'Over my dead body'

[soup]

Sgt. Curtis Greene loved the military; the structure, the stability. But eight months in Iraq changed him. And the thought of returning led him to a stark proclamation.

By MARY SPICUZZA
Published February 13, 2005

SPRING HILL - The words haunt Lisset Greene as she struggles to understand what happened to the man she loved. Home from fighting in Iraq, he had grown depressed and distant as he witnessed thousands of his fellow soldiers head off to war.

Curtis Greene was angry about the war and frustrated with Lisset for not understanding what it had been like there. They argued, so fiercely that twice the police had to break it up.

Gone was the man smiling with her and the kids in family photos. "He was not the person I knew when he came back from Iraq."

One night he disappeared from their home outside Fort Riley, Kan. Lisset and the kids went to stay at her father's house in Hernando County. When he called her to apologize for running out, he promised he would come home to Fort Riley. But he wasn't about to return to Iraq.

"Over my dead body are they going to make me go back."
>snip<

On Dec. 6, he showed up for work, his uniform pressed, his boots polished. He sang cadence.

That night, he was found hanging in his barracks. Sgt. Curtis Greene, 331st Signal Company, was 25.
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/13/Hernando/_Over_my_dead_body_.shtml

[Swamp Rat]

1. .

:cry:

[leftchick]

2. oh God...

here is a clear example of someone needing psychological counseling and not getting it. There will be thousands more like him. My heart goes out to his family. RIP soldier, your country failed you in so many ways.

Iraq is NOT Vietnam indeed! :cry:

[saigon68]

26. THIS CASUALTY OF WAR WILL NOT BE COUNTED

It will be ignored by the BUSH CRIMINALS

58,000 were killed in Viet-Nam

More than 100,000 returning Vets from that CLUSTER FUCK have now committed suicide or drank themselves to death.

[TahitiNut]

63. "Those who fail to learn the lessons of history ...

... are called Republicans. :grr:

What a fucking godawful waste!

[serryjw]

71. I used to fundraise for homeless Veterans

The stories I heard. Americans think once the fighting is over everyone goes back to the suburban homes with a Starbucks. How far from the truth that is. I must admit I didn't KNOW the number was as high as 100,000. How many lives we lose from WAR. If there is a god, how will he ever forgive us? because of technology we are 'losing' less in Iraq than in Vietnam on the battlefield BUT with Bushit's cut back's how many will we lose after?

[laylah]

3. OMG!

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[TomClash]

4. Thanks Bush

Another one killed by the neocon movement - Bush, Cheney, Wolkowitz, Rumsfeld, Rice and the rest of them.

R.I.P. Sgt. Curtis Greene

[Skittles]

5. bastards

they make me SICK

[Voltaire99]

17. Try to remember: John Kerry planned to fight the war and "win"!

So let's be sure your list of names is inclusive. It should include the fools from our own party whose foolish, self-interested, or even foolish self-interested support made this war a reality.

This war is a GOP-Democratic Party co-production. And don't you forget it.

[KittyWampus]

28. Absurd. Your Post Is Irrational And Baseless. Your Signature Line Sums

up alot.

[bitchkitty]

32. ??? A little extreme maybe -

but baseless? I don't think so, if you look at the list of people who voted to go to war in Iraq.

[paulk]

38. baseless?

read the IWR sometime

the IWR gave Bush authority under certain provisions - all of which he violated.

Bush should be impeached for what he did.

Instead, blame Kerry.

[JNelson6563]

50. And take a look at the amendments offered to IWR

(by good Dems) that got voted against by Dems. Amendments that would've curbed the trained chimp's war powers. It is scandalous.

Julie

[Griffy]

36. BS.. its a product of PNAC facists and neocons!

Kerry would have done everything different... starting with allowing inspectors more time. You dont understand the dems too well.. do you. I agree they didnt stand up against bush as much as I'd like, but bush was going to do what he and his cronies wanted... dems had no real power to stop him... just the power to feul the fires of what wussies dems are. We dont have any branch of government OR the media anymore.... most Dems didnt want this war, dont you remeber Kerry and other gave bush the power to wage war, hoping he would use it as leverage. Kerry said "wrong war, wrong place wrong time" .. and dont YOU forget it!

[buzzard]

56. I think Kerry would have acted much differently, he would have fought the

war on terror not a war for oil.




