Soldiers sometimes rough despite risk of antagonizing friendly Iraqis

[Rose Siding]

snip>
On another day, however, Flaherty saw it differently. "These people don't understand nice," he said. "You've got to be a hard-ass."

Such contradictions are understandable. The troopers of Charlie 1-8 Cav arrived in Iraq with almost no training in Arab culture or guerrilla war. In January they had just two interpreters, one of whom barely spoke English. Patrols without interpreters were disasters waiting to happen. One such patrol began randomly searching houses on a whim after midnight one night. The residents turned out to be Christians- more likely to be the targets of terrorist attacks than the perpetrators.

"Why, mister, why?" one woman in a nightgown asked. The soldiers could only shrug and leave.

Aldrich recounted how a group of soldiers used fists and an electric stun gun to punish an Iraqi teenager who'd flashed his middle finger.

"I've got 200,000 Iraqis I've got to control with 18 people," Aldrich said, referring to his platoon's patrol sector. "So I've got to command respect. And unfortunately, all that hearts and minds stuff, I can't even think about that."

At another point he added: "There are things I have to do out here that I can't explain to my chain of command, and that the American people would never understand."

......MORE........

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/10937079.htm

[atreides1]

1. I See The US Military started those Geneva Convention classes

Wasn't the lack of training in the Geneva Conventions one of the excuse used by some of the Abu Ghraib bunch. I see that the Army is still not teaching some of the aspects of the Conventions.

Nothing like the "tell me what I want to know, or I'll kill you and your family" approach to really get some one to help you out.

Pardon me if I don't shed a tear should SFC Aldrich's name appear on a casualty report, one day.

[Blue to the bone]

13. That comment was lower than whale shit!

Yeah, the one about SFC Aldrich. Wear his shoes before you wish death on injury on him. We wonder why we get hammered by the right for being on the wrong side......and have the claim stick.

[High Plains]

16. Goood Sgt. Aldrich

Should go home. Otherwise, he gets what he deserves.

[Blue to the bone]

22. Anything to make the Chimp look bad, right?

Anything? Even wishing death on Americans?

[Book Lover]

2. "...the American people would never understand."

Try us, buddy. How about the Iraqi-Americans, think they might understand? Oh wait, that's right - the people you'er "fighting for" are all white and middle class. We all wave the flag and just love our SUV's.

"The next morning, soldiers arrived to find several female members of a family dead - and one little girl alive, clinging to her dead mother. Some of the men broke down in tears, the soldiers said.

"I will never forget that girl raising her head up," said Staff Sgt. Victor Gutierrez of Los Angeles."

Good. I hope you take it to your fucking grave.

[Rose Siding]

3. They think they're cowards

The soldiers had concluded that most Iraqis lacked the courage to stand up to the insurgents, and it angered them.

"I mean, everybody in this country has a weapon. Somebody is setting up a mortar tube in your front lawn - do something! Call somebody! Shoot `em!" said Charlie Company's commander, Capt. Rodney Schmucker, 30, a West Point graduate from Latrobe, Pa., near Pittsburgh.

Even if you have a weapon, would it be smart to attack a group with a mortar all by yourself? Presumably, they'd have other weapons as well- and your family is right there...

[leftchick]

8. he fails to take into consideration MANY Iraqis commiserate

and aid the resistance. Nobody likes to be brutally occupied. And these tactics make it worse daily. This is a No WIN Capt. dork!

[montana_hazeleyes]

4. Many Americans

refuse to look at this in a way of thinking if the opposite was happening. What if a powerful group invaded our country and bombed us and killed our friends and neighbors and families and occupied us.

We wouldn't stand for it. We would fight back. We wouldn't care that that group doing this thought we were sub-human.

It's all so sickening.

[TahitiNut]

5. Sometimes I wonder.

Sometimes I wonder how many "red-blooded Amurikans" would look for opportunities to profit. Sometimes I wonder how many "red-blooded Amurikans" would look for ways to curry favor. Sometimes I wonder how many "red-blooded Amurikans" would look for hiding places. I'm not at all confident large numbers of people would fight. We aren't now. Hell, we don't even have the national unity to have a General Strike.

