Irish: Sinn Fein leaders also command IRA

[struggle4progress]

SHAWN POGATCHNIK

Associated Press


DUBLIN, Ireland - In an unprecedented charge, the Irish government Sunday publicly identified three of Sinn Fein's top figures, including party president, Gerry Adams, as members of the Irish Republican Army command.

The government's increasingly confrontational stance indicates it no longer will tolerate the IRA-linked Sinn Fein's long-held claim that its leaders should not be held accountable for IRA actions. The shift is intended to force the illegal IRA to disarm fully and disband or risk the legal Sinn Fein's enforced marginalization in politics.

Seeking to maintain good working relations with Sinn Fein's two key figures, successive Irish and British governments had previously declined to identify either Adams or Martin McGuinness, the party's de-facto deputy leader, as members of the IRA's seven-member command, called the "army council."

But during a live debate on a national radio station, Justice Minister Michael McDowell identified Adams, McGuinness and Martin Ferris as IRA army council members. McDowell berated what he called their "deep, deep dishonesty." <snip>

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/politics/10950020.htm

[Another Bill C.]

1. From the Irish Republican News

The Irish Republican News is a subscription service:
"Speaking on his return from Spain, Mr Adams said there was 'a
consensus among conservative elements that Sinn Fein presents a
threat to their vested interests, that Sinn Fein's growth
through democratic and peaceful means and support for this
party, the only all-Ireland party on this island, is what is
concerning them,' he said.

"'If there is a matter to be conducted by the gardai, whoever it
affects, that should be allowed its full course,' he added.

"'If you want to get to the nub of the current controversy and
crisis, it isn't a crisis within republicanism, it's a crisis of
confidence among the conservative parties and it's a crisis more
importantly of the peace process.'"

If and when the bank robbery mystery is solved it will make a good comedy. The money was issued by that particular bank and was easily made worthless. It is now being discovered in the possession of people on both political sides with all parties claiming it was planted.

[struggle4progress]

2. Yes. I don't sip my java while reading about this ...

... lest I spew all over my monitor.

The bank lost its shirt in foreign currency trading, was ripping off local customers with overcharges, and was being taken over by the Danes. Meanwhile, somehow, nobody paid the premiums, so the robbery losses weren't insured. The robbery was allegedly inspired by a George Higgins plot, and at one point authorities were blaming a shadowy master criminal, "The Striker." Finally, the money began allegedly showing up in the hands of known unionist money launderers. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=191x1514

In the last few days, at least one bank executive has been arrested with millions of pounds stashed away at home, and then quickly released; and the bank chief, who at least once had IRA ties, has resigned. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1250258

And a big chunk of cash has turned up at a police club, as the press tells stories of burning cash wafting through the air and a mysterious Bulgarian arms dealer. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1251185

With the different slants in worldwide coverage, depending on the paper, you'd never be able to tell you were reading about the same investigation.

[brentspeak]

3. Adams should be blaming himself

Gee, Gerry, do you think maybe all the years of IRA-sponsored violence (along with Unionist violence, but it takes two to tango) backfired on ya? The people of the Irish Republic merely have to turn on the TV, see all the burning cars and streets and death, and say "no thanks" to taking in N.Ireland. Can't say I blame them.

[struggle4progress]

4. the more I learn about this story, the more it looks to me like ...

... an inside job at a corrupt bank.

[Stella_Artois]

5. The IMC reckons it was the IRA

Ireland, Feb. 11 : Senior members of Sinn Fein sanctioned the IRA's multi-million dollar bank raid in December, the Independent Monitoring Commission reports

http://www.newkerala.com/news-daily/news/features.php?action=fullnews&id=70873

[struggle4progress]

9. I assume that this assertion is based on ...

the following IMC document. Of course, I really know absolutely nothing about this: the IMC could certainly be correct, but the lack of concrete information in the IMC makes me suspicious, and the excess of very colorful detail in the continuing reporting on this story strongly suggests manipulation to me.


FOURTH REPORT OF THE INDEPENDENT MONITORING COMMISSION
Presented to the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland under Articles 4 and 7 of the International Agreement establishing the Independent Monitoring Commission
Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 10th February 2005
HC 308 LONDON: The Stationery Office £4.50

© Crown Copyright 2005
The text in this document (excluding the Royal Arms and departmental logos) may be reproduced free of charge in any format or medium providing that it is reproduced accurately and not used in a misleading context. The material must be acknowledged as Parliamentary copyright and the title of the document specified.

Any enquiries relating to the copyright in this document should be addressed to The Licensing Division,HMSO, St Clements House, 2-16 Colegate, Norwich, NR3 1BQ.Fax: [phone] or e-mail: [e-mail] Printed in the UK by The Stationery Office Limitedon behalf of the Controller of Her Majesty’s Stationery Office 176502 02/05 19585 994445

INTRODUCTION 1. We submit this report on the robbery at the headquarters of the Northern Bank,Belfast, on 20 December 2004 exercising the powers made available to us in Articles 4 and 7 of the International Agreement establishing the Independent MonitoringCommission. Article 4 (c) enables us to submit reports to the British and IrishGovernments on an ad hoc basis if we see fit to do so. We believe that the circumstances of the robbery constitute such an occasion, and that it would not be right to await the presentation of our next full report on paramilitary activities before expressing our views. 2. This report accordingly considers the robbery and puts it into the context of what we believe are related incidents. We express our view about responsibility for the robbery and we make recommendations on measures that should be taken as a consequence. We recognise that in submitting an ad hoc report arising from a single incident we deal only with the group responsible. We cannot examine here the complete range of activity of that group, or of any other ones, and we do not consider associated issues of policy. We will cover that ground in the usual way in our nextfull six monthly Article 4 report, which we are due to present in April.

OUR APPROACH 3. We believe that the robbery demands a special report for a number of reasons. It was exceptionally serious. About £26.5m was stolen. It was a high risk crime which required careful and lengthy advance planning. It involved the violent abduction of two employees of the Northern Bank and the unlawful imprisonment of theirfamilies, who continue to suffer as a result. In addition there are many other secondary victims, not least other bank employees who face the fear that similar things might happen to them and their families. There have been a number of other similar crimes in recent months. The question of responsibility for the robbery has had a significant impact on affairs in Northern Ireland and very different views have been publicly expressed about it. The possible involvement of a paramilitary groupfalls squarely within our remit.

