Judge Orders Florida Woman's Feeding Tube Removed

[johnnie]

CLEARWATER, Fla. (Reuters) - A Florida judge on Friday cleared the way for the husband of a severely brain-damaged woman to remove her feeding tube next month over the objections of her parents.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20050225/ts_nm/rights_schiavo_dc

[jayfish]

1. Any Bets On How Long...

before a new stay is ordered?

Jay

[dorktv]

5. I bet you 500 neopoints from neopets.com

[janx]

29. This judge won't issue any more stays. I posted a link to the

court order. The Schindlers can appeal to higher courts, but this judge, after five years, is basically washing his hands of the case.

Link to court order:

http://www.tampabaylive.com/onair/misc/schiavo0225.pdf

[vi5]

2. I'm sure this is heartbreaking to her parents...

..but if something like that were to happen to me, I would trust my wife more to carry out my wishes than I would my parents.

Yes, I know there are many layers to this story, but the fact is that they were and are married so legally he should have the right to decide.

[JDPriestly]

6. If it were my daughter,

I'd want a say. I don't understand why the husband and the parents can't come to terms on this.

Do the parents and the husband have different views on the quality of her life? on whether she is really alive? Is the issue really money? Who's paying for the medical care? Why doesn't the husand divorce her? Why are the parents holding on to what is left of her life after so many years and with no hope of recovery? How long could she live in the state in which she is in? I've never understood this story.

[jayfish]

10. I Believe Her Husband,...

Michael, claims that they discussed this situation and that this is what "Terri" wanted. Michael is her Guardian so no terms are required.

Jay

[Zuni]

30. He never mentioned during the Malpractice Trial

he won $$$$ and then later said "Oh, Terri told me when she was watching TV that she wanted to die if she became a vegetable."

Something is fishy

[woodsprite]

60. I agree. Something stinks about this case...

He won the money for her care, spent it trying to have her care removed, and has a pregnant girlfriend. Yeah, I'd say something isn't quite right. She isn't in a vegetative state. She can breath on her own, she recognizes when people are around her, her organs function, etc. It amounts to a license to starve her to death. It's against the law to do that with animals and children, it should be against the law to do it with adults. He should have been made to spend the money on her care, not countering her parents in law suits and living it up with his girlfriend. If he wasn't going to use the money to care for her, he should have turned all the awarded money and her care over to her parents and severed ties. I'm sure there is a legal way it could have been done.
He has been trying to keep her parents from her -- I say he's afraid of something and it's not just that he wants to "honor her wishes".

[Zuni]

83. He apparently spent $400,000 on his laywer, george Felos

actually $397,000 of Terri's money was spent on a laywer trying to kill her!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

124. Actually, she died 15 years ago today

The rest has been man's intervention. She's dead, baby. D E A D.

[LisaL]

201. If she is dead, then Michael can not be married to her.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

259. Oh, honey,

I want you to hunt down the people who were in charge of your education, send me a list of their names and addresses, and I'll represent you for free, when we sue them for breach of contract.

(I honestly don't believe you'll get this, but I had to try.)

[moobu2]

289. LOL ....good one

[ace2u_in_MD]

406. Right back at ya...

"If she is dead, then Michael can not be married to her."

And her parents are no longer her parents...

[LisaL]

409. I don't believe she is dead.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Liberal Veteran]

415. Your belief doesn't supercede 5+ years of medical testimony....

While I suspect your heart is in the right place, the courts have been over this case completely on many, many occassions and each time come to the same conclusion. Terri Schiavo is in a persistant vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

The facts are pretty clear in this case:

Despite numerous attempts by the Schindlers to cast aspersions on the motives and character of Michael Schiavo, they have yet to convince a single court their accusations have any merit.

Despite numberous attempts by the Schindlers to convince the court there is some chance of Terri's recovery, they haven't succeeded once.

The Schindlers have had every opportunity in the world to make their case, not once, but on many occasions and still have yet to succeed.

It's time to put this case to rest.

Quite honestly, it is a foregone conclusion that after her body finally stops to function, the groups that have been behind the Schindlers will spend a couple of weeks wailing and talking to reporters about how it was a travesty and then they will find another family to descend upon and exploit for political purposes.

[LisaL]

437. I see you love cats. Did you know that Michael had

Terri's two cats euthanized? He is a great man, no doubt about it.
:eyes:

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

144. Nope.

December 1963� Terri's birth date

November 1984� Terri & Michael marry

February 1990� Terri suffers cardiac arrest and a severe loss of oxygen to her brain

May 1990� Terri leaves hospital and is brought to a rehabiliation center for aggressive therapy

July 1990� Terri is brought to the home where her husband and parents live; after a few weeks, she is brought back to the rehabilitation center

November 1990� Terri is taken to California for experimental therapies

January 1991� Terri is returned to Florida and placed at a rehabilitation center in Brandon

July 1991� Terri is transfered to a skilled nursing facility where she receives aggressive physical therapy and speech therapy

May 1992� Michael and the Schindlers stop living together

January 1993� Michael recovers $1 million settlement for medical malpractice claim involving Terri's care; jury had ruled in Michael's favor on allegations Terri's doctors failed to diagnose her bulimia, which led to her heart failure; case settled while on appeal

March 1994� Terri is transferred to a Largo nursing home

May 1998� Michael files petition for court to determine whether Terri's feeding tube should be removed; Michael takes position that Terri would chose to remove the tube; Terri's parents take position that Terri would chose not to remove the tube

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[LisaL]

196. Well, that's even better. He declared it 8 years later?

It never occurred to him during those 8 years Terri told him she wouldn't want to live that way?

[Dookus]

213. It sounds to me like

he made every attempt to provide for rehabilitation, but then it became clear it was fruitless. At that point, he accepted that she would never recover.

[janx]

215. Yep. n/t

[Lenore]

283. money awarded/DNR put in chart within the year

Thats the facts! He got the award and then 8 months later, shortly after receiving the verdict money, he began DENYING TREATMENT for an infection, specifically stating it was his desire for Terri to expire!

He and the family have been at it every since...

[janx]

292. Do you have any idea--look at the timeline again--how much

the intensive treatment he got for her over the years cost? He tried therapy and rehabilitation for years! During that time, she only worsened, and when it was discovered that her cortex was gone, what was he supposed to do?

He has been fighting so that her wishes are honored. He has been up against incredible odds--the religious right, the governor, the legislature, and people who believe everything they read on the internet. It's really time for this to stop.

[Lenore]

309. time-lines are interesting things...

How often and convenient that specific dates are selected and then tossed out as proof of something that they simply can't prove. In this case, your contention that Michael sought treatment for Terri 'for years' and 'over the years'

How about we examine a more extensive and revealing time-line and then talk about about the vast and extensive treatment Michael sought for Terri.

1990

Feb - Terri Collapses in her home

May - Terri discharged from Humana Hospital in St Petersburg, Florida.

Dec - Terri taken to California for experimental implant


1991

Feb - Terri moved to home with husband.

Jan - Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center.

Apr - Terri's condition is assessed as improving.

Apr - Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center to receive advanced therapy to continue Terri's recovery.

Jul - Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home.


1992

Aug - Terri awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement.

Nov - Terri awarded $1.4 million in malpractice trial.

Nov - Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial.


1993

Feb - Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment.

Feb - Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of therapy for Terri.

Feb - Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents.

Feb - Schiavo posts Do not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart.

Jun - Schiavo threatens Schindler family with lawsuit.

Aug - Schiavo orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.

Sep - Bob and Mary Schindler petition courts to remove Schiavo as Terri's guardian.

Nov - Schiavo admits in deposition that he knew withholding treatment of infection could result in Terri's death.


1994

Feb - Judge Penick dismisses guardianship suit.

Apr - Terri moved to Palm Gardens Nursing Home.


1995

Sep - Schiavo orders Palm Gardens not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.


1996

Jun - Terri's parents obtain court order for access to Terri's medical records.


1997

May - Judge Shames approves Schiavo action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

Jul - Schiavo's engagement to Jodi Centonze announced.

Aug - Attorney Felos's letter notifying Terri's parents of action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.


1998

Jun - Guardian ad Litem appointed by court to investigate Terri's case.

Oct - Schiavo offers to donate Terri's inheritance to charity if family agrees to allow removal of her hydration and nutrition.

Dec - Guardian ad Litem recommends the court not approve Schiavo's petition.


1999

Feb - Attorney George Felos files bias charges against Guardian ad Litem.

Jun - Guardian ad Litem dismissed by the court.


2000

Jan - Judge Greer Conducts Terri�s Feeding Tube Removal Trial.

Feb - Greer Rules to Remove Nutrition Feeding Tube.

Feb � Affidavits filed by 3 doctors state Terri can swallow and is not PVS.

Feb - Greer denies petition to allow Terri swallowing tests.

Apr - Terri Moved from Palm Gardens Nursing Home to Hospice Facility.

Apr - Greer denies motion to return Terri to Palm Garden Nursing home.

Apr - Greer imposes restricted visitor list for Terri.

Jul - Appeal filed with Appellate Court to overturn Greer�s verdict.

Nov - Appellate Court Conducts Oral Arguments.

[janx]

316. I am interested in facts, not innuendo and gossip.

You don't even produce a source. That tells me a lot.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

329. You live alone

with lots of cats who tell you secrets.

Right?

And you haven't seen daylight in six years.

Yeah, that would explain a lot of things about that post.

[mordarlar]

253. Don't forget the scans they did of her body that showed....

multiple bones that had been broken or fractured at different times PRIOR to her current state. He requested the money for her lifelong care. When they asked how long he believed that might be he said 50 or so yrs. He is VERY SUSPICIOUS.

Not to mention other people testified that she had SPECIFICALLY said that she did not believe in stopping life support. Yet they take Michael's questionable testimony. IMO if he harmed her he has NO RIGHT TO DICTATE HER CARE.

[Lenore]

284. There you go! Confusing people with facts! n/t

[Lindacooks]

295. IShe was anorexic; that would explain the broken or

fractured bones.

http://www.prevention.com/article/0,5778,s1-1-65-80-2276-1,00.html

http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Eating_Disorders/peacelovehope/medical.html

[Lenore]

311. Give me a break! She weighed almost 120lbs and stood at 5'3

To: National Desk

Contact: Pamela F. Hennessy for the Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation

Associated Press released a report penned by Vickie Chachere which cited an eating disorder as the cause of Terri Schiavo's mysterious collapse and ensuing brain injury on February 25, 1990.

Contrary to the account of writer Chachere, there was never a determination by any court nor the Florida Department of Health that Terri Schiavo ever suffered from any eating disorder, bulimia, anorexia or compulsive behavior that would lead to a heart failure at the age of 26.

Indeed, Florida's Department of Health had completely and absolutely cleared Terri's general practitioner of any negligence or wrong-doing in her case. This was after the physician had been accused by Terri's husband of ignoring evidence of an eating disorder.

Additionally, at the time of her mysterious medical episode, Terri Schiavo stood 5'3" and weighed somewhere between 115 and 118 pounds � a slim, but normal stature and weight.

Associated Press writer, Vickie Chachere cites not ONE medical document that would affirm her careless contention that Terri Schiavo was an irresponsible dieter or a compulsive victim of an eating disorder. The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation asks Ms. Chachere to readily produce the facts upon which she penned such assertions.

The parents and siblings have repeatedly offered to media and press a copy of a bone scan conducted on Terri Schiavo just one year after her incident that reveals multiple sites of trauma and broken bones throughout Terri's body. Neither the law enforcement agencies nor the media or press have made any effort to investigate why Terri Schiavo's body was seemingly broken by battery.

Instead, they perpetuate the unsubstantiated claims that Terri Schiavo suffered from an eating disorder that rendered her healthy, 26 year-old heart incapable of carrying on.

Statement of Robert Schindler, Terri's' Father: "This is a slanderous accusation against my daughter with no basis in fact. Certain members of the press are leading a personal crusade to kill Terri."

The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation is calling upon all of media and press to take up the task of investigating allegations of serious abuse against Terri Schiavo as are evidenced in the 1991 bone scan and well as ongoing violations against Terri under Florida's Guardianship Statutes.

[Lars39]

318. A court did rule on it;that's how he received the settlements.

[Lindacooks]

327. No, give ME a break.

Bulimics and anorexics aren't necessarily stick thin. What counts is if they are getting any nutrients. If they are vomiting up food, their body is slowly being starved, whether or not they're truly too thin.

Princess Diana was bulimic, and although she was thin, she didn't look like many pictures of bulimics:

[Name removed]

330. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mordarlar]

335. Is it necessary to insult someones intelligance...

simply because they might view things from a different perspective? I feel it is suspicious that her body was so broken. To NOT investigate this is irresponsible. Does this make me brainless as well?

Regardless of Terry's state, HER wishes must be respected. The people who claim what her wishes were differ. This is why the spouse, under most circumstances, has the last say. If her spouse was potentially abusive and possibly not looking out for her BEST INTERESTS than there is a problem. Scott Peterson would not be welcome to decide ANYTHING on his dead wife's behalf. Many say Terry is dead. Fine, but there are STILL questions as to how she became this way. And if it is at the hand of her spouse, then he should be considered a criminal and not a hero.

It is simple. They should determine whether she suffered at his hand and then either clear him to decide on her behalf or give this control to someone who truly IS LOOKING out for TERRY.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

349. There are no questions about what happened

There was no abuse by her husband.

Her wishes are being respected, but not by her parents and people like you.

She died 15 years ago, and it's only a matter of ending the forcefeeding of her corpse.

It was insulting your "intelligance." It was describing it. Thanks for affirming.

[janx]

353. I don't understand how/why a DCF attorney showed up at the

last hearing. I know that such agencies have to follow up on "anonymous tips" and that the Florida DCF does not have a stellar reputation of late...

[OldLeftieLawyer]

356. I think because it's the law

Every complaint has to be followed up. And in a case as ultra-high-profile as this one, you bet they're gonna send a lawyer to the hearing.

It's just grandstanding.

[mordarlar]

432. "intelligance" was a typing error. Not an intellectual one. Very mature

[ace2u_in_MD]

407. No one has PROVED that he harmed her in the past, what, 15 YEARS?

Sorry, that dog won't hunt.

[mordarlar]

410. I disagree people HAVE offered proof that he MAY HAVE harmed her

This proof should have been investigated.

[SW FL Dem]

414. The abuse claims HAVE been investigated

and disproved at least twice already.

[mordarlar]

417. The following post from me was directed to you....

I accidentally posted it to myself. Talking to myself again. LOL

I was wondering if you could provide a link regarding a conclusive investigation of Michael.

[mordarlar]

416. Could you provide a link to support this? I have seen no evidence of it.

I am not denying it exists. I just have not seen it. But if he was conclusively investigated i would withdraw my whole argument on this case.

[Lars39]

421. The cause of cardiac arrest was electrolyte imbalance

http://www.abstractappeal.com/
<snip>
First, "Terri's Law" required the chief judge of the local circuit court to appoint a guardian ad litem (GAL) to examine Terri's case and advise the Governor. The chief judge appointed Dr. Jay Wolfson from the University of South Florida. Dr. Wolfson's December 2003 report to Governor Bush included this bit of factual history:


The cause of the cardiac arrest was adduced to a dramatically reduced potassium level in Theresa's body. Sodium and potassium maintain a vital, chemical balance in the human body that helps define the electrolyte levels. The cause of the imbalance was not clearly identified, but may be linked, in theory, to her drinking 10-15 glasses of iced tea each day. While no formal proof emerged, the medical records note that the combination of aggressive weight loss, diet control and excessive hydration raised questions about Theresa from Bulimia, an eating disorder, more common among women than men, in which purging through vomiting, laxatives and other methods of diet control become obsessive<snip>

[mordarlar]

429. Two agencies did investigate. Below is a response from both.

The second one, listed in the report, was denied the right to examine Terry. They support the DFC's investigation.

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/local/10985987.htm

>>>Previous attempts to investigate allegations of abuse have yet to turn up any findings. In 2003, both Pinellas State Attorney Bernie McCabe and the Tallahassee-based Advocacy Center for Persons with Disabilities, the state-appointed organization which monitors the treatment of disabled adults in Florida, responded to reports that Terri Schiavo was abused.

McCabe's review of some medical records found no evidence of abuse and noted that even if it had, the statute of limitations had expired.

Richard LaBelle, a Dunedin attorney who works with the advocacy center, said the agency reviewed court files and other medical records that were readily available and presented them to a medical expert who said he needed to examine Terri Schiavo before deciding whether she had been mistreated.

LaBelle said the group needed Michael Schiavo's permission to examine his wife and didn't get it. LaBelle said he welcomed DCF's involvement in the case now.

"I think that as an advocate for persons with disabilities, I think any claims should be resolved before further action is taken," LaBelle said. "I think the line should be drawn in favor of pursuing a good faith investigation."<<<

[ace2u_in_MD]

441. No one has offered proof...

They have only offered claims.

Big difference...

[SW FL Dem]

287. This argument is getting tiresome. That issue was irrelevant in the

malpractice trial. It would have been against Terri's interest to have said it then.

[vi5]

11. This may be cold, but I don't think the parents get a say....

I love my parents dearly. I am very close to them. But due to many basic philosophical differences with them, I could just not trust them to follow through on my wishes on this issue which would be to let me go with dignity. I trust and know that my wife would. She would be my legal guardian in that instance.

I don't know that this is the case with the Schiavo's but I have to trust that if Terry didn't trust her husband that she would have made other arrangements legally in her will.

[Justyce]

25. I would much rather my

parents decide for me than my husband... I'd be afraid to doze off in the hospital for fear of him jumping up & shouting "unplug her! unplug her!" ;-)

[The_Counsel]

12. Why This Isn't So Simple

"I don't understand why the husband and the parents can't come to terms on this."

All things being equal, I wouldn't either.

Isn't there some sort of trust fund the husband would have control over that the parents don't want him to have? Also, where is the documented proof that Terry wants the tube removed? I think it would be a little easier to take if her parents knew for absolute sure that Terry wanted the plug pulled.