[Blue to the bone]

14. Perhaps if they did it to free us from the Chimp.....

....we'd think otherwise.

[jbnow]

57. You're right

And it amazes me. I always try to put it in terms of us if I speak to the indifferent. Not even just if we were invaded...

But if there were a lot of really bad people loose in our town, we'd want the police to get them. But how would we react if all our homes were broken into by the police, ripped apart, if our families were killed by "precision bombing" or armed searchers, would that be OK? If we rarely had water, gas, electricity and over 50% unemployment because of the ruin brought and it wasn't being fixed...would we remain friendly to these police?

After all they are seeking REALLY bad guys.

Conversely...if I were a 19 year old kid who had joined the service for reasons I thought would make life better and I am suddenly in that situation??? I don't know who will shoot at me next or from where and my friends had died before my eyes, then everyone looks like the enemy. We can't be sure of how we'd act then, especially with leadership the quoted leader represented.

But this 35 year old guy quoted is saying some outrageous things. There are no innocent civilians? I could understand if he said you can't tell innocent from guilty civilians, but not that there are none. "These people"?

Imagine the impression they are giving of "we" people.

[jody]

6. The troops do things that some might question but they are trying

to protect themselves and their comrades. Anyone who has ever been in combat understands although in hindsight and the safety of our homes we might believe we would have reacted differently.

It's easy to blame the troops but they are not the primary culprits. It's Bush and a cowardly congress that give Dubya a constitutional cover for his immoral deeds.

Many who post on DU have relatives or close friends who are in Iraq and you know they are not fundamentally evil. The solution is to bring them home as soon as possible.

[Book Lover]

7. I am one of those

My nephew is a Ranger. That does not mean I am about to hide under a blanket saying "It's OK, I love him and just want him home," even though that is the truth.

[MisterP]

10. I cannot excuse them

[jody]

11. I did not ask you to excuse them, I ask that you understand the situation

in which young, naive boys and girls, not mature, experienced men and women, are placed. Have you no compassion?

ON EDIT ADD
I went to your "Pacific Wildlife Project" link and you apparently support some animals that have been abused, why not the young troops in Iraq?

[MisterP]

12. it's only that calls to "understand" because "you're not in their shoes"

is almost invariably code for "excuse and support the troops no matter what."
And nobody really enjoys having their compassion chain yanked, but that's another tale altogether.

[jody]

23. We need a military as long as there are nations and others that would

attack us.

Once in uniform, a trooper has no choice but to obey orders or face severe punishment. A very few men and women have shown the moral courage to accept punishment for their convictions and disobey orders but that is an awful lot to ask from young men and women.

I have compassion for them just as I deplore Bush and congress that ordered them into Iraq.

That doesn't mean that I agree with every thing the troops do in a particular situation but then I'm not there under the continual stress of facing death as are they.

Without bogging down our discussion in religion, Jesus recognized the problem when he said "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes". (Luke 12:48) That's compassion.

I'm sure one of our resident theologians will comment on my assertion above.

[The Sheik]

46. Look, military is a way for people to leave poverty, and they are forced

into combat. So support should be given. If support isnt given, say hello to internal stife and guess what, more losses for the democrats.

[MisterP]

50. I en't attacking the military

I have a cousin in the 1st Cavalry, a grandfather almost on Iwo Jima, and the other in the Wehrmacht at the hinder lines at Stalingrad

[The Sheik]

51. My apologies.

[NYC]

27. 35 years old is no child.

"If I'm out here, and I get shot at, I'm shooting every house near me!" Aldrich, 35, yelled in his booming former drill sergeant's voice. "Because you aren't helping me catch the bad guys, and if you're not helping me, you are the bad guy."

Another statement by the 35 year old Aldrich:

"The one thing you learn over here is that there are no innocent civilians, except the kids. And even them - the ones that are all, `Hey mister, mister, chocolate?' - I'll be killing them someday."

[Blue to the bone]

15. You hit the nail on the head Jody!

Those kids didn't ask to be sent there unprepared in training or lacking equipment. Most of them are doing what they have to do to survive day to day, like any of the rest of us would, I'm sure. To wish harm or death on them is outrageous in my opinion.

[Rose Siding]

21. "To wish harm or death on them is outrageous" -who did that?

