Report shows academic gap between girls, boys

[Nottingham]

Report shows academic gap between girls, boys
By ALAINA SUE POTRIKUS
Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON - Throughout the industrialized world, girls are better readers than boys, according to a startling new study of 42 countries. Girls also have higher expectations than boys do of someday holding good jobs.
In addition, female college graduates - less than half of all graduates a decade ago - now outnumber their male counterparts in most industrialized countries, according to a 453-page report released this week by the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

"It just blows you away," said Barry McGaw, director for education at the OECD, a think tank on global social issues. "Fifteen years ago, we were saying that girls don't stay in school and don't go on to post-secondary education. Look what they've done in 15 years."
The study's results jibe with recent U.S. reports showing strong educational surges by women.
For example, 3 out of 5 members of high schools' National Honor Societies today are girls. Girls outnumber boys 124 to 100 in advanced placement courses. As recently as 1987, boys outnumbered girls in those demanding classes.

Girls also tend to get better grades. A survey of U.S. high school seniors who took the SAT in 2000 found that 44 percent of the young women reported A averages. Among men, 35 percent did. And a count of valedictorians in the Philadelphia area last spring turned up 106 females and only 64 males.

more...

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/redir.php?jid=345d17ba50a16efb

Well Ladies ya have kicked Butt

but is this good for society! To have males falling behind?
Wonder what the next 30 years will be showing?

[expatriot]

1. Soccer moms quote Socratic Method, Nascar dads quote O' Reilly Factor

somethin' to that effect.

gurl power! (i am a boy)


(boys have to edit more often because we are dum)

[BayCityProgressive]

2. I think there needs to be a study of this trend

and a solution to the problem worked out. I don't want to see men disadvantaged anymore than I want to see women or minoriites disadvantaged. I am really curious as to the causes of this. Possibly the fact that women feel they have to work harder to get the same recognition as men?

[Skittles]

3. women have always had to work twice as hard

to be seen as half as good. We are quite used to it.

[BayCityProgressive]

4. I agree

I am justs aying maybe more women are successful than men now because they feel theyhave to work into overdrive whereas men think they don't have to work as hard. Maybe this is a possiblity?

[Skittles]

5. maybe women are just smarter

Maybe this is a possibility?

[juajen]

6. Well said, Skittles

Actually I know that women are smarter in some areas. One of those areas is common sense, and their common sense is telling them that too many men leave women for a younger model; hence, they need to educate and learn to advance in the world for the good of their family or themself.

None of this surprises me. I am the mother of three very smart girls, and twin boys who lag far behind. Some of this is plain genetics, the twins were adopted, and some is simply incentive. The twins refused to go to college. The two older girls have two advanced degrees, the younger one is still an undergraduate. It's underpaid blue-collar work for the twins (neither can pass drug tests) and for the two older girls, it's nice salaries and further to go. I expect the same from my younger girl, who is also planning on getting a graduate degree.

However, my husband is much smarter than I am. Though I am the better speller, writer, grammarian and editor and have more common sense, his IQ is off the wall. Not that I'm dumb, but hubbie's IQ is highter than Clinton's.

[delete_bush]

13. What evidence do you have

that your twins are genetically inferior to your girls? Do you know that their biological parents are less intelligent than you and your Clintonesque hubby?

Not knowing the age at which they were adopted, is it possible that they were exposed to some early childhood trauma? Or maybe other factors?

By the way, I do applaud you for adopting, I just have a problem with your "Bell Curve" reasoning for explaining in part their intellectual differences.

[lazarus]

8. Sure

Women are smarter. That's why they're in charge.

:eyes:

Maybe there's a lot more to it than that. Maybe there are a lot of complicated social and cultural issues causing this.

Edited to add:

A few years ago, women were lagging in academics, especially the maths and sciences. Would you have accepted a statement that men are smarter back then?

[ant]

29. maybe men don't need school

Compared to others, at least.

I remember seeing a chart once that showed earnings (in the US) broken down by gender, race, and level of education. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the basic idea was that men, especially white men, can do better with less. A white man with only a high school education basically has the same earning potential as a black woman who goes to college.