My take: let Michael pull the plug if he wants to, but the trust money should go the state. That way, there's no built-in incentive to try to "move on with your life..."

I know it's harsh, but what do you expect from someone as jaded as I...? :shrug:

[Zuni]

31. There is no plug---she is not on life support

she is alive and well, but severly brain damaged.

He wants them to stop feeding her so she will starve to death. It is appalling

[vi5]

37. It's not appalling if those were her wishes....

That is what I would wish in that situation. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. And in the absence of something saying that she DOESN'T feel that way and DIDN'T discuss it with her husband, everything else is legally conjecture.

[Zuni]

41. He says she told him she wants to die when they were watching TV

apparently, after he won a civil malpractice suit, he suddenly remembered that she wanted to die if she was ever brain damaged

[vi5]

50. Again...that is between him and her.....

I believe that a husband or wife's rights supercede a parents rights, if the person is married and over 18.

If someone disagrees with that, they have every opportunity to legally deny their spouse those rights and to grant their parents guardianship. Terry Schiavo did not do that.

If you are wealthy and are suspiscious of your spouse you can get a pre-nuptial agreement and/or contract that would leave your money or property to someone else. If you don't trust your spouse to carry out your wishes you can legally make someone else your guardian in the event of something like this happening.
In the absence of making such arrangements, the law is that the husband or wife has final say as guardian.

[SemperEadem]

394. interestingly

the bible supports your view--when one marries, one leaves one's parents and cleaves only unto their spouse--that means your parents cease having a legal say so in your life once you are married. It then shifts to the legal spouse.

We would have to put God on trial to get around this in law and in religion... and that's not about to happen soon.

[Lars39]

173. He was not the only person to testify to that.

[mordarlar]

256. The only other people who testified to her wishes ( to be removed) were...

members of her husband's family. And again they did not say a word until YEARS after she was in her current state. Friends of Terry testified that she was very specific that she did not believe in the removal of life support. Shortly after she fell into the current state her HUSBAND said he did not think it fair to Terry to remove her from a feeding tube. Years later his story changed.

[Lars39]

269. Not so.

From the District Court of Appeals, Second District, Jan. 24, 2001.

<snip>
Her statements to her friends and family about the dying process were few
and they were oral. Nevertheless, those statements, along with other evidence
about Theresa, gave the trial court a sufficient basis to make this decision for
her.<snip>

[Lenore]

297. Get the facts straight. A 'life' is in the balance

The only people that testified that Terri talked about not wanting to be on "life support* were Michael Shiavo, his brother Scott Schiavo and his sister-in-law Joan Schiavo. Tight little bunch wouldn't you say?

Whereas multiple parties, including those outside of the family, testified to the opposite. The family presented a close childhood friend who, under oath, described how upset Terri had been about the Karen Quinlan case and how that was being handled. Furthermore, there were multiple parties who testified that Terri had told them that Michael was becoming more controlling and mentally abusive and she was quite unhappy in her marriage.

Greer chose to believe the Husband who has a mistress and two out of wedlock children, the one who put a DNR in Terri's chart within months of getting her award money.

Greer is simply blind. Literally and figuratively!

[Lars39]

303. Oh, no tighter than the parents who wanted half his money.

<snip>The court has reviewed the testimony of Scott Schiavo and
Joan Schiavo and finds nothing contained therein to be unreliable.
The court notes that neither of these witnesses appeared to have
shaded his or her testimony or even attempt to exclude unfavorable
comments or points regarding those discussions.<snip>

the money:
<snip>...it is clear to this court that such severence was
predicated by money and the fact that Mr. Schiavo was unwilling to
equally divide his loss of consortium award with
Mr. and Mrs. Schindler.<snip>

definition of consortium:

2. right to marital company and affection:
the right of husbands or wives to the company, affection, and help of their spouses ( archaic )

[Name removed]

315. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

321. That was a reckless post.

You give yourself away.

[Lars39]

323. Yes, the money is gone. Probably even Terri's settlement.

Her medical care is very expensive.
Her share would have only been about $75,000/year. That comes to about $6500/month.

He could have spent his consortium any way he wanted, it was his.

Her parents are delusional and money grubbing.

[mordarlar]

337. Her parents offered to allow Michael to KEEP any remaining money...

in return for the right to her care. He refused.

[Lars39]

338. Terri had money settled on her for her care.

I don't see how it would be legal for that to happen.
He refused because he is still trying to honor Terri's wishes.

[mordarlar]

340. There are reasons to be suspicious of Michael. If she had died that night.

he would be in SEVERE trouble with the evidence as it is. He may in fact be innocent. But this cannot be assumed. She had damage. He has LIED repeatedly about the events of that night. Her position and physical traits that night were consistent with a strangulation. If this is NOT WHAT happened than it should be pr oven before the POTENTIAL victimizer is allowed to decide the fate of his POTENTIAL victim.

[AZCat]

351. God forbid...

...that we follow the principle of "innocent until proven guilty."

In your post, you state "He may in fact be innocent. But this cannot be assumed."


My mind is reeling from your perversion of both the facts and our system of justice.

[mordarlar]

397. There's PROOF of potential GUILT now the burden falls to clear this...

or prosecute it. Are you suggesting because of innocence until proven guilty that NO ONE should be subject to trial?

Everyone who steps foot into a criminal trial is INNOCENT. Then guilt is either proven or disproven. This is UNBELIEVABLY not being done with Michael. And yet there is as much proof SUGGESTING the need to investigate as MANY cases where a trial has proven guilt.

[ace2u_in_MD]

396. Uh, it cannot be assumed...

"He may in fact be innocent. But this cannot be assumed."

He is PRESUMED innocent until PROVEN guilty in a cout of law...

[mordarlar]

398. At what point does one become subject to a criminal trial?

Obviously GUILT cannot BE PROVEN until AFTER a TRIAL. Yet for some reason, some people are actually TAKEN TO COURT. This happens because there is convincing evidence that a trial TO PROVE or DISPROVE GUILT IS WARRANTED. This is the case with Michael. And yet it has not been done. WHY?

[ace2u_in_MD]

403. You said that his innocence cannot be assumed...

I pointed out that he is PRESUMED innocent until PROVEN guilty. What part are you having problem comprehending?

[mordarlar]

405. I explained the phrase. Innocent until PROVEN guilty...

assures no PROSECUTION will be administered without PROOF of guilt. I did not suggest he should BE PROSECUTED. I said innocence warranting no investigation cannot be assumed. Investigation and trial are based on the possibility of wrong doing. Does it mean the person HAS DONE WRONG and should be prosecuted? No. That is the purpose of the investigation and trial.

[ace2u_in_MD]

412. And, in 15 YEARS, no one has offered enough proof...

of your allegations to charge the husband. Desperate people do desperate things...

[LisaL]

443. I don't think so. Some of the money was awarded on her care.

He spend it on lawyers who argued her feeding tube should be removed. The court has allowed him to do it, but the money was awarded by jury on her care, I believe.

[Name removed]

331. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

341. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

350. Deleted message

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[mordarlar]

336. Can you please provide a link?

[LisaL]

205. Yep. He didn't remember it when during trial he said

he is going to become a nurse so he can take care of her.
He forgot that little tid bit of information when he was trying to get some $$$$$ from his wife's tragedy.

[Dookus]

299. and he did become a nurse

and he did care for her.

And the money is all spent on her care and on legal fees due to her family's insistence on court-shopping.

[LisaL]

445. He had said he will take care of her for the rest of his life.

Well, sorry, he isn't doing it, is he? He wants her feeding tube removed. Not once did he mentioned that she wouldn't live that way during the trial. He was saying back then how much he loves her and how he will care for her for the rest of his life.
He never said that if she doesn't recover, her feeding tube will be removed because that is what she wanted.

[peacebird]

110. quality of life matters

being a vegetable is no quality of life.

let the poor woman go, she has suffered enough.

[Lenore]

300. Terri feels pain whereas true "vegetables" don't n/t

[Name removed]

332. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

359. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The_Counsel]

115. I Know That...

"Pulling the plug" is a figure of speech. At least, that's how I meant it...

...but if Mrs. Schiavo is unable to feed herself, and she needs this food to stay alive, isn't the feeding tube then a form of "life support?" I'm just sayin'.

I guess there's a lot of questions to ask here: How come Mrs. Schiavo only made it known to MR. SCHIAVO what her wishes are/were? Why not tell SEVERAL people in case she and her husband were to die together? And what, exactly, would her parents prove by keeping her alive in her current state? Are the odds of her making a full recovery REALLY that good?

My brother-in-law is a doctor of internal medicine, he's noted that families tend to hold on way longer than they should -- even when there's little-to-no hope for recovery. What it does is make the loss that much more painful, as well as more expensive than it should be. I think BOTH sides are in dire need of some soul-searching here...

[OldLeftieLawyer]

127. Why don't people have an executed Health Care Power Of Attorney?

I've given away the forms, with instructions, to dozens of DU people when we've been discussing this topic.

PM me, give me your email address, and I'll send you the forms, too.

Everyone should have one. This case is a classic example of why.

[The_Counsel]

151. I Agree Wholeheartedly.

You're absolutely right. People should do more to cover their ass, and the collective ass of the loved ones they leave behind.

But hell... it's hard enough getting people to buy LIFE INSURANCE, let alone draw up a will or HCPoA. I've told as many family members as possible/necessary what I want done in case I'm rendered a vegetable (please excuse the crude term) and how I want to be put away when I die.

Thanks for the offer, but I (and mine) are covered. Keep sending those HCPoAs out to anyone who needs 'em...

[pop goes the weasel]

220. life support

I just had a conversation this week with someone who uses a feeding tube for "life support." Lots of people use feeding tubes. I also know plenty of people who can only eat pureed food. Frankly, I think I rather have the feeding tube than pureed birthday cake, but that's just me. So, really, a feeding tube is no big deal.

[FlaGranny]

355. I think it is appalling

to have been on a feeding tube for 15 years without conscious thought. Why in the world would anyone want a loved one to be maintained like that? It reminds me of the Night of the Living Dead.

It is ghoulish. It is extremely intensive to keep someone like that alive. They are prone to severe systemic infections from the feeding tube. She has already outlived many who were on feeding tubes. These people always die. Why would anyone want to continue even a few more days of zombi-ism.

I personally don't care what the husband's motives are, or the parents either. It is just pain horrible for a human being to live in such a condition. Period. If anyone ever does that to me I promise to "come back" and haunt them for the rest of their lives.

[vi5]

35. I think there is a certain level of default to this stuff......

....in the absence of alternate arrangements made by the person in question, legally the right is her husbands. If there were any questions or issues about his ability to do what it was that she wanted done, then it HAS to default to him.

That the "sanctity of marriage" crowd is fighting against the husband's right is rich in irony.*


*For the record I know that wasn't the point or angle you were arguing from. I'm just saying.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

126. Guess what? There's no money

It's all gone, spent in her care.

Trust fund? Ha. What trust money? You're making things up and acting as if they're facts.

Guess who pays for Mrs. Schiavo's care and upkeep? Medicaid. She's destitute.

I wonder why it's so hard for people to understand that love means doing what your loved one trusted you to do.

[The_Counsel]

141. Guess What? There WAS Money...

...you said it yourself: it was spent in her care. Not hard to believe since she's been in this condition for FIFTEEN YEARS.

"Trust fund? Ha. What trust money? You're making things up and acting as if they're facts."

So it wasn't a trust fund per se. It WAS a settlement of over $1 million dollars awarded to Terri that Michael stood to inherit upon her death.

That's a matter of public record. I don't think I'm making it up. Therefore, I can "act" as if it's fact because you know what? IT IS!


"Guess who pays for Mrs. Schiavo's care and upkeep? Medicaid. She's destitute."

...and you know this HOW, exactly? Looks like one of is actually IS making stuff up, but it ain't me.


"I wonder why it's so hard for people to understand that love means doing what your loved one trusted you to do."

You got me.

That's what I and many others have been saying: If Michael can PROVE that she asked him to do this, the argument goes away. Period. Absent of that, and knowing he could have inherited seven figures, and that he's essentially moved on without her (had children with another woman) anyway, I guess you can see why all the concern.

So again, the solution is simple: let Michael do what he wants, but whatever money/property he figures to inherit from Terri goes to the state. After all, he'll have another woman to marry and gain an inheritance from...

[OldLeftieLawyer]

152. "was" ain't "is"

You're talking nonsense.

There's no money.

[Lars39]

162. Michael was not the only one testifying that she said

that she would not want to live that way.
There was a one million dollar settlement in 1993,
with approximately $750,000 going to Terri and
$300,000 going to Michael.
There's probably not any of Terri's money left.
Her care has probably easily come to more than
$6,250 per month,or $75,000/year for the last ten yrs.
Lawyer fees have probably eaten up much of Michael's money.

[cornermouse]

192. She's been in the nursing home for what? 15 years?

Nursing homes are very expensive. So are hospital stays, which given her condition, likely occurred more than once over the last 15 years.

[LisaL]

365. So what? Now it's about money? We don't want to spend money

on sick and disabled, but it's fine when we spend billions on war in Iraq?

[SW FL Dem]

290. The Florida Taxpayers are paying for her care

If the Schindlers and the religious right care so much for Terri, why are they asking for donations for her legal expenses but NOT for her medical care. Terri is a pawn in this process and that is the saddest part of the entire situation.

[puddycat]

418. if she were my daughter, I'd want her to be mercifully allowed to die

her parents are twisted--to want to keep their vegetable daugher alive is beyond comprehension.

People have a right to die. And this woman is being tortured by her own parents!!!!! I think her parents are some of the most disgusting vile people on this Earth.

Every time I read about this case I am infuriated with her parents

[Walt Starr]

9. My wife have a further agreement

First, if either of us are in this condition, the plug, tube, or whatever is pulled.

Second, the surviving spouse moves on with their life.

Michael Shiavo is following what my wife and I have agreed upon.

[Zuni]

33. But Terri is not on life support

What michael wants to do is have her starved by cutting off her food supplies.

[Walt Starr]

91. A feeding tube IS life support

:eyes:

[Old and In the Way]

100. What kind of quality of life does this woman have?

"food supplies" is a tube with minerals and vitamins to maintain her "not dead" existance.

This reminds me of the book, "Johnny Got His Gun". Only, in his case, he had a functioning brain.

To me, this is cruel and inhumane punishment. 15 years in a bed with no interaction with her environment? You call that living?

This isn't what's best for the poor women, this is about people who are too selfish to let go.

My spouse and I have an agreement not to let each other suffer like this.

[LisaL]

184. She wouldn't have to be bed ridden if her husband left her alone.

She could have been receiving much better care if it wasn't for him.
As for no interaction with her environment, lets say she is in PVS. So, basically she has about as much interaction with her environment as perhaps a tree. Does a tree suffer? Should we cut all trees down now? Who exactly is suffering here? Is it Terri or is it her husband who wants to move on and marry the mother of his 2 kids?
:eyes:

[Dookus]

223. Really?

You believe if here husband weren't in the picture, she'd be up and walking around?

That's pretty amazing.

[Old and In the Way]

241. It's almost too funny.....

is it any wonder why this country is totally screwed up?

Yeah, I'm sure she'll be dancing a jig next week if only her husband would let her get out of bed.

And this poster is making :eyes: at me?

[LisaL]

275. No, I don't believe she would be up and walking about.

But there is no reason she couldn't be taken out in the wheelchair, except she is not allowed to leave her room.

[Old and In the Way]

326. You could put her in an airplane or take her for a boat ride, too.

You could even take her to Disneyland.

But she'd still be braindead.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

128. Doesn't the irony just slay you?

I mean, she's in this state because of her eating disorder, and now the fight is about forcefeeding her body.

That's irony, for sure.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

132. Starved?

She's not eating, she's being kept alive.

There's a huge difference.

Terri's ability to eat ended the day her brain quit functioning. The feeding tube is no different than a respirator.

Try feeding her like she's alive and see what happens.

[LisaL]

180. The feeding tube is no different than a respirator?

How do you people even come up with these things? Numerous people are on feeding tubes because something had happen to them so they can not swallow.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

181. And that's why it's called

"life support."

It supports life.

So? What's your point now?

[Liberal Veteran]

It's still life support.

There is inherently no difference from a person being placed on a respirator because they can no longer breathe normally and a person who is on a feeding tube because that person cannot feed himself normally.

You can argue until you are blue in the face, but medical science and law considers feeding tubes to be life support.

[Nikia]

364. Then isn't someone bringing an immobile patient food also?

A bed ridden patient is unable to prepare or even retrieve for him or herself normally. Is that life support? If the care giver stopped doing this and the patient died, wouldn't this be considered neglect? A person needing a feeding tube is disabled. Eating normally is thier disability. Terri, of course, has more disabilities, but we should be careful how we define these things.

[Liberal Veteran]

424. In some ways it is, but probably not legally.

If we want to get down to brass tacks, I suppose you could say hooking up an IV bag or stopping bleeding would be "life support" as well.

But that is not the legal definition of "life support".

Respirators and feeding tubes are.

[leftynyc]

58. Both of you need to put it in writing. Even the hospital

can take the issue to court otherwise.

[Walt Starr]

94. My wife is an attorney

We have the wishes thing in writing.

[Horse with no Name]

97. Did you also know

that the hospital and/or court do not have to uphold it even if you have a living will?
99.9999999% of the time they do--but we were told in a medical ethics class that it isn't 100% binding.
Scary huh?

[HockeyMom]

157. Living Will AND Power of Attorney

Mom had both. Even though some of the staff wanted to "try more" to keep her alive, I had that docoment of Power of Attorney and told them NO.

[Nikia]

366. Do hospital forms mean anything?

A couple of times, when I went to the hospital, I was asked to sign and check various boxes asking if I wanted to be recisitated and be put on life support if I should suddenly have problems. Is this common practice? Does it really mean anything? If I checked no and my heart flat lined, would they really not do CPR. When I woke up from one of the procedures, I had an oxygen tube in my nose. Would I have died if I had checked no?

