Mormon scholar, 95, is accused of rape by daughter

[emad]

tIMES
From Chris Ayres in Los Angeles



THE daughter of a prominent Mormon scholar is to accuse her 95-year-old father of raping her as a child in a forthcoming memoir.

Martha Beck, a sociologist and therapist, will claim that she has “recovered” memories of ritual sexual abuse more than two decades ago by her father, Hugh Nibley, Professor emeritus of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University in Utah. Dr Nibley is considered the leading living authority on Mormon teaching.

“I didn’t write it to convince anyone not to be Mormon or not to join the Mormons,” Dr Beck said in an interview with The New York Times. “I just needed to get the story of my childhood out of my system.”

In the book, Dr Beck will say that she suffered pain and bleeding from the age of five.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-1499668,00.html

[Name removed]

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[hector459]

2. My God, they can have more than one wife. do they need children too?

I bet he is a super moralist too.

[Name removed]

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[Momgonepostal]

17. No "they" can't have more than one wife

And he was a Democrat.

[Name removed]

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[Momgonepostal]

64. I find that very offensive

A cult?? Did I make a wrong turn and find myself in FreeRepublic?

[Zhade]

69. I'm sorry you find it offensive. It's true.

But then, even Christianity may have been a mushroom cult at its inception.

I've nothing against Mormons that don't try to push conservative ideas as the law of the land. I happen to know from my research that Smith was proven a fraud even in his own day. He made it all up out of whole cloth.

I know that's not pleasant to hear. It wasn't when I learned it. But if you or anyone else wants to be Mormon, I respect your choice. There's absolutely no parallel requirement that I respect the religion itself, however.

We'll of course have to agree to disagree, as I won't change your mind (and really don't want to - if Mormonism helps you in your life, more power to you, seriously).

[achtung_circus]

4. Recovered memories

should not be accepted at face value without confirmation of some sort. It is far too easy for memories to be suggested.

Not to minimize the way this woman feels, but caution is indicated.

See, for example, here:
<http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/dissociative/a/dabaterec.htm>

[havocmom]

5. I knew someone who was a therapist. He insisted I had repressed memories

about being sexually abused as a child. He wanted to hypnotize me to "bring the memories forward". As I can recall stuff from when I was still in a crib, I told him I didn't think so! It really annoyed me that he would suggest it since I was not in seeing him as a therapist and he had a very limited knowledge of me and my life.

He is no longer in practice.

[noonwitch]

14. I agree that caution is required in cases like this

Certainly, people repress memories and eventually recover them. I am suspicious of them doing so in therapy-I think dreams and flashbacks triggered by a stimulus that reminds the person of the trauma are far more believeable scenarios for a recovered memory than a therapist talking a person into believing that he or she has repressed memories.

[Eloriel]

44. Confirmation?

You think there are bleepin' WITNESSES to child sexual abuse? Give me a break.

I'll tell you this: there is a whole movement grown up around trying to shame and humiliate and discredit and "reason" women (and some men) out of their recovered memories of child sexual abuse. ALmost any trauma victim -- anyone who's been in combat, for example, or suffered other significant trauma including just witnessing the trauma others have endured (e.g., witnessed traffic accidents or other difficult events), can attest to the fact that some things escape your memory, period. It's psychological self-defense. Sometimes those memories come back, sometimes they don't.

Even far less traumatic things can sometimes get "lost" from one's memory -- temporarily or permanently. I remember a situation in which an acquaintance said something to me that was so off-the-wall, so unexpected and so damned insulting, that it dashed right out of my consciousness almost as it happened. I KNOW I was pissed as all get out, but to this day I literally have NO recollection of what she actually said to me.

