Shooting in Mall in New York

[GoCubsGo05]

Allegedly, two gunmen entered the Hudson Valley MAll in Kingston, NY and opened fire with "machine guns," earlier this afternoon. Reports say surgeons are on the scene attending to between 2 and 10 injured people. One shooter in custody, the other on the loose.

[Califooyah Operative]

1. FoxNews: At Least Two Gunmen Open Fire in N.Y. Mall - front page alert.nt

[GoCubsGo05]

2. Mall is on lockdown...

3 gunmen now...one in custody...one on the loose.

[Toucano]

22. That doesn't add up.

Oh, well. I'll check for an update.

[GoCubsGo05]

23. Pardon...menat 2 on the loose...still conflicting reports...n/t

[Toucano]

25. Thanks.

Wasn't sure where to put the third one. ;)

[GoCubsGo05]

5. Can't believe CNN or MSNBC isn't on this too n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. It's a gun rights story

Don't you know that if those customers were strapped then they could have shot back and killed the gunmen (and maybe some innocent bystanders too).

[shawcomm]

9. The fox airheads are just hoping

it's terra or roving gangs of minorities.

Sick fuckers.

[TomClash]

30. Fox immediately said the guy in custody was Black

[GoCubsGo05]

3. "Machine Gun"...may now be handgun....n/t

[Dr Ron]

4. Why do you hate America and why do you want to take away our guns?

Just preparing for the Conservative backlash. It'll be interesting to see their take on this.

[GoCubsGo05]

6. Well, how about in the meantime we just pray (or hope)...

....that there isn't a hostage situation or too many killed.

[Free2BMe]

83. Thank you for that thought...It was a very scary afternoon.

[Toucano]

24. Their take?

"If the shoppers had been armed, this wouldn't have happened."

Acts of violence like this are always used to SUPPORT their "world is gone to hell, gotta protect me and mine" argument.

[Dr Ron]

27. Yes, the world would be such a peaceful place...

if only everyone carried a gun. (obviously scarcasm directed towards the right)

[Toucano]

36. Just like the old west.

There was never any crime there, now was there?

It's a sick, twisted fantasy.

[Massacure]

90. Hollywood makes the west seem wilder than it was.

[SheepBootHero]

69. The right? Ever been to Vermont?

Nearly every real Vermonter is armed and carrying. There is very little open crime other than a few burglars and other thefts which are rarely if ever directed at unknown victims.

Most moronic muggers that try to mug a Vermonter either gets what he has coming for his attack on the innocent or is held at gunpoint until the police arrive.

The right to self defense and honoring the 2nd amendment is not a "right" wing attribute. Any remaining Democrats that promote disarming law abiding citizens would do well to either leave the party or learn that the problem is not with the weapons but with the sick people breaking the law and murdering people.

If these sick people did not have a gun they would use an SUV or a Prius to mow people down.

[Toucano]

70. Great example.

Vermont has such a huge population, it's a good barometer for the whole country. What's the population density like there again?

BTW, I haven't heard anyone "promote disarming law abiding citizens".

I've heard people say quite convincingly that assault weapons should not be available to anyone, though.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

71. Bullshit! Vermonters "armed and carrying?" Pure bullshit.

I don't know what part of Vermont you're from, but I'm from the Northeast Kingddom. Don't live there anymore, but I spend a lot of time up there, and when I'm there I don't just stay in a vacation cabin...I'm very involved in community projects in several towns.

I interact with real Vermonters all the time. Hundreds of them. And I have never known even one of them to be "armed and carrying."

Yeah, pretty much all of them hunt, but they don't even go around with rifles in the back window of the pickup like out West. Much less packing pistols.

Are you hallucinating, or are all those people I know in the small towns in the Northeast Kingdom, whose families have been there for generations, not "real Vermonters?"

Redstone

[old freak]

97. Who's talking bullshit?

People who choose to arm themselfs don't advertise the fact that they are packing.

[Redstone]

101. No, but when you know them well

and you get to talking, you find out. Or you see the damn thing.

The contention that crime is low in Vermont because Vermonters are all pistol-packin' straight-shootin' steely-eyed defenders of hearth, home, and the law, is pure bullshit fantasy.

Redstone

[DoNotRefill]

118. I've been carrying every day since the 1980's...

and on precisely three occasions have people "seen" my gun when I didn't intend them to. I eventually got rid of the holster in question because it wasn't keeping the firearm secure.

I'm not in Vermont, of course, but people who aren't "buddy-buddy" with me have no clue that I carry every day.

Concealed carry is just that....concealed.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

134. Some in Virginia do...

"The erroneous arrest of two college students who were legally carrying guns in holsters in Fairfax County has galvanized Virginia's pro-gun lobby and gun-control activists.

The Virginia Citizens Defense League, a pro-gun group, said it has drawn more than $600 in unsolicited donations, including $5 from a Marine lieutenant serving in Iraq, in response to the June 14 arrest.

"The incident at Starbucks sent off fireworks everywhere," said Philip Van Cleave, president of Virginia Citizens Defense League. "That changed everything. The police went way over the edge, and that woke up a whole lot of people."

Meanwhile, Virginians for Public Safety, a gun-control group, said it has mobilized volunteers in response to the same incident."

more...

http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20040802-104659-4396r.htm

Nasty little rumor is that the pro-gun groups are sending them out "packing," just to taunt.

[DoNotRefill]

139. The cop is lucky that he still has a job....

and that the county isn't being sued.

[Redstone]

86. "They would use an SUV to mow people down"

What an extraordinarily stupid argument.

Broken logic, pal. You see, assault rifles are specifically designed and manufactured to kill as many people as possible, as quickly as possible.

SUVs and Toyota Priuses are not designed and manufactured for that purpose.