[shawcomm]

40. You admit their are extenuating circumstances, yet dismiss

them because he is "married." He has obvious conflicts of interest as guardian, one of the biggest being his life with another woman including children. To me, that negates his "devotion" to her and their marriage. His only devotion to their marriage is his intent to have her killed.

Do the disabled have rights, or does their disability refer the status of 'non-human' upon them. One can go to jail for starving puppies. Why should that be allowed to be done to humans? We surely would not allow it to be a form of execution for capital murder. Hell, we give them a last supper.

[Zuni]

52. damn right

a hanging is more humane than what they want to do with this poor girl

[OldLeftieLawyer]

134. Try both, and then get back to us.

Please. Your comparison is absurd.

Her brain is liquid. There is NO function. She's dead. They're forcefeeding a corpse.

You wouldn't do that to your pet.

[Castilleja]

334. I have been reading about this for awhile now, and

it seems that many people are absolutely refusing to take any notice of the fact that most of her brain is no longer there. It is danced around alot, but so many just want to discuss the husband's motives that they refuse to acknowledge that she is not just disabled, but the part of her that makes her "her", is gone. I think that fact pretty much trumps any other facts that can be dug up here. She is apparently no longer there.

[Pithlet]

74. He's married. Not "married".

He doesn't have obvious conflicts of interest. That is all based on speculation.

My husband is my husband. Not my "husband". There aren't varying levels of marriage.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

174. The problem seems to be

that the arguments you use are all right-wing talking points that have been discredited.

[AZCat]

176. If only...

discreditation was enough to prevent their re-emergence...
<sigh>

It's a Sisyphean task, Dookus.

[janx]

195. Ya think?

;-)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

130. Untrue

That's not true, and shame on you for making things up.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

123. Amen.

It's really that simple, isn't it?

[Lenore]

228. trust the spouse more, eh??

Even if that spouse won a large settlement for Terri's care so that he could care for her the rest of his life?

Yet NEVER mentioned that Terri wanted to die...

Only to make death wish claim, supported only by him and *his* family, shortly after the money was awarded.

Shortly thereafter Michael began to withhold therapy and depriving Terri of stimulation, visitors, music, tv, flowers and even cards from the family stripped from her life.

And then there is the OTHER Mrs. Schiavo.. that wannabe wife who is really just a mistress, waiting waiting for the time when her name can change from Centozone to Schiavo and her children to be legitimate.

Which is what Michael wants also. Just like he wanted Terri to die LONG before it got to this point, like shortly after the money first arrived. Surprise surprise! The parents say "no go" and the fight is on!

What oh what could be this man Michaels motivation?

Oh no it couldn't have been the money in the beginning, he just loved his wife! So much that he fought so hard for her...to get the settlement! Since then he has only fought to end her life. So he can take another wife. The one who is waiting waiting for the time when her children's parents are finally married, waiting for a time SHE is Mrs. Schiavo rather than the despised mistress!

Why wouldn't Michael simply walk away, now that this has dragged on so long that there is little money left (it went to FELOS, the attorney, not Terri's care like Michael swore he intended to use it for)?

I am sure he has spent many a night in a fretful state, considering the day Terri might manage to croak out 'Michael did it'....

On that note I will close my thoughts out by noting that...

1)No one really knows WHAT caused Terri's collapse. It was never investigated or treated like anything other than a pure accident.

2)Terri expressed herself after the incident, saying momma, hi, pain, no and stop among other things. This is on record, filed under the penalty of perjury, and has been testified to by multiple sources who worked with Terri and have absolutely nothing to gain by stepping up and getting involved with this case. Heidi Law, Carla Sauer Iyer, Carolyn Johnson.. all nurses who have testified as to Terri's true condition, how she talked, reacted to people she knew or didn't know, and even how Terri WAS able to eat and WAS able to swallow and how very much she enjoyed bites of jello.

3)For years Michael not only a)hoarded the medical settlement fund b)denied Terri care and 3) isolated from her family, he also denied that same family access to Terri's medical files. And when they were finally able to access the files, imagine their surprise when they discovered a full bone scan that had been done in the year after Terri's incident, 1991, a scan that showed trauma throughout the poor womans body. Indeed, the scan showed trauma to her ribs, knees, ankles and most importantly it showed clearly that Terri had suffered very traumatic injury, such as the kind one gets from a bad car accident or.. maybe just getting the crap kicked out of them. WHY was Terri given this bone scan? BECAUSE SHE WAS EXPRESSING PAIN when her therapist were working with her!

An even better question is: Since Terri was never in a bad car wreck, how oh HOW did she get all of these injuries? And why oh WHY did Michael fight for 10 years to keep this report from Terri's family? Hint: Terri was admitted to the hospital with a "rigid neck" such as the kind seen in strangulation cases...

4) Michael has already asked for, and Greer ordered, that Terri will be cremated upon her death. Why the rush to destroy the evidence? Inquiring minds want to know.

But why stop there? Some of us would like to know why he melted down Terri's wedding ring and made himself a piece of jewelry shortly after Terri's collapse.

And promptly put her beloved cats to sleep despite the parents request to care for them.

Ya.. this is one piece of work, this Michael "I am a devoted loving husband" Schiavo. He is so loving and devoted he has spent the last years knocking up his mistress, denying Terri even the most basic care. Ya he loved her so much he refused to let her teeth be brushed and for so many years she had to have four extracted just last year.

Why extract rotten teeth from a vegetable?? HINT: She was in pain so they had to do something. If someone can feel and express pain so much that it makes those caring for her feel bad (ya, that's in the record too) with her moaning and crying, then the person is NOT a vegetable. Severely disabled yes, vegetable no!

So, what are we really advocating here folks? Starving severely handicapped people or not??

[Dookus]

235. I read all those same exact points

on FreeRepublic. It seems the information you're getting is a little one-sided.

[Lenore]

265. why was she given a bone scan in 1991?

She was already DEAD, GONE, a VEGETABLE, remember?? So why give her a bone scan....

I know! She wasn't so dead after all and in fact would say "pain" "stop" and "don't" when her therapists would work with her...so a bone scan was ordered to see exactly why Terri was having such discomfort???

Come on people! This information is part of the public record, in the forms of court affidavits and medical records in addition to voluminous amounts of testimony by people intimately involved in Terri's care.

Unless of course we are simply talking about euthanizing severely disabled people. If that is the case then let's be right up front about it! Maybe then some of us could get past the fact that Terri is not dead and then begin to have a discussion about what quality of life is worth living and exactly how disabled is too disabled and should be let go and put out of their suffering.

[Dookus]

278. Did you read the timeline?

In 1991, people still thought there was hope for her. It has since been determined that her cerebral cortex is gone - there is no recovery.

And part of the public record and court affadavits is the fact that Michael Schiavo has been in the right every step of the way, and the courts have backed him up. There are no credible allegations of abuse committed by him. It is only the whacked-out right wing who keeps bringing up these discredited accusations.

[Lenore]

319. She got the bone scan because she was HURTING and SAYING so n/t

[Dookus]

322. Not exactly

but I can understand why you believe that, considering the sources you must read on this case.

[janx]

313. The amount of speculation and gossip in your post leads

me to believe that you have not put a great deal of critical thought into this situation. You have raised just about every one of the right-wing talking points distributed of late.

Good luck around here. Your post is disgusting.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

333. Boy, if I had bothered to read your screed past line two,

I suspect I'd be advocating starving you.

[ace2u_in_MD]

404. Where does a child stop being the property of a parent?

"he also denied that same family access to Terri's medical files."

After age of majority, no one has a right to view another's medical records. Under law, a spouse trumps a parent. Any other position invites parents intervention into marriages...

[johnnie]

3. Then again

Fla. Woman's Feeding Tube to Stay in Place

TAMPA, Fla. - A judge on Friday extended for three weeks a court order keeping Terri Schiavo's feeding tube in place, the latest development in a long-running family feud over the fate of the brain-damaged woman.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050225/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman

[papau]

8. just a change in headline - same Court order - tube out 3/18 n/t

n/t

[johnnie]

13. Oh..OK Thanks. n/t

[ClintonTyree]

4. Remove it NEXT MONTH..............

oh, great. Now we'll have another solid month of this story everyday and that will give Jeb and the neo-nuts plenty of time to plan endless stays for the future. She'll die of old age before this crap is finished. And every week we'll have updates until she does.
Maybe seems a little cruel, but I am SO SICK of hearing about this case all of the time. It has ceased to be news, it's a fucking circus.

[janx]

61. It is a circus, but it's an important case because of the possible

ramifications.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

137. No, actually, it has no significance

It really has become a circus because of the rightwingnut groups who got the parents' ears.

In fact, the Karen Ann Quinlan case was the groundbreaker, and nothing much has changed since then, except for the proliferation of Health Care Powers of Attorney and the vastly expanded awareness that we all need to make sure our final wishes are known if we're incapacitated.

[janx]

159. But what if the wingnuts had gotten their way?

Wouldn't there be a chance that others in a similar situation might be affected?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

169. I don't deal in hypotheticals.

Sorry, and I don't mean to be rude, but it's a big, fat waste of time in my line of work to second-guess history.

We're always gonna have the rightwingnuts on our asses, and we're always gonna have to struggle while we try to do the right thing.

[janx]

175. That's not rude. I understand.

And the last part of your post is the most important.

I'm ready! ;-)

[oddmanout]

7. My heart goes out to all parties involved in this

My sympathy goes out to everyone involved in this situation. I cannot begin to comprehend the deep despair that I am sure all of the people directly involved are feeling right now. I only hope that she can find peace.


:cry:

[Divine Discontent]

14. three week stay in life support case (terry schiavo)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7031915/


This is good! (imo) I know that's not popular with some on here, and I respect that opinion. I just believe that seeing the videos of her with her family, and the love they have for her, is paramount to this, she doesn't appear like she's hating being alive. I know it'd be hard to be kept alive like that, but it's a very strange case, with family going against husband. I think it's up to those who gave birth to her and seem to bring her daily joy, and her the same... flame away!

[Dookus]

15. it's disgusting

Michael Schiavo has won every step of the way. The fanatics trying to keep her body alive just go from court to court to court - it's an abuse of the system.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

22. i don't want to kill her

she's already dead in all meaningful respects.

The fact is, her legal husband is the one who is empowered to make this decision, and he has made it. I think it's outrageous for the courts to get involved.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AZCat]

120. The court has addressed Terri's condition multiple times

She is in a persistent vegitative state, and the evidence is conclusive in that regard.

[Renew Deal]

148. I can only trust the court in this.

I can't imagine so many courts are corrupt. This has come up 100 different ways with the same decision.

[Dookus]

167. It only

matters if your daughter is in a persistent vegetative state. Is she? No? They why bring it up?

The issue, clearly, is not that Terri Schiavo can't feed herself. Nobody ever said that was the issue. The issue is that her cerebral cortex is gone, and her husband, who has the legal and moral obligation to make these decisions, has made his. The courts have backed him every step of the way.

Yes, he is involved with another woman. That occurred years after Terri "died".

He also will not inherit a million dollars - that money is long-spent on Terri's care, AND lawyer fees due to the family's insistence on pursuing a losing course for the advancement of a radical right-wing agenda.

Odd, how every point you made is wrong, and each one is consistently used by right-wing nutcases.

[conseco]

18. What if there was abuse?

It seems to me the "husband" is trying very hard to get rid of this woman when all he would have to do is divorce her.

[Oreo]

32. I don't think it really works that way

He obviously doesn't want to see her suffer any more.
He could have divorced her years ago if he just wanted her out of his life.

[Zuni]

36. He pretty much is already married to another woman and has kids w/ her

He never visits terri and rarely shows up in court.

I think he is vile. I don't see why he cannot go off with his new family and let terri's family keep her alive.

[Oreo]

45. I didn't know that

I had never heard that he already and had kids by another woman.
So people thik he's doing this so he can re-marry? Why wouldn't he have gotten a divorce if that's the case?

Thanks

[Zuni]

47. Yep. 2 kids.

He is living with another woman and has 2 kids with her.

[Pithlet]

87. And that matters how?

How does that matter in this case? Because you judge that isn't right, he should lose his legal rights?

I would want my husband to move on after my death, even if my body hadn't realized I was dead yet. If other family members and the media were blocking his attempts to follow my wishes, I wouldn't expect him to forgo all happiness in his fight for me.

Honestly, there is a LOT of judging going on in this thread. Judgments based on speculation. You don't even know these people, do you?

[AZCat]

89. Too many people...

have one of these



at their disposal, IMHO.

[peacebird]

113. exactly true - I would hope my husband would be happy

and find love again.

i love the way you put it "I would want my husband to move on after my death, even if my body hadn't realized I was dead yet."

Perfectly put.

[LisaL]

190. How does that matter? Are you serious?

He has a conflict of interest. He likely wants to marry his girlfriend, but for that, he needs to become an widower first.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

140. 15 years

Get this straight - there's no gain for Mr. Schiavo in any of this - no monetary gain, nothing. He's simply acting out of love for his wife, defending her against the ugly people who have taken up her cause and used her parents as their puppets.

In fifteen years, he's dared to live a life. I wonder if you'd have just sat beside your spouse's bed until the end of time if you were in his shoes?

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AZCat]

133. What a beautiful "Catch-22" you've constructed

The only way Schiavo will earn your trust (enabling him to carry out Terri's wishes) is if he gives up the ability to carry out Terri's wishes.

:eyes:

[Nikia]

367. The other woman wants a Catholic wedding

If he gets divorced, then they can't get married that way right away if at all.

[ace2u_in_MD]

411. Citation please...

"The other woman wants a Catholic wedding"

Back up this statement of fact...

[janx]

98. Allegations of abuse were dismissed by the courts a long

time ago.

[LisaL]

198. Not because it didn't happen, but because it can not be proven.

Her x-rays show fractions on her body.

[AZCat]

202. Well maybe she had an overdose...

of basic mathematics.

It's been known to cause mental anguish, but this is the first case where I've heard of "fractions" leaving physical scars.

[Dookus]

214. LOL

I was just about to write a similar smartassed response, but then saw yours. Very good.

[AZCat]

219. Some things...

you just can't let slide by - opportunities like that only come along once in a while.

:)

[janx]

233. I've been laughing for ten minutes!!! n/t

[LisaL]

268. I would like to see you writing not in your native language-

and not making any mistakes. Really. I think I am doing pretty darn good for someone who had to learn English as an adult.
:spank:

[AZCat]

270. Sorry

But as I said above, some things cannot be passed up.

I gave in to temptation, and it was sweet! :evilgrin:

[LisaL]

277. Terribly sorry. Since I learned English as an adult, I use a wrong

word now and then.
I am sure you would be doing so much better if you moved to another country and had to learn a new language as an adult.
:eyes:

[Lars39]

226. How do you know her dad wasn't beating the shyte out of her?

The court ruled that past trauma had no bearing on her present condition(2002)

[Liberal Veteran]

237. What kind of "fractions"?

Proper or improper fractions?

[Corgigal]

17. I also think its good

because her "husband" needs to divorce this woman and marry his new lady. I think law enforcement is looking into how she became brain damaged to begin with.

[moobu2]

23. They've dont that repeatedly.

Terri Schiavo was bulimic and thats what caused her medial condition.

""Schiavo's downfall: An eating disorder

VICKIE CHACHERE

Associated Press


TAMPA - Before she was the severely brain-damaged patient at the center of a legal dispute over whether she should live or die, Terri Schiavo was a young woman who desperately wanted to be thin.

At 26, she was strikingly beautiful with delicate features. But she had spent her childhood and high school years as a chubby and shy girl, standing just 5-foot-3 and weighing 200 pounds at her heaviest.

When she finally lost 65 pounds in her late teens, men started to pay attention - including the man who would become her husband, Michael Schiavo, who was tall and handsome.

But keeping the weight off was a struggle for Terri Schiavo, and years later - after her heart stopped briefly, cutting off oxygen to the brain - a malpractice case brought against a doctor on her behalf would reveal she had been trying to survive on liquids and was making herself throw up after meals. The Schiavos' lawyer said her 1990 collapse was caused by a potassium imbalance brought on by an eating disorder.""

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/local/10985986.htm

[Corgigal]

26. from that article

whether Schiavo really was bulimic is in dispute. Her father, Robert Schindler, said he does not believe his daughter had an eating disorder and thinks her husband had something to do with her collapse. Michael Schiavo has denied hurting his wife.


I think the Hillsborough Sheriffs office is looking into it.

[msanthrope]

56. You are incorrect--she was bulimic, and her father, if

he believed that his daughter was not bulimic, should have testified in court to that effect.

He didn't, when Michael sued the doctors to get the damage awards--the doctors were found liable for not diagnosing her bulimia.

So if she didn't have bulimia, why didn't her father say something then?

[Corgigal]

73. Im not incorrect

I just posted what the article said.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

143. There's always a basis for eating disorders,

and more often than not, it begins with sexual abuse.

You wonder why the father kept quiet?

I don't wonder at all. His behavior since then has been consistent with a controlling personality.

[LisaL]

191. Her father can't know for sure if she had bulimia. Nobody knows

for sure, I presume. Patients with bulimia don't exactly declare it to the world, they vomit in private.
Her father suspects the husband because X-rays discovered some fractions on Terri.

[ace2u_in_MD]

422. And, who would be in a better position to know? Her husband or her father

Again, her husband whould know better. And until it is PROVEN otherwise, there is nothing to question her husbands accounts.

