Castro Blasts U.S.-Led War in Iraq

[Rose Siding]

HAVANA -- President Fidel Castro called the U.S.-led war in Iraq a "brutal bombing spectacle," and criticized the Bush administration for its spending on the war.

In comments televised Friday from a speech two days earlier, Castro said the billions of dollars being spent in Iraq "won't cure AIDS, won't cure any disease, won't cure anybody."

Meanwhile, he said in the speech to a workers' congress in Havana, Cuba exports thousands of doctors to needy countries.
...
Castro advised those who continue to accuse Cuba of human rights violations to focus on their own problems.

"They'll have to shut their mouths, or ... start admitting that revolution can be just," he said, calling his brand of socialism much more humane than the "imperialism" he said is being imposed around the world.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-us-castro,0,1031769.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

[Blue to the bone]

1. I flew over Cuba the other day.....

....looks like a pretty country.

[The Sheik]

2. I am sure the shit-pasted streets and starving one legged kids give it

a taste of charm.

[Blue to the bone]

4. Not to mention.......

....all the autos from the 60's and the houses that haven't been painted in 40 years. But they do have a lot of doctors and they are exporting them.

[mitchtv]

5. you've been there?

you're sure you don't mean Colombia,Peru, or Brazil?

[Blue to the bone]

8. I've not visited yet but....

...have a buddy whose from there and visits fairly often. He lives in the States, is an American citizen but still has family there.

He usually flies to Mexico City and catches a flight from there. Claims at customs in Havana they don't stamp his passport (at least not with anything easily noticed) since he's an American citizen.

[mitchtv]

14. I haven't been either, am am hesitant to comment to the contrary.

BUT, if you want to see that, you don't have to break US laws. Mexico is close enough- Ecaudor is good to see results of no healthcare. In Colombia and Brazil young homeless have been 'exterminated'. In Peru they room in packs, also hunted. So I'm sorry, I don't believe there is much more in Cuba. And in Cuba at least, the amputees have had it done by a doctor. I have been in much of Latinamerica.

[Say_What]

20. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

more swill from Radio Mambi and the anti-Cuba propaganda machines in Miami.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<clips>

WHO praises Cuba's primary healthcare services
02/16/2005 -- 11:11(GMT+7)

Havana (VNA) - Jack Chi-con Chow, Deputy Director of the World Health Organisation (WHO), after returning from a visit to Cuba, praised the country's primary healthcare services as a model for other countries to employ.

The WHO official highlighted the fact that Cuba's healthcare network is intended to reach every citizen and has been kept running constantly. He said that given its encouraging experiences in combating HIV/AIDS, Cuba should make more active contributions to devising a global strategy against the disease.

Jack Chi hailed the country's regular HIV/AIDS campaigns which have drawn the voluntary participation of people from all walks of life, especially young people. One such campaign calls on people to learn to live with HIV/AIDS.

He reiterated WHO's commitment to maintain its cooperation with Cuba.

http://www.vnagency.com.vn/NewsA.asp?LANGUAGE_ID=2&CATEGORY_ID=34&NEWS_ID=139031

[The Sheik]

23. Great.

School uniforms and healthcare which is the best in the region of typhoid water hospitals really compensates for the fact that you still live under a dictator and will grow up your entire life not gaining anything.

[Say_What]

31. Only someone COMPLETELY UNINFORMED about Cuba's healthcare

and the island in general would make such a idiotic claim. Like I said, straight out of the Banana Republic of Miami's propaganda machines.

[The Sheik]

34. Well, this is coming from the Bay Area capitalist paradise of Hillsborough

so the fact that Cuba looks good over the rest of its hell hole neighbors doesnt hide the fact that it falters heavily by human rights, economic, and social standards.

[Joe Chi Minh]

148. Except that your capital

is hemorrhaging to the Chinese at a rate of knots! You mad punks are running your country into the poor-house.

[tinanator]

160. glass houses

im sure your view is quite broad

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Say_What]

42. Learn from Cuba, says World Bank

<clips>

...“Cuba has done a great job on education and health,” Wolfensohn told reporters at the conclusion of the annual spring meetings of the Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF). “They have done a good job, and it does not embarrass me to admit it.”

...Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong. The Bank has insisted for the past decade that improving the lives of the poor was its core mission.

...At the same time, however, its record of social achievement has not only been sustained; it’s been enhanced, according to the WDI.

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999; Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

[Carl Brennan]

110. And to think Cuba did this while the US is engaged in

a perpetual state of hostility to that tiny country.

Just think of what Cuba, and other countries so harassed by the US, could do if they were just left alone.

It is obvious that Castro's Cuba and Chavez's Venezuela have alot of good thinks to offer.

[Say_What]

166. Despite 40 + years of its ugly northern neighbor trying to starve them and

they have managed to feed, house, educate, and provide worldclass healthcare for their citizens. Quite remarkable!! Now if only we had something similar to care for the thousands of homeless, uninsured, and poverty stricken in this country--that would be a true democracy.

Seen Motorcycles Diaries? It's pretty good and the book is even better.

Viva Cuba!!

[Lizzie Borden]

127. Viva Fidel!!!

<no sarcasm>

[leesa]

65. Wow! And I thought maybe you had actually been there! Where do you

get in the US?

[Rose Siding]

105. Scarcities starve Cuba's model health system

Cuba is not paradise. But Fidel Castro's health care system racks up some wins in the "Battle of Ideas," a Madison-based medical aid delegation learned this month.

The Battle of Ideas, a national solidarity and service campaign now in its fifth year, holds up Cuba's socially oriented, government-funded programs - especially health care and education - as models against President Bush's versions.

On a damp January night, the 11-member Wisconsin Medical Project group met at the office of Dr. Bernie Micke, a UW Health family practitioner, to stuff huge rolling suitcases with items like Tylenol, Immodium, ostomy supplies, sutures and stethoscopes.

A week later, packing personal luggage and the donation bags, we flew to Toronto and then to Havana. The nonprofit Wisconsin Medical Project, directed by Micke, is one of the few programs in the state still licensed by the U.S. government to travel to Cuba........

http://www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/index.php?ntid=29219&ntpid=0

[Judi Lynn]

108. Great article! Here's a map showing Camaguey

I learned several years ago that there is a significant Haitian population in Camaguey. Haitians have been received and given a place to live there, and have a community which has been the subject of studies. I got a CD of songs by the Haitian Cuban group, Dessandan, which sings all over the world, everywhere but here.

Haitian community praises solidarity of Camagüey towards its country


Camagüey, Feb 10. - The Haitian community in Camagüey celebrated the Day of the Solidarity between that neighboring Caribbean country and Cuba.

The gathering took place at the Cuban Institute of Friendship with the People (ICAP) branch office in this city, in which its Delegate, Francisco López Domínguez, granted a recognition to members of that community, who participate in all the duties the Cuban society carries out.

Adolfo Machado, head of the Community of Haitians and their Descendants in Camagüey, highlighted that they became citizens of Cuba with full rights since 1959 and thanked the internationalist aid the Cuban people give to Haiti, especially in the education and health fields.

The vocal ensemble Dessandan, made up by Haitian descendants, performed a representative selection of its repertoire that is basically in Creole. (Bárbara Suárez Ávalos)
(snip/)

http://www.cadenagramonte.cubaweb.cu/english/up_todate/february_05/100205_04.asp

http://www.haitiforever.com/cuba/camaguey.shtml

Click this link to hear a little concert! Refresh to hear several songs. Neat photos, too.
How many chances do you get to hear Cuban Haitians singing?

[VegasWolf]

107. Yes, as opposed to the US where you work your entire life to buy a

color tv.

[Judi Lynn]

49. Those photos are absolutely the best.

The kids in the first one are just about the liveliest, and most irrepressible kids I've seen in AGES: hardly the faces of kids whose parents are living in terror, or in desperation, contrary to the propaganda/whoppers flying out of our right-wing nut bins in Miami, etc. So cute: they're nearly bouncing off the walls, aren't they?

(The kid on the left, right in front of the camera, reminds me of Jordan's King Abdullah!)



Cuba's a terrific place, it seems, after the American Mafia was chased out, along with the slippery, greedy scum-buckets who moved to Miami in the first wave, and the brutal, filthy dictator Batista, who helped himself to a huge portion of the National Treasury on his way out of town.

Another article from your link:

Cuba invests 150 million USD in modernising health care system
02/18/2005 -- 16:35(GMT+7)

Havana (VNA) - Cuba has over the past two years invested 150 million USD to modernise its health care system in a bid to improve the free health care service for all 11 million Cubans and to help other countries at their request.

Addressing the closing session of the congress of the health care sector on Feb. 16, Cuban President Fidel Castro said that Cuba is carrying out an unprecedented medical programmer, which will make the country a medical service centerer of the world.

President Castro stressed that with the on-going policies and programmers, the Cuban people's life will be better.

Since the success of the Cuban revolution in 1959, all Cuban people have received free medical services. Cuba now has 70,000 doctors and 250,000 medical workers. About 25,000 Cuban doctors are working in Latin American, Africa and Asia. More than 1,300 students from 19 countries will graduate from the Cuban Medicine University this year. The Latin American Medicine University in Havana is providing training for more than 7,000 students from 24 nations.

Cuba is also helping Venezuela in training 40,000 doctors in the next ten years.--
(snip/)

http://www.vnagency.com.vn/NewsA.asp?LANGUAGE_ID=2&CATEGORY_ID=34&NEWS_ID=139428

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cire4]

24. You're joking right?

1. The streets are not pasted with shit
2. Children are not starving
3. Children have 2 legs

Visit Cuba...You may be suprised

[The Sheik]

27. ACHTUNG!

Nein scherze nicht ich.

[leesa]

66. You have a serious problem, man.

[Carl Brennan]

111. A reincarnated Third Reicher maybe?

:shrug:

[IndianaGreen]

134. Perhaps his TV is stuck on Faux News...

how else can we explain such intellectual rigidity.

[Dirk39]

46. Although it is well known all around the globe...

that communists eat little children - or the more moderate ones one or the other of their legs and shit and piss on the streets, instead of liberating other countries, I did not see one legged kids or shit-pasted streets in Cuba.

But people, who have a government - democrats or republicans - which is among those, who refuse to ban landmines, are the right-ones to talk about one-legged kids, that's for sure...

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[LinuxInsurgent]

59. Cuba is not

shit-pasted...it's a poor country...but so is most of capitalist Latin America as well...

and for its poverty, it's amazing that has the best literacy and medical rates in Latin America.

I don't like Fidel's dictatorship...but Cuba's foreign policy is HIGHLY preferable to the U.S one.

[IndianaGreen]

121. You must be speaking of some glorious capitalist country, like our own

where poverty has become invisible to people commuting to and from work, as Michael Harrington described in his now classic Poverty in America.

Poverty - America's Shame
October 19, 2002
By pupirate

The United States is, bar none, the wealthiest country in the world. We are positively profligate in our expenditure of the world's resources, and we have more billionaires (by any currency measure) than the rest of the world.

And yet, about 12% of our population is poor. Yes, the poor in this country are much wealthier, in raw income, than the poor of the rest of the world; however, local economies have to be considered. In our country, it's relatively commonplace that the poor don't have enough to eat, week by week, month by month. Not having enough to eat is a relatively strong measure of poverty.

Why is it that America, proud, strong, and, under the current administration, arrogant, still has poor people amongst its population? The reasons are actually quite simple. For almost twenty years, both the Administration and Congress have been enthralled with trickle-down economics. This economic model is fundamentally false. As Ernest Partridge has recently written, the trickle-down economic model is false. However attractive it is, in theory, it still hasn't worked. It is a failure.

The reason for its failure is obvious. The model favors the wealthy. It depends upon the wealthy to invigorate the economy, which is wholly silly. The self-interested rich don't care about the poor.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/10/19_poverty.html

[ButterflyBlood]

3. Castro ROCKS

people need to listen to him instead of the Batista loving fascists in Miami.

[mitchtv]

6. "Gusanos" is the term, I believe

worms

[rwenos]

7. You've Got to Be Kidding

Cuando estudiando Generalissimo Castro, necesita reconocer el Caudillo Francisco Franco, de Espana. Si su quiere comprender el "Presidente" Castro, reconoce la fenomena de Franco -- un "presidente" solo en llamo.

Sus piensas tienen la fragrancia del joven.

Translation: Castro is a communist dictator, best compared to his mirror image, Francisco Franco. If you want to understand "President" Castro, remember the phenomenon of Franco -- a "president" in name only.

Castro's a dictator. Cuba will be better off when he's dead, just like Spain flowered after Franco.

Get real, friend.

[Blue to the bone]

9. Y su hijo Chavez?

Que piensa?