Redstone

[pacalo]

120. "Any *remaining* Democrats"? Look around you, fella.

There is NO reason why a person needs to own an assault weapon. They're not used for hunting, they're used to kill human beings.

[Redstone]

124. nightmare, don't bother trying to reason with this clown

You won't get anywhere with a guy who claims 1) that Vermont is like Dodge city, with everyone packin' and ready (which is not true), and 2) that a Toyota Prius is as dangerous a weapon as an assault rifle (which assertion I won't even dignify with a comment).

Anyway, if you read the threads, you'll find out that the Gun Nuts don't NEED any reason why they should be able to have assault rifles; the mere fact that they WANT them is reason enough (their words, not mine).

Redstone

[DoNotRefill]

126. Want to GUARANTEE that the 8 year nightmare lasts longer?

keep pushing for more gun control nationally.


How many times do we need to get kicked in the teeth over this one issue?

And since when has NEED ever been a test in the exercising of a constitutionally protected RIGHT?

[Redstone]

127. Oh, I see...

Your contentions is: the fact that you have guns is what's going to keep people like Bush from being in power for more than the next couple of years. And don't quibble; that's exactly what your post says.

Notwithstanding, of course, that your having guns didn't prevent the lunatics from being put in power in the first place. But according to you, it'll keep them from continuing to be in power.

OK.

I give up. I'm never getting into this kind of discussion again.

You gun people are hopeless.

Redstone

PS: Ever been shot? It only took the one time for me (by an AK-47) to convince me that there's nothing particularly cool about firearms.

[DoNotRefill]

136. Yeah, I've been shot....

on three separate occasions. That's actually "shot", not "shot at". In each and EVERY case that I got shot, the person who shot me was prohibited by federal statute from possessing even a single round of ammunition, much less a gun. Unsurprisingly, criminals don't seem to obey the law. Go figure.

My point was one of simple math, which obviously COMPLETELY blew by you. There are between 80-100 MILLION gun owners in the US. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM is eligible to vote. Barely 100 million people voted in 2004, and the turnout was VERY high. Kerry lost the election on the day that this photo was taken:



In case you don't recall it, this was the day he flew into the Senate to vote for the AW ban renewal. Clinton said in 1995 that the AW ban cost Democrats seats. Gore was unable to take his HOME STATE in 2000 because of his anti-gun position, which is how we got 43 in the first place, since if Gore had taken Tenn, Florida wouldn't have mattered.

If you piss off 100 million voters on one issue, and around 100 million voters vote in the Presidential election TOTAL, it's kind of hard to win.

Pushing gun control is the BEST way I know to keep the Democratic Party in the minority forever. Sarah Brady is running the most EFFECTIVE false-flag organizations that I've ever heard of, and DEMOCRATS are the butt of the joke.

[pacalo]

130. Seriously, I'd like to know

why people would want to own an assault weapon? Does it make the owner feel more manly? Does it serve as compensation for what's lacking in the owner's self image? Why is it a life or death issue to the owners that assault weapons are kept available on the market for anyone to buy?

If you want to talk about constitutionally-protected rights, I think banning assault weapons should be a higher priority than banning life-saving abortions, banning euthanasia, or banning same-sex unions.

[diatribal]

133. I dont like what guns do to people.

It makes them think they are more powerful, and then they will abuse that power. This is a clear case of that happening.

No normal, healthy person is going to buy a machine gun. They have to be a little bit broken inside to even want one, and then stuff like this is the result.

[DoNotRefill]

138. Ignorance is not a virtue.

I'm a normal, healthy person, and I own a shitload of machineguns, all legally.

They appreciate at around 30% a year, and are far more reliable investments than the stock market. I own guns that most likely cost today more than your house is appraised at. I know some of them are worth more today than what my house is appraised at. A single gun, which I spent under $1,000 for in 1995, will COMPLETELY pay for my daughter's 4 year college education when that time comes.

BTW, since they started keeping track of machineguns in 1934, exactly TWO legally possessed machineguns have been used in a crime. That's NATION-WIDE.

[MyMouth]

161. Hot damn!

You should get in the financial planning business. I can see the storefront now; "DNR's Belt-fed Financial Advisory, Inc".

;-)

[DoNotRefill]

162. Heh. You laugh....

but it's true. Registered HK sears, which were selling for $80 in 1986, now routinely claim more than $10K. I recently sold a gun I bought in 1997 for $375 for $2500.

If you know what you're doing, you can make some kick-ass investments in the NFA market. There's a fixed, finite supply, and demand keeps growing.

[DoNotRefill]

137. I oppose banning all of the things you list...

but of all those rights, only the Second is so clearly spelled out. It's a right, not a privilege. It belongs to the people, not to the State. It's about arms, not "those arms which some people don't feel threatened by" or "those arms which are not terribly popular right now". And it shall not be infringed, not even a little bit.

We're SUPPOSED to be the party of civil liberties. I really HATE it when people in our party say "We don't need this right or that right, regardless of what the Constitution says." When they say things like that, they remind me of the Freepers, pushing to restrict our rights.

[pacalo]

150. Point taken.

I just don't see the need for assault weapons being made available for anyone to purchase. They're made only for the purpose of killing human beings.

[DoNotRefill]

152. I'm in the South....

where "he needed killing" may still be a valid legal defense depending on circumstances.

If you're worried about people illegally killing others, well, so-called "assault weapons" are very rarely used in crime, generally because they're big and bulky and much harder to carry than, say, a handgun, which is the "weapon of choice" for criminals. How many shootings can you think of that involved more than six people being shot? You can shoot six people with a standard revolver without reloading.

If you're worried about people legally killing people, why worry? If it's legally justified, they were badly misbehaving in the first place. And some people do indeed DESERVE to die.

