Tattered Flag Raising Indignation (Flag will fly until troops come home)

[truthpusher]

http://www.woai.com/news/state/story.aspx?content_id=2EA5FD88-AC10-4DFB-9B09-28E3503F585B

Tattered Flag Raising Indignation
LAST UPDATE: 2/25/2005 4:29:51 PM

SAN ANTONIO (AP) - A former Air Force medic's plan to fly the same American flag until U.S. troops return from Iraq has been criticized as the flag becomes faded and tattered.

Moses Mitchell hoisted the brand new flag outside his business center and day-care facility near Lackland Air Force Base two years ago as a tribute to the troops in Iraq.

"I knew I had some rebelliousness in my mind when I was doing this, but basically it was something to remind of the pain and agony and the death that our troops are facing over there," said Mitchell, who treated Vietnam War casualties.

The flag's condition has infuriated Vietnam War veteran Jack Long. He has contacted politicians, the police and even the FBI in a futile effort to force Mitchell to take it down.

"It's just hanging in shreds," Long said. "It breaks my heart to see that. It is so disgraceful."

complete story:
http://www.woai.com/news/state/story.aspx?content_id=2EA5FD88-AC10-4DFB-9B09-28E3503F585B

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. that's quite disrespective

I know he's got a purpose, but it's very much against proper flag etiquette. he should know better.

[truthpusher]

2. It's a symbol, the war in Iraq is 'quite disrespective', don't you think?

[IndianaGreen]

4. The real disrespect is that of keeping the troops from mustering out

after they have served. Not even in Vietnam did troops were ordered to serve more than the one combat tour.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

12. The flag didn't send troops into war.

[truthpusher]

19. I think what the man is doing has no disrespect coming from him...

...toward our country. I think it is a noble and sweet gesture he is making for the troops and their families. If someone sees what he is doing as an affront to 'America', than I think that that person is not really in tune with what the true spirit of 'America' is all about. The reason we are who we are, is because of guys like this.

[egoprofit]

98. america disrespects human rights and common sense..

so who gives a fuck? fly the flag until it falls apart just like bush's plans to "liberate" iraq.

[oneighty]

6. How about

The torn tattered water drenched sun bleached flags flown willy nilly from cars trucks and SUVs. And the flags unlighted flying day and night faded and tattered from flag poles and front porches all over America.

Flag respect? No way.

Who gives a shit anymore?

Not me.

180---Veteran

[Cobalt Violet]

11. You can find a flag like that flying at my local Wal-Mart. n/t

[Javaman]

52. Metaphor for the current situation...

Look at them mess over in Iraq, is that clean and crisp? Or worn, faded and tattered?

Folks, face it, the American flag is a symbol but not the one you think. This administration has effectively taken what was once a symbol of freedom and have commercialized it into a very bizarre pop icon.

Once upon a time the flag was a symbol that meant something to me, something that was good, something that brought hope, something that said, yes, we care. But that is long gone and replaced by corporate greed and advertising gimmick that makes people proud of something they can no longer define in basic terms.

When I see people, Americans, removed and jailed without charges, held for long periods of time with out a lawyer, tried without a jury of their pears, we are effectively reliving the reasons why our founding fathers rebelled.

We live the concept of a free life, but how free are we? Those same freedoms and liberties that were fought so hard for by the generations before us, are being taken away one piece at time.

When one looks at the grand canyon, you see the effect erosion has over millions of years, but if you stood there millions of years ago would you have imagined the canyon as it is today? Erosion is slow, deliberate, patient and before you know it you are at the bottom of a hole wondering, "how did I get here?"

So before any of you condemn this guy for keeping up his old tattered flag, take a good look around you, a really good look, and ask yourself, is this the America I want? Is the the America that a brand new flag represents?

[Mr_Spock]

32. Absolutely!!!

Or those morons putting dozens all over highway bridges - talk about disrespecting the flag. These people are the same morons who would have an issue with this guys flag. I've never seen such disrespect for the flag until this latest spate of "uber" patriotism. Even the moron shrub signed his autograph on a flag for one of his "fans". What a bunch of disrespectful ass holes.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

36. I still give a shit.

Sorry, but that's how I feel.

[Mad_Dem_X]

48. I've seen flags on cars and trucks

owned by so-called patriotic people that were in horrible shape. That to me is extremely disrespectful.

[karlrschneider]

7. Tell it to the thousands of warmongering SUV drivers with tattered flags

hanging on their antennas.
:grr:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. I do.

[MetaTrope]

9. You want disrespective?

How about Lauren Bush dragging a flag around a parking lot?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

14. My morals are not tailored to suit my agenda.

I do not approve of any person of any party affiliation flying a tattered flag.

[cmd]

16. My flag is fading and getting tattered.

I'm too old to go climbing ladders when it's cold and damp. The flag will fly until Memorial Day just like it does every other year. Then a new one will go up. Deal with it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

20. That's fine. Just don't claim to be patriotic.

[arwalden]

41. You're The New Go-To Authority On Patriotism And Who's Patriotic?

Suggesting that someone is someone "unpatriotic" based on how they choose to send their message is a damned arrogant thing for anyone to say.

Do you also support a constitutional amendment prohibiting flag burning?

It's a piece of cloth. Nothing more.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

44. I actually don't support an anti-flag burning amendment.

You can express yourself as you see fit. But you're failing to understand that there is an OFFICIAL flag etiquette. If you claim to respect the flag and the country it represents, you should be following the rules of flag etiquette. Period. It's really not up for discussion.

If you want to make a political statement by desacrating the flag, go ahead. But you take the consequences along with it.

[arwalden]

45. I Don't Understand People With A Flag Fetish

>> If you want to make a political statement by desacrating the flag, go ahead. But you take the consequences along with it. <<

I hardly think that having to listen to the complaints of the flag worshipers could be seriously described as having to deal with any serious "consequences".

These things are not ILLEGAL, so you must have had some other "consequences" in mind? What would those be? Being added to a federal watch-list because of un-American activities?, or being snubbed by locals?, harassment?, or vigilantism? --- Other than these things, I can't imagine what "consequences" could effectively motivate someone to treat or fly the flag in a manner that meets with your approval.