[rwenos]

11. Chavez Was Elected . . .

. . . thus analogies to Castro are inapt.

[Blue to the bone]

12. Si, pero yo creo que Chavez tiene igual....

....intenciones....Presidente Por Vida.

[rwenos]

13. Your Thoughts

Sus piensas estan solamente sospechas, sin prueba y sin historia.

Entendiamos Castro, sobre estas 45 anos pasado.

[Blue to the bone]

18. Si, verdad. Es correcta, pero.........

.....ha estado escuhcando o leyendo las palabras de Chavez?

Ya el quiero tener groupos de cuidanos (no militares) en los barrios...con armas....vigilando y esperando la invasion de los gringos de los EEUU.

En serio!!

[rwenos]

19. Pero . . . Los Gringos

necesitan el PETROLEO con un apetito peligroso y inextinguible.

(I had to look "unquenchable" up in my Cassell's.) :-p

[Blue to the bone]

22. Tambien verdad, pero.....

........en Venezuela hay casi igual monto de companias Chinas de companias del EEUU buscando y produciendo crudo. Bueno, en los ultimas anos, mas companias EEUU han estado saliendo del pais por los problemas politicos.

Y ya, Chavez quiere vender Citgo en los EEUU!

Yo no se que hara en el futuro, pero Chavez es un gran amigo de Fidel....este es seguro.

[rwenos]

25. Eso si que es. Pero Las Idiotas de Bush

have given Chavez legitimacy.

No leader in Latin American has ever lost votes demonizing the Americans.

Es verdad.

[Blue to the bone]

29. Si, y el peor cosa que la Idiota-in-Chief hacia.....

....was to basically say and do nothing when a democratically-elected President was overthrown in a coup a few years ago.

They should have done the right thing and condemned it, but instead, because it suited their short-term needs, they were short-sighted and gave Chavez all the political fodder he'd need for years.

BTW, thanks for letting me practice my Spanish. I suspect it's your first language, or your family's first language, as it's obviously much better than mine.

[rwenos]

30. I'm Flattered, but No

I too was practicing my high school ALM Spanish. Maybe I have more practice -- I live in Los Angeles. (Listening to the Dodger games in Spanish is excellent practice -- Jaime Jarrin speaks very clearly, but REALLY fast!)

My wife's family all speak it fluently. It's a matter of figuring out what the hell is going on, most of the time.

You're right about Bush -- he sold Chavez out big time. And got caught at it. STUPID.

[Blue to the bone]

Shit, I'm immersed in it and still struggle.....

....guess I'll have to see if I can catch some Dodger games on the radio. I assume that Jaime Jarrin is Mexican. I generally can understand the Spanish spoken by Mexicans than I can many others.

[rwenos]

35. Jarrin is Colombian or Peruvian, I believe

He was famous as a broadcaster in South America before coming to LA.

I've noticed the same thing in other languages I've studied. It's simply easier to understand the professionals -- actors, broadcasters. My German is much weaker than my Spanish, but I have surprisingly little trouble understanding tape of Goebbels. Hitler is impenetrable.

Languages are kool. It's a lifelong study.

[Blue to the bone]

36. Learning other languages and cultures really opens your eyes...

....unfortunately, too many Americans never travel abroad yet think the whole world revolves around the U.S.

[rwenos]

39. You're Right

Vous avez parler le Vrait.

Sie haben das sehr schon gesprochen.

That's why my kid started studying French in kindergarten. Now she's 12 years old and reasoanbly fluent. Would you believe in-laws in Texas still criticize us for teaching our daughter French?

Jerks and know-nothings.

[Blue to the bone]

40. Well, as my grandma would say.......

.....fuck 'em!

[rwenos]

41. Grandma's Got it Right! n/t

[LinuxInsurgent]

67. y que

Y que...es amigo de Fidel...Bush es amigo de los Saudis...era amigo del Taliban...su papa era amigo de Saddam Hussein. y que? Cual de estas amistades es peor...Fidel...o los la familia real de Saudi Arabia, o el Taliban, o Saddam Hussein. Por Dios...Fidel es un gatito bebe en comparacion con los amigos de Bush.

Que Venezuela esta haciendo negocio con China no esta malo...los paises soberanos tienen el pleno derecho de hacer tratados de comercio con cualquier pais que quieran...para el beneficio de Venezuela. Los Estados Unidos hace mas negocio con China, que Venezuela. Eso es evidencia de la dictadura de Bush?

Tus comentarios siguen siendo paranoia e insinuaciones...no tienen base de evidencia.

English Translation:

So what...he's friends with Fidel...Bush is friends with the Saudis...he was friends with the Taliban...his father was friends with Saddam Hussein... so what? Which of these "friendships" is worse...Fidel...or de Royal Family of Saudi Arabia, or the Taliban, or Saddam Hussein? For the love of God...Fidel is a pussycat in comparison with the friends of Bush.

That Venezuela is conducting business with China is not bad...sovereign countries have the full right to make commercial treaties with any country they wish to do so...for the benefit of Venezuela. The United States has more trade with China, than Venezuela. Is that evidence of Bush's dictatorship?

Your comments continue to be paranoia and insinuations...they have no evidence basis.

[Blue to the bone]

73. Straw men....

All the comparisons with the Chimp's friends are nothing more than that.

Where did I say that conducting business with China is bad for Venezuela? Where did I say that sovereign countries have no right to make the commercial treaties they want with other countries?

Yes, the US has more trade with China......and our jobs are being exported there by the millions. I happen to have a major problem with that.

You've laid out the Chimp's friends. You forgot one of Chavez's....Saddam Hussein.

I believe we're all judged by the company we keep.

[LinuxInsurgent]

74. You make a good point with the Chavez-Saddam connection

but his connection with Saddam Hussein was hardly at the same level as the Bush one...Chavez can shake hands with whomever he wants...but Saddam knows where he gets his military, and financial aid...from the Bushes.

The U.S. trade issue with China is seperate from Venezuela's trade with China. I happen to endorse the idea of an international minimum wage...to prevent "cheap labor" shifts in companies businesses from region to region.

On the issue of Chavez's frienship...indeed...he should be judged by his friendship with Saddam...but he deserves the chance to explain himself on that. I particularly don't like that he did go and make friends with Saddam...but perhaps it's just Chavez looking for allies.

[Blue to the bone]

80. My problem with Chavez is........

.............that I believe he's unneccessarily using anti-American slogans to try to whip-up support for himself and for his "great cause". I'm inclined to keep a close watch over my shoulder for some zealot who decides he's doing his patriotic duty by putting a bullet in the head of a gringo. Fortunately, the average Venezuela seems to respect, trust, and admire the average American.

But as another poster pointed out, many a Latin-American leader has used the same ploy to generate support at home, so Chavez is not alone.

As an American who lives, works, and invests in the country, and who was here the day HE tried to overthrow the democratically-elected government in 1992, I've watched him closely.

I have my opinions, they're not uninformed ones, and I'm entitled to them.

We appear to agree on a number of other points related to this issue.

[LinuxInsurgent]

84. what's unnecessary about them

He didn't start the mudslinging with the Americans...they did.

As soon as the United States started hearing of Chavez' Bolivarian dreams, they were against it. The U.S. doesn't like even moderate social democrat leaders...they like pliant right-wingers that will do their bidding and the bidding of companies like the United Fruit Company.

I think any responsible and morally-commited leader has a duty to condemn the United States (what you call anti-American slogans). The world as a whole should be shouting anti-American slogans right now...the United States is acting like a major rogue state...what's unnecessary about that?

I do not think the average Venezuelan admires the average American...the myth that the policies of the United States are the creation of a purely elite government, divorced from the true intentions of its people, has been shattered with the re-election of President Bush. It's not that Venezuelans hate Americans...it's that they distrust the knowledge level and capability for rational thought that the American public has today. I'd suspect this is the same viewpoint all across the world.

So you are an American living in Venezuela...and what do you do in Venezuela. It would do much to understand your viewpoints to know if you work in an official Embassy office...or if you do oil business, etc. You mention you "invest"...thereby giving the readers a clue to where your economic interests lie...and why Chavez' Bolivarian revolution might be a threat to you. His revolution is a threat to the Venezuelan upper-class who, for decades, has owned the national patrimony of the Venezuelan people (its oil) and enriched themselves at the expense of the 80% poor people. Chavez has made clear declarations that he intends to use the oil for enriching the entire country...that would be a clear threat to any group (Venezuela Right, and its American allies doing "investing" in the nation) who intends to maintain its exclusive control and profiteering of Venezuela's national resources.

You are entitled to your opinions...no one is gonna take that away from you. But, your opinions do not reflect the majority of Venezuela (as expressed by the last 2-3 elections, in which Chavez has overwhelmingly won), nor the majority opinion in the world, where Chavez' regime is, until now, looked with respect.

Until Chavez starts taking undemocratic moves...he's still a laudable democratically-elected leader with laudable progressive stances on world poverty, the environment, economy, politics, and other issues.

But...I can see how an American, involved in "investing" in the country might disagree with Chavez's comments.

[Blue to the bone]

93. No, I do not work in an Embassy......

....and no, I'm not in the oil business. I 'invest' in my private farm (something that Chavez encourages all Venezuelans to do...grown their own food), and help support my extended family through creating employment for them by working on the farm. Most of them have lost their jobs over the last few years.

If Chavez would indeed help enrich the country through the use of oil, I'd be all for it....and have stated so over and over again. Unfortunately, I've not seen any significant change in the number of those who are living in poverty. Yes, they're receiving better medical treatment on average, and for that, he's done a good thing. But I would imagine the per capita wage of the average man, adjusted for inflation, is not any better than it's been for decades, regardless of who was in power.

[LinuxInsurgent]

98. is that the fault of Chavez

or Third World status? Can we blame Third World leaders for not "delivering" on astronomical raises in living standards in a few years...especially with the U.S against you?

That's a larger problem, associated with international capitalism and how multinationals play off poorer countries for cheaper wages...that's not a fault of Chavez.

Everything else equal (as you state for the average Venezuelan)...if Chavez has gotten them better health care..then he's been a positive change for Venezuela.

[Blue to the bone]

103. Please help me understand how the US "against them"....

.....has anything to do with raising the living standards of the poor in Venezuela?

Against them? The U.S. buys virtually all of the oil that Venezuela produces and pays for it in dollars. What happens to those dollars once they hit the government's coffers? They don't seem to be filtering down to the average Venezuelan.

I agree on the issue of mulitnationals playing off poorer countries for cheaper wages, the problem here is that, other than food, the Venezuelans actually manufacture very little. Virtually everything is imported, it's expensive as hell, and they have few options.

Again, I agree that Chavez has had some positive impact on the country's poor, but I don't see it as anywhere near what the average arm-chair revolutionary in the US claims.

[LinuxInsurgent]

114. i didn't say

that Chavez was a magical solution...Third World poverty and the roots of it are a very intractable problem...it will take a lot of time, and a lot of rational thinking on the part of the industrialized West to really help the underdeveloped Third World. However, as long as the rule of the game is blind market economics (and not a rational plan on a world scale to face the monumentous problems we are facing, environmentally, economically, and politically), it is preferable to have a Chavez than a Bush.

[Joe Chi Minh]

151. Everything takes time.

Even progressive government such as Chavez's can't perform miracles overnight. Use your noddle.

[Blue to the bone]

153. Of course you're right KCabot.....

....I'm just a results-oriented guy I guess.

[Joe Chi Minh]

155. Not quite, Blue to the Bone.

Results oriented, maybe, in your own mind; but too unrealistic in your thinking to achieve them in reality, I fear. Perhaps the impatience of youth.

[Blue to the bone]

156. Youth????

I wish THAT was my problem!!

Perhaps it's because I'm so damned old I want to see results NOW.

Honestly, I've got an extended Venezuelan family here, and seeing Chavez succeed in doing the things he says he wants to do would be wonderful. There are so many here who's futures seem so bleak.

I just wish he'd drop some of the BS-demagogue language that he feels he needs to use. He doesn't. His message resonants with the populace without it.

[Joe Chi Minh]

165. "His message resonates

with the populace without it".

Good to hear, Blue to the bone. We need to be grateful for small mercies, though, where politics are concerned; and such a radical attempt at a mrere modicum of redistribution of wealth from the richest to the poorest, indeed, to the rest of the country, as a whole, is no small thing, even if it's not Utopia.

[aneerkoinos]

91. My problem

Is with the pompousness of a gringo calling most democratic leader of América and his supporters "anti-Americans"! :D:D:D:D

My problem is the imperialistic terrorist governement of the Gringolandia continuously and actively supporting murder, torture and oppression of Americans labor-activists, democracy activistis, people engaged in social movements, and the gringos who give their tacit support by their denial and willfull ignorance for the criminal terror-policies of their corporate fascist red-blue governements.

