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quaoar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 09:28 PM
Original message
Microsoft Chairman Challenges Governors to Improve High Schools
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/27/education/27bill.html

By ROBERT PEAR
Published: February 27, 2005

WASHINGTON, Feb. 26 - Bill Gates, the chairman of Microsoft, delivered a blistering critique of American high schools on Saturday, and his foundation promised $15 million to states to make immediate improvements.

Mr. Gates, speaking to the National Governors Association, said that "America's high schools are obsolete" and are "ruining the lives of millions of Americans every year."

High schools, he said, leave most students unprepared for college and for today's jobs. "When I compare our high schools with what I see when I'm traveling abroad," he added, "I am terrified for our work force of tomorrow."

To address the problem, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation said it would give $15 million to the National Governors Association, to be disbursed to states that take significant steps to improve their high schools.
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NEOBuckeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hey Bill, Blame Bush and NCLB
Bush wants our children to grow up stupid so they can be cannon fodder for the next three wars. High School, and education itself for that matter, is unimportant.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. So why aren't high schools
included in NCLB???
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. I suppose it's would be unpopular to say
but Bravo to Bill and Melinda Gates.
:toast:
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DubyaSux Donating Member (366 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Me too...
...I'll be unpopular as well.

If I were Bill Gates, I'd keep every nickel because no matter what I did, people would hate me just because I'm rich.

No matter that Gates has given a very large percentage of his wealth to medical research, AIDS, education, and anything that could make a significant difference, it's not good enough.

He speaks the truth and is trying to do something about it. But again he gets demonized because it's not good enough.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Said the man who cheated and stolen to get to the top of the ladder.
Edited on Sat Feb-26-05 10:04 PM by HypnoToad
He's blowing smoke out of his mouth.

Mind you, Microsoft stole from Apple what Apple stole from Xerox, so what does it all matter in the end?

Let him move abroad and help ruin those countries too.

Oh, I'll applaud Gates if he donates even 2% (about $1 billion) of his worth to renovating schools. Remember, he donated 0.00006% of his wealth to the Tsunami victims. Let him be a real American and put his money where his big mouth is.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. He has donated a ton of money to education
The high schools in my district are working under a grant from his foundation this year. I haven't heard great things yet about this reform effort though.
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jayctravis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Bill Gates needs brilliant minds.
And he's noticing that the current trends aren't supporting the nourishment of them. What better way to spend money if you have a kaflillion dollar net worth.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Microsoft has a lack of talent.
Edited on Sat Feb-26-05 11:44 PM by Massacure
Investing in education is probably a smart move for Gates if he wants to stay ahead of the curve, no matter how he got ahead of it in the first place.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. 15 million outta 60 billion.
Thank you Mr. Gates.
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Anakin Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hey bill, Maybe If
the tech jobs stay right here at home in the US, more students would be motivated and interested in them.

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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. I'm a little confused here.
Our current college grads can't find jobs b/c they've been outsourced, but more college grads are needed?
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
9. Maybe if Microsoft stopped EXTORTING license fees
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 12:05 AM by depakid
from them for exorbitant prices (and they do this- they actually go around threatening litigation) school districts might be able afford a few other amenities, like after school programs or smaller class sizes.

If Gates really wanted to put his money where his mouth is, he'd offer to forego those license fees- or at least put every single nickel MS collected over the past- say 5 years, into a trust account that went back to the districts for specific projects....


But, somehow I doubt he's all that committed....

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RawMaterials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. simple just give free licensing to the schools would cost bill millions,
and help the schools out tremendously
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98geoduck Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. They actually do give academia pretty cheap site licenses. ($50.00)
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Don't expect many people to know that
It's more fun for them to just complain. :eyes: Truth is, Bill & Melinda Gates are VERRRY philanthropic. They give away tons of money. I say this as someone who's always been a huge fan of Apple products because I believe they're better.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
40. You and the above poster should do your homework
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 11:09 PM by depakid
and a little math before mouthing off about things you don't know anything about.

Schools cry bully over Microsoft licensing fees

Microsoft Corp. has earned a failing grade from school districts in Oregon and Washington, where administrators say the company's licensing tactics could force a rapid move to open-source software.