Because child sexual abuse is an epidemic (one on 4 women, one in 7 - 10 men were sexually abused as children), because repressed memories are real (despite these vile people who claim otherwise), posts like yours are NOT helpful. I don't think the problem of suggestibility is nearly as large as the problem of actual abuse that hasn't been addressed. Too, when someone recalls REAL memories, there is plenty of emotional content that gets recovered as well, most of it very specific and often surprising -- I am nearly certain that's not true of "suggested" memories. Victims CAN, however, be talked OUT of their actual memories, and that's as big a crime, IMO, as the original abuse.

[FourStarDemocrat]

6. Not surprising...

I have a good friend who grew up as a Mormon in Utah, and who was molested by her well-connected in-the-church uncle as a child. The senior councils, when it was reported to them did everything they could to protect him and humiliate her for reporting it. She eventually completely severed her ties to the church and is an ex-mormon now.

[0007]

7. How many untold stories are out there?

[all.of.me]

8. a zillion...

sexually and physically abused people are told to never tell anyone for fear of harsh consequences. they live with big secrets all their lives.

[rasputin1952]

9. I am not sure we really want an answer to that question....

The results could be disastrous...:(

While I am not a proponent of "bringing forth supressed memories", as much of the scientific/medical community considers the whole idea is bogus at this point; chld abuse is certainly not bogus, and must be confronted and dealt with in every case that does come forward.

The main question I have in this particular situation, is why did she wait so long?

[Tansy_Gold]

11. Freud

Please remember that Freud initially presented his information on women's "hysteria" as the result of childhood sexual abuse by their fathers, uncles, older brothers, etc., and was ridiculed by the white male Viennese medical establishment (many of whom were probably abusing the young women under their "protection"). Freud amended his theory so that it was all in the women's heads, they made it up, they were fantasizing about having sex with their fathers because they wanted to.

While not all "repressed memories" are factual, some are. We should not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

From a personal first-hand experience, I know that memories of abuse can be "repressed" simply because the victim doesn't recognize the abuse for what it is and remembers it as something else.

From personal second-hand experience, I know that traumatized victims sometimes simply shut down the memory process as a survival mechanism until they are old enough and psychologically strong enough to deal with it. This was the case of a friend of mine who endured ten years in an abusive marriage and only when she was able to extricate herself from that did she "remember" the abuse she had suffered from her father. The childhood abuse was eventually substantiated through medical records and other evidence, and finally by her father's admission.

Abusers often use threats of punishment and accusations of the victim's compliance and even that the victim initiated the contact.

Abuse is a very complex issue and I think personally that it's counterproductive to toss around broad theories that will cover or excuse every case just because the theory might fit one or two.

[davidinalameda]

10. I don't buy "recovered" memories

too much depends on the therapist who "recovered" them from the patient

if s/he has some sort of agenda, the patient gets sucked into it

[Name removed]

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[Momgonepostal]

15. I have to confess, I'm skeptical too

It may be true, but ehhh. I'd be more likely to believe it if she actually really remembered, ya know?

FYI, Hugh Nibley is one of the very few high profile Democrats in the LDS church. As a very low profile LDS Dem, I'm bummed that this might be true of one of my crew.

[NashVegas]

34. Recovered Memories

Do not depend on therapists or news headlines to pop back up out of the mental filing cabinet.

[Rockholm]

13. Great "Family Values" eh, Mitt Romney.

[Momgonepostal]

16. Interesting Timing- 2/25, Hugh Nibley dies at 94

LDS historian Nibley dies at 94

By Peggy Fletcher Stack
and Mark Eddington
The Salt Lake Tribune

Not many Mormon scholars could get away with lambasting the faithful for their excessive materialism, their fondness for the military and hunting, or their kitschy church art and still remain a favorite son. Fewer still could be a mentor to church defenders and LDS social critics at the same time.
And almost no other Mormon thinker could offer Homer's Odyssey as a bedtime story to his children, simultaneously translating the original Greek into English.
But that was Hugh Winder Nibley.
Nibley, credited with launching the scholarly examination of Mormon scriptures, died Thursday at his Provo home weeks before his 95th birthday...http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2584205

If my kid said that about me, it would about kill me off, too.