So in your opinion, when corrupt Washington puppets murder their people, the people (including young Chavez, Bolivians etc.) have no right to resist and attempt to throw such criminals from power, just because the murderers were "democratically" elected?


Greetings from an Euro-gringo...

[Blue to the bone]

124. Ahhh.....

...so could you show me where I might have said the following?:

<<So in your opinion, when corrupt Washington puppets murder their people, the people (including young Chavez, Bolivians etc.) have no right to resist and attempt to throw such criminals from power, just because the murderers were "democratically" elected?>>

[aneerkoinos]

132. Ohhh......

No, you didn't say so, notice the question mark! The question was prompted by your condemnation of Chavez' coup attempt against the "democratically" elected puppet of corporate imperialism who not only stole from, but murdered his own citizens.

Why don't you just answer the question?

[Blue to the bone]

139. I don't recall condemning the Chavez coup, but......

.....now that you mention it, yes, I do condemn it.

What I was pointing out earlier was that Chavez too was once a coup-plotter against a democratically-elected government.

And in answer to your question, yes, I do believe that all peoples have the right to overthrow criminals from power....but I believe they should do so through legal means, like at the ballot box, not like the coup they attempted against Chavez........or like the one he attempted back in 1992.

After all, Chavez was elected and has maintained his legitimacy through the ballot box. And that's how it should always be.

[aneerkoinos]

144. Ballot box

So you got "democratically elected" crook in the office, stealing people's money and ordering soldiers to murder people. Whaddaya do, wait for five years till the next rigged elections, or throw the SOB out of power even by extralegal means when necessary?

Do you also condemn Bolivian people rioting against robber corporations and throwing another a murdorous "democratically elected" president out?

I don't equal legitimacy of military coup with legitimacy of rioting masses engaged in popular resistance, but having not been there and not knowing all the circumstances, I can question the wisdom and justification of the military coup, but it is not possible for me to outright condemn it.

[Blue to the bone]

145. Thanks for agreeing with me aneerkoinos!

<<I can question the wisdom and justification of the military coup>>

Insert big winky emoticon!

[IndianaGreen]

140. "putting a bullet in the head of a gringo"

Perhaps you should go to Fort Benning, Georgia, and visit the renamed Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHISC), the re-baptized School for the Americas (SOA). Those sonofabitches at WHISC are the same bastards that trained Latin American death squads that count, among their countless victims, American labor activists and more than a handful of American priests and nuns.

If you are soooo concerned about Chavez "putting a bullet in the head of a gringo," something that Chavez has never come close to advocating, you should pay more attention to what your glorious American Government is doing in your name in Latin America.

[Blue to the bone]

142. Agreed 100% IG!!!!

But I'm not living in the past. I'm living in the present and taking in what's being said. Some of these things concern me....Chavez' spoken words, and the things I see going on.

I have in no way defended anything that any corrupt American government has done in the past.

[Joe Chi Minh]

152. Well, you need

to make intelligent comparisons - it' an imperfect world - and see that Chavez's government is, in comparison, very socially responsible in respect of all the people of the country (true patriotism, not wrapping himself in the flag and spitting on the poor), while America's is rapaciously predatory, at best and, at worst, murderous.

[IndianaGreen]

137. Chavez was the head of OPEC at the time, and Iraq was OPEC member

Pope Pius XII met with Mussolini, did that make him a Fascist?

The point is that Chavez is more democratic that any American President in the entire history of our nation, for none of our Presidents have ever been elected by direct popular vote, and some have never been elected at all.

[LinuxInsurgent]

63. so?

Creo que cualquier pais que le llegan amenazas continuas de una invasion Yanqui se prepararia con milicias ciudadanas...eso no es una indicacion de dictadura...que son las Reservas Americanas? Que es la Guardia Nacional? Recuerda que a Chavez lo quitaron de poder agentes de la CIA y grupos organizados de la derecha de clase alta de Venezuela. Hay evidencia que los Estados Unidos tiene intenciones negativas contra Chavez. El tiene el derecho, reconocido por la ONU, de defenderse y a su patria.

English Translation:

I think any country which receives continuous threats of Yankee invasion would prepare citizen militias...that's not an indication of dictatorship...what's the American Reserves? What is the National Guard? Remember that Chavez was removed from power by CIA agents and organized groups of the upper-class Right of Venezuela. There is evidence that the United States has negative intentions against Chavez. He has the right, recognized by the U.N. to defend himself and his country.

[Blue to the bone]

72. I'm interested in seeing the evidence of.......

........"continuous threats of Yankee invasion" and the evidence that the CIA took part in the coup. I've got an open mind, can you provide the proof?

Negative intentions against Chavez? The Bushies most certainly do and I clearly stated that they made a grave error by not denouncing the unlawful overthrow of a democratically elected President.

Of course, you're simply picking and choosing which of my words to use against me in your support of Chavez.

I haven't said it here on this forum, but I've said it here many times in this country. If Chavez can indeed do something to help the huge numbers of poor climb out of their poverty, then he's doing a good thing. Jobs, training, health care, etc.

But leveling the playing field by making everyone poor is not what most are hoping for.

[LinuxInsurgent]

76. here's the evidence

http://www.w3ar.com/a.php?k=1761
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1321
http://www.allaboutpalestine.com/articles/us_role_in_venezuela_coup.html

But everyone in Venezuela is not becoming poor...on the contrary, unemployment went down in recent economic indicators. How worse can it get when 80%+ of the population is poor (before Chavez)?...and who is to blame if the West starts "making an example" of Venezuela and pulling out investment in the country? Chavez? or the West's revenge tactics? Same thing with Castro's revolution...when it comes to economic investment, is Castro's revolution to blame...or the viscious economic embargo? I don't happen to think that EVERYTHING is due to the embargo (as Castro says), but he's not wrong in detailing that the embargo has stunted Cuba's development.

[Blue to the bone]

83. You're way oversimplfying it when you say......

...."the West starts making an example by pulling out investments".

To me, "The West" are businesses who were invited to enter the country by a democratically-elected government, most of whom signed contracts with that government, and then began investing and building infrastructure in the country to support their businesses...specifically oil-related enterprises that were exploring for and producing oil and natural gas.

I saw the effects of that investment as I was first here in 1992, and it greatly helped the average Venezuelan. The problem today is that Chavez has, in many cases, thrown out (not renegotiated) the old contracts and applied new tax rates that he feels are more beneficial to the country.

Rather than "making an example", most of these businesses are simply making a business decision to pull out. They're not making a stand based on politics, it's based on economics.

I'll check out your links and keep an open mind.

[LinuxInsurgent]

90. you are oversimplifying...

Those business were not "invited" by legitimate representatives of the people...they were invited by a goverment of the oligarchic elite...this has been the reality all across Latin American...the business that you mention are Western multinations interested in milking the national patrimony of Venezuelans to their heart's content...while they give cheap wages in return to the few, lucky Venezuelans who can get jobs in the oil and gas industries.

I agree...the decision to pull out is ultimate economic...but is political as well. They want a "safe" (read, pro-west, pro-unbridled capitalism) environment to do business in.

If Chavez can make an alternative industry based on national control...all the best to him...if not, I'd suggest he looks for multinational help...but on terms that are equitable to the Venezuelan people...not the highway robbery that characterized the previous terms with the previous Venezuelan oligarch governments.

Cuba has "mixed ownership" treaties with various EU countries and multinationals...some companies get profits...but Cuba makes an equitable revenue out of their own resources. There are alternatives to the "we'll take 90%, you keep 10%" terms emanating from U.S. companies.

[Blue to the bone]

104. I do believe that most of those contracts were on the order of...

.....50/50, not 90/10 as you state. I could be wrong, but in this case, I don't think so.

From what I understand, the main issue that caused many of them to leave was the changing of the tax rate without any negotiation.

[LinuxInsurgent]

115. what negotiation is necessary?

The State is sovereign...and the corporatiosn are invited entities on Venezuelan soil. Chavez raised the tax rate to get more revenue out of corporations doing business in Venezuela. Tax policy is a sovereign right of States...thus Chavez can use it...

In lay men terms...the rich companies wanted to keep more profits to themselves...Chavez was threatening to take more from them in the form of taxes.

[Blue to the bone]

122. True, what negotiation is necessary?

If you rent or lease your home, I'm sure you'd have no problem if the owner decided that he'd act in the best interest of his family and double your rent without even talking to you.

In lay men terms....the greedy renters only want to keep more of their income for themselves....the owner of the property is only taking more of their income for his family in the form of increased rent.

I see no problem with the concept.

[LinuxInsurgent]

125. your concepts of ownership are flawed

we are talking, at the root of it, about the legitimacy of ownership.

The renter-owner of a property as an analogy of the Sovereign State fails (unless you come at it from an anarchist point of view, in which the State has no legitimacy).

The Sovereign State is a representation of the democratic will of the people. The Nation is the State...the people of Venezuela are Chavez...and Chavez, as the head of State, cannot exist without the majority voting population voting for him. Thus, the actions that he takes to exact taxes from foreign entities doing business in Venezuela are legitimate because they are the actions of the Venezuelan people over their territory...as represented by Chavez. What he does...is what they want done. I don't see any major revolts in the Venezuelan population over the taxes that Chavez has imposed on the foreign entities, no? Questions over legitimacy come when the people revolt against a leader's actions...then...and only then can we deem Chavez to no longer be worthy of the credibility afforded to him as a democratically-elected leader. So far...he's got the Venezuelan people on his side with the tax policy...and that's enough to make it legitimate.

The Renter-Owner in your analogy does not act in the benefit of a people...he has no sovereignty...he does not act in the best interests anyone save himself...thus he is deprived of the legitimacy that comes from being a "representative of the people". If a Renter imposes draconian rents on an impoverished subject (rentee), he is viewed as cold and heartless, because the rationale of the higher rent is to enrich his personal pocket. When Chavez, as a representative of the people, imposes a higher "rent" (in the form of taxes) on these companies, it is viewed as legitimate (and even desirable) because he does not act for himself...he acts for Venezuela...and for the wellbeing of the State Coffers. Whether or not his tax policy is legitimate or credible is further judged on WHAT he does with the tax revenue (does he keep it for himself...or does he redistributes it in creative social programs). It seems that he does redistribute it...thus strenghtening his credibility.

I believe your analogy of ownership fails because it does not take into account issues of legitimacy that arise from working for the people and the Sovereign State...as opposed to individual enrichment.

[Blue to the bone]

126. So, if into the following quote:

<<The Sovereign State is a representation of the democratic will of the people. The Nation is the State...the people of Venezuela are Chavez...and Chavez, as the head of State, cannot exist without the majority voting population voting for him. Thus, the actions that he takes to exact taxes from foreign entities doing business in Venezuela are legitimate because they are the actions of the Venezuelan people over their territory...as represented by Chavez.>>

We exchange Bush for Chavez, you've got no problem with it?

[LinuxInsurgent]

129. quite a clever twist...but flawed as well..

I get your meaning...theoretically speaking, we could put Bush there instead of Chavez, and it would seem that, by the logic of my quote, I would be endorsing the will of the American people (even though I don't, and I detest Bush).

The problem with your formulation is that it ignores "world public opinion". Were we to apply "world public opinion" to the legitimacy or credibility of the ability of the Venezuelan people to elect a rational leader, I'd say that "world public opinion" is strongly in support of their ability to make a rational choice for leader (and supportive of Hugo Chavez and his Quinta Republica Movement). Now...apply "world public opinion" to Bush and the American people...and you will get a totally different appraisal. At this moment, "world public opinion" has judged that the American people are incapable of making rational decisions for leaders based on the evidence of governance presented (which, for Bush, is absolutely dismal and imperial). Thus, the credibility of the American people's power to rationally choose a good leader for the U.S is severely hampered (and the legitimacy of their choice lessened).

Perhaps I should have added that factor in there too...States do not exist in a vacuum...they exist through the consensus (and recognition) of the rest of the world. Adding "world public opinion" into my quote, it would stand that everything I said in that quote stands...AND Chavez is further legitimized by world public opinion's good appraisal of him. The same quote does apply to President Bush...except Bush has to deal with enduring accusations of his "rigging the vote" (which hamper his legitimacy) and classification as a "rogue leader" by most of the world's public opinion.

Based on this new addition to the formula of legitimacy and credibility...the Venezuelan people and their choice for leader are mostly deemed to be rational and just...where as the world looks down on the American people's judgment and ability to choose good leaders...and even more down on their choice (W).

I've got no problem with this formulation...it allows for the people of all nations to make their legitimate choices for president...but it also allows for the people of the world to judge the choices of each other...and make judgments on the quality of leaders...and populations.