Educators in both states received letters from the company in March giving them 60 days to perform extensive audits in search of unlicensed software, or risk facing potentially costly penalties. The letter came with a marketing brochure touting the company's latest volume-licensing agreements. The letter's tone, which some recipients felt was threatening, elicited a strong response from school administrators. They complained loudly, and some even threatened to strip their schools' PCs of Microsoft products.

<snip>

The letter arrived at the busiest time of the year for the schools, as they were gearing up for the close of the spring semester. And because the public schools in Portland have 25,000 computers spread across 100 buildings, completing the audit on time would have required hiring extra personnel at a total cost of around $300,000.

<snip>

The cost of licensing would run about $500,000, which for us is the cost of 10 teaching positions."



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funnymanpants Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. I don't think this is right
It doesnt' cost univeristies or high schools 50 bucks to run hundreds of computers using Microsoft Windows. Gates ripped off and extorted the US for billions. So now he is giving back 15 million? That doesn't sound very fair to me.

Don't forget, Gates was convicted of running a monopoly.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
10. Gates, the son of wealthy and influential parents - His mom hooked
him up with IBM, dispenses worthless "you should" advice. Bill, where you you be without the kick from your mom and incredibly lucky breaks? My guess, an unemployed outsourced geek, instead of the world's richest geek.
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. "Microsoft users (reluctant)...
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 12:54 AM by Bigmack
ask Gates to improve product" Now there's a headline I'd like to see.

Make the fucking software without a million holes and patches, Bill, and maybe I'll listen. Oh.. wait... I won't listen. I'll be effortlessly using my MAC!

I think Gates is trying to capture the schools market, traditionally Apple territory.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
13. The People challenge
Bill Gates to improve Windoze!
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
16. Our kids *ARE* prpeared for "Today's jobs".
Wal-Mart and Cannon Fodder.

15 megabux. I'll top you, Bill. I'll give a whole FIFTY CENTS to education! Bet that's a considerably larger portion of *MY* Net Worth than 15,000,000 is of YOURS.


I'm supposed to be all verklempt and go out and buy more WinDoz because the richest geek in the world gave 20 minute's income to the schools. Why not 15 megabux to EACH state?
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. Money would be nice, but it won't make much of a difference .
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 01:23 PM by tblue37
Money aimed at education gets siphoned off into layers of bureaucracy, and aside from that, there are other problems with education in this country that money can't begin to help.

Sure, we desperately need more money for better education, more and better-paid teachers, improvement of infrastructure, etc. But it doesn't help if the values that shape education are totally screwed up--as they are in this country.

I have an essay on my Teacher, Teacher website called "The Inmates Are Running the Asylum"
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/inmates.html
that describes the pandemonium in many grade school classrooms these days. The teacher has no authority at all in the classroom. Two days ago, one of my readers, who went back to school at age 45 to get a degree in education who and has been teaching 4th grade for 3 years, wrote to tell me she totally agrees with what I say in my essay, and that she is on the verge of quitting the job she went back to school at some expense to prepare herself for.

A book called Another World, by Elinor Burkett (NY: Perennial, 2001; 2002), provides a clear snapshot of why our kids end up shallow, ignorant, and incompetent, even if their schools have plenty of money. Burkett is a journalist who spent a year observing in an affluent suburban high school. She also interviewed at length and repeatedly the teachers, kids, parents, administrators. The picture that emerges is of a school with plenty of money but a complete lack of commitment to real education. School is a social club for these kids. Field trips and extracurricular activities---even if they have no discernible educational purpose--are given so much priority over learning that a teacher can barely plan her lessons, because on any given day a significant portion of her students won’t even be there. (That’s how some of that extra money gets spent.)

Grades are everything, and no student (or parent) is willing to allow grades to be tied to actual performance. Students are lackadaisical and inattentive in class, and spend their time talking on cell phones, playing around, baiting the teachers, etc. The kids have their self-esteem stoked at every point along the way, but it is never tied to any effort or accomplishment on their part.

In this country school is daycare and a social club. It has little to do with education. I get the products of American schools in my college classroom. Every year it gets worse. They are not being taught diddlysquat. Some bright, eager students manage to get to college with some knowledge, some skills, and a willingness to work, but they are fighting an uphill battle to accomplish that.

