Seven NAMBLA Members Busted in Sex Sting

[skippythwndrdog]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,147645,00.html

LOS ANGELES — Seven members of the North American Man/Boy Love Association (search), including two teachers, were arrested in Southern California and charged with allegedly planning to travel to Mexico to have sex with boys, authorities said.

An eighth man was charged with distributing child pornography, said FBI spokeswoman Laura Eimiller.

Four men were arrested in Los Angeles and three in San Diego Saturday.

They were charged Monday, following a sting operation in which each man allegedly paid hundreds of dollars to an undercover agent to arrange the sex, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (search) said during a news conference Monday.

click the link above for more.

Fucking perverts. I hope they die.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

1. Good. Hang them.

Any links to the fundies revealed yet? Just curious.

[Warpy]

36. I'd feel the same way EXCEPT

that this has "entrapment" written all over it.

The guy infliltrated the organization and then set up this trip and hyped it to the organization.

I have no sympathy for their cause, but I do think this one will be thrown out of court for that reason.

When over zealous cops cross a line, the case is generally thrown out of court. The infiltrator should have kept his eyes open for any trips being set up by other members, and THEN busted them.

This isn't a clean bust. I wish it were.

[Hamlette]

42. why do you think this is entrapment?

I was a criminal defense lawyer for years. (Still a lawyer just not criminal defense.) I can't tell from this article that it is entrapment. In fact, from the information here, looks like a clean bust to me.

Very few cases get thrown out on entrapment, or any other technicality for that matter.

[RPM]

65. I agree with you...

for it to be entrapment, wouldnt the persons entrapped be otherwise free from predisposition to commit the crime, but for the officer's suggestion of the crime?

I wouldnt imagine that a member of NAMBLA would be able to assert that he was otherwise not predisposed to engage in such activity.

[jdj]

70. yes, their motto is "sex after eight is too late"

that's eight years old.

[egoprofit]

156. these people are sick and need to be beheaded

seriously send these sick fucks to iraq. fuck entrapment, what the hell are you talking about? THESE GUYS ENJOY HAVING SEX WITH CHILDREN. i hope they burn in hell. seriously.

[Old Mouse]

96. entrapment defense

has not been effective against these sort of charges. I would try to argue they had been coerced, or Internet exposure had driven them temporarily insane, but they were members of an organization DEDICATED to finding ways of raping boys.

I really try to be fair and see all viewpoints, but hell no. No way. Joining the organization rightfully ostracizes you from society. Self-centered morons.

[TryingToWarnYou]

120. Opportunity isnt entrapment.

I cant believe people are rushing to the defense of these losers.

[noonwitch]

136. Their group's name is an acronym for criminal behavior

It's hardly infiltration when an organization calls itself the Man-Boy Love Association. They're scum and they deserved what they get. They're going to love prison life.

[renaissanceguy]

139. Yes, they should be punished.

But I worry about what is going on in the mind of FAUX NEWS. Perhaps this is antigay propaganda? "Oh look, those damn faggots are mollesting our kids again." And even though that we know most child mollestors are white, heterosexual males, the fundies refuse to admit it.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/466053

[benburch]

2. Good riddance to bad rubbish. nt

[Jamastiene]

180. I second that

Part of the reason I decided not to interact with many gay organizations is because they actually put a link up to the NAMBLA web site and I didn't think that was a good idea. Pedophilia is hideous. If these people would just go out with young "looking" men, who are legally old enough, it would be okay in my opinion as long as it was consentual. If they are going for children, they do need to be stopped. I don't get why they can't go for just the younger "looking" men. :shrug:

[tx_dem41]

193. Can you please reference the "many gay organizations" that link...

...up to NAMBLA? I admit that I am skeptical of the claim.

[Dookus]

3. well

since the mortality rate for humans is still hovering at close to 100%, you'll probably get your wish.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. Was one of them the brother of the so-called president?

[Sparkle]

5. Wait a minute!

Are the acronyms NAMBLA = North American/Man/Boy Love Association for real?!?!?!

I did not know that.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

7. Oh, so real! n/t

[Dogmudgeon]

11. What NAMBLA is

It's the North American Marlon Brando Look-Alikes society.

Everybody knows that.

:)

--p!

[girl gone mad]

73. Shame on you!

I wasn't prepared to be laughing at anything in this thread.

[Nimrod]

41. There's a NAWGLA too

But nobody ever talks about them. I don't know if it's just because they're female and therefore not perceived as dangerous or what.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

256. Interesting. It must be the lack of penetration/ violation

which makes it less offensive. Nevermind the psychological trauma involved. It goes to show our obsession with sex and violence at the ignorance of emotional aspects.
Anyway, I didn't know there was a NAWGLA.

[BR_Parkway]

6. Includes a minister and two teachers

Jeff Devore, 53, of Fullerton was arrested Saturday and charged with distributing child pornography as a result of the sting, Eimiller said. Devore, a minister at the Brea Congregational Church (search), in Orange County, was not accused of planning to go on the Mexico trip.

[mzmolly]

58. Oh good gawd!

:puke:

[Redstone]

8. Including two teachers?

Jesus wept.

I sure do admire the "undercover agent" for his self-control; how many of us would have been able to refrain from beating the scumbag to a pulp right there and then?

Redstone

[Skittles]

12. Jeez that would be tough

yes indeed

[Bluebear]

9. I wonder if any other news source is labling it "NAMBLA"?

Other than FOX that is.

This "NAMBLA", which if it truly exists as an organization is a loosely allied group of sick sick sick paedophiles, seems to be inextricably linked with any gay story FOX covers, except for Jeff Gannon of course.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

24. These are horrible people, but a web page doesn't make an organization

I would love to find out this organization's address and picket and expose them.

[Occulus]

40. NAMBLA has been around for years.

Ick, ick, ick.

[Bluebear]

44. Agree agree agree

[TheWraith]

165. They don't have an address per se.

It's not a structured organization in the way you normally think of it. They operate in small, loosely connected cells, varying their meeting times, concealing their identities, and reporting to a rather nebulous chain of command that doesn't surface much. Kind of like terrorists, though these guys are actually here in the country.

[ChrisPhx]

39. It is real, unfortunately

I had heard of them on some talk show years ago.

It is infuriating to hear anyone try to justify what is simply abuse of the worst kind.

[Bluebear]

46. Meanwhile, welcome to DU Chris!

[Igel]

33. It exists. Shanley was one of its founding members. n/t

[Bluebear]

35. Uccccccch

Well, I just hope sensible people out there remember NAMBLA "members" are not gay, they are paedophiles!

[jdj]

71. NAMBLA is real, they march in gay pride marches, and we hate their guts.

that's the ugly truth.

They sue to be included, and the ACLU defends their right to free assmebly. But they get booed. Everone hates them.

Stands for North American Man-Boy Love Association.

[LinuxInsurgent]

83. i would think so!

Gay people already have enough "public relations" issues to deal with, with a mainstream audience that his highly homophobic.

The last thing gay parades need is to have these OUT OF BOUNDS hetero or homosexual pedophiles attaching themselves to the Gay Agenda..

To be homosexual and have equal rights is not the same struggle as to be allowed to have sex with human beings that do not have the adequate age to understand the ramification of their actions.

NAMBLA is sickening...and their organization should be thoroughly banned and fined with major penalties if they continue to flaunt the sex laws of the United States. This isn't free speech...this is preying on the defenseless...it's child rape...plain and simple.

[me b zola]

140. It has always been by belief

that pedophiles most often *hide* in hetero relationships. It angers & saddens me when I hear misinformed people assume that there is a link to the gay community. I always speak out when this stereotype is mentioned in my presence, but that is not often.

About banning them. Does anyone remember the outstanding lawyer & group that used lawsuits to squelch the KKK in the south? They were highly effective in stopping those bastards. Similar tactics might work well with these predatory creeps as well.

[TO Kid]

192. My take on it is different

I think the reason that gays are more likely to molest children (about 5 times as likely as straights IIRC) is that many are still "in the closet" and believe it's easier to keep kids quiet about it. They think that if they hit on adults then they'll be exposed. More to do with being uncomfortable with their sexuality than their actual preferences.

[tx_dem41]

194. Can you please provide some backup for the claim

that gays are 5 times more likely than heteros to molest children?

[tx_dem41]

195. Self-deleted...posted in wrong place.

Self-deleted...Posted in wrong place.

[TO Kid]

214. I'm basing it on claims from gay-rights advocates

Whenever I hear pro-gay advocates refuting claims about pedophilia they cite statistics that 90% of all child molesters are heterosexual. One can then infer that the other 10% are not hetero. Therefore you have 10% of the child rapists coming from 2% of the population- 10/2=5.

[tx_dem41]

215. Sigh...so can you back up their claim.....

since your claim is based solely on this one. Seems like you would have it handy if you are going to use it in a debate.

[tx_dem41]

216. And then while you are at it....can you support the 2% claim?

This is a popular number usually pulled out of the asses of right-wingers.

[TO Kid]

251. Most research says 2-4%

The most recent one I heard of came from Statistics Canada last year that stated 3.2%. The only major study that showed a substantially different number was from Kinsey, which was debunked ages ago (his subjects were prison inmates).

[tx_dem41]

252. Of course, a link would be nice...since you are the one making...

..the assertion.

[Rockholm]

250. Your answer is a complete lie.

Have no clue where your assertions come from, but man, are they wrong. Sounds like something James Dobson and the Talibornagains would spew.

[barb162]

95. so they are straight old pedophiles, right?

[radwriter0555]

132. They don't march in West Hollywood, you can be sure of that. I've never

seen them represented in ANY gay pride parades.

[jdj]

160. They go to DC every 5 years.

you should check it out sometime.

[sr_pacifica]

177. As a longtime parade-goer

I can vouch for that. They do get booed---usually. One year that I went there was no booing, mostly silence with a few cheers---probably from some fellow pedophiles.

[slackmaster]

254. They've been banned from the San Diego GPP for several years

Pretty much everyone despises them and wishes they'd go away.