[Name removed]

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[Dookus]

19. While I certainly

have problems with some of the offshoot sects of Mormonism, I think this case is likely bullshit.

Recovered memories should never be believed on their surface. In fact, the idea of "repressed memories" is pretty suspect. Where there thousands of holocaust survivors who retained no memory of their ordeal? No. Many researchers doubt the phenonemon exists at all.

[Megahurtz]

20. Reseachers really don't know shit

about child sexual abuse.

[Dookus]

21. So any joe-schmoe

who wants to hang up a shingle and call himself a "therapist" knows more?

[Megahurtz]

23. Usually, it's not the therapist who discovers this,

it's the victim.

[Dookus]

24. well

I disagree.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rmt_over.htm

Current status of RMT:
Opinions of the validity of these "memories" vary:

Essentially all memory researchers, all of the major mental health therapists' associations, and most therapists now believe that the "memories" are images created during therapy which are generally unrelated to past events. They are often called "false memories." Recovered memory therapy is an effective way of transferring the general abuse beliefs of therapists into their clients' thought processes without either being aware of the process. The "memories" are as close to representing real events in the past as are nightmares.


http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/Cosmo.html
http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm

[Megahurtz]

31. Yeah, and Dr. Richard Gardner M.D.

coined his PAS "Parental Alienation Syndrom " too, (re: child sexual abuse) and used it in the courts, and this is not even a real "syndrom"

PAS does not exsist anywhere in the American Psychiatric Association book of Mental Disorders. The guy made it up for his own agenda. Anyone that knows this can use this information in court if this bogus "Parent Alienation Syndrom" is being used against them.

Dr. Richard Gardner M.D. had a whole bunch of followers like the people who wrote the links that you provided.

http://cincinnatipas.com/richardgardner-pas.html

There is an entire political arena on child sexual abuse. You should read "Rocking the Cradle of Sexual Politics" by Louise Armstrong (if you can stomache it) you might learn something.

By what I know and have learned about this issue (which is immense, by the way) I tend to believe that these repressed memories are true, way more often than not.

And seriously no offense to you or anything, but I don't trust the validity of a website that is titled "Religious Tolerance"

[Dookus]

33. The site didn't publish those articles

they link to articles by respected researchers like Elizabeth Loftus, a leader in this area.

[Megahurtz]

37. Well I don't know who Elizabeth Loftus is

But she obviously doesn't know shit. Is she experienced on the affects of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? I fucking doubt it.

So she is respected by whom?

[Dookus]

39. Perhaps you could look her up

before deciding she doesn't know shit.

Edit:

Here are some details about dr. Loftus

Distinguished Professor
Professor of Psychology & Social Behavior
Professor of Criminology, Law & Society
Professor of Cognitive Sciences
Fellow, Center for The Neurobiology of Learning & Memory
University of California, Irvine

B.A., with highest honors in Mathematics and Psychology, UCLA, 1966
M.A., Psychology, Stanford University, 1967
Ph.D., Psychology, Stanford University, 1970

You can find much more at http://www.seweb.uci.edu/faculty/loftus/vitairvinemark1204.doc

[Name removed]

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[Eloriel]

46. And I would trust any SINGLE woman or man who has

recovered memories before I'd trust a single thing -- word or thought or Lunch -- from Elizabeth Loftus. I read one of her books early on and was so disgusted, so completely disgusted, with her enabling of abusers with her "work" that she will forever have zero credibility with me.

I'm trying to remember the details from her own childhood which she and her sister were trying to "defend" as "normal" if not healthy, but which was CLEARLY oversexualization (i.e., one form of sexual abuse) by her own father. Sick, sick, sick.