I'll try to hunt down the link again, but I'm sure the fact that men have more options with less education is at least part of the picture here.

[RobinA]

42. Yep,

that was my thinking. It has a LOT to do with the discrepancy. Guy-centric jobs pay more. I know guys with half a brain and no college who can get low level computer jobs (traditionally male) starting at $50,000. Here I am working on my graduate degree working in social work (traditionally female) in a job that started at $28,000.

[Lorien]

12. Very true

another factor might be that women outnumber men throughout the industrized world-one reason being dairy products. I've read that hormones used to increase milk production in cattle can 'feminize" fetuses. Since the last statisic I heard was that American is 57% female, I guess anything is possible. :shrug:

Also, I think our culture makes fewer and fewer demands on boys; it seems many of them have been using Bart Simpson as a roll model for the past decade, but that doesn't account for the other 41 countries.

[Iris]

48. or that sports are emphasized more for boys?

maybe even too much?

[goddess40]

56. Bingo!!!! Sports are cool and classes aren't

I've seen bright boys throw it all away because they didn't want to be seen as doing what was expected of them.

Very sad.

edit -
a lot of it is because they spend WAY too much time practicing sports and socializing that there is no time or energy to do school work. Besides school work is just that - work.
Not to mention computer games, game cube, playstation and gameboy games are geared to boys.

[loyalsister]

7. It's the format

Some contributing factors.
Women have better natural verbal ability, and The tests are in this format. Gives them a natural advantage. Women tend to read more. They may be expanding some of their knowledge base on their own more often than boys in some cases.
Evaluations of biological and anthropological evidence by Helen Fisher in a book called "The First Sex" offer very good possible explanations for why this may be happening. The bottom line is men and women are built differently and have different talents. It's unreasonable to call either "better" or "smarter." Although the testing will lead people to some reactions in that direction. We would do well to find a way to balance the problem that seems to be created by giving such weight to verbal ability. This looks like there's a very real possibility that abilities and potential of boys aren't showing up with current education and testing.

[lazarus]

9. very well said

Thank you for this post. There are a multitude of things that could be causing this discrepancy.

[lolly]

18. Problem Here

Boys still score higher on SATs--used to be just in math, but I believe thay've passed up girls in verbal as well--

What does that say about the theory that "girls are just better at taking tests?"

Or about the theory that SATs offer any meaningful evaluation of college potential?

[NashVegas]

25. SAT Scores are Pretty Worthless

Thanks to all the strategy guides.

[loyalsister]

54. Boys are more competetive

They are less interested in reading or learning, more interested in "winning." It's all wrapped up in our evolutionary history, and the role of males and females have played. It's the females who teach the species. Thus the better verbal ability. This is a neurological fact. Females can produce more words on demand, have more regions of the brain devoted to speech, and the brain is better connected. They don't however like to engage themselves in competition. The competition of the grading system has been something that has been a part of the school setting for so long has not been something that females have naturally felt comfortable participating in.
The way girls have tried to gain reward in school has been by behaving well. They have won favor with teachers, and those efforts have traditionally been reflected in their recorded performance measures. They also learned because they basically like to learn. This is damn fortunate since they have had the traditional role of teaching the species. On average, girls read more than boys. Call it sucking up or whatever, schools have officially recognized good and bad behavior in the grading system for a very long time, and it has probably always influenced teacher's grades.
Standardized testing, however, has not been their strong suit in the past. There is also the problem that girls multi task better but don't feel as comfortable focusing their attention for long periods of time. Recently, we're overriding traits that developed as a result of evolution. Women have begun to place more of an emphasis on competing. Girls can do better on those tests if they can force themselves to compete and concentrate.
You're exactly right about the meaningful nature of SATS as an appropriate measure. I think it depends on the school. It is very likely that there are schools that offer curriculla that students can tailor to their cognitive preferences. Some students don't like to compete or be graded in traditional ways and some schools may offer such those options. Others prefer heavy competition.
Think of the design of programs offered by Devry. Who atttends them? I haven't seen data, but have never known a woman to attend that program. What about something offered to would-be engineers who could opt out of humanities courses if they wanted, etc.
Yet, it appears that it has been decided that a person had no sense of culture and could not be considered to have an advanced education without them. Maybe that's unfair. I suspect it was a woman who made that decision because it was a way to put men's and women's educations on equal footing in the times when they could not attend the same schools. Women were the ones who decided what "etiquette" and "good manners" were all about. And, things like knowledge about humanities fellunder the heading of being "cultured." The things that persist....
This book I mentioned comes off as some kind of "feminist" book, but really it is and it isn't. Certainly not if I'm pulling this out of it. It talks about historically overlooked talents of girls while remembering to emphasize that this does not dwarf the talents of boys. The thing is, if we recognize biological differences we all do better.