[Athame]

91. NAMBLA has been around for years and years

I used to work with a sexual abuse prevention organization in the 80s and was aware of them then, as well as their motto, "Sex before eight or it's too late." I remember they also put out legal aid pamphlets for those who needed them.

Unfortunately the organization is not a faux fiction.

[smirkymonkey]

232. "Sex before eight or it's too late"???

Tell me your kidding.

Do these people actaually think they are doing anything wrong? How do they justify it to themselves? I am really curious as to what makes these whackos tick.

[Renew Deal]

10. How many are freepers?

I'm willing to bet about 7.

[cdb]

27. Damn it!!

You beat me to it!!

[mzmolly]

59. Indeed. We should do some checking.

:shrug:

[Liberal Veteran]

13. Good and good riddance.

I despise that group.

[Skidmore]

14. Tonight, O'Really will be taking personal responsibility

for these arrests and claiming to have cuffed them himself.

Glad they got these creeps though and hope they are put away until they are creakingly ancient.

[Pirate Smile]

15. Sick F#$ks!

[Guckert]

16. Any of them named Sean H. or William O???

Just curious

[slor]

21. Or bush Sr.? n/t

[Walt Starr]

17. How many were Republicans

Republicans tend to like young boys.

[PassingFair]

18. This comes interestingly close to the Shanley sentencing

...where he got 12 - 15 years. Wonder what that is with time off for good behavior?
Shanley was involved with Namba. Think is was a devils bargain? Just a suspicion.

[ClintonTyree]

19. We're the "big tent" party..............

but there's no room in ANYBODY'S tent for these sick bastards. The exploiting of a child is beyond the pale. Prison population has it's own hierarchy, and these guys are on the bottom of the totem pole. They can expect agony to the nth degree there. They'll wish they were dead.

[Guckert]

23. There has to be some "Protest Warriors" in that mix of perverts

I'm sure the party of Morals, Family Values, and the Rule of Law would not have anyone associated with this group. NOT!!!

[ClintonTyree]

48. Plus a man "of the cloth" is involved.................

he'll probably pull a Jimmy Swaggert and cry all over the place to be forgiven. In hell, asshole, in hell. Why does satan tempt these religious men so? :eyes:

[Damien]

22. I was wondering what Jeff Gannon was doing these days...

Hey -- someone had to say it...

[Guckert]

30. Jeff is too busy these days

He is partying with
Newt
Morris
Kerik
Guliani
Jack Ryan
Scarborough
O'Lielly
Rush
Coulter
and the rest of the Morals and Values party

[Damien]

38. ummm...

interesting user name...

"morals and values" party?

sarcasm I'm assuming.

[Guckert]

62. Yes, very much so

I love the fact that the "Party of Morals and Values" has so many adulterous perverts in it that they seem to forget about. Like the hated Liberal Hollywood elite except for Arnold and Reagan etc...

[Sparkle]

25. How can an organization like this exist?

Ever since I started contributed to democratic causes, in the piles of letters asking for donations I remember seeing 1 or 2 letters that had nambla on them. I didn't even open them and ready what they had to say. I tossed it in the trash because I didn't know about that organization. Is this group associated with Democrats? Nambla had to have gotten my address from the DNC.

[Bluebear]

28. God I hope not

I always thought they were some small sick fringe group.

[MADem]

55. Are you sure it wasn't NARAL? Or NORML?

The first one is a pro-choice advocacy group, the second is for reform of cannibis laws. I think the DNC has shared their list with NARAL.

[slestak]

63. Ummm...

Ever since I started contributed to democratic causes, in the piles of letters asking for donations I remember seeing 1 or 2 letters that had nambla on them. I didn't even open them and ready what they had to say. I tossed it in the trash because I didn't know about that organization. Is this group associated with Democrats? Nambla had to have gotten my address from the DNC.

I think you may be confusing NAMBLA with NARAL (National Abortion Rights Action League, I think).

I don't think NAMBLA has any lobbyists working in DC
:crazy:

[girl gone mad]

75. And I seriously doubt that they solicit contributions..

through the mail.

These are creeps of the lowest order. There was a report on Dateline or one of those other clone shows where they took a hidden camera to a Nambla meeting. The whole thing was really shady. They kept changing the meeting place and date because they were paranoid about outsiders finding them out.

Nambla is nothing more than an underground ring of child pornographers and their pedophile clients, if you ask me.

[Sparkle]

77. Whew! I think you're right.

Now that I think about it, I believe it was NARAL. This was really upsetting me. I don't know if it's because repuke callers from cspan associate that group with us (they wish) or what. You and the other poster are right. Thanks for the clarification.

I also want to apologize for the typos in my other post. I need to proof read next time.:-)

[Hell in a Handbasket]

101. good riddance to bad rubbish. the longer people like this are around...

the more the gay community will be stigmatized. it's not fair, but its that way it is.

[msanthrope]

145. "I don't think NAMBLA has any lobbyists working in DC"

But do we know everything about Gannon/Guckert/whatever he calls himself on Wednesdays yet?

:attempt at humor:

[wtmusic]

26. Is this the only issue on which we agree with Republicans?

Just curious...

[LinuxInsurgent]

85. if the issue is

stop child rape and the exploitation of human beings who, by their age, cannot make sound life decisions (like SEX), on the part of pedophiliac men...then hell yes...

I'll join with anyone to stamp out this child rape organization...it's akin to the KKK in my book. Not every organization has a positive message or struggle...and pedophilia and child rape are not causes I want to support.

Fucking boys up the ass is not free speech...it's out of the bounds of common morality that most of the people in the United States believe in.

[Jamastiene]

184. I WOULD have said

that we agreed with them on the issue of rape as well, but I know better now. I am not even sure we agree with them on this issue. They only seem upset when little boys get molested. I think we seem to get equally upset when little girls get molested as well. They only seem to get upset when little boys get molested, because it gives them one of those "I told you so" moments concerning the gay rights issue. They get to say "It's a gay problem. That's why gays shouldn't be allowed around children." In other words, it gives them the perfect opportunity to say all gay people are child molesters, AGAIN.

[Mairead]

29. NAMBLA is (or at least was) for real, and they're despicable

but I can't see what crime these guys committed, unless a thought-crime. They weren't going to commit any act within the US, and Mexican cops apparently weren't involved. So exactly what crime did these guys commit within US jurisdiction? And if 'thinking about' or 'planning a trip with the intention of doing' something illegal is now itself illegal, just what the hell kind of country are we living in?

[Zynx]

34. Sex Tourism was made illegal a couple years ago

If a US national goes overseas to have sex with children, he can be prosecuted under US law.

Nations have jurisdiction over the actions of their nationals. That's a pretty well established principle in international law.

[Mairead]

60. Actually, I believe the principle is that jurisdiction

belongs to the nation in which the offence was committed, not that of the offender. Which is why US citizens can be beheaded in Saudia for an offence that mightn't even be an offence in the US. If I rob a bank in Germany, the US can't put me in prison for it. The Germans can, but the US can't. Or couldn't, at least. Goddess knows what they claim they have the right to do now.

They call this a 'sting' but why isn't what happened here entrapment? Seemingly, the creeps were offered this trip, they didn't solicit its creation ("a sting operation in which each man allegedly paid hundreds of dollars to an undercover agent to arrange the sex, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (search) said during a news conference Monday."). Can you see a half-dozen people spontaneously offering to give some unknown guy--a guy who's, as it were, sitting there on a barstool minding his own business--hundreds of dollars to arrange a sex trip? Nobody thinks 'damn, what if this guy's a cop!'?

[Zynx]

92. Yes, but the US passed a law in addition to that.

It's just like South Africa's anti-mercenary laws, where citizens of South Africa are barred from serving as mercenaries in foreign countries.

Nations don't use this principle of jurisdiction over their nationals much, but it does happen.

[Xithras]

159. Not exactly

The loopholes in that law are amazing. The law specifically deals with underage sexual commerce, and there is some debate over whether it would even apply to people who travel outside of these arranged "sex vacations".

Even if it does apply to them, the law is specific in stating that you have to travel with the intent to engage in underage sexual prostitution. If you're just visiting Thailand and decide to have sex with a 12 year old prostitute on a whim, that's perfectly legal. If you travel to Thailand to have sex with a 12 year old without any exchange of cash, that's legal. If you travel to Thailand to pick up your 12 year old bride, that's legal...as long as you don't bring her back to the US.

It only applies to people who specifically travel with the intent to engage in underage prostitution.

No, I'm not a pervert. My brother in law ran into a little legal problem with his girlfriend a couple of years ago, and I found this website that has the legal age of consent and laws for every state and country on the planet. They had a section on sex tourism, and I read it :)

[mseltzer]

43. And if 'thinking about' or 'planning

a trip with the intention of doing' something illegal is now itself illegal.......

It's called conspiracy to commit an act.

Not exactly a new concept.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

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[Renew Deal]

51. lol

Grovelbot looks good. I like the upgrades.

[da_chimperor]

54. Yes, but do you prefer calf or sheeps brains?

[Burma Jones]

32. Can we send these guys to Guantanamo???????

These fucks deserve torture.............

[Blue_State_Elitist]

45. Okay Bush.

Let's not put them on trial like the law states, let's just send them to be tortured. Fucking draconian.

[David__77]

72. No.

Torture is not called for. There's not even a "ticking time-bomb" justification for such a thing. That's the lynchmob attitude.

[LinuxInsurgent]

87. well...i'm not sure of torture

but they could easily be branded "terrorists"...I'd say they are terroring my kid's ass...

Jokes aside...membership in this organization should be akin to owning kiddie porn...it should be made illegal.

Let them cry "free speech" all they want...there's no way in hell that American society is going to allow organized child rape and pedophilia under the mantle of free speech.

[RobertSeattle]

37. I wonder if the editor's at www.FoxNews.com did this...

Memo To: Hume, O'Reilly, Hannity, Snowe
From: Website Editors

Subject: Approve story for website release.

Can you verify that no medium to high ranking Republicans are listed in this story? If so we'll do the normal "squash". And conversely, if there are any medium to high ranking Democrats list in this story we'll splash this page one for the next 72 hours.

