At Least Three Shot Outside Texas Courthouse

[truthpusher]

http://www.local6.com/news/4229784/detail.html

Reports: At Least Three Shot Outside Texas Courthouse

POSTED: 3:36 pm EST February 24, 2005

TYLER, Texas -- A man with a high-powered rifle opened fire in the town square Thursday and shot at least three people, including a deputy, a U.S. Marshal said.

It was not immediately clear if anyone was killed.

"He had a rifle, and he was shooting at the back of the courthouse and he shot some glass out, shot a deputy sheriff there and two other civilians," said Deputy U.S. Marshal John Walker.

(snip)

Television footage showed at least one person lying on the courthouse steps. A spokeswoman at the East Texas Medical Center said wounded people have been admitted, but did not have more details.

"From what I understand at this moment, there was a guy upset about a court case going on, possibly a paternity case," Walker said.

story: http://www.local6.com/news/4229784/detail.html

[mhr]

1. Tyler Texas - Home To Fundies And Freepers

And the largest Baptist church in the USA.

[fudge stripe cookays]

2. Holy crap.

Literally.

I thought we had a Worship Bowl here. That sucker's huge.

FSC

[MissMarple]

3. Lots of personal relationships with Christ going on in there.

I'm quite sure. :eyes:

[CottonBear]

7. Worship Bowl! LOL!

I've never heard that one. I'll try to work that into a conversation this week.

edit: That church is FUGLY! The architecture and site planning (or lack thereof) leave much to be desired. It doesn't look like those Baptists believe in trees.

[never_get_over_it]

14. Who needs trees when the end is near n/t

[Anakin Skywalker]

51. Fundies Hate Nature.

Paradise is...well, somewhere else, to them.

[montana_hazeleyes]

59. Didn't St. Ronnie

claim that trees were dangerous?

[Pepperbelly]

9. LOL

Worship Bowl!

:toast:

[Horse with no Name]

12. Thats not even half of it--it spreads down almost

a half mile with different buildings, etc.
Green Acres Baptist Church.

[rainbow4321]

21. Texas and it's megachurches .. .here is a virtual tour of one of them

Baptist and Methodist churches down here usually take up a block or 2...some needing police directing traffic on Sunday mornings-- they have remote parking and the fundies look like a gaggle of geese crossing the street..very annoying if you happen to be driving past.

Rule of thumb: Go to where ever it is you need to go on Sunday DURING their morning services cuz every business is empty.."hey, we better get to IHOP before the church people get out"

http://www.prestonwood.org/sites/document.asp?did=4468

Take a virtual tour of Prestonwood Baptist that is here...sports and fitness center, "fireside room", "mainstreet cafe". Go to the link and click on the red dots for the virtual tours of each room.

And from their "where to park" section":
"We are looking for 500 people (200 vehicles) in both the 9:15 and 11:00 a.m. services who will park in our FastTrack shuttle lot"

500 PEOPLE...I vaguely remember the overall congregation having around 14,000. Now imagine if even half of these people attend Sunday Services how huge this place has to be!

[fudge stripe cookays]

31. And coincidentally...

that is the Worship Bowl to which I was referring... :D

Friends have reported various violations from these folks. Bush signs IN the classroom, and the "right reverend" preaching Bush-speak FROM the pulpit, saying how Kerry voters were going to hell or somesuch.

FSC

[rainbow4321]

44. Their cafe menu: "Would you like kool-aid, kool-aid, or kool-aid?" n/t

[rainbow4321]

54. Sits on 135 acres and listed as being worth $14.7 million

according to Collin County's tax records...all tax exempt.

[Justitia]

46. Ahh yes, Prestonwood Baptist - aka "Six Flags Over Jesus"

What a vulgarity in every sense of the word.

Every time I used to pass that disgusting den of iniquity, I thought how easily the homeless problem could be solved if Prestonwood CHURCH would just let all the homeless in TX sleep inside their CHURCH at night. Hell, the heating and cooling bills for that pit should be used for something the 6 days a week it sits void of occupants. Even has a gym and cafeteria. The homeless could eat and shower there.