[sandnsea]

151. Ever been to Louisiana?

They have the same attitude as you do and the highest murder rate in the country. Everybody having guns IS NOT what makes a peaceful society. Mutual repect and cooperation does. You get that in the rural north because you're afraid you'd freeze to death in the dead of winter if you didn't make friends and cooperate with your neighbors.

[Spinzonner]

28. Yeah, nothing like a little crossfire

to increase the body count

[skippythwndrdog]

40. My take:

Armed citizens could have played a positive role. Maybe they did, we don't know enough yet. Probably not, as it is nearly impossible to get a concealed carry license in NY. Frankly, I do have to protect myself and my family. The police are not going to do it. When Dimebag was murdered, two Concealed Handgun Licensees stood just a few feet away, unable to do anything about it because the state had decreed that they couldn't carry into Alrosa Villa, even if they were not drinking.

[davepc]

47. no, gun makes society violent

only the police can be trusted with them.

[skippythwndrdog]

58. Inanimate objects/tools MAKE violence?

How bizarre a take on reality. Guns cause crime like laxatives make Ann Coulter bulemic or spoons make Rosie O'Donnel fat.

[greendeerslayer]

63. all I can say is...

you trust the cops a helluva lot more than I do.

[old freak]

98. The police can be trustred to protect me?

It's not their (the police)responsibility to protect the individual, but society as a whole. It's my responsibility to protect me.

[DoNotRefill]

119. tell that to Louima....

eom

[WorseBeforeBetter]

131. Canadians have plenty of guns...

and they aren't mowing each other down.

[420inTN]

163. How often do cops show up to prevent a crime?

How often do they show up after the crime has been committed to clean up/ do the paperwork?

[GoCubsGo05]

48. DETAILS:

There was only ONE shooter, male, 24 with an "assault-type" rifle. 2 people injured, not a cop or military recruiter. One was shot in the leg. The other may have been injured by flying glass. No further substanative details are being released right now.

Just goes to show you how crappy initial reports and eyewitness reports can be!

[Historic NY]

92. It will be in my morning paper...I live nearby...........

your details are what were finally reveal as the facts, the suspects name was not released. It happened at Best Buy.

[phylny]

74. I don't know about armed citizens playing a positive role...

you may be right.

People are people. I'm just wondering if the armed citizens in Iraq are helping things out. I'm not sure of policy - is the US willing to allow Iraqis to buy guns at will as they can here in the US? If not, why not? Armed citizens can play a positive role throughout the world.

[hlthe2b]

52. Really... I should be able to pack and carry my AK47--just in case

:eyes:

[Township75]

59. I am sure everyone there was thinking during the shooting..

thank God no one else has a gun, it would only make things worse. The fact that only that madman is armed makes the situation a lot better.

:eyes:

[Toucano]

62. Yeah. It would have been better if more madmen were armed.

I think your typical suburban mall rat would be highly effective in this situation if only they had MORE GUNS.

The solution clearly has to be MORE pistol packing mamas and papas. More money for cops on the street, that's just pissing in the wind. Banning assault weapons and closing the gun show loop holes is much harder than arming and training the general public to be mini-TERMINATORS.

For the record, I don't think we know that no one else had guns. But that's not really the point.

[davepc]

64. I agree!

the statistics clearly show that where law abiding citizens have access to guns, and are even allowed to *gasp* carry them in *shock* public blood literaly runs through the streets.

People cant be trusted with guns, only the police can.

[Township75]

72. So ever civilian with a gun is a madmen?

Nice.

So what's a suburban mall rat?

And as far as more money for cops on the street, well...what good would more cops on the street have done IN THE MALL (which is private).

When the facts come out about what type of gun it was, then we will know if it were an assualt weapon or not. If he got the weapon through a gun show loophole or not...but I know this much, NY has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation. You have to get a permit just to touch a gun in a gun store, and you can only get the permit after living in NY 5 years. I believe NY already has a state law which closes the gun show loophole, so all of what you suggested is likely already in place...and look what good it did.

[Redstone]

85. Toucan, we probably should give up arguing with them...

Logic and rationality have no place in this discussion (though I enjoy your commentary, which is certainly pithy and to the point).

The hardcore Gun Nuts I've known are even more consumingly fixated than any Fundamentalist Holy Roller Christian I've ever encountered.

It really is kind of like an all-consuming religion to them.

Maybe it's just me, but it only took getting shot (by an AK-47) just the one time, to make me decide that firearms in general were maybe not so cool.

Hang in there.

Redstone

[Krinkov]

94. and if everyone just surrendered

..and gave rampage killers what they wanted they'd be spared, right? Thats probably your strategy for dealing with muggers, home invasions and rapists too, right? "You'll just make it harder on yourself if you try and fight back, just give it up and lay still and comply."

Oh,that will work real well on random spree killers.

Forgive me if i choose to have a chance to protect myself and those around me. The ass i save might be yours.

[Toucano]

100. I'm gonna bet I've faced more armed robberies than you have.

Just because I know I have and odds are you haven't.

I'm very THANKFUL I complied and didn't give the thug "reason" to kill me.

Not that any of that is relevent to this discussion because there wasn't a choice here between compliance and resistance.

[girl gone mad]

65. Their take will be..

that we should just let everyone take their guns with them wherever they go, just like in the wild west, because it worked out real well back then.

[Conservativesux]

67. Why? It'll be the same line as always: "More guns means less crime".

[GoCubsGo05]

7. One person has been Medivaced out n/t

[Skink]

10. Probably just finished Richard Clarke's piece in The Atlantic..

where in 2011 he looks back on the events that led to the Security state we inherit over the course of a decade.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GoCubsGo05]

11. His comrades may have taken hostages. n/t

[Stanchetalarooni]

12. Thugs, thugs, thugs,

On both sides of the badge, yes?