Thanks,

Fox Web Site Editors.

[karlrschneider]

47. I've heard of "NAMBLA" for over 40 years and still don't believe it's a

real "organization"...I think it is an invention of far-right activists to drum up hate for gay people. Oh, I know there are sick people (of both genders) who prey sexually on children, but only the truly insane would affiliate themselves with an actually identified group. I just don't buy it...
:eyes:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

49. Real, unfortunately...

There was a great controversy here in SF years ago over whether or not the group would be allowed to march in the annual Gay Pride event. (On edit: this was when the parade was going more mainstream.)

Most gays and lesbians here in the City were very against their inclusion knowing it would create a "gay = pedophile" perception in the public's mind, something they as a community have been fighting against for years. Other said that NAMBLA was a legitimate queer group that should be afforded the same recognition as other groups. Most of the NAMBLA members I read about at the time were advocating consentual sex with teens in the 16 yo range. (Polk Gulch here in SF is very much like the scene in "My Own Private Idaho".)

If I remember correctly some NAMBLA members did march that year, with one lone fellow (Harry Hay??) following them with a sign that said he supported their inclusion. But NAMBLA has long been absent from the Pride scene here in SF.

Go to here to read about NAMBLA'S history:

http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/nambla.html

[Lady Sonelle]

125. Harry Hay, NAMBLA and CSW: 1986

I believe it was in 1986 at the Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade, run by Christopher Street West.

First a bit of background: Harry Hay was the founder of the Mattachine Society and one of the first people to stand up for gay men's rights. He was a pioneer in the GLBT community and I am pleased and grateful to have called him 'friend'. I knew him during the years when My submissive and I lived in Hollywood, just a block and a half from the Gay History Archives, which Hay was associated with.

In 1986 (If I recall correctly) the Christopher Street West organisers of the Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade was petitioned by NAMBLA organisers for a permit to march in the parade. I believe the permit was denied and NAMBLA decided to march anyway. They dropped in at the rear of the parade. I know this because My partner and I were marching with the leather contingents, Outcasts, Leather and Lace and the Society of Janus, which, also, were at the rear of the parade.

I can tell you that the **hatred** of the crowd toward the NAMBLA marchers was terrifying and hideous! Whether or not you agree with their adovcacy (I do not) they have a RIGHT to "peacably assemble". The Los Angeles Sheriff's Office was overseeing the security (along with LAPD) and they kept back while NAMBLA members were pelted with rocks and bottles. Nice.

Anyway, the next year, NAMBLA asked CSW again and was, again refused. Harry Hay, angry at the way the organisation had been treated (a news organisation had infiltrated a meeting at a library and exposed them on the air, filming their faces and broadcasting the tape!) and since Harry Hay was the parade's guest of honour or Grand Marshall that year, he was to ride on a float up at the front. he argued in favour of NAMBLA's acceptance into the parade and was basically told bu Christopher street West to "shut up and sit down".

Hay was NOT the sort of person to take that lying down! He was in his seventies or eighties at the time, and in frail health, but he was a firebrand. Again NAMBLA marched at the end of the parade and near the leather contingents. Again they were near us. Hay hand lettered a pillowcase with the words "NAMBLA WALKS WITH ME!", cut arm and neck holes, put it on and dropped back to march with us and with the NAMBLA contingent, to the consternation and anger of the CSW organisation.

What happened next was *disgraceful*! The Los Angeles Sheriff's Mounted Detail, charged with keeping the peace of the parade, sent TWO mounted men to literally ride Hay off the street! I was twenty feet away when I saw the men, on horseback, shoulder the frail eighty year old man, who was on foot, violently OFF the parade route on the orders of the Christopher Street West organisation!

The violence and anger of that day stays with Me. I was hit by a flung (full) soda can aimed at a NAMBLA member as I tried to get to Hay to defend him from the horses. My submissive was tripped and hit by rocks and a bottle thrown from the crowd.

Harry Hay was slightly injured and did not finish the parade route, as I recall. I was bleeding from the can-strike on the temple, but we finished the march. I seem to recall Haw was arrested. For walking down the street wearing a pillowcase over his clothing!


WHY were NAMBLA and the leather contingent at the back of the parade? Because Christopher Street West hated BOTH of us! They felt (then) that the Leather Community and NAMBLA "gave Gays a bad name" and we, like NAMBLA, had to petition each year for permission to march in "their" parade.

As I said, folks, I don't give a speckled crap WHAT you *think* of a group's 'agenda'. In fact, the incident caused us to look further INTO the NAMBLA and what we found was NOT what people SAY. But just as in the saying "When they came for the Catholics, I did not stand up because I wasn't a catholic, when they came for the Jews..." etc.
when you REFUSE to protect a group's Constitutional right to SPEECH and ASSEMBLY, you create a DANGEROUS PRECEDENT! I'm not talking about ACTIONS, I'm talking about ADVOCACY!

NAMBLA members have been the focus of repeated stings, entrapments, challenges, hate groups, attacks, phone taps, surveillance and more.
The so-called "slogan" "sex by eight, before it's too late" is NOT NAMBLA at all, it's by the founder of the now defunct Rene Guyon Society and it keeps being quoted because it's so inflammatory. NAMBLA is a Civil Rights organisation, NOT a "child sex ring"!

The abuses of the law which have occurred BY the police and the government AGAINST **ANY** suspected NAMBLA member are egregious!
I heard San Francisco's Postmaster General chortle with glee in 1989 or so at a conference about "eliminating ch*ld p*rn" in the mail. He said that the government sent notices to men who were "suspected" of such activities and then the Post Office told them to "come down to the Post Office and sign a certificate of relinquishment" stating that they didn't want the offending catalog (which didn't exist, BTW) and then, the Postmaster General said "We've GOT him! We can arrest him!"

The audience cheered! When I asked him "But since there IS no catalog, and he is signing a certificate saying he doesn't WANT it, HOW can you arrest him?!" and he said "Because he is admitting that obscene material was mailed to him!"

THAT is the caliber of the offences against people *suspected* of being NAMBLA members!! While I find sex with children LOATHESOME, I find the attacks against ANY group that are carried out in that fashion even WORSE!

I'd be willing to bet EVERYTHING that the so-called "sting" is entrapment and is just the leading edge of similar attacks against gays, the leather community and much more! This time they are coming for the pedos (real or imagined!), next time, it may be US!

Maybe others won't stand up for NAMBLA, as a *civil rights* issue, but I do! Becaue like it or not, THEY are the "miner's canary" and when they fall, so fall the rest of us! That is one of the reasons I keep an eye on them. When they go... WE go! Gays, Lesbians, Leatherfolk, Transgendered, WE'RE NEXT!

I grew UP before Stonewall and I REMEMBER the hatred, the harassment the ENTRAPMENT of homosexuals and lesbians, cross-dressers and others! When I marched in the FIRST Gay Pride march (1973) we wore Halloween masks and paper bags over our heads for fear we would be photographed, identified and jailed! Those who grew up AFTER the Stonewall riots and the civil rights movement don't know how bad it can get! I DO!

Dispicable as they may be, NAMBLA walks with ME! And with EVERY American who fears the suppression of speech and advocacy!

Lady S o n e 1 1 e

[Behind the Aegis]

126. An interesting perspective

You are a living piece of gay history! As a gay man, I appreciate what you have to say. I also found your story very interesting. I am not interested in defending anyone who rapes or abuses children; however, I have seen many misconceptions and outrageous attitudes in this thread. It has been interesting to this thread unfold.

[radwriter0555]

134. Shame on you for defending NAMBLA. They are not a civil rights

organization, how disgusting you make such inane assertions.

For someone to cloak themselves in an allusion of civil rights so that they may prey on small children objectified as sex objects is sickening and perhaps even more perverse than the act of defending sex acts with a child....

You can walk with NAMBLA all you want, but you'll find no quarter here. Shame on you for defending sex with children and cloaking it as civil rights. How hideous. Get some mental therapy and see a psychiatrist.

[Lady Sonelle]

149. Reread My comments!

I ewas NOT defending "preying on children"! I abhor that as well.

I was defending an eighty year old man being ridden off the road Cossack style! If you want to support gestapo tactics against an old man, feel free, but REREAD what I WROTE!

What I am against is the branding of ANY organisation, the idea that the government can go "above the law" to "get" them.
I was there, you were not.

Frankly, I think NAMBLA is **disgusting** but, as I said, and will say again and will KEEP ON saying THEY are the Miners' Canary! Every time we allow the "most disgusting" among us to be illegally driven out of existence, we narrow our OWN freedoms by that much!

Do you think the polizei will be **satisfied** with NAMBLA? NO! alreqady the Federal government has DECLARED that PETA is a "terrorist organisation"! And Earth First as well, and Greenpeace! After they dispose of NAMBLA and PETA, who's next? The ACLU? The Democratic Party?

Freedom is for ADULTS. Freedom is DAMNED HARD to maintain. REAL freedom means standing up for the guys you LOATHE, the guys who would slit your throat, but have a RIGHT to EXIST in an adult society, in a free marketplace of ideas! I would defend Fred PHELPS if the government wanted to drive him out of existence! I HATE the f*ck*ng bastard, but he has the SAME RIGHTS I DO and so does NAMBLA. Like it or not, we are FOUNDED on the principles that our GOVERNMENT does NOT have the right to destroy ANY organisation using illegal tactics!

Have none of you SEEN what "branding" has done to the Democrats?! How many people now cringe and say "I'm not a liberal, I'm a progressive!" ? because "liberal" has been branded, demonised, on its way to being destroyed!

The Patriot II Act has made ANY actions against so-called "terrorists"
LEGAL. And the articles says "SUSPECTED" NAMBLA Members! Do you doubt for an INSTANT that ANYONE they decide the don't like could be "disappeared"?!!

NAMBLA members can rot in Hell and BURN for all I care... BUT the ORGANISATION must be afforded the SAME protections given to the ACLU, the NAACP, the Green Party, the Democratic party and the PTA! BEcause when ONE falls, we ALL are weakened!