[JPace]

23. "Women have better natural verbal ability"

Reading and writing are communication skills in
which women excell. If there is one thing that
advances people through education it is reading
and writing. If one fails or does poorly in other
subjects they can always catch up later in life
through reading and study. Without good reading
skills one is left without the tool to sharpen
these knowledge gaps.

[ant]

31. one point

Women have better natural verbal ability, and The tests are in this format. Gives them a natural advantage.

If that's the case why didn't that natural advantage pop up before? Haven't the tests always been the same format?

[laconicsax]

10. It's a matter of motivation

Grades have nothing to do with intelligence, especially in high school. They're entirely motivation. I'm fairly intelligent and have an IQ of about 150. I could have been a valedictorian in high school, but I didn't have the motivation. I did the least amount of work to meet the minimum requirements for my classes and graduated with a 3.5. Now, in college, I have more motivation and my GPA's at 3.85 or so.

In my graudating class (2002), there were a lot of stupid guys, and stupid girls. More girls were on the honor roll. The attitude of most of the guys and girls on the honor roll was good grades=good college=good job. More girls had this attitude than guys. I don't know why though.

I have gotten the distinct impression, now that I'm in college, that more girls actually care about having a good career and doing well in life while they're still in school. That's what makes the difference. Most of the guys I go to school with don't have any career aspirations or idea of what they'll do once they're out of school. They go to class, don't pay attention, and don't care. They get back from class, drink, get high (pot or cocaine) and play video games until around 2AM--every day.

Guys are simply falling behind because for whatever reason, they stopped caring while at the same time, girls started caring more.

[donsu]

26. yes and TV teaches boys to not care about learning

If you have ever watched MTVs Sorority and Fraternity reality shows you will notice all the young men want to do is drink and screw.

Many TV ads teache boys to lie and cheat on their mother's and sister's. And that it is cool to do so.

Situations where the girl is good and smart and the boy is a drip.

Watch the ads, see the subliminal messages. Many are overt.

[sybylla]

33. Its not just in ads for kids

Look at ads playing during adult viewing. How often is the woman portrayed as smart and capable while the man is just a bumbling fool who just couldn't get along in life without her. Shows up in programming too, like Home Improvement, King of Queens, and many more. My spouse grumbles about this all the time and wonders when it became okay to bash the intelligence of men on such a regular basis. It bothers me as well and I often wonder if my boys will be growing up with the same defeatist attitude that I and many of my friends had for awhile growing up as a girl in the 70's when all the women on TV were nothing if they weren't married and taken care of by the much smarter and very capable men.

[RobinA]

43. I'm a Female

and this bugs me. Never could stand Home Improvement for this very reason. I used to think Everybody Loves Raymond was hilarious, but Deborah turned into such a shrew I'd destroy me TV set if I had to watch that show. If I were a guy living with a woman like that I'd have to kill her. Not only does it perpetrate that "men are bumbling fools" myth, but it perpetrates "women are irritable shrews." What's so funny about a woman who won't let her husband play golf?

[jbm]

27. I think motivation does have a lot to do with it..

everytime the subject of 'boys versus girls' test results comes up,I always remember a time when I was in grade school and we all had to take one of those standardized tests. The boys figured out how to play some kind of 'football/betting/airplane' sort of game with their pencils. (I'm a girl-I was taking the test- I never did figure out what the hell they were doing exactly)but anyway..they had big fun without getting caught. When the test scores came back the school was horrified and all the parents of the boys wanted to know why their sons were so far behind. The school board got involved..one thing led to another..and most of the boys either took summer classes OR a few of them actually repeated the grade. It amused/irritated me because I KNEW it was because they didn't really take the stupid test. The obvious answer was totally overlooked.