4.We have noted what has been said about responsibility for the robbery, both by theChief Constable of the PSNI and by others. It is however incumbent on us toundertake our own independent analysis and assessment on the basis of all theinformation we are able to acquire, and this we have done. We have obtained information from a variety of official and other sources in Northern Ireland and the South. As we indicated in our last report, we meet a large number of people 1. In view of the public comments of senior representatives of Sinn Féin about responsibility for the robbery, and in particular the public statement that they had received a denial of responsibility direct from members of the PIRA, we invited them to meet us and give us the benefit of their understanding. Sinn Féin have said that while they had no knowledge of who was responsible for the robbery, they did not believe it was the IRA; that Mr Martin McGuinness had asked the IRA if they were involved and had been assured they were not; and that they believed this denial, which has since been made public. In these circumstances, and in the light of their views about the IMC, they said they did not believe a meeting with us at this time would serve a useful purpose. We have taken these statements into account, though we regret that they have felt unable to accept our invitation. 5. We have benefited from the clarification which has emerged during the course of theinvestigation. We have probed the information we have received from all sources soas to satisfy ourselves that the conclusion we draw is well founded, and particularly that there are not alternative conclusions which might as reasonably be drawn from the same material. We recognise too that although at the time of completing our report the police have made no arrests there may be arrests in future and that it is essential that nothing we say could prejudice any criminal proceedings which might ensue. We are fully aware that we are not a criminal court and have very different procedures and evidential requirements. In our last report we noted that we had met the following categories of organisations and people in Ireland North and South: political parties; government officials; police; community groups, churches; charities; pressure groups and other organisations; businesses; lawyers; journalists; academics; private citizens, individually and as families. (Third Report, page 10).

THE ROBBERY AT THE NORTHERN BANK ON 20 DECEMBER 6.The robbery took place at the headquarters of the Northern Bank in Donegal Squarein central Belfast. It was a complex crime that was clearly the result of long andcareful planning. Two employees of the Northern Bank and their families were abducted on Sunday 19 December by individuals threatening violence with firearms, one at Poleglass on the outskirts of Belfast, and the other at Loughinisland, County Down, some 20 miles away. Under the threat that serious harm would be done to their families these employees were coerced into delivering the money to the robbers during the course of the following day. They and their families were released after the robbery. A number of people were involved in the abductions of the victims, in the actual robbery in central Belfast and in the removal and disposal of the cash. 7. We have carefully scrutinised all the material of different kinds that has become available to us since the robbery, which leads us to conclude firmly that it was planned and undertaken by the PIRA.

CONTEXT: OTHER INCIDENTS 8. In our third report, published by the two Governments on 4 November 2004, we commented on a number of major robberies which had taken place in Northern Ireland in the preceding months. We said that we believed PIRA was responsible for the major theft of goods at Dunmurry in May 2. We also concluded that members of republican paramilitary groups had been involved in recent large scale robbery andviolent theft, though we said that we could not yet make firmer attributions3. 9. Since completing work on that report we have been able to consider in depth the significant further material which has become available about some of these incidents. We conclude on the basis of the information available to us that PIRA was responsible for:

–The theft of goods at Makro in Dunmurry on 23 May (the incident to whichwe refer above);–The abduction of people and the robbery of goods from the Strabanebranch of Iceland on 26 September;–The abduction of people and the robbery of cigarettes with a market valueof approximately £2m from a bonded delivery vehicle in Belfast on 2October.10.It follows from this that the robbery at the Northern Bank, though by far the mostserious incident, was one of a series of crimes that have enabled PIRA to gain verysignificant resources in recent months. Violence or the threat of violence has been afeature of all these incidents. LEADERSHIP OF PIRA 11.We believe that the Northern Bank robbery and abductions and the other robberiesand abductions referred to above were carried out with the prior knowledge andauthorisation of the leadership of PIRA. IMPLICATIONS FOR SINN FÉIN 12. Parties to the Good Friday Agreement affirmed their total and absolute commitmentto exclusively peaceful and democratic means of resolving differences on politicalissues and their opposition to any use or threat of force by others for any politicalpurpose. The Agreement also requires that as a condition of appointment to the Executive, Ministers must affirm the terms of a pledge of office. That pledge includes a commitment to non-violence and exclusively peaceful and democratic means. The Northern Ireland Act 1998, as subsequently amended, provides for theapplication of a number of measures to a Minister or a party in the Assembly for non-fulfilment of that commitment. Specified measures are: exclusion of a Minister,Junior Minister or members of a political party from holding office; non-payment ofthe whole or part of their salary; non-payment of the whole or part of the financial assistance for a political party; and censure resolutions. Article 7 of the Agreementestablishing the IMC states that, when reporting under Article 4 (as we are doinghere), the IMC shall recommend any remedial action considered necessary and mayalso recommend what measures, if any, it considers might appropriately be taken by the Northern Ireland Assembly, such measures being limited to those the Assemblyhas power to take under relevant United Kingdom law. 13. In our first report, published by the two Governments in April 2004, we said that itwas difficult to be precise about the relationship between Sinn Féin and the PIRA orabout the PIRA’s decision-making processes but we summarised what we believedto be the situation in these words:“ – Some members, including some senior members, of Sinn Féin are alsomembers, including, in some cases, senior members of PIRA.– Sinn Féin, particularly through its senior members, is in a position to exerciseconsiderable influence on PIRA’s major policy decisions, even if it is not in aposition actually to determine what policies or operational strategies the PIRA will adopt. We believe that decisions of the republican movement as a whole about these matters lie more with the leadership of PIRA than with Sinn Féin.– Within the PIRA some decisions follow a process of consultation with the membership initiated by the leadership”. We went on to conclude that Sinn Féin had to bear its responsibility for the continuation by PIRA of illegal paramilitary activity and had to recognise theimplications of being in this position 4.14. We draw the same conclusion about the responsibility of Sinn Féin in relation to therecent series of abductions and robberies. In our view Sinn Féin must bear itsshare of responsibility for all the incidents. Some of its senior members, who are also senior members of PIRA, were involved in sanctioning the series of robberies. Sinn Féin cannot be regarded as committed to non-violence andexclusively peaceful and democratic means so long as its links to PIRA remain as they are and PIRA continues to be engaged in violence or other crime. Although we note Sinn Féin has said it is opposed to criminality of any kind itappears at times to have its own definition of what constitutes a crime. We do not believe the party has sufficiently discharged its responsibility to exert allpossible influence to prevent illegal activities on the part of PIRA. 15. Furthermore citizens – even more so public representatives – have a responsibility to prevent crime by reporting an impending incident to government or to otherauthorities or to take other appropriate steps. RECOMMENDATIONS 16.One lesson we draw from recent events is that to enable us in future to make full androunded assessments of paramilitary activity and criminality as a whole and to drawdependable conclusions we need an adequate period of time. The six monthly periodset for us in the International Agreement over which we monitor all the illegalactivities of all paramilitary groups seems to us well suited to this task. 17. We had hoped that as the peace process developed we would be monitoring asituation of declining criminal activity, and as we have indicated in previous reports,in many respects this has been the case. However in some respects, as this series ofrobberies shows, the situation is very disturbing. 18.In our first report we said that, in exercise of our powers to make recommendations under Article 7, had the Assembly been sitting we would have recommended measures to be taken by the Assembly up to and including exclusion from office inrespect of both Sinn Féin and the Progressive Unionist Party, and that anyrecommendations we might make following restoration of the Assembly would beproportionate to the then prevailing circumstances. We went on to suggest that in theabsence of the Assembly the Secretary of State should consider taking action in respect of the salary of Assembly members and/or the funding of Assembly partiesso as to impose an appropriate financial measure on both these parties. The Secretary of State imposed a twelve month financial penalty on both parties. 19. The provisions available to us to make recommendations for measures to be taken by the Northern Ireland Assembly in respect of parties, Members or Ministers aredetermined by the International Agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1998 asamended. It remains the case that we can say only what we would haverecommended had the Assembly been sitting or can again invite the Secretary ofState to consider exercising his powers. This does not however prevent us frommaking our position clear. 20. If the Northern Ireland Assembly was now sitting we would be recommendingthe implementation of the full range of measures listed in paragraph 12,including exclusion from office. We say this recognising that this would haveimplications for the running of the Executive and the Assembly.21.We are very aware that the imposition of financial penalties is bound to seem paltryagainst the background of a robbery of £26.5m. It has also been put to us that iffinancial penalties are imposed Sinn Féin will try to benefit from that by portraying themselves as victims. Be that as it may, in the light of the provisions of thelegislation we have decided to recommend that the Secretary of State should consider exercising the powers he has in the absence of the Assembly toimplement the measures which are presently applicable, namely the financialones. It has also been suggested that Sinn Féin should not continue to receive publicmoney from other sources if they are denied it in the context of the Northern IrelandAssembly. However, this is outside the measures available to us to recommend. 22. The series of robberies culminating in the Northern Bank crime emphasises againthe importance of tracing and seizing the financial proceeds of paramilitary crimecommitted by PIRA and all the other groups. We have been directing our attentionto this issue and how it may be addressed, and hope to make more extensivecomments in a future report. 23. The leadership and rank and file of Sinn Féin need to make the choice between continued association with and support for PIRA criminality and the path of anexclusively democratic political party. The real issue is not the expression ofcondemnation through the imposition of particular penalties. It is that theending of all illegal activity by PIRA and indeed by all paramilitary groups isfully and permanently addressed. Only in that way can trust be restored and theobjective set us in Article 35– which we believe all law abiding people share –thereby advanced. Until this happens it is hard to see how further usefulprogress can be made.105Article 3 of the International Agreement says:“The objective of the Commission is to carry out with a view to promoting the transition to a peaceful society and stable andinclusive devolved government in Northern Ireland”.