Extra money can buy nicer schools, lots of computers, field trips—but it can’t make anyone give a damn about real education. On the other hand, all over the world people who really value education manage to get it by dint of extraordinary sacrifice and effort, even if they have to get it in a shack with a dirt floor, without paper or pencils, and virtually without books. Such destitution puts nearly insurmountable barriers in the way of achieving an education, and consequently most who want one can’t get one. But all the money in the world won’t help if the entire society has no idea what real education is, does not place any value on actual learning, and uses those finely appointed schools and all those extra, well-paid teachers for nothing better than what schools are being used for now in this country.

BTW, you might also like to read another of my rants on my Teacher, Teacher site: "It's Stupid to Be Smart"
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/stupidsmart.html



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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Cell phones???
The district I teach in and every other one I know of strictly prohibits cell phones, pagers, or any other electronic devices in class. Homeland Security regs have also clamped down on these devices.

Where did you get this information? Sounds kinda fishy to me.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Sorry--
The cell phones are from my own direct experience in my classrooms, not from the public school classes. I teach college English, and I assure you, I do have to correct students every day for text messaging during class. I describe the sort of thing that goes on in "Blatantly Obnoxious":

http://teacherblue.homestead.com/obnoxious.html

They don't even sit in the back of the room and try to hide what they are doing, because they don't realize that any teacher might consider it inappropriate behavior.

But my college students are coming directly out of the high school culture, and using their cell phones in class is an extension of everything they do get away with in public school classes.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. That is ridiculous
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 02:20 PM by proud2Blib
Can't you tell them no phones in class? Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. In the adult world, there are many places where cell phones are not allowed. I chair meetings and have no problem asking people to turn off their cell phones.

And honestly, I know of no school district here that allows cell phones in the school, especially in classrooms. We confiscate them and contact the cell phone carrier. BTW, I would guess that 90% of them are stolen.

On edit, I just asked my son, who is in college, and he said most of his teachers do not allow cell phones in class. He said he always turns his off when class starts.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Of course we tell them it isn't allowed!
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 05:26 PM by tblue37
And of course we correct them firmly when they break the rules.

And of course it is absolutely ridiculous and should not happen.

And yet it does happen!

As far as any sort of discipline is concerned, we are severely hobbled by administrators' fears of angry and potentially litigious students and parents. When I first started teaching in 1972, we could actually throw a student out of class for being disruptive. Although I never had that problem myself, I know of a couple of cases where it did happen.

But now we have to take a formal complaint to the chairman, and he has to go through all sorts of complex and time-consuming procedures, and removing the student isn't even an option on the table unless he threatens actual violence.

Something as relatively benign as being naughty or thoughtless enough to pull out your cell phone in class doesn't even register as a significant offense. We are pretty much on our own in dealing with such things, and if we deal too firmly, a complaint will go to our department, and we will get into serious trouble.

Understand that many of us teaching in college now do not have the protection of tenure, no matter how long we have been there or how much we have done for the department. (There is another DU thread on this issue.)

Juts to give you an example of how little authority or power a teacher has:

This semester I have received a series of bizarrely insulting e-mails from a student in one of my classes. Now, I am a very popular teacher, and my evaluations are overwhelmingly positive, despite the fact that I actually try to apply some academic rigor to my grading policies.

But there is no way to please everyone all the time, especially if you require students to do the work, to follow rules, and to meet certain standards of performance.

In my “Introduction to Poetry” class I allow students to submit a draft of their essays before the due date, to get some feedback that will, it is hoped, enable them to improve their papers before they have to be graded on them. This is not required by my department. In fact, the department rather prefers that we not allow revisions, though they do not actually forbid it. Furthermore, I spend an incredible amount of time marking papers so that students know exactly what they need to do to improve their writing. Adding an extra draft of each paper for each student literally doubles my workload.

In other words, the students don’t actually have a “right” to this early submission and chance for revision. It is something I do at some real cost to myself, simply because I believe it is essential to their learning process.

I also have some requirements for their essays’ formatting, and those requirements are in writing, both online and in the introductory handout that I pass out at the beginning of the semester. Nothing bizarre, just standard stuff: double-spaced, typed on only one side of the sheet of paper, stapled in the corner. My only unusual requirement is actually a departmental standard wider than normal margins (1 ½ to 2 inches), to allow room for my copious comments. The formatting requirements are there simply to make it possible to read and mark their papers.