Quote of Kerry's from NYU speech

"Yet today, President Bush tells us that he would do everything all over again, the same way. How can he possibly be serious? Is he really saying that if we knew there were no imminent threat, no weapons of mass destruction, no ties to Al Qaeda, the United States should have invaded Iraq? My answer is no -- because a commander in chief's first responsibility is to make a wise and responsible decision to keep America safe."

"Two years ago, Congress was right to give the president the authority to use force to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. This president -- any president -- would have needed the threat of force to act effectively. This president misused that authority."

[Laurab]

66. Try to remember * stared this war

That this poor man died because of a war that bushit started - a preemptive war that was unprecedented, entered into WITHOUT going through the diplomatic measures that he said he would go through, prior to considering war as "a last resort". This poor man died because of GEORGE W. BUSH'S WAR. John Kerry had NOTHING to do with it, aside from being fooled by the lies of this administration, as many people were. We were already AT war when John Kerry made those statements about the war. WTF did you expect him to say?

Try to remember that the purpose of DU is NOT to bash John Kerry as often as possible, in as many threads as possible, no matter how much of a stretch it is, to get it to become about bashing John Kerry.

[thereismore]

69. Not baseless

All that voted to enable this wimp to wage war using other people's children have a finger in the pie.

[Lost4words]

6. very sad,........

[rainy]

30. I want that on a bumper sticker PLEASE, someone make it

and let me know where I can get it. 86 43

[izzie]

7. Sad I must say----

Maybe killing any thing that moves in not in this man? I do not think that the service pointed out anything about these countries to these young men. They sort of think we can force feed them a type of govt. like ours and the Iraqi people will accept it. People are not all alike and the men in DC know this but they also seem to have the same mind set. It is very odd that our govt. seem to be so bull headed on this. You just can not make an Am. out of every one and these young men are really seeing it first hand.

[mhr]

8. Bush, The Destroyer Of Countries, Families, Soldiers, And Citizens

eom

[DeepGreen]

9. For each death, the soul of once was, or was thought to be, the US

becomes dimmer. May you rest in peace Curtis Greene.
My sorrow is for you and those you left behind.
My rage is for those who support the cause of these
tragedies.
:cry:

[aaronbees]

10. Damn it ....

So freakin' heartbreaking.

Scary quote from the article: "Iraq is Vietnam without water," he said. "We will see a great deal more of this."

:( Very true.

[Pinboy]

53. The person quoted (VN without water) was a conscientious objector . . .

. . . who was drafted and, unwilling to kill, he served as an army medic in Vietnam.

[dbt]

11. Are there any OTHER reasons not to go to War lightly?

Will we EVER FUCKING LEARN that War is a last resort? Reckon not...

:freak:
dbt

[Cooley Hurd]

14. When you have an emotionally stunted buffoon making such decisions...

...in charge of the country, the answer is never. Never will we learn.

[Pirate Smile]

48. That is exactly why having Chicken Hawks who don't understand

the magnitude of War is such a monumental disaster.

Bill Clinton didn't serve but recognizing this,he respected the opinions and experience of the people who had seen War. These assholes think they know better.

The current occupants of the WH didn't serve and disregarded the warnings of the Military and people who actually experienced War first hand.:grr:

[UL_Approved]

12. I wonder how the suicide figures for Iraq compare to Viet Nam and WWII

I wish that somebody would compile a list of suicide rates for Viet Nam, Iraq, and World War II in order to see how this current war sits with people. I know that PTSD affects people from every war, but what are the suicide figures?

People who see our troops as heroes are right. They go over to areas that they don't want to be in, do the dirty business of war, and do so for little pay or thanks. But where is our end of the bargain? Where do we support these people after the fact.

Our country exists because of the U.S. military. Why do we shy away from these people when they need to depend upon us for THEIR existence?

[Daphne08]

39. My father was a WWII veteran, and

my mother and grandmother told me that he was never the same man after he returned home. (He saw some of the fiercest fighting and never... never spoke about his war years to me or anyone else except to relate a couple of humorous incidents. He had gone in with some of his friends, and as far as I know, they were they only ones with whom he discussed the war. One of them had been a POW.)

My father was a wonderful man and a good provider even though he was subject to bouts of depression from time to time.

He committed suicide at approximately 6:30 PM on Dec. 7 (I prefer not to give the year). He'd been watching some news stories about Pearl Harbor when my mother left to go to a meeting. When she returned he was dead.

I have no statistics except one, and I'll never be convinced that the date of his death was a coincidence. It is one of the reasons why I hate war so very much.