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rose Siding]

15. Only if you disregard the rule of law

-those would be the exact SAME laws that protect us.

[karlrschneider]

18. I worked my way through college in the mid 1960s as a cop and saw some

horrible things. Most of them were pretty decent, but there were quite a few sadistic bastards who would brag about "thumping" someone from time to time. (This was in Tulsa)...

[intheflow]

21. That's the spirit that got us into the Abu Ghraib mess.

Hard to respect the police if they're beating people, and then it becomes a vicious cycle, with respect lost and lost again on both sides, in perpetuity. I want them to catch the other gunman, yes, but I don't think police beatings should be condoned in a civil society.

[Rose Siding]

14. Yes.

[Blue Gardener]

16. Those poor people in the mall

They must have been terrified. I can't imagine trying to find a place to hide where they couldn't hunt me down.

[yorkiemommie1]

26. i was in a mall once when...

all of a sudden sheriffs came in w/ shotguns. my legs would not work. couldn't even get up a flight of three stairs. we were all hustled outside and thankfully for my reflex-deficient self it was a false alarm.

edited title

[GoCubsGo05]

17. 1 Person shot allegedly a police officer...

[GoCubsGo05]

32. or possibly a military recruiter...n/t

[oasis]

19. St. Valentine's Day Massacre. That's probably what the shitheads were

thinking. "Let's get 'em while their shopping for Valentine's Day". More "Die"land Klebold type mindless shit no doubt.

[Festivito]

20. Lots of new people today. Welcome. Google has some links.

Google
Hudson Valley Mall

http://www.capitalnews9.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=117446
at least TWO, mayor says one person helicoptered to hospital

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-02-13-mall-gunmen_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA
One in police custody
Police and helicopters surround mall
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/10892390.htm?1c

NPR reported it at top of hour.

[GoCubsGo05]

29. Janet Decker on CNN was inside the center of the mall...

and heard machine gun type sounds. The shooter allegedly started at Best Buy then went to another store on the other side of the mall.
Says there was a gang related fight last night.

[havocmom]

41. Gang related violence always goes up during Republican administrations

Remember the gang wars/drive-bys of the 80s? They slowed considerably during the Clinton years of better economy and hope for the young people. Now look at what is going on again around the nation!

Do ya feel safer, America?

[The Straight Story]

56. So people are not responsible for their actions?

I have been dirt poor in my life, on welfare at one point, and did not go around killing people.

Sometimes, people just do the wrong thing - it does not matter who is sitting in the white house at the time. People are not robots, they make choices - and choosing to shoot people at a mall has nothing to do with bushy boy.

If you really believe that people are that weak, then perhaps we are in a sadder state than I previously thought...

[havocmom]

61. Where did I say that? Not me. I stated fact. The crime rate, during

modern times, has increased under GOP years. I think people need to take responsibility for their actions AND I think the society has to take responsibility for messages sent to individuals. The message during GOP regimes seems to be survival of the meanest. That is a societal value and the young people pick up on it.

When the economy is better, there is hope in poorer neighborhoods. it is easier for the parents and community to show the young there is a future and that communal, civic considerations and activities have benefits.

I grew up dirt poor and very responsible too. Grew up to value both personal AND cultural responsibility. The GOP of the past 30 years does not illustrate that value. Young people are not dumb. They see where the money goes and when only money has value, many will do whatever to get it.

And an economy which offers no hope to so many will also breed great anger. Why should they feel concern for a system that demonstrates no concern for them? It was the same with various ethnic groups when they came in waves to this country. They were poor, treated poorly, put into marginal ghettos and crime organizations resulted from the desperation, need to find power and lack of any vested interest in the current system.

If the system of a time (in this time, the neocon version of the GOP) does not value and respect the dignity of a group, that group will have a portion of its numbers turn against the system. The young and the poor are not valued and do not have their dignity respected by the greedy neocons. The elderly are gonna start to realize they are being run over too. Look for a resurgence of Gray Panthers real soon! Look at the increased reports of bank robberies in most local papers. Look for more and more signs of society crumbling as the leaders disregard the needs of the people.

[The Straight Story]

66. Sorry - did not mean to imply you per se (and reminded of...)

Perhaps the Amish. It does not matter who is in office, they still carry on day to day with their values - which start at home (and yes, they are far from perfect).

I do see and understand your point all too well. White collar crime seems to flow unchecked while shop lifting to feed your kids gets prosecuted with a passion.

Personally I just don't feel comfortable blaming bush or anyone else in government for my actions (I have plenty of blame to lay on them for other things though). That is not to say that they are blind to causes of crime and are not working to eleminate those causes (based on the idea that poor people will steal and kill more than other than other people, which boils down to a minority issue on one hand and all poor on the other).

IF the core causes of crime are government mainly and people secondly then perhaps we should jail our people in power first (or give a free pass to those who choose to engage in crime and simply allow them to do so). I think however that the causes sometimes (and in some cases) go deeper. Plenty of people are poor and don't turn to crime (of course, the more laws we make the more criminals we have - like in columbus now we have a smoking ban and plenty of people still smoke in bars and are now criminals - which means we need more of your tax dollars to round them up, so a tax increase is in order)....

[PROGRESSIVE1]

128. Republicans love to see minorities killed!

It further's their plans for a WHITE ONLY SOCIETY!!!

:argh:

Rethugs are SOBS!!!

[GoCubsGo05]

31. Eyewitness says one shotter down was a white guy...n/t

[GoCubsGo05]

37. Eyewitness just said it was a "red-neck" looking guy. Heh. n/t

[LinuxInsurgent]

38. domestic McVeigh-like terrorists?

now wouldn't that be an ironic twist?

