Pope Calls Gay Marriage Part of 'Ideology of Evil'

[truthpusher]

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050222/2005-02-22T201215Z_01_L22608092_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-POPE-BOOK-DC.html

Pope Calls Gay Marriage Part of 'Ideology of Evil'

Feb 22, 3:12 PM (ET)

By Philip Pullella

ROME (Reuters) - Homosexual marriages are part of "a new ideology of evil" that is insidiously threatening society, Pope John Paul says in a new book published Tuesday.

In "Memory and Identity," the Pope also calls abortion a "legal extermination" comparable to attempts to wipe out Jews and other groups in the 20th century.

(snip)

In one section about the role of lawmakers, the Pope takes another swipe at gay marriages when he refers to "pressures" on the European Parliament to allow them.

"It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man," he writes.

complete story:
http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050222/2005-02-22T201215Z_01_L22608092_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-POPE-BOOK-DC.html

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hobarticus]

2. Pope comes off the DL, swings for the fences...

No grey with this guy at all, is there? Only black-and-white.

[darkism]

3. That's the last straw.

Piss off, Your Holiness.

~edited for volatility~

[gWbush is Mabus]

4. it would be kind of ironic if the pope wound up in hell

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. The Catholic church has perpetrated a lot more evil than I have

Time to call the man what he is...a hateful bastard doing it under the guise of religion while he counts all the money.

Frankly I think making people bring up repressed memories of being molested since the church refused to settle out of court with so many is part of the ideology of evil as is transferring child abusers to other nations so that they may escape justice in the US.

[TheDebbieDee]

35. I gotta agree...........

There aren't many things more evil than the decades old practice of covering-up for and protection of child-molesting Priests.

[Blue_Tires]

6. oh dear

this thread will be pinned here for a week...lol

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

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[foreigncorrespondent]

39. I suggest you do some research...

...before you try and link homosexuality with pedophilia. The majority of pedophiles who bugger with little boys happen to be straight and have families of their own. Just because they happen to be Catholic priests, well honey, that doesn't make them gay either.

I am really quite offended by your post.

[NYC Liberal]

8. This, from an older, single man wearing a cape.

</shamelessly pulled from SNL>

Anyway, it won't be long now...

[smirkymonkey]

46. Ha, ha, ha, ha....

Very funny.

I won't say what I think about the pope, however. Haven't had a post deleted in ages and don't want to break my streak.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

9. The Ideology of Idiocy runs rampant

What can you expect of a religion that waited until the 1970s to admit they were wrong about Galileo?

I'd wish that he'd retire, but his replacement will probably be worse.

[Placebo]

EEP.

You can smell the impending flamewar a mile away.

[ElectroPrincess]

40. You got that right .... Whoosh! That's why I treasure separation of

Church and State. We need that more than ever.

[dbt]

10. Fuck the Pope, too, then.

[ElectroPrincess]

41. I'm a practicing Liberal Catholic ... why don't we INSTEAD band together

on what we agree with - The separation of Church and State? That way The Holy Father is only (and literally) preaching to the choir.

[readmoreoften]

77. How would a liberal Catholic fight this?

In your religion, isn't the Pope the direct voice of God in the world? Would you be excommunicated?

[LiberalFighter]

82. That is why the Vatican should not be considered a state

A state that is recognized by other countries with ambassadors.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[burrowowl]

132. Liberal Catholic but 'lapsed'

What are the chances for a John XXIII when JPII croacks? Close to nil, unless the Holy Ghost (oops Spirit) really exists.

[readmoreoften]

133. Is John XXIII a better man? n/t

[burrowowl]

135. Yes

liberation theology .... wary and against Opus Dei, etc.
OH YES!

[Rush1184]

11. And I call Christianity the Ideology of evil...

Throughout history, religon has caused more problems than peoples sexuality...

[Moderator]

12. DUers, please post responses carefully

To keep this thread up in LBN and your post from being removed, please follow the posting guidelines carefully.

Thank you!

LBN Moderator

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. Dear moderator. When considering removing posts please take into account

that if the source of the statement were the KKK and not the pope, nobody would be hitting the alert.

Beyond the source of the statement differing, there's no difference in the hatred of the message from the Pope..except the hoods and cloths differ in color.

[arcane1]

34. VERY well-said

[keopeli]

57. We do our best to be equal and fair to all at DU

We would not treat a KKK thread any differently in looking for posts that go outside the Forum Rules.

We are only human, but we do our best in moderating the site.

Thanks for your input, and happy posting!

Keo

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. Wasn't a knock...

I appreciate your work, just a comparison that I felt to be relevant to the subject nature.

peace

[NervousRex]

64. Brilliant!

:thumbsup:

[Zenlitened]

71. Right on the money.

The way seemingly progressive people fall all over themselves to serve as apologists for this hatefal man... it's very disappointing, to say the least.

[arwalden]

95. I Tip My Hat To You, Teena!

[Duncan Grant]

116. As a gay mod, I just wanted to thank you for that. n/t

[RapidCreek]

142. Amen to that!

I've given up posting in "Catholic" threads, most of the time...but the Moderators post has inspired me to break with that rule....Quite a few Catholics here on DU seem to feel the hateful screed emanating from the head of the theocratic organization they belong to, is owed some sort of deferance.....and that they as sponsors of this screed are owed the same.

These people, in their face saving adamance to erase rightfully angry responses to the hateful rhetoric and hypocritical actions they sponsor, lack the balls the man they claim to worship demonstrated when addressing the same sort of evil which emanated from the hierarchy of the historically relative, ersatz faith he was born into. He didn't attempt to hide the evilness of that proclaimed faiths hierarchy by editing responses to it, he quite ferociously decried it for what it was and stepped away, to practice a personal faith absent the trappings of idolatry, pejorative intolerance and hypocrisy.

This sort of adamance is demonstrably un-Christlike. I'm fairly certain the spirit of Christ is not amused by those who finance child rape, its cover-up and proclamations of hate and intolerance, while simultaneously asserting Divine provenance. Talk about using the Lords name for your own vanity....I can't think of a better example.

How ironic it is, that the product of Christs fortitude has devolved into the very thing which inspired that fortitude, a fortitude born of spirit so strong he sacrificed his life as testament to it's inspiration. How sad it is that anyone would become indignant when it's pointed out or invoke tradition as a defense for their own weakness and complicity.

