allowed myself to become nervously excited about joining the church. But my grandfather, who had baptized me the first time, was furious when he learned what I intended to do. Visiting our house for Easter, he raged on and on about it. The next morning my mother took me to her bedroom, where my new dress hung behind the door, and said, "You cannot join the Christian Church." I nodded, having heard my grandfather's angry tirade. In truth, I was relieved. I had been worrying about drowning in the baptismal font even though at Bible school the minister instructed us on how to hold our breath. God, I decided, did not want me to join the Christian Church.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17602-2005Feb11.html

Basically, this young girl had to LIE to avoid being verbally abused by her teachers. Some moral values from those POS who forced her into that position.

:puke:

[deadparrot]

24. What the hell?

How can people pull this stuff? Why isn't anything enforced?

[GOPBasher]

26. I'm speechless.

One example of a really scary thing:


"I asked them whether Jesus was a Christian and they said 'yes.' When I said, 'Jesus was a Jew,' one girl said, 'But Jesus was a good person,"' Ridell said.

[geniph]

27. If people want kids given religious instruction during the school day

why the hell don't they send them to religious schools? Why don't they take them to church? Why does EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE, FOR EVERYONE have to be the same indoctrination? What does the Jewish kid, the pagan kid, the child of Buddhist parents, or the child whose parents believe in the principle of separation do? Why, he opts out and is immediately stigmatized by the brainwashed hordes.

This is downright sickening. I mean, I don't go into their churches and drag the kids out and insist on teaching them a biology class in the middle of Sunday School. Why do they persist in needing to do the reverse?

If you want your kids to be given religious instruction 7x24x365, then homeschool or send them to parochial schools.

[Dervill Crow]

31. Perfectly legal, but the parents should sign off on it.

My kids' elementary school is right next door to a church and the kids were offered classes there during school time, but it was optional and required parents' permission.

[immoderate]

36. Release time religious instruction is not a bad thing.

I'm an atheist. And as a child, I would have none of it, but I think that if parents want it, sending a kid out for an hour of religious instruction is not terrible. They might learn some good things.

The bonus was for us "left behinds." As stated by another poster, we would do fun stuff, like arts and crafts. More relaxed, best time of the week. I'm in favor of breaking up the week.

OTOH, I wouldn't want a child to feel pressure to conform to something he didn't believe in. And I could think of better uses of time.

--IMM