>> But you're failing to understand that there is an OFFICIAL flag etiquette. <<

No. I don't fail to understand that. Did I miss the part where "OFFICIAL flag etiquette" became law?. (Perhaps for military bases, government buildings, federal property, etc., the OFFICIAL flag etiquette rules might be a strictly enforced policy for government workers and military personnel... but that's not really what we're talking about here.)


>> If you claim to respect the flag and the country it represents, you should be following the rules of flag etiquette. <<

That is false! Anyone who says such things are trying to project and impose THEIR VALUES upon someone else. That's a very arrogant thing to do.

Although flying a tattered flag might not be something that you would personally choose to do, the fact remains that you cannot dictate to me. You cannot speak for me.

Why should you get to decide what a patriotic person can or can not do? Whose definition of patriotism are you using? You are not a mind-reader, so how can you tell that someone isn't patriotic?

Patriotism and flag-worshiping are not synonymous. Nor is flag-worshiping a condition of patriotism. Again... it's just a piece of colored cloth. The flag is not the country itself... it's not the Declaration of Independence, it's not the Constitution, it's not the Bill of Rights.


>> Period. It's really not up for discussion. <<

Parental authoritarianism, eh? Oooo, I guess you told me. "Because I said so! Period! End of discussion! Go to your room!" :eyes:

Like I asked earlier... are you the ultimate authority on this? Who left you in charge? What gives you the authority to judge who is or who isn't patriotic?

-- Allen

edit: typo/clarity

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

49. let me ask you something.

Do you follow professional rules of etiquette at work? How about at a formal dinner? At a funeral?

I'm not the arbiter of the rules of etiquette and I never claimed to be. I didn't create them, and I don't enforce them. However, they exist for a very specific reason. You follow rules of etiquette for business or formal occasions for the same reason you should follow flag etiquette - because it means a whole lot to other people. If you don't follow any of those rules of etiquette, you look like a complete jerk. THAT is the consequence of which I speak. I feel jerks like George Bush that sign the flag are hypocritical, unpatriotic assholes for tarnishing one of the few symbols we have left that reminds us of a day when we weren't the bane of the world. So, in order not to be hypocritical myself, I must also chastise those who believe as I do and disrespect the flag. I do not change my beliefs when it is convenient for me to do so.

Now, the constitution, of course, permits you to be an asshole, so if you want to do it, you go right ahead. No, the consequences aren't anything specific, but people will look down upon you for doing it, no matter what your "purpose" is for doing it. Quite frankly, it's a rather poor political statement. A casual observer has no idea why the person is desacrating the flag - only that it is being desacrated. It tells me that person has a poor view of our country. I happen to love our country, no matter what those fucking jackass conservatives try to do to it. The biggest reason I'm a Democrat is because I can't stand the idea that the ultra-conservative jackasses have destroyed everything that we have stood and fought for.

But the flag didn't do commit those atrocities. Forgive me for not wanting every symbol of our country to be tattered and disheveled. Forgive me for not appreciating that people that are actively ruining one of the few reminders we have left of days when our country stood for something honorable. Forgive me if I use a "one-size-fits-all" philosophy on the matter.

A lot of us here at DU forget the things that used to be important to us because the Republicans have so tainted everything. I'd like to fight to keep the flag from being a GOP symbol, rather than a United States symbol. So forgive me if it pisses me off that someone would disrespect the flag, especially when that person believes as I do, because I'd like to believe that it's not the country itself that deserves to be shredded, but only the jerks in charge of it.

[cmd]

55. A flag that is being desecrated is the one that is never flown

I reject your argument. Doing nothing is much worse than proudly displaying what I can afford to display. Not everyone can afford a spanking new flag. It is not the flag itself that is important, but the way you feel toward that flag. I'm just as old and tired as my flag. I will never be fresh and new again, but I refuse to be set aside because I don't fit the etiquette mold.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

61. That makes no sense at all.

By your standard, having a child and not being able to feed or care for it is better than not having a child at all. Doing nothing says nothing in particular. Flying a flag is not an action that is necessary. It is optional, and just like driving or owning a pet, there are responsibilities that come with your choice to take the action.

A new flag, one that has been flown over the Capitol, can be purchased for about $25 through your Congressman. And if you're not capable of taking the flag down, you could ask the assistance of your family, friends, or neighbors. Or if you just keep track of when storms are coming, just bring it inside and leave it there for a while so you don't have to be constantly out on a ladder.

If you cannot treat the flag with respect and dignity it deserves, you don't have to fly one. There are many other ways you can express yourself. Perhaps fly an unofficial flag instead. Even if you're insistant on flying an official flag, you can find options that suit your capabilities while still observing proper etiquette.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion, there's no excuse to fly a tattered flag. That's just how I see it.

[Orsino]

56. I don't let my neighbors tell me...

...what symbols to display on my own property.

They don't get to tell me not to put up a BUCK FUSH poster, and they wouldn't persuade me to take down a tattered flag--if I really wanted one. If I wanted to hang a crucifix upside-down, well, that's still my right.

I don't try to have their Confederate banners removed, or their "Choose Life" bumper stickers. It's not my business.

Infringements on free speech for the comfort and convenience of busybodies belie the liberties I think the flag should stand for.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

57. I didn't say I agreed with Long's actions.

And I don't agree with people interfering. Like I said, it's your right. I think I was pretty straightforward on that point.

[Orsino]

59. Didn't say you did.

I support your right to be offended by a tattered flag. If you didn't feel strongly enough about it to start harrassing police and FBI officials, that speaks well for your sanity. I therefore suspect that you revere what you think the flag symbolizes more than the piece of cloth--as you should, in my opinion.

The truly American way for Long to register his disapproval, IMO, would be for him to fly his own flag, adhering to all traditional points of etiquette, and attempt to shame his neighbor into upgrading.

It would at least be good for the Chinese companies that make our flags.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

62. I agree, however,

if you buy flags through your Congressman, you can guarantee that your flag is United States made and flown over the Capitol.