Even sicker: Let's say she HAS a valid point, that so-called "false memories" can indeed be "suggested" and thereby implanted. The problem is, unless she believes that ALL recovered memories are false (something that the experience of an awful lot of normal people totally invalidates), then her False Memory Institute (or whatever) is a wonderful place for REAL perverts and abusers to find comfort and aid. There is no way to sort that out. As it was, a decade and a half ago or so when I was taking a good long look at all this, parents FLOCKED to Loftus and her associates, especially all those "falsely accused" fathers. Yeah, right. And what tools did she have, or even want to find, for sorting out who was and who wasn't falsely accused? NONE! Absolutely NONE.

[distantearlywarning]

49. I wouldn't. Human beings are notoriously flawed self-examiners.

If you want proof of that assertion, read the literature on social cognitive biases as they pertain to memory (and there's nothing in there that "enables abusers").

It sounds like you are letting your emotion trump your reason when you think about these issues. It also sounds like you've had a lot of therapy (perhaps too much).

[Megahurtz]

59. Dude, you seriously have to do some deeper investigation

on the child sexual abuse issue, psychological and political. You seem staunchly one sided.

A ton of University education, and no life experience, perhaps?:hi:

[distantearlywarning]

65. Your post implies that my viewpoint is the product of some

naive bias. In fact, it is based on extensive research in the field. I have no "real life" or personal reason to dislike repressed memory therapists. The simple truth is that their research is not sound. They profit from the gullibility of others (some of whom do actually have serious problems and need help), and justify that profit to uninformed people like yourself using their unsound research. As someone who cares about the welfare of other people (read: DEMOCRAT), this is unacceptable to me, so I try to pass along better information when I can.

Just for the record, I am in my 30s and spent 10 years of my life working in the real world with the mentally ill, including individuals suffering from PTSD, before I ever went back to school to receive a credential that accompanied that life experience.

Also, it is widely accepted that a common recourse of debaters who can't actually back up their claims with sound evidence is to attribute the oppositions viewpoint to personal factors (like naivete, for instance). I have, and I am sure others here have, been shut out of arguments with Republicans using the EXACT SAME argument you just made here - that our education is somehow representative of a lack of "real" understanding about the world and therefore disqualifies us from providing a valid opinion about anything. Just something for you to think about...

[Megahurtz]

70. I see,

you are questioning repressed memory therapists and not the victims. Maybe this is the basis for our communication breakdown.

The therapists are not the ones to claim that there are repressed memories beforehand (hopefully,if they are good therapists) but on the contrary, it's the victim that remembers during therapy. The victim has to acknowledge the repressed memories first.

I'm sure that you know that I good therapist will listen and guide a client, but ultimately it's the client/victim that comes to the conclusion of a repressed memory, not the therapist.

I'm sure that there are a lot of quack therapists out there, but I tend to think that the victim is usually correct as for as repressed memories.

[Megahurtz]

52. No, just experience

Pal.

A person can have all of the "credentials" in the world, and still not know shit.:dunce:

And if I were you I wouldn't make snap judgements when you have no fucking idea where I've been, what I know and who I've known etc.

And yes, I do know better. Little do you know.:7

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

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[KittyWampus]

26. Who Said Anything About "Any Joe-Schomoe Who Wants To Call

himself a "therapist"?

There may very well be some questionable practises going on where 'therapists' are coaxing bogus recovered memories.

But that doesn't mean that repressed memories don't exist and crop up later on in one way or other.

And this article doesn't go into enough depth and get enough info from all parties for anyone to draw definitive conclusions.

Your need to attack this, especially by using a straw man, reveals quite a bit about you.

[Dookus]

28. wow

two posts attempting to psychoanalyze me. Thanks, Joe Schmoe.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. Your defensiveness reveals quite a bit about you, too.

[distantearlywarning]

51. Yeah. It probably reveals that he is the kind of person

who thinks rationally about the things he is told by other people.

[KittyWampus]

25. Did You Know That Cambodian Women Went Blind From Witnessing

atrocities. There was nothing wrong with their physical eyes but they'd witnessed such horrors, they were literally blind.