Don't forget to hit the "Alert" key now, my indignant friends!

Peace and Inner Harmony,

Rapid Creek


P.S. NSMA....you are one cool lady....I'd really like to meet you one day. I just love reading your posts. They are insightful and thought provoking...quick, concise and to the point. You, unlike many of us here on DU, are something more than an armchair warrior. You talk the talk and you walk the walk. Are you by any chance an attorney? The other day you mentioned doing Advocacy work in a particular arena which presented some rather frustrating realities (Poor, White and Pissed). I could feel your pain. I've been faced with the same situation myself but in different circumstances. I've sparred with you on one or two occasions in a rather heated fashion....I have to say, in spite of our disagreements from time to time, you have my respect.

Kudos.

[KurtNYC]

13. Got to see shades of grey in this world

Society has an interest in recognizing monogamous unions. The world is not black and white and attempts to deal with it as such can only fail.

Gay marriage is not the alternative to straight marriage. It is the alternative to unrecognized unions which will continue to form regardless of anyone's dogma.

[Salviati]

14. Funny...

I don't seem to remember a commandment "Thou shalt not marry a dude to another dude". I DO recall there being a couple prohibiting the bearing of false witness and killing... who is it that's promoting an ideology of evil again?

[saltpoint]

15. If someone -- it could be the Pope or anybody else --

-- could give us a specific damage incurred by the existence of same-sex marriage...if we could be shown the specific way in which heterosexual unions are "insidiously" undermined, I would be willing to reconsider my position in light of said damage.

If no specific examples are offered -- by the right-wing Catholics as opposed to open-minded Catholics, or by right-wing Protestants, as opposed to open-minded Protestants -- I'm left to conclude that anti-same-sex marriage pronouncements and initiatives are nothing more than unmitigated hatred and bigotry.

-----
Edit: spelling. I can't spell worth a damn and I'm willing to admit it.

[Fenris]

21. Butt sex is icky!

And it tempts clergy men!

If homosexuals are allowed to marry, then we'll have to tell our children that some people like members of the same sex, rather than have them begender confused and end up trapped in a marriage with a member of the opposite sex with three kids and forced to rely on secret same-sex affairs - the way God intended!

[atreides1]

16. Gay Marriage is evil

But the Holocaust was okay, molesting children was okay, torturing "heretics" was okay, starting religious wars was okay,
but gay marriage is evil. When I say these things were okay, what I'm saying is that the church officially looked the other way, tried to coverup, or just plain didn't give a damn.

Then I can say that the Pope is part of an "old ideology of evil", based on a perverted view of the Bible and the words of Christ.

Not all Catholics are bad, they like the rest of us have "leaders" who are afraid, who are cowards, leaders who are terrified of losing what little power they have. Luckily courage can be found in the church, you just have to know what it looks like.

[rukkyg]

17. Gay Marraige

is part of an ideology that shares with peace and understanding..... things that apparently are evil now in certain buildings in europe.

[McKenzie]

18. ask him about Lucrezia Borgia

a fine example of the unholy (sic) alliance of power and religion.

She was the daughter of Cardinal Rodrigo Borgia and his mistress, Vannozza de Cattanei.

[Democrats_win]

24. Popes had mistresses too.

[TexasLawyer]

43. and they had special Papal bed warmers--

teenage boys who would get in the Pope's bed and warm it up for them. (this was way back when the Roman church was moved temporarily to Avignon, France). For real.

I'm not sure if the lads kept the bed warm through the night. Might have been perfectly innocent, BUT... Michael Jackson could probably get convicted for less.

[Democrats_win]

47. Then there's the choir boys--a crime that has a name better left unsaid.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[applegrove]

20. Yup - and saying folk cannot use condoms in AIDS ravaged countries is

apparently saintly.

[booksenkatz]

22. I'm going to encode my response so I don't get into trouble here

Ah, yes, Mr. Wojtyla, you are right. Love and commitment are just so fucking evil, aren't they?!?!?! Damn those evil people who spread genuine love and caring and compassion and commitment in this world, as opposed to those non-evil people like $*!*@$@ who spread p#*@*&%*$@ and who go around $*#@*I c#!%&$@#, right? Am I right, Karol?

[Democrats_win]

23. Spanish Inquisition ring a bell? Millions dead in Church's wars.

Galileo facing torture and execution for his ideas. Catholic church persecuting Greek Orthodox Christians. Catholic church's selling indulgences which was the greatest financial fraud in history--worse than another Catholic scandal: BCCI.

How about the Catholic Church trying to keep people from even reading the Bible.

Oh, then there's the crusades. The Spanish Armada. Killing Native Americans in order to save them.

What about denying priests the right to have sex. He may wish to believe that homosexuality caused his pedophile scandal, but the fact is priest celibacy is to blame and this is not a Biblical requirement. How pathetic is it for him not to take responsibility for his scandal.

Looks to me that evil begins with the Pope.

[RelativelyJones]

26. Of all the true evils in the world

Speaking as a Polish Catholic-school educated, former alter boy, married father of two, I just can't understand why the Church hierarchy has chosen the civil acceptance of gay relationships as the place to draw battle lines. It would be very difficult to make their raw bigotry more apparent. When an institution says so little about illegal war but gets so exorcised about this, they make themselve very, very small. Sadly, this pope has ensured that no younger progressives in the church (and there are many) will be in a position to counter any of this nonsense in the future.

[TheFarseer]

27. it's his job to recite the ideology of the church

I'm Catholic and I will not smear the pope but I wish he would not call homosexuality evil. Calling that evil detracts from things that really are evil.

[readmoreoften]

112. But I was just doing my job

when I called the Jews 'evil'.

And I was JDMJ when I stopped the African American children from drinking at the fountain.

JDMJ when I wouldn't let that interracial couple marry.

Wasn't Pontias Pilate just doing his job?

He's the fucking Pope. Couldn't he say "you know what, God spoke to me directly and said that homosexuals deserve the right to love and physical safety"?

I thought THAT was the Pope's job.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

29. Who's worse, the Pope or Fred Phelps?

I'll go with the Pope.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. At least one is honest about his hatred

never thought I'd have anything positive to say about Phelps.

[Democrats_win]

49. Tough call, Pope has a lineage of hatred and evil to follow.

Phelps is his own "man."