But no, it's a CHURCH! No letting those disgusting homeless people in - especially the full one-third that are veterans of wars we vote for!

Sorry to go off on a rant, but this place turns my stomach. :puke:

[rainbow4321]

52. I got the congregation number wrong--it's closer to 20,000 people...

Just saw it on another website... and what a wonderful leader they have, huh? <see below>


http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.06.21/news4.html

Vines, who is the religious leader of the 25,000-member First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Fla., reportedly referred to Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives, the last one of which was a 9-year-old girl." The Baptist leader also criticized "religious pluralism" and argued that "Islam is not just as good as Christianity."

According to an Associated Press report, Graham, the religious leader of the 20,000-member Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano, Texas, declined to condemn Vines's remarks, describing them as "accurate." On Sunday, however, Graham and Vines sounded a more conciliatory tone from their respective pulpits, saying that they love Muslim people. But neither pastor offered an apology or retraction.

[IronGolem]

74. The new art of rhetoric

"The Baptist leader also criticized "religious pluralism" and argued that "Islam is not just as good as Christianity."


Yes, the "my god can beat up your god" school of theocratic rhetoric. Must be winning converts left and right with this sort of weighty argument...

Oh, yeah. Forgot the intended audience... *smacks forehead* D'oh!

[fudge stripe cookays]

61. Mine too.

And your sobriquet definitely beats mine!

What a bunch of selfish fucks!
FSC

[argyl]

26. We've got a real behemoth being built here in Denton, Christian bible

church or something along those lines. Worship Bowl, that's a great description. That's too good to keep secret here at DU. I can see this phrase making its way into general usage.

[fudge stripe cookays]

33. You may use it with my blessing....

:D

Spread it far and wide! It's not Christianity. It's the furthest thing from it. And I plan on doing my part to piss these people off as much as possible.

FSC

[girl gone mad]

38. I drive past that one on the weekends..

nice to see the normal sized church accross the street for reference.

I used to live near Prestonwood They didn't just tie up traffic on Sunday mornings, they also had things going on every Wednesday and Friday (aand often other nights, too), and I would always end up in gridlock just driving to the grocery store or returning a movie to Blockbuster. Most of their parking lots were accross the street from the main church building, so they would have police out directing traffic so the herd could safely cross. it seems like they should have been able to afford a pedestrian bridge. After all, they had their own private bowling alley.

I remember when they moved out of their giant "worship center" that took up a city block because it wasn't big enough for them anymore. That was an eye opener.

[blackspade]

77. the one here in louisville

is refered to as the God-Dome.
It's freekin huge and getting bigger.
all of my corporate managers are members. scary.

[alwynsw]

84. That one's not Baptist. It's S.E. Christian.

I'm still amazed that the deaths and injuries are being ignored in favor of religion bashing in this thread.

Incredible.

[jayfish]

8. I Wonder How Many Schools Could Have Been Renovated With That Money.

I love it how the Fundies abhor taxes but gladly give their money to the emissaries of the Cloud-Being for Bullshit like this. :puke:

Jay

[chickenscratching]

22. what would billy graham say

this made me think about when i was doing temp work and i was assigned to work for billy graham, taking calls etc....and you wouldn't believe the people that are leaving everything to good ol' billy upon their death...(estate included)
scary...i could tell you some scary stories about that place...

[DBoon]

37. or how many homeless sheltered?

or how many starving people fed?

or how many sick people cured?

Jesus is weeping.

[girl gone mad]

39. But the people at church are mostly white...

and mostly middle class, so it's different, you see.

[TroglodyteScholar]

15. OT: Reminds me of the one I used to live near in Hoover, Alabama...

Hunter Street Baptist Church -- their website is very thorough.

[athenap]

55. OT Again...at least you guys don't have to look at...

the amazing Quicksand Jesus!
"I'm melllllttiiiinnnnnngggg....."
He'll get you and your little dog, too....