Ironically,the game they managed to design and mass implement in total silence and without being detected was an act of genious!

[uhhuh]

11. I See A Trend

It seems to me that there has been such inherent sexism in society for so long, that there seems to be a general attitude that having a penis, and doing an ok job in school, gives one advantages that cannot be claimed by women. Women then have to try harder and achieve more to get the same kinds of rewards and recognition as their male counterparts.

In addition to this, it seems to me that there is general arversion in men to show their intelligence. Socialization in school and in life in general, seems to praise the goofy oaf, and attack those men who show intellingence as geeks, eggheads and nerds. It seems that there is nothing "cool" about being smart. Instead, men are viewed as worthy if they are athletic, violent , or shrewd in business.( which doesn't require intelligence, but rather, an ability to be willing to screw over the other guy before he screws you.

None of the attributes that could lead to a healthy society are encouraged in men. Men are lauded for their amoral ability for have as many sexual conquests as possible, while those who attempt to understand and relate to women and be a loyal partner are viewed as wimps and pussies.
Some of the blame for this has to be given to women who reward and encourage this behavior. Those who will tolerate this stupidity from males add to the problem. If there was no payoff, men would shape up.

Women are not second class citizens. The first group that has to realize this is women themselves. By gaining the confidence they most richly deserve to have, they could prevent the boorish behavior that men have become used to, from remaining the dominant influence on all our lives. Women have to be the ones to do it. There is currently no incentive for men to do it. Currently, men get all the benefits of the current status quo. It doesn't matter who does better in school if even a total failure can be president.
Women!! Beautiful, strong, smart women!! Please help us save the world. Men who have a significant degree of interest in achieving a sexual balance in this society are being marginalized. It can't be done by those of us on the inside. Help!!

DU women are the future. Never have I seen a more strong willed, intelligent group who could possibly achieve more in a short time than you. If anyone can fix this gender imbalance, it is you.

[dani]

14. that's a good point

about there being a peer pressure that informs boys that it's "uncool" to be smart and to excel at scholastics. But unfortunately I don't think it's an entirely male-only phenomenon -- I remember reading reports of study results about a year ago that african-american and hispanic girls face that same type of peer pressure, sometimes very intensely (which is a strong factor in the high rate of high school drop-outs hispanic girls). I'd like to link to an article but I'm sorry I can't find anything at the moment.

And if there's any concerns about women being a few years away from taking the lead in the workplace from men, here's a few indications of women's status today:

* There are 5 women CEO’s in the Fortune 500, and only 8 women CEO’s in the Fortune 1000. Women fill 6.2% of total line positions held by corporate officers; men fill 93.8%

* Black women earn 65% of white men’s median wages, Hispanic women 52%

* Women hold 3% of the top jobs in communications

* There are 0 women executives at AOL/Time Warner

* There are 0 women executives at Amazon

* 11% of the top 40 TV shows were directed by women

* There are only 13 women Senators in the U.S. Congress (out of 100), and 62 women Representatives (out of 435)

* As of October 2000, 6 states had never sent a woman to Congress

The reason I mention these things is because I can already hear rightwing wackos such as Rush and Savage using this report as ammunnition to support their claims that women today are ultrapriviledged and white men are an embattled minority.

;)

[mom says lose bush]

15. Right Wing Wackos claiming we somehow have the upper hand.

Grr....

Isn't that pathetic?

It's getting worse all the time it seems. I'm VERY concerned with the abuses in the family courts due to the influence of fathers rights. I believe that this election is a good time to bring some serious attention to these issues and make them a priority to the candidate we elect.

