Last Fatima witness dies

[Minstrel Boy]

Last Fatima witness dies

From correspondents in Lisbon
February 14, 2005

LUCIA de Jesus dos Santos, the last survivor of three children to whom the Virgin Mary is said to have appeared at Fatima in central Portugal, has died, aged 97.

Her death at a convent in Coimbra, central Portugal, was reported by the Lusa news agency today.

She has been described as one of the women to have most influenced Catholicism in the 20th century.

The apparitions made Fatima one of Catholicism's most revered sites.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12240482%255E1702,00.html

[Warpy]

1. Funny how all this stuff stopped happening

as soon as film became widely available.

Yes, I'm a cynic. I survived Catholic school.

[JVS]

2. LOL

[VegasWolf]

4. Agree 100% from another survivor of Catholic school!! n/t

[Stunster]

26. What are you looking for?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=6366#6712

[VegasWolf]

52. Nothing at all, I've already got the woman of my dreams. n/t

[mondohondo]

11. Film?

What do you mean? Film was widely available in 1917

[VegasWolf]

53. Film at 10 only on FOX Newz. n/t

[amazona]

16. film was widely available in the 1980s

When the Virgin appeared at Medjugorgie.

This stuff never stops happening. Sometimes it is considered worthy of being reported, more often it isn't.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Athame]

3. Could she be Deep Throat?

:silly:

[IndianaGreen]

5. Did she make a death bed confession?

Did she reveal anything that undercuts the mythology of Fatima, or of the Papacy?

Even a saintly person like Mother Teresa wrote about her own doubts about her faith.

[Delphinus]

12. We would never know, would we?

We still haven't heard the real third secret.

[VegasWolf]

6. Off the point, but the last believer in Thor died a long time ago too! n/t

[JVS]

7. I'm sure that a DUer who believes deeply in Thor will jump on you for that

[mondohondo]

13. Let me handle this

This is one of the things that I truly dislike about DU. There is such disrespect for people of faith. Such scorn should be reserved for Republicans. Not people of faith and goodwill.

[Toucano]

17. What goodwill came from the hocus-pocus

Fatima stuff?

I'm asking because I don't know.

[Stunster]

28. You're only saying it's hocus pocus

because it doesn't fit in with your worldview.

You dismiss all evidence that doesn't conform to that worldview, and then demand that you be given evidence.

How illogical and irrational is that? How closed-minded?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=6366#6712

[VegasWolf]

31. Demanding evidence is irrational? Okay. n/t

[Stunster]

32. Look at it then!

What in fact you do is dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't fit into your worldview.

That's what's irrational.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=6366#6712

[VegasWolf]

33. You keep repeating yourself. Again, what is irrational about demanding

evidence?

[Stunster]

34. Here's some

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=6366#6712

Look at it.

I predict you'll dismiss it, though, because it doesn't fit into your worldview.

That's what's irrational and illogical and closed-minded---demanding evidence, and then dismissing the evidence that is given to you because it doesn't fit into your preconceived notion of how the world must be.

[VegasWolf]

40. Again! You simply repeat yourself and point to religious websites.

Why don't you argue that bush is wonderful and point me to FAUX Newz?
Without evidence all one has is blind faith, and bind faith is
most assuredly NOT part of my worldview.

[Stunster]

45. Check and translate the relevant edition of O Seculo then (n/t)

[AP]

49. The thing about faith is that the more evidence there is against it,

the stronger it should get.

You can't tell people what they should believe.

[Toucano]

35. Not at all.

People see things that aren't true all the time. The brain is very good at creating stories to make sense of the world.

Sometimes, it even happens to masses of people all at the same time.

Remember the Salem witch trials? A whole lot of people had all sorts of hallucinations that turn out to be due to a grain infestation. Before it was done, though, the believers had killed over 30 people. Lot's of holy goodwill in that!

I fully expect that 70,000 people whipped into a frenzy, expecting to see a miracle, will no doubt experience something unusual.

Believe whatever story you want to believe. Just don't expect your belief to be given the same credit as facts.

I'm still not sure you've explained what "goodwill" came from Fatima. How were the lives of the people improved as a result? Did they fall deeper into their delusions? Were they kinder to their children? Did they sin no more?

[Stunster]

37. What about the anticlerical newspaper journalist?

I quoted him, and you just ignore it.

Unconscious bias at work? Yes, there would seem to be. Yours!

[Toucano]

39. Oh, yes.

He drank the same water that contained the biological contaminant.

A body gets thirsty in a mass of 70,000 people desperate to see a sign from God!