See him in all his...er, glory at the link below (didn't want to include that image inline because it's monstrous and I didn't want to mess up the horizontal scrolling for people...

http://www.solidrockchurch.org/

[despairing optimist]

89. As Nathanael West wrote, few things are sadder than the truly monstrous

[merh]

16. Looks sorta like the one here! Do they model them after each other?

We call the one here the baptist convention center or resort

[TroglodyteScholar]

64. OT yet still

Biloxi! My people are from down there. Very churchy place to be...I'm the first non-Baptist in my family for who knows how long (well, second if you count my brother the philosopher).

[HippieCowgirl]

17. Is that Jesus Christ Memorial Stadium?

[Justitia]

47. or the BaptiDome??? -eom

[Bluebear]

19. .

.

[tx_dem41]

29. And my Democratic relatives....appreciate the concern,

mhr. Hope you had fun scoring some cheap political points, over the real concern some might have for loved ones.

[mhr]

45. And Your Point Would Be What?

eom

[CBGLuthier]

63. I think his point would be the same as mine

Not to put words in his mouth but we have a post about a shooting in Texas followed by 30+ inane comments about churches and fundies and not one goddamn statement about the fact that three people have been shot.

Just the usual BS belittling people that none of you know or care about or anything.

Because everthing that happens anywhere other than the holy fucking lands of the blue states is just a joke to 60% of the people on DU.

[Anakin Skywalker]

50. Thanks for the Warning.

Yuck! I will make sure never to set foot there.

[slackmaster]

57. David Hernandez Arroyo

Now there's a typical Freeper/Baptist name for you.

:crazy:

[zann725]

80. And the 'home' of HGTV's 2005 Dream Home!

Which they're giving away any day now. They've been trying to promote Tyler as such a safe, upscale place to live! THIS should seal that promo!

[cosmicdot]

90. that's corect ... I hope I win ... but, don't plan to live there ... n/m

[lebkuchen]

81. Then this thread isn't really new news

It's TX culture.

[alwynsw]

83. Isn't that sweet.

Forget the innocent dead and wounded. Ignore the fact that a man - a bystanding civilian at that - sacrificed his own life while protecting other innocents. Forget all that and use this tragedy as another opportunity to attack religion and freepers.

It matters not what the religious persuasion or political bent of the victims are/were. Dead people in a scenario like this is never a good thing unless you count the idiot with the AK and body armor..

[Jane Austin]

88. Also home to puppy mills.

Lots of them.

The Texas rescue groups have their hands full trying to deal with these people.

[sasquatch]

4. Well I see they're trying to keep the FReeper population down

I bagged my limit last week
:evilgrin:

[tx_dem41]

30. Nice...

I have Democratic relatives that live in Tyler. Guess, you think they would have just been collateral damage if they had been shot. :eyes:

[sasquatch]

32. Sorry it was just a joke!

:(

[tx_dem41]

34. Sorry for snapping.

And, thank you for the apology. It just hit close to home.

[truthpusher]

40. Ah, the love.....

:pals:

[tx_dem41]

41. We DUers...

are just one big lovefest, aren't we? ;-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Good thing they got conceal and carry laws in Texas

Bet the guy was a law abiding citizen before today...no?

[ComplimentarySwine]

25. Actually

In Texas, I believe that rifles such as the one used here do not require any license to cary. That CHL laws should only come into effect if he was carying a handgun.

[TyObe]

56. The guy with the CCW probably saved some lives.

If you read the articles, you'd see that a citizen with a CCW traded fire with the perp before being shot and killed (the perp was wearing a bulletproof vest).

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. uh...no..the guy with the CCW lost his own

Another great reason the law really doesn't offer protection

(on edit: although I do concede that the CCW law is not responsible for the shooter since as the poster above stated, the shooter was not using a handgun)

[NickB79]

66. To be fair, bulletproof vests are a rarity on most criminals

This is the first time I've heard of a criminal wearing a bulletproof vest since that bank robbery in California a few years ago with those two nutjobs with illegal, real assault rifles.

[fudge stripe cookays]

62. Correct me if I'm wrong, weapons folks....

but didn't some of our conceal and carry law come as a side effect of the Luby's shooting? I read a book about it a few years ago, and it seems like one of the guys in the restaurant wished he'd been able to bring his gun in to take Hennard down, but he'd locked it in his trunk.