[mahina]

42. Thank you for telling us about him.

Seems like lots of us who know the costs better than * hate war.

One of the few things that my dad hated about the army was that ever now and again, not often but often enough, you would be lead by an idiot who you had to follow even if he lead you into danger foolishly.
Boy aint it the truth. Feels like we're all in it now.



:hug:

[Spiffarino]

46. My father, WWII vet, same result

He killed himself 20 years after he fought on Iwo Jima. Anyone who knew him said he was never the same person after his war experience.

I am thankful he and so many others joined up and did their duty because I believe it was a war against totalitarianism and it had to be fought. However, things like this slam home the point that war should always - ALWAYS - be a last resort. War's destruction does not always end when the war ends.

[designforce]

13. Sorry to say

This is going to be happening for a long time to come. The stress of being in a combat zone is great, and no amount of flag waving will cure it. Guess the prez and his crew wouldn't understand that as they are all chickenhawks.

Wonder what will happen WHEN we invade Iran?????

[leftchick]

15. we will have to have a draft before that happens..

first things first.

[mahina]

40. Please examine that idea more closely. I think it's an error to say that

The reason you think it will only stop with a draft is that enough people will mobilize, see it as their problem and get of their asses and commit to do whatever it takes, and not stop.
I beleive we can accomplish that without waiting for * 's draft.
Because I'll tell you what, they'll get my kids over MY dead body and that is no lie.
My father volunteered for Vietnam and it broke his heart.
This family fought in ever war since the revolution and I will not, WILL NOT
let my kids be used for this.

[Laurab]

67. You and I both , Mahina

I have told both of my (draft age) kids that, and I mean it. Over my dead body. Not for one of *'s wars of choice - no way, no how. Let the repuke voters be drafted, they wanted it.

[Raine]

16. Awful just awful

that poor man. I hope chimp rots in hell for all the grief he has brought to so many. :mad:

[Voltaire99]

18. The love that kills

The "structure and stability" are props used to keep people like the lamentable Sgt. Greene from examining their lives.

They are, in short, blinders. The ancient tools of obedience and conformity.

How terrible when the blinders are off, and it becomes clear that what was beloved was actually a blueprint for mass murder, for the slaughter of innocents, for the theft of a people's land, for wanton conquest...

...with you at the center of the plans. Who can live with that knowledge?

RIP, Sgt. Greene. Shame on all who support this war; they are the co-authors of his suicide. And let Siegfried Sassoon have the last word:


Suicide in the Trenches


I KNEW a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.

In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.
. . . .

You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you’ll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.

(1918)

[teryang]

19. His widow needs to file survivor benefits claims

She seems not to fully understand that her husband did have PTSD and died from it.

Suggesting that he may have had a pre-existing disorder is doing the survivors a diservice.

The notion that you can pro-actively do something about PTSD is completely unproven. As long as those afflicted are in the combat zone the idea that progress can be made is absurd in my opinion.

[ET Awful]

20. RIP Sergeant Green

This Army veteran salutes you with more willingness and respect than I ever did any officer.

This one's for you:

If you are able,
save them a place
inside of you
and save one backward glance
when you are leaving
for the places they can
no longer go.
Be not ashamed to say
you loved them,
though you may
or may not have always.
Take what they have left
and what they have taught you
with their dying
and keep it with your own.
And in that time
when men decide and feel safe
to call the war insane,
take one moment to embrace
those gentle heroes
you left behind.

- Col. Micheal Davis O'Donnell, Jan. 1, 1970, Dak To, Vietnam, Killed in Action on March 24, 1970 in Cambodia.

[LinuxInsurgent]

21. No...that's so sad..

Man...I wish I could have spoken to him...I know people who would have helped him cross over to Canada or leave the country...

He didn't have to die....may he rest in peace...i'm sure that his refusal to kill others was viewed gracefully by God...who must have him in his arms right now.

[Solly Mack]

22. I hate Bush

[soup]

27. oh, Solly

those three words sent me off again. Can't seem to get through the rest of the article no matter how much time I give it, and coming back to the responses on the thread, I just break down.

Your husband was in Iraq, wasn't he? I'm sorry if posting this caused you further pain.

The good? news is, this is the center story, front page, of the widely distributed Sunday edition of the St. Petersburg Times. I hope everyone far and wide takes the time to try to read it. If it doesn't cut through to the very core of whoever sees it, they have no heart. none.