This is an article that reveals a NUMBER of "outrageous" things but I don't see anyone coming CLOSE to your implication.

And the most outrageous quotes aren't from "kids", but from older guys.

[High Plains]

18. The troops need to quit.

If you don't quit this ungodly war, you get what you deserve.

[jody]

38. Do you know the penalty could be death for quitting? Would you quit?

QUOTE
Misbehavior before the enemy
Any member of the armed forces who before or in the presence of the
enemy--
(1) runs away;
(2) shamefully abandons, surrenders, or delivers up any command,
unit, place, or military property which it is his duty to defend;
(3) through disobedience, neglect, or intentional misconduct
endangers the safety of any such command, unit, place, or military
property;
(4) casts away his arms or ammunition;
(5) is guilty of cowardly conduct;
(6) quits his place of duty to plunder or pillage;
(7) causes false alarms in any command, unit, or place under
control of the armed forces;
(8) willfully fails to do his utmost to encounter, engage,
capture, or destroy any enemy troops, combatants, vessels, aircraft,
or any other thing, which it is his duty so to encounter, engage,
capture, or destroy; or
(9) does not afford all practicable relief and assistance to any
troops, combatants, vessels, or aircraft of the armed forces
belonging to the United States or their allies when engaged in
battle;

shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial
may direct.

UNQUOTE

[The Sheik]

47. Get what they deserve? Nobody except for bloodmongers want to go to war,

but seem need to get away from their house and need to go to college.

[TahitiNut]

42. Yep. Impossible to explain. I've tried.

When one's reality becomes insanity ... well ... :scared:

[MisterP]

9. ooh, a nice Lt. Calley moment

[Blue to the bone]

17. HUGE difference between what most of them are doing.....

...in difficult circumstances and what Calley did...which was cold-blooded murder. Huge difference! And painting them all that way only gives the other side the ammo they need to paint us in a bad light.

[High Plains]

19. They are foreign invaders

And they are brutalizing the people they invaded. Get out, or get dead.

[Blue to the bone]

20. Are you referring to the American troops?

Or to the foreign fighters from around the region who are blowing up innoncent men, women, and children on a daily basis?

If THOSE FOREIGN INVADERS would stop their shit, we'd be out of there in 30 days!

[Rose Siding]

25. "there are no innocent civilians"

"The one thing you learn over here is that there are no innocent civilians, except the kids. And even them - the ones that are all, `Hey mister, mister, chocolate?' - I'll be killing them someday." -Sgt. 1st Class Glenn Aldrich, 35 yr old ex-drill Sgt.

[Blue to the bone]

26. Why can't we admit that the ones making our lives miserable....

....over there don't really give a squat about foreign troops on their soil??? What they're really pissed about is that they've lost the power their minority has had for over 30 years and they'll kill ANYONE in order to try to keep that power.

Again, if that violence would stop the Iraqi government would ask us to leave and we would...........well, execpt for the bases that the Chimp and his cabal of commercial thugs are planning....but that's another topic.

[Rose Siding]

28. Who's making whose lives miserable?

Sgt. First Class Glenn Aldrich of Charlie Company questions a Baghdad man who lives near the site of a bombing. "The only language these people understand is violence," Aldrich says. Ken Dilanian, Philadelphia Inquirer

And permanent presence, whether in the form of bases or an occupation really is the topic.

[Blue to the bone]

32. I don't know, but I'd bet.......

....that SFC Aldrich is correct. After 30 years of getting their heads busted by Saddam's goons, I bet they are a pretty tough people to deal with....and yes, they hate us occupying their country.

I would imagine that our troops are learning exactly what it takes to get the results they desire and to stay alive from day to day. War is hell. We shouldn't be there. But it's not the troops fault that they're there....they don't want to be there either.

As for the permanent presence in the form of bases, does that come as any surprise to anyone? Did we really think the Liar-in-Chief had the best interest of the Iraqi people in mind?

I think not.

[Rose Siding]

36. But wait a minute- you said you knew

In your previous post you said we should admit that the people making OUR lives miserable were the one's who had power before. But in this post, they seem to have not had power but rather had their heads busted. Which is it? Either way, they have a far greater right to be there than we do.