[Lars39]

423. The cause of cardiac arrest was electrolyte imbalance

http://www.abstractappeal.com /

<snip>
First, "Terri's Law" required the chief judge of the local circuit court to appoint a guardian ad litem (GAL) to examine Terri's case and advise the Governor. The chief judge appointed Dr. Jay Wolfson from the University of South Florida. Dr. Wolfson's December 2003 report to Governor Bush included this bit of factual history:


The cause of the cardiac arrest was adduced to a dramatically reduced potassium level in Theresa's body. Sodium and potassium maintain a vital, chemical balance in the human body that helps define the electrolyte levels. The cause of the imbalance was not clearly identified, but may be linked, in theory, to her drinking 10-15 glasses of iced tea each day. While no formal proof emerged, the medical records note that the combination of aggressive weight loss, diet control and excessive hydration raised questions about Theresa from Bulimia, an eating disorder, more common among women than men, in which purging through vomiting, laxatives and other methods of diet control become obsessive<snip>

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

153. Here:

But isn't there a bone scan that shows Terri was beaten?

I honestly don't know. What I understand is that a bone scan was taken in 1991 and that the doctor who read it saw on it evidence of past trauma at various places on Terri's body. Some consider that evidence of a severe beating by her husband, others consider it evidence consistent with bulimia, a fall, and CPR by paramedics. Whether trauma really happened, or what kind, or when, are all unclear.

The bone scan was not raised in the original trial regarding Terri's wishes. The issue was raised by the Schindlers in a November 2002 emergency motion. Judge Greer rejected the matter as being irrelevant to the issue of Terri's wishes. See the order linked in the timeline above.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html#qanda

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AZCat]

170. APFN?

Please find a more credible link.

Any site that claims discovery of "free energy" is whacko.

[Lars39]

166. Why do you presume Michael did that?

It could have very well been her father beating the shit out of her when she was younger.
The court ruled that possible past trauma had nothing to do with Terri in 2002.

[moobu2]

19. Revolting! This republican judge and Jeb Bush should be prosecuted.

[janx]

20. This isn't a stay. It's a court order. You can read it here:

http://www.tampabaylive.com/onair/misc/schiavo0225.pdf

[Zuni]

21. I am happy they aren't murdering her

I think what Michael Schiavo is doing is reprehensible. I am shocked the ACLU is supporting his attempt to make an invalid starve to death.

Imagine her family would have to watch her starve.

Taking away her sustenance is barbaric.

[ldf]

108. why don't you do a little homework and read

the countless threads on this subject, right here on du.

for example, THE DOCTORS say she is brain dead.

if she is brain dead she has no ability to "try to communicate", as you continually imply.

just because you want it, doesn't make it so.

she had been like this for 14 years. read what THE DOCTORS say about her chances of returning beyond a vegetative state.

geez.

lets say that when you die of a terrible accident, causing your brain to be blown from your body, you can be kept alive.

do you really want to go down THIS slippery slope? and who is going to make the decision, someone you have given your life to, or someone who just doesn't want to let you go?

the parents should be prosecuted for their own abuse of terri.

and also, since we are throwing out all sorts of gossip and innuendo, aren't the parent's being completely supported by the rightwing fanatics who are pushing this purely for political purposes?

they would surely hate to lose their meal ticket, don't you think?

[phylny]

155. Actually, removing nutrition is not a barbaric way to die.

Do a little research. She has little to no cerebral cortex left.

If she is as religious as her parents say, I would imagine they would rejoice that she has faith to say she'll die and be united with her Maker, happy and whole in heaven.

[moobu2]

34. In light of all the lies being spread by right to life liars, read this

Terri Schiavo had an eating disorder, that's what caused her medical condition

"Schiavo's downfall: An eating disorder

VICKIE CHACHERE

Associated Press


TAMPA - Before she was the severely brain-damaged patient at the center of a legal dispute over whether she should live or die, Terri Schiavo was a young woman who desperately wanted to be thin.

At 26, she was strikingly beautiful with delicate features. But she had spent her childhood and high school years as a chubby and shy girl, standing just 5-foot-3 and weighing 200 pounds at her heaviest.

When she finally lost 65 pounds in her late teens, men started to pay attention - including the man who would become her husband, Michael Schiavo, who was tall and handsome.

But keeping the weight off was a struggle for Terri Schiavo, and years later - after her heart stopped briefly, cutting off oxygen to the brain - a malpractice case brought against a doctor on her behalf would reveal she had been trying to survive on liquids and was making herself throw up after meals. The Schiavos' lawyer said her 1990 collapse was caused by a potassium imbalance brought on by an eating disorder.

It is a cruel twist lost on no one close to the case: A woman who is said to have struggled with an eating disorder is now in the middle of a court battle over whether her feeding tube should be removed so that she can starve to death.

Gary Fox, a lawyer who represented Terri and Michael Schiavo in the malpractice case, said the disease is the "lost lesson" in the Schiavo case."

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/local/10985986.htm

[phylny]

105. No flame, but with little to no cerebral cortex,

there is no "joy."

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

27. It was not a stay. It was a court order. You can read it here:

http://www.tampabaylive.com/onair/misc/schiavo0225.pdf

[moobu2]

39. Thank you for all the information....CNN said it was a stay.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

264. A stay is a court order

Any order that comes from the court is a court order.

No big deal.

[janx]

288. Oy! I did not know that, and thanks for the information.

I do know that he ordered the tube removed on the 18th and that he won't order any more stays.

[tishaLA]

28. How revolting of the judges

that they won't let Mrs. Schaivo's immediate family--her husband--make the determination about her medical care. Those fundies like Randall Terry behind her parents have spent tons of money on this case and they are getting every dollar's worth of publicity to futher their radical "pro-life" agenda.

[Zuni]

38. What is radical about preventing an invalid from being starved?

She is not on life support. She is a woman with severe brain damge. Her family wants her alive. She can communicate on a primitive level. She is essentially a badly brain damaged person.

What gives her husband or the courts the right to starve this woman to death?

her husband has a girlfriend and kids with her---why can;t he let go and go off her with his new family?

[Dookus]

46. a feeding tube IS life support

What gives her husband the right? The law.

[Zuni]

49. If she was in a coma and on life support

for example, machines that breathe for her or keep her heart pumping, then it would be different.

My father had to pull the plug on his mother when she went into a coma and the doctor said she was dying---I have had to take pets to get put down to end their suffering

I would not have starved my grandmother, not my cat if they were awake and attempting to communicate.

[Dookus]

53. I wish the law

allowed a way to euthanise her. But it doesn't.

However, dying of starvation and dehydration (the likely cause of death) will not cause her pain. She won't feel it.

[Zuni]

55. I do not believe that

I have seen enough footage of her responding to outside stimuli, and heard from MDs on the news that she most likely would suffer. Imagine her parents having to watch her waste away.

[woodsprite]

72. They wouldn't be allowed to be present. n/t

[Old and In the Way]

111. A morphine drip would take care of that concern and hasten the end.

When my mom was dying, a morphine drip made her comfortable in er last hours.

But I doubt she's suffering....her brain is wasted. Her reactions are primitive brain functions. She's dead, her body's alive.

[Liberal Veteran]

114. The strange thing is most hospice workers have seen this...

...sort of thing before where a patient will stop taking fluids and food in order to hasten their death.

It is not uncommon in those kinds of facilities and for the most part, they go fairly peacefully in an average of 15 without undue suffering, and these are people who are alert and in control of their mental faculties.

By all accounts the extreme suffering everyone is talking about doesn't happen in those circumstances.

I think a lot of the suffering talk is projection.

[phylny]

156. Do research on what it means to have little to no cerebral

cortex. I mean, really begin to understand what the brain is and what it does, and what happens to people who don't have the brain matter they need to.

[shawcomm]

59. We have all manner of laws, that doesn't make them all right.

The government has decided it can monitor your library book usage, you should be fine with that I assume? Before you say it infringes upon your rights, try to remember that Terri is an individual with rights too. Her constitutional rights should preclude any marital 'rights' an adulterous husband has.

[janx]

158. Schiavo has been fighting for her rights for many years.

We should all be so lucky as to have friends like him. He knows that this is not about him, about his parents, or about the religious right groups funding them. He knows it's about Terri and what she wanted.

[LisaL]

444. No doubt, he is a wonderful husband.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:
Did you read his testimony during the civil trail? He said he wanted to take care of Terri for the rest of HIS life. He never mentioned Terri didn't want to live "that way".

[vi5]

48. Then by that token what is to prevent me from having my wishes..

...carried out should I find myself in this situation?

If any of us would NOT want this to happen to us (being allowed to die if we don't want to go on in that state) then we have every opportunity to create a living will to insure that it doesn't happen. We have every opportunity to make sure that our spouses know our wishes before hand. We all are aware of the legal rights that a husband or wife has that parents do not once their child is of age. If we would not want to go on in that state I believe we have every right and opportunity to do so.

[Divine Discontent]

42. consider this...

"The Schindlers have countered with other medical opinions that she might improve with rehabilitation. The 41-year-old woman appears to cry, laugh and react to her family."


I understand your argument, immediate family (her husband) should outrule her immediate family (by blood) and allow her to die if he says she wanted to die if like this... well, that to me isn't a strong enough basis of proof from him, considering I've seen video that shows she gets happy when the Mom & Dad visit. The husband just can't handle his wife being a retarded citizen, and wants to end what he sees as, her pain. Tough call, but the fam should win out, imho.

[Zuni]

51. that is exactly my position

I feel her family has a better case and I support them, even if they are being funded by some serious RWers

[Dookus]

54. she is not retarded

she has lost her cerebral cortex - it's turned to jelly.

The tapes of her reacting are highly edited. They float a balloon by her 100 times and once her eyes move along, so they use that.

Her husband has the legal right to make these decisions, and that's as it should be.

[Zuni]

57. How do you know what else is on the tapes?

The fact that she responds and reacts at all shows that she has something going on.

Her brother, her parents, observers, doctors and others have all said that she responds to them.

[AZCat]

69. Responding/reacting is no indicator of life

Remember that tissue will respond to certain stimuli (electric shocks, for example) long after it is dead. This case isn't much different - the body retains the ability to respond to stimulus but it isn't an example of "thinking".

[Zuni]

71. but laughing and attempting to speak?

what do you think, that they hooked her up to a car battery to get her to laugh, attempt to talk and follow the balloon with her eyes?

[AZCat]

75. I asked my dad about that

He's a doctor and has had a number of terminal or brain-damaged/dead patients. I asked him about Terri Schiavo's case, and he was blunt - she is brain-dead.

Any reactions to stimuli are merely that - reactions. It is, of course, more complex than touching a couple of leads to a frog's leg, but the result is the same.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

164. You don't have to be a doctor to figure out what a person

with no cerebral cortex might be like.

[Lars39]

171. Sorry, that's wrong.

There was also a court-appointed independent doctor.
The court has ruled that she is in a persistent vegetative state,
with her cerebral cortex having been replaced by spinal fluid.
Any pre-med student that's had an anatomy/physiology course
would know what that means.

[janx]

177. Many doctors examined Ms. Schiavo.

A couple hired by her parents (one of whom is on QUACK watch), one appointed by the court, and one chosen by M. Schiavo and lawyer.

All but the quack had the same opinion: PVS, with no hope of recovery because the cerebral cortex was gone.

Even the quack acknowledged PVS, but being the quack that he was, he proposed some kind of miracle cure that was totally unsubstantiated by modern medical science.

[LisaL]

179. Is that some sort of a joke? Did your father review her medical

history before declaring her brain-dead?
:eyes:

[AZCat]

182. Is he not allowed to have an opinion? n/t

[LisaL]

187. Well, anybody is allowed to have an opinion.

My opinion is that Terri is not brain dead.
How about that?

[AZCat]

189. You are certainly entitled to believe that

But in this case I'm going to go with my father (whose opinion I respect very much) and the doctors that testified in the trial.

[janx]

85. She does not follow the balloon with her eyes.

For pete's sake!

She has reflexive brain activity because she still has a brain stem. She has no conscious brain activity because she has no cerebral cortex.

[tishaLA]

92. Please refrain from interfering with the mythology!

It is not halpful to Randall Terry and his wingnut compatriots!

[janx]

99. It drives me nuts!

;-) How many times can we hear these wingnut dreams, over and over and over...!?

[msanthrope]

70. No-- you are wrong. She does not "respond and react".

The court has repeatedly viewed the hours and hours of tapes her family has provided..

Why don't you read the court's actual opinion of the tapes at the website below? The court viewed hours of tapes, and found that Terri did not make consistent reponse, if any response at all.


http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[shawcomm]

67. So her husband owns a piece of meat.

I guess if you're able to view a human being as a non-person, that sort of thinking fits. I can't do it.

[janx]

80. He does not own her,

and he seems well aware of that fact.

[Dookus]

103. Nope

you're wrong. i never said that. Not sure why you put it in quotes - did somebody say those words?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

146. Fifteen years

In fifteen years - 15 years - she's improved?

Please.

Let the poor woman's body go. The person she was left fifteen years ago.

[Liberal Veteran]

185. Actually, from what I have read, things have gotten worse...

...and her brain has actually deteriorated in that time. As sad as it is, cerebral spinal fluid is not a substitute for brain tissue.

[ace2u_in_MD]

420. Are you talking about the edited video...

Created by Randell Terry?

You REALLY believe the video is impartial, objective evidence of anything????

[Locut0s]

43. As outside observers we don't have enough info to say if this is good or..

not. This kind of decision is among the most personal anyone can make. Without having known here personally for a long time there is just no way for us to know who is in the right and who is not. Unfortunately that has never stopped the media from demonizing one side or the other. Parents though they mean well don't always have the best interest of their children in mind, and certainly often don't want to accept their children's views on many issues. But then again the same can be said about spouses. The husband's claim that she had an oral agreement with him that she didn't want to live this way is not enough. However the parent's claims that their daughter really just needs time to heal seems way to optimistic too. This is why this kind of thing should ALWAYS be in writing. As I've said in another post on this topic I think the method of "letting her go", that is removing her feeding tube, is very cruel and from that point of view I understand it when people say she should be kept alive. However I am definitely not on the side of those arguing from a semi religious, "life is so precious it is preferable to suffering" point of view. Personally if I were in such a situation I would want someone to give me an overdose of pain killers, or even shoot me in the head, anything but a slow death by starvation.

[Pithlet]

81. The oral claim IS enough.

Courts grant decisions based on that between husband and wife all the time. Of course, it is best to get it in writing, to avoid the whole mess the Schiavos and Schindlers are going through. But, a husband has the right to say "Enough is enough. My wife didn't want to live like this".

I completely agree with you on your statement about outside observers. A lot of people in this thread are making judgments about Michael Schiavo based solely on speculation from interested parties filtered through the media. I can't believe that these same people would feel comfortable with outsiders doing the same thing to them if THEY were ever in that position.

[Zuni]

88. But that usually applies to life support cases in a coma

when a person cannot live without life support keeping them breathing and their heart beating.
Terri's organs function and all she has is a feeding tube.

I have never heard of anyone pulling the plug when there is no plug to pull.

[Pithlet]

90. You are wrong.

She is in a persistant vegetative state. That means that life support means can be pulled, if that is the next of kin's decision. Including feeding tubes.

[janx]

95. Terri would be better off if she were only in a coma.

A person in a coma has a cerebral cortex and can sometimes wake up. Terri has no cerebral cortex, so she has no chance of getting better.

In any case, a feeding tube is considered life support by Florida law. It certainly is in Terri's case.

[Locut0s]

93. Sure but unless you have a witness how do you know...

If there ever was such an oral agreement?

[Pithlet]

96. It's called a marriage license.

They are married, which is a legal as well as emotional bonding. Without evidence to the contrary, the law believes the spouse has the best interests at heart. A spouse is legal next of kin. There is no reason to believe that the next of kin is lying unless there is evidence of it.

[ace2u_in_MD]

426. simple...

He stated that she did.

Prove he lied...

[RadiDem]

44. Read what a depraved xtian freepturd thinks about Schiavo >>>>

And her 15 year long hellish nightmare....

"Suffering IS REDEMPTIVE!! Her life and suffering IS NOT IN VAIN!"


Sick sick sick

[truthpusher]

62. Schiavo Update 2/25: Man Cleared to Remove Wife's Feeding Tube(in 3 weeks)

sounds like this could be the final say on this? "The court is no longer comfortable granting stays simply upon the filings of new motions," Greer wrote. "There will always be 'new' issues."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20050225/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman

Man Cleared to Remove Wife's Feeding Tube

6 minutes ago U.S. National - AP

By VICKIE CHACHERE, Associated Press Writer

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - A judge gave Terri Schiavo's husband permission to remove the brain-damaged woman's feeding tube in three weeks, handing him a victory in his effort to carry out what he says were his wife's wishes not to be kept alive artificially.

The ruling by Pinellas Circuit Court Judge George Greer will allow the husband, Michael Schiavo, to order the tube removed at 1 p.m. on March 18. In the meantime, the woman's parents, who want her kept alive, are expected to ask another court to block the order from taking effect.

The judge wrote that he was no longer comfortable granting delays in the long-running family feud, which has been going on for nearly seven years and has been waged in every level of Florida's court system. He said the case must end.

"The court is no longer comfortable granting stays simply upon the filings of new motions," Greer wrote. "There will always be 'new' issues."

complete story: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20050225/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman

[OldLeftieLawyer]

63. This is the kind of bullshit that drives me nuts

"If Mr. Schiavo legally succeeded in provoking the death of his wife, this would not only be tragic in itself, but it would be a serious step toward legally approving euthanasia in the United States," Cardinal Renato Martino, the head of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, told Vatican Radio on Thursday."

Can you believe this priggish little virgin has the gall to use the phrase "... provoking the death of his wife..."?????

[Fenris]

66. Yes. He's a Vatican propaganda stooge.

[janx]

76. Hi, LL!

:hi:

Do you honestly think any other court is going to touch this one? I can't imagine that any other court would want to get near it.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

122. At this point,

I can imagine anything.

Who would have believed this bullshit allegation of "abuse" has surfaced again and some gutless judge has granted yet another delay so that the allegation can be "investigated"? They've alleged abuse several times so far, and it's never been proven.

I feel so sorry for Mr. Schiavo. No one deserved to have his life hijacked like this while he was simply trying to do the right thing.