Spending billions of dollars and lives in the Middle East...when we got our own, homegrown versions over here...

What was it that Chris Rock said, "I ain't scared of Al-Qaeda...I'm scared of Al-CRACKER".

Hehehe..

[intheflow]

43. Doesn't surprise me in the least.

I spent a lot of time in that part of NY. Lots of hippie types. Many more rednecks with confederate flags and gun racks on their trucks.

[Retired AF Dem]

51. Hippies and rednecks coexisting with one another?

whats next?

[intheflow]

53. Dogs dating cats!

Seriously, you can't blame both demographics for living there. It's a beautiful part of the country.

[d.l.Green]

60. Not only is it a beautiful place to live, we've got Congressman Hinchey!

Who both the hippies and the rednecks vote for in droves. A "far left liberal" if there ever was one, with a great head on his shoulders and a respect for the environment that's unequaled. Yet in such a Republican-rich area, Maurice always wins with a landslide. The local Republicans in my city actually endorsed him at the risk of being cut off from their county committee's support! :grouphug:

[Freebird12004]

80. they do in Woodstock

:pals:

[NNN0LHI]

33. MSNBC: Women interviewed who was at the scene indicated gang activity n/t

Don't know how true this report is.

Don

[Mr.Green93]

34. Now

can we have the AWB?

[GoCubsGo05]

35. Something tells me....

the shooters had the weapons before the AWB expired. May even just be a handgun. Not a lot of specific details on the weapons yet.

[bbernardini]

39. What could the Average White Band have done?

<duck>

[intheflow]

44. Hey!

You stole my joke! LOL!

Not that I would have had the heart to post it. Hard to even post "LOL" in a thread as serious as this. :cry: Still, I thought it, so I guess that makes us partners in puns.

[Bluebear]

46. Pick up the pieces?

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

73. "blame the criminal and not the weapon?"

Yeah, right. If he didn't have "the weapon," he'd have done less damage.

Want to tell me exactly what the fuck the reason is that it's so important for "law-abiding citizens" to be able to have assault rifles?

Gonna take an AK-47 deer hunting?

Buddy, if you need a semi-auto rifle with a 30-round magazine to bring down a deer, you really need to spend some serious time practicing at the shooting range. Or an eye exam.

A lever-action 30-30 was always enough for me.

I dare you: Give me one good, solid logical, rational reason why people in this country need to be able to have assault rifles, and I'll shut up.

Redstone

[SheepBootHero]

75. I don't deer hunt with an AK,AR15, SKAS Mini-14 or other weapons

I use bow only. What I do with the semi-auto weapons is target shoot and have a good time with friends at the range or in the back 40.

As far as a rational reason that would satisfy you I won't even try to explain how different people have different ideas of pleasure shooting.

For that matter you don't need anything more than food, water, shelter and health care to make it through life. Everything else is a luxury and many of these luxuries harm those that have less than you.

You car or public bus can kill more people with a madman behind the wheel in the right place at the right time than any semi auto weapon even with a 60 round magazine.

[Redstone]

79. OK, so do you NEED to have the assault rifle?

There are lots of folks who would be just as happy to spend some time plinking away "in the back 40" with a shoulder-fired rocket, an anti-tank gun, a 105 howitzer, or a Claymore AP mine.

Should they be allowed to have these, just because they LIKE them?

I asked for a good reason, not just because you like having them.

PS: I'm even more dubious that you know anything about "real Vermonters" as you claimed to in your previous post (see my post #71)...I am a native Vermonter, and never heard the expression "the back 40" up there. That's a Midwestern expression. Vermont farms were never laid out in quarter-sections.

Redstone

[DoNotRefill]

123. these are all legal in most of the country....

"with a shoulder-fired rocket, an anti-tank gun, a 105 howitzer, or a Claymore AP mine."

They are classified as NFA weapons, and may indeed be legally owned in a majority of states provided that the paperwork is done correctly. Oddly enough, they're NEVER used in crime...prolly because it's pretty easy to identify where the 105mm Howitzer shell came from, since they're not concealable and are pretty rare.

[-..__...]

81. Jim...!

"I'm a doctor, not a lobbyist for the Brady Campaign". "This issue is dead".

State a rational reason why I (or anyone else), shouldn't be allowed to own an "assault rifle"?

Clue behind door #1... hunting has nothing to do with it.

You keep your lever-action 30-30; I'll continue to keep my semi-auto AR-15's, SKS's and AK-47's and will continue to oppose any legislation that would restrict ownership by myself or any other "law abiding" citizen.

[Redstone]

84. See #89.

Should the folks who want to be able to have LAAW rockets be able to, just because they want to?

Redstone

[-..__...]

107. Actually...

under Federal law a person can legally own a "LAAW" rocket (although finding one for sale could be a bit of a problem).

But, I digress... other than a handful of militia or survivalist types,
there's no clamoring by RKBA supporters for unrestricted sales or possession of "LAAW" rockets (or new-cleah weapons for that matter).

So, at least on that matter you can sleep easier at night.

BTW... it's LAW (Light Anti-Tank Weapon), not "LAAW".

[Redstone]

129. You weren't around when people actually used these, were you?

It's "Light Anti-Armor Weapon."

Hence the second A.

I know because I actually used the fucking things in 1972, in a little town called An Loc.

You?

Not that I'm proud of that, or that it's easy for me to mention this little historical tidbit.

I'm just really, really tired of the glorification of weapons from you Gun Nuts.

Redstone

[-..__...]

135. Technical difficulties?

72? Viet Nam? Did you use an M-72 LAW or "LAAW"?

Judging from your post and my response, it's probably fair to assume that both of us were long retired from military duty when the AT4 was put into service.