GET a clue! It's not about the people, it's about the future of civil dissent and basic Constitutional FREEDOM.

Lady S o n e 1 1 e

[TheWraith]

166. Congratulations.

You just demonstrated why the word 'liberal' has been demonized.

Sexual assault of children is illegal. Child pornography is illegal. Trafficking in either is even more illegal. I'm happy to back the feds in arresting anyone who commits any of these crimes. And I agree with them that membership in an organization dedicated to the principle of child sexual abuse is grounds for suspicion of same. It's no different than considering a member of the KKK to be a potential suspect for hate crimes. And it's not at all the same as Bush's lapdogs calling PETA terrorists. NAMBLA, the KKK, and similar groups have a long history of criminal activity and no legitimate purpose. PETA is a legitimate and largely peaceful protest organization with no history of institutionalized crime. No, the government can't break the law in going after groups like NAMBLA, but I see no reason why they can't enforce the laws. Or is enforcing laws morally wrong? The next link in your chain of logic would seem to be that NAMBLA types have a right to practice their beliefs.

Given the content of your posts, I'm not going to bother shooting down the rest of the nutty shit you're talking. Suffice to say, you've been greatly offensive to genuine civil rights groups, you've equated NAMBLA and the Democratic Party, and you've probably pissed off a vast number of gay people who in no way want to be told that they're equal to child molesters.

[livinginphotographs]

189. Well said.

Belonging to a group that promotes an unpopular opinion in no way should be considered a crime.

Belonging to a group that openly advocates criminal activity should definitely be a crime. You think NAMBLA meetings are for fellow child molestors to sit around, eat cookies, and dream of the day that they will freely be able to molest children? NO! These organizations exist to put child molestors in touch with other child molestors so they can trade kiddie porn and figure out ways to diddle children. Conspiracy is a crime, and these people (from what I've read in the article) were arrested for a legitimate offense.

What if there was an organization that promoted raping women? What if there was an organization promoting the assassination of the US President (Bush or otherwise)? Would that be considered a civil rights organization?

Sorry, I'm more arguing with the poster above you, but I just can't believe someone would even attempt to defend these bastards.

[KissMeKate]

209. how dare you smear the leather community with NAMBLA's filth.

you should be ashamed of yourself.

NAMBLA advocates raping children.

child rape is not a civil right, and the leather community has NOTHING in common with pathetic boy buggerers. Sm is about CONSENSUAL activity!

Just because YOU chose to stand up for NAMBLA in a parade used by Pat Robertson to smear the rest of us, doesnt mean the leather community has some sort of bond with NAMBLA.

We do not have a co agenda, we are not comrades in arms, and if you march with NAMBLA, you DESERVE everything coming to you.

[KissMeKate]

210. Furthermore, NAMBLA is NOT a "civil rights organisation", as you said!

people like you make it possible for child rapists to exist.

Anyone who defends the child rape organisation NAMBLA should be strung up from the nearest tree along with the child rapists themselves.

[90-percent]

52. nambla

It was so unthinkable 10 to 20 years ago that neocon facists would take over the USA.

Having observed all that, it wouldn't suprise me to see fringies like nambla take over the WH in 20 or 30 years.

If the fascists can do it, anybody can!

-85%

(for the record, I'm against sex crimes against children)

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

57. And you registered to tell us that story?

[Misunderestimator]

79. Must have been a good one.

[silvermachine]

61. All too real...

...a number of years back they tried to have meetings at a local library and if I recall, attempted to have the ACLU intervene when they were refused permission by the library. I could be mistaken about the ACLU part.

[rayofreason]

64. NAMBLA is real...

...unfortunately. Google "nambla" and the site comes right up. Before the web they had a newsletter. They have been around for a long time.

You may think it is mad to advertise in this way, to join an organization whose ethos is held with disgust by almost everyone, but it happens nonetheless. It really is amazing what some people will do and feel justified in doing (a fact of human nature that will come as no surprise to people on this site, I am sure).

These guys can promulgate whatever ideas they want, and do so with impunity under the 1st amendment. In a state not ruled by law based on individual liberty, they would be arrested and imprisoned or killed simply for advocating their positions (such as Nazi Germany - no rule of law, or Saudi Arabia - rule of law that recognizes the sovereignty of Allah, not the individual). Here we have to wait until they do something.

It is unconscionable to allow these abuser wannabees to actually commit the crime, and traumatize a boy, so I applaud the efforts of law enforcement to set up sting operations. That way the NAMBLAites can commit a crime without a child getting hurt, and we can put them away.

[NYC]

107. Today is the first time I have ever heard NAMBLA associated with

gay men. I have always heard they were an organization of pedophiles, and never ever heard them referred to as gay.

[tx_dem41]

108. Where have you heard this reference? I don't believe the word..

..."gay" or "homosexual" has appeared in any of the news stories. Are you talking about hearing the reference on this forum?

[NYC]

111. Yes, on this forum.

A few posters mentioned that NAMBLA could be used to smear gay people. I had never heard any such references otherwise.

I have heard people express fears that homosexuals may be pedophiles, but I have never heard pedophiles referred to as gay.

[Roaming]

152. Well, it's called the Man-BOY love association, (not man-GIRL)

so I guess that qualifies as gay -- on edit, it's gay pedophilia as opposed to heterosexual pedophilia... both of which are disgusting.

[NYC]

161. I understand what you are saying,

but to me it is just plain pedophilia regardless of the victim's gender.

Adults have gay relationships; pedophiles prey on children.

[Red State Rebel]

141. It's not only real, it's currently being defended by the ACLU

if I'm not mistaken. I wish the ACLU would pick it's battles a little more carefully.

[Nashvilliberal]

157. That's why the ACLU is so valuable.

They are the counterweight, defending the rights of even the most despised against the tyranny of the masses. Who else would defend NAMBLA -and- Rush Limbaugh? I don't always like the causes they defend, but I donate anyway, because they don't pick cases based on popularity, and they force the courts to decide based on rule of law.

[sr_pacifica]

179. Nope

There are actually people who believe that love between boys and men can exist. And they want society to accept that which they consider a reality. Never mind an inequality in power being at the root of a relationship between a mature man and a growing, economically-dependent boy.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

56. GOOD!

Throw ... away ... the ... key!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

66. How can an organization like this be allowed to exist and recruit?

How big is this organization, and why is it not shut down? Does it exist to act on its desires? Or does it fall under first amendment protection? I don't think that this was entrapment. The men were going to try and have sex with children, right?

At the same time, the rest of America can't pretend that all evil against the innocence of children is from NAMBLA. There is no denying that "normal" Americans are just as capable as the disgusting ideas NAMBLA promote; children as sex objects. IMHO, people that encourage little girls to dress up in skimpy clothes, thongs or anything like that are almost as dangerous to children as NAMBLA members.

[Dookus]

68. it's allowed

because of the protections for free speech and free assembly.

Discussing sex with children is not a crime.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

69. You're right, I apologize.

Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are some of the most important things we have, double edged though they may be.

I resent that NAMBLA is always focused in on the Man/Boy part. That has nothing to do with it. It's the age alone. People act with disgust towards NAMBLA, myself included. However, I have never seen the same outrage for males who have sex with young girls.

[Djinn]

121. it's an interesting point that one

I have never seen the same outrage for males who have sex with young girls.

legally there isn't the same outrage either - that's why many nations have different ages of consent for straight and gay sex.

In Victoria (Aust) it is legal for a female to have sex at the age of 12 as long as the male partner is no more than 2 years older than her, after the age of sixteen the female can sleep with anyone she likes of any age.

Gay guys have to wait until they're 18 before the law agrees they are able to make this decision for themselves - all based in the "preadatory gay male" meme.

There was a push here a while back to have the age of consent made the same for males/females/gay/straight folk but I'm nt sure if it ever got anywhere.

NAMBLA are something else entirely though - although you'd think if your predilection was illegal you wouldn't join a group promoting it, wouldn't any smart paedophile publically avoid them??

[LinuxInsurgent]

89. The First AMendment has limits--HOW TO BAN NAMBLA

The First Amendment has limits...and those limits have been consensually agreed upon.

Most speech is protected...but hate speech, threatening the President, and certain forms of public pornography are not allowed...so there is precedent for limiting free speech (on this I disagree with ACLU, whose libertarian views on free speech are broader).

Organized Child Rape and Pedophilia (which is what NAMBLA stands for) can easily be banned...and there's legal precedent to consider their actions a security concern for the State. You can do it under the pornography clause...but if you really want to hit them up, you can argue that since their organization SPECIFICALLY targets individuals who are dependents (people under 18), that their existence constitutes a security concern for the State (and its under 18 citizens, which it is obligated to protect).

With that legal argument, we can ban the organization because its sole mission is the deliberate and planned sexual exploitation of under-18 dependents (all who are dependents of a parent/guardian/State custody). Their existence is as equally dangerous as the presence of serial rapists or murderers at large (none who can argue that their free speech has been violated because their rapes and murderers were not allowed by the State!)....they constitute an ever-present danger to the rights of individuals (the under-18 year old citizens of the U.S.) and to society's morals (as interpreted by the Judges).

The free speech argument doesn't apply...because it's not speech that is in question, but planned actions and outcomes (child rape/pedophilia). There is enough evidence available to a Court to merit the judgment that NAMBLA's existence is not related to politically-protected speech, but to specifically target the sexual innocence of dependents of the State...thus, they constitute a Security Concern. The State has ample grounds to consider NAMBLA's free speech appeals to be irrelevant...and the Security Concern PREEMINENT.

If you want to ban Nambla, launch a class-action lawsuit on behalf of parents/guardians who fear for their children being accosted by NAMBLA members outside of their presence. The Courts and Legislatures would be obligated to address the legitimate concern of parent/guardian citizens...and their dependents...and NAMBLA members would be hard pressed to argue that their "free speech" (advocacy and planning of child rape and pedophilia, as defined by our laws), is being trampled upon.

You have been armed, DU...now go for it!