[janx]

138. Well, at least Greer finally washed his hands of it.

I can't believe how long he dealt with them.

[kskiska]

254. What's really funny is the way they quote the Vatican

only when it supports their view. The Pope has expressed his views against the war in Iraq, against the death penalty, and any number of other issues. But I guess we're supposed to pay attention to this one.

It's also funny how these pro-family, christian values people want to break up marriages and families of people they dislike. I remember how they were salivating over the Clinton's "impending divorce," and desperately looking for problems in the Kerry marriage. Now they want to break up the Schiavo marriage.

[Fenris]

64. I need to make sure

That, before too long, I get all of this kind of shit squared away. If I'm ever in an accident that renders me brain damaged, just pull the fucking plug. This case should make people consider the possibility that they may one day be in a serious accident and incapacitated like that woman is, and if they don't want a possible legal battle, they need to talk to a lawyer.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

149. PM me

and leave me your email address, and you've got a FREE Health Care Power Of Attorney that you can fill in and execute and your worries are pretty much over.

[Lenore]

240. Yep, settle this stuff now!

I totally agree with your post and that we need to take care of this stuff now while we have the mental capacity to make such a decision.

As for me, I have told my family that if I am not on life support (not on a respirator) and able to know people, grunt, smile and live even like Terri.. I want to live.

My husband on the other hand has made it perfectly clear that, while not wanting to see Terri starved or caused to die, he himself would not want to be kept alive in such a state. In fact he has quite high requirements and has strongly stated "if I have a vocabulary of less than 3,000 words then I am not there enough.. stop the food."

Other than Michael and his family, none other have ever contended that Terri made such a death wish. And he never made this assertion during the year he was playing the part of the loving and caring husband, you know, by dutifully suing and getting a 7 figure settlement meant to care for Terri.

Only after the settlement, then suddenly did Michael remember and feel deeply convicted to end Terri's life.

And.. you know, even that might have been ok but for one small yet very important point:

IS SHE REALLY BRAIN DEAD or does Michael simply want her dead and gone so bad that he would treat her as dead, denying her even the most basic of care for so long that she can no longer even grunt out "help me" like she used to?

Is she REALLY brain dead or are we simply advancing euthanasia to the point where severely disabled people are fair game also??

[AZCat]

244. Luckily we have this thing...

called the legal system where questions like this are asked and answered.

M. Schiavo asked, and the court answered...and answered...and answered. This has gone on since 1998 - long enough, in the view of the court, to have decided this case definitively.

[Lenore]

249. The judge is blind...

Literally!

[AZCat]

251. And in response...

"I have one final thing I want you to consider: Ladies and gentlemen this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk, but Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now, think about that. That does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee�an eight foot tall Wookiee�want to live on Endor with a bunch of two foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!"


Please familiarize yourself with the phrases "ignoratio elenchi" and "red herring".

More information can be found here and here, if you are inclined to investigate.

[henjack]

347. Cool.

Finally justice is blind.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

262. Naw, she's doing just fine

Terri's such a prankster, she's just been goofing on everybody for the past fifteen years.

That Terri.

What a kidder.

[Liberal Veteran]

65. Bingo. This has been tied up in court for years.

And Michael Schiavo has won every case.

The family has had every opportunity in the world to prove their various claims in a court of law and they have consistently failed.

It's time to put an end to this sad and tragic story.

[msanthrope]

68. Excellent website that lists all the info on Terri--and does not

not take sides--squashes lots of rumors, too.


http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[Zuni]

78. thank you

I'm glad there is somewhere that will explore the whole story

[janx]

79. I like that web site too--

and post links to it from time to time. It explains a lot and cuts through all of the misinformation and rumors that have been circulating.

[goodboy]

77. It is our human obligation to feed the hungry, it's not as if she's hooked

up to a respirator...

If the feeding tube is removed, this is murder...by starving her to death.

If her parents believe with proper therapy she could improve, then she should be given the chance to improve.

[janx]

82. Let me ask you something.

If your spouse or daughter lost a leg, would you expect it to grow back?

[Zuni]

86. I certainly wouldn't do what a horse owner would do!

and I would never starve anyone to death for any reason. Ted bundy got a better death than what Michael Schiavo wants to do to her.

[moobu2]

106. Feeding tubes are withdraw all the time all over the world

There isn't anything unusual about this other than the amount of money the right to life people have spent to slander the husband and spread lies.

Look, withdrawing a feeding tube is no different than deciding not to start one in the first place after someone looses interest in food when they're in the dying process, that happens very commonly. Doctors just dont do that when there isnt any hope for improvement.

There isn't anything unusual about this, like I said. Maybe you and people like you just aren't aware of that, I don't know.

[goodboy]

225. no, but I wouldn't stop feeding her.

[Megahurtz]

84. This could go on and on.

:(

[moobu2]

101. It could but

the courts are recently showing signs that they've had enough of the Schindler shenanigans..

[janx]

102. You noticed that too?

;-)

[Liberal Veteran]

107. Which is probably a good thing.

The bottom line is that everything that was Terri died years ago and the fighting is over a breathing corpse.

The Schindler's have had every opportunity in the world to prove their case, time and time and time again.

This is tragic on many levels, but even when this case is over, the forces that are truly behind the constant court battles are going to wail over this for about a week and then they'll target yet another family in a similar situation and it'll be the same thing all over again.

[CTyankee]

112. The terrible thing

is that when we are faced with her possible death by starvation, it just hits you hard emotionally. About a month ago, it looked like my 93 year old mother might face the feeding tube decision and it would be mine, under the living will my mother drew up. I can tell you that I was utterly devasted by the thought of making that decision. My mother was conscious. The idea of deliberately withholding food was the worst emotional torture I've ever endured. Luckily, the crisis passed and my mother is recovering. It is awful that the far right wing is squeezing everything they can from this, but being directly responsible for a person's death is a horrible thing.

[moobu2]

116. it's a decision that has to be made though.

You owe it to your loved one who can not make that decision themselves.

I'm glad you mother recovered, but really, the Terri Schiavo case is in another category altogether -her entire higher brain is dead.

Terri Schiavo is more like a corpse than anything else and unlike your mother, no recovery is possible for Terri.

[CTyankee]

370. Yes, you are right

and I fully understand the difference. I don't know a lot obout this case and reading these posts has given me lots of information. When I saw footage of Terri on the news reports she looked conscious and that unsettled me. In my mind the scenario of removing a feeding tube is when a patient is irreversibly comatose.

[Horse with no Name]

117. I wonder if anyone realizes how many are taken off

of feedings to end their life in this country every year?
The people who disagree with this tactic would more than likely be appalled if they knew the actual numbers.
The thing is..I have never seen this done without the entire family in agony over this decision that they feel was the best thing in the worst circumstances.
This doesn't just happen at nursing homes, but happens in large hospital settings as well.
In my experience of taking care with these types of patients, they will generally initiate a morphine drip at the same time they discontinue food and medications. This drip is titrated up (unless you start seeing signs of morphine toxicity) until the patient reaches of point of being total obtunded and unconscience. You leave the drip at that point unless you notice signs of agitation or pain.
It is the most humane way to do this, although I have to admit...it always bothered me very much to be the nurse assigned to these patients.
It didn't bother me as much if the patients were very old and in extreme pain and distress from cancer or the like, but I did NOT like doing the younger patients that were chronically ill or incapacitated.
It is heartbreaking to watch. It is not a matter of just lying down and going to sleep. It is an ugly death.
I wouldn't ever want to make this decision regarding anyone's life and I pray I will never have to, but one of the physician's that I worked with was talking to a family and summed it up to them..."...whichever decision you make is the RIGHT one and to not second guess yourself with woulda's, coulda's, and shoulda's".
Peace to her and her family. I can't imagine making this difficult decision only to have to keep making it over and over again.

[moobu2]

125. Yeah? well you just continue a feeding tube for your family well after

their entire higher brain has died and leave everyone else who really cares about our own families alone.

[Horse with no Name]

135. Hmmmm...

I don't believe I ever said what I would or wouldn't do--was just giving a viewpoint from one that has seen it done and giving insight on the process in which they do it for those that might be interested.
Who do you think you are to judge that I do or don't "really care about my family"?
What an elitest and smug attitude you have.

[LisaL]

183. She won't be allowed any morphine. She was allowed none

last time.

[janx]

Did you ever pause to wonder

WHY?

[LisaL]

208. I know why-for legal reasons. People on morphine die faster,

and she was supposed to die "naturally".
She wasn't supposed to have nothing in her mouth. She wasn't even allowed communion, because they were going to put some wafer in her mouth, and nothing was allowed.

[janx]

229. Do you realize what would happen if someone put something

in her mouth?!

[janx]

230. Lizzy, she has no cerebral cortex!

Why would anyone give morphine to a person who has no cerebral cortex?

[LisaL]

273. You have no idea what she feels or doesn't feel.

Unless somebody without a cerebral cortex can tell Drs. what they can feel, you can not claim she doesn't feel pain.

[janx]

291. The only reason I can think of that she might be given morphine

is to relax the reflexive responses that she does have.

Medical science is something I try to pay attention to. It is not faith; it is not a belief system. It is fact.

My faith is something different.

[VirginiaDem]

302. Actually, I'm pretty sure that medical doctors and scientists

know quite well what the lack of a cerebral cortex implies...but the question is do you?

[Horse with no Name]

199. That really sucks.

:(

[Old and In the Way]

246. This was never a problem 200 years ago.

Of course, medicine has increased the average life by 30 years, so what are you going to do? Modern medicine is both a miracle and a curse. We need to be able to understand that medical ethics has to change as our technology has changed.

We all are going to die someday. Those arguing for her to remain tubed and on auto-pilot must really fear their own mortality. It's quality of life, not quantity.

[Horse with no Name]

252. I agree 100%

I personally wouldn't want to be "alive" like that.
My view was probably totally misinterpreted but I will be plain about it--NO family members that I have seen have ever made this decision lightly and have totally agonized over it.
Nobody should ever be second guessed about their motives--let alone dragged to court this many times over it.
We can't "assume" what happened in their marriage. She didn't leave the marriage--that implies consent that she was dedicated to their marriage. Whether or not thats true--abuse allegations have no place here unless there is irrefutable evidence (her written statements) that he abused her.
I don't understand why those say he should divorce her?
Why?
Why do you care that he has gone on with his life?
He isn't the one that is basically brain dead without any hope for recovery. People deserve to be happy.
There isn't any large amount of money left--only further bills in the future.
When her parents die--who is going to be left responsible?
Her husband.
He has made the tough decision as her immediate next of kin.
Everyone else needs to just butt out and let his decision be carried out.

[Old and In the Way]

324. I've been confronted with the same situation in my life.

My mom had ALS, a nuero-muscular disease that always ends in death. She suffered a progressive and irreversible wasting of every muscle in her body. Her last weeks were total paralysis, unable to talk or even move her head. Communication was reduced to the blinking of her eyes. My sisters (and to a much lesser extent my brother and I) cared for her around the clock for 4 months.

When the time of her death was approaching, her Doctor asked if we wanted to spare her the anxiety (most horribly, ALS does not affect the brain function and she knew her body was failing) of her imminent death. A morphine drip would relax her and eventually her heart would just stop. None of us hesitated, because it was the right thing to do.

I'd love for any of these "life at any cost" posters to tell me or my brother and sisters that we didn't do the right thing for our mother. No doubt these posters have ever been in a situation where their beliefs have been challenged by reality. Only if they are, will they suddenly "get it".

[Horse with no Name]

348. I am sorry for your loss

ALS is, in my opinion, the most brutal of all, for the reasons you stated. It spares the mind.
I can't imagine being locked in your body with no way out and no way to communicate.
I agree, you did the right thing.

[Donailin]

352. This is a very tough call

As a mother of a beautiful daughter that i adore, I would probably do everything I could to keep her alive, BUT on the other hand, I would NOT want my daughter-- my children -- to keep me alive at any cost.
If it were my husband, I would think that we would have known one another enough to know what we would want the other to do, and that would probably mean no life support. 15 years? I think that five years would be the maximum time to determine if there was any hope at all.
Very emototional issue, I hope I never have to be in that situation.

[Nikia]

368. My mother was an administrator at a Catholic nursing home

She cmmented one day about how upset she was when they removed the feeding tube of one comatosed retired priest with no living family. She thought that it was rather cruel. He died after 12 days. She said that it really bothered her.

[Liberal Veteran]

131. One wonders about another thing as well....

What happens if the Schindler's win and 20 years down the road, both parents are dead and there is still no improvement?

What becomes of Terri then?

And if (as is 99% likely) she never improves at all until the day she dies 20 years down the road from muscle atrophy and organ failure, will all the bleating masses trying to claim Terri is the victim of some sinister plot by her husband finally admit they were wrong?

[LisaL]

178. She has a younger brother.

[Liberal Veteran]

186. A younger brother who probably has a life of his own.

Seems like that would just compound the tragedy.

[LisaL]

188. He is frequently on TV supporting his parents decisions to

keep Terri alive. I presume that means he is willing to take care of her should something happen to her parents.

[Liberal Veteran]

207. That's a heck of a presumption.

Supporting one's parents doesn't necessarily mean one is prepared to become the medical guardian of Terri.

But it really doesn't answer the question. The question really is "when is it enough"?

At what point are people going to say "Okay...we spent "x" number of years trying to help her, but there is nothing more to be done?"

Obviously there should be some point where we say "we've done all we can".....so where is that line?

[kskiska]

258. Suppose Terri Schiavo develops cancer or some other

life-threatening disease? Will she receive chemo or be operated on? Suppose she contracts MS or Parkinson's? Suppose she has a stroke? How far would her parents go to keep her alive? They'd have to make a decision somewhere down the line. It won't look good if they decide to remove that feeding tube.

[moobu2]

308. That's the thing

The Schindlers were actually questioned about that in court. They were asked (hypothetically) how far they would got to continue the life support, and would it make any difference to them if they knew for a fact that Terri said she wouldn't want this.

They said they would cut her limbs off if necessary, put her on a respirator and so on, and the amount of pain that might cause her was irrelevant and that they wouldn't let what Terri wanted herself, influence their decision to continue life support.

They have some sick views if you ask me.

[LisaL]

363. Then she should be appointed a legal guardian.

I don't believe for a second her husband has her best interest in heart.

[moobu2]

433. She's had 3 court appointed guardians, one appointed by Jeb Bush

The guardian reports are available online if you care to read them. All the reports are full of praise for Michael and describe him as a loving, caring husband who gave Terri every treatment possible.

Even the Schindlers testified in court early on, before the right to life groups got involved, that Michael was loving, caring and gave Terri exceptionally good treatment. Terri never in all the years up until last year even had a bed sore, which is very unusual for bedridden people.

You ever thought it was possible that you have a completely distorted view of the facts because of all the propaganda the parents backers are spreading? You have to remember, the husband isn't conducting a public relations campaign like the parents backers are, so unless you get information from the court documents, your getting a very one sided distorted view.

[LisaL]

436. LOL. I have seen the husband giving interviews on TV now and

then-what exactly do you mean by he is not conducting a public relations campaign? Maybe his campaign is just not very good?

[moobu2]

439. So he gave 2 interviews after 500 from the Schindlers

That makes a public relations campaign? Do a goggle search for Terri schiavo and you'll probably get 100's of thousands of hits, like I did, mostly from rightwing right-to-life people spreading the most vile rumors and accusations imaginable. Most all the rightwing websites, who support the parents, are run by PR people.

The parents own website, terrisfight.org is run by a public relations pro named Pamela Hennessy. Randall Terry boasts on his site that the first thing he did when the he got involved is put his PR guy on the case.

The husband has zero websites. Giving a couple of interviews is not a PR campaign. The husband isn't conducting a similar PR campaign.

Of coarse the parents cant win in court where the truth and law prevails so they have to resort to false accusations and distortions which is par for the coarse with the right today.

[kskiska]

136. MSNBC just had a doctor from the U. of Penn. on

the Ron Reagan/Monica Crowley program. He said that after 15 years of being in this condition, there is NO chance of improvement. He said there's no problem regarding "starving" to death, and that many times patients themselves will request a feeding tube be withdrawn. He said the husband is chosen as guardian because he's considered to be more recently intimately connected with the person's thinking and beliefs. Also said that if there was abuse, the case has been in court long enough for it to be proven as an issue.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

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[moobu2]

145. She isnt in a coma your right, it's much worse than that

her entire higher brain system is dead. She's more like a living corpse.

[AZCat]

147. It's a weird inversion of...

"The Brain that Wouldn't Die".

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

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[janx]

160. Higher brain system.

Are you new to this? You might want to read about the human brain.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

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[janx]

165. Where did you see "human brain system" ?

?

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

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[janx]

172. "Higher brain system" is a relevant term.

That poster was referring to the fact that she has no cerebral cortex, the part of the brain that makes us conscious human beings.

The only brain activity that Terri's body has left is reflexive. That's what makes this so difficult. She can breathe, blink, make sounds, defecate, etc., but there's no Terri there.

[saigon68]

346. ADIOS

Vaya Con Dios

[janx]

154. Which is why she will never "awaken." n/t

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

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[AZCat]

200. Again with the APFN link?

Can't you find a more reliable source, or is the only place that will host such a file?

[janx]

203. What is APFN?

?

[AZCat]

206. APFN = "American Patriot Friends Network"

www.apfn.org

A.K.A. a repository of dubious claims.

[moobu2]

209. APFN=MERICAN PATRIOT FRIENDS NETWORK

It's some kind of off the weird conspiracy group

"American Patriot Friends Network a/k/a American Patriot Fax Network was founded Feb. 21, 1993. We started with faxing daily reports from the Weaver-Harris trials. Then on Feb. 28 1993, The BATF launched Operation Showtime - "The Siege on the Branch Davidians". From this point, it's been the Death of Vince Foster, the Oklahoma Bombing, TWA-800, The Train Deaths, Bio-War, on and on. We are not anti-government, we are anti-corrupt-government. A Patriot is one who loves God, Family and Country.....

