(Lindsey) Graham offers sobering assessment on Iraq

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050225/APN/502250825&cachetime=3&template=dateline

South Carolina U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham, back from a weeklong journey overseas, offered the sobering assessment Friday that American troops will be in Iraq for years and casualties are likely for some time to come.

Graham vowed to push to increase the size of the military, attracting recruits through bonuses and benefits. But, he said, there is no need for a draft.

He also said the United Nations and NATO should assume a larger role in Iraq.

"Saddam Hussein literally raped his country," the Republican lawmaker said. "Americans have to understand that, just as in Japan and Germany, it will take years to go from a dictatorship to a democratic government."

<snip>

"The Iraqi people are more empowered but the security situation is worse," he said. "We had a lot less freedom to move around. In many ways in terms of security it is not better off than all."

[punpirate]

1. Anything not to say...

... "permanent US bases in Iraq." The transparency of the `pugs is amazing.

[hector459]

45. Saddam raped Iraq? What about 12 years of sanctions and bombings?

We just never give up do we? Iraq looked pretty good to vistors 16 years ago.

[Wright Patman]

2. There is an alternate view

of history, which now actually has more credibility in my view in light of the lack of WMDs, that Saddam Hussein was not really the problem for Iraq, leaving the nebulous issues of "democracy" aside. I would say $300 billion and 1,500 dead just to be able to say the people of Iraq and Afghanistan voted is way too high a price, but that's just me.

Saddam Hussein's dictatorship produced, by Arab standards, a fairly progressive and modern country. In fact, up until the 1980s, it was almost too successful by the neoliberal standards of the IMF types because it didn't "privatize" much of anything and yet still delivered economically.

I guess it was a lot like Cuba with oil. You hear about how horrible things have been in Cuba since Fidel took over, but I know people who have been there and say his health care system, for instance, is in many ways better than our own.

Things began going south for Iraq when the war with Iran started. Even there, the alternate view is that Saddam Hussein was fighting that war on behalf of his fellow Sunni Arabs. much as the U.S. fights all its wars in the Middle East for the benefit of Israel to a large extent.

Then the Kuwait invasion occurred because the Kuwaitis were refusing to forgive the war debts that had built up against Iraq even though Iraq was fighting that war on behalf of the Kuwaitis and other Gulf Arabs. There was also the disputed oilfield that Kuwait was slant-drilling into.

As for the years from 1991 to 2005, I think the "rapist" of Iraq clearly has been the triumvirate composed of the U.S., UK and Israel. Most other countries in the world would have long since given the okay to lift the sanctions and the second war would never have happened.

[htuttle]

7. Well, Saddam was supported for all those years for a reason

Thinking back on when I opposed the Reagan administration's policy supporting Saddam Hussein during the 80's, I can't tell you how many times I heard him and his government referred to as 'a bulwark against militant Islam'.

That was the 'job' Reagan paid him to do, and he did it very well (as we can see now after he is gone).

[daleo]

25. There is a lot of truth in what you say.

It is fairly heretical these days, but it was the conventional wisdom not long ago.

[LynnTheDem]

3. NO, actually, NATO and UN do NOT have to assume a larger role; YOUR MESS

YOU clean it up. Everyone else is "IRRELEVANT", remember? Get your whopping HUGH "coalition" to contribute more.

NO actually, Hussein did not "rape his country"; American bombing and sanctions for 12 years, plus an illegal invasion & occupation and genociding of Fallujah (and currently Ramadi and Mosul) and dropping tons of bombs on the country for the past 2 years took care of that.

NO, Iraq has NOTHING WHATSOEVER in common with Japan & Germany circa WWII.

And YES, US troops will continue to kill & die in Iraq for many, many years, YES things are WORSE in Iraq.

And YES, you will need a draft.

[DS1]

4. literally raped his country?

What?...

Ahh forget it

:eyes:

[Syrinx]

6. that's a pet peeve of mine too n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

24. Oooh, and that mean ol' Hugo Chavez traffics in child sex-slaves

Do conservatives have freaky fear/hatred/curiosity of sex or WHAT?

The amount of mileage given to the term "Rape Rooms" before it came to light that we were into the forcible sex/humiliation business was amazing. Now, of course, those rooms aren't mentioned much. I wonder what Abu Gonzales has to say about this?

Reactionaries know they can send their base into frothing fury at the mere mention of sex, and they allege it at every turn. Chavez was tarred recently as plying the trade of sex slavery because of this, and they'll do it again.

Yeah, yeah, Saddam's a creep, but we supported him for years knowing full well who and what he was.