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http://www.independentmonitoringcommission.org/publications.cfm?id=24

[Bridget Burke]

10. Why are you annoying us with these boring details?

"Sinn Fein must be discredited" is the whole story. It was announced before any details were known. And it's been repeated over & over.

Why bother with facts?

[struggle4progress]

14. Because if political process can't, won't, or doesn't work -- sigh!

[H2O Man]

51. Good point.

I'd note that the OP was hardly LBN. It was reported in last week's Irish Echo, the largest Irish-American paper in the USA. The fact that it is being repeated over and over is not really "breaking news."

Sinn Fein is doing a good job under difficult circumstances.

[Stella_Artois]

6. One question

How is it an "inside" job when the only person arrested who has anything to do with the finanical world ( but also had links to Sinn Fein) didn't work at that bank ?

[struggle4progress]

12. This seems a reasonable question. But being naturally suspicious ...

... I tend to wonder when I see a bank with a history of bad investments, and a stunning failure to take elementary precautions (such as the purchase of insurance) sold -- and then robbed before it is handed over to its new owners. And curiously, there was great early variation in the loss claims:

16:26 2004-12-21
An estimated 30 million pounds has been stolen from a bank in Northern Ireland, a source has said. If confirmed, the raid would be one of the biggest ever bank robberies in Britain ..
http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2004/12/21/57519.html

December 23, 2004 - 4:07PM
Police have confirmed that more than $55.58m was stolen from the National Australia Bank-owned Northern Bank in Belfast and were investigating the possibility the massive heist was carried out by paramilitaries ...
http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Laundering-55m-wont-be-easy-say-police/2004/12/23/1103391862314.html

This suggests to my small mind (which expects conniving round every bend) the possibility that the bank might have needed to explain some extra losses -- and what could be more convincing than a robbery involving as many pounds as possible?

I have, of course, no real evidence for this, except that my nose is twitching in the breeze ...

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. The difference isn't that much

the first link says estimated 30 million pounds; the second $55.58m, which, at an exchange rate of about $1.9482 to the pound, is £28.5m; the figure by the time of the IMC report is £26.5m. OK, £2m is still a lot - but it's under 10% of the amount finally given. I don't know how easy it is to quickly tally the exact amount after a robbery from a bank.

On edit: the 2nd source, being an Australian source (and pointing out that the Northern bank is Australian owned) may be talking about Australian dollars - in which case the echange rate is more like 2.55 aus dollars to the pound - about £21.8 million. It says "more than $55.58m" - anyone know if Australian papers assume the Australian dollar when talking about international finance, or the American one?

[struggle4progress]

18. Thanks, MV. That was really sloppy of me. Of course ...

... the Aussie papers are probably going to use their dollars.

<edit:> On the other hand, one might expect a well-run bank to know rather exactly what was in the vault, and there is fast currency counting machinery nowadays.

[Stella_Artois]

7. Ahern: Govt 'satisfied' IRA, SF leadership linked

Foreign Affairs Minister Dermot Ahern said today that the Government is absolutely satisfied that the leadership of the IRA and Sinn Féin are linked.