[DrWeird]

51. The Pope's got a lot more followers.

nt

[readmoreoften]

75. The pope is worse

at least Phelps has a little charm with those sweat bands on his elbows (hiding track marks?) and those michael jackson parachute member's only jacket.

the difference between a virus and a noisome little troll.

[arwalden]

97. THE POPE HATES FAGS!!

THE POPE
HATES EVIL FAGS!!!

[inslee08]

115. At least he's consistent

He's against (what He views as) death in all forms, including war and abortion and the death penalty (IIRC). 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

[readmoreoften]

120. does hating GLBT people fall into that?

So what is that 2 out of 4?

[SomewhereOutThere424]

81. I don't know, but...

I happen to live a town away from plattsburgh NY, where fred feltch wants to visit next summer -.-

I don't know who's worse, one has a more heard voice but is far away. One has a less heard voice but is in our backyard. I say...I hope their god smites both for their lying tongues.

[Rockholm]

93. Both religious zealots. Fear keeps the sheeple in line..

[arwalden]

94. One Hates You To Your Face... The Other Hates You To Your Face...

HEY... they're both the SAME!

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Misunderestimator]

160. Arghhh... I HATE the way you put that...

It is not "Homosexual encounters with minors" it is "PEDOPHILIA" or "sexual abuse of minors" Given the FACT the victims were CHILDREN... Homosexual is NOT a descriptor for those evil pedophiles. :mad:

[arwalden]

171. Such Shameless Attempts To Re-define Those Crimes...

... as "homosexual encounters" are vile. When people choose to use crafted language like that, they are purposely trying to minimize the criminal aspect of the abuse and/or trying to link homosexuality with pedophilia.

:mad:

[hunter]

32. The Pope is wrong.

Furthermore, he has a huge mess of insidious evil ideologies to clean up in his own house.

[Fridays Child]

33. So, if gay people get married in Iran...

Is the "Ideology of Evil" cancelled out by the "Axis of Evil?" Or is it compounded?

New Evil is like New Math. I don't understand either of them.

[murray hill farm]

36. Oh...that old man is sick and confused...

he lives in the past...and others write his books for him...he is like a sick elderly king with limited life left in him...a symbol only..a figure head only...dont pay him too much attention..leave it to those who believe in him still.

[Old and In the Way]

136. Sick, confused.....and being manipulated?

This isn't the same guy climbing mountains and busting up the Soviet Union of 25 years ago.

How do we even know he uttered those words? He can hardly talk from what I can see and hear. I've always thought he was a conservative guy, but I'd be taking a closer look at the people who are the power behind the throne. His chief of staff is running the show, the Pope is window dressing. Anyone remember Mike Deaver?

I'll tell you what. The church is in big trouble in the USA. It would surprise me not that there is a Quid Pro Quo between this administration and the Vatican. We'll call of the media and DA's if you promote our agenda. Simple as that.

With all the real problems in this world gay marriage should rank about about # 143,496. When was there a vigorous condemnation on unjustified wars of aggression and immoral bombing of innocent civilians comes from the Vatican (if the Pope is saying it, it ain't being heard)?

Seems to me, God's priority would not be with people living and loving together, but with people killing people for oil.

But what do I know? I'm just another practicing ex-Catholic.

[Atlas Mugged]

37. The Catholic Church is officially my enemy

I was born and raised Catholic, and my family is Catholic. But, even my relatives won't go along with this crap. I quit the church many years ago and I'm happily secular, but I was sympathetic to the Pope because of my family's faith. I won't hold my tongue on this subject any longer when I'm at the family reunions.

[HockeyMom]

38. Condoms, Divorce

are EVIL to the Catholic Church. Rest my case.



12 YEARS of Catholic School

[Laurab]

125. But you don't have to get divorced - if you've got the money,

just get an annullment. The church will even tell you how to lie to get one. THEN in the eyes of the church, you were never married, no matter how many children you had, how many years you'd been together. The Catholic church is a business, as most organized religions are. The divorce is bad/annullment is fine thing was one of the many things that turned me away from the church I was raised in.

I refer to myself as a "recovering" catholic. The hypocrisy screamed out at me at a pretty young age, and I KNEW most of the people attending mass weren't doing what the church said they were supposed to.

MY God gives no one a license to judge another. He is loving and kind, and accepting of everyone. I like him way better than any God I ever learned about in an organized religion. Judge not lest you be judged. I think they all need to go back and study their bibles.

[ElectroPrincess]

44. Karl Rove and the rest of the Right Wing radicals LOVE people like you

because you disrespect us LIBERAL Christians.

Can't you see what the RW Religious FREAKS are doing to divide us?

Come on folks, we're missing the issue. If politics and religion were not forced to mesh, The Pope's words would NOT mean squat.

Please consider the above?

[DrWeird]

50. Seems to me that he or she is disrespecting fundamentalists bigots

on not liberal christians.

I'm just saying, because last I heard Karl Rove and the Right Wing love fundamentalist bigots, and not the people who criticize them.

[ElectroPrincess]

59. A number of Pope's declaration have not been anything to

write home about. The Pope once DECLARED, that not only was it NOT a sin to *kill* Queen Elizabeth, but it would be an commendable act.

You see from the above, and a horrible tragedy called "The Inquisition" that our (Catholics) Popes have NOT got it right "moral wise" for quite some time.

Please, without hype - I implore you to consider that The Pope and The Pure Faith of Catholicism are NOT always one in the same.

I love my Catholic faith and feel profound disappointment when my fellow liberals cannot see the above differences and unite with those of us who are inspired by Franciscans and Jesuits.

We are for social justice, however, we are not loud and bravado like the RW Catholic Bishops.

[DrWeird]

66. Well, duh.

Seemed pretty obvious to me that in the post we're discussing that the "catholic church" given the context was implying the Vatican bureaucracy, not Catholicism in general.

[ElectroPrincess]

67. Thank you for your understanding :-) However some folks don't make

the above distinction so seamlessly.

[Dookus]

53. And I'd say

that Rove and the Right Wing love people like YOU, who tolerate the worst sort of hatred because some man who claims to be the Vicar of Christ says such hatred is OK.

When will so-called Liberal Christians walk away from a hateful church?

[ElectroPrincess]

63. The Church (Parish) is the people, you are overlooking a number

of LIBERAL Catholics (Priests and Lay-people) because the USA Bishops and the Pope say things that do not represent our views.