This is the classic Republican M.O.: vilify the obstruction (I'd call it an "enemy", but in reality, these are merely human traffic cones impeding the greedy exploitation of the monarchists) and whip up the fear and loathing necessary to destroy post haste. It's obvious, it's tiresome, and it works every time.

[VegasWolf]

5. If Sadam raped his country, what does Graham call what bust did to it?

[Itsthetruth]

8. Senators Kerry & Graham See Eye To Eye On Iraq?

It looks like Senators John Kerry and Lindsey Graham embrace the same plan to win the war against Iraq.

[The_Casual_Observer]

28. The difference is Saddam raped it, chimp/US continue to rape it

[Zerex71]

9. Funny how Saddam's "rape"

wasn't anywhere near as horrible as our "liberation" has. In fact, given the Repukes/neoconjobs' penchant for doublespeak and completely inverted meanings, according to them, things were fine under the old guy and under us they're horrid.

[shadowknows69]

44. Uh Senator?

Saddam didn't level Fallujah. We did. Those fresh graves filled with hundreds of civilians. Us. The daily death and choas in the streets? Liberation.

[leftchick]

10. Graham offers sobering assessment on Iraq

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050225/APN/502250825&cachetime=3&template=dateline


Graham visited Iraq with Democratic Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Russ Feingold of Wisconsin as well Republican Sens. Susan Collins of Maine and John McCain of Arizona.

<snip>

"Casualties in Iraq are very likely for Americans for a time to come," Graham warned. "I am hopeful this political process if we support it will pay dividends."

On Friday, the U.S. military death toll in Iraq reached at least 1,489, according to an Associated Press count since the war began in March, 2003.

Graham said Americans should not think that simply because Iraq has held elections, the troops will be coming home anytime soon.

"We're still in Germany and South Korea 50 years later," Graham said. "It took years after the fall of Tokyo and Berlin before a functioning democracy was up and running. I see no reason it will not take years in Afghanistan and Iraq."

... Think of being in Iraq for a "generation".. :(

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/outrage?bid=13&pid=2132

[applegrove]

11. They have to rebuild an army there. They have to. "You broke it - you

fix it".

[bemildred]

12. They can't. Name one thing they have "fixed". nt

[applegrove]

14. Exactly. That is why all Europe, Canada & UN are moving into Iraq

to fix the dam mess. To make sure a democracy takes hold which requires an army to keep 'MAYHAM' from erupting.

It is broken, broken, broken and the only thing that may beat back the insurgents is the UN and other nationalities with boots on the ground 'training the Iraq Army'. So it will not be an 'American' army.

Everyone is trying to help out because they do not want to see more people killed. UN and Europe hold their noses and fork over what they must. For the people in Iraq and to stop the insurgency. A strong army must be built. It will take years. It is the only hope for peace in the middle East otherwise the Islamist Fundamentalist get the upper hand (which they have never had in Iraq).

I cannot believe that Bush even said the words: "Europe has till June to negotiate with Iran". I cannot believe those words.

***holes!

[bemildred]

15. Europe, Canada & UN are moving into Iraq?

According to whom?
Other nations are leaving, not coming to help.

[applegrove]

17. Canadians are training Army Officers. The Australians are uping their

numbers. The UN passed a resolution after the fact (to give peace a go). The US is moving all other nationalities soldiers away from danger and into the military schools and such to try and stem the leaving tide.

Yes the French have agreed to help out. Everyone is holding their noses and trying to not let the Islamist Fundies have another source of Oil wealth to fund terrorism (or grow followers willing to blow themselves up). There is anti-western terrorism going on in Europe by Islamists. We all have no choice but to make Iraq a solid democracy incapable of being taken over. No choice at all.

[bemildred]

19. Mere tokenism, drops in the bucket, sops for Bush's ego.

There is no way in hell they are going to bail us out without
a firm exit date, not with money, not with manpower.

[applegrove]

22. It is going to be a long term thing. We in the West will be paying for

Bush's idiocy for a long time. But ten years is better than forever. Saudi's have firm control of Arabia, Iranians are not Islamists (they are not arab for the most part) & Iraq has to be kept democratic. Afghanistan was the only Islamist state and it didn't have any oil.

This is geopolitical breakfast cereal. Bush broke it and we all have to fix it. Or else the Islamist will get their hands on enough money to buy a :nuke:

[bemildred]

23. "Saudi's have firm control of Arabia"?

Bwaahaaahaaahaaa. Right.

We don't have ten years, and we cannot afford ten years.
If we don't leave, and soon, we will be kicked out.