[Stunster]

44. That's BS

and you know it.

[Toucano]

47. No it isn't

It's a lot more REASONable than the appearance of dead woman handing out "secrets".

And you know it.

Omnipotent beings sure do like their secrets, don't they!

Still waiting to hear about the "goodwill" of Fatima.

[Stunster]

48. Your problem

is that instead of allowing evidence to shape your worldview, you ensure your worldview determines what gets to count as evidence.

That's irrational, illogical, and closed-minded.

[megatherium]

55. I read the book on Fatima by Walsh.

In it, he describes a mysterious blood red light that appeared in the sky above Europe before the outbbreak of WWII, in 1938, as per the Fatima prophecy. The writer, a historian, claimed that this light was supernatural, that no explanation was offered by astronomers. I made note of the day this was said to have happened, and went to the library to read the New York Times. According to the Times, it was a red aurora, fairly rare (occuring at that latitude every 10 years or so), but neither mysterious or particularly unusual.

[VegasWolf]

25. What do you mean? People at one time belived in Thor and figured

that he was the path to an eternal reward. The history
of religion is littered with the corpses of dead gods.

[VegasWolf]

29. and don't get your panties in such a wad, Jeez to react to that

you must have sensitive skin.

[Thor_MN]

23. Say what?

I don't understand why people get all riled up about one creation myth over another. Maybe it's because I recognize them as creation myths...

[VegasWolf]

27. Exactamundo! n/t

[athenap]

54. I believe in you, Thor_MN

...sorry...couldn't resist...hit me with Mjollnir if you must...I think it's the Loki in me.

[LeftyMom]

56. Nope

There are a few heathens out there. :)

[jbnow]

8. I remember caring a lot

about Fatima when I was in elementary school. That was after 1960 when the 3rd secret was supposed to be revealed. I irritated nuns and priests asking why they weren't doing it and when they would. I was told I couldn't question the pope.

I left the church in 5th grade because I thought it was hypocritical crap and I didn't think about it much. In the 80's I met an ex-priest who'd been stationed in Rome and I asked him about it. He said vaguely that the choice was made not to "panic the flock" but didn't answer why if they believed in it they would assume they knew better then Mary.

I didn't think of it again until it was "revealed" in 2000 and I knew they were lying about it. (Of course I don't really know) I wondered if the surviving witness was one who knew what it had really been or if she'd be free to speak out.

I have no memory of what the earlier secrets were and I am not saying this was valid, but I guess Lucia won't be telling us what she thinks now.

[saracat]

9. What was the third secret?

I am a Catholic School survivor as well. I don't really remember the other two except for something about praying the Rosary to end Communisum?

[Mz Pip]

10. THe third secret

was a prediction of the attempted assassination of the pope. PErsonally I thought it was a big let down.

I remember spending a bunch of time on some website that was all about the secrets of Fatima and what the third secret was. Pretty weird stuff. To have it come out that is was this assaaination attempt seemed pretty lame.

I rmember reading all aboaut Fatima in Catholic School. Pray for the conversion of Russia was a big message.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Delphinus]

14. Mz. Pip,

we've never heard the true third secret. There's no way that what came out in 2000 would have made the pope in the 60's faint and tremble.

[Branjor]

15. Attempted assassination?

Maybe it was successful. Remember John Paul I?

[Minstrel Boy]

19. the Third Secret is "the worst you could imagine-and then some."

FWIW, here's something today on another board about Fatima:


Kathleen Keating said the Third Secret is "the worst you could imagine-and then some." Keating said her conversations in the past with Father Malachi Martin convinced her that the "secret" discussed in Fatima Sunday fall short of the actual prophecy, which foretold a "mechanism," such as a coronal mass ejection or comet, that would create chaos and havoc on the Earth, enabling the antichrist to keep mankind from God´s salvation. (Paranormal News)

Art - Do you recall his saying it would be the worst that you could imagine?

Kathleen - Right, and then some.

Art - And then some? And it´s worse than that?

Kathleen - It is. It is enough to drive the strongest person nuts.

Art - How close to all of this do you think we are now?

Kathleen - I think you´re going see part of it happening within a year or two.

Art - Within a year or two?

Kathleen - Within a year or two, if not sooner. From what I´ve been told, the mechanism is in place, and it is moving.

When questioned why the last of the Fatima vision had been withheld from the world and Catholics in particular, Ms Keating answered the reason was two-fold:

1. it might have shaken the faith of Catholics so severely that they would have fallen away from the church many years ago.