The Pope only has to be taken verbatim when he speaks / invokes infallibility. Rarely (Mary's Immaculate Conception, for example) does this happen.

NO, it's MY (and other Liberal Catholic's) church too.

I guess that you can't understand why I must stay and do what I can in MY liberal deeds. I wish you could because there are MANY like myself who are less bold but do far more than I, i.e., Franciscans, Jesuits, Catholic Workers, etc.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ElectroPrincess]

85. Here you go! Re: Catholic Movements for Peace and Social Justice

The Jesuits: http://www.jesuit.org/sections/default.asp?SECTION_ID=187

The Franciscans: http://www.wtu.edu/franciscan/pages/intro/index.html

Pax Christi: http://www.paxchristiusa.org/

Father John Dear: http://www.fatherjohndear.org/

Access to Catholic Social Justice: http://www.justpeace.org/

The Catholic Worker Movement: http://www.catholicworker.org/

OUR voice is out there, you only need to listen.

[Zenlitened]

88. I didn't see any mention of gay and lesbian civil rights...

... on those pages.

Can you provide deeper links, or some excerpts regrading the ways in which these groups have disagreed with the pope's pronouncements?

[arwalden]

145. (((Crickets Chirping)))

[readmoreoften]

101. I'm sorry the jackboots are too loud.

I am unable to hear your tiny cries to your leaders.

If I can't hear your voice, then you still have work to do. I shouldn't have to go running around with my ears pressed to doors to see if you are speaking up for me.

I'm listening. I want to hear a protest. I want to hear a catholic voice in MSM--even a tiny blurb-- that states that gays are not part of The New Ideology of Evil.

[ElectroPrincess]

86. With respect, what you suggest, is not our way.

[Dookus]

90. We know it's not your way

thus all the resentment.

You support an institution that no longer even bothers to try to hide the hate behind it. By staying on the church rolls, by putting money in the collection plate, by showing up every Sunday, you are implicitly endorsing the bigotry and hatred of the institution.

To say this is unimportant because the pope isn't speaking ex cathedra is nonsense. The Pope is the Pope and his every word wields great power among Catholics. He is endorsing irrational hatred. It's sad to see a man so close to the end of his career focus on continuing to spread hate and fear.

When liberal Catholics speak up, leave their parishes and protest against the Pope, then I'll listen to you. Until then, you're all just good little sheep going along with a hateful and evil ideology.

[RapidCreek]

144. It was Christs way....I guess you must be better than him, eh?

RC

[ElectroPrincess]

161. Absolutely not ... you misinterpret my words and also

use it as an an excuse to insult Liberal Catholics. I hope it makes you feel better because it is a great thrill for RWers to see us arguing over the opinions that Liberal Catholics don't follow.

[RapidCreek]

143. Interesting...why then do you sponsor the Vatican?

If Christ had rationalized the thievery and evilness of the Jewish hierarchy of his day, there wouldn't be a Christian faith.


RC

[sonicx]

54. "If politics and religion were not forced to mesh"

"The Pope's words would NOT mean squat."

Yeah, and that's not the current reality. At least not in America. His langauge is dangerous.

[biftonnorton]

149. Danger, Will Robinson!

His langauge is dangerous.
His langauge is dangerous.
His langauge is dangerous.

And that statement's just scary. His language is stupid, or uninformed, or insane, but calling it "dangerous" sets a scary precedent to judge others' language.

The Pope is gloriously out of touch with real life. I get a warm fuzzy feeling as I think about his irrelevance to my world, but still wish I could have a Popemobile, too.

[Vladimir]

169. If a Muslim cleric pronounced that,

in his view, female sufferage was part of an 'Ideology of Evil', would you still say that his words don't mean squat?

[daleo]

42. Calling people evil for wanting to be married is evil.

Although I don't really care for bandying about the term evil, so I think it would be better to say "stupid and cruel". Which sums up a fair bit of institutional religion and doctrine these days.

[KamaAina]

45. David Frum is writing speeches for the Vatican now?

I mean, c'mon, "_____ of evil" is so cliched it should be on Wired's Forbidden Words list by now.

...Pope John Paul says in a new book published Tuesday.

Oh, and please tell me the book isn't by Simon and Schuster, else we'll have to endure weeks of CBS flogging it every hour on the hour...

[The_Casual_Observer]

48. This Pope isn't facing facts and is taking the side of hatred and bigotry

The real evil here is the intolerance for what I believe is the natural god-given behavior of many human beings. This kind of pronouncement would be much better understood and received in the dark ages, where apparently this Pope belongs.

[Shakespeare]

52. who recently referred to the pope as a "hero?"

Case in point number gazillion-and-one why this man is NOT a hero.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[hezekkia]

56. as long as Popey isn't forcing his will upon govts.

let the geezer rant all he wants. too bad a lot of Catholics will actually take his message to heart, though. :(

[Zenlitened]

73. I invite you look at the history of gay/lesbian rights in Massachusetts

For decades, the catholic church has been the driving force in denying liberty and dignity to GLBT citizens here. :(

[Zenlitened]

91. Also, he imagines (at least) that he's giving marching orders to lawmakers

When legislation in favour of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic law-maker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favour of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral.

When legislation in favour of the recognition of homosexual unions is already in force, the Catholic politician must oppose it in the ways that are possible for him and make his opposition known...

Source: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

Earlier in the same document, he suggests that his pronouncements should apply to non-catholics as well:

Since this question relates to the natural moral law, the arguments that follow are addressed not only to those who believe in Christ, but to all persons committed to promoting and defending the common good of society.

[despairing optimist]

58. Curb your dogma

Is anyone still listening to these homophobic rants? Parishes and parish schools are closing because of declining attendance. I guess that answers my question. People *are* listening, and are answering with their feet and wallets.

Welcome to the light.

[IndianaGreen]

61. Bigotry, misogyny, and intolerance are always bigotry, misogyny, and...

Bigotry, misogyny, and intolerance are always bigotry, misogyny, and intolerance regardless of its source.

I don't care what the Pope, or Falwell & Co, think about abortion, women's rights, or GLBTs. I do care when they use their power and influence to get legislative bodies and governments to enshrine into law their petty bigotry, misogyny, and intolerance.