We believe Patriots should rule America.... Please join in the fight with us in seeking TRUTH, JUSTICE AND FREEDOM FOR ALL AMERICANS...."
http://www.apfn.org/apfn.htm

[janx]

217. LOL !!!!!!!!!! n/t

[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

210. Deleted message

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[AZCat]

212. Find a different source...

and we'll consider your claims.

The messenger is important - look at Fox News (or don't - I choose not to).

[Name removed]

218. Deleted message

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[AZCat]

227. Not my point at all

Has Fox News lied? Yes.

Can they be trusted as a news source? No.

Linking to a Fox News article on DU will not win an argument, nor will linking to sites such as APFN. They are simply not trustworthy, so please (if you are able) provide a valid link.


Regarding the question about M. Schiavo - the courts have repeatedly sided with him. I suggest you familiarize yourself with their decisions - it might clear up some of your questions.

[Dookus]

257. What money are you talking about?

there is no more money.

[moobu2]

248. The doctor who ordered that scan testified for Michael, the husband. n/t

[Name removed]

216. Deleted message

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[moobu2]

224. Yes the bone scan lie

The parents lied and claimed the husband was hiding the bone scan because they were insinuating he caused her injuries.
There are several Schindler lies tied to the bone scans but anyway here's a link to the courts ruling on them.
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02-scan.pdf

[phylny]

239. I'll tell you what, whatever PTs wrote that report should be fired for

writing it incorrectly, if indeed they wrote that.

As someone who used to work in a hospital, and who has to write clinical reports all the time, you never say "seemed to be experiencing pain." That's subjective. The correct way to write a report would be to DESCRIBE BEHAVIOR that you see, such as:

"As I was positioning the patient, I observed a facial grimace, the patient stiffened to my touch and moved away from me, and the patient moaned."

See the difference? You can never presuppose what a patient feels. You can report subjectively on what you see and what the patient says, but the main body of your report must be objective. You describe the behavior you observed.

Look up "SOAP notes" to understand more.

[moobu2]

267. Exactly,

that same doctor also testified in court to correct what he wrote on that report. Also, the therapist said the fractures could have easily been caused by very aggressive CPR and the later physical therapy, where they were very rough with her body etc...all brought up in court years ago.


Terri was also bulimic and malnourished which very easily could have weakened her bones making fracturing more easy.

[kskiska]

232. What does Ron Reagan or dogs have to do with it?

Re the woman who woke from the coma, the doctor said the fact that she did revive showed that her brain was not damaged. It was stalled, as a TV picture keeps rolling. She was not brain damaged, as Schiavo is. The longer a brain damaged person is in her condition, the less likely the chances for recovery. 15 years is quite a long time.

I don't remember the dr.'s name, but he had no personal or professional stake in the case at all. He was merely giving his professional opinion.

[ima_sinnic]

194. this case draws all the wingnuts out, here on DU

all of you who think it is "murder" to let the poor woman die, who would rather "play God" (and also play "let's pretend this is a sentient being who will one day jump up and resume her life again") by keeping nutrients circulating in her corpse need to sit down and write explicit instructions: no matter the cost, no matter how many years your body is a burden to others, no matter how much heartbreak it will cause your loved ones to see your empty shell of a body day after day, no matter how many people could benefit from the resources your empty shell is using to process "food," you want to be kept alive artificially as long as possible. The burden of "making your wishes known" should be on those few selfish nutballs who really do want to be kept on "life support." And you better have the financial means to ensure that kind of living hell. I for one would rather my taxes were spent to help the truly living, not to keep some body alive. For the other 99.99% of the population, it should be a given that when life is done, it's done.

[janx]

197. It really does.

And it brings in some new ones, too. I hope they're prepared to live a life like Weekend at Bernies, man.

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

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[ima_sinnic]

221. you have a living will, but you would deny that right to a peaceful

end to someone else?

"IF" she were under the guardianship of her parents you would support them. hey, guess what? she's NOT. and why would you, anyway? you would support them in their mad crusade of keeping a body alive? WHAT ABOUT POOR TERRI? we ALL know, because we all would want it for ourselves, that she would not want to be kept alive when it is time to die.

and what's this "conflicted husband" BS? you know him or something? or you just believe all the crap that is spewed by the "right to control others" nutjobs?

[Name removed]

231. Deleted message

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[moobu2]

236. That guy from The Village Voice

Just repeated verbatim the families lies off that website the right to life people operate for them.

If you got you info there then you are VERY misinformed.

Try this site
http://abstractappeal.com/
and this page
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[Name removed]

242. Deleted message

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[moobu2]

245. Crackpot? ha...I'm done with you, you obviously could care less

about what you're talking about. BTW Abstract Appeal is run by an appellate attorney, far from some crackpot.

[janx]

247. "any crackpot can put a site up"

Well that's certainly true. And there are a lot of those surrounding the Schiavo case!

But abstractappeal is good because it presents the facts of the case. There is no speculation or interpretation involved. Once those things are absent, the case begins to look much clearer.

[janx]

222. Terri was a married adult when this happened. And according

to Florida law, a spouse is the next of kin.

If you don't like the laws, then do what you legally and ethically can to change them.

[Liberal Veteran]

234. I'm surprised the wingnuts heads haven't exploded over this one.

The same people who go on and on and on about the "sanctity of marriage" are now forced to undermine the sanctity of marriage in order to advance a different agenda.

[janx]

238. I don't think they notice. It's like the Guckert/Gannon situation.

They either don't notice or don't care.

[moobu2]

243. That's what many people dont see

The Right Wing, Right to Life higher ups, want to erode privacy rights and legal relationships between parents and married adult children. They could care less about sactitiy of marriage. That's just a PR term they use whenever it suits their purpose.


They want parents to have the right to step in and make medical decisions for grown married children, even if the children wouldn't want it. That's why they've spent so much money on this case.

It's all about eroding privacy rights.

[Name removed]

250. Deleted message

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[Liberal Veteran]

255. Way to stand up for the sanctity of marriage there, partner!

:eyes:

[Name removed]

261. Deleted message

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[Liberal Veteran]

271. ROTFLMAO!

You should call whoever taught your "How to speak like a liberal" class and ask for a refund.

LOL!

[Dookus]

281. no kidding...

a sad attempt to "fit in".

[janx]

282. This has become so funny I can't stand it!

I'm going to get a glass of chardonnay...

[janx]

260. The one who took illegitimate authority in this case was Jeb

Bush--and Terri Schiavo's parents, who are simply puppets for the religious right.

[Name removed]

266. Deleted message

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[janx]

276. "allowed the Clintons to sell us out"--

You're taking some risks there, and I think they might prove more fatal than my "choosing the wrong side." ;-)

[janx]

286. Who defined himself or herself as anti-anything?

It must be getting late where you are.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

272. You are a very funny character

You're woefully mis- and uninformed about this case, but you're a great foil for the informed folks here to slap around.

Good. They need the exercise.

:)

[Name removed]

279. Deleted message

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[janx]

285. "get real, get active, get radical" !!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

native peoples!!!

Edit: *I'm* going to need a ventilator soon...can't get enough oxygen...laughing too hard!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

294. I'm retired?

Shit. I keep showing up here and they keep coming up with things for me to do, clients to see, court dates to keep, and then, in my spare time, as a reward, I guess, since you just told me I'm retired, I get to bounce sanity off the hollow skull of a short-sighted, information-challenged lower life form like you.

Now, if I'm retired, why do I keep getting all this money?

Oh, right. Because there are people like you out there, and, as I've always said in my years of practice, "Stupidity has been very, very good to me."

Thanks for the laugh. There'll be extra kibble in your bowl tomorrow.

[janx]

301. I'm actually almost going to miss that one!

That was so damned funny.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

328. Me, too

It's like they deliver themselves into my paws, and, after that, I'm genetically forced to bite off their tiny little heads.

;)

[barb162]

428. What makes you so informed? Did you see the entire medical record?

[Erika]

263. Agreed, the RW wants big theocratic government in

the life of American citizens.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

274. They're such

morans.

[janx]

280. EXACTLY.

;-)

[ace2u_in_MD]

400. They have come out of the woodwork like cockroaches...

"this case draws all the wingnuts out, here on DU"

And all spewing the same things, verbatim, from Terri's parents website. Looks orchestrated to me...

[ima_sinnic]

408. I notice some (? one?) have been tombstoned since I posted that

-- nice try, wingnuts! but nobody here is buying.

[Erika]

293. Extremists have been proven wrong.

After repeated investigations and accusations aimed at Terri's husband, the Court(s) has found only exemplary guardianship by her husband.

There is no pot of gold when Terri dies but I wouldn't be surprised if the parents write a book and continue using her as a poster child for a political agenda, even after her death.

The U.S.S.C. even has refused to hear it.

The sanctity of marriage has been preserved.

[janx]

296. And the appeals for money go out:

From Robert Schindler via NewsMax (the same day he told Chris Matthews he didn't need "a dime" from anyone):

Dear NewsMax Reader:

Please find below an important message from Terri Shiavo's father, Bob Schindler Sr. They have some important information to share with you regarding new attempts to starve his disabled daughter to death. Please take action right away on this important issue.

Thank you.

NewsMax.com

Help Save My Daughter From Starvation! (from Terri Schiavo's father)

Dear Friend of Life,

By now you have probably heard about a young woman who is threatened with starvation in Florida.

That young woman is my daughter, Terri. In 1990, through circumstances which are shrouded in mystery (and may involve a criminal act by Terri's estranged husband), my daughter was left severely brain-damaged.

But before I go any further, I must put an end to the lies and misinformation that are circulating around the country through the media concerning my daughter's condition.

Contrary to anything you may have heard, Terri is NOT brain dead; Terri is NOT in a coma; she is NOT in a "persistent vegetative state;" nor is she on ANY life-support system.


Terri Schiavo responds
to her mother's touch

Terri laughs, Terri cries, she moves, and she makes child-like attempts at speech with her mother and me. Sometimes she will say "Mom" or "Dad" or "yeah" when we ask her a question. When I kiss her hello or goodbye, she looks at me and "puckers up" her lips.

This may not seem like much to you, but it means everything to Terri's mother and me. It tells us she is still here, she still knows us, and with therapy and time she can have some level of recovery.

I know that there are some hard hearted people who believe that due to my daughters condition, she is better off dead. Words cannot describe the pain and anger such sentiments cause us. This is our daughter, our little girl, and even in her disabled condition, she still has the right to life and the right to be loved and cared for by her family.

Why, you may ask, is Terry in danger of death by starvation?

It is a long and outrageous story, but I'll give it to you as briefly as I can.

After the "incident" that left Terry in this condition, her husband Michael Schiavo sued various members of the medical community for money, saying that they did not treat or diagnose her properly at an early stage, and that he needed this money to provide for Terri's therapy and rehabilitation and care.

After lengthy court battles, he finally won upwards of $1.7 million under the guise of caring for our daughter, and then to our horror, he immediately began spending the money on himself and his Playboy lifestyle.

Terri's estranged husband Michael Schiavo has been living with another woman for years, and has two children by her. He is determined to see Terri dead. Why? We believe it's because he gets to keep whatever money is left... and he may have even darker motives than that.

To add insult to all of this injury toward my daughter, Michael Schiavo is still her "legal husband" and therefore is her "guardian." And since they are not legally divorced, he controls whatever health care she will and will not get. We are not even allowed to know if she is getting aspirin.

In 1993 my family initiated litigation against Michael Schiavo solely for the purpose of acquiring medical, physical and neurological assistance for our daughter Terri. The litigation escalated in 1998 when Michael Schiavo petitioned the court to stop Terri from receiving food and water, thereby starving her to death.

In filing this legal action, he retained the services of a high profile euthanasia attorney and the financial backing of powerful euthanasia organizations. He also used Terri's medical rehabilitation money to underwrite much of the legal expenses associated with his effort to starve our daughter to death.

We know that he has spent nearly $500,000 of Terri's money in attorney's fees for just one attorney trying to obtain a court order to have Terri starved to death. The very money that was supposed to be used for Terri's rehabilitation is being used to have her killed.

We very quickly discovered it was impossible for us to compete with the abundance of financial and legal resources the pro-death organizations were providing Micheal Schiavo in their effort to kill Terri. They are pouring time and effort into her starvation because they want to use this case to further the agenda of legalized euthanasia.

My wife and I are not wealthy people. Throughout those years, we did not have any large organizations trying to help rescue our daughter. Consequently, we had to rely on the generosity of attorneys who were willing to offer their legal expertise at no cost or at reduced fees.

The bottom line is that we are in the final weeks or months of our struggle to rescue our daughter from an untimely death by starvation. Death by starvation is very slow, and extremely painful. As you must know, it is against the law to deliberately starve an animal to death. There are members of the Florida court who would not treat a dog the way they plan to treat my daughter.

At this point we must pull out all the stops in our fight to rescue our daughter.

As parents, we are desperate to save our daughter's life. As people who love life, we are determined to deprive the euthanasia advocates of successfully legalizing this form of homicide. We believe that their efforts to kill Terri are designed to set a precedent for the future eradication of defenseless disabled human beings. I was alive when Americans fought the Nazis; I do not want my daughter to meet the same fate of thousands of disabled people in Nazi Germany, and I do not want our country to go down that same dark path.

Friend, though we have never met, I'm asking you for your help. We desperately need your financial assistance to help our family continue the battle to keep our daughter from being starved to death. There are so many expenses in a case like this it is mind-boggling and overwhelming. Please click below to make a contribution now:

https://secure.cartlight.com/merchant/terri/?afid=max

Our adversaries believe that by our family's financial attrition and difficulties, they will attain their objective of killing our daughter. Presently, Terri's starvation may only be a few weeks away, unless we find the financial resources to prevent this atrocity from becoming a reality.

I implore you to please help us. We are writing to you, because we believe you have a heart for justice and mercy. I'm asking you to put yourself in my shoes, and then do whatever you can to help our family. Whether it is $10 or $1000, we are desperate for the resources to fight this battle for our daughter's life at this critical juncture.

Please do whatever you can, and forward this e-mail to any friends or family that you have who you think might be interested in saving Terri's life.

I thank you for your time, your concern, and I solicit your prayers for Terri and our entire family. These have been very trying times for us all.

Sincerely,

Bob Schindler Sr.

GO HERE TO CONTRIBUTE NOW!

http://view.exacttarget.com/?ffcd16-febd137970640d79-fe0615737560067876117275

[janx]

298. Another one, from a "secondary source"--

To: TAdams8591

A MUST READ!!!



Voice for Terri
Pro-Life Leaders Working Together to Save Terri Schiavo
Please Help Us Rescue Terri Schiavo From a Horrible Death by Starvation!
February 21st, 2005
The moment her feeding tube is removed, Terri Schiavo will begin a long, slow, painful death by starvation and dehydration.

WE NEED YOUR HELP NOW to rescue Terri from her cruel executioners. They’ve already tried to kill her once before, and she fought to stay alive.

But this may be the last chance Terri gets.

Will you help save her life?

A Special Appeal from Pro-Life Leaders Working Together to Save Terri Schiavo

Fr. Frank Pavone * Rev. Patrick Mahoney * Rev. Rob Schenck
Joe Scheidler * Troy Newman * Brandi Swindell * Mike McMonagle

Dear Friend,

Medical experts all agree that death by starvation and dehydration is perhaps the most painful, the most tortuous, and the most agonizing way to die.

Let’s face it: The human body must have water and nutrition! Just try going for one day without ANY food or liquids—and see how you feel. You won’t like it!

But in the case of Terri Schiavo—the disabled woman in Florida whose husband wants her gastro feeding tube removed so that she’ll die by starvation and dehydration—a nationwide controversy has erupted over the “right” to kill someone who can’t defend herself… can’t feed herself… and can’t speak for herself.

No doubt you’ve heard of Terri’s case. But unfortunately, you probably haven’t been told the whole story.

So if you’ll take the next few minutes to read the facts of this case, we think you’ll agree that putting Terri to death by starvation and dehydration would be the most cruel thing her husband could possibly do. And for the courts, the doctors, and our society to allow it—and participate in it—would be a crime against the sanctity of human life… and put every disabled person’s life in danger.
Lies, Myths, and Misconceptions
About Terri

Be a voice for Terri SchiavoIf you’ve heard about Terri only through the news media, you’ve probably been led to believe that Terri is in a coma… that she’s brain dead… that she’s a vegetable… that she’s on extraordinary life support… or that she wants to die but her parents stubbornly won’t let it happen.

Let me state categorically that nothing could be further from the truth!

Terri is NOT brain dead. She is NOT in a coma. She is NOT in a “persistent vegetative state.” And she is not on ANY life-support system.

She merely receives food and liquid through a gastro feeding tube because her brain injury prevents her from being able to swallow. In other words, Terri depends on food and water to stay alive—just like you and me!

Yes, her brain injury left her disabled. But there are tens of thousands of disabled people who depend on gastro feeding tubes every day, and they live otherwise normal lives.

Terri can breathe for herself. She is not on a ventilator. Her vital organs are working fine, which means she is not hooked up to a machine. Furthermore, she is not dying or being “kept alive” by artificial means. She does not have a terminal disease, and she will be able to feel pain if she is starved to death.

And that could start to happen in the next few days.

If her husband, Michael Schiavo, finally gets his way, he will force the medical staff at the hospice to remove Terri’s feeding tube so that she dies a horrible, painful death.
Why Does Michael Want Terri To Die?

It’s hard to say. When Terri suffered her brain injury in 1990 (which, by the way, occurred under very suspicious circumstances involving possible physical violence), Michael filed a malpractice lawsuit and was awarded $1.2 million in damages—blaming Terri’s condition on something the hospital staff did wrong when they were treating her.

In the malpractice trial, Michael told the jury that he dearly loved his wife and wanted to take care of her for the rest of his life. The $1.2 million was awarded specifically so that he could afford to give her the therapy and rehabilitation she required.