Speaking this afternoon, he said it was inconceivable that the IRA wasn't involved in the Northern Bank raid or in the money-laundering operation currently being investigated by Gardaí.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=134282612&p=y34z833y8

[struggle4progress]

13. Yes. And the President of the USA not so long ago expressed ...

... the view that he was absolutely convinced that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

But inquiring minds will want to know the gritty details. If the political people in Sinn Fein are involved in this heist, then of course they can be convicted by a jury of their peers under old English law; otherwise, perhaps, they should be pressing libel actions.

[Stella_Artois]

8. Sinn Fein are twisting and turning, they don't know what way is up

So far, eight people have been arrested since the Garda probe into "subversive" money laundering activities began.

They include Tom Hanlon, a 37-year-old former Sinn Fein councillor in Cork, who also stood for election to the Dail, in 2002.

Sinn Fein MP, Martin McGuinness denied on Friday knowing or meeting Mr Hanlon, only for RTE news footage to later turn up showing the pair together at the election count, in 2002.

http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=612993

You think Sinn Fein is telling the truth ?

Why did Martin Mcguiness deny ever meeting the arrested (and later released) Sinn Fein member, when he had been filmed with him in 2002 ?

[struggle4progress]

11. As a matter of general principle, I am unsympathetic to advocates ...

of political violence, such as PIRA, though I would consider as a practical political matter it could very be appropriate to work with the political arm of such groups when the political arm negotiates in good faith.

I have no position on whether SF is truthful. And I do not know whether McGuiness was lying or whether, like so many ordinary people, he was simply forgetful when he denied knowing Hanlon. But I'm quite certain that news footage exists showing many people together, who do not know each other. Whatever is true, this story does not yet seem especially nefarious, insofar as your source says clearly: "Mr Hanlon was released without charge."

[CollegeDNC]

16. Sinn Fein and IRA are NOT terrorists, nor are they robbers.

Look this is just another sad, pathetic attempt by the Brits to get back at Sinn Fein and the IRA for having "kicked thier asses" for the past 30 years. As a 24 year old proud former Marine with service in Kosovo and Sierra Leone, I can certainly speak to having seen terrorisim...the IRA are not Terrorist scum like Al Qaida, Hamas or Hexbollah...they are freedom fighters much like the Jewish Irgun, French Resistence, Northern Alliance or the brave American Revolutionaries.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. Of course the IRA are terrorists

They bombed pubs, shops, hotels ... they targetted civilians in Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

[two gun sid]

20. Speaking of bombings....

I assume you also consider the UFF, UDA, UVF, The Orange Order, The Red Hand and other Unionist Paramilitaries terrorist organizations. And as for targeting civilians well, I guess we better throw the RUC and the British Para's in there too.

I still want to see some evidence that Sinn Fein's leadership sanctioned this "robbery". The longer this investigation goes on with no real evidence and arrests that result in charges the less I believe Hugh Orde, PSNI, Bertie Ahern, Fianna Fail and Rev. Paisley that the PIRA are involved.

Too much killing has gone on for too long. The Peace Process needs to be restarted and Republicans deserve as much a voice as Loyalists.

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. Yes, those 'Loyalist' organisations are terrorist too

(and how I hate the term loyalist - the only thing they're loyal to is their own ego). RUC and military involvement with them has been covered up, and there are some who should be in prison for life; and Bloody Sunday was wholy inexcusable, and soldiers should be locked up for that too.

I'd like proof of the involvement, but I do think it highly likely - the involvement of terrorist organisations in racketeering, drugs etc. has been documented for years. However, I think the open accusations are politically motivated - in a normal crime investigation, the police just say "our inquiries are proceeding" and so on, (a) in the hope that the criminals will get careless, (b) so as not to prejudice a future trial.

[DaveinMD]

33. the IRA are freedom fighters

the British Army is a terrorist presence on Irish soil. They have colluded with loyalist death squads who kill innocent Catholics. Thank god for the IRA.

[CONN]

37. good point

living in Newry in the early 70s - at the start of the
troubles - the arrival of the Brits (who some thought would
protect the innocent) brought such fear. They'd raid homes in
the middle of the night -- beating old men and drag off boys.
The IRA materialized and set up barricades to create No-Go
areas - temporary peace.

[two gun sid]

38. Dia duit.

Welcome to DU. Someone like you could give some real insight into NI and The Peace Process. Keep postin'.

[Pert_UK]

73. Yes, thank God for drug-dealing, child-murdering scum.........

Nothing like a few indiscrimate bombings to really drive home the noble majesty of the "freedom fighter", eh?

For the record, I hate the paramilitary organisations on both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland, and I acknowledge the terrible treatment of Catholics and Republicans by the British.

The armed republican movement began with noble ideals of throwing off repression, but in modern years it has descended into organised crime and corruption - it's no longer about the struggle, it's about the money.

How about acknowledging that the IRA have betrayed all their supporters by continuing to commit organised crime when they should have been working towards peace?

You disgust me.

[Maeve]

75. Here we fucking go again

Will you--both sides--listen to yourselves?? You are BOTH keeping the hatred alive. One side wants the other to admit the crimes committed by the other and neither is willing to give up the grievances of their own. There are criminals on ALL sides of this mess and crimes still being committed by ALL sides--republican, loyalist, Catholic, Protestant, Irish, British, civilian and government!!! There are cover-ups and dissembling crap on ALL sides and until ALL are ready to be honest peace brokers the only ones who are winning are the ones who want the status quo--no peace, no civil society, no progress. The extremes are strengthened and the grudges are nursed--it's about money, it's about power and devil take everyone but me and my side! I am coming to the conclusion that the last honest broker in this deal was George Mitchell.

I am not a violent person most of the time, but the bickering and back-stabbing crap this nastiness produces makes me want to grab some ears and knock some heads together, knock some sense into the participants. Not that it would do any good...

[Pert_UK]

76. I disagree....

I freely admit that the paramilitaries on both sides of this and the British government have behaved terribly.

The thing I have a problem with is the portrayal of either side as being noble or blameless or innocent of all charges.

My main anger at the moment is directed at idiots like Paisley who refuse to even sit down with Sinn Fein, and idiots like McGuinness and and Adams who (IMHO) have betrayed the people they claim to represent by continued criminal actions during useful and credible peace talks.

My secondary anger is reserved for people who smugly sit back and claim that the IRA (or any other paramilitary organisation from either side) is somehow not a terrorist organisation.

I freely acknowledge the crap that's going on throughout this situation - I have a great deal of problems with people who fail to see it from their own side.