This girl turned in her paper with margins so bizarrely wide that the text of the paper occupied only 1 ½ inches in the center of the page. No line contained more than 4 small words, and many lines contained only 2 or 3. If a single word was even a little bit long, it didn’t fit and had to be hyphenated. Imagine, lines of text without even a single whole word! Needless to say, this made it very difficult to read her paper. As for marking it, the darned thing was also single-spaced. She is not a good writer. Every single sentence had errors that needed to be corrected. Her essay’s focus, organization and development were weak, so they also needed to be commented on as the paper progressed.

I was annoyed and frustrated at this nonsense, of course. But I tried anyway to comment and correct. But after about three pages (which did not take me far into a paper, since each line contained so few words), I gave up. Not only was it just too hard to make corrections when there was no room between the lines, so that everything was connected to the margins with arrows, but also the margins were turning into a holy mess, a pile of red scribbling. I know that I would not be able to use such a mess to correct my own writing, and I was quite certain that it would be discouraging and not at all helpful to her, either.

So I wrote a note at the top of the paper saying,
I am sorry. I can’t mark this paper in this format. The narrow text makes it nearly impossible to read, and the single spacing makes it nearly impossible to mark. E-mail me tonight to remind me, though, and I will send you a set of notes to help you understand the aspects of the poem that are giving you trouble. I will be in my office tomorrow if you want to come in and discuss any other problems you are having with the paper.


The e-mail I got back from her was astonishing! It was so bizarre that I took it to the director of Freshman-Sophomore English. First off, at the first sign of trouble, we all know now to begin immediately the process of documenting every thing that passes between ourselves and such a student. In the second place, I wanted to know if there was a way to get this student out of my class and into someone elses’s. She had already poisoned the well. I am very fair. I don’t grade students on whether I like them. But as I have said, she is not a good writer. Yet her e-mails (that one and subsequent ones) make it clear that I “owe” her a good grade in this class, and that she has no intention of settling for anything less. She has no sense, though, that she might have some responsibility in the matter of earning a grade.

As she put it in her first e-mail, “I pay YOU to teach me!” She has this idea that as her teacher, I am like a waitress. I am there to serve her, and if she feels the service is inferior, she has a right to insult me and chastise me for not jumping when she, the customer, says, “Frog.” (And we all know about customers who feel that a waitress owes them a very high level of fanny-kissing.)

Naturally I now Xerox and keep on file everything that passes between us, including her papers and my comments on her papers. Maybe she will get a good grade this term. I am a good teacher. A lot of people improve dramatically over the course of a semester, if they pay attention to what I am teaching and make some effort. But I haven’t seen that sort of effort or improvement in her work yet. In fact, I have not even seen her as often as I should, since she has a tendency to cut class. But when she gets her grade at the end of the semester, if it is not as high as she feels she has paid for, I am sure the department will hear some noise from her.

The fact that my department told me that there is nothing I can do about her is the real point here, though. She can write e-mails telling me what a crappy teacher I am and lecturing me about how she pays me so I have to do what she says, but I can’t correct her or sanction her in any official way, no matter what she does, and I can’t even ask her to leave my class.

Under circumstances like these, do you honestly think a teacher has any power other than admonishment to prevent a student from playing with his cell phone in class? I have it in writing on my introductory handout that if they are physically in class but clearly doing other things like chatting, writing letters home, doing crossword puzzles, etc., it will count against them, because they will not be counted as actually attending class.

Just last Thursday, I had to admonish a different girl who was messing with her cell phone in class. She had the grace to look embarrassed and put it away, but this very same girl on Tuesday had to be told to put a magazine away. A week earlier, she had pulled out her compact, held it up in front of her face, and started refreshing her lipstick.

This student isn’t a trouble-maker like the other one. She just doesn’t have the self-discipline to refrain from doing whatever the impulse of the moment drives her to do, no matter how inappropriate her behavior might be to the fact that she is in a college classroom. Until about 9 or 10 years ago I never saw anything like this in my classes. But then it started, small at first, but building up gradually over time.