My brother was almost there that day (he was working at setting up the sound system for a club in Killeen and they'd eaten there nearly every day for several weeks), but they were late leaving, and some guy came running in, saying "Dudes! Something's up at Luby's! Cops and everything!"

Not that it matters, he's practically dead to me anyway-- he's written me off. But at the time it was pretty scary.

FSC

[Art_from_Ark]

65. I think it was a lady at the Luby's

who was really pushing for the conceal and carry law. She had seen her parents gunned down, and was pissed because she said she could have had a clean shot at the perp.

[fudge stripe cookays]

72. That sounds right.

I think her father was a veterinarian or something.

Thanks.
FSC

[alwynsw]

85. I know a couple that were at Luby's that joined the fight for CCW

A close friend was hit (6 months in the hospital and rehab)and her business partner's mother was killed while they were there for lunch.

[fudge stripe cookays]

87. How awful.

I'm so sorry for your friend.

I know so many people that had friends who ate there often, or knew someone who was there and made it, or had eaten there before. It just hit so close to home for so many people.

FSC

[Dolomite]

73. CCW does save lives

Regarding the Luby's incident:
One of the survivors went on to be elected to the Texas legislature; Suzanna Gratia-Hupp.

She watched her parents at Luby's die that day, while her .38 was in her glove compartment of her car in the parking lot outside. She was afraid of breaking the law.

Then-governor Richardson vetoed one CCW bill, with the public comment that Texans weren't smart enough to be allowed to carry guns.

Texans remembered both ladys, and their words, at the elections that followed. Leading up to the following:

From one of yesterday's articles - The other victim, Mark Alan Wilson, 52, was credited by authorities with saving the life of David Hernandez Arroyo Jr., who was listed in fair condition at a hospital with leg wounds. Mark Alan Wilson had a Texas pistol permit.

RIP Mark Wilson.

[fudge stripe cookays]

78. That's her.

But that would be then-governor Ann Richards. FYI.

FSC

[primavera]

86. Well, that certainly didn't take long...

Somehow, I just knew it was only a matter of time before someone from the Gungeon came along to remind us of how wonderfully safe we'd all be if only everyone were armed to the teeth.

[ComplimentarySwine]

92. Link?

http://cbs11tv.com/localstories/local_story_056101946.html

[Wright Patman]

6. Hey, that's just down the road from me

I've been to that church also. I didn't know it was the largest in the USA, but it's pretty gigantic.

What is fortunate for the wounded is that a Level I trauma unit at East Texas Medical Center is only a couple of miles from the courthouse. That's where I was helicoptered a little over a year ago after an SUV ran off the road into me head-on going about 40 mph and catapulted me about 80 feet.

Needless to say, I was nearly dead, but they revived me on the chopper and by the time I made it to the trauma unit, I was once again fully alive, even though in more pain than I thought it possible to live through.

[CottonBear]

11. Ouch! Are you OK now? n/t

[Wright Patman]

13. I am fantastic!

I broke about 15 to 20 bones, collapsed a lung, lacerated my face, but I fully recovered within a couple of months. And I am not that young either. It was totally miraculous. Thanks for asking.

[CarlWoodward]

10. wow

That church is massive. I wonder how many poor families they could have fed with the money that went into building that monstrosity?

[Benhurst]

18. They obviously didn't waste any money getting a good architect. NT

[not fooled]

53. Great Line!

"They obviously didn't waste any money getting a good architect"

!!!

[Sentath]

23. Steeplehouse vs. the least of these

I wonder how many people the monthly maintenance bill for that would feed, clothe and house?

[Bluebear]

20. What a MAGNIFICENT church!!!! Crying here...

[fudge stripe cookays]

36. Ha!

Thanks for the giggle, blue bear!

FSC

[Wright Patman]

24. To update this

they just broke into a local channel to say that two are dead, three wounded by the shooter, and that the shooter himself was gunned down as he fled in a vehicle up U.S. Hwy 271 (which comes through my community as well). TV video showed the man (white guy in his 40s or 50s) lying in the middle of the highway like so much roadkill.

I would imagine since two law enforcement officers were wounded at the couthouse that there was no plan to take the man alive.

And now back to Dr Phil.