This is personal with me. My little girl was illegally wrested from me and given to her father--an admitted under oath child sexual abuser! Bush was involved as our Governor. I received a letter from his office that he would intervene on my child's behalf and TDPRS and LE claim they've received letters from him. But the situation then became an unbelievable nightmare.

http://profiles.yahoo.com/momluvsuplum

[Le Taz Hot]

17. Actually, the abuses in Family Court

are exactly the opposite of what you describe. I posted a LONG thread about this several months ago about how fathers do not get equal treatment under the law in custody cases. I did a MASSIVE amount of research on this and posted my findings here on DU. Though I made a plea for people to respond with emprical studies (not antecdotal evidence) and to keep the debate within the realm of logical discourse, the opposite happened.

This is a HUGE problem that few people are willing to discuss. We hear all the time about "deadbeat dads" but there are just as many cases of "deadbeat moms." It divides us and it shouldn't. The focus should be the children and what is best for them.

[LizW]

16. Excellent post

Thank you for pointing out these statistics.

If there is a "problem" inherent in the fact that females are doing better than males in school, it is nothing to do with schooling. It is a result of the things you mention. It shows that girls and young women are realizing at an early age how much harder they have to work to attain the same success in the working world that men do.

I view this evidence of female success in academics as very encouraging. The business and political world will not just change voluntarily. It will change only when women force it to change. These high-achieving girls are preparing to do that.

[GinaMaria]

21. We can't do it alone

It needs to be both genders working together. We were meant to work together in partnership to solve problems. The more we function normally, the more our children will learn to live in balance, the better future generations will be. Just my 2 cents.

Men need a confidence boost too that living your life as a decent, caring human being and being true to yourself instead of mirroring what the media says is male culture will make both boys and girls and stronger. I think we have to fix imbalances together.

Both men and women need to make better decisions about life partners and put aside gender hurts of the past and work together.

I'm willing to work with you. Any ideas where to start?

[lazarus]

30. where to start?

Your post is the perfect start. Just keep saying that, and hopefully people will listen and start to act.

[GinaMaria]

37. Thanks

sending you hug. Let's both start saying it. That's a double start. Let's see if it spreads :-)

[midnight armadillo]

19. Boys are drugged much more often in school

The use of Ritalin and other psychoactive drugs in much more common amongst boys in schools than girls. Boy's energy levels and physical activity is not tolerated much anymore, hence the diagnosis of 'ADD' and daily trips to the nurse. I would certainly be up to the eyeballs on drugs if I were 12 right now - I was an energetic (but well behaved) kid. I still fidget like mad, but since I'm about to get a PhD it hasn't seemed to hold me back much.

This is a factor in the decline of academic performance of boys, although I don't know how much.

[GinaMaria]

20. change in philosophy

I can only speak to my personal experience. I graduated HS about 20 years ago. My thinking has definitely changed.

I was raised in sexist home and Catholic school, but fortunately received different messages from women in the world who fought hard for equality. My thinking changed. I saw the value of a woman's education like this:

An educated woman not only supports herself, but educates her family. An educated and working woman protects herself and her family. Being economically dependent on someone else leaves her and her children vulnerable. Anything can happen, a bad marriage or death of a spouse. My education and employeement protect me and those dependent on me. I feel much more responsible for my future and my well being than I did when I was younger. I think, at least through the men I know, that they don't feel as burdened as men in my father's generation. Responsibility is shared.

We have to do something to pull boys back up though. Our society can only be the best it can be if everyone is functioning at their optimum.

Peace,
Gina

[Mikimouse]

22. May I suggest the economy as a source?

I have often argued that male students are more likely to examine the value of education in terms of short term expectations (rewards, based on an evaluation of costs and benefits, as it were). Female students, having been excluded for such a long time from higher education (really, any education), tend to look past the 'instant gratification' aspects of education. Since Parsons' described the 'Isolated Nuclear Family' in the 1950s, the drive to obtain a well rounded education has been in decline, in step with the economy, meaning that those occupying the 'breadwinner' role (defined even now as a male role by most if not all functionalists), may be perceived as not being competitive without the overt displays of 'wealth', and as early as possible. One illustration of this disparity in perceptions is the gap in final grades in courses that are not likely to provide instant and visible rewards. :hippie:

[Yavin4]

24. Don't Forget About Athletics

Boys, far more so than girls, are encouraged to participate in sports, even if that means ignoring their academic studies. Because there are few viable professional sports leagues for women, even when women play sports, they know that there won't be a huge pay day on the horizon, so they focus more on their academics.