[Redstone]

102. Well, God damn, LinuxInsurgent...

I'm impressed. Seriously.

Here are the rest of us, myself included, venting an (understandable) revulsion regarding these monsters, and you come up with a well-thought-out strategy to actually do something about them. And the damndest part about it is...your plan would very likely work.

I stand in awe. I salute you.

Redstone

[tx_dem41]

104. I'm not going to buy the argument.

There are laws existing against the ACTIVITY. And, in fact, the enforcement of these laws are what stopped these men from committing the act. I believe the association with this group without ACTIVITY is a First Amendment issue.

So, I don't see where LinuxInsurgent is really proposing anything that isn't already on the books. I don't believe that association with this group or any other distasteful group, by itself, should be enough for prosecution. Illegal activities as a result of this association on the other hand is definitely prosecutable (which is what is happening now).

[mordarlar]

144. Iinux..Yahoo has INCREDIBLY disturbing titles on it's user chat rooms...

I wrote to them complaining and was told they claim no responsibility. These things would fall under the free speech limits you spoke of correct?

8-12 yr old girls likes older guys
5-13 kiddies who love sex
MOMMY HELPS BOYS MASTERBATE

I see this shit and i WANT TO DO HARM. This cannot be LEGAL. Can this be stopped?

[tx_dem41]

146. You can certainly complain, but simply naming a chat room is not

illegal in the eyes of the law. I believe that is definitely a freedom of speech issue.

[smirkymonkey]

67. Anyone see the South Park episode on NAMBLA?

Sick, but funny.

[0007]

249. It did have a message, eh?

[tx_dem41]

74. FWIW, the dentist from Dallas who was arrested was my dentist....

it was quite a shock this morning reading the news and seeing his face on TV.

I do know that neither I nor my wife had any foreshadowing of these events. He was a good dentist and displayed a fairly "normal" personality. I feel sorry for his two kids and his staff. It was a professionally run office, and I hope the staff does not get ruined by this. I'm sure they feel awful.

Anyone know a good dentist in Dallas?

[Straight Shooter]

76. And now his staff might be looking for jobs?

Bummer. Pedophiles have no idea how many people they hurt, even when they think they're getting away with it.

A pox on the members of NAMBLA.

[tx_dem41]

78. I'm sure they are looking for jobs. He was the only dentist. n/t

[Selteri]

80. Good, I hope they live long, miserable lives in prison

as punching bags.

[driver8]

128. They will be very popular in prison...but not as punching bags.

Let us just say that "their dance cards are going to be full."

[Catholic Sensation]

188. they're going to get murdered in prison

they won't be dancing, pedophiles are the lowest of the low among criminals and if word gets out they're in for hurting children, they're dead.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

81. Today in other news, a 12 year old gets sentenced as an adult for murder

but if NAMBLA fingered him he's just a kid...nothing ironic about that...oh yeah and I am glad these people were caught..I just wish the definition of what is a minor weren't such a moving target based on the circumstance.

[NorthernSpy]

138. I noticed that too...

Once upon a time, Britain hanged pickpocketing children from the tender age of seven. We aren't quite that awful nowadays, but still: pedophiles aren't the only people who treat children as adults when it serves their purpose; these "law-n-order" types do that too.

[LinuxInsurgent]

82. MANBOY association...

oh my god...how do these organizations even get the legitimacy to get beyond 2 people....

These people are perverts...

[Bluebear]

84. They have NO legitimacy

None, zero, zip, nada.

[bush_is_wacko]

86. Any one important? What kind of sick people do this to children?

aren't there enough consenting adult males for them?

[Djinn]

122. because they're not attracted to adult males

hence the general description of "peadophile" - the idea that male/male peadophilia has anything to do with consenting adult sex is dangerous and wrong.

there are plenty of peadophiles who only abuse females, there are those that abuse only males, there are those that aern't so fussy and there are plenty of FEMALE peadophiles as well.

the number of consenting adults "available" is totally irrelavant to someone who is attracted to CHILDREN

[radwriter0555]

135. Men who are sexually attracted to children are seriously mentally ill.

They have serious inadequacy issues and are unable to control the impulse to dominate and injure children via the action of sex. They're the weakest and sickest of all perverts.

[bush_is_wacko]

88. Oh shit! i didn't see it was a FAUX news story! you can't beleive a word

of what these idiots print! I take back my earlier post!

[tx_dem41]

90. The same facts are being reported elsewhere....

...I don't see a FAUX slant on this one.

[bush_is_wacko]

93. I don't support child molesters but I'm not sure our media and our govern

ment doesn't regularly stage these events to keep the "homosexual" issue alive! Fundies don't seem to be able to see the difference from a child molesters and homosexuals, you know?

[tx_dem41]

97. Well, one of the seven men arrested was my dentist...

so I will have a unique perspective on whether the story is true or not. I will definitely be following it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

98. Im not sure it's staged, but it is kept up because it is used for anti-gay

purposes. NAMBLA members are far and away hated more than men who have sex with underage girls. There is a double standard there. They tried to sell thong underwear for 7 year old girls. Can you imagine if they tried that for boys?

[d.l.Green]

116. Not only is it used to churn up anti-gay sentiments, but it's effective in

causing even those of us who are gay, and not pedophiles, to be cautious in our observed interactions with others' children. I've discussed this with other gay friends of mine and it's remarkable how such pap affects our personal lives. The connection is malicious and hypocritical(as in your reference to the double standard- as if there should be any standard). And as another poster noted above it certainly doesn't help our constant efforts to blend comfortably into society with NAMBLA so recklessly latching on to a movement that has nothing to do with them. Caution is always warranted with children and single people, and it just so happens that gay people are niched into being single even if they're in healthy relationships.

[tx_dem41]

119. Good, strong post d.l.

Thanks for posting it.

[Beaverhausen]

94. here is another story about it. it is true

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20050215/lo_wesh/2587019

[MrSlayer]

99. Good, these scumbags should be executed.

Pedos are the lowest forms of life and have no redeemable value.

[tx_dem41]

100. Well, I don't believe in giving this Government that power....

if its bloodlust you're after, a long time in prison will be hell for them.

[MrSlayer]

105. Not when they get special protection.

If they just threw them in Gen Pop with a sign on their back I'd be OK with it. But these sleazebags get put in protective custody where they are relatively safe. Execution is better.

[tx_dem41]

106. Can you show me some proof about "special protection"?

I know in Texas there is no such special protection. And, as I remember it didn't help Dahmer in Wisconsin either.

Again, I am against the death penalty for all cases for two reasons: the fallibility of the justice system, and because, philosophically I don't want Government to have that power.

[MrSlayer]

109. I've read it in several books about prison.

"You're going to prison", "The Hot House" and several others talk about PC or Protective Custody. It's where they put cops that go afoul of the law and people like child molesters who are in great danger from inmates in general population. It's true and it's wrong.

[tx_dem41]

110. Well, not to keep sounding like ...

a bleeding heart liberal :-) , but its the Government's responsibilty to protect everyone while they are in Government custody.

[MrSlayer]

112. That's why they should execute them.

They aren't worthy of protection and do not suffer for their heinous crimes.

[tx_dem41]

114. We will have to agree to disagree...

after the last 4 years, I have learned to not believe in the infallibility of the Government.

[MrSlayer]

115. So when they catch these guys red handed it's not enough?

There was a story the other day about a guy who was having sex with a 9 year old girl on internet camera. There is nothing to be fallible about in that case. He was caught on tape doing it, there is no question of his guilt. He should be taken out and shot like the dog he is. When it comes to the death penalty, if the case is open and shut, I see no reason for endless appeals and have no concern about who carries out the sentence.

[siliconefreak]

163. So much for civil liberties...

"He should be taken out and shot like the dog he is"

I'm so glad that the majority of Democrats don't think like you. You must be a big fan of Democrats like Zell Miller.

[MrSlayer]

170. Hmmm, hating pedophiles equates to liking Zell Miller?

How the hell do you make that leap of logic? I think there are certain things you can do to forfeit your rights. Raping pre-pubescent children qualifies in my opinion. Sorry, but I stand by my statement. They aren't deserving of any rights or protection, they are the lowest form of scum on Earth and should be put down. What would you do if it was your kid getting repeatedly ass raped by some sleazebag? What would you want done? Think about it.

[siliconefreak]

175. yeah, right

I would probably want to kill that person, but I don't think we should impose our own irrational responses and beliefs on an entire society. I guess I'll assume that you are pro-death penalty.

You know, there are still LOTS of people who believe that gays "aren't deserving of any rights or protection" and that they are the "lowest form of scum on Earth and should be put down".

Try to use rational logic rather than just spewing out your angry thoughts when something bothers you, even if it disturbs you as much as this situation obviously does.

[MrSlayer]

178. I feel sorry for those who believe that way about gay people.

But that sort of belief isn't born of rationality anymore than the Aryan groups who think everyone should be killed except their own. Anyone with sense can differentiate between two adults of the same sex in a mutual relationship and adults manipulating, raping and torturing children. I disagree with you. There is no bringing pedophiles under the protection of gay rights, it's an insult to gays. They are mutually exclusive. One is clearly a fact of life, acceptable to anyone with a brain and normal and the other is clearly an unacceptable heinous crime.

[siliconefreak]

197. FINE

I will never believe that the death penalty or torture is an appropriate punishment for anyone, under any circumstances. You seem to believe that it's okay. We disagree. Fine.

[MrSlayer]

199. Ok fine with me as well.

Have a nice day. :)

[tx_dem41]

201. I don't see where the poster was talking about bringing pedophiles..

under the protection of gay rights. They were responding to the majority idea on this thread that pedophiles should be removed from the rights afforded them by the Constitution. That's neither defending pedophiles or insulting gays. Its defending the Constitution.

[Djinn]

123. "protective" custody

is a bit of a myth really - the guards hate the pervs at much as anyone and it's easy as piss to get them to leave a door open - half the time you wont even need to offer a bribe.

[MrSlayer]

172. It would be comforting to think that.

But I've read several accounts from correctional officers and I have enough friends that did time to know that PC is very real for the "Chesters". Raping children is way over my line of death worthy crimes.