The Socialist position on religion is absolute:

Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like-minded citizens, associations independent of the state. Only the complete fulfilment of these demands can put an end to the shameful and accursed past when the church lived in feudal dependence on the state, and Russian citizens lived in feudal dependence on the established church, when medieval, inquisitorial laws (to this day remaining in our criminal codes and on our statute-books) were in existence and were applied, persecuting men for their belief or disbelief, violating men’s consciences, and linking cosy government jobs and government-derived incomes with the dispensation of this or that dope by the established church. Complete separation of Church and State is what the socialist proletariat demands of the modern state and the modern church.

Socialism and Religion (1905)
V.I. Lenin

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm

[readmoreoften]

62. OOPS! So I'm just as evil as the Holocaust and abortion

just more insidious and hidden.

And here I just thought I fell in love and was the happiest I've ever been in my life.

Sorry for dooming humankind, but I'm gonna continue to play footsie with my girlfriend and cook her soup when she's sick.

[sffreeways]

65. And why is it evil ?

Nobody wants to offer an explanation not even Mr. Pope. They just say it is so and that's it. Why is it evil ? Well they would offer their reason but of course it's ridiculous.

Because a gay or lesbian marriage's purpose is not to procreate (in other words to make more donators to the church). Of course we all know that to be gay or lesbian does not prevent anyone from reproducing. So it's all about the money.

Please Mr Pope tell us why exactly it's evil, give us your divine rationalization. Please.

Perhaps because the church is still attempting to convince it's followers that sex is evil unless it's to procreate.

Like the pope the catholic churchs days are numbered.

[NervousRex]

68. "a new ideology of evil"

...exactly how I would put state-abetted child-rape....except for the "new" part.

[KittyWampus]

69. Dualism Is Not Productive Outside Mechanics. Humans Aren't Machines

so why hold our behavior to a Philosophy antithetical to our Enlightenment?

[SomewhereOutThere424]

70. Wow, a lot of deleted messages

I guess even DU doesn't want to stand up to the vatican? :shrug:

as for the pope, a man who chooses rome to make messages of hate about people according to his own ideology of hate is just...saddening. It's sad that people have so long forgotten to worship their own god they listen to everything this man says. "A man who comes in the name of god, and then claims to be god, tricking the masses with a false peace and sense of freedom. He comes in the name of jesus, but he is a liar, and he stands for hate". That's basically the biblical standard of the anti christ, yet no one knows better. They just fear the waves of repercussion they'd get from standing up to him...

oh well, I had my five minutes of opinion. I suppose I can stand to see this get deleted too. Atleast I know I don't stand up for the pope and his blasphemes to all the world's religions.

[0007]

72. Why doesn't the Pope take about those leery eyed priest

that salivate over little boys and lie to young girls in the name of God.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

76. People often hide

The bringing of attention to sins they too possess.

[readmoreoften]

74. you know, i'm pretty speechless

To put my relationship on par with the holocaust is to say that my relationship is as dangerous as mass murder and genocide.

This comes after reading a minor news story about a lunch truck that offers a sandwich called a 'fat dyke' (and everyone is irritated that LGBT people are offended)

http://www.dailytargum.com/news/2005/02/16/PageOne/Students.Split.On.Grease.Truck.Names-865457.shtml

It's just a constant barrage of hate. Seriously, I think the only thing keeping us from a mass extermination of queers in this country(of course along side, and because of, the hard working GLBT folks) is the good heterosexual progressives who are standing up for us. Thank you for your support. I truly believe it may be saving our lives.

[KennedyGuy]

78. I think the Pope would be better off looking to his own sanctioned

child abusers within his own church. Yup...gays are evil...unless they happen to be catholic priests.

[Gyre]

79. The holy moran needs to get out more.

But I don't think he's responsible anymore for what dribbles out of his mouth. He's just a tool for his bishops like chimp is for Rove.

Gyre

[jdj]

80. Where the hell is Sinead when you need her.

About the only person in the history of the world to byatch slap the pope, and look how they mistreated her for it.

[AusTexDem]

83. Head Line: Pope Calls Kettle Black

[Disturbed]

89. Equal rights are evil?

Most of the world's religious institutions condem homosexuality. I don't understand why. What is evil or wrong about it? I believe that homosexuals should have all the rights that all other citizens have.

[Zenlitened]

87. "Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law"

For the source of that charming little quote, read the pope's "CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS
TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION TO UNIONS BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS"

It's quite an eye-opener.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

Since this question relates to the natural moral law, the arguments that follow are addressed not only to those who believe in Christ, but to all persons committed to promoting and defending the common good of society.

... Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behaviour, with the consequence of making it a model in present-day society, but would also obscure basic values which belong to the common inheritance of humanity.

Those who would move from tolerance to the legitimization of specific rights for cohabiting homosexual persons need to be reminded that the approval or legalization of evil is something far different from the toleration of evil.

Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development

[MAlibdem]

92. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Hey, Pope, are you Jewish? No? Then shut up.

Comparing a concerted effort to wipe one group off the face of the earth with allowing women control over their bodies is a wildly false analogy.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

98. Where Do The "Progressive" Catholics Stand On This?

[Dookus]

99. they stand in the nave

shaking their heads, but still dropping ten bucks in the collection plate.

[arwalden]

104. That Sounds A Lot Like CONSENT...

... or approval.

[readmoreoften]

106. maybe they think if they speak too loud

someone will call them gay.

I don't get it. You either oppose it or you don't. I don't get these gestures towards subtlety. I have a lot of straight people-- religious and not-- that it will all be just fine. They say that love of GLBT people's at an all-time high and that I shouldn't worry. Just a little glitch in the system and everyone will come around to the sane viewpoint. Meanwhile, none of them are fighting loudly. Why? Because it's all gonna be okay. No need to fight.

Note to Catholics: please fight with us and fight loudly, because it's not going to be okay unless we make it okay.

[Dookus]

110. It's the same mindset

of otherwise-liberal people who let their sons be Boy Scouts. They find an infinite number of ways to justify their support of bigotry.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

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[IndianaGreen]

159. The Vatican's treatment of GLBT Catholics is the source of the hate

The open hostility to gays and lesbians by the Catholic Church is shocking. Before we indulge in the mantra of "Christian bashing," or "Catholic bashing" in this case, let's put the blame where it rightly belongs: on the shitty and immoral way in which the Catholic Church has treated the gay Catholic faithful and the way in which it has protected the child abusers.