It's a very important read.

front page capture here (bottom row center - a knight's move away from the big front page pic of the 'new' grinning Rumsfeld featured in the Stars and Stripes)-
http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/

Further good? news, the front page of the Colorado Springs Gazette - http://www.gazette.com/index.php - is carrying an article titled 'Paying the Price'. Haven't read it yet, but maybe some eyes are being opened today. Let's hope so.

[Solly Mack]

29. Thank you, soup...for caring. Yes, he was there....

Sometimes "I hate Bush" is all I can say when I read stories like this one. My own fears bubble so close to the surface...and I rather just be angry.

Almost a year after my husband's return and we are still wrestling with his depression. It's nowhere near as bad as some, but it still hurts...

Thank you for your words of concern. They really do mean a lot to me.

[soup]

33. The scars they bring home

go much deeper than the purple hearts they carry with them. The demons that lurk inside don't just go away because their deployment is over. The trip home doesn't magically erase the experience.

This article absolutely clobbered me emotionally. I am overwhelmed with sadness for this man, for his family. 35 years ago, I couldn't help the man who came home. It didn't end as tragically as this, but it was a big part of what broke us as a couple. His demons were stronger than we were. Damn, this opened some very old wounds.

Give me a bit of time and the anger will replace the sadness. They deserve so much more than this. So much more.

I wish you and your husband only the best and may your love for each other be strong enough to see you through.

Cakewalk. *phheh*

[mahina]

41. same here,

:hug:

[Solly Mack]

44. I wish I could really hug you

:hug:

[DARE to HOPE]

55. Oh, dear child, dear Solly and everybody...

Depression is a natural response to what he has been through. He should give himself credit for having a heart, mind and spirit that have been badly injured, but that they still WORK. It shows he can still feel, even when he thinks he's not.

Take every little thing we know to heal depression and run with it: sunshine in the morning, some happy form of exercise (NOT "workout,") music that you like that's peaceful, hot chocolate made with coconut milk (less sugar is better--try xylitol, NOT NutraSweet,) sardines plus B vitamins to heal the brain, coconut oil makes both work even better, hugs from your children, date night out, or tea or cocoa by the fireplace, with your sweetheart (TV turned OFF) for deep chats--not about war, but about depths of hope, faith, love. And rent or go to movies you can LAUGH AT. (Turn OFF the news.) When he is ready, talking with his fellow vets.

I also believe in hot salt baths, or swimming, or any reproduction of the baptism experience. And dear ones, the loving God who made us all LOVES US EACH SO MUCH, no matter WHAT we have done! The season of Lent is upon us, and today's lessons, about how God breaks His own rules to show us love! is the most healing, wonderful place to be in the world.

We ALL have sinned and fallen short. In order to lay to rest some of the images in his head, he will need to purge these. But he cannot purge, wash out, until he is able to accept himself as part of the whole bloody mess. It is the human condition. And the illusion that we Americans learn, that we have so much power over ourselves, is just not how most of the rest of the world lives.

He will find his "manhood" again, really, his humanity, if he can allow himself to weep, for what he has done, for what has been done to him. The only thing he is responsible for now is to allow himself to feel that pain, and learn how to heal it. Like a parent who has lost a child, one can harbor that forever, or that can empower one to work for change in the world.

Think of John Kerry. He was changed by what he experienced in Viet Nam (and I don't mean to minimize--every soldier's experience is different.) Then he put it all into a whole new fight. His own R Catholic faith helped him wrestle with those demons, I am sure.

Those demons sprang out of evil minds, evil, greedy, selfish minds and hearts of this administration with no compassion or empathy. THAT is what makes one a monster. NOT the depression that your husband is wrestling with in the aftermath of what he has been through. Sort of like a rape victim, he has to find ways to wash it out of himself. And he can do that with the support and love of the God who knows his very name.

Much love and prayers for you all.

[SammyWinstonJack]

37. I hate bush

:grr:

[tlcandie]

23. So tragic ... but isn't it all so very tragic and needless?

:cry: And then you read this....

<snip>
He got out of his Texas-based battalion after about eight months by re-enlisting in the Army, Lisset said. He was able to return to the United States by signing up for another three years with the 331st Signal Company, 1st Brigade, 1st Infantry Division, stationed at Fort Riley, she said.
<snip>

It's saying that in order for him to get home, he re-enlisted, knowing deep inside that it was a last ditch effort to see his loved ones so he could hopefully sort through the crap in his head and heart. How many more are re-enlisting for the same reasons....just to get home for time with loved ones?