[pokercat999]

77. Would that also be a flag "made in China"?

What about flying my flag upsidedown to show my distress for the US?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

78. Congressional flags are made in America only

And yes, and upside down flag is against flag etiquette as well.

[arwalden]

66. You Seem Overwrought, Vash.

>> Do you follow professional rules of etiquette at work? How about at a formal dinner? At a funeral? <<

I don't see the connection between those things and flag worshiping.

>> I'm not the arbiter of the rules of etiquette and I never claimed to be. I didn't create them, and I don't enforce them. <<

But that doesn't stop you from declaring someone as being UNpatriotic, eh?


>> However, they exist for a very specific reason. You follow rules of etiquette for business or formal occasions for the same reason you should follow flag etiquette - because it means a whole lot to other people. <<

I disagree with the analogy you're trying to make. --- You seem to be suggestiong that consideration of the opinions of others (who have delicate temperaments) when it comes to OFFICIAL flag etiquette take priority over someone else's desire to make a political statement? -- Wow.


>> If you don't follow any of those rules of etiquette, you look like a complete jerk. THAT is the consequence of which I speak. <<

Explain to me again why I should care what flag worshipers think.


>> I feel jerks like George Bush that sign the flag are hypocritical, unpatriotic assholes for tarnishing one of the few symbols we have left that reminds us of a day when we weren't the bane of the world. <<

Yes, that was a peculiar thing for him to do.


>> So, in order not to be hypocritical myself, I must also chastise those who believe as I do and disrespect the flag. I do not change my beliefs when it is convenient for me to do so. <<

I don't think it's possible for someone to believe as you do AND disrespect the flag. And I don't believe anyone has suggested that you change your beliefs.

But for you to call someone "unpatriotic" for not sharing your beliefs is a bit... well... why not just go ahead cover ALL the bases by calling them "Godless Communists" too.


>> Now, the constitution, of course, permits you to be an asshole, so if you want to do it, you go right ahead. <<

Good grief :eyes:


>> No, the consequences aren't anything specific, but people will look down upon you for doing it, no matter what your "purpose" is for doing it. <<

Again... why should I care what flag-worshipers think? (I note that you put the word "purpose" in quotation marks to suggest irony or to suggest the word' opposite meaning. I get it... you think that such actions or statements have NO purpose, eh? -- That's real "nice" of you.)


>> Quite frankly, it's a rather poor political statement. A casual observer has no idea why the person is desacrating the flag - only that it is being desacrated. <<

But the political statement someone is making whenever they "desacrate" the flag is meaningful to the person who's making it.

So we should all tailor our political statements so that they are understood by the lowest common denominator... or a "casual observer"? :shrug:


>> It tells me that person has a poor view of our country. <<

Wow! What an astounding conclusion to make. Are you a mind-reader?

I guess that some people will always see the worst in others no matter WHAT. It's a pretty damned pathetic situation when someone automatically jumps to the worst possible conclusion about others, and makes the worst assumptions about their motivations, and judges them so harshly based on a complete lack of information.


>> I happen to love our country, no matter what those fucking jackass conservatives try to do to it. <<

Okay.


>> The biggest reason I'm a Democrat is because I can't stand the idea that the ultra-conservative jackasses have destroyed everything that we have stood and fought for. <<

Okay.


>> But the flag didn't do commit those atrocities. <<

By the same token... the flag isn't the guarantor or the giver of the things that you still value in our country. It's just a flag. Nothing more. It's not a magical talisman or golden fleece.


>> Forgive me for not wanting every symbol of our country to be tattered and disheveled. Forgive me for not appreciating that people that are actively ruining one of the few reminders we have left of days when our country stood for something honorable.

But it's theirs to ruin... not yours.


>> Forgive me if I use a "one-size-fits-all" philosophy on the matter. <<

That certainly makes it easier for you to judge people. With a "one-size-fits-all" philosophy, you don't have to actually think about why someone might do something, or what their motivation is. So naturally, they are UNpatriotic...UN-American.


>> A lot of us here at DU forget the things that used to be important to us because the Republicans have so tainted everything. I'd like to fight to keep the flag from being a GOP symbol, rather than a United States symbol. <<

I wasn't aware that it had become a GOP symbol. I think they are doing a good job of hiding behind the flag. I also think that they are using the flag as a diversion. People see the flag and are "reminded" of the days when our country stood for something honorable... so they get that warm-fuzzy feeling and they find it easier to overlook what our country has become.

(Pay no attention to that man hiding behind the flag. Just worship and adore the flag itself. The great and powerful Oz has spoken!)

Fact is, that the flag is not only a symbol for the ideals of what America ought to be, but it's also a symbol of the country's government. That's inescapable. And right now the Republicans are in charge. Our country is corrupt and morally bankrupt. And, therefore, our flag is a symbol for our corrupt and illegitimate government.

Pisser, huh?


>> So forgive me if it pisses me off that someone would disrespect the flag, especially when that person believes as I do, <<

That you would take it so personally is such a peculiar thing. Why should you become so overwrought and emotional? Do you think the flag has feelings? Do you fear that when a flag is mutilated, it has an actual effect on our country? :shrug:

Of course I know that you don't actually believe the flag is an animate object... but I asked anyway because that's what your emotional responses suggest.


>> because I'd like to believe that it's not the country itself that deserves to be shredded, <<

But that's just it... shredding the flag is NOT THE SAME THING as shredding the country. The flag is a flag. The country is a country. "Flag" does not equal "country". We don't live in the flag. It's just a symbol.


>> but only the jerks in charge of it. <<

Well at least we can agree on ONE thing today.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

73. You seem to care far too little, arwalden.

I don't see the connection between those things and flag worshiping.

They are all forms of etiquette. Not a hard connection to make. Further, no one is "worshipping" anything here. Since when are simple measures of respect tantamount to worship?

But that doesn't stop you from declaring someone as being UNpatriotic, eh?