[Blue to the bone]

131. I realze that fits your argument nicely, but it's flawed too....

....because "the world" doesn't elect any country's President. The people do.

So I ask again, can we insert Bush/United States into your quote and have you completely comfortable with it? I think not.

Dilemma, isn't it?

[LinuxInsurgent]

133. it's not flawed...

it's simple...it's the same policy that was applied against Saddam Hussein...was he not judged by the world public? What about Hitler...no one in the world elected him but the German people...was he judged by the rest of the world?

The hairy problem with the Venezuela-Chavez and U.S.-Bush cases is that, in both of these cases, both of these leaders were democratically elected. In order to arrive at which has more legitimacy, we have to, therefore, delve further. Democratic legitimacy cannot be arrived at through a simple evaluation of how they got into power (through people's votes).

The next logical step is to examine the conditions of their elections. Chavez election, by the judgment of the U.N. and the Carter Center, were fair. The conditions of the Bush election were contested...and a profound suspicion of vote rigging still remains in segments of the Democrat population.

After examining the conditions of their elections...in order to find their credibility, we examine their policies.

Hugo's policies in comparison to Bush's would be highly more favored by the world's population than those of Bush.

So...after logically proceeding in this "deeper examination", the theoretical "tie" in credibility between Bush and his election, and Venezuela's Hugo Chavez is broken in favor of Chavez by the intervention of world public opinion on Bush's election shenanigans and the undesirable nature of his policies.

Bush's election is deemed less legitimate then that of Chavez because the world agrees with Chavez's election and with the rationality of the Venezuelan people in voting him in. Conversely, the world DISAGREES with Bush's re-election...and with the rationale used by Bush's supporters to vote for him.

Not a dilemma at all...in simple terms, Chavez is considered more legitimate than Bush...despite they both being elected by their peoples.

[Blue to the bone]

141. Actually, I agree with you Linux

Chavez does have much more of a mandate than the Chimp has ever had. But that's not what I've ever argued here.

I've argued that there are things he says and does that alarm me. To me, they come across as not-so-veiled threats to those who he believes are not on his side of the revolution. Revolution is fine, but must 100% of the people be on his side 100% of the time?

Linux, I love reading your posts because you're very analytical and thoughtful in your approach to the topic at hand. But if you heard any politician making veiled threats towards those who might oppose his 'revolution', would that not alarm you? It does me...and I don't care who the guy is.

Now, on the specific issue of voter fraud, I do wish you'd study with equal zeal some of the concerns of Venezuelans who believe that the counting of the votes in the recall election was not as 'fair' as the UN and the Carter Center contend. The info is out there. I don't know the real answer, but to assume that everyone here believes there was no rigging by the Chavez government, is just flat refusing to listen.

[LinuxInsurgent]

147. I see your point..

Revolutionary leaders do get carried away with their speeches from time to time...the way to find out if their threats are real is to analyze their actions.

Chavez doesn't seem to me to be a threat to his people or his neighbors...thus any "boogeyman" declarations he utters about coming "socialism" don't scare me. So what if moves Venezuela toward a socialist regime...as long as he doesn't do what Fidel did (which is one party totalitarianism), I'm fine with it. If he runs a socialist economy wedded to a democratic and constitutional political process, I'm fine with it.

Thank you for your praise. I appreciate having a thoughtful discussion...these days...it's not easy to do that...a lot of mindless drones walking the streets, if you get my drift...

Regarding vote-rigging...well, i guess that's up to the beholder. Some anti-Chavista might suspect he stole the vote...and I suspect Bush stole this vote...so our concerns are equally valid.

Let's see what Chavez does from now on. If he keeps this present course, he's got my support. If he slides to dictatorship...I will be profoundly disilusioned...and I will retract my support for him.

[aneerkoinos]

138. Extremely poor analogy

Corporations are not people, for whom food and shelter should be a basic right.

Sociopathic corporations are the main cause of inequality and people being denied basic needs, and the analogy sounds just what greedy whores serving corporate interests would come up.

[LinuxInsurgent]

62. until...

hasta que Chavez declare esas intenciones...tus insinuaciones son opinion, y no verdad. Hasta ahora, Chavez ha gobernado de forma constitucional...y a puesto su gobernacion a la merced de un referendum...y lo gano tambien. No ha prohibido la prensa..no ha prohibido la libre organizacion y expresion de gente...Venezuela todavia es un pais democratico.

English Translation:

Until Chavez declares those "intentions"....your insinuations are opinion, not fact. Until now, Chavez has governed in a constitutional manner....and he's put his government to the mercy of a recall referendum...and he won that too. He hasn't prohibited the free press...he has not prohibited free assembly or the expression of the people. Venezuela is still a democratic country.

[Blue to the bone]

69. Yes, and since you read and write Spanish, you know.....

....that I clearly stated that "I believe", etc, etc.

I also believe I'm entitled to my opinions. And as an individual who lives in the country and listens to his words, reads his words, and sees his actions on a daily basis, I'm well-enough informed to draw my own conclusions.

[LinuxInsurgent]

77. so..you live in Venezuela?

Are you pulling the "i live here, you don't", card on me?

Fine...to each his own opinion...but...from what I've read on Chavez (and I've read extensively..i'm a Master's Degree in Political Science, focus on Latin America), Chavez has yet to do anything substantially anti-democratic. I've read of the usual, Third World-type use of state resources to "legally" put pressure on the opposition...but in no way has he circumvented the law, prohibited free assembly, free expression, freedom of religion, etc. Quite the contrary, when the coup happened (and I was aware of it while it was happening), the Venezuelan press (owned by the opposition Right) DID NOT provide any details of the g coup...CNN was the only source, and left-wing sources in Latin America. What does that detail about the character of the Right-Wing in Venezuela.

If I got to throw my lot with someone with Venezuela, it's with Chavez. I'll be damned if I support the oligarchs and the Venezuelan right, who for years have been playing with the people's desires and aspirations and ruling like the usual, latifundista Latin American oligarch regime.

[Blue to the bone]

86. You seem to like to put words in my mouth...

....why? My comments that I live, work, and invest in Venezuela were simply to show that I don't develop my opinions based on what I read about the country, but are based on what I experience. What's wrong with pointing that out? You point out your background and I respect it. In many instances I'm sure you're much better informed than I.

Substantially anti-democratic? Perhaps not, though the media gag-law, if instituted by the Bush Administration, would have us all up in arms in the U.S.

As long as Chavez senses that he's got the majority of the vote on his side, he does not really need to do anything substantially anti-democratic. He's got the legislature stacked in his favor and can pass just about any law he so desires. And that's democracy.

But again, it's my OPINION, based on watching politicians for most of my life, that if he does sense the will of the people changing against him, he's going to seize power and use the military to back it up......all to "protect the revolution".

[LinuxInsurgent]

87. ok...

Ok...you clarified your "i live, work, and invest" comment..and why you said it. Now...what is it that you do in Venezuela? And I didn't disrespect you...i simply made the theoretical assumption that, if you "invest" in Venezuela, you might have economic interest threatened by Chavez' revolution. No disrespect there.

What media-gag law? I keep reading the Venezuela RIGHT newspapers online...nothing gagged there. They're as still virulently anti-Chavez as ever...and if that is still occuring, sounds like the Venezuelan free press is as free as it ever will be (meaning, making fun of the President all the time).

The Bush administration rarely even talks to the Press...and when it does, it feeds it talking points...when's the last time President Bush has really been dug into with questions?

The question is not what chavez feels about the majority...it is why the majority votes for Chavez. The legislature is "stacked" in his favor because the people of Venezuela support his Quinta Republica party and their platform. That's democracy...they elected him and his Quinta Republica governors and provincial legislators.

You are perennially worried about the possibility of his "martial law declaration", and ignore the very real past coup attempt against him. Don't worry about Chavez seizing power in a military fashion...worry about the Venezuelan RIGHT attempting to seize power through military fashion...they are already proved they are willing to do it.

If you got to watch two people for the crime of murder...and one of them has already attempted murder....who are you gonna watch? The one you "sense" will do something in the future...or the one that did it already?

[Blue to the bone]

89. With that last comment..........

........you're forgetting that Chavez tried to overthrow a democratically-elected government in 1992.

[LinuxInsurgent]

92. he did...

so have many leaders in various parts of the world, who have been ex-revolutionary leaders turned democrats.

He failed his coup attempt...the people of Venezuela understood WHY he felt he needed to do it...agreed with his rationale...agreed with his political platform...and elected him to make changes in Venezuela...and re-elected him various times to keep his revolution going.

The reason why the Venezuelan people love Chavez is because he's given them their dignity and sovereignty back...and even if he stumbles economically...they still known he's way better than the previous oligarchs.

[Blue to the bone]

95. Dignity and sovereignty are good.....

......but they don't put food on the table. I guess that's why Chavez is encouraging everyone to plant their own gardens. He does indeed seem to have a vision for the future, and it's looking more and more like Cuba to me.

[LinuxInsurgent]

96. so...

sell your dignity for food?

I don't think the Venezuelan people are starving...that's an exaggeration on your part.

You still have not told us here at DU what you do in Venezuela.

[Blue to the bone]

100. I have indeed told you what I do.......

.....and where did I say that the Venezuelan people are starving?

[LinuxInsurgent]

you mentioned that you invest in farm..

kinda ambigious...

What is your official title...where do you work...who is your employer...that sort of thing.

We know you are related to agriculture in some way, but that still does not allow us to come to our conclusions on where your economic interests lie. A worker in a field is not the same as the agriculture patch owner of a latifundio.

[Blue to the bone]

120. Official title??

How about chief cook and bottle washer? I have no employer as my farm is my only source of income. But please don't get any grand illusions of a 50,000 hectare estate with hundreds of Venezuelans employed at near-slave labor wages. It's very modest, even by Venezuelan standards.

My economic interests lie in seeing my farm provide enough income so that I, and the family members that I employ, are able to pay to the bills and feed our families. Nothing more.

I might add that within my family, as within so many here, there are those who support Chavez and those who don't. It's a fact of life. However, it does give me a first-hand, and almost daily opportunity to explore the views from both sides of the issue.

[LinuxInsurgent]

128. ok...

so you are not a latifundista...so you are a self-employed modest-land farmer...why didn't you just say that?

My next question would be...why the hell are you in Venezuela as a farmer? If you like farming...why not farm here? You'd make a killing...It doesn't make any sense that an American citizen, who has no economic interest in being in a foreign country, would trade the benefits of living in the First World, to live in a Third World nation...unless of course, by some stroke of good luck, he has economic connections in Venezuela that afford him luxuries that normally would not exist for foreigners in a particular country. The only white foreigners that you will find in a foreign country are usually, in some way, related to Embassy workers or multinational corporations.

If you don't like Chavez much...you could always come to live in more affluent U.S., and that would end the argument, wouldn't it? I'm not concerned about what happens in other nations...let the people of each nation organize themselves in whatever ways they see fit...if tyrants arise in their nations...let them deal with it...In your case, you are an American citizen...you have the privilige of living in this blessed, industrialized country...but choose to live in a foreign land and deal with their problems. Why are you wasting your time arguing on a forum over Chavez. Let the man and his country be...let the Venezuelan people decide what they want for themselves...they do not need the paternalistic grumblings of an American living in their midst about the social-political makeup of their government and their country. I am confident that the Venezuelan people will continue to make the right decisions on what government they want. At this moment, they want Chavez, they want Quinta Republica, and they want the Bolivarian Revolution. That is not up to you to decide.

[Blue to the bone]

130. Geez, where did I say that I was trying to decide the future.....

....of this government? I've only said that certain things that the current President says and does, scare me. They affect me, and they affect my family, and if my observations are accurate, they'll affect my family for many years to come.

So I could make a killing in the U.S.? Is that what life is all about? Making a killing?

I'm happy here because I love the culture, love the people. But most of all, I love my Venezuelan wife, our child, and my extended family here who constantly demonstrate that family bonds are far more important than money.

Yes, America is indeed the land of opporutnity and I dearly love my country. But does that mean I can't live where I want to and if I'm not in America then I'm not allowed to question anything around me?

You say I could leave here and that would be the end of the argument, right? Well, you seem to have no problem taking up the cause. Why should I have any less reason to discuss what I believe to be the man's longterm intentions?

[LinuxInsurgent]

136. when in Rome...

you know the rest of the quote, right?

You misundestand me...i'm not in favor of following "money", at the expense of personal gratification in non-financial forms. If you love your wife and family, and life in Venezuela, more power to you. Enjoy Venezuela.