We can snipe at each other over technical nuances or terminology all you want, but the fact remains that (law abiding), civilians can (and should), be able to own "assault weapons" and anything remotely related (including crew served full-auto weapons).

LAWS, LAAWS, WMD's, nukes, bio, chem ... whatever, is just an anti-gun strawman smokescreen to scare the sheeple with.

"You weren't around when people actually used these, were you?"

Actually, I was. Yeah, you're a bit older than me, but probably not by very much... 82nd Airborne; 1974-1978.

Fort Polk, LA... trained on the M-72 LAW and 90mm and 106mm Recoilless Rifle (otherwise known as a bazooka to the movie goers).

"I'm just really, really tired of the glorification of weapons from you Gun Nuts."

Maybe I'm just a "gun nut". Maybe I have an issue with "control freaks" of any sort. Read it and weep all you want.. I'll continue to oppose and work against anything that even reeks of gun control legislation.

"I'm just really, really tired of the glorification of weapons from you Gun Nuts."

This coming from someone with a username named after a nuclear missle... go figure. :eyes:

FWIW, I respect your service and your right to your opinion. I just happen to think you have little or no knowledge of RKBA related issues that hasn't been spoon-fed to you by the Brady type crowd.

[Redstone]

156. No, not technical difficulties.

Was at the doctor; have to go to the hospital for a few days so this will need to be short.

72? Viet Nam? Did you use an M-72 LAW or "LAAW"?

Yes. Also M-16 and M-79. Was attached to the ARVN 9th div; we got there on April 15th; was wounded and left May 16th.

This coming from someone with a username named after a nuclear missle... go figure. :eyes:

Happens that it's my name. Doesn't have anything to do with missiles.

I have to go now.

Redstone

[pacalo]

117. (Oops -- posted in wrong place)

[old freak]

102. What's an assault rifle anyway?

"I dare you: Give me one good, solid logical, rational reason why people in this country need to be able to have assault rifles, and I'll shut up."

Because I can. Only 20% of gun owners hunt. Ownership is not about hunting.

[DistantWind88]

103. Plus, was this an assault rifle

or just a semi-automatic rifle?

[squeamish]

104. Assault Weapons Definition

All "assault weapons" are semi-automatic. If it's fully automatic (like an AK-47) it's not an "assault weapon" it's a "machine gun" and covered under a completely different (and much more stringent) Federal regulation. The term "assault weapon" really only refers (I guess I should say "referred" since it's not a law anymore) to regular semi-automatic weapons with either large (over 10 shots) magazines and/or cosmetic changes like folding stocks, grenade launcher mounts, bayonets, and pistol grips that made them look "scary."

If a fully automatic AK-47 was used in this attack it was almost certainly not a legally owned weapon.

[Redstone]

106. Same tired old argument

"We should be able to have them just because we want to. The fact that these are weapons designed specifically for killing as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, doesn't matter. You know, someone who killed people with one of these could have just used a lawnmower by picking it up and shoving it into people's faces if they hadn't had a rapid-fire rifle with a large magazine, so does this mean we should ban lawnmowers blah blah blah....or they could have used a cordless Skil saw, so should we ban them too..."

Yawn.

Redstone

[slackmaster]

109. I have to disagree with you on your core assumption

...The fact that these are weapons designed specifically for killing as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, doesn't matter....

We're talking about semiautomatic firearms that are dumbed-down versions of military weapons that were designed for combat use. The selective-fire capability was designed out of them so they would satisfy a free-market demand for firearms with the ergonomics, robustness, and other desirable characteristics of the military arms (e.g. wide availability of replacement parts, accessories, and surplus ammunition) without being subject to regulation under the National Firearms Act.

Manufacturers and importers and designers aren't thinking "Let's give our customers the ability to kill lots of people."

You know, someone who killed people with one of these could have just used a lawnmower by picking it up and shoving it into people's faces if they hadn't had a rapid-fire rifle with a large magazine...

Maybe a few people might make such a statement. I'd simply ask if you'd be happier if this assault had been committed with a shotgun or a traditional-looking hunting rifle. Frankly I don't believe the result would have been any better for the victims.

[Romulus]

110. gun spree vs knife spree: knife wins

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-02-14-japan_x.htm?csp=34

TOKYO (AP) — A man carrying a knife burst into a public elementary school in western Japan on Monday and stabbed at least three adults, police said. Kyodo News reported that one of the victims died.

*snip*

School security has been a rising concern in Japan since a man with a history of mental illness killed eight children in a slashing rampage at an elementary school in Osaka in 2001.

*****************

Last time I checked, the Mall Guy only wounded two people; nobody died.

[Redstone]

112. "Mall Guy only wounded two people; nobody died"

This time. Lots died at Columbine.

Redstone

[DoNotRefill]

125. Are you saying...

that somebody with a cordless Skil saw couldn't wound one person seriously and scraped up another person? Because that's ALL this guy did.

Hell, throw a lawnmower out of your car at speed into a crowd of pedestrians, and you'd prolly kill more people than this guy did, even if the lawnmower wasn't working...

[DoNotRefill]

122. Because it's their right.

"Name one good reason why people need to be able to burn the American flag in public."

"Name one good reason why a woman needs to be able to have an abortion."

"Name one good reason why minorities NEED to be able to vote."

Rights are NOT "need" based. Anybody who says that ANY right is need-based are not the kind of people I want to be associated with.

Somehow, I doubt you'll shut up as you promised....but hope springs eternal!!! ;)

[-..__...]

77. Nope... no way.

"can we have the AWB?"

[DoNotRefill]

121. Ummm....NO.

How much MORE of a minority party do you want us to be????

Gun control = kiss of death in a national political sense.