If you plant the seeds of hatred, don't be surprised when its fruits come back to bite you in the ass.

I have several Catholic friends, some of whom are gay, and except for the one that thinks that Opus Dei is fine and dandy (Hi, John!), the majority of them are really in deep pain and sorrow about a Church that they used to believe and love.

Now, having the Pope say that suffering is part of life and that it is good to suffer, as a way to attack health consciousness, is just one more disturbing statement from the Vatican. I would like to see the Pope attack the corporations for the suffering they bring to the world and to their workers, but then, that's hoping for too much.

Now, we are a long ways from the reforms of Pope John XXIII, my favorite Pope of all time. But as a Jew, I have nothing but admiration for the way the current Pope has brought the Church to recognize the evil it has done in the past in encouraging and promoting anti-Semitism. I don't agree with him on Pius XII, but Pius has defenders among the Jewish community.

The animus against the Pope and the Catholic Church is the direct result of what the Church has done to earn it. Calling all criticism of the Vatican bashing ignores the reasons why so many people are angry. If the Vatican had not tried to have its views enacted as legislation, as they have in Spain, Ireland, and Italy, you wouldn't have such anger directed at the Vatican.

[arwalden]

166. Holy Shit On A Stick!! --- "You're too blinded by hate to try"

Wow! So because we stand up and speak out and fight back against hatred and bigotry... then gays and lesbians are the ones who are "blinded by hate"??

Un-fucking-believable! :eyes:

>> You don't know what's in our hearts <<

You mean it gets worse? Is there more to come? Is this just the beginning? Prior to this, I had no idea just EXACTLY how much the RCC loathes and despises the "evil" homosexuals.

[Misunderestimator]

170. Oh dear....

"You mean it gets worse?" God save us all... or someone.

[Old and In the Way]

137. Pretty much outside the church, IMO.

Jesuit HS/College education here....I'm history. Social justice and activism are dead issues.

The quality of parish Priests have gone downhill, too. I think it's become a place for the socially weak to escape to. Every year, we go to Christmas/Eastar Mass.....the sermons are pathetic. "When I was growing up, Christmas meant to me...", really lame and uninspiring.

[Misunderestimator]

163. I'd be interested in knowing where the "Gay" Catholics stand on this

the gay apologist catholics that is...

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

103. 100 years from now Pope John Paul the 85th will say

"The mass wave of hatred that caused deaths of hundreds of thousands of homosexuals in the US was the one of the Great Evils of the 21st century. For the crime of wanting to live comfortably in loving, stable relationships, they were characterized as Insidious Evil by many religious leaders of their time (but not so much the Catholic Church, although we could have done more for them, we admit.)

We must pause to reflect on what a horrible evil that persecution was, and we must turn our attention to the New Ideology of Evil in our 22nd Century: the Insidious Evil of(fill in the blank)."

[Politicub]

108. Your post was chilling to read

It scares me how much gays are routinely demonized today.

[Merrick]

102. When did Archie Bunker become Pope? And boy is HE gay

or else he wouldn't be so hung up on it. Same with Bush. The Pope and Bush should face facts and do it already. I bet it'd be the catalyst to ushering in a bright, beautiful new world of peace, love and understanding.

[superconnected]

105. this is sad when even the pope can't get LOVE as the main msg out of the

Bible - NT. Plenty of gays certianly can. Whether it's love your neighbor love God etc. they get it. It doesn't say decide everyone who doesn't think like you is evil and get biggotted against groups you don't agree with.

But here we are, legalization of religon.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

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[buddysmellgood]

111. No, that's an ideology of recruitment. You're looking in the wrong chapter

of their manual.

[soaky]

113. being a pedophile does not = gay

i'm so fricking sick of that link being made

[Zenlitened]

117. Forgotten female victims

Critics of Vatican say girls forgotten: Ban on gay priests called off the mark
Boston Herald
by Robin Washington
Thursday, November 7, 2002

As the Vatican puts its finishing touches on a policy likely to blame gay priests for the pedophile scandal, victim advocates say the church has failed to acknowledge that a significant number of children abused by clergy were girls.

``Almost half the phone calls I get are from women. The Vatican's suggestion that this is a gay priest issue is utterly off the mark,'' said Anne Hagen Webb, a psychologist and New England co-director of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.

On Tuesday, the Vatican Press Office issued a statement on the new policy, prepared in response to the sex abuse scandal, after news media in Rome reported the initial draft asks seminaries to bar men with ``homosexual tendencies.''

But Webb, an alleged victim of a Rhode Island monsignor from kindergarten until the seventh grade, called the attempt to link pedophilia to homosexuality misguided, and said 40 percent of attendees at SNAP meetings and those calling the group for help are female.

http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.46/aid.9443/column.htm

[IndianaGreen]

121. The Nazis blamed the Jews, the Vatican blames the gays

I am not sure to what extend the Pope is responsible for policies promulgated under his name. The Vatican has never been known for its candor, and just as the Vatican has been less than forthcoming about the Pope's health, it is safe to assume that it is probably withholding information about the Pope's mental state.

Let us use the same analysis we would have use with Bush and the White House. Who controls access to the Pope? The answer is Joaquin Navarro Vails, the Pope's secretary. Navarro Vails's role is a combination of Bush's Chief of Staff Andrew Carr and Bush's chief political hatched man, Karl Rove. Navarro Vails is a member of the secret rightwing cult Opus Dei. Key positions in the Vatican are held by Opus Dei.

The chief ideologist for the Vatican is Cardinal Ratzinger, whose official title is Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the old office of the Holy Inquisition. Ratzinger is not known to be a member of Opus Dei, at least not openly like Cardinal Juan Luis Cipriani of Lima, Peru. But Ratzinger did say that Opus Dei's pro-Franco founder, Josemaría Escrivá, was "was only an instrument with which God had acted."

So the question remains, how much control does the Pope has over the Vatican? How much influence does Opus Dei have over the Pope and the Vatican?

[Zenlitened]

119. Also... Pedophilia as 'a separate sexual orientation.'

(The) claim that... pedophiles are gay stems from "a flawed assumption" that men who prey on young boys also are attracted to grown men, says Johns Hopkins University psychiatrist Frederick Berlin, an expert on sexual disorders.