You are allowed to question...whether or not people will take your claims seriously depends on the credibility of your status. A Venezuelan has more credibility than a foreigner in speaking about the Venezuelan situation...that's jut how it is. I'm not Venezuelan...I'm Puerto Rican. However, the legitimacy of a Puerto Rican talking about Venezuelan affairs (particularly a Puerto Rican with expertise in latin America, and with an MA on the subject) is higher than an American. Again, that's just how credibility is perceived by our peers. You can deduce that simply by reading the comments on this board. Most of the others on this board agree with Chavez, and roughly agree with my appraisal of the situation.

Anyway, I don't want to continue this discussion...it kinda has reached it's end point...and I don't mean to rile your sentiments up by questioning your life and feelings. I hope you well in Venezuela...i hear they have great music (gaitas)...and I like some of their bands (Guaco is one).

Take care.

[Judi Lynn]

94. It would be appropriate for you to remember the President, Carlos Perez

against whom Hugo Chavez lead the coup ordered state police to shoot down poor demonstrators in the streets in "El Caracazo." From a timeline:

1989 - Carlos Andres Perez (AD) elected president against the background of economic depression, which necessitates an austerity programme and an IMF loan. Social and political upheaval includes riots, in which between 300 and 2,000 people are killed, martial law and a general strike.

1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez was jailed for two years before being pardoned

1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.

1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.

1998 - Hugo Chavez elected president.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1229348.stm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That President, against whom Hugo Chavez lead the coup, Carlos Andres Perez, a personal friend of George H. W. Bush, was impeached for having stolen over $17,000,000.00. Estimates of the number of dead following his orders to shoot the poor demonstrating in the streets have reached above 3,000 in some accounts.

Hugo Chavez was pardoned. A lot of sneaky people would prefer if people didn't know much about the circumstances. I can see why.

On edit: Adding info.:

On February 27, 1989, Perez increased the price of gasoline and the cost of public transportation. Following an IMF model to garner foreign investment, his austerity policies hit the poorest people hardest. But Perez apparently did not expect Venezuelans to respond to "economic shock" programs with spontaneous protests, which erupted throughout the country. In some areas, rioters torched shops and set up roadblocks.

When the police went on strike, the government lost control. Perez called for a state of emergency. The soldiers fired into crowds. By March 4, the government claimed that 257 lay dead. Some non-governmental sources estimated the death toll at over 2,000. Thousands were wounded.
(snip)

It took the IMF and World Bank - with strong backing from the Reagan government - and its neo-liberal offensive in the 1980s, to push Venezuelans into action. They rebelled against policies designed to further impoverish them and reward those who needed it least. Although the 1989 Caracazo emerged as an unplanned response to a set of new measure, the uprising also symbolized years of discontent over government corruption. The Caracazo destroyed the shady Perez, the prestige of the two major parties, and it opened the door to a more radical politics, outside the party structure.

The Caracazo also had a profound impact on sectors of the Armed Forces. Some younger officers who opposed the neo-liberal policies had joined the popular uprising when Perez ordered troops to open fire. Officers like Hugo Chavez saw the Caracazo as a learning experience. Four years later, in 1992, he led a military coup against another corrupt civilian government. It failed, but Chavez gained sympathy from fellow officers and the government felt pressured to release him in 1994 after he served a short prison sentence. Indeed, in the 2002 coup many officers remained loyal to Chavez and his populist policies and, to the surprise of the coup makers, restored him to power within two days.
(snip/...)

http://www.peaceredding.org/Buzz%20Words%20and%20Venezuela.htm

[Blue to the bone]

97. You're correct, of course Judi Lynn and my point....

....was not in defense of any given past Venezuelan President. They've all raped and pillaged the country's wealth.

I was merely making that point that those who defend Chavez using the "democratically-elected" mantra should apply the same rules to other Venezuelan Presidents who were also elected democratically.

My beef to date with Chavez is that I believe I've seen far more rhetoric than results. I don't deny that he's got the support of the 80% of those who live in poverty. The problem I have is that the number never seems to go down.

[Judi Lynn]

101. Maybe you've not been reading anything but the "opposition" news!

There have been substantial articles posted here concerning real progress being made after the artificial handicap handed to him by the "opposition" forces when they created the employers' strike and crippled workers' livelihoods, and production for far too long.

If I'm not mistaken, a great DU'er has posted some interesting info. concerning a tremendous bounce in "bidness" already, on this very thread.

There have also been articles written about the arrival of water and electricity to areas which were surely without, brought about by, I believe, the efforts of the state oil company, or something. Those articles have been posted here and read over many months. That's a remarkable achievement.

[Blue to the bone]

106. I just joined DU so I've not yet found the articles to which you..

....refer. And I've in no way insinuated that there has been zero progress since Chavez took office. Again, I've stated repeatedly that I've seen progress, especially in delivering much-needed medical care to the poorest of the poor.

One of my many problems with Chavez comes from some of the things that he says. For instance, before there could be a recall election, a certain percentage of the population was required to sign a recall petition.

I watched Chavez one night, during one of his 5 hour speeches, say the following...and I paraphrase, but it's damned close:

Remember, those of you who sign the recall petition, will be required to provide your Cedula Identification Number and other personal data which will then become public knowledge. We will all know who you are....................long pause.

Well, I don't know how the average Venezuelan took it, but it surely sounded like a not-so-veiled threat to me. Sign the petition, and if you're a government employee, you may suffer the consequenses. Alternately, I (Chavez) have no control over those who might want to do you harm for trying to stop the revolution.

Anyway, I don't like many of the things he says and encourages.

[Judi Lynn]

109. Maybe something is missing in the translation

But nothing I have EVER heard or read suggests Hugo Chavez threatens Venezuelan citizens. On the contrary, the Vene. "opposition" is a daily threat to his very life. He is despised by the nasty ones who seek to destroy him.

He has broad shoulders. He can cope. I'm certain he doesn't threaten citizens.

[Blue to the bone]

112. Yes, perhaps, but when Chavez says publicly on....

....October 18, 2003 that the government will "remember anyone" who signs the petition on the recall referendum, I don't know how many ways that can be taken.

Perhaps he meant that they'd get a Valentine on the 14th of February. What do you think?

[Judi Lynn]

113. I'm not going to go on your word alone.

What you claim was said reminds me of the dirty business being conducted by the "opposition," and they could have used a warning that the names would all be checked, by golly, and thoroughly.

Here's a quick grab to illustrate the need to suspect opposition scumballs and the way they attempted to collect names for their cause:

The ruling coalition complained of fraud, after the police raided the homes of opposition activists and the offices of opposition parties Sunday and reported that hundreds of forged identity documents were found.

Several people were also detained, some of whom were carrying large numbers of national identity documents, according to the police and election authorities.

The central office of the Democratic Action party, the main opposition force, was searched by the police after reports that identity documents were being forged there to send activists to the verification centers under assumed identities to confirm disputed signatures.

If the complaints of fraud are followed up, the results could be delayed beyond Jun. 4.
(snip/...)

http://www.antiwar.com/article.php?articleid=2712

We're also very familiar with reading that supervisors in some of the large companies coerced signatures from their employees, including Coca Cola companies, (doesn't George H. W. Bush's good fishing buddy, Gustavo Cisneros, coup leader and mass media owner, also own Coca Cola companies in Venezuela?) under threat of losing their jobs? We have heard multiple examples of this kind of nonsense.

He would have been correct in informing the "opposition" in a public speech that the results would be carefully checked, and lead them to believe they wouldn't just be able to run the show without any oversight by the government.

[Blue to the bone]

117. Judi, I've not......

...said a single word backing the opposition, other than that they too once claimed to democratically elected. They're not in power and they don't deserve to be in my opinion because they were a miserable failure and stole trillions from the country.

I've focused my comments on things that Mr. Chavez (the one who does hold the power now) has said that have alarmed the hell out of me. I happen to be one who is suspicious of all politicians, whether they're singing sweet music to my ears or not.

Throwing opposition straw men at the subject in no way helps your cause, whatever that may be.

When listening to him, I constantly place myself in the shoes of all Americans, left and right, and try to imagine how we'd react to our elected President saying some of the things he does.

Perhaps it's just cultural, I don't know, but I don't really think so. The quotes are there, and I have the time to track them down. It may take a while, but I'll find them for you.

[Judi Lynn]

118. I'd appreciate that.

Please provide complete context, with links. English, of course.

[LinuxInsurgent]

119. that's because

the recall referendum wasn't a legitimate exercise in popular democracy...it was a witchhunt instigated by the Venezuelan Right, middle classes, and some of the poor who were either enticed (through the benefits of association with the Rich Venezuelans) or deluded (through the false demonization in the Venezuelan press) into supporting the effort. That recall was as legitimate as the recall process in California...

I consider only spontaneous, popular revolts (of the type experienced when Chavez was overthrown...and the poor of Caracas spontaneously converged on the National Palace to demand his return) to be legitimate.

Chavez's government is not innocently pure...no government can be. He took note of those who participated in the purely Venezuelan Right and foreign ally driven recall process...and I consider them traitors to the Venezuelan people.

To oppose Chavez is not treasonous...but to ally oneself with foreign intelligence agencies (CIA), receive their funding for your press agencies, your opposition organizations, and coordinate a coup attempt with them IS. The Venezuelan Opposition, no matter the legitimacy of their complaints against Chavez, has to live with the stain of treason that marks them, from the days they consorted with American interests in overthrowing Chavez. They lost all legitimacy, from my point of view, when they did that. Let them submit to the majority will of the Venezuelan people now...

[Blue to the bone]

123. You're not paying attention.........

........to the Venezuelan Constitution that Chavez pushed through the legislature when you say the following:

<<the recall referendum wasn't a legitimate exercise in popular democracy>>

because the right to organize a national recall is specifically written in the constitution and can be held at the mid-point of the President's term. And there are terms and conditions as to how it's to be held. Those terms and conditions were met.

An earlier 'recall petition' submitted shortly after the coup was clearly invalid and did not pass constitutional muster. Hence a second one was held that meet constitutional norms.

Sorry, but that's a fact and whether we agree with the reasons it was held or not, it was legal in every sense of the word.

And as for your other comments about those Venezuelans who legally took part in the recall process being traitors, that's the kind of language that scares the hell out of me and many Venezuelans as well. It's that sort of language that leads to vigilante rule, especially if it comes from leaders. Perhaps you think that's okay, but I doubt it.

[IndianaGreen]

146. Remember when Noriega declared war on the United States?

Actually, Noriega never said that, it was the American press that reported that Noriega had declared war on the United States, and Poppy Bush was more than happy to repeat it as justification for his criminal invasion of Panama.

I was in the area at the time and I clearly remember a speech given by Noriega in which he brandished a machete. Noriega said that the provocations by the US against Panama were such that it seems as war had been declared (by the US). The CNN reporter, to his eternal shame, translated that to mean that Noriega was declaring war on the US. (I always suspected that CNN was a willing accomplice with CIA in the toppling of Noriega).

To those sheep that believe to this day that Noriega was involved in narco-trafficking, I will point out that there are more drugs coming through Panama now than there ever were under Noriega. Noriega's crime is that he turned against his former employer.

Seeing the US accuse Noriega of murdering General Torrijos is like having Don Corleone accuse one of his capos of murder, after the capo carried out the wishes of his Mafia don.

[LinuxInsurgent]

99. thank you for this history...

opponents of Fidel, Chavez, and the Sandinistas forget the utter monsters before them (Perez, Batista, and Somoza).

[Judi Lynn]

102. Isn't that the truth? Their stories are so much more dramatic

and easy to buy when you don't know the facts. Finding out the truth is strictly up to citizens who are willing to start looking around for themselves, as it surely is incompatible with the propaganda crap we believe, in our original ignorance, and a lot harder to discover!

[LinuxInsurgent]

61. Chavez no es su hijo

Chavez no es su hijo...Chavez gano su posicion con elecciones...elecciones que la ONU y Jimmy Carter dijeron que eran justas.

Piensa lo quieras pensar...pero Chavez NO ES un dictador...el es un Presidente Izquierdista...que es electo.

English Translation:

Chavez is not his son....Chavez won his position through elections...elections that the U.N. and Jimmy Carter said were "just".

Think what you want to think...but Chavez is not a dictator...he is a Leftist President...who was elected.

[Blue to the bone]

71. Of course Chavez is not his son, but.....

.....many in Venezuela refer to him as such and believe that once he's sure the majority are no longer with him, he'll declare martial law "for the good of the people".

As for the elections and Carter's blessings that were passed upon them, you might want to dig a bit deeper on how some of the results were confirmed by Carter et al. Seems the Bush Administration took a page out of Chavez's playbook.

[LinuxInsurgent]

78. let that happen...

when he does declare "martial law" then the people of Venezuela have the full right to depose him...and the International community can shun him. Until then..it's rumor and innuendo...and so far, Chavez has been indicating that, contrary to the beliefs that he's planning a anti-democratic step, he's been democratizing the economy, the Constitution, and access to politics for the people. So far...he hasn't made the Fidelista mistake of making the state a one-party system.