"Many researchers doubt the phenonemon exists at all"?

Really?

Or are you cherrypicking out those who fit into your zeal for debunking stuff that subconsciously upsets you.

[Dookus]

27. LOL

subconsciously upsets me? Are you saying perhaps I'm a victim of childhood sexual abuse and I've repressed the memory? Lordy, I'd better go find a therapist quick to "bring out" those memories! Maybe then I can go back and destroy my family with outrageous, baseless accusations like so many others have done.

No, I've just read some of the research, and I provided some links above.

As to the cambodian woman, that has nothing to do with recovered or implanted memories. I never said trauma can't do strange things to people.

[Megahurtz]

35. Baseless???

Does your "research" provide proof that repressed memories are false? You say no one can prove that repressed memories are true, but no one can actually prove that repressed memories are false either:dunce: Hey!!!:think:

Read my post #31 response to you above.

And yes, you obviously don't know what trauma can do to people. I suggest you do some research on that.

If I were you, I wouldn't be jumping to so many baseless conclusions without getting all of the information (from reliable sources)

[Dookus]

40. I have provided

a few links backing up my assertion. You have done nothing but attack me.

Show me the overwhelming research backing up your position.

[KittyWampus]

47. No, I Am Saying You Have A Need To "Debunk" Things That Make

you uncomfortable for who knows what reasons.

And the instance of Cambodian women points out just what the mind can do when faced with trauma.

[Dookus]

60. again

your attempts at armchair psychology fall flat.

This topic doesn't make me uncomfortable. I "debunk" it because I've read a lot about it, and the research shows that memories are easily implanted, and much of the hysteria around this subject has been shown to be utter bunk.

I'm a skeptic. I get the magazines and read the websites. This is a common topic of discussion. My interest in debunking it isn't based in some repressed trauma, but rather a desire to see people think more critically about the things they automatically accept as true.

So-called recovered memories have devastated a LOT of innocent people. It's a topic worth debunking.

[fishwax]

32. Repression and ordinary forgetting

Victims of abuse may repress memories (most of the research I've read doesn't deny this possibility, though there is widespread dispute about how common it is) or they may also simply forget, as people forget tons of things that happen through the course of life, good, tragic, and indifferent.

Most research I've read casts serious doubts on the idea of "recovered memories" found through therapy. But there are also people who might remember repressed (or merely forgotten) memories on their own without therapy. When therapists are involved in "recovered memory," I think there is significant cause for skepticism, since research has shown just how powerful the power of suggestion can be in implanting all kinds of ideas about one's past.

[porkrind]

22. OMG! Kick for the fundies!

For those who don't know, Nibley is one of the biggest defenders of mormon ancient america historical claims that don't agree with, well, basically the rest of the world. He writes lots of long-winded scripture analysis works. I don't know it this claim of rape it true, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

[lapislzi]

30. Martha Beck is no lightweight

She's well respected in the therapeutic community, and she has several best selling books out there. She's also a columnist for O magazine. Although I do not know her personally, I would give her the benefit of the doubt. Having read her books, I don't imagine she would make such statements in an irresponsible or cavalier manner.

[distantearlywarning]

36. Recovered memory is a load of crap.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me at all to hear that a Morman patriarch was sexually abusing his daughters.

[Megahurtz]

38. "Recovered Memory is a load of crap"

That's your opinion, but how do you really know???
:think:

[distantearlywarning]

42. I am a research psychologist.

I've read the literature debunking it.

[Minstrel Boy]

43. For every expert,

there's an equal and opposite expert.

I've read the literature debunking the debunkers.

[Megahurtz]

58. So you're going to tell me that

you don't believe in any repressed memories at all??? If you are a research psychologist possibly you should do a little deeper research.

[Momgonepostal]

45. Except it's just one daughter who is claiming abuse AND

the other daughters (and sons) appear to think she's a nut.