It's a rather simple concept, really. There are a very simple set of rules. If you don't follow the simple rules, you're not being respectful to the flag. If you're not being respectful of the flag, you're not being respectful of what it represents. That's not a hard logical pattern to follow. If you take issue with that set of rules, you can feel free to try and change them or eradicate them if you wish. But being that I'm not the one who made the rules, I'm not the arbiter. I happen to agree with the rules.

I disagree with the analogy you're trying to make. --- So consideration of the opinions of others who have delicate temperaments when it comes to OFFICIAL flag etiquette take priority over someone else's desire to make a political statement? -- Wow.

Again, you can do whatever you want. I'm not stopping you. I'm not asking for priority over you, and if you could point out just where I did, I'd appreciate that. Just don't ask me to respect your form of political expression.

I get it... you think that such actions or statements have NO purpose, eh? -- That's real "nice" of you.

But the political statement someone is making whenever they "desacrate" the flag is meaningful to the person who's making it.

So we should all tailor our political statements so that they are understood by the lowest common denominator... or a "casual observer"? :shrug:
--snip---
Wow! What an astounding conclusion to make. Are you a mind-reader?

Actually, you're EXPECTING me to be a mind reader, unless you really expect me to knock on your door and ask you why you're disrespecting your flag. Is there a particular reason why I should assume there's a political statement involved and not just laziness? It's a pretty poor political statement if it requires people to not only give you the benefit of the doubt, but to also stop everything they're doing, seek you out, and ask for an explanation of it. The message really doesn't get across, does it? That's the reason why "purpose" is in quotes. If the message isn't getting across, the message becomes irrelevant. I wasn't being ironical and i wasn't making a pithy comment at all. However, now you can understand how easy it is for someone to misunderstand a statement when you're not explicit in how you send it, no?

By the same token... the flag isn't the guarantor or the giver of the things that you still value in our country. It's just a flag. Nothing more. It's not a magical talisman or golden fleece.

No, it's NOT "just a flag". That's the problem here. You completely lack historical perspective on what flags mean if you think a flag is nothing more than a piece of cloth. Do yourself a favor and read up on some ancient history.

But it's theirs to ruin... not yours.

Really? This isn't my country anymore? I should leave now? Are you making plans to leave?

That certainly makes it easier for you to judge people. With a "one-size-fits-all" philosophy, you don't have to actually think about why someone might do something, or what their motivation is. So naturally, they are UNpatriotic...UN-American.

Again, I'm not a mind reader. I don't have the time to seek out every person who flies a tattered flag and ask them why they do it. And I'm not going to make exceptions for some people who disrespect the flag when it's politically convenient for me to do so. It has nothing to do with thinking, it has to do with me not being a hypocrite.

Pisser, huh?

Yeah, it is a pisser. But that doesn't mean you just give up and let people do whatever the fuck they want.

That you would take it so personally is such a peculiar thing. Why should you become so overwrought and emotional? Do you think the flag has feelings? Do you fear that when a flag is mutilated, it has an actual effect on our country? :shrug:

Of course I know that you don't actually believe the flag is an animate object... but I asked anyway because that's what your emotional responses suggest.

I'm actually not all that emotional about the flag itself. I'm emotional about the blatant hypocrisy of people. People seem to think it's fine to say "I love my country, so I'm going to destroy/abuse/exegesize the thing that symbolizes it". Yeah, that makes a lot of sense... :eyes:

It's just a symbol.

You vastly underestimate the power of symbolism, and that seems to account for your apathy towards the flag.

[arwalden]

81. Well...

You seem to care far too little, arwalden."

...at least I'm not obsessed with the flag.

ME: I don't see the connection between those things and flag worshiping.
YOU: They are all forms of etiquette. Not a hard connection to make.

Perhaps not for you... but they are disjointed.

Further, no one is "worshipping" anything here.

Oh please... of course they are. (If not "worshiping", then maybe "idolizing" would be a better word to describe the flag-fetish that many folks seem to have.)

Since when are simple measures of respect tantamount to worship?

When you try to judge people's by declaring them to be UN-patriotic. When you try to silence someone's ability to express their displeasure with our government or the war (or whatever) by declaring them as being UN-patriotic. --- Frankly it sounds VERY patriotic to me.

It's a rather simple concept, really. There are a very simple set of rules. If you don't follow the simple rules, you're not being respectful to the flag.

The flag doesn't care. Why should you?

If you're not being respectful of the flag, you're not being respectful of what it represents.

The flag represents MORE than "freedom, liberty, and justice". It also represents our corrupt government. It represents American greed, American arrogance, American chauvinism. This may come as a shock to you... but you don't get the luxury of defining what the flag means to everyone.

The flag means many different things to many different people. You can't dictate what it represents to you as being the ONLY things that it represents. That's a fact. Deal with it.

That's not a hard logical pattern to follow. If you take issue with that set of rules, you can feel free to try and change them or eradicate them if you wish.

You forgot to mention... we can just ignore them. They don't TRUMP everything.

But being that I'm not the one who made the rules, I'm not the arbiter. I happen to agree with the rules.

You forgot to mention... you use them to judge people.

Again, you can do whatever you want.

Yes I can. Yes he can.

I'm not stopping you.

That's true.

I'm not asking for priority over you,

Yes you are. By calling someone unpatriotic, you are looking down your nose at them. Their views are worthless. You're declaring yourself superior to them because you are "offended" at how they choose to show displeasure with their government or with a war.

Isn't that the whole purpose of calling them UN-patriotic... you want to invalidate them.

Actually, you're EXPECTING me to be a mind reader, unless you really expect me to knock on your door and ask you why you're disrespecting your flag.

Why should you care so much about what someone ELSE does? If it's not apparent, then ask. Or don't... just carry on and mind your own fucking business.

Is there a particular reason why I should assume there's a political statement involved and not just laziness?

Why should you assume anything? What gives you the right to assume that a lazy person (or a disabled person, or a poor person) is UN-patriotic? Maybe they're just lazy (or can't get out, or can't afford a new flag). When did those things become a requisite for patriotism? Who decided? -- YOU?