Maybe your son’s teachers have more administrative back-up than we do if they want to sanction students who pull out cell phones. Or maybe all of the teachers he has are actually tenured, so they have more job security and don’t need as much back-up. But I am not lying (and I rather resent the implication that I am) when I say that students pull out cell phones in class. I don’t put up with it, but they do it and I have to tell them to put the things away (which of course they do, looking sheepish about it all). But the fact that I won’t tolerate it doesn’t prevent them from actually doing it in the first place.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. And you obviously teach in a different world than I do
You implied that kids developed this cell phone habit in high school. I am disputing that since I know where I teach, they are strictly forbidden.

I also read your essay about your sub experiences. I found it interesting, as I am an LD teacher. I have a self-contained classroom, for severe LD kids. My students are often the worst of the worst. I go to school sick rather than deal with finding a sub. In the past 8 years, I have had ONE sub who actually understood how to control my kids. So I know how hard it is. But some of us have worked hard to learn how to teach these kids. We are able to see them thrive and succeed. And we have proven that it CAN be done, they CAN learn.

I just find posts and articles like yours to do absolutely nothing to help improve our schools. Painting a negative picture just reinforces the sterotypes of bad schools/bad kids. Since you have actually worked in a school, you come off as an authority and have a certain amount of credibility. But I don't see how your horror stories are the least bit productive. I could write a book (actually an encyclopedia) of stories about kids who have misbehaved at school. But that would be focusing on the negative, which accomplishes nothing but to perpetuate the sterotype of bad schools/bad kids.

I would much rather focus on the success stories. There are hundreds of them every day in every public school in this country. I would much rather convince the non educators, especially here at DU, that most teachers are not having sex with their students, most schools do not suspend kids for stupid reasons and the vast majority of kids actually come to school to learn (and they behave pretty well). Yes, there are problems in our business, but broadcasting them does nothing to solve them. If I thought it did, I would have written my encyclopedia a long time ago.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. My point is that they develop the habit of behaving
in impulsive, undisciplined ways in high school (and earlier), and that the cell phone problem in college stems from the fact that they have developed that habit of ignoring proper rules of behavior and ignoring the teacher's authority. Using a cell phone in class is just an extension of the other things they do that they should not be doing in a classroom and that few if any students in the past would even have tried.

I tutor LD kids of all ages. I know how to work with LD kids, and in my home daycare I even had some kids with both LDs and significant behavior problems. But as long as the parents are on my side, willing to work with me, I can handle those kids just fine. My point is that in the regular classroom the parents are to a large degree not on the same side that we teachers are on. Not only have they failed to socialize their kids (often because their financial situation has forced them to both work exhausting hours, and the kid is being raised by a TV or by an unqualified daycare provider), but they actively undermine any attempt by the teacher to educate the kids or hold them responsible for their performance or behavior.

The children know they will not be held accountable, and that affects their behavior and makes it hard to maintain sufficient order in the classroom to teach anyone.

All the money in the world won’t fix that. Our whole society needs a priority transplant. We need to start believing that actual learning matters (not just grades, which can be weaseled in the absence of learning, if parents and students squawk loudly enough).

This is an excerpt from the reader’s e-mail I mentioned in my earlier post:
I am a mother of six children, ran a home day care for about six years, substituted at my children's elementary school, got my teaching certificate at 45 years of age, and am now a full time sub at the school, ready to quit!!! The essay you wrote about how parents more or less sabotage the efforts of teachers to discipline students in their classroom hit home in particular. I have 29 students in my classroom, seven of whom are being corrected at least once every 15 minutes, all day long. They are being corrected for mocking the teacher, rudely interrupting the teacher, getting out of their seats, passing notes, jumping on their seats, pushing each other, swearing at each other, not doing their work, preventing other children from doing their work, and on and on. I have only been in the classroom for three weeks and have had parent/teacher conferences with about seven parents so far who clearly blame me for what is going on in the classroom. Every one of them said this didn't go on when the regular teacher was present. However, these students' folders are filled with notes to home about how badly their children behaved in the class with their home room teacher.

In those school districts where teachers are backed up by parents and administrators, they are able to maintain enough order in the classroom to teach effectively. My own sister teaches 8th-grade English in a school in a nearby city where the principal backs the teachers up. Not all of the parents cooperate, but enough do to create a reasonable school culture to allow for actual teaching and learning to take place. Maybe you are lucky enough have that sort of situation. But a lot of teachers do not, and until we actually face this problem and deal with it, we can’t begin to fix education in this society. Hiding the realities of what goes on in the classroom doesn’t help. I am no spring chicken. I have seen how schools have changed over the decades. Even in the 1980s and early 1990s, when my own kids were in elementary school, I did not see this sort of chaos in the classroom, and when I did volunteer teaching in their classrooms (which I did several times a week), I never had any trouble maintaining sufficient order to allow for actual teaching. It is different now, very different. I believe such realities must be openly faced and dealt with.