2. no one wants to assist the Antichrist in any shape or form (rense archive)

Kathleen Keeting - Final Warning

EXCERPTED
The Third Secret Of Fatima Revealed?...01/25/00
by Mitch Battros (ECTV)

Fatima´s Third Secret appears to involve a supernatural event as
inadvertently disclosed by one of the few people alive who have read it
- Archbishop Loris Capovilla. Moreover, the Pope has told his close
associates not to plan his 2001 calendar implying that he won´t be alive
by then.

It is possible that he believes Fatima´s Third Secret will come to
conclusion during the Great Jubilee celebration in the Catholic Church.
Year 2000

A star, the Asteroid , will illuminate the earth causing it to appear to
be surrounded by flames during a period of some twenty minutes, an event
which will spread panic everywhere...This will occur in the near future.
When the Asteroid lights up the earth making it appear that the whole
world is in flames, many people will wish to die at that shower of
fire...a fear which will in fact cause the death of many people; those
who are just and who believe will not suffer."

In all prophecies, Jesus says that Divine events will be explainable
scientifically for the spiritually weak. So even though God may act
through nature, many will attribute these events to "nature" alone.
According to NASA the Sun has been entering a very unusual cycle in
which it is expected to have unusually large solar storms. Around April
2000 will be a "solar maximum or peak" period of flare activity.

The Garabandal visionaries referenced a bright light in relation to the
Warning, and Jacinta (of Fatima) supposedly told a Mother Godhino that a
time would come when a warning would be sent to the whole world in which
the skies would light up with a bright light shocking the world with its
suddenness and magnitude.

Before the "Miracle" will come the "Warning" (the original Spanish term
was "Aviso", which translates as "Announcement", "Warning", or
"Notification". It will precede (by between 8 days and 1 year) the
Miracle prophesied by Our Lady at Garabandal, which will in turn precede
the chastisement.

A flash of brilliant white light (obviously bright enough to attract the
attention of the third of the people in the world who will presumably be
sleeping) will occur, "like 2 stars that collide and make a lot of
light, but don´t fall down." (Conchita´s description).

Pope John Paul II interview from November 1980 carried in German Magazine "Stimme des Glaubens" - UNCONFIRMED
QUESTION: "Holy Father, what has become of the 3rd Secret of Fatima? According to Our Lady´s instructions, wasn´t it supposed to be revealed in 1960? And what will happen in the Church?"

JOHN PAUL II: "Because of the seriousness of its contents, in order not to encourage the world wide power of Communism to carry out certain coups, my Predecessors in the Chair of Peter have diplomatically preferred to withhold its publication. On the other hand, it should be sufficient for all Christians to know this much: if there is a message in which it is said that the oceans will flood entire sections of the Earth; that, from one moment to the other, millions of people will perish...there is no longer any point in really wanting to publish this secret message. Many want to know merely out of curiosity, or because of their taste for sensationalism, but they forget that ´to know´ implies for them a responsibility. It is dangerous to want to satisfy one´s curiosity only, if one is convinced that we can do nothing against a catastrophy that has been predicted... Here is the remedy against evil! Pray, pray and ask for nothing else. Put everything in the hands of the Mother of God!... We must be prepared to undergo great trials in the not-to-distant future; trials that will require us to be ready to give up even our lives, and a total gift of self to Christ and for Christ. Through your prayers and mine , it is possible to alleviate this tribulation, but it is no longer possible to avert it, because it is only in this way that the Church can be effectively renewed. How many times, indeed, has the renewal of the Church been effected in blood? This time, again, it will not be otherwise. We must be strong, we must prepare ourselves, we must entrust ourselves to Christ and to His Holy Mother, and we must be attentive, very attentive, to the prayer of the Rosary."

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/bbs/message.php?page=3&topic=3&message=80333&mpage=1&showdate=2/13/05

[bin.dare]

43. third secret of Fatima is ...

..."How I warned and warned that satan would enter into the highest realms of the hierarchy in Rome. The Third Secret, My child, is that satan would enter into My Son's Church." - Our Lady of the Roses, May 13, 1978.

some take this as referring to circumstances surrounding the murder of John Paul I.

see:
The Mysterious Death of Pope John Paul I
by Gregory Christiano
http://www.prose-n-poetry.com/display_work/10583/

and
"My God - they killed him!"
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/02/my-god-they-killed-him.html

[loudsue]

51. Now THAT I believe: If you look at what's happening in the Church

these days, there has certainly been an infiltration of ...... SOMETHING pretty darned evil.