[Maeve]

77. And my secondary anger is with accusations without proof

If McGuinness and Adams are involved in illegal activities, bring out the proof. It would be totally against their best interests to be involved in this crap--I have trouble believing they are that stupid. I could be wrong--but I want proof or at least evidence, not accusations. Bring charges, have a trial, bring things into the open.

Frankly, I was taught that America got the whole "not guilty until proven" idea from the British, but lately it seems that the idea is more "verdict first, trial later", at least when it comes to this issue.

I would add that (IMHO) the term "terrorist organization" is less than worthless. It has been used to tar all who have been/once were/might be related to someone who is involved as unworthy of participating in moving forward. People who weren't born then are treated as guilty of crimes from the '70's and '80's and those who have had no voice for years are guilty of some idjit crook hiding in the shadows. And that goes for the UDA as well as the IRA.

[CfromNZ]

19. Get over yourself

IRA members costructed explosive devices full of nails, and placed them inside concrete rubbish (trash) bins (cans). Try telling the relatives of the children that died from injuries caused by high-velocity nails and concrete fragments that the IRA are not a terrorist organisation. Gerry Adams can lie on television as much as he wants, he has blood on his hands like everyone else involved with the IRA. Your statement betrays obvious bias. Any terrorist organisation with political aims or motivation is going to be termed 'freedom fighters' by someone that agrees with those aims. US investors have also bankrolled these murderers for years, perhaps helping their little training missions to South America? Or paying for the nails in those bombs? Heard of a padre pio shooting?

[two gun sid]

21. Ever heard of the UDA?

They like to do a few punishment shootings too.

We could trade atrocities all day but, what's important is for the Peace Process to get back on track. The day of the gunman is over. It is time for a real political solution to "The Troubles".

[CfromNZ]

22. Can't argue with the sentiment

It is very true that violence should belong to a previous epoch of Anglo/Irish relations, but how can the Unionists and British Govt. reasonably sit down at table with Sinn Fein when they now know that those same people were involved in or totally aware of criminal activity on a massive scale, while sitting around that same table at an earlier stage. The robbery is a blatant slap in the face of the British govt. It's naive to think that Sinn Fein isn't aware of what the IRA is doing or what its intentions are, to not know would make the job as the IRA's political arm very difficult. I doubt the US would tolerate a massive criminal organisation like the IRA committing bank robberies and shootings , all while trying to negotiate

[struggle4progress]

23. The argument you make may really deserve some discussion ...

... if the assertions made about Sinn Fein involvement in or knowledge of the robbery are true.

But it looks to me right now that we're hearing great shrieks and many screams of "IRA behind it! IRA! IRA!" from a big giant noise machine screaming --without much in the way of supporting evidence.

[CfromNZ]

25. you're right

I should back off a little bit on the definites....nothing has been proven yet. I think it does smell more than bit off though, but we should be careful, as this may play into the hands of those want to paint loyalists all as criminals in an effort to wreck the peace process. I don't think it hurts to discuss the possible repercussions of the allegations are true, however. But do you honestly think that a paramilitary group's political wing wouldn't be aware of a robbery like that? That is almost unbelievable. I would be happy to be proven wrong in this case though, thats for sure.

[struggle4progress]

29. Of course, it is idiotic to judge others as if they were ourselves but ...

... (speaking purely hypothetically) if I were interested in representing such a group politically, with the hopes that a genuine political resolution of the troubles were possible, I'd recognize that politics is hard work and I'd count on the work taking at least 60 hours weekly or more. Since I would need a clear head and plenty of energy for the political work, I'd be completely uninterested in spending my time worrying about how to avoid prosecution and incarceration for misprison of felony. And I think I'd want to avoid the remotest possibility that my opponents could credibly screech that I was nothing more than a kidnapper and a hoodlum, as this would likely harm my political efforts.

In short (and speaking as my real self again), I think the rational political operative in such a context would in fact insulate himself/herself as much as possible from any direct knowledge of any crime. Moreover, I can't imagine anyone taking on such work, without believing that the political effort was likely ultimately to succeed. So I should expect the rational political operative to spend a certain amount of time trying to calm down the armed hotheads, in part because the very demonstration that the armed hotheads can be quieted itself provides some potential credibility.

While there are no ideally rational humans, many politicians (despite taking great pains not to appear too bright) are really not stupid. So in answer to your query, "Do you honestly think that a paramilitary group's political wing wouldn't be aware of a robbery like that?" I'd have to say simply that I do think that such a disconnect between the political and paramilitary sides of such an organization is not only possible but actually seems likely to me.

Of course, an argument like this does nothing to establish the facts in a particular case ...

[Bridget Burke]

48. Who's trying to wreck the peace process....

--by painting loyalists all as criminals?

It's quite evident that the peace process is being subverted by those eager to discredit Sinn Fein because they might have a connection to a robbery still being investigated. And there's a connection with the IRA--or is it the splinter group, the Real IRA? Nothing has been proven, yet.

There's no excuse for past terrorism, but the whole point of the peace process is to proceed into the future. If you want to bring up the past history of the IRA--there's plenty of history on the other side.

[two gun sid]

24. Well, Whitehall was negotiating with the Provos secretly...

throughout The Troubles. Sinn Fein no longer advocates the "Armalite and the Ballot Box". They believe in a constitutional resolution. I truly believe that.

Let me just quote the words of Gusty Spence, the man who revived the UVF.

"...Let us firmly resolve to respect our differing views of freedom, culture and aspirations and never again permit our political circumstances to degenerate into bloody warfare.
We are on the threshold of a new and exciting beginning with our battles in future being political battles, fought on the side of honesty, decency and democracy against the negativity of mistrust, misunderstanding and malevolence so that together we can bring forth a wholesome society in which our children and their children will know the meaning of true peace."

If Gusty Spence can reject the gun then Whitehall, Belfast and Dublin can get past old grievances and get a settlement. With real peace and justice all problems with the PIRA and the Unionist paramilitaries go away. Maybe people our age will never forget all the wrong that was done but, future generations will not carry the baggage we do.

[CfromNZ]

26. Our age?

I'm only a youngin' at 23, but I just have some things etched in my mind. Explosion goes off--British people killed--Gerry Adams on TV again. It's hard to get that out of your mind when seeing Adams on TV now, but yes, some people will never get over it, ask Norman Tebbit!

[two gun sid]

27. I can't pass the Cricket Test.

So, I won't ask Norman anything. Like I said we could trade atrocities all night. Sorry for mistaking you for a old geezer in their 40's like me. Welcome to DU.