[reprobate]

28. May a certified 'Old Man' weigh in with an observation?

To present my bona fides, let me say that I graduated high school in 1958. Doesn't give me any more intellect than anyone else, just a longer period of observations.

One thing that I have observed is the fact that our entire society, with the exception of a small segment of families that valued education, presented the macho, hard fighting but stupid man as the ideal. I haven't watched many 'family' sitcoms in decades, but the one thing that is evident to anyone who does is the fact that the male of the family is always portrayed with all the finess of the china shop bull. His most intelligent lines are the beer burps. Meanwhile the female has to pull his butt out of trouble.

The male is encouraged to accell in athletics. If he is scholastically successful he's a nerd. Of course even if he IS superior in athletics, his chance of a carreer in it are almost nill. So once he finds out that he's not going to be a multi-millionaire from playing games, he has nothing to fall back on, and sinks from sight.

Of course, there is a genetic element involved. If I may generalize, the female seems to be the 'generalist', while the male leans more to be the specialist. Yes, a generalization, but we're talking in generalizations.

This is the reason that, when given the opportunity, I will choose a woman for an MD, and a man for a surgeon. My GP is a woman and the decision to pick her is one I pride myself in. In my esperience, the woman relates to me as a person, not as a patient. She is a doctor, not a god, as has been my experience with some male doctors.

For my part, I would not be at all opposed to seeing our society become a matriarchy. I look at the world situation and think that us males have done such a shitty job, it's time for a change. Maybe then ALL people will have health care, and 400 people would not own ten percent of the GDP.

But I'm an old man. What do I know?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. Hey handsome..intersting stat from someone who does legal

work for physicians.....less instances of malpractice with female surgeons...even OBGYN's where a huge percentage of live births (more than other specialties) results in a legal action.

[reprobate]

39. "Handsome"? (Blush) You don't know me very well, do you?

Very interesting,NSMA. Not surprising tho. Perhaps us males should be limited to our traditional roles. Hunting, fishing, and making war.

[Exultant Democracy]

32. Total BS

Studies like this are worthless and totally misleading because of the huge amount of important data that they leave out or de-emphasize (such as the income factor). The information in this article was cherry picked by people with an agenda. Their agenda is to make women think, “hey we made it everything is fine.” But the truth is ladies you still have a lot of fighting left to do.

[aneerkoinos]

35. Why is this study called startling?

This has been known at least for decades. Well maybe only in relatively equal societies like Finland, where women have had equal or close to equal opportunities for a long time. Based on biology women have better language skills, so this should be no surprise.

Women have also better social skills and tend to be more responsible than men. Men have better spatial skills, so natural scienses still remain male dominated. Naturally individual differences surpass these generalisations, but for society, these relative differences do matter.

Yep, more feminine society is a good thing, because that means more social responsibility and less pissing contests that often lead in violence. Only downside I can see is a more pampering society, a Big Sister society, and my modest hope is that when women grab power, they will leave some room for us men to follow our natural instinct to do stupid things. We will be very unhappy if we can't do stupid irresponsible things, and if we are unhappy, women can't be very happy. Also sometimes the stupid thing we do can end up being actually quite smart things and good for the whole of the society.

[hyphenate]

36. Some men are raised differently

An emphasis has, in the past, been to prepare men for their roles as husbands, breadwinners and heads of households. Nowadays, many women are as much heads of households and chief breadwinners in families. Many women do "give up" and take on the role of wife and domestic engineer, but I think more and more females are becoming assertive, and don't want to be tied down to home and hearth.

Men are, as a result, turning more to pleasure than to promise. Skateboarding, video games, and other weapons of mass distraction are turning more men into fat and unruly globs with nothing but couch potato futures. They have become lazy about their goals in life, and some will admit, even into their twenties, that they have no goals.