Parents need to understand what they are contributing to the problem and how. If they want us to teach their children, they have to help us out. At least they need to stop undermining our efforts. The stories I have told about kids are really about parents, too. These are not stories about "bad kids" or "bad schools," but about problems caused by counterproductive attitudes that must be changed if we are ever to improve education in this country.

Unlike Candide and Pangloss, I cannot chirp that this is the best of all possible worlds when it isn't even as good as it was 15 years ago.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. And my point is that good things are happening in our schools
And we DO work hard to make them behave. We also try to teach them how to learn so by the time they get to you at the college level, they have some life long skills.

I believe schools are far better than they were 15 years ago. There has been a rather significant reform movement which has had an effect. For example, we are doing a far better job of teaching kids to read now than we did even 5 years ago. The majority of kindergarteners now learn to read before they enter 1st grade. That was not the case a decade ago. Math instruction has also changed dramatically and for the better. Perhaps by the time the kids currently in elementary school reach you, you will notice the difference.

Discipline is also better (unfortunately thanks to the rash of school shootings in the late 90s). State laws have been passed that force schools to discipline kids who were once ignored or pampered by the administration.

And BTW, I teach in an urban school. 90% of our kids are on free lunch. 60% come to us not speaking English. If we can turn our kids into readers and thinkers, the suburbs can do it too.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Hmmm. . .
I wonder whether you might actually be at a bit of an advantage in a strange sort of way. Teaching in an urban school presents its own set of very real problems, but I suspect that damaging parental interference might be less of a problem for you than for teachers in affluent suburban districts. We want parents to be involved in their kids' education, of course. I was very involved as a parent, and I highly recommend it. But we want them involved in a positive way, not undermining teachers but working with them. I have seen both kinds of parents, but have seen far too many of the sort that send unsocialized kids to school and then get angry when their kids have to be corrected for bad behavior. And I also see far too many parents who won't tolerate the idea that their kid might get less than an A, regardless of the quality of work he turns in--if he turns in any at all.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I have taught in both urban and suburban
and you are right, it is very different, especially in dealing with parents. We probably do a lot more parent education than suburban schools. We also deal with a lot of apathy. We do home visits at the beginning of the year, to start out on a positive note with our parents. We really work hard to make them want to be involved. We also have a lot of social services, like helping parents access community resources. We even refer them for help paying utility bills.

But we certainly have angry parents as well. And far too many who send unsocialized kids to school. I also think ALL of our kids, no matter what SES is, spend way too much time playing video games. That causes a lot of problems, since real life is nothing like a video game.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. By the way,
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 08:07 PM by tblue37
I was struck last year by an article in the NY Times about teachers who were welcoming video cameras into their classrooms. Some parents who proposed the idea meant to "catch" the teachers in the same way that some parents have caught their nannies mistreating their children. But rather than fearing that they might be caught acting badly themselves, the teachers were delighted at the idea of such documentation of what goes on in the classtroom, how the kids are behaving, and how they are handling the misbehavior. Teachers know that they need incontrovertible evidence to avoid being falsely accused of mistreating children or of grossly overreacting to normal, unexceptionable childish behavior.

I am not pretending that all public school teachers are saints, or even that all of them are competent (though I believe that most really are competent and caring, and that public school teachers in general strive heroically under almost impossible conditions). I am just saying that most people don't have a clue about what goes on in a public school classroom, and they really should, before they start proposing "solutions" that are not likely to address the underlying problems.

BTW, I am not a public school teacher, though I have done a lot of volunteer teaching and substitute teaching in the public schools. I teach at the college level, and though we have our share of problems there, we are not laboring under the same difficult conditions that public school teachers face each day. The problems they deal with do produce problems for us when their students arrive in our classrooms, but we still have it a whole lot easier than they do.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Putting cameras on our buses
greatly reduced discipline problems.