[Blue to the bone]

40. Yes, perhaps you've never read about Iraq under Saddam...

.....a TINY minority of Sunnis, from Saddam's tribe, held all the power. The busted everyone's heads....Sunnis, Shia, the Kurds....anyone who stood in their way.

I suspect that most Sunnis in Iraq would welcome an end to the violence that is their daily lives. But the killers who are now amongst them have them so damned frightened (because they know they'll kill them as quickly as they'll kill anyone else who stands in their way) that they do little but sit on their hands.

[thebigidea]

29. as opposed to our noble way of killing to gain and keep power

[Blue to the bone]

30. Blame the Chimp-in-Chief who sent them there!

I'm against what I see as blanket condemnation of American citizens trying to do a job they didn't ask for under difficult circumstances.

If they commit a crime they should be tried and punished....but to wish death and injury on them does our side NO GOOD!

[Rose Siding]

31. You haven't explained yet who wished "death and injury" on them.

[Blue to the bone]

34. Read post #1 and post #16 for starters....

....I think they made their views clear.

[Rose Siding]

35. That's quite a reach. No tears really isn't a wish, is it?

And no- no one has been clear about wishing for anything beyond DECENT treatment of people who never would have harmed us at all had we not aggressively invaded their country and killed so very many of them.

What those soldier do is done in our name. It's unacceptable.

[Blue to the bone]

37. Not a wish....just getting what he 'deserves'.....

....right?

[Rose Siding]

39. I can't speak for that poster, but I don't believe it goes so far as that.

"No tears" would indicate a lack of emotional reaction- a lack of a level of personal sympathy one might feel for someone who hadn't finally concluded that in Iraq "there are no innocent civilians"

[Blue to the bone]

41. And the 'get what he deserves' comment...

.....?

[thebigidea]

43. 13 posts, but David Horowitz would be glad to say it speaks for all of DU

As will the usual stooges.

Oh yeah, and Jonah Goldberg... I can smell you from here. Give my regards to mumsy, you rat bastard.

[Blue to the bone]

45. High Plains is a rat bastard?? n/t

[thebigidea]

52. can't you read? It clearly says Jonah Goldberg.

who, if he posted here - would be far, far more obnoxious.

[Blue to the bone]

53. Okay then........

.....who is Jonah Goldberg...other than being a rat bastard?

Should I this rat bastard?

[thebigidea]

54. I'm not the Ignorance Correction Service, go visit google

[Blue to the bone]

55. It's not ignorance, it's laziness!!!!

Please keep the afflictions straight. And boy, are you testy.

[Blue to the bone]

56. And you were right....

...he is a rat bastard.

[Rose Siding]

44. Sorry, still not a "wish" OR a "blanket condemnation of American citizens"

Of course I don't know exactly how that new poster feels, but I don't see anyone wishing death on anyone.

[Blue to the bone]

49. Add posts 18 and 19 to the list....

....he's on a roll.

[The Sheik]

48. They are foreign invaders being forced in. They cant just leave and

go drink lattes.

[exploited]

24. Clueless morans

The cultural divide began opening at day one and they are still none the wiser?!

Scores of car loads of innocents have been blown away because the US troops have fail to grasp that they are no longer in Kansas. Apparently the US hand signal for "halt" is easily confused as the signal for "hello" by Iraqis. To stop a car load of Iraqis you have to hold your palm to the ground and motion downwards, not wave your hand up in the air.

How are they to know > US soldiers = mushrooms? They only know what they've been told. Which one of fools in command told them the Iraqi 'people don't understand nice' -- the same ones that think it's fun to shoot people? I'm surprised that there are still any 'friendly Iraqis' left to offend.

Aldrich, son... you are not 'commanding respect'. You are dispersing your own fear. Use that fear, for it will help you make it home safely. When you arrive home you will sleep soundly at long last, without the fear of seeing the faces of dead innocents in your dreams. Just remember, you're alive, and saving the life of 1 Murikan is worth the death of 100 ragheads.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[NNN0LHI]

58. I see Bush's warriors are winning more Iraqi hearts and minds. Nice

They hate us for our freedoms. Our freedom to kill, rape, and dehumanize anyone who gets in our way.

Don