I applaud Chavez for having the patience to carry out his Bolivarian revolution, even with the provocations of the Venezuelan Right and the U.S., and not revert to martial law. There's a long line of "failed" democratic left revolutions in Latin America...all of them overthrown by ruthless right-wing elements in their countries with the aid of the CIA (Juan Arbenz-Guatemala, Allende-Chile, Bosch-Dominican Republic, etc.), so i'm sure that this threat is not lost on Chavez.

In the world of politics, one has to defend oneself. Chavez is correctly keeping the democratic character of his revolution, while taking the necessary governmental steps to protect it from the ruthless and thoroughly anti-democratic Carmona-types in his country. Don't be naive...he Chavez doesn't use the State's power to limit the power of the opposition (in legal ways), he will become another Juan Arbenz or Allende, he will be overthrown (an attempt was made), and he will be killed.

Let's not talk of Chavez's "dictatorial possibilities" in far future...let's talk about the ruthlessness of the Venezuelan right TODAY, RIGHT NOW...this reality...not a future reality.

[0007]

81. Your the one that needs to get real!

How come the United States supported Batista before Castro? And Somoza's Nicaragua, Armas's Guatemala, Pinochet's Chile, and Dualier's Hati as as in El Salvador and other countries in Latin America.

The folks in Cuba love Castro! He wasn't half as bad as the dictator Fulgencio Batista.

[mutus_frutex]

116. Where the hell did you learn spanish??? nt

[Judi Lynn]

161. Possibly the George W. Bush Language School.

I've heard Spanish-speaking people say his Spanish is unbelievable, as well!

[mutus_frutex]

164. I speak spanish.

And I can also tell you that he is awful...

For the most part, politicians trying to talk to spanish-speakers sound downright stupid. Even some democrats.. :-)

Cheers..

[IndianaGreen]

135. Franco was a Fascist that got to power with the help of Hitler, Mussolini,

and the reactionary Spanish Catholic Church, the same Church that would give birth to Opus Dei.

There is no comparison between Fidel and Franco, not even in height!

[Joe Chi Minh]

149. So Franco

provided health and education for all, did he, Dumbo!

I seem to remember Laurie Lee relating the plight of a one-legged man living on a hillside with his wife and a bed(!) of all things - his sole possession - in an autobiographical book of his, under el Caudillo's tender ministrations. You'll probably be homeless before you know it, you dumb freepers.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Itsthetruth]

15. Find Out The Truth About Cuba

Don't fall for all the right-wing anti-Cuban propaganda. As you can see by several posts here, even some well-intentioned progressives and liberals have been afflicted by decades of disinformation and misinformation spread by right-wing forces.

Cuba's record on human rights is certainly better than Bush's.

Keep an open mind and take a look at these websites to get more balanced news and information on Cuba. That's the only way you can find out more about life in Cuba and the positions of the Cuban government and leaders.

Granma International/English Edition Government Newspaper

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html

Prensa Latina/Latin American News Agency In Cuba

http://www.plenglish.com /

[rwenos]

16. "Right Wing Forces"

Like Jack and Bobby Kennedy.

[Itsthetruth]

21. Would You Believe George Bush?

I think it's reasonable to describe Bush as a leader of right-wing forces.

---------------------------------------------------------------
January 12, 2004
Rome - (Prensa Latina)

Pope John Paul II calls on Bush to end the Cuban Embargo


Pope John Paul II once again called for an end to the over 40 year-old US economic blockade on Cuba, adding that the island needs proper conditions for its development. At a ceremony to welcome the new Cuban ambassasor to the Vatican, the Pope said that "The Holy See strongly desires that obstacles which block free communication and exchange between the Cuban nation and part of the international community be overcome soon. " "This way the conditions necessary for real development will be reinforced through open and respectful dialogue with everyone," noted the Holy Father, who has traditionally spoken out against Washington´s pressures on Havana.

The US stepped up its agressive measures against Cuba last June, by barring Cuban-Americans from travelling yearly to their country of origin, allowing them to go every three years instead, and establishing new limits on the amount of money they can remit and the relatives they can visit in the island. Also, Washington sought to stop Cuba from making purchases in US dollars abroad and using the greenback in bank transactions. The Pope made a historic visit to Cuba in 1998, when he was welcome by both the top leadership and masses of Catholics and the Cuban population in general.

[rwenos]

26. Yes, Bush is a Crypto-Fascist, but

Jack Kennedy certainly was not, and his administration recognized Castro for what he was -- ultimately, a generalissimo and a strongman. That's why I compared him earlier to Franco. Mirror image, same outcome -- martial law.

Just because Bush's people are right about Castro (as have been all American administrations since January 1, 1959), doesn't mean that Castro is good. Bush = bad. Castro = bad.

[Itsthetruth]

33. Right About Cuba?

Right about the Cuban Revolution in what sense? I don't they every president from Eisenhower to George W. Bush has had the same identical position on Cuba, the Cuban Revolution and Cuban leaders such as Fidel Castro.

However, I think as a result of the embargo on news about Cuba, the restrictions on the right of Americans to visit Cuba and the general half centtury long right-wing hysteria against Cuba, it would be difficult for anyone to learn what Cuba is really like.

If you can't visit Cuba to see for yourself, at least check out the websites I posted. I think you will find them informative and interesting.

[rwenos]

37. Right to Confront Castro

He's a dictator. His country is not a democracy. American presidents have had several different approaches, but one commonality. Castro is a dictator. His country is not a democracy.

Want to help Castro's image in America? Get him to hold elections.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ckramer]

157. Yet there are 40 million plus people live in poverty in US, so what's the

big deal of being a democracy?

[Joe Chi Minh]

150. Better life

under a humane despot than the kind of freedom that got the Devil thrown out of Heaven: anarchy and chaos.

[Judi Lynn]

50. A lot of DU'ers are very well acquainted with the news Kennedy & Castro

were pursuing a new dialogue at the end of Kennedy's life. We've discussed it here quite a bit, already.

"New" documents have been released concerning the fact there was movement to bring Cuba into the orbit of the U.S. which was the plan Kennedy was considering before some deviant decided to cancel the American public's election of President Kennedy altogether. Here's a look at some of the information a lot of Americans have already been thinking about for quite a while:

Kennedy Sought Dialogue with Cuba

INITIATIVE WITH CASTRO ABORTED BY ASSASSINATION,
DECLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS SHOW

Oval Office Tape Reveals Strategy to hold clandestine Meeting in Havana; Documents record role of ABC News correspondent Lisa Howard as secret intermediary in Rapprochement effort

Posted - November 24, 2003

Washington D.C. - On the 40th anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and the eve of the broadcast of a new documentary film on Kennedy and Castro, the National Security Archive today posted an audio tape of the President and his national security advisor, McGeorge Bundy, discussing the possibility of a secret meeting in Havana with Castro. The tape, dated only seventeen days before Kennedy was shot in Dallas, records a briefing from Bundy on Castro's invitation to a U.S. official at the United Nations, William Attwood, to come to Havana for secret talks on improving relations with Washington. The tape captures President Kennedy's approval if official U.S. involvement could be plausibly denied.

The possibility of a meeting in Havana evolved from a shift in the President's thinking on the possibility of what declassified White House records called "an accommodation with Castro" in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Proposals from Bundy's office in the spring of 1963 called for pursuing "the sweet approach…enticing Castro over to us," as a potentially more successful policy than CIA covert efforts to overthrow his regime. Top Secret White House memos record Kennedy's position that "we should start thinking along more flexible lines" and that "the president, himself, is very interested in ." Castro, too, appeared interested. In a May 1963 ABC News special on Cuba, Castro told correspondent Lisa Howard that he considered a rapprochement with Washington "possible if the United States government wishes it. In that case," he said, "we would be agreed to seek and find a basis" for improved relations.
(snip)

Among the key documents relevant to this history:

• Oval Office audio tape, November 5, 1963. The tape records a conversation between the President and McGeorge Bundy regarding Castro's invitation to William Attwood, a deputy to UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson, to come to Cuba for secret talks. The President responds that Attwood should be taken off the U.S. payroll prior to such a meeting so that the White House can plausibly deny that any official talks have taken place if the meeting leaks to the press.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Mr. Donovan's Trip to Cuba," March 4, 1963. This document records President Kennedy's interest in negotiations with Castro and his instructions to his staff to "start thinking along more flexible lines" on conditions for a dialogue with Cuba.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Cuba -- Policy," April 11, 1963. A detailed options paper from Gordon Chase, the Latin America specialist on the National Security Council, to McGeorge Bundy recommending "looking seriously at the other side of the coin-quietly enticing Castro over to us."
  (snip/...)

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB103/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Published September/October 1999

JFK & Castro: The Secret Quest For Accommodation
Recently Declassified U.S. government Documents Reveal That, at the Height of the Cold War, John F. Kennedy and Fidel Castro Were Exploring Ways To Normalize U.S.-Cuba Relations

by Peter Kornbluh


In February 1996, Robert Kennedy Jr. and his brother, Michael, traveled to Havana to meet with Fidel Castro. As a gesture of goodwill, they brought a file of formerly top secret U.S. documents on the Kennedy administration's covert exploration of an accommodation with Cuba--a record of what might have been had not Lee Harvey Oswald, seemingly believing the president to be an implacable foe of Castro's Cuba, fired his fateful shots in Dallas. Castro thanked them for the file and shared his "impression that it was intention after the missile crisis to change the framework" of relations between the United States and Cuba. "It's unfortunate," said Castro, that "things happened as they did, and he could not do what he wanted to do."
(snip)

In March 1963, Cuban minister Raul Roa Garcia sent a letter to U.N. Secretary General U Thant hinting that Cuba was interested in friendly relations with the United States. European businessmen returning from Havana told CIA sources that Castro wanted to deal with Washington. By June 5, the CIA had accumulated a half-dozen intelligence reports, according to a secret summary by Deputy Director Richard Helms, "suggesting Cuban interest in a rapprochement with the United States."

The first private channel through which Castro directly transmitted this message was James Donovan, a New York lawyer negotiating the release of the Bay of Pigs prisoners. In the late fall of 1962, Donovan became the first American emissary to gain Castro's ear, and his trust. Secretly representing the Kennedy brothers, Donovan arranged a trade of $53 million in food and medicine for the Bay of Pigs captives; in early 1963, he continued his trips to Havana to secure the release of two dozen American citizens, including three CIA operatives, held in Cuban jails.

Debriefed by U.S. intelligence officials after each trip, Donovan described his meetings with Castro as "most cordial and intimate." In late January 1963, as he was boarding his plane to return to the United States, Donovan reported, Castro's physician and aide-de-camp, Rene Vallejo, "broached the subject of re-establishing diplomatic relations with the U.S." Vallejo also extended Castro's invitation for Donovan to return to Havana for further talks "about the future of Cuba and international relations in general."

In early March, a State Department official suggested that Donovan be instructed to tell Castro that breaking Cuban relations with the Sino-Soviet bloc was a nonnegotiable U.S. demand for improved relations. But Kennedy overruled him. "The President does not agree that we should make the breaking of Sino/Soviet ties a non-negotiable point," stated a Top Secret/Eyes Only memorandum recording Kennedy's instructions to security adviser Bundy. "We don't want to present Castro with a condition that he obviously cannot fulfill. We should start thinking along more flexible lines."
(snip/...)

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,320,00.html

[Massacure]

17. U.S. human rights at home aren't that far in the gutter yet.

Cuba has it's perks over the U.S. That doesn't mean they are better at everything.

[Say_What]

28. LOL Please, check your history

Start with Latin America--now there's a human rights record to be proud of--NOT--and a TORTURE school to go along with it--School of the Americas aka WHISC. Oh yeah, a stellar record!

In Latin America alone over 30 major CIA/US backed coups. Hundreds of thousands in LatAm DEAD and DISAPPEARED and you don't think "U.S. human rights at home aren't that far in the gutter yet". WOW!! now that is so f*ck'n naive it's pathetic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=107079&mesg_id=107160

---

<clips>

America's Amnesia

...Americans are "very naïve," she says. "They don't want to see" the involvement of the United States in torture over the years. The Abu Ghraib scandal "is nothing new," she says. "This has been happening behind your eyes for many years."

The United States likes to see itself with a halo on its head, and whenever a revelation like Abu Ghraib or My Lai surfaces, U.S. citizens tend to shrug it off as an anomaly. When you look at the last fifty years of U.S. history, it is anything but.

From Greece to Iran to Indonesia to Vietnam and throughout Latin America, the U.S. government has been complicit in the torture or murder of hundreds of thousands of people.