(snip)

... clinical experience with pedophiles suggests "it's kind of a separate sexual orientation," says David Finkelhor, author of four books on child sexual abuse and director of the Crimes Against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire. "Often they have no attraction to adults whatsoever."

Bancroft agrees. "They're men interested in children. They're more interested in boys than girls, but they're interested in kids, not adults."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/2002-07-15-church-gay_x.htm

[soaky]

124. thanks for the additional links Zenlitened eom

[drduffy]

118. where does the evil lay

Any relationship that is typified by love, respect and mutual care is holy

Many christians recognize and concur with that premise.
The ones who don't also don't have an inkling about what Christ stood for.

They are simply bigots - and in this instance, probably repressed homosexuals, angry at their own tendencies and by substitution, angry at every gay person. An old Freudian sort of interpretation that still holds water today.

These people ain't got a clue about what it means to try to be Christ-like.

By the way, I am not a Christian but I can respect the good parts.

richard

[keopeli]

122. Thanks for the post, drduffy - and Welcome to DU!

Some good thoughts and intersting insight there. Keep chiming in!
Welcome to DU!

:toast:

Keo

[readmoreoften]

123. welcome drduffy n/t

[IndianaGreen]

126. German Jews condemn the Pope's comparison of abortion to the Holocaust

From the BBC:

The president of Germany's Central Council for Jews, Paul Spiegel, linked the remarks to statements by Roman Catholic Cardinal Joachim Meisner in January comparing abortions to the repressions of Hitler and Stalin.

"The Catholic Church does not understand or does not want to understand that there is an enormous difference between mass genocide and what women do with their bodies," he told the Netzeitung daily last week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4288103.stm

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

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[readmoreoften]

131. Oh, he's welcome to his freedom of speech

but so is everyone else and we can wish anything we want.

But there's also consequences to what you say. That's why Mother always says to 'think before you speak'. When you say to your 1 billion followers that a group of people are The New Evil, don't be surprised if those people and their friends/family despise you.

I despise him. Of course I would always welcome his repentance.

[Hippo_Tron]

128. Let's play: Guess what the pope is blessing now

Any guesses?

[biftonnorton]

151. I'll Play!

I'm gonna guess he's "blessing the little bishop," after which he'll wail and gnash his teeth as penance. }(

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

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[girl gone mad]

134. Human rights vs. the family.

Funny, I never realized the two were mutually exclusive.

I think the Pope should say what he means. Secular humanism is a threat to the bigotry of the church and gay marriage threatens their cash flow, since gays procreate much less.

[nolabels]

138. The evil road is the one paved with good intentions

Pontification comes from the root word pope (or so I have heard) and organized religion is an oxymoron (or so it seems).


http://home.olemiss.edu/~rrychlak/morphing/outsideframe.htm

Papal Authority and the Weakening of German Catholic Politicians

Pacelli's work in Germany was critical in the emasculation of German Catholic political parties. "In 1933 Pacelli found a successful negotiating partner in Adolf Hitler. Their treaty authorized the papacy to impose the new Church law on German Catholics and granted generous privileges to Catholic schools and clergy. In exchange, the Catholic Church in Germany, its parliamentary political party, and its hundreds of associations and newspapers "voluntarily" withdrew, following Pacelli's initiative, from social and political action" (ibid, pages 6-7).

Conversely, Dr Gumpel claims that "If Pius XI had refused the negotiations, Hitler would have said: I extended a hand of peace, but it was brutally rejected. The persecution of the Catholic Church which existed already on local levels would have become an official and severe persecution" (Cornwell's Pope: A Nasty Caricature of a Noble and Saintly Man). However, given that the extensive Canon Law was the creation of Pacelli and his Vatican masters sixteen years earlier, it seems disingenuous to claim that the Vatican reluctantly acquiesced to Hitler.

It is difficult to understate the gift that had thus been handed to the forces of tyranny. After the signing of this Reich Concordat, the Nazis could rise to power, unopposed by the most powerful Catholic community in the world. Hitler would have been aware of relatively recent (1870s) German history and how German Catholics had defeated--from the grass roots--Bismarck's Kulturkampf persecutions. In a 1933 cabinet meeting, the Führer boasted that this left him free to deal with the Jewish question. As the minutes stated, the Concordat gave the Nazis an opportunity of "particular significance in the development of the struggle against international Jewry".

German Catholics sidelined

Once in power, Hitler dissolved the once-powerful Catholic Zentrum party and began a campaign of persecution, not just against the Jews but against the Catholic press, trade unions and youth groups
(snip)
http://www.vision.org/bkrev/br000309.html

http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm

[Nimrod]

139. ::spits water::

BUAHAHAHA!

Okay, that's it. I'm going to get a t-shirt made that says "T-shirt Of Evil". Maybe a coffee mug: "Coffee Of Evil". A tag for my cat: "Kitty Of Evil".

This "of Evil" thing has now officially gotten silly. Before it was just ridiculous, but now it's just plain silly.

[Skittles]

140. want me to kick your evil ass, Nimrod?

just say the word :hi:

[Nimrod]

141. Tease!

:)

[moobu2]

154. self deleted

[Vladimir]

146. I wonder if this book will be available in Britain

and if it is, if anyone will bother suing the Pope under various incitement to hatered acts that we now have in this country. Certainly if this were a Muslim cleric speaking, most of the taboids would be calling for his blood... oh but I forgot, the pope is a cuddly old white guy, whereas the Muslim cleric is brown and has a beard. Mea culpa...

[ElectroPrincess]

147. I'm sorry but you just don't get it ...

If you take some time to read the information, specifically within the Franciscan philosophy, you would quickly realize that we are NOT supposed to be arrogant and loud.

I can understand why you "hate the oppressors" but IMO hate will not get us social justice. Only dedication and works of continued love and good will.

If the above sounds to "wimpy" for you then I regret that you will probably never get it.

[arwalden]

150. What's NOT To Get? It Seems VERY Clear To Me!

>> If you take some time to read the information, specifically within the Franciscan philosophy, you would quickly realize that we are NOT supposed to be arrogant and loud. <<

I'm sorry... the vagueness of that sentence makes me wonder a couple of things.

We-who? About whom are you speaking when you say that "we" are not supposed to be arrogant and loud? We-Catholics? We-the church?