[Dems Will Win]

42. I live 10 miles away and go there all the time!

[Freebird12004]

78. perhaps you remember the teenagers that roamed that mall 10 years ago

Friday nights and Saturday nights the Hudson Valley Mall was full - but no one was buying anything more than ice cream cones from Friendly's or Cokes from Burger King and milling around. There was more than one fight between the teens that hung out there. But somehow - it looked better on my last shopping visit. I'm really surprised about today.

[GoCubsGo05]

45. Presser at 6:15 EST...more details will follow...n/t

[GoCubsGo05]

49. DETAILS: ONLY 1 SHOOTER

There was only ONE shooter, male, 24 with an "assault-type" rifle. 2 people injured, not a cop or military recruiter. One was shot in the leg. The other may have been injured by flying glass. No further substanative details are being released right now.

Just goes to show you how crappy initial reports and eyewitness reports can be!

[GoCubsGo05]

50. Was taken down by Best Buy Employee!)n/t

[napi21]

54. Don't ya just love how the media gets the first info WRONG!!!!

CNN has been broadcasting major shooting at NY Mall with 2 gunnmen or more, and one in custody. May have been 5 injured!

Several hours later, they finally get reports directly from the authorities there, and the only thing they had right was that there was a shooting at a NY Mall. Hell, they even had the name of the town wrong!

[GoCubsGo05]

55. Yep,looks like gunman wasn't the only one with an itchy trigger finger n/t

[slackmaster]

105. I'll bet the rifle was only assault-"style", not assault-type

Whatever the hell that means.

[-..__...]

108. Some jouranalist are slow getting t the facts right.

Give'em at least another week or two to sort it all out.

[old freak]

115. Not good enough

By then the negative impressions of an "assault weapon" would have been made, regardless if it was a bolt action .22.

[Free2BMe]

82. Granddaughter works at that mall..I have never been so glad to talk

to anyone in my life...Thankful.

[Redstone]

88. What a relief that must have been...

America is a big country, and we see things like this happening and it seem like it's so far away...except for the people intimately involved, such as yourself and your granddaughter.

I'm happy she's OK and can only imagine the relief you feel. You must have been beside yourself with worry.

Redstone

[GoddessOfGuinness]

89. I'm glad she's ok...

You must have been terrified! :hug:

[genieroze]

87. One lone gunman

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/13/mall.shooting/index.html

[Krinkov]

91. that was in MY MALL!

WOW thats my local friggin mall. I would have gone in today to pick up a printer cartridge and some dvd-rw's, but i decided to sleep in.

It would have sucked getting shot knowing i still have to wait 5-8 more months before I am able to legally carry a handgun in this state. I originally applied just so i could plink, but i am seriously considering carrying when it arrives in light of this kind of thing. I will NOT be a victim of some nutcase, only able to scream and cower. FUCK THAT.

I wonder how many shots he would have gotten off had this been in texas, or someplace where more people have and use their CCW?

I wonder if he would have even tried this to begin with.

Glad to know our NY state assault weapon ban is still in effect, so it can prevent this kind of thing from happening. Think how many more would have been hurt if he had a bayonet on there? :eyes:

anyway.. glad no deaths, though one guy might lose his leg. Anyone else here from ulster county?

[Freebird12004]

95. ~ me ~

and a friend of ours was at the mall. She said there was damage at the perfume counter inside of Filene's. I wonder what that's about.

[lebkuchen]

93. Life in the US of A

When someone else's (usually a male's) bad day has to affect your comparatively pristine day in the worst of ways.

[DistantWind88]

99. It can happen anywhere...

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,507765,00.html

[lebkuchen]

111. It happens so rarely in Germany, you still have the URL for it

How many URLS do you maintain for murders in the US? Or is your harddrive a tad too tiny?

[DistantWind88]

113. No one died yesterday,

a dozen did in that shooting in germany. I did not save the URL; merely googled "spree shooting" to find it. Violence happens everywhere.

[lebkuchen]

132. How many died in the US last year from guns?

How many in Germany?

Look, I don't live in the US, and am thankful for that. I feel thankful I can walk down any dark street in just about anywhere in Europe and feel safe. You prefer to pack a pistol. We're both happy.

Hopefully, you won't cross the path of some miserable little nobody trying to make a living on a US bankrupt economy wanting to take out his bad "day" on you while shopping in Piggly Wiggly.

It's something you have to seriously consider in the US, which is why so many states have carry/conceal laws.

In Europe, gun violence is the last thing on everyone's minds. It's a lot less stressful here as a result. Guess that's why so many Americans vacation across the pond, and eventually set down roots here, as I have.

[DoNotRefill]

140. actually, a large majority of gun deaths in the US....

are suicides. It varies annually, but tends to run between 60%-66% of all firearms deaths being suicides in the US.

you got a problem with suicide?

[DistantWind88]

141. Any idea what the comparative rates

Are for immigration from the US to Europe versus Europe to the US? I'll bet you'd be surprised at how many Europeans come to live here.

You set down "roots" there? I thought you lived on an Army base. BTW, I lived in Germany for three years (Stuttgart) I also lived in England for six years and have traveled extensively throughout ALL of Europe; there are MANY places I would not walk down a dark street in Europe.

[Cooley Hurd]

142. Can you provide those stats for us?

You made the statement - please back it up with facts...

No offense, but I prefer reason and fact over blind nationalism...

[DistantWind88]

143. Statements end with a "."

Questions end with a "?" I was asking, not asserting.

[Cooley Hurd]

144. Sorry, but I'm really tired of people defending...

...this indefensible country that no longer resembles the country I grew up in.

Personally, I'd rather live in Germany than in this rogue nation the US has become.

[DistantWind88]

145. I can understand your feeling that way

And if you do, you should go.