It's a pretty poor political statement if it requires people to not only give you the benefit of the doubt, but to also stop everything they're doing, seek you out, and ask for an explanation of it. The message really doesn't get across, does it?

Oh, I see. What you said was "poor". --- But what you meant was that it's not an EFFECTIVE political statement because doesn't tell the whole story and it doesn't convey the background and details of what prompted them to feel the way they do and demonstrate those feelings in such a manner.

That's the reason why "purpose" is in quotes. If the message isn't getting across, the message becomes irrelevant.

That would be THEIR problem... not yours, right? Is their (apparent) inability to (apparently) convey their meaning a valid reason to assume they are UN-patriotic?

I wasn't being ironical and i wasn't making a pithy comment at all. However, now you can understand how easy it is for someone to misunderstand a statement when you're not explicit in how you send it, no?

Again... that's THEIR problem, and it doesn't make them any less patriotic.

ME: By the same token... the flag isn't the guarantor or the giver of the things that you still value in our country. It's just a flag. Nothing more. It's not a magical talisman or golden fleece.
YOU: No, it's NOT "just a flag". That's the problem here. You completely lack historical perspective on what flags mean if you think a flag is nothing more than a piece of cloth. Do yourself a favor and read up on some ancient history.

Oh brother! :eyes:

ME: But it's theirs to ruin... not yours.
YOU: Really? This isn't my country anymore? I should leave now? Are you making plans to leave?

Oh, stop being so silly... It's their *flag* to ruin.. unless they stole it, then it's their personal property to do with and display as they see fit. Not yours. --- Wow... that's a perfect example of what I was talking about. You thought that the FLAG was the COUNTRY.

Again, I'm not a mind reader. I don't have the time to seek out every person who flies a tattered flag and ask them why they do it.

It's just easier to assume the worst of everyone, eh? Frequently people do that to make themselves feel more important. Why do *you* do that?

And I'm not going to make exceptions for some people who disrespect the flag when it's politically convenient for me to do so.

Those sound like the words of someone who wants to be the patriotic police.

It has nothing to do with thinking,

Obviously! :eyes:

it has to do with me not being a hypocrite.

So you say. But it looks more like someone who takes the flag WAY too seriously and who cannot accept that it's a symbol for MORE than just an idealistic America.

Yeah, it is a pisser. But that doesn't mean you just give up and let people do whatever the fuck they want.

YEAH! Free-speech be damned! Eh? :eyes:

I'm actually not all that emotional about the flag itself.

LOL! Good one! :silly: Your previous words indicate otherwise.

I'm emotional about the blatant hypocrisy of people. People seem to think it's fine to say "I love my country, so I'm going to destroy/abuse/exegesize the thing that symbolizes it". Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

That's not hypocrisy. You're just name-calling because you don't like what they are doing. (Look what they're doing to the flag. That's not proper etiquette. They're un-patriotic! Hang the treasonous bastards!)

ME: It's just a symbol.
YOU: You vastly underestimate the power of symbolism, and that seems to account for your apathy towards the flag.

No... I do not. That's why I think it's important to allow people these forms of expression without labeling them as being UN-patriotic or suggesting that they are un-American or that they love their country any less.

If symbolism weren't important, then whenever they chose to "desacrate" the flag wouldn't be as effective. That's the whole point.

I find it amusing that you repeatedly claim that you don't want to take away their "right" to do so, and that you oppose a constitutional amendment against desecrating the flag... but based on how you judge others, I can't imagine that you'd have any problem with such a law or amendment.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

85. You flat out don't get it.

I find it amusing that you repeatedly claim that you don't want to take away their "right" to do so, and that you oppose a constitutional amendment against desecrating the flag... but based on how you judge others, I can't imagine that you'd have any problem with such a law or amendment.

You seem to incorrectly equate the concept of free speech with the notion that I have to agree with everything everyone has to say. The only one who seems to be intent on limiting freedoms here is you. You seem to think I'm not allowed to use my judgement to call someone unpatriotic. I am quite entitled to my own opinion, thank you very much. You can agree or disagree with it as you wish. I'm quite certain I'm not the only one who shares my opinion.

Those sound like the words of someone who wants to be the patriotic police.

I'll note I'm not the one who's resorted to name calling even once in this discussion, yet you have on several occasions. Your arrogant and childish tone is quite unnecessary and not appreciated. It's a subject I'd love to have a frank discussion on, but you've repeatedly put words into my mouth, resorted to name calling, and have been completely closed minded on the subject. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[arwalden]

94. Here Is Your Reply, Vash.

"You flat out don't get it."

Actually... I do get it, *and* I disagree with you. (Do you honestly believe only way someone could disagree with you is if they "don't-get-it"??! Good grief.)

You seem to incorrectly equate the concept of free speech with the notion that I have to agree with everything everyone has to say.

No, that is incorrect. I've said nothing about you having to agree with anyone.

The only one who seems to be intent on limiting freedoms here is you.

That's also incorrect.

You seem to think I'm not allowed to use my judgement to call someone unpatriotic.

That's also incorrect. --- You can use your "judgement"... but that would be exercising poor judgment and it would be very unfair of you.

I am quite entitled to my own opinion, thank you very much.

Certainly... you're entitled to whatever opinion you desire. No matter how unfair or arrogant those opinions are, you're certainly entitled to them. If someone's got to have them, it might as well be you.

You can agree or disagree with it as you wish.

And you can look down your nose at anyone you wish. You can name-call and accuse someone of being unpatriotic all you want. But that's a damned peculiar thing to do, and you're not likely to persuade them by accusing them of being unpatriotic.

I'm quite certain I'm not the only one who shares my opinion.

Yeah... That's pretty frightening.

I'll note I'm not the one who's resorted to name calling even once in this discussion, yet you have on several occasions.

That is not true. I have not called you any names... but you name-call and make baseless accusations about someone being "unpatriotic".

Your arrogant and childish tone is quite unnecessary and not appreciated.