[applegrove]

27. Now that Bush fell into bin Laden's trap and has created more

converts - we have to keep going. The neocons may have added this up beforehand. We are slaves to the mess their policies leave behind. Because we are good humans.

[bemildred]

30. I think you are wrong, Sir.

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are the one's you have to watch out for.
Their demographics and politics really do suck.

The rest of the Middle Eastern states would work out their problems
just fine if left alone to do so, and the longer we stay there the
harder we make that job for them, and the more likely we make it
that the two I mentioned explode.

[applegrove]

31. I hope you are right. But i want to see a trained army before the US

leaves Iraq. They cannot just cut and run. I mean perhaps you are listening to the lies someone told about the number of trained Iraqi soldiers recently. There is really only one battalion ready or something. The claim that any sort of independent army exists was patently false.

I would love it for the Iraqis to be 'free & clear' in a year. I would be so happy.

[bemildred]

32. You won't see that, and we will.

Iraq has a trained army, it's fighting us now.

[applegrove]

33. Ouch ! n/t

[bemildred]

34. It's very simple.

If you have a headache from pounding your head with a hammer,
the first thing to do is stop. This has been a debacle from
the beginning, and there is no reason whatsoever to think that
by some miracle it will get better if we just keep doing it
some more, we need to stop.

[applegrove]

35. That is why all the 'people other than Americans' are being brought in

Internationalizing it would take the wind out of the sails of insurgents. Who must be getting weapons from outside (unless the US Army is supplying them).

[bemildred]

36. You can say that all you want to, but it won't happen.

There is a difference between media hype and effective action.

[applegrove]

48. Every unit that can be trained makes long term peace possible. Of course

I come to that with a bias against Islamists. Probably because I am not a Sir. And I do not like fundamentalists who are tribal rather than devout.

[Demeter]

18. The Election?

All of them (snigger).

[bemildred]

20. True. They have a lot of experience there, to draw on. nt

[ConcernedCanuk]

13. How can they dare use this Japan and Germany comparison ??

.
.
.

Iraq wasn't at war with anyone!

NONE of the bordering countries, (their neighbours) participated in this invasion, eve Turkey would not even allow it's soil to be used to launch Murikkan troops . .

Kuwait is still a debate in my mind as to who really was at fault there, - some readings indicate that Iraq was justified in attacking Kuwait. And on the side, wasn't most of the damage in Kuwait done by Murikkans, but Iraq was made to pay for the repairs?

One of these days, some high powered US Administrators should sit back look at the globe, and say "what the F we doing all over the place when our own country is a mess? - even our neighbours (Canada and Mexico) don't like us no more!"

Ahh but it's not about being liked,

It's about power and $$

The "Murikkan Dream" prostituted.

(sigh)

[applegrove]

26. Well Saddam Hussein was a sociopath like Hittler who "broke down

the assumptions & the barriors" to those people's psychys. So it will take a generation until some semblance of normal comes back into those people's lives.

What they really mean is that now that Iraq has been destabilized by Bush - it cannot be left alone or it will be targeted for takeover by the Islamists who have only so far managed to capture Afghanistan (a poor oil-less nation). Iran is a theocracy but they are not Islamists because they are not Arab - and thus are isolated from the Arab world. As of yet - the Islamists have not gotten power in a huge oil producing nation. That is what they need (money). This will not be allowed to happen: just like Japanese or German continued imperialism was ended by a long term occupation. Only in this case the Iraqis have not done anything except SIT ON TOO MUCH OIL.

It is the goal of the Arab Islamists

1)to start religious revolution by their followers (that failed miserably over the last 20 years until they stopped blowing up their own people to try and gain followers, and started blowing up Americans) and take over all the secular Arab regimes

2) repeat the process until who can join all the Islamist states together into one big huge country from the Persian Gulf & Indian Ocean to the Mediterranean.

Muslim nations in Asia (Indonesia) are not into it so far as they are not Arabs. And until bin Laden targeted America - Islamists were not doing too well. Now they are doing okay with recruitment and radicalization. So all the World (not just USA) has to rebuild Iraq into a secular nation with a strong army so the Islamist outsider take over will not occur.

The imperial power is not within Iraq (as it was in Japan & Germany) but within the Arab world. That is what a long term occupation has to stop in Iraq.

[ConcernedCanuk]

38. It's none of the USA's business to be in Iraq

.
.
.

Let the East take care of the East

Feckadee, United States has enough problems at home

I will not believe for one second that the USA is remaining in Iraq for humanitarian reasons

USA Admin/Military have not indicated to me that REAL concern for the welfare of Humans is a priority

Just look at the way they treat their own Veterans fur chrissake

I could go on

but the list of abuses by the United States to the rest of the world is limitless

so I won't


(sigh)

[booksenkatz]

16. Ecce homo, ergo elk?

I don't get his logic.