And what are you talking about when you say "arrogant and loud"? Are you referring to parishioners protesting, speaking out against, and defying church edicts? Or are you talking about the church leaders being arrogant and loud with their hate and bigotry?

>> I can understand why you "hate the oppressors" but IMO hate will not get us social justice. Only dedication and works of continued love and good will. <<

Your alternative is... what? LOVE the oppressors? CONSENT to the oppressors' will? SUPPORT AND VALIDATE them? CODDLE them? BARGAIN with them? IGNORE them?

Or shall we FIGHT and OPPOSE the hatred and bigotry?

This Pope is just as hateful, bigoted, mentally ill and EVIL as Fred "God-Hates-Fags" Phelps.

-- Allen

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

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[arwalden]

167. No-o-o-o... You Silly-Sally!

Obviously, when those nasty little homos start to speak out and fight back... then it's WE who are the "haters" and it's THEY who are the "victims".

We're oppressing them.

[Misunderestimator]

168. Indeed.... someone has confused fighting back and objecting to oppression

and hate as hatred... how very odd that is. :hi:

[arwalden]

165. So... You Don't Wish To Respond To My Questions?

>> If you wish to "hate them" as much as they "hate you" then you do not understand The Catholic Faith and Christianity in general. <<

I ask for clarification of what you meant by your previous post and rather than trying to explain what you mean, you respond by suggesting that I'm incapable of understanding??

Again, I ask, "what's not to understand?" Other than calling for our executions and extermination, I don't think that the RCC can be ANY MORE CLEAR in expressing exactly how they feel.

>> I forgive your profane gestures toward me and mine - because you are blinded by your hatred to choose to promote goodwill in this world. <<

Oh brother! :eyes: Sorry... that's right... you and yours are the victims. I forgot! :eyes: How silly of me!

>> I hope you find your way in this world but "let go" of attempting to describe mine. <<

Is that a new variation of the dismissive "I'll-pray-for-you" response?

Actually I don't know you, so I cannot describe you or your true feelings. But I can make some logical assumptions based on your words and on the words and actions of others. I do find it VERY peculiar when others (who claim to be supportive of gays and lesbians) choose to defend and OWN the clear hatred coming from others in their church and in particular the head of the RCC.

[Walt Starr]

148. This coming from one of the more evil men in the world

:eyes:

Spare me, Karol. You have no credibility.

[Vidar]

152. John Paul did his part, was a hero, but now comes off a bitter old man,

serving the forces of evil, rather than fighting them.

[Misunderestimator]

153. I feel sooo special now....

that some sick, twisted, evil old man thinks I'm evil. How quaint.

[moobu2]

156. What wikipedia says about EVIL

Evil is a term describing that which is morally bad, corrupt, wantonly destructive, selfish, and wicked. In most Christian and Western cultures, and some Eastern ones, the word is used to describe acts, and sometimes thoughts and ideas, commonly known as sin, that are thought to originate with Satan and challenge the law or will of God.

Evil is one half of the duality of good and evil expressed, in some form or another, by many cultures. It describes a hierarchy of moral standards with regard to human behaviour; evil being the least desired, while love is usually the most praised. In essence "evil" is a term for those things which (either directly or causally) bring about withering and death - the opposite of life. In casual or derogatory use, the word "evil" can characterize people and behaviours that are hurtful, ruinous, or disastrous.

A similar term, malice (from the Latin mal meaning "bad") describes the deliberate human intent to harm and be harmful. "Evil," by contrast, tends to represent a more elemental concept; a disembodied spirit that is natural and yet abominable. Whereas "malice" belongs to the specific, "evil" is the foundation for malice.

In a number of religious traditions, "evil" is widely considered to be a mystery; that life and its rules are "governed" by an innate benevolence, and behavior that directly contradicts "good nature" is not understandable in moral and reasoning terms. "Evil" characterizes and describes aspects of human beings that deviate from the social, loving, righteous, natures within, which in contrast lead to social strength, and continuing survival, through love. In the forms of malice and selfishness, evil represents the socially weakening and destructive behaviors that lead directly to a fruitless life and death.

The Abrahamic religions, as well as others, are largely centered around the concepts of good and evil, and this has led to much religious debate. Many cultures and mythologies personify evil, such as with Satan in Christianity. Others describe evil spirits or demons as the inciters of acts.

In Christianity, young children are considered to be good, and free of evil, though not of original sin as defined in the Bible. As they grow older, however, they can develop evil characteristics. The three main characteristics of an evil person are:

Pride: "I am better than you are."
Hypocrisy: "I have higher standards for others than for self."
Indifference: "I do not care."

Note that "self" does not necessarily have to mean "one's self," but also to the various units, groups, and demographics to which one belongs (e.g. family, school, team, generation, nationality, race, religion, etc.) Indifference is what binds together the total contradiction of pride (superiority) and hypocrisy (lower standards). Without it, the person could not stand his or her own evil.

Western societies among others, often use the term evil as general label for particularly “bad” or morally corrupt people. Thus, those who engage in any of a number of crimes thought to be particular heinous or morally wrong are label evil, including rapists, child molesters, serial killers, terrorists, and genocidal dictators. Some people, especially for religious reasons, include perpetrators of controversial acts they view as wrong as such as homosexual behavior or abortions. Because of disagreements whether these acts are immoral there is little agreement that the perpetrators of these acts are evi

wikipedia.org

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

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[moobu2]

164. This is from CNN on some of the senile old farts quotes in his book

In following paragraphs he says that legally elected parliaments in formerly totalitarian countries were today allowing what he called new forms of evil and new exterminations.

"There is still, however a legal extermination of human beings who have been conceived but not yet born," he writes.

"And this time we are talking about an extermination which has been allowed by nothing less than democratically elected parliaments where one normally hears appeals for the civil progress of society and all humanity," he writes.

In Germany, a leader of the country's Central Council of Jews called the comparison unacceptable.

At a news conference presenting the book, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican's top doctrinal official, dismissed the Jewish charges.

Ratzinger said the Pope "was not trying to put the Holocaust and abortion on the same plane" but only warning that evil lurked everywhere, "even in liberal political systems."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/23/pope.book.reut/index.html

[CTyankee]

173. The Pope can join the Republicans

in kissing my white and pasty ass.

[Moderator]

172. Locking

This discussion has become a flamefest.

Thank you.
DU Moderator.