Unbelieveable that it had to come to any of this!!!

[gademocrat7]

24. another casualty

of bush's senseless war.. another family that has been destroyed.

[hootinholler]

25. Sadly, he will not be counted among the war dead. N/T

[rodeodance]

31. ummm ...suicides not counted as casulties.. The numbers need to get

out and see if anyone in Congress bites?

[bluedog]

34. I read this article

in the St.Times this morning and my heart just aches for this family.......many many soldiers are in this "war" because they were "ordered" to....and for What?........they are even asking the question..............what are we fighting for?.............why so many lives wasted...........all because a "madman bush" wanted to INVADE a country that could not fight back????????he wanted to make the United States of America the bully nation!!!!!!!!!

[llmart]

35. Most Americans will read stuff like this......

and rationalize it all by saying, "Oh, he was probably troubled even before he went." I'm sorry, but that's the truth. We are not a compassionate nation. We just pay lip service to it. We do the easy stuff like slap a magnetic ribbon the back of our car and then think we've done our part. Not all of us, of course, but the majority.

[lebkuchen]

43. War is a hoot for General Mattis, for him, killing is fun

How many of our lower ranks returning from Iraq are likely to seek the professional health care they need when a 3-Star General gets so pumped over killing?

If Mattis led by example and sought the mental health care he so desperately needs, I feel certain others of lesser rank would follow.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

45. Patriot Dream

The songs of the wars are as old as the hills
They cling like the rust on the cold steel that kills
They tell of the boys who went down to the tracks
In a patriotic manner with the cold steel on their backs

The patriot's dream is as old as the sky
It lives in the lust of a cold callous lie
Let's drink to the men who got caught by the chill
Of the patriotic fever and the cold steel that kills

The train pulled away on that glorious night
The drummer got drunk and the bugler got tight
While the boys in the back sang a song of good cheer
While riding off to glory in the spring of their years

The patriot's dream still lives on today
It makes mothers weep and it makes lovers pray
Let's drink to the men who got caught by the chill
Of the patriotic fever and the cold steel that kills

Well there was a sad, sad lady
Weeping all night long
She received a sad, sad message
From a voice on the telephone
Her children were all sleeping
As she waited out the dawn
How could she tell those children
That their father was shot down
So she took them to her side that day
And she told them one by one
Your father was a good man ten thousand miles from home
He tried to do his duty and it took him straight to hell
He might be in some prison, I hope he's treated well

Well there was a young girl watching in the early afternoon
When she heard the name of someone who said he'd be home soon
And she wondered how they got him, but the papers did not tell
There would be no sweet reunion, there would be no wedding bells
So she took herself into her room and she turned the bed sheets down
And she cried into the silken folds of her new wedding gown
He tried to do his duty and it took him straight to hell
He might be in some prison, I hope he's treated well

Well there was an old man sitting in his mansion on the hill
And he thought of his good fortune and the time he'd yet o kill
Well he called to his wife one day, "Come sit with me awhile"
Then turning toward the sunset, he smiled a wicked smile
"Well I'd like to say I'm sorry for the sinful deeds I've done
But let me first remind you, I'm a patriotic son"
They tried to do their duty and it took 'em straight to hell
They might be in some prison, I hope they're treated well

The songs of the wars are as old as the hills
They cling like the rust on the cold steel that kills
They tell of the boys who went down to the tracks
In a patriotic manner with the cold steel on their backs

The train pulled away on that glorious night
The drummer got drunk and the bugler got tight
While the boys in the back sang a song of good cheer
While riding off to glory in the spring of their years

The patriot's dream still lives on today
It makes mothers weep and it makes lovers pray
Let's drink to the men who got caught by the chill
Of the patriotic fever and the cold steel that kills

-- Gordon Lightfoot

[fooj]

47. I have goosebumps the size of marbles on my arms...

This tragedy sent chills all over my body! OMG!:cry:

[never cry wolf]

49. damn it, why did I click the link...

so damn sad...

:cry:

FUCK YOU BUSH!

[yorkiemommie1]

51. when will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?

yah, bush, bring it on! bullying, bellicose, ignorant bush and his cronies. too chicken to do more than play 'soldier' while ruining thousands of lives.

[martymar64]

52. Deja Vu all over again

When I was a kid, in 1973, my next door neighbor shot up the neighborhood. He was shot by the police. It's so heartbreaking that this and other incidents will continue.