Some men believe that they possess certain skills simply because they are male. I know some men, who are highly intelligent, who are as challenged when it comes to certain tasks as if they'd never been exposed to them in their lives. One in particular has a low mechanical ability who doesn't realize it, and takes an hour what I can do in 10 minutes. But it's pride that makes a man attempt to do something for which he is not suited in that sort of a task.

[Eloriel]

38. We are still a long way from true equality

so we do not know, for sure, how the two sexes are "naturally," or "by nature." All we know is that for millennia women (and girls, obviously) have been actively suppressed from living up to their potential and living full lives.

By my casual reckoning (and iI could be wrong 'cause I haven't put pen to paper on it), this would be the first generation of girls born to women who were born after the huge gains of the Women's Movement. IOW, these are the granddaughters of the "Women's Libbers."

So when you ask:

but is this good for society! To have males falling behind?

There are a lot of things that go through my mind, but one of them is fear. GREAT fear. It's the kind of question -- and no offense to you -- that so easily could engender a return to the very repression women have fought so had to overcome.

Wonder what the next 30 years will be showing?

Yes, so do I.

Eloriel

[Nottingham]

41. NO CHILD SHOULD BE LEFT BEHIND! NO MATTER WHAT!

And I'm afraid is right! What happens to MEN who are uneducated, and angry and resentful!......Prisons Wars

Do we want to see this in 30 years???

I'm for helping the Boys because I feel we are losing them!

An Uneducated society is open to tyranny! And alas Men are part of this society! just as well as women

These are Hard Questions! But they need to be addressed!

:bounce:

[JoFerret]

40. I'm waiting for the money and power to even out

'...only then can we talk "kicked butt". When a woman earns a 100 cecents on the male dollar and has positions of poiwer and influence equal to men with comparable experience and qualifications - THEN we can talk. Until then - this is all smoke and mirrors and open to all manner of sexist speculation. And don't let's get distracted. We all need better education children and renewed commitment to education. Let's start by scrapping the "No Child Left Behind"(sic) Act.

[Nottingham]

44. What are ya saying! Let the Boys fail! So that the Girls triumph!

I'm saying the Boys need help! Thats what these statistics are about!

And ignoring this will be disastrous for our society!

So its all about Money so that all women make more than men and not about the child's welfare!

With attitudes like this

No Wonder there is the Angry Man phenomenon! :bounce:

Theres alot more here than meets the eye

I think they want our Boys to be stoopid so they can be easily manipulated and fodder for wars!

Theres nothing more terrifying than a mob of angry men!

[veganwitch]

47. have you read "stiffed" by susan falundi

she also wrote backlash: the undeclared war against women.

also a very good author in men's studies is christopher kilmartin. he has a spoken word/one man comedy act called crimes against nature and his thesis is that the way boys are raised and taught about what a man is and what it takes to be a man (aka male gender roles) are "crimes against nature."

finding real men's studies books can be difficult because they are either throwbacks to standard male gender behaviour or backlash against feminism.

these are very important in getting a good perspective on gender roles needed to create gender equality.

[veganwitch]

45. gender, nature and more

first id like to concur with many of the things already mentioned in previous posts.

girls in school (middle to high) now are daughters of the first women who were told they could be whatever they wanted to be (and those opportunities really were open to them--with still much left to be done). thusly, they are telling the same to their daughters. therefore there is that expection, especially middle to upper class for girls and young women, to go on to college and not simply for pink collared jobs.

also, the expections on boys and young men, especially young men of colour, is not towards the same goals. what role models to young men of colour have? they are either sports/movie stars or in jail. hmmm. doesnt leave many options that are going to motivate someone for good grades and hard studies.

these are social factors, not only the environment in which you are raised but also how you are simply treated because of your sex. this is gender. whether females are more adept to social skills and males mechanical is a "chicken or the egg" question. are females more socially-able because they are expected to be so and those skills are taught to them? are males really more inclined to build/destroy things because its in their genes or because they are given toy tools and told to "help daddy" fix the car, the sink, program the VCR?