Things are bad over there -- lots of casualties.
Therefore the answer is to send more soldiers over there to become casualties.

Yes. Yes, I see. That will solve everything. I see it now.
:crazy:

[daleo]

29. It is chimp logic.

You can see this reasoning at zoos too, although smart chimps eventually figure things out.

[stepnw1f]

39. Depopulate Iraq and America

in one fell swoop. Neo-Con logic. Sick, but hey, they are sick!

[AlCzervik]

21. how many contractors in iraq gave Graham campaign $$$

having a hard time beleiving he's saying this because he's sincere, what's his underlying motive? jesus i think i'm getting more cynical everyday.

[manic expression]

37. What crap

What about those sanctions that caused the deaths of 4,000 children a month and strangled Iraq (imposed by the US, if you were wondering)? What about the fact that the US was Saddam's biggest supporter up until 1991?

What about the fact that Iraqis were better off (water, electricity, schools, security, hospitals, no terrorist bombings, no Iraqis murdered by foreign troops, etc...) with an actual government in place than with an oppressive occupying force?

What about the fact that the US occupation is about as oppressive and disgusting as Saddam's regime (Abu Graib open under new management, former Mukhabarat intelligence agents hired by coalition, suppression of free speech via closing of newspapers and arresting of dissidents, people hauled away from their houses for very little or no reason at all and thrown in detention camps, houses and workplaces searched for no reason, the bombing of innocent people's homes and weddings and the like, cities demolished, etc...)?

What about the plethora of regimes around the world which the US actively supports and that are WORSE than Saddam's government(Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Israel, Egypt, etc...)?

And how, exactly, are Iraqis "empowered"??? Elections of powerless and meaningless bodies is not empowerment. The only way Iraqis are really empowered is their resistance and opposition to the US occupation.

In short, this is absolutely ridiculous.

[ConcernedCanuk]

41. Shush now! We don't want Murikkan voters actually using their brains

.
.
.

in politics!

Gotta save them brain cells for "Reality" shows on TV and them War Games on their 'puters!

Sadly though, the US will continue to invade and interfere with other countries, until the world gets fed up and unites - and destroys the USA

I don't see any other scenario playing out here

The USA being belligerently aggressive, until the world says enuf, and destroys it - even if just by economical means

I for one, would not be sad to see the USA "dethroned" from it's undeserved and abused seat of power

And I ain't alone - -

[lovuian]

40. Is Lyndsey on drugs??? Iraq is not Japan or Germany!!!!!!!

Its Iraq in the middle of the Worlds craziest people!!!

But I do like the idea of no draft thanks!!!

[napi21]

42. Very similar to assessment by Hillary the other day.

As much as I think Lindsey is an AH most of the time, I'm happy the Dems & the Pubs are all agreeing that there sure isn't any success over there. Bet shrub is pissed al all who really tell what they saw over there!

[teryang]

43. There is no comparison to Germany and Japan

The comparisons are ludicrous. This is the myth of foundation. One can destroy a society by violence and then found another.

This is an idea which is central to neo-con ideological contructs and is meaningless drivel.

The resistance is the foundation. There was no effective resistance in Germany or Japan. In any case, foundations usually fail. Those born in righteousness and a profound cause such as nationalism often persist against outside intervention.

Hey, I killed your mother, I killed your son, I killed your father, I killed your sister. What is worse, I did so without just cause and lied about it. Why can't you appreciate democracy that comes in the night like a sneak and murders your intelligentsia? Why don't you appreciate our attacks on your hospitals and the bombers that flatten your cities? Why do your quislings have to have their faces if the cause is so righteous?

[not fooled]

46. yeah, the crackpot neocons actually think...

...that the more chaos, the better. Their hallucination is that once the country has been completely destroyed, they can rebuild it to their liking. They have come right out and said so.

Wanna bet, you scummy kooks???? :crazy:

Looks as though the Iraqi resistance fighters have other ideas.

[peacetalksforall]

47. Betrayal. It is deathly folly to enter into a partnership with the Cabal.

Under Hussein, the people had the basics of life and they had millions and millions of books, documents, and artifacts of their and the world's heritige. Women and men were able to get an education. Now, Christians and Jews are forcing democracy, extracting the earth's resources, and attempting to rule the entire region.

Yes, things are going downhill to say nothing about the blood, missing souls, limbs, immune problems, and peace of mind.