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2555256

[Eloriel]

55. Which has absolutely no relevence at all

Many child molesters and pedophiles, for example, are fine, upstanding citizens in their communities.

Don't forget the Miss America from the 1950s who eventually also recovered her memories of a lifetime of sexual abuse at the hands of her fine, Mormon (I think) father who also was a pillar of society. I'm not remembering her name off-hand, but she came out in the 1980s I believe.

[Momgonepostal]

61. What you just said has no relevance to what I just said

I said nothing about him being a fine, upstanding member of the community.

My problem in this branch of the thread is the comment about him molesting his "daughterS." His daughters say nothing of the sort. Just the one...who the others think is off her rocker.

[last_texas_dem]

48. Man

Facts of this case notwithstanding- I don't claim to know enough about it to make much of an assessment one way or the other, I'm always shocked at the amount of vitriol some DUers will direct towards Mormons. You know, they aren't all perverted polygamists with underage wives... I'd think if these types of statements were made about most any other religion/Xian denomination (Baptist, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, etc.) this type of garbage wouldn't be tolerated.

[Momgonepostal]

50. THANK YOU!

[distantearlywarning]

53. You're right. I retract my statement about Mormon patriarchs.

I was stereotyping unfairly.

[Megahurtz]

56. Sorry, I was not saying that

ALL Mormons are perverted, I was saying that the polygamists are. I'm sorry but that is my opinion. Please do not twist around what I said to make it look like an attack on the Morman religion.

[Eloriel]

57. I'd have a lot more sympathy for your point of view

were it not for the fact that LDS is an overwhelmingly sexist faith. THAT fits very well with underage wives, polygamy and other forms of anti-woman perversion.

From Housewife to Heretic -- the title of a wonderful book by a Mormon woman who became a feminist and ended up having to leave the church she loved because of its misogynism. It's a wonderful book. Don't recall the author's name.

[last_texas_dem]

62. But then again

Some Fundamentalist version of Christianity and Islam take very sexist interpretations of their religions as well and put them into practice. I don't think this means that all practitioners of these faiths are sexist or, by extension, would take underage wives, etc. or other activities associated with such.

It's just, having been here a while, I've noticed that almost anytime discussions of religious groups such as Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses come up, a lot of people on here let the attacks fly. This has always bothered me because usually the attacks are based on stereotypes (often, but not always, incorrect ones) and many, who would have problems with most any other sort of stereotyping, give passes to these.

[Zhade]

67. I don't direct any ire at Mormons, just at their cult.

I'm an ex-Mormon, and that's largely because of the established fact that the church has allowed, if not outright endorsed, the use of electroshock and "porn therapy" in attempts to "cure" (in reality, intimidate, break down, and brainwash) members of GLBT orientation like myself.

Once I learned that, I began reading heavily and learned all about how Joseph Smith was known as a fraud in his own day, and how utterly ridiculous the "faith" is. I know some choose to be Mormon, and I don't attack them any more than I would attack a child for believing in Santa or an adult believing the Clippers will win the championship. But I'm not going to pretend the religion is anything more than something Joseph Smith cooked up to scam some folks.

[Mairead]

63. As Eloriel points out, the rate of abuse is beyond horrible

One in four girls suffers unwanted sexual attention from some power figure in childhood. So, even just statistically, there's a high likelihood that all claims are true.

But it's so easy to create false memories --it's not unlike how good fiction writers create the worlds they write about-- that any memories claimed to have been 'recovered' via therapy should ethically be treated as contaminated, possibly factitious, and definitely not admissable as proof of anything in a legal setting.

[Jamastiene]

66. Why am I not surprised

To paraphrase Jerry Falwell replacing the word "gay" with the word "religious" and vice versa:
This is clearly a religious problem. This is why we gay people want to stand up for children and keep these disgusting people who claim not to be perverts away from children...

[Moderator]

71. locking

No useful purpose is served by its continuance.