On Yer Bike!

[CfromNZ]

28. We could trade atrocities all night

good point. and thank you for the welcome, I just spent a week on Freerepublic before I found this site, I think I deserve a medal!! Such a relief to find discussion minus the name-calling.......I saw Norman Tebbit on BBC HardTalk commenting on the Brighton bombing a few weeks back and he was still very bitter, has no intention of forgiveness. Can't blame him, but we're lucky that old guard is long gone.

[DaveinMD]

35. Read some books about the Troubles

the conflict re-emerged when Catholics in the North tried to emulate the peaceful Civil Rights movement. They marched for things like one person, one vote, equal housing and non-discrimination in employment. The response of the Northern Statelet was police sponsored violence against Catholic communities. The RUC took part in this violence and encourage protestent mobs to do the same. When the British military landed in NI, they did the same. The IRA re-emerged to defend Catholics from these pogroms. And that is what they were pogroms. The British military colluded with Loyalist death squads. Barristers were murdered. Non combatants were murdered and forced from their homes only because of their religion. These are the facts. Learn some history and your opinion will change unless it is ideologically entrenched.

[DaveinMD]

34. the British have not honored one commitment in the GFA

yet the Republicans and Nationalists still sit down with them. The IRA will go away when the british end their illegal occupation of Ireland. The IRA are freedom fighters. They came into being in the north to defend nationalist communities from attacks by the RUC, the British Army and Loyalist death squads. Try learning some history about the troubles.

[Stella_Artois]

32. Of course they are

If they had limited their attacks to military / political targets they could sit on the moral high ground and claim to be "freedom fighters"

Nailbombing civilian targets is a terrorist action.

What possible military value did a street outside Harrods have ? Or a shopping center in Warrington ? Or a pub in Birmingham ?

Frankly, you do the memory of the American Revolutionaries an injustice.

Having terrorists on the other side does not give you a free hand to do whatever you like and not be judged by the same standards.

[rayofreason]

36. Well said

[DaveinMD]

39. Was the US Army terrorists during WWII

they killed civilians?

The IRA made errors. But they have existed to defend catholics from loyalist death squads. The British military has colluded with these death squads to kill innocent Catholics. The british occupation of Ireland is the main problem.

[Stella_Artois]

40. Find out about Tokyo

The firebombing of. You decide.

As for the loyalist death squads they were defending from, none of them shopped in Manchester or drank in Guilford.

Britain is not in Ireland btw, it is in Northern Ireland. Ireland is Irish.

[DaveinMD]

43. Let's learn some history

Britain is most definitely in Ireland. Northern Ireland was partitioned from the rest of the country as a political play by the British. Ulster is one of the four provinces of Ireland.

Its called Northern Ireland for a reason. Its Ireland. The bombings in Britain were mistakes no doubt. But the bulk of activity took place in Northern Ireland. And the IRA has always given warnings before bombings so civilians could escape. They aimed to hurt the British economy. Not civilians.

[Nihil]

45. Suggest you do too

> And the IRA has always given warnings before bombings so civilians
> could escape. They aimed to hurt the British economy. Not civilians.

That is pure unmitigated bullshit.

The warnings on many (if not most) of the mainland bombings were sent
and phrased for maximum confusion, often with the deliberate intent
of "evacuating" innocent civilians INTO TO PATH OF A BOMB.

I know there have been legitimate grievances against the British Army
(and certainly against the "Loyalist" terrorists) but that is material
for a different thread. My only comment on this specific thread is
that there is no way on this planet that you can claim that the IRA did
not aim to hurt civilians. They were (and are) terrorists, cowards and
murderers and some of the current leadership of Sinn Fein have been on
the army council leading them.

Personally, I think McGuinness & Adams have a "get out" clause in the
current media flurry in as much as I doubt that they are *still* on
the council - I'd guess they are too busy these days (not to mention
too visible to be closely involved with an illegal organisation).

[DaveinMD]

46. nope

the IRA re-emerged to defend the Catholic community against Pogroms and that is a fact. Were mistakes made along the way. Sure. But the IRA has come nowhere near killing as many people as the loyalist death squads. And they exist to free people from an illegal foreign occupyer. That is a fact. The partition of a nation cannot stand and it was an act of war in itself.

[Nihil]

72. You could always try reading the note you replied to ...?

That way you don't need to restate your (unrelated) bit of Northern
Irish history (IRA emerged in response to attacks on Catholics - not
disputed).

If you bothered reading, you would realise that I am not defending any
"loyalist" death squads (who are cowardly murdering criminals just like
the IRA). If you bothered reading, you would realise that I am not
even defending the British presence in Northern Ireland.

If you bothered reading, you would have seen that I was calling BS on
your claim that the IRA were not targeting civilians and tried to reduce
the murdering/maiming of innocents.

That claim was and still is complete bullshit.
That is the note that you should have replied to with a few facts
instead of the third or fourth hand Noraid rhetoric that you prefer
to regurgitate.

[DaveinMD]

78. my "rhetoric" in not third or fourth hand

My comments on the conflict are based on years of reading about the history of the conflict. And everything I said is valid. You would be wise to stop accepting everything that the BBC puts out on the conflict.

[Nihil]

85. Really?

> My comments on the conflict are based on years of reading about the
> history of the conflict.

The comments that you have made so far would only suggest years of
reading about the conflict in Noraid pamphlets or tales of the
"heroes" of the struggle. If you have read any more balanced
references then you would not be presenting the views displayed
so far.

> And everything I said is valid.

That statement is simply wrong but in the interest of peaceful debate
I will not wait for you to back down. It would be nice, however, to
have you address the points from my replies rather than just stir it
with tired rhetoric (even if it is only second hand).

> You would be wise to stop accepting everything that the BBC puts out
> on the conflict.

You would be wise to stop making assumptions about the sources of my
knowledge. You would be wiser still to acknowledge that the IRA have
just as many cowardly murdering criminals as the UDA (& co), that they
have repeatedly targetted civilians (as have the UDA, etc.,), and that
their primary purpose *these days* (i.e., not half a century ago) is
crime - murder, drugs, armed robbery and extortion.

The IRA started with good purposes, performing a genuine service for
the parts of the community that were being terrorised by a disgraceful
mixture of British Army and Unionist thugs. I do not deny this.
I do however deny that they are any more than cowardly thugs themselves
these days. I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary.

[Southern Dem 2005]

58. While I'm of Irish ancestry

there is no disputing that the IRA are terrorists. Ask the families of the 28 people killed in the 1998 Omagh bombing if the IRA are "freedom fighters."


"In Omagh, grief-stricken relatives of the dead were still deep in shock. At least seven of the dead and many of the seriously injured were children and young people.

One family lost three generations in the bombing: a 65-year-old grandmother, her 30-year-old daughter pregnant with twins and the woman's 18-month-old baby.

Two Spanish aircraft flew to Northern Ireland Monday to pick up the bodies of two Spaniards killed in the blast. Four others remain hospitalized in critical condition."

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9808/17/n.ireland.arrests.02/

This bombing is no different than those taking place in the Middle East. Only cowards bomb civilian targets.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IronLionZion]

30. and Irish Catholics in Boston support the IRA too

oooohhhh big newsflash :eyes:

Everybody knows Sinn Fein is the political wing of the IRA. yeah there's "deep, deep dishonesty" on the conservative side too. whatever

[Larkspur]

41. As a descendent of Irish immigrants, I say Great Britain is the main

terrorist state. Britain illegally invaded Ireland in the 12th century, and when it looked inevitable that the Irish won independence in the 20th, Britain split the island to keep a Protestant colony, which was at the time a major industrial center.

Britain has no business being on Irish soil. Re-unite Ireland!! Britain get out and take your Prostetant colonists with you.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. Are you a Native American?

Should all the colonists in the illegal state of the United States of America withdraw to their ancestor's lands, so that the earlier inhabitants of North America get back their soil?

[struggle4progress]

44. There was a nice button "US out of North America" some years back.

But I don't think it spawned a mass movement ...

[Larkspur]

47. You're evading the topic

The plantation of Ulster was intentionally planned to create a loyal colony in Ireland. In fact Ulster was the only one of 4 main plantations that succeed in its intent for the British. The other 3 ended in failure because the transplanted English absorbed the local customs and became "more Irish than the Irish themselves."

The main reason the Ulster plantation succeeded for the Brits was because they convinced lowland Scots to migrate to Ulster. These Scots were militant Protestants and militant anti-Papists and had long forgotten their Gaelic links with the Irish natives. The Highland Scots were closer in native tongue and customs to the native Irish. The descendents of these lowland Scot colonists today form the Orange Order, which militantly insists that they have the right to march through Catholic neighborhoods and spew their hatred of Catholics right at Catholic faces.

Contrary to what some people think, the British, unlike the Americans, did not want to exterminate the native Irish. The native Irish were to be serfs and cheap labor for the imperial colonists.

[muriel_volestrangler]

49. My point is that it is no more realistic to demand that

"Protestant colonists" go back to Britain from Ireland than to demand that the non-native American inhabitants of the USA go back to whichever country is the majority source of their ancestors. Their ancestors have been there for 400 years - there's no 'back' for them to go to. They won't be able to trace their families to where they came from in Scotland or England. Your point about some absorbing local customs backs this up - why wouldn't you send them back too? Are you actually calling for a religion test - since you refered to the Protestant colonists?

[H2O Man]

52. Your analogy is weak.

Respectfully, because I usually agree with your posts, I would like you to consider a few things: {1} Native Americans can and do have recourse through "land claims" suits that, while certainly not perfect, are a legal and civil means to address these issues; {2} It would be more accurate to compare the Irish situation to the USA if we considered what our reaction would be if England decided to occupy their old "13 Colonies" in the northeast. They have every bit as much legal and moral authority to occupy and rule 13 states here as what they call "Northern Ireland": and {3} When the Irish have attempted to use peaceful means to achieve social justice in Northern Ireland, they have been met with extremely violent opposition.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. I'll expand on my analogy

English and Scottish families went to Ireland in the 17th century, got land (typically by the British crown confiscating it off any Irish landowner that opposed them), and settled there, enjoying legal privileges over those whose families had lived there for over thousands of years.

The 'original' Irish now have full civil rights. There are mechanisms for addressing discrimination against them, if it occurs. Many were unjustly killed, by colonists' descendants and the British army, to achieve this.

English and Scottish families went to North America in the 17th century, got land (typically by expelling the native people at gunpoint) and settled there, enjoying legal privileges over those whose families had lived there for over thousands of years. Other Europeans joined them later, continuing to obtain land by force.

Native Americans now have civil means to protect their rights to areas of the country that are agreed to belong solely to them. They are regarded as full American citizens. Many were unjustly killed, by colonists' descendants and the US army, to achieve this.

Calling for the reunification of Ireland is a valid point of view - you may argue that the will of the whole island is what counts, not just an arbitrary part of it. However, it can also be argued that an area which had felt itself to be distinct for some time, and which had religious differences, did have the right to have its wishes considered at the time of the formation of the Irish Free State. It's a debatable point. Northern Ireland remains a part of the United Kingdom because of its inhabitants' wishes, not the desire of the British government, or the British people.

But calling for the Protestant colonists to go back to Britain is a very good analogy to calling for all Europeans that went to America to go back. Both groups started settling at about the same time, took their land by what we'd now regard as illegal means, and for a long time had preferential treatment. The fact that the American colonists are now independent of any European country doesn't give them a greater right to retain their land.

[Larkspur]

60. The will of the People of Northern Ireland was rigged by the Brits

and Unioinists by truncating off some of the counties of the original province of Ulster. These counties were heavily Catholic and if the whole of Ulster was asked, the majority would have sided with Ireland.

Britain, again, is the guilty party in this case.

Ireland was a united island before the Brits came, and it should be reunited again and the troublemakers, the Unionists bigots, should be removed at Britain's expense, if they don't want to mingle with the natives.

[H2O Man]

61. "They are regarded as full American citizens."

With that sentence, it becomes evident that you are not well versed in Native American issues from a Native American point of view. I think that you also do not understand Irish issues from an Irish point of view. This, of course, does not change that you are an intelligent and thoughtful person .... it simply shows that there are things that even smart, thoughtful people do not understand about other cultures and other human beings.

That said, it is still possible -- in fact, necessary -- that people with very real differences in experience and opinion show respect for one another. It is an unfortunate truth that neither Native Americans in the USA, or Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland, are accorded that respect.

[CONN]

65. ...now have full civil rights???

We're still fighting to get the MacBride Principles passed in
many states to stop state pensions from investing in  publicly
traded United States Companies that have operations in
Northern Ireland that continue the systematic practice and
endemic practice of anti-Catholic discrimination.

[muriel_volestrangler]

66. Then rather than trying to do things in the USA

I suggest you report the people guilty of the discrimination to the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, because they'd be breaking the Fair Employment and Treatment (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 (which expanded the earlier employment legislation)..

[CONN]

67. Are you telling me to go back to Ireland??

The NI government is guilty of collusion with paramilitaries in the murder of many of the citizens of NI. Example, Rosemary Nelson and Pat Finucane.

This must be fought here and everywhere!

One recent success in the fight is with Marriott International where the shareholders voted in 2004 to request the Board of Directors to “make all possible lawful efforts to implement and/or increase activity on each of the nine MacBride Principles”

http://www.iccr.org/shareholder/proxy_book04/MEMBER%20ISSUES/MACBRIDE_EXXON_Marr_3740.HTM

[muriel_volestrangler]

69. No, I'm seriously saying that if you know of discrimination

you should report it to the Equality Commission. That's what they're there for. That's what the Good Friday Agreement was for.

[CONN]

71. Good Friday Agreement Not Implemented

The Good Friday Agreement is the proverbial carrot on a string
in front of Sinn Fein and others. USA is where the money is
and therefore the an effective place to lobby for the rights
of people anywhere (including NI).

[Bridget Burke]

53. The problem is the few die-hard Loyalists....

Who won't abandon their role of keeping the Paddies down. Old England doesn't really require that any more & they don't know what to do with themselves.

[Larkspur]

59. The Protestants in Ulster did not absorb the local Irish culture

It was the English settlers in the other 3 Irish provinces that did. The Protestant Scots were intentionally planted by England in Ireland for the express purposes of creating an English colony. There is historical evidence of this. The Brits should bear the expense of uprooting them and transplanting them on English soil It was Britain that did it and Britain that should remedy the situation at their expense. The Irish natives did not invite the British to invade them nor the Protestant Scots to transplant them.

In regards to the North American Indigenous inhabitants and European settlers, the indigenous North Americans didn't originally oppose European settlers. Most of them would have willingly lived alongside European colonists, but like the Protestant Scots of Ireland, many of these European settlers didn't want to mingle with the "savages."

Those of us who are descendents of European settlers, whether our ancestors killed North American Indigenous inhabitants or not (mine had no direct contact with Indians), have paid reparations to many of the tribes that the US Government had treaties with, so in a sense, many of the Indians here finally got some justice, whereas, the native Irish of Northern Ireland are still waiting for it to come.

In Central and South America, the Spainsh either slaughtered the native populations to extinction or have mingled with the native population and formed a new race of mix bloods. There are pure bloods on both sides, but depending on which country, the mix race is larger that the pure bloods.

I don't have a problem with the descendents of colonists staying in the former colony, but the colonists need to be willing to work and share power with the descendents of natives. In South Africa, another former British colony, the colonists tried brutal apartheid but due to strong resistance from the native population and global boycott, the colonists gave into sharing power with the natives. If the Protestant Scots don't want to share power with the Catholics and remain obstructionist towards social justice for Catholics, then they should be removed. They are the alien culture, not the natives.

[Stella_Artois]

62. Scots placed to create an English colony ?

You sure you know as much as you think you know ?

It was done by a Scottish king IIRC, James I.

[Larkspur]

63. And James I became King of England after Queen Elizabeth I's death

James ruled both Scotland and England.

[Stella_Artois]

64. He WAS Scottish though

He was James VI of Scotland before he was James I of England.

[Larkspur]

83. Yeah, and as King of England, he got the lowland Scots to migrate

to Ulster to create a colony loyal to England.

[Teaser]

50. IF the native Americans want to fight for that, cool

I don't see many native American's trying to get us whities to leave. But if they did...more power to'em.

[Pert_UK]

74. Yes....and killing innocent men, women and children is the way to do it.

Let's overlook the fact that Sinn Fein / IRA have continued to involve themselves in criminal and terrorist acts whilst being involved in the diplomatic peace process.

The mistakes of the past cannot justify the sickening behaviour and cynical deceptions of the present.

[jmcgowanjm]

79. Blair commands Stakeknife/MI5

Lawrence Fishburn, in a movie, The Cotton Club.
"You've got to learn, " the line went, "that when you push
people around, some people push
back."
As they should.
As they must.
And as they undoubtedly will.
There is justice in such symmetry.

I've got a theory-England is just about the
only country that hasn't been invaded in the world.
I really can't think of another.

[Pert_UK]

80. England has been invaded several times....

including by the Romans and by the Normans, rather famously, in 1066.

OK, not recently, but we have got a German royal family.

[jmcgowanjm]

82. Yes, I should've remembered Hadrian's Wall

All the contemporary rhetoric portraying the coup as a
'Glorious Revolution' cannot disguise the fact that England
had been invaded by a rival nation - a fact underlined by one
of William's first moves as king, when he persuaded
Parliament to pay the Dutch for the expenses incurred in
the expedition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/invasion_threat_06.shtml

I should've known this. Thank you Pert_UK
for extending my education.

[jmcgowanjm]

54. Trimble/ Paisley/Blair now here's a triad that knows dishonesty

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1259986#

[Vladimir]

56. Aye, if its between trusting Adams or Blair...

I trust the IRA any day of the week.

[Emboldened Chimp]

57. This is news?

Hasn't Sinn Fein always been the political arm of the IRA?

[struggle4progress]

68. The claim, for which no evidence was provided, is that Sinn Fein ...

... leaders such as Adams have actually been closely involved in planning IRA military operations. If this is true, of course, the authorities could arrest and prosecute; but the authorities appear to have decided that there is no point going to all that trouble, when they can obtain the same political effect simply by making the accusation loudly and repeatedly.

I think it no coincidence that this occurs while Clarke is pushing his "give up your rights" terrorism law.

[Bridget Burke]

84. Yes, if they're terrorists, they could be locked up without a trial!

That is, if Clarke can get his way.

Bill Clinton was highly instrumental in setting up the Peace Process. I wonder whether Bush is encouraging his buddy Blair to keep up the good work?

[Tripmann]

81. The fact that...

...Adams and Mc Guinness are still walking around instead of being arrested for membership of an illegal organisation proves that there is no real evidence against them. If it was Sinn fein accusing Fianna fail of criminal wrongdoings there would be defamation lawsuits flying all over the place.

Double standards, they (as all people do) have the right to be presumed innocent until proven otherwise.

Tripmann