[earthboundmisfit]

54. So much blood - SO GODDAMN MUCH BLOOD - on this administration's hands...

The Bush family, the Cheneys, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice, Ashcroft, all of them - EVERY GODDAMN ONE OF THEM. And as much as they say they they "feel" for the tragic losses, has ANY one of them a personal family member trapped in this f*cking debacle? I'll wager: HELL NO!!!
How can any of these people EVER look in the mirror again, much less smile & chuckle & crack jokes to us??? i am sick and just f*cking DISGUSTED.

[DARE to HOPE]

58. They don't feel, that's just the thing...

The very definition of evil is that human being who has no empathy.
That is why they can so easily justify torture, and all that "shock and awe."


They will face their Judge one day.

[Behind the Aegis]

57. I should know better!

Why, oh why do I clink on posts like this?! It sounds as if I had the same reaction as most here. You read the article, then comes the bombshell! Does no one in our administration have a heart? Are they not moved by this? It is bad enough that innocent Iraqis are dead, but do they not even care about their own countrymen?! The religious-right is so fucking concerned about the "soul" of the country, who is worried about its heart?!?!

[d_b]

59. ..

[malmapus]

60. He never got a chance to come home

He was still there, its been 10 years plus since I saw combat and I'm just now really finding my way home as my fiancee's dad puts it (he is a NAM vet and really has been a help for me to be able to talk to..I never ever talked about what I went through to anyone..man had soo many blow outs with my family before cause they'd never understand. But when I met Frank, iunno..seem to come at a point in my life where I was really having trouble with my demons). But will be living with what I saw and went through for the rest of my life.

We would hear about suicides in Haiti and Somalia too, in country and after coming home.

War sucks, combat sucks

[Pinboy]

61. Welcome Home, Malmapus

PTSD sucks, too. You are not alone. Hang in there, and hang on to those supports you have, like you fiancee's dad.

[karlrschneider]

62. We never hear about this part:

" For the first time, the Army sent a team of mental health experts to assess the military's behavioral health system in an active combat campaign. The team was sent after a dramatic spike in soldier suicides - with five soldiers taking their own lives in Iraq in a single month."
=================================================================

:grr: :cry:

[Rex]

64. Thousands more just like him.

Soldiers are NOT machines! They think and reflect when not in harms way. Guess what, next step is merc units formed from those in the population who need the money. This guys going to go mad soon.

[Crazy8s]

65. This happened in my back yard, so to speak

I live in Hernando County--on the west side of Brooksville (Spring Hill is to the east). A sad end to a life. I shudder to think of all the messed up kids this Bush* war is creating. They certainly don't seem to be getting the mental help they need after combat--instead they're just patched up and shipped back to the war.

[lala_rawraw]

68. There are not

Enough prayer the fabricated Christian right can ever use to wash this much blood off their hands. My only hope is that if there is a hell, their hell will be the torment of every single life they affected with their moral values of murder, rape, torture, and greed.

[EMTQueen]

70. I'm so pissed.

This is ridiculous and there are still millions of people in this country who think that this is a noble war. We're going to see so much of this decades down the road. My father was in the Army and fought in Vietnam. Whatever he endured there screwed him up and he dealt with PTSD and drank himself to death nearly six years ago. Imagine being only 13 when that happened and not really understanding how or why it came to that conclusion.

And "They"* are cutting programs that would help the soldiers out when they finally do return home.





* "They" is in quotations b/c I truly don't think that anybody in the Bush admin and those who support it are human. They certainly don't have souls, minds, or hearts.

[serryjw]

72. Now that is an OXYMORON

noble war! This thread tears me apart. I know because of * the funds are not there to help our returning kids. The families are not wealthy, not sophticated to know their rights. Tell me ...How do you stop this? Kids will grow up w/o their parents. Does anyone know IF any woman have committed suicide?

[carnie_sf]

73. Wilfred Owen

British Officer, and casualty of WWI had this to say:

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks
Knock-Kneed, coughing like hags we cursed through sludge
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind
Drunk with fatigue, deaf even to the hoots
Of tired outstripped five-nines that dropped behind


Gas!Gas! Quick, boys! - An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty pines and thick green light
As under a green sea I saw him drowning


In all my dreams, before my helpless sight
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory
The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori


Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori translates roughly as:
It is sweet and just to die for one's country (Fatherland).