I really don't like the idea of a camera in my classroom. I have rarely lacked administrative support when I needed it for a discipline problem. And the administrators are paid to deal with uncooperative parents, not me. I have one this year and I doubt a camera would help convince this mom that her cherub is a troubled child. But in all fairness, I do know of a kid whose mom was convinced of his unruliness when the principal videotaped his antics.

But the main reason I am opposed to cameras in classrooms is because we are being moved to a scripted curriculum. Nationwide. LWolf has posted a couple things about this over on the education board. While it sounds like a great idea to give a new teacher a script to teach from, veterans like me do not need to be told what to say. I am afraid that cameras may be used to monitor the teachers, to be sure we are using these expensive scripted lessons being forced on us. Think about that - talk about an attack on academic freedom! I am hoping to be retired by the time we are drowned in these scripted lessons.

But here is a funny about cameras. I had a class from you know where several years ago. We also got new computers that year. One day, my principal came in my room to deal with a problem my class had at lunch and they of course denied all the accusations the lunch room monitor had made against them. Instead of arguing with my kids, the principal turned to me and asked if my new computers had come with the cameras already installed or would they be putting them in later? My kids FROZE. And for a week or so, they actually behaved better in class.

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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I agree.
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 08:46 PM by tblue37
Scripted curricula strike me as big, big mistake. The fact is, all the scripting in the world won't turn a bad teacher into a good one, but it certainly can make it impossible for a good teacher to do her job well.

One reason I teach college rather than high school is that I am in control of my own classroom and can design my own material. There are a lot of constraints that you have to face as a public school teacher that I simply don't have to deal with. It takes a lot of extra creativity to work around those constraints.

I also shudder at the amount of paperwork you have to do. I certainly do a lot, in the sense of spending hours each day marking student papers, but I don't have to fill out the kinds of forms and bureaucratic papers you have to deal with every day. Simply thinking of the documentation of minutiae required of you folks exhausts me!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. You have to get the kids to pay attention before you start
teaching that curriculum, and there is no script for that. :)

And I have remained in special ed for years for the same reason you teach college - I have the freedom to teach what I think they need to learn and can deviate from the curriculum a lot more than a regular ed teacher.

Don't get me started on paperwork. It is a much despised necessary evil. But computers have really helped. We do a lot of things online.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. God, yes!
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 10:16 PM by tblue37
Computers are such a blessing for teachers!

Are you old enough to remember having to ditto everything or write it on the board? Typing dittomasters--UGH!

I love having my materials saved so I don't have to retype them every term. I can modify them as I need without starting from the beginning.

Also, my students have practically 24/7 access to me for help on papers and answers to questions, since I am online almost all the time.

And I can keep all the class materials available all the time online, so even when students lose important handouts, they can always print off an extra copy--or at least access it online.

Instead of the expensive but soporific textbooks that they never actually read, I have posted materials that constitute a targeted online textbook for each of my courses. My students love that--and college and high school teachers all over the world (especially in the US and Canada, of course) have incorporated my materials into their classrooms as well.



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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Ugh those purple dittos were awful
The summer after my first year teaching, all my dittos melted while they were stored in a hot closet. I was so mad. All that work - gone.

But remember that scene from Fast Times at Ridgemont HIgh? When the teacher passed out the fresh dittos and all the kids were sniffing them to get high? I always think of that scene when I think of dittos. LOL

or is it dittoEs? It's been so long since I wrote that word I forgot how to spell it.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
23. Bill, did you finally wake up?
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 02:36 PM by fortyfeetunder
While you were geeking it up at your alma mater Lakeside (a private school in Seattle WA) the public schools were crumbling then.

Fortunately, millions of us managed to excel in spite of them. Did you not notice what we had to go through then?

And 30+ years and later, you are now noticing the decline? You are now appalled?

edit:typo
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GettysbergII Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. Bill, you're full of sh*t
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 03:31 PM by GettysbergII
http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p20-550.pdf

First, the linked census information doesn't seem to support Gates contentions regarding public education that the sky is falling. (Notice by the way that the lowest HS graduation rate is in Texas)

Second, the greatest preil facing public education for the past quarter century is that wealthy right wingers such as the Bradleys, (Bradley Foundation), Coors (Heritage Foundation) and Waltons (Walton Foundation) have invested countless hundreds of millions of dollars to systematically destroy public education by a campaign of lobbying, misinformation, buying state school boards, etc so as to lay the foundation for the $600 billion/yr industry that could be created by privatizing public schools. As added bonuses one of the last strong labor unions would be destroyed, and the 'liberalization of the masses' through indoctrination in heretical concepts such as 'democracy', 'civil rights', 'femininism', 'evolution' would be halted. At the same time they, particularly Wal-Mart, have done everything possible to get out of paying their owed property taxes that support public education.