"If we had photographs of what our so-called allies in Honduras and El Salvador and Chile were doing, based on training they had received from us in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, the American public would have been even more horrified," says Peter Kornbluh of the National Security Archive in Washington, D.C. This was torture by proxy, but it was at the direction of Washington. "The only difference between this kind of conduct now and in the past is that there wasn't somebody with a digital camera back then keeping track of what was going on," says Kornbluh.

http://www.progressive.org/july04/roth0704.html

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rose Siding]

58. There's a load. Mature love is NOT blind adoration

You write: "This self hatred of your own country (I presume you live in the USA) is pathological."

This assertion is erroneous.

Would you have the patient love his gall stones? One may be critical of their own greying hair and decide either to live with it or change it. But that third nipple....

A beloved child may have a nasty addiction. Hate the addiction!

[Say_What]

64. Bicycling in Cuba--Impressions of the Cubans and Their Island

Interesting website with lots of photos on the following topics:

Meeting the Cuban People
Learning About Cuba
History from a Bicycle Seat
Conditions: Food and Agriculture
Conditions: Housing and Health
Conditions: Education

<clips>

...Like the rest of this website, the following section reflects impressions mixed with occasional facts gained in several weeks of traveling by bike -- not systematic research. That said, what kind of conditions did we see in Cuba in 2000? We'll look at food, housing, medicine, and education.

...There seems to be a powerful sense of community in Cuba, a sense of the nation as a family. When this photo was taken at the town square in Bayamo, several pigs were being roasted nearby. Chairs and tables were soon set out on the sidewalks. After dark, the square filled with people -- children playing with balloons at 10:00 p.m., little carts pulled by goats circling round the square, taking the children for rides -- and always, loud music from every direction. It seemed that everyone in town was there, and it was a regular Saturday night event.

...Housing seemed to us to be a mixed success -- certainly not the dismal failure generally reported in U.S. media. After the revolution, government concentrated on improving life in rural areas, and that was the right thing to do because conditions in the countryside had been terrible.

...Medical care is a more clear-cut success story. There are clinics like this one virtually everywhere. Each Cuban family is assigned a doctor, rather like the primary care physicians in U.S. managed-care schemes. The statistics are impressive. Cuban life expectancy is about the same as in the U.S., and infant mortality rates are lower than in some U.S. cities.

..To us, education seemed to the be the most impressive success of the revolution. This is one of the small, rural schools that are everywhere in the country. Whatever the revolutionary government's failings may be, we do not question its commitment to education.

http://www.bicyclingcuba.com/bikecuba/overview.htm

[LinuxInsurgent]

60. for his human rights record

look at Bush's

I don't want to get in the middle of a pro and against Castro flame war...I don't like dictatorships, and unelected governments...but Castro, on the scheme of things, is as benevolent a dictator as they come. His "human rights" records is pure gold compared to the U.S. in Abu Ghraib, Nicaragua's Somoza, Dominican Republic's Trujillo, Chile's Pinochet, Iraq's Saddam Hussein, Cambodia's Pol Pot, Indonesia's Suharto, Phillipines' Marcos, etc.

I'm not about to get on a "let's get Castro" wagon...he's old, he'll pass away soon...and by and large, his legacy is one to be admired. yes, he's unelected and he's a dictator...but who is perfect in this world? His health, education, and other foreign policy iniatives have been admirable...he stands for the sovereignty of the Third World, and his rectitude in talking about global warming, warfare, and poverty, and disease ALONE are worthy of praise.

I hope he passes away soon...and Cuba gets a chance to democratically elect a new leader...but I'm not gonna put Fidel on the same plank as Mao, Stalin, and Kim Jong Il....just because he's Communist doesn't mean he's on the same level.

Read Tad Sculcz' "Fidel" biography...best and most unbiased biography on him...learn about his life.

[leesa]

68. Yes...and then let's look at the record of the United States.

And most particularily their mass murders for 50 years or more in wars they concoct. Who's the greater murderer??

[tsuki]

48. True. He has extended the life of the average Cuban. They have

universal health, dental and education. Life for the average Cuban is better than under the Batistas.

From friends in Europe who have visited, I have heard great things. It is clean and friendly.

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

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[chlamor]

38. Peak Oil-Low Energy Lifestyles and Lessons from Cuba

Foreign policy is best looked at through the lens of deeds. Cuba sends doctors and teachers, the US sends jet fighters and military weapons. Much of the dilemma in Cuba should be seen through the historical perspective of colonialism. Despite all that the US has attempted in the way of theft of dignity from the Cubans they are doing quite well, thank you. As energy sources dwindle we would be wise to listen and learn from the Cuban experiment in low energy living. More on peak oil and solutions being implemented in Cuba from Pat Murphy here:

"My view is that the best response to peak oil is to change the American way of life. Let's change our lifestyle. Our presidents say the American way of life is not negotiable. I don't really think it's a question of negotiation. You don't exactly negotiate with a hurricane or a typhoon. If this is the way nature is going to handle it, then we must adapt to it. This is simply a new way of life that is a low-energy lifestyle. It's said that humans have been around for 7,000 or 15,000 years. Charlie Stevens in his Agrarian talk pointed out that we didn't have any trouble with agriculture until 50 years ago. So I don't think there's any question that we're going to become sustainable. It's just a question of how we are going to do it."
<snip>
"Now I get to talk about something I love. When I first heard about Cuba, I tried to figure out how to go there, and of course, the government forbids most travel. But I finally got there through the Global Exchange program. Cuba is unique in the world today. We're talking about our oil use and reducing it, worry if it will be 2% or 3% per year – or even 5%? Cuba reduced their oil use over 50% in one year. Castro announced on that things were going to be a little difficult and one week later, the oil tankers from Russia stopped coming in. There was no idea of "we should take six months and think this through." They got very little warning. Per capita energy use in Cuba is now running between 1/15th and 1/20th of the U.S. per capita use. Cuba is changing from an industrial to an agrarian society. Sometimes you'll hear them speak or write about a modernized peasantry. They realized they had little choice. So they're now deep into and not lamenting the fact that they are moving more and more away from industrialism and more towards agrarianism. In doing that, they put a lot of their efforts into things like biotechnology, not genetic engineering. They asked how can you come up with a better worm for worm castings, and how can you deal with this field over here in west Cuba that has a particular infestation."

"Part of the issue is determining what we are going to do in a low energy world. If I'm not worried about the next car or the addition to the house and getting the latest fashion styles, what am I going to think about? Cuba is focused on building human resources. They decided to invest in the people. They have excellent medical care, with far more doctors per capita than we do. Teaching is a major priority for them. So their goal is have really top notch medical care, great schools, and we're many sports programs. So their national strategy is to focus on sports which helps health and team work and is very low energy. You get out and run a few miles every day and you get better, and then you have a contest."
<snip>
"The Cuban food changes were very interesting. They became involuntary vegetarians. Older Cubans do not always like the new diets. Traditionally they liked pork, but pork was in short supply. I asked one man his views on the food. He said he did not like it but he knew it was a healthier diet and his daughter was eating in a healthier way and enjoying it. They've increased their vegetable and starch consumption. They have decreased their wheat and rice production, because this is a green revolution crop and requires a lot of energy inputs. But in recent years, they've learned how to grow rice without high energy inputs. So rice is making a comeback."
<snip>
"The urban gardens are fascinating. Small farms are everywhere. A huge part of the land is under cultivation. If a person sees an empty plot of land in Havana and wants to farm it, they just write a business plan and submit it to the government. The government reviews the business plan and if it is reasonable – it's theirs to farm."
<snip>
"Cuba had to innovate rapidly when their oil supplies were halted. There was no time or money for light rail or any other development. They had to do something quick and cheap. They added incentives to agriculture, incorporated some free market principles, paying people well if they did well. It was a major change from the socialist system. The government stopped regulating many things. The change was much more of a social transformation than a technical one. There was no major move to solar panels or wind turbines although there are a few such devices. The transition worked to a great extent because of the Cuban focus cooperation. Competition is not their principal social driver, but rather cooperation, certainly an example of community spirit. I once wrote a long letter about Cuba to an energy web site pointing out what they had achieved. I got a response that they were socialists, and that's the only reason they survived and Americans won't do that. This was an amazing retort. I then sent these same people the address for the Fellowship of Intentional Communities, which is a great place for community information. Messages came back pointing out they too were socialist and communists. Some people would rather die than modify the American economic way of life."
Entire article at:
http://www.energybulletin.net/4381.html

[The_Nick]

44. Thanks for that.

I've always been weary of falling in line with with government, even when there is bipartisan support for a demonization. Most recently coming to mind would be Venezuela, where Chavez seems to be taking the spot of Castro.

And please keep in mind, all those calling Castro a "dictator" for not having "elections". The ONLY reason Venezuela had elections was because the US had access to give serious funding to opposition groups putting out anti-Chavez propaganda, and Chavez STILL won. We had no such luxury in Cuba after Castro came to power, hence the failed Bay of Pigs.

I'm in FL. I'm sure I'll be the only one swimming there once the big bombs start falling.

[blindpig]

57. Cuba is where I want to be

when Peak Oil smacks the world upside the head. That is one place that will not degenerate into chaos or feudalism. Denial is such a wide, deep river. Americans cannot, will not, imagine a world without free form consumption. It's going to be an ugly shock.

[Say_What]

70. What they did with bicycles during the Special Period was amazing

They bought nearly a million bikes from China and then with typical Cuban ingenuity...

<clips>

...In the wake of this transportation crisis has come a huge increase in bicycles. In 1990, Habaneros used their roughly 70,000 bicycles mostly for recreation and sport. By 1993, Havana had 700,000 bicycles and 1000 cargo tricycles, mostly purchased from China. Today, bicycles are used mainly for commuting. Unlike in China, though, Cuba has not had a bicycle culture. No road space had been dedicated to non-motorized vehicles before the 'Special Period,' nor were there traffic signs or data.

With the Special Period, however, all this began to change. The Chinese models Phoenix, Forever, and Flying Pigeon can now be bought on installment plans for from between $60 pesos for students to $120 pesos for workers. In deflated 1995 real dollars, this ranges from $1 to $2 USD.

Some of the side-effects of the shift to the bicycle include less air pollution in Havana, greater commuting time for workers, and a proliferation of private sector bicycle repair and parking services. When Fidel Castro legalized more than 100 private sector occupations in July of 1993, employment in bicycle cottage industries grew rapidly. Tire repair services, bicycling parking lots, and mechanical repair shops continue to proliferate throughout Havana, and employ many workers idled by public down-sizing and factory closings. Last year the kind of bicycle taxis common in South Asia surfaced in the Vedado tourist district for foreigners seeking a ride along the Malecon or the tree-covered side streets of Vedado and Miramar. Tourists can also rent bicycles and jump into the fray themselves.

The big increase in demand for bicycles has had considerable spill-over effects on the Cuban economy. Although China has been the main supplier of bicycles to Cuba, Cuba is increasingly building more of its own bicycles and components. In 1990 the Giron bus factory in Havana was refit and retooled for the manufacture of bicycles. After its first year of operation it produced approximately 20,000 bicycles. Projected production for 1995 is 100,000 bicycles. Cubans can now manufacture all components except spokes, bearings, the rear hub and chains, and heavy-gauge seamless pipe, which comes from Mexico. The Cuban 26" wheeled bicycle is about 15 pounds lighter than the 57 lb. Chinese models and better suited for multiple purposes than the 28" Asian wheel. Cuban bikes also come in a variety of colors (now in 12 tropical varieties), and most use the all-terrain type straight handlebar.

http://www.culturechange.org/bicycling.htm

[Vladimir]

167. Fascinating

"Concrete solutions to concrete problems..."

[proudbluestater]

43. The older I get, the more sense he makes!

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[0007]

85. Yes it is something that the US has a hard learning.

A brief look at history is enough to make one skeptical. How can you explain our frequent interventions in Central America before 1917? How could we explain our taking control of Cuba and Puerto Rico in 1898; our seizure of the Canal Zone in 1903; our dispatch of marines to Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, and Guatemala in the early 1900's; our bombardment of a Mexican town in 1914; our long military occupation Haiti and the Dominican Republic starting in 1915 and 1916?

Fulgencio Batista was a brutal dictator and the United States supported him before Castro knocked him on his ass. Go figure! And you may try a little wisdom.