[Djinn]

224. I can guarantee you that PC

does not protect anyone if other prisoners want to attack them bad enough

[Fleshdancer]

103. I'll be wishing for prison justice on these animals

How can anyone look at a child and seriously think rape is even an option?? I don't get it.

[Djinn]

124. I don't know how anyone can wish rape on anyone either

I'm not defending the NAMBLA nuts I hope they go to jail forever and I'm not defending paedophiles in general, but I do find the amount of people who think rape is an acceptable form of punishment a tad disturbing.

[tx_dem41]

129. Very disturbing, I agree....

but it kind of proves the point that its a crime of power and violence (read revenge) and not sex.

[Fleshdancer]

142. I wasn't talking about rape as punishment....

I was actually hoping they'd get their asses kicked while in prison. Not very nice of me, I know, but it's impossible for me to feel sorry for pedophiles.

[CornField]

113. I have no mercy

When I banned one of them from posting on a local BB I was running, he informed me that he liked them "so young he could hear the bones break." Had we been face to face he probably would have heard a few of his own bones breaking. Sick bastard.

[Megahurtz]

206. OMG!!!

:puke:

[eissa]

236. SICK!

Ugh, my stomach just turned.....what filthy perverts. How could anyone enjoy doing that to a child?!

[elshiva]

117. NAMBLA is a terrible institution,

that should NEVER be allowed in gay pride day EVER! I am not proud of NAMBLA and their use of young boys. They give a bad name to all queers in monogamous, ADULT relationships. Bust NAMBLA, not gays!

[truebrit71]

118. I'm sorry, but why aren't all of these pervs in jail ALREADY?

Entrapment or not they were paying to have sex with KIDS!!!! This isn't some dumb john getting caught with his pants around his ankles trying to have it off with some dodgy boiler...these were adult men looking to get it on with KIDS!!!

Sick bastards... :grr:

[autorank]

127. Yeah, we have f'ing RICO to go after anybody for anything.

:wtf: has taken Federal law envorcement so long (since 1978) to nail these clowns. I just don't understand why the whole group wasn't rolled up?

[rugger]

130. I thought NAMBLA was made up on South Park

[Ian David]

133. I don't know if anything helpful might come of these google searches

"Steve West" and Guckert OR "Jeff Gannon"
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=%22Steve+West%22+and+Guckert+OR+%22Jeff+Gannon%22

"Sam Lindblad" and Guckert OR "Jeff Gannon"
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=%22Sam+Lindblad%22+and+Guckert+OR+%22Jeff+Gannon%22

Etc., etc.....


The seven arrested included:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,147645,00.html

Sam Lindblad, 56, of Albuquerque, N.M.;

Gregory Mark Nusca, 43, of Dania Beach, Fla., also known as David R. Busby or Steven West;

Steven K. Irvin, 46, of Pittsburgh, a special education teacher at Carrick High School

Richard Stutsman, 59, of Seneca, S.C., a substitute teacher for a school district in Oconee County;

Phillip Todd Calvin, 43, of Dallas;

David Cory Mayer, 49, of Chicago, a flight attendant;

Paul Ernest Zipszer, 39, of Deltona, Fla.

[Andy_Stephenson]

131. Good Damned Deal...

I hope they enjoy their new roles as "bitches" in prison.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[radwriter0555]

143. And you felt the need to use the abusive term for VAGINA to describe them?

How very adult and grown up of you.

[HughBeaumont]

148. Gee, I'm SO distraught that I don't meet your standards of maturity!

REALLY I am. Can't you tell?

:eyes:

[radwriter0555]

150. Anyone who uses the word "cunt' isn't mature and has

little thought for their own actions, much less any respect for women.

[NorthernSpy]

151. and since pedophilic "sex tourism" is an exclusively male pursuit...

... using female terms ("cunt") to refer to these men seems especially incongruous and kind of unfair to women, on top of being offensive.

[radwriter0555]

153. Yes. Amazingly offensive actually... and again merely displaying marked

immaturity and disrespect, in addition to not being cognizant about one's own self....

[Djinn]

158. actually no it isn't

there are mnay women paedophiles (much less reported of course because it goes against the myth that women are inherently nuturing) and they ARE involved in sex tourism - just ask the Thai police

[TheWraith]

168. Very very true.

The reporting rate for female pedophiles is nearly zero. It's thought of as being impossible that women would sexually abuse anyone, let alone children, but it's almost as common as male predators.

[Djinn]

171. particularly in familial abuse situations

mothers/aunties etc are just as likely to be abusers as fathers/uncles. It's often not reported for the same reason many men do not report being raped, there is the idea that if a women attacks you should be able to defend yourself (even if you're a child) just like men "should" be able to fight back.

[NorthernSpy]

186. Baloney!

The reporting rate for female pedophiles is nearly zero. It's thought of as being impossible that women would sexually abuse anyone, let alone children, but it's almost as common as male predators.

So, despite the glaringly obvious lack of evidence for your claim, we should ignore everything we know about the demographics of pedophiles and accept this asinine proposition of yours purely on your say-so?

:eyes:

[TheWraith]

213. You obviously don't know nearly as much as you think you do.

And it's tirades like this, attacking the very concept of female child molesters, that keeps the stereotype in place.

If you want to get a feel for the real world, try talking to the people on the ground. Councilors, therapists, and anyone else who works with child sexual abuse victims will tell you that female perpetrators are quite common. Studies and official statistics can't tell you much, because they're based on reported cases, and--as I've explained--the reporting rate for female pedos is almost nonexistant. In large part it's due to the same preconceptions that make it nearly impossible to report a male rape victim. It's the belief that either it's impossible, "just doesn't happen", or that he must have enjoyed it. I suspect that if these sterotypes were applied to women, you'd be having an apoplectic fit.

I have personally seen four pedophiles in my life. Two were male, two were female. Of those four, one--one of the females--was also a trafficker in child pornography, and another--the other female--selected ME as one of her chosen targets. Yet, to hear you talk, it's all my imagination, and I'm crazy to view women as anything other than pure innocence.

[NorthernSpy]

218. the "tirade" is all yours, buddy...

... you're the one posting tirades -- not me.

If you want to get a feel for the real world, try talking to the people on the ground. Councilors, therapists, and anyone else who works with child sexual abuse victims will tell you that female perpetrators are quite common.

Yeah, and a few years ago "counselors, therapists, and anyone else who works with child sexual abuse victims" were regaling us with horror stories about Satanic Cult Ritual Child Sexual Abuse. And quite a few people who were accused of Satanic Cult Ritual Child Sexual Abuse got sent to prison on the testimony of easily-led minors and child abuse "experts".

Those prosecutions are now dissolving, and people who never should have been put away are finally getting relief from the courts. But the fact remains that despite the Constitutional guarantee of due process, an honest-to-gawd witch hunt happened right here in modern America.

So thanks, but I'll stick with the verifiable evidence on this subject.



(fixed typo)

[Djinn]

241. Jeez obnoxious much

I see bugger all eveidence to back up YOUR assertion that sex tourism is a purely MALE activity - could that be because it's a BULLSHIT claim?

No people shouldn't do ANYTHING on my say so - I don't beleive I came close to even suggesting anything of the sort - what is a REALLY bad idea though is to spread the myth that this is a male only crime - way to make the victims of female abuse feel even MORE intimidated.

I think you need to calm down a bit - you may give yourself a stroke at this rate

[NorthernSpy]

187. puhleeze!

there are mnay women paedophiles (much less reported of course because it goes against the myth that women are inherently nuturing) and they ARE involved in sex tourism - just ask the Thai police

Oh, I see: contrary to all the available evidence, this is true because you say it's true. And I needn't ask you to prove what you say, since the numbers don't exist -- and they don't exist, it seems, only because nobody believes your claim in the first place. How's that for circularity?

This is a big world, and you can just about always find at least one example of anything you might imagine. But I'm on firm ground when I say that female pedophilia is extremely rare.

[livinginphotographs]

190. Funny how I know several sexual abuse victims...

The majority of whom were abused by women. Sometimes multiple women within their own family.

Guess I'm just one of those statistical anomaly magnets.

Just one question: how will the statistics exist if the point the OP is making is that these crimes go unreported?

[NorthernSpy]

222. after Satanic Ritual Sexual Abuse and Recovered Memory Syndrome...

...I think it's pretty reasonable to be anecdote-shy and proof-demanding.

Funny how I know several sexual abuse victims The majority of whom were abused by women. Sometimes multiple women within their own family.

Guess I'm just one of those statistical anomaly magnets.

Just one question: how will the statistics exist if the point the OP is making is that these crimes go unreported?

Well, let's see... Persons arrested for buying kiddie porn are overwhelmingly men. Persons convicted of molesting children are overwhelmingly men. The people who conspired to go on this little MolestFest holiday in Mexico? All fellas -- to everyone's complete shock, I'm sure.

The hormones that are prescribed for some molesters to curb the urge to reoffend? Female hormones.

Now, on the other side, women were indeed frequently accused of sexually abusing children during the Satanic Cult Ritual Child Sexual Abuse hysteria, as well as during its sister plague, the "Recovered Memory" fiasco. And we all know how those things turned out...

I'll take verifiable evidence over anyone's say-so, any day.

[livinginphotographs]

240. Believe whatever the fuck you want.

I just think it's pretty offensive to be so dismissive of the many people who were abused by women.

But since you obviously have some unrelated agenda (god forbid someone say something bad about women) I probably won't change your mind.

Glad to know that my mom's a liar. :eyes:

[Djinn]

246. she's not alone

I just think it's pretty offensive to be so dismissive of the many people who were abused by women.

But since you obviously have some unrelated agenda (god forbid someone say something bad about women) I probably won't change your mind.

Glad to know that my mom's a liar. :eyes:

seems there's an awful lot of us lying types!

[livinginphotographs]

248. And as for the poster who started this bullshit....

Curiously MIA. Hmmmm...

[livinginphotographs]

242. Oh, and you forgot to answer my question

between your bouts of snotty indignation.