I think you just don't like it when someone disagrees with you and DARES to say so. "Period! End of discussion!" (Right?) :eyes:

It's a subject I'd love to have a frank discussion on,

... except when someone disagrees with you?

but you've repeatedly put words into my mouth,

It is not my problem if your words are vague. You have every opportunity to clarify yourself (or change your position) when you become aware that someone has misunderstood you (or called you on something.)

resorted to name calling,

That is untrue.

and have been completely closed minded on the subject.

So you're being principled... and I'm being stubborn and "closed-minded"? I get it. :eyes:

So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

BOTTOM LINE: No matter how you try to twist the truth or deny the obvious... the fact is that THE FLAG MEANS *DIFFERENT* THINGS TO *DIFFERENT* PEOPLE. You don't get to dictate what the flag means to everyone. When someone sees the flag as being a symbol of our corrupt government and "desacrates" it because of the symbolism HE attaches to it... you are in NO legitimate position to call him unpatriotic.

[Orsino]

86. There are many ways to show respect for the flag...

...and the word "official" fails to impress me in this context (appeals to authority should always be suspect). Someone else's opinions about how their nation's flag should be treated are just, well, opinions.

If one reveres certain ideals that the flag may represent, and feels those ideals are under attack, the flag is a convenient symbol for making that statement--just as eagles and bears were commonly used to represent the US and the USSR in political cartoons.

If one really wants to make certain rules official, one should set about passing laws to that effect. Until there's legal force behind those rules, they are just recommendations, and about as authoritative as any other helpful pamphlet coming out of Pueblo, Colorado.

I recognize that emotions may run high where the flag is concerned. That, in my opinion, is why all forms of non-violent political speech should be protected. Until some sort of concrete harm can be demonstrated that results from an "incorrect" display of the flag, it's political speech that falls squarely under the First Amendment's umbrella.

It would have been more polite for Long to have protected his neighbors' panties from becoming bunched, but the neighbor should learn a bit of courtesy himself. It is possible to ignore a distasteful display without wasting the time of the police and the FBI.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

89. see this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1266590&mesg_id=1271271&page=

[Orsino]

90. Why? n/t

[cmd]

47. I DO claim to be patriotic

I am patriotic enough to weekly stand for hours in freezing temperatures to tell others that America is wrong when it rushes into war with Iraq. I am patriotic enough to buy and gather care packages for the soldiers that have been sent against my will to Iraq. I am patriotic enough to march against the president when he comes to town. I am patriotic enought when I volunteer for the Kerry campaign for four hours almost every day for seven before the election. I am patriotic enough to fly the American flag for as many years as I can remember - not just during a war, not just on holidays.

I can look out the window and see the flag right now flying thirty feet in the air over our arbor. I'm glad to see, faded and with the ends beginning to frey, it because it gives me hope. Just what is wrong with being patriotic?

[lastliberalintexas]

50. You're actually the true patriot

Questioning our government, holding our elected officials' feet to the fire and being active and engaged are the highest forms of citizenry. Don't worry about someone who simply wants to worship a symbol of patriotism (some would say nationalistic and jingoistic in these times) rather than the true partiot.

[cmd]

51. Thank you, last lib

I will not let the right wing have everything they want. That is one of the reasons I will not remove that flag. It doesn't belong to just one party.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

63. Can you not both respect the flag AND take all the actions you mention?

Maybe I'm a miracle worker, but I manage to accomplish both.

[cmd]

76. I do repect the flag

I don't just worship it only when it is fresh and new.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

79. Again, who's worshipping?

Your word, not mine. Since when are a few simple gestures of respect deemed "worship"?

[Orsino]

87. For whom are the gestures intended? n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

88. So you're telling me that if I call someone "sir" or "ma'am",

that's worship?

That's essentially what you're saying, that a simple show of respect is tantamount to worship.

[Orsino]

91. Did you reply to the wrong post?

I asked you a question, and did not accuse you of using "sir" or "ma'am" as prayers.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

92. No, I answered the right question.

I just skipped the condescending part of it and proceded to the heart of the issue.

[Orsino]

93. Which?

Is the heart of the issue the use of the words "sir" and "ma'am," or were you trying to make a point about flag etiquette?

My question still stands: for whom do you believe the exercise of flag etiquette is intended? I don't see anything condescending about that; are you sure you were responding to something I posted?

[SammyWinstonJack]

64. How arrogant.

Who died and made you the defining authority of patriotism?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

65. See this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1266590&mesg_id=1271114&page=

[chickenscratching]

69. again, seriously

"...because it means a whole lot to other people. If you don't follow any of those rules of etiquette, you look like a complete jerk."

well fine, if people think you're a jerk, that's their agenda. as long as you know what you stand for, that's what's important. at least to me it is. people can think what they want of me, and when i'm on my deathbed i'm not going to think about all the people i offended at formal dinners or funerals or whathaveyou, i'm going to think about what my life meant to me and what i stood for. arrogant? maybe, but you can't live your life in fear of offending people, people have the choice to be offended and I don't make that choice for them.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

74. This line doesn't make any sense:

well fine, if people think you're a jerk, that's their agenda. as long as you know what you stand for, that's what's important. at least to me it is.

If the only thing that's important is that "you know what you stand for", what's the purpose behind making a public gesture?

[chickenscratching]

75. public gesture, ie displaying a flag? n/t

[arwalden]

25. Exactly How Does Someone Flying A Tattered Flag...

... interfere with your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

33. It doesn't. I'm just not going to be a hypocrite about it.

I don't care whom the offender is - I do not approve of disrespecting the flag - period.

[chickenscratching]

60. flag etiquette

when you get down to it, it's about it's symbolism versus it's materialism right? it's just a piece of cloth, and lest i remind everybody, that flag was probably sewn somewhere in china, not by good ol' betsy ross. if that even makes a difference. flag etiquette? i understand that there are social norms for everything, but why should one be ashamed to keep something up that's tattered and worn? it's about liberty, freedom, democracy everything...it's not about how many more flags I can display than my neighbors. it's about establishing what that flag means, and who gives a shit if it's worn and tattered? it's a piece of fucking cloth, but whose symbology lives on in our hearts, regardless of how dirty it is, regardless of how many people think that a gazillion flags on their brand new hummer means that theyre more patriotic than everyone else, the meaning by the flag will be upheld. why should it be such a problem to care more for the essence of something rather than its outward appearence? regardless, think what you want and do what you will.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

68. Who said anything about number and frequency of flag flying?

Personally, I only fly a flag on special occassions. I don't own more than two, nor do I want to. And neither flag was made in China. Further, I absolutely loathe anyone who claims to be patriotic simply because they fly a million flags off. I will never forgive the Republican party for tainting the very meaning of the American flag, distorting it to symbolize the very antithesis of its purpose.