Third, growing poverty, widespread racism and the debt owed due to the destruction of the African American and the Native American family through centuries of institutional and 'corporate' oppression are huge societal issues, not merely educational.

Fourth, corporatations are largely reponsible: (1) for forcing both parents in the American nuclear family to work like dogs thus having less time to spent as the primary educators/socializers of their children, and (2) forgoing the use of mass media as an educational and information disseminating tool and instead using it almost exclusively as a shameless sideshow for fostering sundry snake oil products on the masses.

Fifth, parents are still where the buck stops vis a vis the education of their children. Any parents that don't accept that responsibility shouldn't be parents. I'm a Chicago Public School Teacher and my daughter goes to a 80%+ African American neighborhood Chicago public school on the far southside. She always scores in the 95+ percentile in both math and reading on her annual ITBS tests. That is in big part due to our family culture including her big brother (but her school is also a very effective school).

Sixth, tax payers, both corporate and private, are sitting on the ball. If they can ante up for ridiculous 'defense' budget, they can dig in comparably for education. Massive amounts of funding are needed to 1) rebuilt the 20% of schools that are literally falling apart and are environmentally hazardous, 2) fund all day preschool, and 1st to 3rd grades with extremely low class size (less than 15, better around 10 per teacher) for all children at risk, particularly in our inner cities. Massive amounts of funding also need to go to mandatory parental education and training of the parents of children at risk.

Seventh, many changes need to made in our public schools as we know them starting with corporate bigwigs, politicians, beaurocrats and university professors with no or little experience as educators in elementary or secondary schools need to take a back seat in the process of transforming them. Also education professors must spend spend one out of every five year as a classroom teacher or administrator in the type of public school they allege to be an expert on. Anything else is BS.

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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
26. What jobs are those, Bill?
I have a bachelors degree and I'm doing the same data entry job that I had while I was in college.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
36. I heard the headlines but not the whole speech. What kind of
changes is he looking for?

I agree with most of you, that lots of jobs are being outsourced, but I also agree with Bill that most students aren't prepared for very much on graduation day.

I talked to a teacher friend of mine, and asked why such simple things as how to write a check, balance a check book, or the good and bad things about credit cards isn't taught to our HS students. She teaches English and computer science, and she said she made those things part of her class, but it's not mandatory and most teachers don't bother.

I'd be interested to hear Bill's view on this. What training are the schools missing?
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 05:15 AM
Response to Original message
42. I was a high school teacher for almost twenty years
and my (probably unpopular) suggestions would be:

1) Abolish the U.S. Department of Education and return education to local school districts, counties or (at the very least) to the states.

2) Make certain that schools provide an environment which is conducive to learning, and I do believe that most students wish to learn.

Discipline must be maintained in the classroom by dedicated teachers who are supported by their administrators, and I've discovered over the years that the majority of classroom teachers are dedicated to their profession.

If proper discipline involves the removal of disruptive students from class, then so be it. One disorderly student in the classroom is one too many.

For a couple of years I had the good fortune of teaching in a rather progressive school that maintained a professionally staffed In-School Suspension Hall, and it made a world of difference in our classrooms. (Disruptive students were sent to the Suspension Hall for one to three days and they were required to do the classwork and homework assigned to them. More importantly, they were isolated from the main student body during lunch. We discovered that most students prefer to work cooperatively in the classroom.)

3) Disregard most recommendations, theories, etc., that originate in think tanks. I have found that these groups are abysmally 'out of touch' with real-life teaching situations.

4) Disregard the foolish notion that ALL students are scholars who wish to attend college.

I would be remiss if I did not add the following: Parents should take responsibility for their own children by making certain that their children are well-rested and prepared for school each and every day.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
43. Style over substance.
Building the Banana Republicans of tomorruh.
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