But then, soon after the money came in, Michael did an about-face and immediately terminated all of Terri’s therapy and rehab. And in 1998, he suddenly “remembered” that she once told him that she wouldn’t want to be “kept alive” artificially. So for the last 7 years, he has sought to get her gastro tube removed so that she would die by starvation and dehydration.

But being fed by a gastro tube does not qualify as “being kept alive artificially”! If you asked all the people who depend on their gastro tube if they would prefer to die because they’re being fed by a gastro tube, they would respond with a resounding “NO!”

But due to her brain injury, Terri can’t speak for herself. She has difficulty communicating. So she really can’t say if Michael is telling the truth or not—and whether or not she wants to die.

But we believe Terri does not want to die.

When her parents visit her, Terri laughs… she cries… she moves… and she makes child-like attempts at speech with her mother and father. Sometimes she will say “Mom” or “Dad” or “yeah” when they ask her a question. And when they kiss her hello or goodbye, she looks at them and “puckers up” her lips.

She’s able to sit in a chair… she loves to listen to her favorite music… and she recognizes her brother and sister when they come to visit.

She is definitely not in a “persistent vegetative state” (PVS). In fact, four board-certified neurologists… two board-certified internists… numerous other doctors… two speech pathologists… and a neuro-psychologist all say that Terri is not in PVS. Several of her nurses came forward to say this, too.

Other experts long ago confirmed that Terri could achieve significant recovery and lead a long, happy life if she were given proper rehab.

But Michael refused to allow proper rehab.

He also put a “Do Not Resuscitate” order on Terri’s chart. He tried to prevent the nurses from treating Terri’s infections—expecting her to develop sepsis and die. He did not allow her to be given speech or swallow therapy. He did not allow her to be given a “system” for communicating. He wouldn’t even let the nurses in the hospice put a rolled-up washcloth in her hand so that her fingers wouldn’t curl in!

Michael Schiavo hears prolife pleas for Terri's life outside his home.And get this: Soon after the malpractice money came in, Michael had Terri’s cats put to death… he stopped all her antibiotics… and he melted down her wedding ring for cash!

What’s more, he wouldn’t let her receive visits from the cute little doggies that they take through the hospices to cheer up the patients. He put her in a tiny windowless room by herself, and she’s not allowed to have any contact with other patients. She can’t go outside and see the sun. Plus, he turns family photos toward the wall so she can’t see them!

As anyone can see, Michael wants Terri to die – not get better.

In fact, even though he and Terri are still technically married, he’s been living with another woman. In fact, he has already fathered two children with her.

Even Larry King—when he interviewed Bob and Mary Schindler several months ago (September 27, 2004)—couldn’t figure out why Michael insists that Terri must die… especially when the Schindlers have begged him to let them take care of her for the rest of her life.

Michael has repeatedly told the Schindlers, “This is my wife. I will make the decisions, and you have nothing to say about it!”
But WHY?!?

Suspicions grew when the Schindlers found out about a bone scan that Terri underwent back in 1991. The doctors conducted this scan because Terri would cry out in pain during the little bit of therapy she had early on, and it turned up many shocking facts.

For instance, the physician who conducted the bone scan, Dr. W. Campbell Walker, wrote in his report, “This patient has a history of trauma.” He listed apparent injuries (mostly fractures) to Terri’s ribs, her lumbar vertebrae, her sacroiliac joints (which are near the hip), both her ankles, and both her knees.

Famed New York forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden – who was contacted by the news media, not the Schindlers – looked at this report last year and concluded, “It shows evidence that there are bone fractures that are in a healing stage… The trauma could be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It’s something that should have been investigated in 1991.”

But of course, Michael Schiavo never allowed the Schindlers to see the bone scan report. And when they sought to have it investigated after they found out about it three years ago, the courts refused to permit it.

All of this might lead you to ask…
How Could Someone Do All This
To Another Human Being?!?

We don’t know. We honestly don’t know.

If you tried to starve your dog to death, you’d feel the full force of the law and the wrath of every decent person in society.

But these days, if you want to get rid of someone because they’re “inconvenient,” you can do it “legally.” Euthanasia and abortion, you see, are two sides of the same evil coin. In order for society to justify killing an innocent person, we must first view them as being “sub-human.”

Unborn babies, for instance, are not “persons” in the eyes of the law, ever since Roe v. Wade. Therefore, if you don’t want the baby, you can kill it.

And thanks to the euthanasia movement, disabled patients such as Terri are deemed “unfit to live” and given “death with dignity.”

But all the compassionate rhetoric in the world can’t disguise one simple fact: Deliberately ending the life of an innocent human being who could easily live with ordinary care is murder, plain and simple.

Terri is a Catholic and the Catechism of the Catholic Church defines euthanasia as, “An action or an omission which, of itself or by intention, causes the death of handicapped, sick, or dying persons – sometimes with an attempt to justify the act as a means of eliminating suffering.”

The Catechism states that euthanasia “violates the fifth commandment of the law of God.”

“The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded,” it adds.

Many Americans don’t realize that Terri is NOT being kept alive against her will.

She is NOT being kept alive by “extraordinary means.”

And she is NOT in a “persistent vegetative state.”

She’s simply disabled, and needs proper care just like any other severely disabled person.

That’s why fourteen disability-rights organizations have filed “friend-of-the court” briefs to keep Terri alive. They know what this case means for other disabled persons.

Board-certified neurologist Dr. Jacob Green of Jacksonville, Florida, who examined Terri, said unequivocally: “She is not in a vegetative state.” When asked if it would be ethical to remove her feeding tube, he said, “I’d call it murder. They’re taking away any chance.”
WHY?

As you can undoubtedly see, this case really isn’t about the so-called “right-to-die,” as the news media calls it. It’s about Michael Schiavo attempting to kill his wife—and collect a lot of money that was supposed to go toward her therapy and rehabilitation. (“The love of money is the root of all evil. – 1 Tim. 6:10”)

The fight goes onAs far as the Schindler family is concerned, they’re fighting for Terri’s life because they love her very much. They don’t want her to be put to death. They don’t want her to suffer at the cruel hands of Michael Schiavo any longer. They want to help her get the rehabilitation and therapy she needs so badly. They want her to be happy and cared for by the people who love her.

Michael, on the other hand, wants her dead.

So does the ACLU, the Hemlock Society, and many other pro-death groups. They realize that if they lose this case, it will set the euthanasia movement back decades.

Pro-lifers and Christians of all kinds from all over the country and around the world are coming to Terri’s defense because, first of all, they can’t bear the thought of an innocent woman being murdered by the most painful death of all: starvation and dehydration.

And secondly, this fight is about whether or not we will allow the “culture of death” to completely take over our nation. If we lose this case, the floodgates will be wide open.

It’s also about keeping morality in medicine. Because doctors are supposed to heal, not kill.

It’s about teaching our children to have respect for life at all stages—from conception to natural death.

And it’s about whether or not our country will follow God’s laws—or be drenched in “blood-guilt” from all the innocent people we permit to be murdered with our full knowledge and consent.

A society is judged by how it treats its weakest members. The future of our society is at stake here. Will we, as the human family, have the readiness to care … or the willingness to kill?

No one has the right to make a judgment as to whose quality of life is better than another person’s. There’s no such thing as a worthless life.
What Must We Do?
And How Can YOU Help?

The Schindler family and dozens of pro-life attorneys from around the country have tried everything they could to keep Michael Schiavo, the courts, and the euthanasia fanatics from killing Terri.

But right now, time is running out for Terri. Her feeding tube could be removed THIS WEEK!!!

If it is, she will begin a long, slow, painful process of death by starvation and dehydration.

In fact, not long ago, Nurse Cheryl Ford–who took care of Terri at Woodside Hospice in Tampa, Florida—found an “Exit Protocol” in Terri’s file.

This “Exit Protocol” is a recipe for how to kill someone by starvation and dehydration, and then manage their symptoms while they slowly die.

* For instance, the nurses will put lip balm on Terri because her lips will crack, peel, and bleed from the dehydration.
* They’ll use body lotion because Terri’s skin will begin to break down and show signs of flaking, drying, cracking, or being parched.
* They’ll put a “scopolamine patch” behind her ear to enhance the drying up of saliva and other secretions.
* “Chux pads” will need to be used—and changed quite often because of incontinence of Terri’s bowels and bladder.
* When Terri begins to writhe in pain (multifocal myoclonus) and she becomes agitated from metabolic changes and electrolyte imbalances due to no fluids or nutrition, the attending staff will have to give her 5 to 10 mg of Valium (diazepam)—rectally—every 4 hours.
* If Terri experiences a Grand Mal seizure, they’ll give her 15 mg of Valium immediately, and then as needed thereafter.
* When her body shows signs of an inability to breathe by gasping for air (dyspnea), they will immediately give Terri 2 to 4 mg of morphine every 4 hours.
* And all of this will go on for 7 to 10 days…

Until Terri’s DEAD!

Radio talk show host Barbara Simpson had these timely insights…

“If this comes to pass, the court, the lawyers, the American Civil Liberties Union and Michael Schiavo will be responsible for Terri’s death… and also the deaths of others with cognitive disabilities who will be killed the same way once their families and lawyers use this case as precedent.

“Every living person, able or not, should be afraid. Very afraid. We’re all in danger from this immoral and illegal action, which makes it easier for someone to decide who lives or dies, when, and under what conditions.

“Terri Schiavo lives—day to day. She has survived a mysterious injury, 14 years of medical neglect and mistreatment, the actions of her husband, and the backhand of the courts. On that basis alone, she deserves to live.

“God help her. And help us too, if we allow her murder to take place.”
Terri Will Be Killed
If We Don’t Do Everything We Can!

Because virtually every legal effort to save Terri’s life has been slapped down by the courts—including the United States Supreme Court!—Terri’s feeding tube is scheduled to be removed as early as February 23rd… just two days from now!

The last time Terri’s feeding tube was removed—in October of 2003—she was forced to suffer without ANY food or water for 6-1/2 DAYS!!! It takes as little as 10 to 14 agonizing days to die of starvation and dehydration. But thanks be to God, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush stepped in and rescued Terri in the nick of time.

We hope he can do that again—but it will require a miracle.
And This Is Where YOU Come In…

The attorneys who are fighting for Terri’s life have a few more possible ways to prevent Terri’s murder. But these are last-ditch efforts that may or may not work. The courts are decidedly on Michael’s side—not Terri’s.

So that means we all have to come to Terri’s aid—especially through the amazing power of prayer and sacrifice—but also by sharing this story with everybody you know… by helping us get the truth to the news media and the American people… and by encouraging Governor Jeb Bush to do everything he can to rescue Terri once again.

Right now, we, the signers of this appeal, are in Florida fighting for Terri’s life on several different fronts: We’re meeting with key legislators and helping to get a new law passed that would save Terri’s life. We’re holding massive rallies and prayer vigils at the courthouse, the State Capitol, and the hospice where Terri lives. We’re even demonstrating outside Michael Schiavo’s home—urging him to let Terri live. We’re also networking with churches all over Florida and giving talks to educate the public.

The problem is, we don’t have enough money to keep this major campaign going. We all came down here with just the money in our pockets—taking a giant leap of faith that good people like you would come through for us so we could stay here as long as needed to save Terri.

We currently need $20,000 to keep going. So we’re hoping you’ll be able to help us out by making a secure, online donation of $35 or more today. That money will go directly to this project—which means you’ll be playing a vital role in the fight to save Terri’s life.

We believe there’s an excellent chance that, by putting enough pressure on the courts, the legislature, and Michael Schiavo, we CAN save Terri’s life.

But it’s going to take a determined, concerted effort on everyone’s part.

In fact, here are all the things we’re asking you to do…

1.) First, we want you to PRAY for Terri—harder than ever before! Not enough people are praying for Terri right now. And she needs our prayers now more than ever!

2.) Second, we want to ask you to FAST along with Terri if and when her feeding tube gets removed—and then offer up your sacrifices for her. If you can physically handle it, avoid taking any food or liquids for one whole day. By doing this, you’ll experience firsthand the unspeakable cruelty and pain that Terri will be suffering when they remove her feeding tube. Then offer that up for her sake.

3.) Third, please ENCOURAGE Governor Bush to do everything he can to rescue Terri. Since time is of the essence, we recommend that you send him an e-mail by clicking this link: [e-mail] Or, if you prefer, you can call his office at the Florida State Capitol at 850-488-4441.

4.) Fourth, if you can, DEMONSTRATE with us in front of Terri’s hospice in Pinellas, Florida. We need thousands upon thousands of good people to be there as a witness against this blatant murder of an innocent woman. We will demonstrate night and day, as well as start a hunger strike (for those who are able). So if you live in or near Florida, or you can make the trip from anywhere in the United States, please do. We need you.

5.) Fifth, please GIVE a donation of $35 or more to help cover the costs of defending Terri in her most pressing hour of need. We are calling this project “Voice for Terri”—because Terri can’t speak for herself. So we will be there to speak for her. And the more help we receive from good people like you from all around the country, the louder and stronger Terri’s Voice will be. Please make a secure online donation by clicking this link: DONATE HERE
(We had so little time to set this up, the tax-deducible donation will go through ORW)

6.) And finally, please FORWARD this e-mail to everyone on your e-mail list. The more people who know the true story about Terri Schiavo and how she is in imminent danger of being murdered, the greater our chances of achieving a victory in this life-or-death struggle between good and evil.

It’s hard to believe, but there are many hard-hearted people out there who believe that, due to Terri’s condition, she is “better off dead.” Words cannot describe the pain and anger such sentiments cause Terri’s family.

This is their daughter, their little girl. And even in her disabled condition, she still has the right to life and the right to be loved and cared for by her family.

Terri doesn’t have to die. If you’ll carry out five or six of the steps above, we believe we can win this battle and save Terri’s life.

But without your help, she’s dead.

Please do your part—immediately—because tomorrow may be too late.

Thank you… and God bless.

Signed,
Fr. Frank Pavone
Priests For Life

Rev. Patrick Mahoney
Christian Defense Coalition

Rev. Rob Schenck
National Clergy Council
Joe Scheidler
Pro-Life Action League

Troy Newman
Operation Rescue

Brandi Swindell
Generation Life
Mike McMonagle
Family Life Educational Foundation

URGENT Reply Memo
YES! You can definitely count on my support to help save Terri’s life during this critical time!

Be a voice for Terri SchiavoI can’t believe they want to starve her to death—something our society wouldn’t even do to cats or dogs! The public needs to know the truth about this case. Therefore, I’m sending the largest contribution I can make at this time to the emergency pro-life coalition known as “Voice for Terri” so you can fight for Terri in Florida this week and beyond.

I also promise to pray for Terri… to contact Governor Jeb Bush… and to forward this e-mail to everyone on my list. Here’s my tax-deductible gift in the amount of…

* Please consider sending an Emergency Gift of $35 or more so we have the necessary resources to wage this life-or-death campaign on Terri’s behalf. Remember: She can’t speak for herself, so we are the Voice for Terri.

Voice for Terri Project
Post Office Box 77168
Washington, DC 20013

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Terri Shiavo
*
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Ministries
o Christian Defense Coalition
o Family Life Educational Foundation
o National Clergy Council
o Operation Rescue
o Generation Life
o Pro-Life Action League
o Priests For Life
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More Information
o Terri's Fight

Voice for Terri Project
Post Office Box 77168
Washington, DC 20013

Voice for Terri is hosted by OptimusMedia.com
Entries (RSS) and Comments (RSS).

3,997 posted on 02/25/2005 6:45:47 PM MST by danamco
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse >

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1333205/posts?page=3985#3985

[Lars39]

304. Did you catch this?

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf

The Schindlers expected Michael to give them half of the money:
<snip>...it is clear to this court that such severence was
predicated by money and the fact that Mr. Schiavo was unwilling to
equally divide his loss of consortium award with
Mr. and Mrs. Schindler.<snip>

-----------------------------------------------------------
definition of consortium:

2. right to marital company and affection:
the right of husbands or wives to the company, affection, and help of their spouses ( archaic )

[janx]

305. No, I did not. But it's clear from looking at any timeline that

after all that Schiavo did for his wife--after all of the therapy and speech therapy and experimental therapy, BEFORE he got any money--there was a breaking point with his in-laws. And that point happened right after the malpractice money came in. He was already in debt up to his eyeballs at that point.

Thanks for pointing this out. I missed it completely.

[Erika]

320. I've never read a more disgusting post

Send $ to keep Terri alive and not one cent is going for her medical support?
These right wing extremist groups worship the dollar and they'll soak the histrionic conservatives for every cent they can.

[SW FL Dem]

306. SO they want money for legal bills but Terri is on Medicaid

and the taxpayers in FL are paying her bills. The parents must really care about Terri.

[janx]

307. Terri's parents are being used. They've been "had."

It's so horrible.

[moobu2]

310. Wasn't there an investigation into Terrisfight.org a while back?

I read they were fined some money for not filing the proper forms and documenting how much money has been raised and where it was spent but I haven't heard anything since them. That was about 1 1/2 months ago or so.

[janx]

312. Yes, there was. What happened with that? I posted news

of it. I can only assume that they got a slap on the hand and paid some fines or that they still have to pay some fines and need the money now.

[moobu2]

317. I want to know about the details

You know their website is down for some reason... http://www.terrisfight.org/

[janx]

325. It has been down a lot lately. They blame it on traffic, but

I'm not so sure.

[flyarm]

314. from clearwater here...

have any of you ever noticed for years now ..its the same exact picture that they show of teri??

its a very old picture..you are being fed propaganda!!

and realize who runs and owns most of claerwater..scientology!!

connect the dots!!

fly

[LisaL]

362. I don't think they are even allowed to take pictures of her

for legal reasons. So, that is probably all they got. Their lawyer who visited her just recently says Terri looks great.

[mordarlar]

339. Terry either FEELS or she does NOT FEEL....

To suggest her quality of life is painful to her in any way and then suggest that starvation or the fear that may go along with it is impossible, is a contradiction. I do not presume to know and basically feel it IS NOT MY BUSINESS, what she does or does not feel. But if she was HARMED, and at this point we do NOT KNOW for certain, the decision over who plans on her behalf is concerning.