I'm not saying anything about proving how patriotic you are or how the flag means more than the ideals it symbolizes. If you read any of my above statements, you'd realize that in fact I'm arguing that disrepecting the flag is disrespecting the very values of "liberty, freedom, democracy everything" you claim are most important. A symbol is an avatar - a physical representation of a intangible idea. So disrespecting that avatar is disrespecting those ideas.

The special care and treatment of the flag is also a symbolic gesture. It symbolizes the care and value we place on "liberty, freedom, democracy everything".

[chickenscratching]

70. yes, i do claim those values are important

but my treatment of a flag, doesn't reflect my respect i have for the flag. perhaps to some it does. i guess if i flew a tattered flag and someone believed that i was dishonoring what america stands for, then they may.
we can agree to disagree, i see where you're coming from. and that's important.

[springhill]

30. I think the world you are looking for is....

disrespectful. I have never heard desrespective before. Not trying to be critical, just thought I would point it out.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

35. No shit, really? And it's a word, not a world.

[Toucano]

23. With all due respect...

"disrespective" isn't a word.

You would say it's "disrespectful".

That's not a criticism of you or your view, just a minor correction.

[ashling]

28. And while you are at it,

I believe you mean "with" all due respect, not "will" all due respect. :)

correct me if I am wrong.

[Toucano]

31. Thank you.

You're sharp!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

34. It's a typo that didn't merit more than a line.

[GiovanniC]

96. Look, If You're Going to Be Disrespective of the English Language

Then you obviously hate babies and puppies.

It's just a matter of simple respect that you learn the correct usage of the English language, and if you cannot take the time to use it correctly, then maybe you should just stop speaking. Since I am the authority on the English language, and you are being disrespective of it, I thought I should tell you that it's just fine if you want to slaughter the language, but you should prepare for the consequences of that action. And those consequences include me telling you that you're disrespective, you baby- and puppy-hater.

[Damien]

100. lol

damn babies and puppies.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

102. LOL

sarcastic ass. :-)

[Emboldened Chimp]

40. Absolutely...as a member of the Air Force he should know better...

...when your flag is worn and tattered you burn it. Never fly a faded flag.

[GiovanniC]

97. As a Member of the Air Force He's Probably Aware

That the freedom of expression that flag represents trumps any arbitrary code for flag-flying, even if that expression involves the flag itself, and even "disrespects" it.

[Renew Deal]

67. You are technically correct.

It is poor flag etiquette. I don't understand how you can argue with that.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

82. Apparently, a lot of people can argue with that...

It's quite distressing.

[chickenscratching]

99. my ammendment...

ok, after a bit of research (which i should have done earlier), i have ammended my take on this whole situation. i guess what i want to say is that on a personal level i can understand why Moses Mitchell want to keep his flag flying though it is becoming tattered and worn--basically i can appreciate the symbology of it. however, according to the flag code, it is incorrect, and by this codes rules/regulations it is a disservice to fly a flag that has become worn and tattered and should be disposed of, preferably by burning.
im very glad that this thread came up because i learned quite a bit about the flag code today.
what i found most interesting is the rule that it is not ok to wear a flag, i.e. t-shirts, and not ok to have a flag in a place where it may become dirtied, i.e. bumperstickers. i've always been aware of the debate on flag burning, but didn't realize that many of our "true patriots" that abhore this idea(flag burning) and proudly wear their flag t-shirts, are portraying a hypocrtical case since they are being disrespectful as well...
even more interesting for me is that according to this code, the american flag should not be used as a postage stamp...holy carrots! i learned a lot today.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

104. You've now hit the heart of my problem here.

I would be a complete hypocrite if I didn't criticize Moses Mitchell for doing the same thing that pisses me off about the "true patriots" you refer to.

Do you understand me better now?

[chickenscratching]

105. oh yes

yes i do, and i apologize for jumping off my fiery rocker here and attacking you. i do understand your input a whole lot better and where you're coming from. sometimes i get a bit feisty before i look at the whole picture. friends? :pals:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

107. Yeah, it's cool

Never really was mad at you, nor was I most others. The point of the forums is to help each other out and expand our knowledge. :pals: :toast:

[chickenscratching]

108. i hear you

i didnt think you were angry, it's just too bad that a lot of times we don't discuss issues (we argue them) and we aren't prepared to expand our minds unless we allow it...

[loritooker]

72. The flag is a symbol. We don't worship symbols. Do we? BoogaBooga.

[Renew Deal]

83. There are rules about how you handle the flag.

Did you know that?

[Lorien]

3. Maybe they should go after the millions of * supporters

with filthy, tattered flags attached to their pickup trucks and SUVs? (There LOADS of them here in Florida)!

[karlrschneider]

8. Well you beat me to that one! Barely!

:D

[DeaconBlues]

5. The heart of this idiot Long is broken because he has to look at a flag

that's past its prime. What about the fact that Americans (and Iraqis) are still dieing in a war that was supposed to last "three weeks at the most"? What does that do to his wretched heart?

[NYC]

10. Many of the soldiers are now in worse shape than the flag.

People ought to care more about the soldiers.

[Zenlitened]

15. Typical of the flag-fetishists to be all in a lather over the cloth...

... and miss the symbolism entirely. Three cheers to Moses Mitchell, and the Jack Longs of the world can take their pretend-patriotism and hang themselves, for all I care.

[Orsino]

58. Yep.

Just as it's easy to love a plastic Jesus on your dashboard as you drive past the homeless.

Any sane god would be peeved when people begin worshiping golden calves.