:kick::kick::kick:

[bperci108]

22. "Pray for the conversion of Russia"

...Always struck me as ridiculous since Russia had been Christian since 988, (therefore it had been "converted" for almost a thousand years when this "vision" occurred).

('course I might be biased since I'm Orthodox. Roman Catholic "sheep stealing" is well known to the Orthodox world and I get Protestant Fundies and Evangelicals making attempts to "convert" me from time to time.)

[Paula Sims]

50. Not to be picky but. . .

. . .it was Ukraine that accepted Christianity in 988 (St. Volodymyr the Great, Russia didn't really take root until the 12th century and the founding of Moscow).

Back on topic. I too am a bit disturbed about a tinge of anti-faith I feel sometimes here on the DU. I happen to be a Byzantine Rite Catholic as well as a mathematician and have no problem coexisting in both worlds. In fact, being in one strengthens the other. BUT THAT IS FOR ME!! Just think of our pro-choice stance. We as Democrats/progressives do not feel that I woman NEEDS or MUST get an abortion -- we feel it is a choice between her, her body, and her conscience. The consequences are hers. If asked, I don't think any of us would prefer abortion as a first option or as an only option. So why is it that anything faith based should be discarded? It's a choice -- isn't it? I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone so I take umbrage with those who I feel belittle me for having and acting out on that faith.

Someone asked what good did the Fatima apparitions do. Well, there are some that did turn to the church and in doing so counseled children, ran hospitals, catered to the sick and infirmed, and generally helped others. Someone also noted that Mother Teresa questioned her own faith. Yes, we ALL do, no matter HOW much we believe. That is the sign of a thinking and feeling human. We believe in what we do because it's right for us and we choose that route, not because someone told us and that's the end of the story. Everyone that I know in the science fields questions, asks, doubts, and then comes to some resolution. Why should faith be any different?

Have there been abuses by established churches? Yes, but it's not limited to the Catholic Church. Look at other faiths as well as schools and anywhere there is a hierarchy. It's not necessarily the institution, it's the person. The institution that covers up such acts is just as guilty as the perpetrator (sometimes more), but that doesn't mean that the entire establishment and all those who follow it should be condemned.

In closing, I'd like to repeat and often quoted phrase: "For those who believe, no amount of proof is necessary. For those who do not, no amount of proof is enough."

Paula Sims

[VegasWolf]

30. Jeez, a bunch of us Catholic School survivors here! They can't keep

down the inquiring ones!!

[donco6]

18. Third Secret Right Here:

All religion is bogus.

Bet THAT would make the pope turn white!

[guajira]

20. The Worst Imaginable -- Four Moron Years!!

Before 2000, I was concerned that if B* ever became president he would start a world war. Now I'm more concerned than ever!

[heidiho]

21. I visisted Fatima last year on october 13th, the day

of the anniversary. It was a wonderful experience. There were tens of thousands of people there on a clear beautiful day and it was as moving a sight as I have ever seen.

I am still not sure what they saw in those little hills but there are sure alot of people who believe and crawled there on their knees.

[IndianaGreen]

38. And the endorphines in their brains gave them a "religious" experience

That's all a religious experience is, a chemical release of endorphines inside the brain.

[hedgehog]

24. Whatever happened at Fatima, I'm convinced that the message

was hi-jacked by Fascists. It's always bothered me that shrines such as Lourdes and Knock are so comforting while Fatima aficionados work on trying to scare the hell out of you. The thought of Mary making threats just doesn't match up with 2000 years of experience.

[KittyWampus]

36. Was The Disaster Of 3rd Prophecy 9/11? It Enabled Bush-The Antichrist

in 2001

[IndianaGreen]

41. Here is the official Vatican text of the 3rd secret of Fatima

for whatever is worth. Please notice that Pope John Paul II's spin that the 3rd secret was about the attempted assassination on his life does not jive with the actual text. For those that believe in such a thing as prophecies, one would be left with the impression that the prophecy is yet to be fulfill.

Here is the official Vatican text of the third secret of Fatima (they have photocopies posted as well):

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

The third part of the secret revealed at the Cova da Iria-Fatima, on 13 July 1917.

I write in obedience to you, my God, who command me to do so through his Excellency the Bishop of Leiria and through your Most Holy Mother and mine.

After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.

Tuy-3-1-1944”.

[mitchum]

42. How can anyone believe any of this crazyass bullshit?

Pathetic and baffling

[VegasWolf]

46. Don't know, maybe a loose hold on reality? n/t

[Moderator]

57. locking

This news item has outlived it's usefulness.