gender/behavioural binaries ignore the fact that there is spectrum of sexual identity (intersexed folk as well as transgendered and transexuals) and that in any analysis of behaviour/data a good majority is going to be found in the middle (bell curve anyone?) yes i majored in english (and women and gender studies) but i was originally a chemistry major. ive never been one for really knowing how to fix a car (other than standard good to know stuff) and computers but i like knowing how shit works. where does this put me? and everyone else on the planet?

and on another simple level, do we really want to resort to such simplistic thinking? because men have, by nature, the ability to penetrate and grow stronger/gain more muscle mass, does that mean they are going to be violent and abusive? because i have a uterus does that mean that barefoot in the kitchen is what i want my primary identity to be? biological determinism and gender roles based on only two sexes alone has been the basis of all oppression because one has to follow the other, one on top one on bottom. instead lets appreciate and allow to grow all identities and all skills in all people.

edit: for clarity.

[Nottingham]

46. Well said VeganWitch! I want everybody to grow to their full potential

:bounce:

[Iris]

49. You know what's really scarey? When fundies address this issue,

they blame the problem on the "feminization" of public schools.

[Nottingham]

50. Well ya better be ready to answer and have a way to help the boys

cause your going to look like what they accuse femminists off!

POWER HUNGRY!

I'm just giving the Alarm buzzer its coming!

[Iris]

51. hey, I'm all about the boys.

I just hate that the problem needs to be described in terms that are derogatory to girls. I've heard people become defensive of girls when this comes up and if people are going to make up crap like the public schools are "feminized" than other people are going to become even more defensive.

[Nottingham]

52. Is this derogatory to the girls! The Girls are going Awesomely!

and What Progress the Girls have made its AMAZING!

But the facts are documented and the statistics are there
and this hasn't been happening for a couple of years either its turning out for over a decade!

We are talking generations here!

Get those arguments ready!

Cause the One that until Women get paid more than Men and are the majority of CEOS then we do something is a pretty selfish and weak argument!

We are talking of children's education here! :bounce:

[Iris]

53. My hope would be that people who really care about education

would not get involved in a discussion about boys vs. girls and try to redirect the debate where it needs to be - the state of public education.

I feel certain that if someone were to really look into this phenomena, he/she would find that it's nothing more than a right wing attempt to destroy public shools in much the same way their idea of vouchers would.

[AmericaInWonderland]

55. Is consistent with my own experience

In high school, more than 70% of the top ranked students in my class were females. Also more than half of the nation merit finalists were females. Personally I think its great for the girls but sad for many guys -- especially those with a future in blue collar America. When you have a job where a robot or a cheap foreign worker can and will replace you, the only thing left to do is rebel.

I read some of your responses and I agree motivation and societal stereotypes portrayed on mass media are factors in this trend. Of course I also think that there are more dumbass boys than dumbass girls. Now before you guys get your briefs in a bunch, let me explain. Guys are stupid. Ok that let me explain further. Guys are less wise especially in their teenage years. In my own experience guys don't think about the consequences of their actions. More than 80% of the kids who disrupt class, get expelled, drop out, etc. in my high school and college were guys. Its not that they aren't smart. Many times they just are not wise and many times they make decisions which have negative consequences which are hard to reverse.

Also I noticed that guys tend to be more defiant towards authority than females. Perhaps its the macho media image or genetics or both. I remember one instance of a male student (smart junkie who took his SAT while high and still scored over 1500) who did not back down in a confrontation in a math class and ended up in a violent showdown with the teacher which resulted in suspension and summer school. The only reason he did not back down was dumb male pride (sounds like Bush don't it). And believe me I remember so many more of these instances in high school and college. Girls I remember were less confrontational and tended not to go out of the boundaries set by authority as often as boys. You may call those boys risk takers but I think that's just a euphemism for people who don't look before they leap.

Sometimes dropouts and failures get lucky and figure out the theory of relativity, found a chain selling old fashion hamburgers, or manage to appear on/control virtually every PC sold in the world. But I would venture to say that more often than not, these guys end up working in dissatisfying jobs and going postal, living on the streets/jail, committing suicide, and numerous other tragic and unproductive roles in society. Guys should learn a thing or two from girls. Cuz not everyone gets second chances or has a rich dad to bail them out everytime.

Edit: grammar and clarity