[retnavyliberal]

109. ok... had enough...

I served 21 years in the Navy to support the constitution, including the 1st Amendment, and I believe that Mr. Mitchell has every right to do as he is doing. I also think it is very disgraceful and only brings attention to him and not his cause. Not to mention the attention he is getting is that 80% of the people in the country believe he is an ass. (In the polling data that I have read 80% of those polled feel flag burning is wrong. I would guess that the numbers are similar if asked about improper treatment of the flag.) What aggravates me is when people say they feel it is inappropriate, they get called flag-worshipers, flag-fetishists or pretend-patriots. I do not see how insulting peoples believes helps any cause, but I can tell you that there is nothing pretend about MY patriotism.

[Kimber Scott]

17. The country is in shreds. He should be disgraced by that. nt

[Selatius]

18. What the hell is so damn important what he does with his flag???

What business is it of anyone what people do with flags that they have, especially if they paid for it?

"My father fought and died for that flag!"
"No he didn't! He fought for what that flag represents! Which is the FREEDOM to burn the fucking flag!"

[chickenscratching]

95. hey is that bill hicks? n/t

[hopein08]

21. I like this guy's message...

his tattered flag would kind of represent the way that our armed forces will be when they come home. Tattered, worn, faded...

It's really quite sad.

[Lisa]

22. very symbolic ...

Since Mr. Mitchell is a veteran, he likely knows the US flag display code inside and out, so it makes this deliberate protest that much more effective. I know former military personnel who have marched under inverted flags (symbol of distress), or flags where the stars had been replaced by a peace symbol, and they felt that their right to do this, and the urgency of their message, honored the spirit of the law even if it contravened the written rules.

If Mr. Long wants to go after people who are disrespecting the flag of his country, may I suggest this individual -- the same person who sent those soldiers to be shredded and ruined:

http://www.dubyaspeak.com/incidents.shtml
(page down to the bottom)


"Federal Flag Code, Section 4(g): "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature."

[arwalden]

24. Flag Worshippers Are Freaks!

It's just a flag... not a holy relic! Folks like Jack Long need to get a life.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

26. Our entire country is faded and in tatters.

For my money, the analogy is exactly correct.

[billyoc]

27. He should fly it upside down

until the troops come home.

I do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. I took mine down

the day we went to war. It's not going back up until this insane war is over.

[DS1]

29. Oh hell, if people were serious about this, there'd have

to be about 5 million new flags ordered for all the FReeper types that fly their flags 24/7, through all four seasons, until they are little but shattered, faded echoes of a true colorful flag :eyes:

Hypocrits. It's only when it represents how much of a fucking asshole George W. Bush is that it's an affront to the "flag".

Assholes. It's our flag too!

[chickenscratching]

101. and did you know...

according to flag code....the flag should not be worn on a t-shirt or any clothing, or placed in any manner where it could be dirtied? (ie bumperstickers) this whole time, i didn't even know i had fuel to go after these people that attack flag burning and the like, their stupid t-shirts are scornful of the flag too....lame-OS!!!!!

[BiggJawn]

37. If he was a vocal Chimp supporter, nobody'd notice.

All the homes and businesses around here that have faded shredded flags flying, the faded flag stickers that are just blue and white but said "these colores don't run" (but they faded pretty bad, huh..)

Thankfully, most of those $5 car flags FINALLY broke and fell off. I was getting tired of seeing faded tattered rags flying from the doorframe of some Sunshine Patriot's SUV...

I have one of those electric candles in my front window. It stays lit till either they all come home, or the electricity runs out.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. By the time the Iraq war is over

there will be nothing left of this flag.

[JohnLocke]

42. Good for him. Mr. Mitchell, I salute you! (nt).

[Blue_Tires]

43. this complainer needs to find a fucking life

"The flag's condition has infuriated Vietnam War veteran Jack Long. He has contacted politicians, the police and even the FBI in a futile effort to force Mitchell to take it down."

DUDE...relax...enjoy your retirement--travel, take up golf, or gardening or some other hobby. IT'S JUST A FLAG!

[Solly Mack]

46. The tattered flag is the greater symbol (as far as symbols go)

the longer America is in Iraq the more the flag becomes tattered and damaged...

like watching America go from being whole to being in shreds...

True. It's not proper flag etiquette. True. Some will not see the greater, unintended, symbolic meaning. True. Some will be offended that a tattered flag is still flying.

Who cares?

Some people are so fucking concerned with how others show patriotism and respect when those same people would not pass someone else's sniff test for being patriotic.



I'd wager Long isn't so much offended by the improper display of the flag as he is afraid of the conflicting emotions that tattered flag brings out in him. People often react in anger at those things that test their beliefs in an uncomfortable way.

[Skidmore]

53. Wonder if Mr. Long had a problem with Little Boots

autographing a flag during the 04 campaign?

[Orsino]

54. How *dare* anyone continue to display such a tattered flag?

http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc99/6_26_99/bob1.htm

[xxqqqzme]

71. I had a peace flag

blue background w/ appliqued dove & olive branch & PEACE letters across the bottom. I put it up when the war drum beat was ramping up and vowed not 2 take it down until it fell off the staff. It faded, started fraying, the dove & peace letters's stitching started failing. I took it as a symbol of what has happened in this country. I finally took it down out of respect 4 peace and replaced it w/ another peace flag that has an appliqued lion & lamb w/ peace across the bottom. That one now is also started to show its age. This administration is hard on peace.

[jswordy]

80. This is what happens when you put your faith in a thing rather...

...than the concepts it is supposed to embody. Things rot away.

[lebkuchen]

84. Can't remember the last time I saw the German flag flying in any condition

Flags aren't too popular over here.

[Damien]

103. US flag code (here)

I haven't seen anyone else post it, so here is a link

http://www.usflag.org/us.code36.html

Vash is correct in his statements -- it is against the code.

There are two arguments here -- yes, it is against the code. The other is whether or not the code is good, to which I don't have a strong feeling in all honesty.

[chickenscratching]

106. also

i know another person did post a link: http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html