How the hell is the poster supposed to back his claims up with statistics when his entire point is that most of these cases go unreported?

[Djinn]

245. what verifiable evidence

you keep banging on about that and then provide ZIP.

You state that buyers of kiddie porn are overwhelming men - you state no evidence for that but it certainly wouldn't surprise me at all but it proves NOTHING. Men in general buy more (legal) porn than women too - it doesn't follow that out of all those having sex are overwhelmingly men - it suggests a well known fact - men are more likely to be aroused by visual stimulation - no shit sherlock

Person's convicted - YES bingo - female abuse MASSIVELY underreported, when it IS reported it's harder to get to court, when and if it goes to court juries often refuse to convict men because they are under the same misapperhension that you seem to be under - ie that women don't do this.

Hey black people get convicted of crimes proportionally WAY more than white folks...guess that must prove black people are more likely to committ crimes :eyes:

hormones to stop re-offending dear oh dear you really don't understand this issue at all do you - speak to an endocrinologist and get back to us - specifically ask what the hormones do.

"The people who conspired to go on this little MolestFest holiday in Mexico? All fellas"

hahahhahahahaha - but you don't like anecdotal stories right.

[Djinn]

243. can you read?

You are NOT on firm ground when you say that at all. I didn't say people need to beleive me because I say so - couldn't give a flying fanny if you beleive me or not.

You are completely and 100% wrong in asserting that sex tourism is a male only pursuit but yet you feel OK posting that with zero evidence?

Female peadophilia is not and never has been extremely rare - I suggest you get a clue as to what you'er talking about.

You could start with like I suggested the Thai police they will tell you ALL about both female sex tourist AND a large number of women who organise said tours.

Could YOU perhaps provide the proof to back up YOUR claim given you were the one making the original assertion.

If possible it'd be nice if you could do it without instantly screeching and getting narky.

[Megahurtz]

147. Ugh!The NAMBLA child rapists

I'm glad that now the other inmates can deal with them.
Sleazy putrid slime.:evilfrown:

[NorthernSpy]

154. Man is wolf to Boy

Eight affluent white men conspiring to commit sexual battery on some brown kids in a poor country...

This wasn't a one-time incident, either. The news stories about this mention that some of these men had gone on similar trips in the past.

Apparently, they just take it for granted that those who are nonwhite and poor are of so little importance to anyone and therefore probably merit so little protection that committing even the most obscene abuses against them might well be worth the risk. I can imagine them doing the calculations: probably just street kids, no one's looking after them... it won't piss off anyone who matters... and those local authorities are total crooks -- a little pay-off, and everything's fine...


On top of their other sins, NAMBLA seems kind of racist.

[AWhitneyBrown]

155. NAMBLA does a lot to stop child abuse.

However it may have started, it seems pretty obvious that it's basically a sting organization for law enforcement. I doubt I'm giving away any secrets guess that most members are probably cops. They troll for not very bright molesters, and find them. Then they bust them, as in the story above. Sounds fine to me.

[siliconefreak]

162. I'm disappointed

It's very disappointing to read the majority of comments here. If an adult can't control his or her desire to have sex with kids, don't you think that maybe that individual needs serious therapy? Remarks such as "they need to be tortured" or "I hope they die" sound a LOT like the comments I've read at the Free Republic site.

I've seen much less hostile reactions to news stories of children being murdered. I guess many of you believe that its less of a crime to murder an underage individual than it is to have sex with him or her.

[Nashvilliberal]

167. You cannot "have sex" with a child. That implies consent.

And without consent, it's rape.

How about this? If guilty, I hope they're punished to the full extent of the law. And, while in prison, I expect their experiences there will help them to more fully be able to empathize with their victims as to how it feels to be powerless against abuse by a much stronger sexual predator. That sounds like appropriate therapy to me.

[siliconefreak]

173. an eye for an eye, huh?

How civilized. I guess you're also pro-death penalty. Hell, why not bring back firing squads so murderers can find out what it "feels like" to be shot.

And for you to twist my words ("to have sex") into your own interpretation is wrong. That's the same tactic that religious fanatics use to advocate their agendas.

[Nashvilliberal]

183. There is an indisputable difference between "have sex" and "rape."

To say that they "have sex" with children severely minimizes the depravity of the act; these children are raped. I don't share your pity for these "poor tortured souls." To join an organization like NAMBLA, and plan trips to Mexico, where they'll be able to prey on powerless children without having to answer to the authorities suggests a calculated premeditation, not a temporary giving-in to an unwanted desire.

Following the logic of your original post, no one is responsible for their actions. Thieves can't resist the temptation to steal. Murderers can't resist the temptation to kill. They need therapy, not jail.

I strongly disagree.

BTW, you write that I'm pro-death penalty. Who's twisting the words of whom?

[smirkymonkey]

239. After doing some surfing on the topic, what seems to differentiate

the NAMBLA types from the run-of-the mill child molester, is their conviction that THE CHILD DESIRES THEM TOO!!

From the NAMBLA website:

"It is quite difficult to lay down barriers it could be that the child, with his own sexuality, may have desired the adult."
~ Michel Foucault, philosopher, speaking against "age-of-consent" laws

"In those cases where children do have sex with their homosexual
elders... I submit that often, very often, the child desires the
activity, and perhaps even solicits it, either because of a natural
curiosity... or because he or she is homosexual and innately know it.
... And unlike girls or women forced into rape or traumatized, most
gay men have warm memories of their earliest and early sexual
encounters; when we share these stories with each other, they are
invariably positive ones."
- Larry Kramer, writer and founder of the AIDS Coalition to Unleash
Power (ACT-UP), in Reports from the Holocaust (New York: St. Martin's
Press, 1991)

"...in cases of mutual consent and mutual sexual attraction, sexual
activity itself seems to produce no damaging
effects. It is to be hoped that this may put parents' minds at rest
and help them to avoid being unnecessarily upset and anxious."
- Dr. Preben Hertoft, eminent Copenhagen sexologist, "Introduction:
Paedophiles Don't Hurt Children" in Crime Without Victims (Amsterdam:
Global Academic Publishers, 1993)

I'm sorry, but these people seem truly delusional. I believe they are projecting thier own desire onto the children they exploit, and using academic/philosophical arguments to justify it. I don't care how fucking intelligent you are, pedophilia is still sick and should be punishable by law.

[Megahurtz]

169. Here's some therapy:

Lop it ALL OFF, castrate the WHOLE PACKAGE.
Then they won't have their demented, hormone-induced urges anymore. And if they do, oh well!:evilfrown:

[siliconefreak]

174. sure

and if someone lies, cut out his tongue.

[livinginphotographs]

191. That has nothing to do with the point of castration.

Chemical castration is a great option, IMO.

Preventing someone from re-offending is not the same as "an eye for an eye."

[Megahurtz]

205. Believe me

complete castration WILL prevent someone from re-offending.

Sorry for the simple analogy, but, what happens when you neuter a sexually aggressive dog? They mellow out. Period.

You're reading me wrong. "Getting revenge" is very shallow and I'm not shallow.

I don't think you understand. Raping and sexually abusing a child is the same as taking their life. In a sense the act is like "killing" this person. It kills their spirit, kills their ability to lead a normal life. The mental and emotional affects can be so devastating that the abused person is unable to function normally and carry out a normal life, for the rest of their life.

Now I think that that's a good enough reason alone for preventing the offender from re-offending, don't you?

[livinginphotographs]

207. I think you're replying to the wrong poster.

I'm 100% in favor of chemical castration for child molestors. I was replying to guy who likened it to "an eye for an eye."

[Megahurtz]

211. OOPS....I'm sorry livinginphotographs,

x( I did reply to the wrong poster, I just reread before I read your response. I was referring to siliconefreak jumping to conclusions.

I, like you are focused on prevention, not an "eye for an eye".

Anyway, I do apologize.

[livinginphotographs]

212. No sweat.

It happens all the time. :D

[Djinn]

247. no it wont

you don't actually need a knob to rape someone. Being raped with a finger or another object is no less traumatic than being raped by someone with an intact dick. Castration will not stop paedophilia.

I don't think you understand. Raping and sexually abusing a child is the same as taking their life. In a sense the act is like "killing" this person. It kills their spirit, kills their ability to lead a normal life. The mental and emotional affects can be so devastating that the abused person is unable to function normally and carry out a normal life, for the rest of their life.

a large generalisation there - some people use this as the justification for applying the death penalty to rapists which is a REALLY bad idea.

Sexual abuse doesn't kill you and it doesn't (neccesarilly) remove ones ability to lead a normal life - it would be better if people could get over the whole "shame" thing, no-one ever feels shame if they are beaten and robbed, this is another act of violence - but if a rapist realises that his only witness could put him in the electric chair then he has every incentive to kill them - he's not going to be executed twice is he and if he (or she) kills the victim there's no-one to give evidence against them.

Some people may feel that sexual abuse or rape is akin to death but the majority of victims prefer to be alive

[Megahurtz]

208. I have a question for you....

Do you really compare lying to raping a child???

[sr_pacifica]

181. I agree

But we live in a pretty "sick" society when it comes to sex, so freepers and christian fundamentalists are not only ones who are going to react so hysterically to sexual pathology.

[siliconefreak]

182. THANK YOU, sr_pacifica

And I agree with you too. (I'm not surprised that you live in the Bay Area!)

[Nashvilliberal]

185. So you think it's hysterical to react so strongly to child rape? n/t

[siliconefreak]

198. Yes

I know your question wasn't directed toward me, but yes, I think recommending that anyone be hanged, electrocuted, beheaded, or physically tortured is a hysterical reaction to any situation.

[tx_dem41]

202. Yes, its wrong to give up your founding principles due to any specific....

situation. If you do, you show you really never held any principles strongly to begin with.

[ChemEng]

164. Send them to jail to share a cell w/ Butch..

Remember...the same one that Lochlear wanted to have Kenny boy share a cell with?