The reality is no matter how each of us feel about being in a similar state, her feelings about it are the ones that count. If her husband has motives for his choice for her that are in any way deliberately self serving, over and above Terry's preferences, he should not be in charge of her case.

Those who would prefer to die in a situation like hers would not want someone saying they should be kept alive for their own self serving reasons.

Nor would people who prefer to be kept alive wish to be allowed to die for these same reasons.

If her husband has (unquestionably) caused her no harm than his decision should stand. If he has caused her harm her parents should decide for her care. It all depends on the validity of her husbands true concern for Terry. Take him and his family out of the equation and all testimony suggests she preferred to be kept on all support.

[moobu2]

342. You have no idea what your talking about

The husband didn't make the decision and the parents cant change it even if they were to wrestle control of Terri away from him with some of their false accusations.

The court decided that Terri herself would not want to remain on life support under these circumstances and ordered the husband as her guardian to remove it.

The court even set a date and time for him to remove it...1 pm on March 18, 2005.

[mordarlar]

343. Hmmm interesting....

Well first off he has REQUESTED the tube be removed. He is the one who claims she wanted this. It is on this testimony and that of close family members of his that the court decision was made. If he has harmed her than his request AND his testimony of her wishes are suspect.

False accusations? And you know this for certain how? I certainly do not. I WAS NOT THERE THAT NIGHT. Two people were and one is now unable to communicate.

The court may or may not have set a date to remove the tube on FALSE INFO. Unlike you i will reserve judgment of what is true or false pending an investigation into Terry's many injuries.

[moobu2]

344. You still dont know what your talking about

And basicly you're just repeating what you've read on terrisfight.org or some other many right to life smear websites.

Michael, did not REQUEST the tube be removed. He asked the judge to make the decision for Terri because the parents wouldn't let go of her. If they let go of her, they wouldn't have received a dime.

Then, the right to life people stepped up and the parents saw new opportunity for fame and fortune if they would just sell their daughter off to these people to use for a poster child for their political cause, which they immediately did.

Jeb Bush is just using his executive power to force an investigation for political reasons, nothing else.

Terri had Bulimia, that's what caused her current medical condition. There is no proof of any abuse other than the false accusations the parents are making, one of numerous other false accusations made by these lovely parents that have been investigated and found to be without merit.

The bone injuries are not unusual for someone who was malnurished, had agressive CPR and intinsive phisical therapy. The doctors testified to that effect in court.

You might think about getting your information from a more reliable source. Here's a good place to start.
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

You can watch the father in one of his scams on this video clip. He's using this lighting device to stimulate his daughters (Terri) brain stem, then he pretends her reactions are to his talking to her but it's obvious it all a trick.
http://hometown.aol.com/GordonWWatts/myhomepage/ConversationWithTerri.wmv

The parents are very deceptive.

[mordarlar]

395. Obviously you have an agenda. I simply said PROVE he did not harm her.

[moobu2]

399. And you are agenda free? The false alegations of abuse were brought up in

court and elsewhere over the years, and they were always found to be without merit. They've been investigated many times because the right wing websites tell people to make false allegations as a way of stopping the withdrawal of the feeding tube. It's well documented and that's why the judge refused to allow the State to be herd on those false allegations yeasterday, he knows why they were being made.

In any event, the decision the court made in deciding that Terri would not want to be maintained on life support as a vegetable (vegetable meaning she doesn't have any living higher brain tissue) was made apart from what the family or husband wanted. The ruling says that the court used testimony concerning Terri's previous oral statements as well as evidence of her personality and decision making. That decision was appealed and upheld many times.

There's very little doubt about any of this other than the right wing spreading incendiary false allegations about the husband and anyone else who stands up to them...is that unusual for them? no.

[LisaL]

358. Exactly. The same people who claim Terri suffers

living like that, then turn around and say her brain is dead, so she can not feel anything. Then, the very same people say she won't feel anything starving over a period of several weeks. So, which one is that?
Is she suffering now living like that? How can she, if she can't feel anything? Who exactly is suffering here?

[moobu2]

345. Read this from the guardian report

It basically states what the parents testified to in court about what goulish things they would be willing to do to their own daughter and also the guardian documents the parents testimony in court where they said that even if Terri herself told them she wouldn't want life support, that they would continue it anyway.

"Testimony provided by members of the Schindler family included very personal statements about their desire and intention to ensure that Theresa remain alive . . . at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open-heart surgery. Within the testimony, as part of the hypothetical presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it."

Link to the report on request.

[janx]

354. Link, please!

:hi:

[moobu2]

361. Here you go

Mr. Wolfson, the court appointed guardian, explains how Terri ended up in that condition, what that condition is, The therapy she received, the money, the Schindlers...basically all the circumstances surrounding this.

http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/wolfson's%20report.pdf

It's a .PDF and something like 40 pages but well worth reading

[Guaranteed]

357. All I can say is that I hope she truly isn't "there"

if they're actually going to do this.

These folks had better be REAL sure.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

369. Fifteen years

Do you think that a decade and a half is a long enough time for all issues to have been examined and a realistic and compassionate decision made?

It's absurd. These right-to-someone-else's-life people are shameful. How come we don't see them backing up people on Death Row?

Selective little bastards, aren't they?

[LisaL]

371. There is a woman who started talking after 20 years, after

being in a similar situation to Terri's. Her Drs. say it's very unusual, but it certainly can happen.

[moobu2]

372. That woman wasn't in the same condition Terri Schiavo is in

That other woman had a cerebral cortex and was minimally conscious already, she just couldn't speak.

Terri has no cerebral cortex so that means no thought process is possible.

It would help if you did some research on what some of the terms are here.

Cerebral cortex.
vegitative state.
brain stem.

would be a good start.

That other woman had a brain injury however there are different parts of the brain that are responsible for different aspects of our thinking and motor skills and so on.

[LisaL]

402. Actually, that woman is probably worse than Terri.

She has severe physical injuries Terri doesn't have. Her foot is severely twisted, she can not swallow. Her only responses were blinking her eyes, and nobody knew if she understood questions. I am pretty sure if Sarah was married and her husband wanted a feeding tube removed, you would be wanting the same thing done to Sarah as you want done to Terri.
Would anybody have been able to predict she would start talking after 20 years? I think not.

[moobu2]

425. You dont seem able to comprehend

That woman was not vegetative and she had a cerebral cortex, something Terri Schiavo doesn't not have. All of Terri Schiavo's higher brain died.

It would really help if you did a little research into the difference between "coma" and " persistent vegetative state" and also cerebral cortex, brain stem.

This information is easily available on the internet although I would be careful and look who's hosting the information and stay away from right wing, right to life websites that sometimes pose as legitimate information sources while all they do is post lies and scare people.

[LisaL]

430. I have done a little research, and it seems the difference is

not all that clear. PVS is often referred to as a long term coma. Sarah Scantlin was not in a coma since she was minimally aware of what was going on around her and could blink her eyes. However, Sarah didn't do much more than to blink her eyes, and nobody knew if she even understood the questions. She also has some disfiguring physical injuries Terri doesn't have. Nobody would have been able to predict that Sarah would start talking after 20 years. So, do tell me, if Sarah was married and her husband wanted her feeding tube removed, would you not argue that it would be best for Sarah to die? Considering she can't walk, she can't swallow, and she couldn't say anything for 20 years?
Well, guess what? Now that Sarah can talk, she isn't demanding her feeding tube was removed.

[moobu2]

431. It's apples and oranges.

Both women had brain injuries and that's about the end of the similarities.

Terri Schiavo's entire cerebral cortex has died and was replaced with spinal fluid. There's nothing there any more. Even the Schindlers own doctors said so in court.

Terri does have a functioning brain stem which allows her rudimentary reflexes. That's it.

Terri will never improve because the human cortex can not reconstitute itself.

This other women was minimally conscious, so she had a cerebral cortex, which is necessary for that.

All that is irrelevant anyway because it was determined that Terri herself would not want to be maintained in a cognitively brain dead state and she has that right (so far).

[OldLeftieLawyer]

374. No, that's wrong

She was in a coma. That's not what's happened to Mrs. Schiavo.

It's like comparing an appendicitis attack with acute leukemia. It doesn't work.

[LisaL]

401. No, she was not in a coma.

[moobu2]

373. That's because they are just using that term for political reasons

Of coarse they aren't "right to life" because they support Bush's military and economic policies that kill countless 1,000's, they support the death penalty etc... They're selective right to life murderers that for some reason want to force an unwanted medical treatment onto someone they never even knew.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

375. Amen, baby. Amen. n/t

[Guaranteed]

384. Maybe they're not backing up people on Death Row, but I am.

And even in fifteen years, you can't get in her head. You don't know if she's "there" or not. That's the point.

[moobu2]

386. we know enough to know that without a cerebral cortex, you not there.

[Guaranteed]

388. How do you know that?

How can you get in someone's head, whether or not they have a cerebral cortex?

What about people who've had lobotomies? Are they "not there"- at ALL?

And, if you were to walk up to someone in Terri's situation, or someone who's had a lobotomy, and chopped their head off, is that murder?

If it's not, why don't they just do that? What's the big deal?

Why are they going out of their way to let her die on her own? Why not just OD her, if she's not there? It's quicker, and a lot less painful.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

393. She's not there

Consciousness resides in the brain. The cerebral cortex. That which isn't there.

Why is it so hard for people to accept facts and reality?

The fear of death is a powerful, powerful thing.

[Chicago Democrat]

360. I think starving anyone is horrible. This case shows how utterly

impossible for anyone to make any decision about this. I don't like it! I am angry she has been used like a political football. There should be clear laws about WHO decides and these cases should be kept out of the public arena.

Everyone needs to make living wills and discuss such possibilities in advance in detail. I'm not convinced either way, because noone can prove one way or the other. All I know is that I miss my Dad and I am still very angry the way his machines were turned off. Mostly because I was not consulted.

These things should be done with great care within the family and everyone who has strong opinions either way need to SHUT UP because this sucks. What a crappy set of choices.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

376. Removing a feeding tube is not "starving."

To starve implies eating. Mrs. Schiavo is unable to eat, as we understand the process of ingesting food, and that's why she's had surgery to insert a plastic tube directly into her stomach, where a mixture of chemicals is periodically forced into her body.

Removing that feeding tube is the same as removing someone from a respirator when they're unable to breathe on their own. Mrs. Schiavo cannot take nutrients normally, as we do, in the form of meals; she's a corpse being kept alive chemically.

If you weren't consulted about your father's termination of life support, but I would guess that you were not part of the decision-making process for some valid reason.

And telling people to SHUT UP strikes me as kind of strange, when you're doing the exact opposite on a message board.

But, hey, it's only a message board.

[Chicago Democrat]

378. Attitudes like yours prove

you HAVE NO IDEA WHAT you are talking about!!

You dont know anything at all about the circumstances surrounding my father's death and I resent IN THE EXTREME this quote:

"If you weren't consulted about your father's termination of life support, but I would guess that you were not part of the decision-making process for some valid reason."


I'm highly offended, and await your apology! My father died after a horrible operation and after 21 days of being there daily I step out for like 5 hours and BAM they pull his plugs by pressuring my mother who was in no position to make a decision. A decision she later regretted. So you DONT know anything at all about it and you are not only WRONG you are cruel to say that there was some valid reason I was not a part of this horrible decision. I was out buying flowers. I was totally exhausted and because of that I wasnt there when the doctors pulled his machines even though he was completely conscious and only in need of respiration. Euthenasia goes on all the time and happens often because insurance coverage runs out or just to make the suffering end. Therefore you spoke in complete ignorance. Only someone who has actually gone through the process of pulling plugs and causing death of a loved one CAN POSSIBLY begin to understand how difficult it is. That's why I say "Shut up".

So you want to pull plugs on everyone and everybody? Welcome to the Third Reich. Lets pull the plug on everyone as soon as their hospitalization runs out. People in the midst of trauma can be pressured to do anything and what's the big hurry? A life is at stake; what's wrong with being sure you did all you can? What about the Hippocratic Oath and the 10 commandments and the Golden Rule?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

380. That's it

It's DECAF for you from now on.

No wonder they didn't consult you.

[Chicago Democrat]

381. OK now Im hurt.

FU

[OldLeftieLawyer]

391. FU?

You meant "DU."

Gotta love this place.

[puddycat]

419. are you just pretending to be a jerk?

I don't agree with the poster at all, because I think the medical community experiments with people too long as it is, and that people should be allowed to die without being tortured forever. But your response is just terrible.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

427. Gee...........................

Read his whole post, and then think over what you read from me. My responses were appropriate, within the context, and if you're of a different opinion, well, that's what makes this such a lively and interesting place.

Pity that you chose to start with namecalling, though. You do demean yourself and DU when you use that as your opening point. But, I'm sure you meant well, and didn't realize you're just embarrass yourself.

[puddycat]

434. put down your 'tude one second to try to understand

your response was terrible. Even I thought so, and I disagreed with the other guy. And darling, it was YOU who started the crap.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

435. Awwwwwwwww

You like me.

You really, really LIKE me!!

::: sigh ::::

[moobu2]

383. You aren't the only one who's had to make these decisions

and the circumstances you describe sound a little funny in that if you had had any legal standing and you objected to the medical treatment your father was or was not receiving, you could have stopped the doctors from carrying it out. The courts are always available to people who don't agree with whatever medical treatments are withheld or whatever for people who have standing (next of kin etc...)

Some people actually care about what their loved one would want, how much pain they're in and so on and have the strength to make these difficult decisions and feel threatened by people like you who want to force your views onto everyone else, which would essentially force unwanted medical treatment onto others.

If you want to be kept alive under whatever circumstances, write those wishes down and leave everyone else alone.

[Chicago Democrat]

389. No! 5 hours is too short of time to decide... They pressured her...

I'm not talking about anything LEGAL. You guys are so insensitive and way too political.

It happened way way WAY too quick. I'm telling you the doctors PRESSURED MY MOTHER TO TURN OFF HIS MACHINES ON THE VERY DAY HIS HOSPITALIZATION RAN OUT! Then they just did it. I all happened over a 5 hour period and it would have been very nice to AT LEAST sleep on it, or maybe discuss it with us kids, let us say goodbye. Blah blah blah. But they didn't. Another thing is that they fucked up. They botched a very expensive, ELECTIVE, operation. I'm not saying I'm the only one who has ever had this decision. In our families case, it was NOT HANDLED WELL. I felt like they mined my dad for alot of expensive procedures he never should have gone thru and then they just pulled the plug after their fuckup and my poor mom all alone there, I just wish I could have been there with her. I just wish I had seen him die, I was only gone for 5 hours and they just killed him.

I can say for sure noone here advocating Euthenasia Drive Thru ever had to deal with it or they wouldn't be so cavelier about it.

[moobu2]

390. I've had to deal with this issue personaly several times

It's very common today since most people die as a result of some decision to withdraw or withhold life support of some kind or another.


I'm sorry you're experience was so awful but the couple of times our family has had to make those choices, we all agreed and supported each other and it just wasn't that bad for us. We felt, and still feel that it was the decision they would have wanted us to make.

Didn't mean to sound insensitive though.

If you feel that the doctors killed your Father, you should take some legal action.

[Guaranteed]

387. It's most definitely starving her body.

Whether or not it would be starving "her" is the debatable part, depending on whether it is "her" that is there.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

392. There's a difference between "starving"

and "withholding medical treatment."

Think about it. Feeding tubes are a medical procedure, and food is an everyday thing in normal lives.

Food is a thing we have at home or in restaurants.

Feeding tubes are in hospitals or other medical facilities, including home treatment areas.

So, it's hardly "starving," while it is simply "withholding medical treatment."

Treatment, I might add, that is futile.

[Guaranteed]

413. Ahhh. I see. nt

[LisaL]

438. So, if somebody has a baby, and doesn't feed it, that's not starving

the baby, right? After all, the baby can't go to the refrigerator and get a sandwich. So, it must be perfectly fine to not feed a baby?
:eyes:

[moobu2]

440. Cant believe you cant see the difference.

Terri Schiavo is cognitively brain dead with no cerebral cortex, which pretty much means, she's a living corpse.

The Schindlers own doctors testified she had no cerebral cortex.

[Blaq Dem]

377. Didn't know she was anorexic

That's how she became the way she is in the first place.

[moobu2]

379. Your right about the eating disorder but she was Bulimic not anorexic

Terri forced herself to vomit after meals and also drank an unusual amount of liquids which caused the heart failure/cognitive brain death.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe anorexia is where the person can not eat, that they lose the interest in food altogether because of psychological reasons and poor self image etc...

Bulics, like Terri Schiavo, do eat somewhat normally but stick their finger down their throat which forces them to vomit over and over.

both conditions are slightly different but very dangerous.

This is one of many articles that discuses her Bulimia and of coarse the money everyone talks about came from a law suit where Michael sued Terri's doctors for failing to do routine tests that would have uncovered this. Bulimics never tell anyone they're sick. Family members rarely know until there's some crisis.
The lost lesson of Schiavo case: the dangers of eating disorders

[Name removed]

382. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

385. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bariztr]

442. Lies are everywhere

I was listening to one of the morning radio personalities here in the Bay Area(California), Brian Copeland on KGO, he was talking about the case and began by spouting off a bunch of the lies that have been permeated about the case.
While I was on hold, a woman got on right before me and began to say how she went to the parent's website and found out the "truth" of what was going on such as he did not have any rehabilitaion done on her, he was in it for the money and that he wanted to keep her quiet because of possible abuse allegations.
When I got on the air I began to immediately began going thru the lies and misinformation that they were both operating under. And for this I thank all of you here on DU for providing great information!

[rasputin1952]

446. I am locking this thread as it has become remarkably unweildly...

Please feel free to start another if there are new devwelopments.

Thank you for your understanding.