[chlamor]

45. Cuba and Venezuela are bad examples-sovereignty and dignity

Perusing the web today I came across a few articles which give meaning to all the struggles we are embroiled in and/or blessed with. In these days of the American Military State it can be difficult to see any rays of hope. For me it helps to turn my gaze southward towards the peoples movement(s) in Latin America, particularly the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. This article, by Les Blough, gave me a bit of sustenance in the otherwise arid political arena here in El Norte. It will be the first of several articles which will draw from his recent visit to Venezuela where he spent time with folks on the ground. Let us hope that the spirit of the movement in Venezuela finds its way to higher latitudes. Here are a few excerpts:

"I touched the revolution and its current runs through the people with such vibrancy that one cannot escape the life that emanates from its center."
<snip>
"It is not difficult to see that Lugar and his team of thugs have finally begun to learn a few things about guerrilla warfare.  But why the sudden concern about conventional arms in Latin America?  Why is the most powerful nation on earth so threatened by this Latin American country?  There are an number of reasons. Reasons that are as clear as they are simple: 
• The eyes of the world are watching the social development, economic growth and the power of the successful democracy in The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela - and once people have tasted real democracy, they never turn back.  For 40 years the corrupt regimes in Venezuela had kept 80% of the people in abject poverty.  Under Chavez, poverty is still quite evident, particularly in the barrios.  But life is getting better.  My soon-to-be-published interviews with poor people will show that to be the case.  When you are with them, you can see it in their incomes and in their faces.  Cheap labor has always been the darling of the empire's capitalists."
<snip>

"President Chavez is spiritually, intellectually and morally connected to Simon Bolivar, the great revolutionary leader who liberated Venezuela from Spanish rule in the 19th century. He is not only a truly democratic leader and brilliant military strategist.  He is also an informed historian. As such, he has also learned a great deal about U.S. interference in the domestic affairs of Latin American countries."
www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/printer_15785.shtml

[The_Nick]

47. Nice post!

Axis of Logic is a great site.

[Blue to the bone]

75. Hopefully Chavez can figure out how to do something about....

.....out-of-control inflation, increasing unemployment and under-employment, sky rocketing crime, and the flight of businesses that once gave consumers many more options than they have today.

He has brought much-needed medical care to hundreds of thousands, many of whom never had it before. He's also brought hope to many that never had it before. Unfortunately "hope" doesn't put food on the table.

The Venezuelan people may indeed continue to support him such that he'll be a democratically-elected President for life. I still believe though, that one way or the other, he intends to be President for life.

[Rose Siding]

79. There is good reason for hope

Associated Press
Venezuela Economy Up 17.3 Percent in 2004
02.16.2005, 02:25 PM
...
Venezuela's economy grew a record 17.3 percent last year amid strong growth in the manufacturing, construction and transportation sectors, the Central Bank announced Wednesday.

"The accumulated growth in 2004 was 17.3 percent, which constitutes the highest level since the Central Bank began calculating this indicator," the bank announced in a statement.

Venezuela's economy, which is highly dependent on oil production and exports, contracted by 9.2 percent in 2003, largely due to a two-month strike that failed to oust President Hugo Chavez.
...
Construction posted the highest growth, at 31.8 percent during 2004, followed by the manufacturing sector, which grew by 25.7 percent.

http://www.forbes.com/business/energy/feeds/ap/2005/02/16/ap1831889.html

Venezuela leads Economic Growth in Latin America
Friday, Dec 17, 2004
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1449

[Blue to the bone]

143. Without a major drop in oil prices........

...2005 could be even better. There's still a long way to go, but as you say, there is good reason for hope.

[Judi Lynn]

51. N.Y. Times Cuba reporter died, and we didn't even hear about it.

Here's a small LTTE for the DU'ers who've read his articles for years::

Posted on Fri, Feb. 18, 2005

Marquis and Cuba

I was saddened to learn of the untimely death of Christopher Marquis (Reporter had a love for Latin America, Feb. 13). I met Chris in the late 1980s when he was a Herald reporter and I a consultant for the paper. Chris was one of the first Herald reporters to develop a true expertise on Cuba and the Cuban-American community, not because he had to as part of his beat, but because he took pride in his work and was genuinely interested in Cuban issues. He maintained this interest even after moving from Miami and taking a position with The New York Times.

He took my class on Cuban culture and society, and I always welcomed his calls when he was working on a story. He invariably posed knowledgeable and incisive questions. It seems only a year or so ago that we last talked about developments in the political landscape of Cuban Americans. He will be missed by all who care about professionalism in the coverage of Cuba and Latin America.

LISANDRO PEREZ, New York City

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/10930262.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Christopher Marquis, 43, Times Reporter, Dies
By THE NEW YORK TIMES

Published: February 12, 2005

Christopher Marquis, a reporter in the Washington bureau of The New York Times, died yesterday in San Francisco. He was 43.

He had been staying at the home of a brother, Matthew, who said the cause of death was AIDS.

Christopher Marquis, whose specialty was Latin American politics, joined The Times in 2000 from the Washington bureau of Knight-Ridder Newspapers, where he was chief foreign affairs writer. Before that, he was a foreign correspondent for The Miami Herald, focusing on Cuba and Central America.

Mr. Marquis was born on Nov. 13, 1961, in Marin County, Calif.

He graduated from the University of California at Berkeley in 1984 with a bachelor's degree in literature, and earned a master's degree in journalism from the Graduate School of Journalism at Columbia University. He was a Nieman fellow at Harvard in 1998 and 1999.

His novel, "A Hole in the Heart" (St. Martin's), about a lonely teacher in Alaska dealing with the untimely death of her husband, was published in 2003 to favorable reviews. He had taken a leave of absence from The Times several months ago to work on a second novel.

In addition to his brother Matthew, Mr. Marquis is survived by his parents, Harold and Nancy Marquis of Santa Rosa, Calif.; another brother, Jeff, of Santa Monica, Calif.; and a sister, Julie, of Claremont, Calif.
(snip/)

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/12/obituaries/12marquis.html?ex=1108962000&en=445246e5d151487b&ei=5070

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Media Fellow Christopher Marquis Speaks on U.S. Policy toward Cuba

Hoover media fellow Christopher Marquis, a reporter in the Washington bureau of the New York Times, spoke on the United States' policy toward Cuba in a Hoover Media Fellow Seminar on February 12.

In the twelve years he has spent reporting on Cuba, Marquis has seen the island nation change in significant ways.

"By necessity it has opened up to the rest of the world," he said. The American policy debate over Cuba, however, is "stuck on whether to impose more sanctions or ease the trade embargo."

Cuba has sought to engage the United States in recent years on policy issues of shared interest—drugs, the environment, and terrorism—but Washington, swayed by a strong anti-Castro lobby of Cuban exiles, has "rebuffed every overture."

"American policy toward Cuba is a failure." Marquis said. "The sooner we can admit it, the sooner we can prepare for what comes next."
(snip/...)

http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/newsletter/03022/media.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Judi Lynn]

82. Admiral Eugene Carroll visited Cuba, checked their defense system

discussed it in this short interview. There have been other high-ranking U.S. military officials who've gone there, too, in the 1990's, before our Miami gusano-pandering ass#### in the White House started trying to strangle Cuba, and destroyed what little person-to-person contact we had in 2001:

Interview
Admiral Eugene Carroll
February 19, 1998


ADM's Glenn Baker interviews Admiral Eugene Carroll USN (Ret.), the Deputy Director at the Center for Defense Information, for "Talking with Cuba"


MR. BAKER: Admiral, what was the purpose of the meetings you held with senior Cuban military officials last October?

MR. CARROLL: We went down to have free, candid, open discussions of the, let me start that over again. We went down to have free, open, very candid discussions with members of the Cuban military as well as members of the Cuban foreign ministry. We went to their war college, we went to some of the military bases. We wanted to get a clear picture of the Cuban posture, both militarily and diplomatically and also economically. I got a good look at elements of their economy, and we also wanted to provide information from our viewpoint up here. The Cubans have a hard time talking to our official representatives. We're not very communicative officially. So, when they can get a group who are here in Washington and who want to exchange information, they can get an idea of what's going on up here as we see it.

MR. BAKER: When you sat down with the Admiral Benton Corp and the others of the Ministry of the Armed Forces, the revolution, what were some of the issues, the key issues that they were most concerned with?

MR. CARROLL: The embargo. Helms Burton embargo is very, very high on their list of concerns, and it is hurting them. Of course, it hurts the Cuban people more than it hurts the government, but they are very troubled by the way in which we restrict their ability to trade with other nations. I think it's alright in their mind if the United States wants to be cut off, wants to cut itself off. But, they really are troubled by the restrictions we put on other nations trading with Cuba. They are very concerned about a thing called the Graham amendment. Senator Graham had introduced into the defense bill an amendment which declared Cuba an enemy of the United States and ordered the Pentagon to say that they had studied the Cuban military capabilities and had plans to deal with a threat from Cuba. Of course, this is ludicrous. Everyone knows that Cuba doesn't pose any military threat. They don't have the means to threaten the United States, and yet here was an official act of Congress declaring them an enemy. We had many discussions with many groups. It was widespread knowledge that this had happened, and tried to dissuade them of their concerns, pointing out that it was an act of a senator pandering to the Cuban emigres in Florida so that he could say that he had introduced the Graham amendment, and it didn't mean anything in the Pentagon or to the White House.
(snip/...)

http://www.cdi.org/adm/1127/Carroll.html



Admiral Carroll
on the big screen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER

NEW YORK, April 12 <2000> — THE CIA has long believed that while 1 million to 3 million Cubans would leave the island if they had the opportunity, the rest of the nation’s 11 million people would stay behind.

While an extraordinarily high number, there are still 8 million to 10 million Cubans happy to remain on the island.
(snip)

The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.

U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope.

More important, Cuban media and Cuban culture long ago raised the banner of nationalism above that of Marxism. The intelligence community says the battle over Elian has presented Castro with a “unique opportunity” to enhance that nationalism.

There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials.
(snip/...)http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.html

[Deja Q]

88. He's got chutzpah, all right...

The saddest part is, he's utterly correct in his accusations against the US.

[Itsthetruth]

154. Fidel Castro Is An Iron Fisted Dictator?

So how is Fidel Castro a "dictator". Is there a cult of personality in Cuba? Are people required to worship the man? Can people speak their views freely even if they might be critical of Fidel Castro or is anyone who disagrees with Fidel shot or at best placed in prison? Are not people elected to local councils and the national assembly? Is Cuba's Vice-President Alarcon also a bloodthirsty dictator?

I know what a dictatorship is like but this must be a novel one in Cuba. People just don't seem like they are under the boot heel of oppression. They might even be happy and their lives may be far better when they lived under the grip of a genuine dictator, Batista!

[Blue_Tires]

158. wow...we've been around the world twice

on tangents about Cuba and Venezuela policy...can we all agree that the Iraq invasion is a grave mistake based on a lie??

[Blue to the bone]

159. Yes, we can. n/t

[njdemocrat106]

162. I'm not a fan of the man at all, but...

sometimes, he says some things I totally agree with. (Maybe not his "brand of socialism", but definitely on his war views.)

[Judi Lynn]

163. Notice for any Wisconsin Cuba-watching DU'ers.....

Cuban film festival features variety of styles
(Posted: 2/18/2005)

Madison's Third Cuban Film Festival, sponsored by the Division of Continuing Studies and Edgewood College, will be held Feb. 24-March 4. A special guest, director Orlando Rojas, will present his latest film.

The festival, to be held on the UW-Madison and Edgewood campuses, will offer eight films, with English subtitles, produced on and off the island in 2003 and 2004. The films represent a variety of styles - historical drama, social comedy, animation and documentary - directed by established filmmakers and newcomers.

The themes include daily life in Cuba, love and social relationships, the effects of exile, gender and generational conflict, race relations, marginalized groups, music, pop culture and filmmaking.

A distinguished group of Cuban and film experts will lead discussions.
(snip/...)

http://www.news.wisc.edu/10721.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On edit: Adding more info.:

Cuba film fest coming


February 19, 2005

Madison's third Cuban Film Festival will be held Feb. 24-March 4 on the UW-Madison and Edgewood College campuses.

The festival will offer eight films with English subtitles, produced on and off the island in 2003 and 2004. The styles will include historical drama, social comedy, animation and documentary. Cuban director and critic Orlando Rojas will be a featured guest.

The registration fee is $40. Registered participants will receive a CD with all the materials from the festival and admittance to special events. Public admission to one session is free.

The festival schedule may be visited on the Web at https://mywebstace.wisc.edu/anoguera/c.htm. To register, call 262-2451.
(snip/)

http://www.madison.com/tct/news//index.php?ntid=29214&ntpid=5



The musicians: Compay Segundo, Eliades Ochoa, Ry Cooder, Joachim Cooder, Ibrahim Ferrer, Omara Portuondo, Rubén González, Orlando "Cachaíto" López, Amadito Valdéz, Manuel "Guajiro" Mirabal, Barbarito Torres, Pío Leyva, Manuel "Puntillita" Licea, Juan de marcos González.