[Cooley Hurd]

146. I can't leave - my ancestors help create this country...

...and I owe it to them to stay and fight.

Cooley Hurd - 1757-1837
Fought with the CT militia in the Revolutionary War, and my great-great-great-great grandfather.

[DistantWind88]

147. I thought you said

you'd rather live in Germany? BTW, do you speak German? Have you visited there for any extended length of time? I lived in Baden-Wurttenburg--the Swabian people are very industrious and a little more aloof than say the Bavarians. I LOVE Bavaria.

[Cooley Hurd]

148. Under the present US govt, yes...

:thumbsdown:

However, I've chosen to stay and fight...

[lebkuchen]

149. Americans can buy in Europe (using LQA, even). Many have.

Add to that the non-military affilated ex-pats, and it's quite a large group of us in Europe. Go to an anti-Bush rally in any European country. The Americans all come out of the woodwork.

Many military families, whether in Europe or the Pacific, are concerned about safety for their children when they return to the states. They know first hand the difference in the safety factor between US culture and any other culture, basically.

As I said, you're happy in your shangri-la, packing heat, I'm happy in mine, not wanting to, having to, or legally being able to carry a loaded weapon.

I haven't lived in the US for 15 years, and have spent only 2-1/2 of the last 20 years in the US. I've traveled/camped most of Europe, Asia and Australia, much of it alone and down dark lanes at night. In Asia I've paid stipends for anybody with two wheels to take me in this direction or that. Never had a problem. I would never do that anywhere in the US.

Maybe American men have more difficulty in the rest of the world's dark alleys than do women.

[DistantWind88]

153. My , my

How you jump to conclusions. Where did I say I "pack heat?" Another instance of shooting before thinking I see.

I agree with you that there are many Americans happy living in Europe--I enjoyed it too. Still, most servicemen and women can't wait to get back to the States following their overseas tours.

Sorry you feel the US culture is the most unsafe in the world. Visit Haiti or most any country in Africa and get back to me on that. Walk the streets of Medellin and let me know how safe you felt. Walk the streets Soho or the alleyways of Brixton at night by yourself and see if you make it our with your purse or you life.

I've been to over 30 countries and have found good an bad and all. I'd still prefer to live here than anywhere else. We each have our own preferences, and I respect yours.

[lebkuchen]

154. "The most unsafe in the world" next to Iraq, if you please

Of course, the US has a lot to do w/that. Baghdad used to be a beautiful safe city. Look at it now. One can't even drive to the airport without getting one's legs blown off--US culture, there to stay. Sad.

The American military (plus family) eager to return to the US are the ones who have lived overseas for three years and pride themselves on never having exchanged a dollar for a euro. They are free to leave, imo.

Every country has its male fetish. Take Germany and its big engined cars, unlimited speedlimit. Still, I prefer that to a loaded gun; I can always take the train.

[DistantWind88]

155. You honestly believe the US is more unsafe than

any country in the world, next to Iraq? You might want to avail yourself of the website below which shows, for example, that European nations like Finland, Denmark, and the UK have higher total crime rates (per capita) than does the US. Or that Australia and Canada have higher rape rates (per capita) than does the US. Or that in South Africa the rate of murder by firearms is 37 times greater than in the US.

Seems perception doesn't count for much.

http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/Crime

[lebkuchen]

157. Are you trying to sell me on the US? Lived there, done that.

It's still the only country where I've seen a gun go off in public. In fact, it's the only country where I've ever seen a gun in public, period, not to mention signs on hospitals and mall entrances that loaded weapons are not allowed.

It's great you can handle that kind of stress. Glad you're happy. I prefer peace and tranquility.

[DistantWind88]

158. No, just trying to

show you that the facts don't jib with your statements. You can slam the US all you want; we deserve a lot of critism, but when you do, it'd be nice to be armed with facts and not supposition. Guten nacht. Lemme ask, are you stiil accepting money from Uncle Sugar?

[lebkuchen]

159. I'll take a 2 a.m. drug drop in Oslo over a 12:00 pm NY mall gun brawl

any day.

Yes, I pay US taxes. Last year's tax burden paid the salary of a typical Dyncorp mercenary, well, five days worth, anyway.

If you'd like me to purchase euro in bulk for you, PM me.

[DistantWind88]

160. Nice selective use of data

Just be glad you're not Kurdish and living in the Eastern part of Germany.

No thanks on the Euro. Everything I need to buy costs dollars, so unless I buy European products (I do like lots of German things unfortunately and French wine; but Australian, Chilean, and Californian wines are better buys anyway right now), I'm not losing out. I'm sure the COLA is pretty nice for you though.

[lebkuchen]

165. I never looked at your data.

I have too much personal experience to back up my claims.

I'm glad I'm not Iraqi trying to live in Iraq. It used to be a safe, beautiful, "cradle of civilization" place to visit. Wonderful carpet exhibitions. No more.

I'm annoyed w/myself for never having visited Damaskas before the US bombs it. Same for Teheran.

I do pity the Kurds in Turkey, a country we support despite its brutalization of a group of people the US feigned to protect as part of its rational for bombing Iraq.

[DistantWind88]

166. I see

Facts are meaningless to you. Good luck!

[Freebird12004]

96. ~ a "recruiter" WAS shot in the leg

that news is published this morning in local papers - but "the recruiter wasn't the reason for the shooting" {really ?}

[Freebird12004]

116. update- the bad news is - the young man who was shot may lose his leg

He was not a recruiter. But now they are saying that he is in the service.

[slackmaster]

164. If that's true, it's unfortunate he was unable to shoot back

It would surely have been an act of self-defense. No doubt he was complying with all laws and military regulations by not having a weapon when he really could have used one.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

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