[mhr]

27. Just What The Fundies And Freepers Want For The Evening News

They will say he did not spend enough time at Green Acres so got what he deserved for being a heathen.

Typical Fundie/Freeper rationalizations.

[0007]

35. .....Dr Phil is talking about anal retention!

[anakie]

28. Incidents like this are hardly surprising

with a similar incident to this happening almost weekly. I guess this will continue to happen in a country with unmitigated access to firearms.

[louis-t]

42. Sounds like death penalty is puttin' fear of God into

Tejas wackos. Yes, we all know the death penalty deters murd-what? It doesn't? The dickens, you say!

[havocmom]

43. Probably has more to do with poor anger management

It's not the guns that go off half cocked.

[rainbow4321]

48. Per 5 pm news just now: the gunman died...

and it sounded like they said one of the victims was his ex wife...

[Wright Patman]

49. Latest update

http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2994393

[girl gone mad]

60. From the linked article:

The two killed at the courthouse have now been identified: Maribel Estrada, the estranged wife of the alleged shooter, David Hernandez Arroyo, and citizen Mark Wilson. Wilson is licensed to carry a concealed weapon and fired several shots at Arroyo. Arroyo, however, was wearing a bulletproof vest.

So an armed citizen tried to be heroic and ended up getting killed. I feel bad for him, but I'm not surprised. Gun fights are never as easy as they look on tv and in video games.

[biftonnorton]

69. That Guy Was Seriously Prepared

News story I read said he was wearing a flak jacket and a ballistic vest.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-town-square-shootings,0,6456474.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

Apparently, wearing ballistic vests is a trend in the criminal fashion world. This means that the cops and civilians who are permitted to stop a deadly threat in progress need to practice those difficult pelvis and head shots for those "failure to stop" situations.

Prayers for the officer, family and the family friend.

[NickB79]

82. Hmmm, if the trend is to wear Kevlar nowadays

Maybe the best CCW weapon is the old CZ52 pistol? It is chambered in 7.62 x 25 Tokarev, already a very fast round that some say can defeat Level I body armor, and you can get saboted subcaliber rounds for it that will easily punch through even Level III body armor.

http://owlnet.com/quality/223%20Timbs.htm

[rugger]

67. The problem is, not enough other people were packing

If everyone were carrying a weapon, this could have been prevented. Nothing like a nice old fashioned shootout to rein in the evildoers.

[biftonnorton]

70. If Only People Had Had Cellphones

this might have been prevented. Nothing like calling 911 to stop a homicidal maniac in his tracks.

At least some people showed some courage and tried to intervene. They were outgunned and at a tactical disadvantage and tried to stop the crazy SOB when everyone else tried desperately to dive for cover. God bless them. Maybe in this case we DID need more people trained to carry and trained to hit what they aim for, as well as having the backbone and compassion to try to stop a slaughter.

[Cooley Hurd]

68. Remember, guns don't kill people...

Guns readily available to nutjobs kill people...

[jody]

71. Shooter was not authorized to possess a firearm under federal law or

the local law enforcement system failed to do its job.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 922 Unlawful acts
QUOTE[br />(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—

(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
* * * * * * *
(9) who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence,

to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
UNQUOTE


GUNMAN KILLS 2, WOUNDS
4 IN SHOOTING ON SQUARE>
QUOTE
"He came here with one thing in mind," Swindle said. "He had the act set in his mind to murder his ex-wife. He has a history of assaulting his ex-wife and several weapons offenses."
UNQUOTE

[slackmaster]

76. Looks like he broke the law

We need another law to make it illegal for a person to break laws.

:dunce:

[Frangible]

75. CNN story update -- Sheriff credits Wilson

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/25/tx.town.square.shootings.ap/index.html

"One of the deputies at the scene said if it hadn't been for Mr. Wilson," said Sheriff J.B. Smith, "the son would be dead."

Regardless of what you think about concealed weapon permits-- that guy had a lot of courage and died to save others.

[ChickMagic]

79. We tend to call it the Baptodome

Here's my favorite sign in Arkansas:

[GetTheRightVote]

91. Probably a gun carring Republican, big cowboy like *

:kick: