Dershowitz defends Summers

[ckramer]

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. - Some high-profile professors are rallying to the defense of Harvard President Lawrence Summers, who is under pressure to soften his leadership style.
Law professor Alan Dershowitz, in a statement released late Wednesday, backed Summers' presidency, which has come under fire since Summers suggested innate differences may explain why more men than women excel in math and science.
Dershowitz credited Summers as being more ``open to debate, disagreement, and dialogue'' than any other president in his 41 years at Harvard. He said he disagrees with Summers' recent comments, but defended the right to raise the question.
``This is truly a time of crisis for Harvard,'' he wrote in his statement, reported in the Boston Globe. ``The crisis is over whether a politically correct straightjacket will be placed over the thinking of everybody in this institution by one segment of the faculty.''

bh

[mudderfudder77]

1. Glad to see Dershowitz stand up.

[pacalo]

4. Great cartoon!

[PROGRESSIVE1]

6. kick

[Mizmoon]

2. Once again, if the man wanted to explore gender issues

he could have easily done it without breaking out that ancient sexist canard.

[MAlibdem]

5. Read the comments.

He did not say women are inferior. He said that there could be innate (read biological) differences (clearly there are) that could account for difference in performance in math and science (i dunno, maybe?).

[ElectroPrincess]

8. Focus your attention on "there COULD be" ... making blanket

statements based on correlation data only serves the purpose of prejudice and discrimination against entire groups of humanity, i.e., not just women.

There are numerous suggested innate differences among the races but does a leader in academia tout this as something to focus on? Nope, they would be fired immediately.

[forgethell]

13. But what about his

free speech rights? Don't they count for something? If not, why not? Should Ward Churchill be fired, also? If not, why not?

[cally]

9. Show me the studies that prove that

Yes, women and men do learn differently and there are differences. Every study I've seen has shown that men and women are just as capable in learning any subject.

Better yet, let's discuss why boys are falling behind in school. Innate differences? Girls are smarter?

I don't think so but I assume you do.

[ckramer]

10. I think girls listen to their parents more and do homeworks

[MAlibdem]

23. I have no idea

I'm not a pedagologist or psychologist nor do i claim to be one.

[0007]

46. There are more men in prison than women so that should

tell ya something.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. Except that the number of highly successful female engineers and

scientists working on ground breaking issues already refutes Summers' musings and one would expect the leader of an academic institution to at least know these women exist.

[bemildred]

3. By their friends shall you know them ...

Mr. "Torture is OK sometimes" defends Mr. "women don't seem to
think as good as me".

[cally]

7. Hardly surprising

that they are friends. :shudder:

What most refuse to consider is that the latest criticism of Summers is that he is a bad president. Instead, too many defend him because of his sexist comments. Yes, they were sexist. He has a right to make a fool of himself and spouting nonsense. He also deserves the criticism for his ignorance and sexism. As President of Harvard he should do some research before he lectures.

[bemildred]

14. Agreed. nt

[centristo]

16. torture is ok sometimes...

don't you watch 24?

[bemildred]

19. I don't watch TV. nt

[IrateCitizen]

28. You're beyond ridiculous!

Using a fictional TV show to bolster your support of torture.

Go find the rock from under which you crawled out....

[Psephos]

35. Oops, self-delete

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. My feelings have changed just a "bit" over this story since it first broke

And that is it is POSSIBLE that Summers was opening an inquiry into the subject to have the audience flush it out and question it...the thing that bothers me most is that he certainly had the opportunity to clarify that in the room that day if he were, in fact, misunderstood, which he claims he was.

Nobody question his right to raise the question...what people question is whether HIS OWN HIRING practices arose out of having that question answered already in his own mind since they seem to reflect that he did.

[Voltaire99]

15. Professor Torture to the rescue of President Y Chromosome.

Not surprised to see these scum in bed together.

[zara]

17. Good to have the Torture Advocate support him on Human Rights!

: <

[despairing optimist]

18. Summers to Ward Churchill: Wanna swap lives?

Apparently not. Some tongues and pens are more equal than others.

[98geoduck]

20. I think Dershowitz, Summers, and Repugs are absent part of a human brain

Some people believe this to be true, and I don't see evidence denying it. I say brainscan the whole bunch and let their deficits be shared for
furthering the advancement of science and societal placement. Perhaps those without critical thinking skills should be put to work as dishwashers and custodians.

[Demeter]

30. They Definitely Lack Human Hearts

and the soul is either completely inert or completely gone.

[Rockerdem]

21. Alan seems to be making the transition that Zell Miller made

Dershowitz supported the war, IIRC. Now this.

[ckramer]

22. I think he behaved strangely and badly since the 2000 election

[moobu2]

24. He said it was ok to torture people

[centristo]

25. i guess this is where i break with liberalism

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/03/cnna.Dershowitz/

Read the transcript. Dershowitz is making what I consider a valid point.

Consider a case where a terrorist plants a bomb in the apartment building your whole family is living in and then gets captured by the CIA. The bomb is set to go off in half an hour. Through another source the CIA knows that the bomb will detonate in half an hour, killing thousands, but they don't know where.

Are you going to tell me its not OK to torture this man to find out where this bomb is? Will you seriously be able to live yourself when your entire family is dead, along with thousands of other innocents, and this terrorist is still alive in a jail cell somewhere?

If torture could have prevented 9/11 from ever happening are you going to still defend its prohibition? No doubt torture is a slippery slope, but when lives are on the line I have no problem defending its use.

That's why I brought up the show 24. If you've been watching it you know what I mean.

[IrateCitizen]

27. Torture rarely produces reliable information

Most times, the person being tortured will just tell the torturer what he or she wants to hear in order to get it to stop.

It's utterly unreliable as a source of gathering information. Furthermore, it's barbaric. Torture represents a clear dividing line between civilization and barbarism.

It pains me to see how far our country has slipped toward the latter, if not crossing the line entirely.

Do you honestly think those involved with 9/11, who obviously didn't care if they lived or died, would have "cracked" under torture? Additonally, the fact you would bring up a fictional television show to bolster your argument only tends to completely diminish its credibility.

[centristo]

31. if you've never seen the show

then you don't know what point I'm trying to make.

But that's not the beef of my argument anyway. The argument is that with an innocent person's life on the line you would rather let them die than torture someone who you know to be guilty (of premeditated murder) for potential life-saving information. I would rather exhaust every possible resource to save the innocent person's life.

What if a million lives were on the line? What about ten million? What then? Would a civilized society truly err on the side of caution in these cases?

[IrateCitizen]

When we actually encounter that situation, then we can talk...

But as it is, based on all empirical evidence at our disposal, torture is one of the least reliable methods for extracting information.

Now, if you're just a sadistic fuck and you torture someone because you enjoy it, that's another matter.

In any event, the situation you are describing is so far out there and so unlikely to actually come to pass in that form, that it's almost useless debating it. Especially with someone who has expressed their eager willingness to slide toward barbarity.

[centristo]

33. i'm making one point

and you're rebutting other points I never made. Clearly, torture is ineffective and undesirable in free nations but in SOME EXTREME cases it could help SAVE lives.

Others on this thread chimed in that Dershowitz said "torture was OK". I found the transcript where he said this, provided a link and put it in context. Please read it if you haven't. He made the same point I'm making which was referred to as the "ticking time-bomb" scenario. It is an unlikely, hypothetical event, but it does prove, IMO, that in SOME EXTREME cases torture is permissable.

Peace,

centristo

[Bridget Burke]

34. Science fiction, alternate history, etc.

Point out a real, historical case in which torture was the right thing to do.

Real people are being tortured; your tax dollars are paying for it.

[Bridget Burke]

29. 24 is a TV show. Fiction.

9/11 could have been prevented if Bush & Co had listened to the warnings--& done something besides scheduling vacation time.

There's never an excuse for torture.

[centristo]

36. once upon a time

9/11 was fiction. Tom Clancy wrote a book about terrorists hijacking planes called "Debt of Honor".

http://www.lazardev.com/Solutions/TomClancy_alQueda.htm

1994 Tom Clancy, a favorite author of the CIA and the Pentagon, publishes "Debt of Honor", which describes a terrorist crashing a 747 with a full fuel load into the Capitol, killing the President and many of the House and Senate members.

Dismissing 24 as fiction is skirting the issue.

[Bridget Burke]

37. The issue is: You're using FICTION as an excuse for torture.

I repeat: Document the REAL, ACTUAL instance when torture had a good result.

[JFK Dem]

42. Dershowitz said it was okay to torture enemy combatants

He said things like sterilized needles under the fingernails are okay as long as it doesn't cause permanent damage. It's distasteful to me but I think he was referring to the law rather than his personal opinion.

[IrateCitizen]

26. I'd like Cornel West's testimony as to how "open to debate" Summers is.

Somehow I think he'd tell a quite different story.

Furthermore, let's not forget this is the SAME Lawrence Summers who, when at the IMF, urged the "impeccable economics" of moving polluting industries to developing nations.

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[LinuxInsurgent]

38. well well...

the pro-Israeli brutality Professor Dershowitz makes his appearance...

he's never late...expect Dershowitz at any conservative, neocon, or Likudite defense rally...always there.

[JFK Dem]

39. Dershowitz defends free speech

What would you rather have - a President of a major university afraid to make statements because he may "offend" OR to know how someone REALLY thinks because of an environment that encourages free speech. I prefer the latter and am glad that Dershowitz made a stand. Larry Summers has apologized enough - he's no bigot.

"There is no nation so poor that it cannot afford free speech - but there are few elites which will put up with the bother of it." Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan

[IrateCitizen]

40. Larry Summers no bigot? Ha! That's a good one!

I would suggest you ask that of Cornel West, considering the row they had upon Summers arrival, which ultimately resulted in West's being forced out.

Furthermore, this is the same Larry Summers who, while chief economist of the IMF, circulated a paper arguing in favor of the "impeccable logic" of relocating polluting industries to developing nations, because they remained vastly under-polluted.

OK, Summers may not be an out-and-out bigot. But he's a complete jackass, and a heartless one at that. Furthermore, I believe his attitude of "saying whatever he feels" has resulted in a significant drop of female applicants for tenured positions at Harvard.

[JFK Dem]

41. You know more about Summers than I do

I only know Summers was Treasury Secretary during the Clinton administration. I read his comments about women, science and math and didn't find anything particularly insulting about the words. I think conversations like this are important to have without hyperventilating. In the long run, Summer's comments may actually inspire more women to go into engineering and science fields in order to battle the stereotype. That would be a good result.

[IrateCitizen]

43. Yeah, I'm certain that's what will result from his comments...

Especially since such attitudes have worked wonders in the past, what with the steady deluge of women going into science, mathematics and engineering when they were told that they weren't predisposed toward those fields like men were.

Summers is a complete turd. He's emblematic of just about everything I despise vis a vis elitism.

[JFK Dem]

44. At least you know what you're dealing with now

I still contend that it's better to know how someone really feels - which can only happen if they are free to speak their mind - than not know. If Summers is fired from Harvard, the effect on "free speech" will be chilling. And then you won't know what's in someone's heart, will you?

[moobu2]

45. Dershowitz doesnt defend free speech in general

Dershowitz seems to only defend other Jewish peoples free speech.
The reason I say that is Dershowitz spends an awful lot of time attacking professors who don't support Israel, even accusing them of encourageing Islamic terrorism.

Lawrence Summers is a Jew, although not devout.

Dershowitz also support torture as long as it's an Arab being tortured. He just pretends to defend free speech, he's an extreme Zionist.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. Dershowitz defends free speech in between screaming anti-semitism

[moobu2]

48. Why Is Alan Dershowitz really defending Professor Summers?

I'm not posting this because I'm anti-Jew or whatever because I'm not. I'm posting this because I'm anti-neocon Zionist fascist policies and don't like Alan pretending to be defending Summers out of some great desire for Professors to have free speech bla bla bla..
You cant really blame Alan for defending one of his own but don't let him pretend he's doing this out of some altruistic motivations.

Here's proof.

Dershowitz Says Faculty Members Work To Encourage Islamic Terrorism

BY JACOB GERSHMAN - Staff Reporter of the Sun
February 8, 2005
It's not often that a professor tells a packed crowd at Columbia University that Edward Said was a political extremist and that faculty members in the school's Middle East studies department encourage Islamic terrorism.

The professor who made those statements yesterday isn't from Columbia but from Harvard. Law professor Alan Dershowitz showed up at the intellectual home of Said, a literature professor who was a fierce critic of Israel, to rebuke Columbia's faculty and administration for tolerating an atmosphere on campus that he said promotes the hatred of Israel

LINK

Beware anti-Semitism's rise, Harvard's president warns
By Lawrence Summers
The following is a speech that Harvard University President Lawrence Summers gave on Sept. 17 at Memorial Church in Cambridge, Mass.:
I speak with you today not as president of the university but as a concerned member of our community about something that I never thought I would become seriously worried about -- the issue of anti-Semitism.
I am Jewish, identified but hardly devout. In my lifetime, anti-Semitism has been remote from my experience. My family all left Europe at the beginning of the 20th century. The Holocaust is for me a matter of history, not personal memory. To be sure, there were country clubs where I grew up that had few if any Jewish members, but not ones that included people I knew. My experience in college and graduate school, as a faculty member, as a government official -- all involved little notice of my religion.

LINK

Free speech is free speech, you cant pick and choose.

[spooky3]

49. It's simply another example of more than one "east coast liberal"

who is sexist. Unfortunately, there are many liberals who don't "get" the sexism in their own views and actions.