[flyarm]

176. hey fbi...

there is a real pretty house in washington dc..large columns..and white..can you run a sting there and get back to us on what you find lurking in the press briefing room??

thanks..you will be doing your nation a great service!!

fly

[tx_dem41]

196. Its eye-opening to see how easily the majority of you trash...

the Constitution. The evidence is all over this thread. We constantly criticize the Republicans for doing it, but with this thread I find that we can be just as guilty of trashing the Constitution.

[siliconefreak]

200. absolutely

I rarely pat myself on the back, but although I'm disappointed with the majority of opinions here, I'm also proud of myself for disagreeing with them. I'm glad there are at least a few others who feel the same.

[roguevalley]

203. I remember them from way back. "Sex before six" was their

motto and they are all over the usenet. They all need to be jailed. There is no protection for speech, etc when it encompasses crimes.

[tx_dem41]

204. So when ever one utters a saying that touches on the topic of an

illegal act, one should be thrown in jail?

[Sean Reynolds]

217. But it's ok to pay someone to have sex with a minor?

God I hope you're not a parent, because I'd question whether you're capable of keeping their safety. Last I checked the US Constitution did not condone child pedophilia, mind telling me where it does?

[tx_dem41]

219. How in the hell does your post address what I posted?

Please point out where I said anything CLOSE to saying it was okay to "pay to have sex with a minor"?


Please point out where I said anything about the Constitution condoning "child pedophilia" (as opposed to canine pedophilia, I suppose?)?

Did you even read my post, or are you just making shit up?

[Sean Reynolds]

220. I read your post. If I'm wrong it's because your original post wsn't clear

You said we were trashing the US Constitution, I want to know how. Is it because people feel strongly that these people are the lowest of the low?

Please be a bit more clear on this. Do you condone these men's actions? Or do you just feel it's not ok for people to give their opinion on it? Either way, how are 'we' trashing the Constitution?

[tx_dem41]

221. If you don't take the time to read the whole thread....

then don't throw out personal charges at individual posts.

Please read the thread and you will find examples where people think that these men should be killed immediately, allowed to be raped in prison, etc. I would NEVER want these things done in my name because 1) they are unconstituional and anathema to everything we supposedly stand for 2) they are immoral, IMO.

I volunteered to help with a case in SE Texas in the early 80s where everyone in the area thought that a black man had raped and killed a 15 yr. old girl in a rural high school. Many said that he ought to be castrated and hung and killed and mutilated, etc.,etc. Well, it ends up that the DA for the county had received clear evidence that this black man had NOT committed the crime and in fact another man clearly had by the evidence that the DA then suppressed. This DA was willing to let the black man be executed to save his own neck. This almost happened. Two hours short of execution, the Federal Court put a stay of execution. The black man was eventually freed, but unfortunately the real perpetrator was never caught due to the devious actions of that DA.

If you condone such violent, vigilante actions especially without even a trial then perhaps you are the one that should not have the responsibility of raising kids.

[Sean Reynolds]

223. But that's not trashing the constitution, is it?

It's reinforcing free speech. Now I don't believe these men should be raped, killed or beaten like you as well. But I also don't believe stating one's opinion is trashing the US Constitution. I think some people probably get too emotional when they read stuff like this, and that is their right. We don't have to agree with what they say, but I'm sure you've said some nasty stuff about people in the past as well.

I think these men need mental help because obviously something happened in their life that has pushed them toward despicable acts. However as someone that has gotten very emotional over different things in my life, I can't say I blame people for their remarks. Like you said a couple of posts above, saying something objectionable doesn't always mean one should be accused of something they're not guilty of (in this case, trashing the constitution). I don't believe chatter on a message board does that. If this were a judge saying it before the trial, your point would hold firm. But I hardly think that's what is going on here.

[tx_dem41]

226. I understand your point, and I appreciate the rationality that it was..

stated with. I agree to a point with what you're saying. But, then again, we on this board also criticize very similar statements (made in the same context) that RWers make, and no one seems to make the defense you just made.

[Sean Reynolds]

233. Well I think it's easy for us to accept statements we agree with.

And not accept those statements we don't agree with. Either way, when a statement is made in the form of an opinion we should accept it, even if we don't agree with it.

I remember when Ronald Reagan died and there were many on here that celebrated like the devil himself had died (not that there is much of a difference). Then Clinton was put into the hospital with heart problems and some people over at FR started attacking him. Many here were angered that people would stoop that low...yet just a few months before most of them were stooping that low as well.

[tx_dem41]

234. We will disagree on one thing...

Opinions are posited to be debated. That is what this forum is about.

[Sean Reynolds]

235. Debated, but respected, to a point.......

Unless flatly wrong (like me saying it's my opinion JFK was never president).

But as they say, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. :D

[NorthernSpy]

225. I believe wholeheartedly in the Eighth Amendment.

I am opposed to cruel and unusual punishment, and I oppose the death penalty.

Abu Ghraib happened because the torturers felt, above all, justified. It's quite clear to me that much of this board's revulsion against the Abu Ghraib villains' actions is feigned: many people here would do the same things if they had an opportunity and a victim they despised.

Most people -- from the pedophiles to the people who want to torture the pedophiles -- are evil. Didn't you know this?


(fixed typo)

[tx_dem41]

227. Yes, I fully knew that after a few months...

on this forum. That doesn't mean I can't call them on it, when I see it. Whether I am right or wrong, is of course, always open for thhe debate of the members.

[Megahurtz]

230. Sorry, but

don't you think that raping a child is torture to that child???

I think that insensitively turning a blind eye and identifying with the perpetrator instead of the child, and allowing their torture of children to continue is evil.

So we're evil just because we don't want this stuff to go on, and we feel angry that it does?

Hmmmmm, which of us are the real evil ones here?

Put yourself in the kid's place for once!

The stupid perverted adults can take care of themselves, the kids cannot!!!

Hello!!!!!!:dunce:

[tx_dem41]

231. The last time I read the Constitution, there wasn't an exception for..

...pedophiles. Even after the last four years, I have faith in our Constitution and am not willing to chuck it out in the trash for special, reprehensible cases.

It is thinking that you have to have special exemptions that leads people (like *co) to attempt end-arounds around the Constitution like secret tribunals, limitless imprisonment without representation and torture.

[Megahurtz]

237. Hi tx_dem!

:hi:How are you? I'm not sure about the constitutional issues you were discussing with the other poster, but I was just replying to the other posts where it seems that people all too often feel sorry for the perpetrators, and not the young helpless victims.

Constitutional or not, I think the focus should be for the victim, not the perpetrator. Some people that post seem to not identify with the young victim at all. I mean, some of these victims are pretty young, so think of what they're going through. Even an older child is devastated too. I guess in this case I don't have any sympathy for a perpetrator at all.

[tx_dem41]

238. Hi MHz...

:hi: I don't think any of my posts are the some other posts bringing up the Constitution showed any sympathy for the perpetrator. The Constitution is paramount in what this country is supposed to be about, and right or wrong, many parts of it pertain to the rights of the accused (and even the convicted). I'm not certain what specific rights for the victim could be delineated that might not infringe on these other rights. But, I'm open for suggestions!

As a personal aside, one of the seven men arrested is (was) the dentist of my wife and me. So, this has shaken us up a lot this week, as could be expected. I don't feel sympathy for him at all (he obviously was an f'd up individual, although he hid it quite well), but I do feel sorry for his two children, and his office staff. They are great people and I feel horrible for them.

[Megahurtz]

244. Wow, that's sad,

my condolences. It's even harder to take when it's someone you know. I can only hope for the sake of his own family that he didn't even touch his own children. I do feel sorry for his wife, she must be in shock (unless for some reason she already knew) People like this that do these things that appear SO normal, you would never know.

Sometimes, some of the most freaky looking people are kind and harmless, and the most normal looking people are the worst. They can hide it well. (of course, not everyone normal looking, I have to stress this point or I might get flamed!)

Just like the G.O.P., who fool the public appearing so normal and honest, but cover up in secrecy.

Sometimes there are a miriad of unknown skeletons in the closet.:freak:

[Redstone]

257. He was your dentist?

Boy, that would give me the willies. How many times have you used Listerine mouthwash since you heard the news? If it was me, it would have been about 75. A day.

I can see your point about his office staff and especially kids. They didn't do anything wrong but will be haunted by his perversion for the rest of their lives.

Redstone

[siliconefreak]

228. new member of the ACLU

This discussion has made me even more appreciative of the work done by the ACLU. I just became a member. :)

I'm thinking of donating to Amnesty International as well - again, thanks to many of the comments made by my fellow DU members.

[Bluebear]

229. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

I am the last person to support pedophiles, but I can't believe that a Fox News story would elicit so many cries for instant electrocution etc.
I thought there was a guilt phase before a punishment phase in a trial? Believe me, when these men are incarcerated, "prison justice" awaits them, not Fox News.

[GOPBasher]

253. I'm astonished that these people exist. What the hell

is wrong with them? Are there any DUers who are experts in psychology? I'd really like to know how the hell people become like that. It's so fricking disturbing.

I'm no Dennis Miller fan, but he said a funny-ass thing when he was talking about these people. He said that they should be castrated, and then the Acronym can be changed to "North American My Balls Lack Attachement."

[slackmaster]

255. Mass rationalization by people sharing a common paraphilia

NAMBLA adopted the mantle of gay liberation and used slick media in an effort to make themselves look like another repressed group.

It's kind of like the National Geographic Society's marketing - You don't just get a subscription to a cool magazine with nice pictures; you become a "member" of a "society". NAMBLA's journal and its various Internet presences and splinter groups make it in a sense the National Geographic Society of male homosexual pedophile porn.

It's much easier to feel OK about being different if you convince yourself you are a member of a legitimate group.

Of course it's all backfiring on NAMBLA because an overwhelming majority of people find the idea of sex with a child to be repulsive. We have a deep instinct to PROTECT children, and NAMBLA collides with that. Bottom line - They're just a bunch of fucking perverts with a good marketing department.

[GOPBasher]

258. That's basically what I thought, except you said it way better. :-) n/t

[slackmaster]

259. Thanks - I always knew my psych degree would be good for something

:evilgrin: