Dean Takes the Offensive in Comments on Clark

[ProudToBeLiberal]

Dean Takes the Offensive in Comments on Clark

By JODI WILGOREN with EDWARD WYATT

Howard Dean, whose campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination has been built on an antiwar message, yesterday questioned the antiwar credentials of his newest opponent, Gen. Wesley K. Clark.

Dr. Dean, who himself has been accused by rivals of flip-flopping on issues, focused on remarks General Clark made last week when, in interviews, he first said that he probably would have voted for the Congressional resolution authorizing war in Iraq and then, the following day, was led to backtrack.

"I was shocked" by General Clark's initial comment on the resolution, Dr. Dean, former governor of Vermont, said in an interview as he flew from a rally in Boston to a series of fund-raisers in New York. "I was even more shocked that he switched the next day."

\snip\
\snip\

Though raising questions about his new rival, Dr. Dean largely stuck yesterday to the tactics that had attracted a great deal of support, intensifying his attack on President Bush. He drew laughs from a noontime crowd of about 3,000 at Copley Square in Boston when he said that before the American Revolution, "there was a king named George who had forgotten his own people in favor of special interests."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/24/politics/campaigns/24DEAN.html?ex=1064980800&en=4a16007d80fb624a&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

[Jim Sagle]

1. He'll run through Clark like crap through a goose.

[democracyindanger]

2. You mean

by starting out as something substantial and ending up as steaming pile?

Hehe, sorry, couldn't resist. But when people lob softballs like that one...

[CWebster]

3. Now were anyone to say that on a Clark thread

they would try to ban you.

No potshots at the General who until a week or two couldn't quite sever his Republican ties.

[janx]

51. Like crap through a Christmas goose, Sagle.

But I will refrain from tempting you to say that this thread is nothin' but goose shit! ;-)

--jk

[Democat]

4. Dean should stick to bashing Bush

We don't need another Lieberman.

[CWebster]

6. My Stars!

Does this mean his royal, General, sir, is immune from criticism and legitimate questioning?

We are Democrats, supposedly we don't duck from the hard and controversial questions and expect all to fall in line, saluting. The attacks from Lieberman and Kerry on Dean were just as much a reflection of the battlelines and were instructive as to where the candidates stood on the issues. It is all part of the process---what makes anyone think Clark is removed from scrutiny just because he is the latest fad?

[Democat]

15. If you don't mind Lieberman, Nader, and Zell doing the same thing

More power to you.

I could vote for Dean or Clark, but Dean is not helping the Democratic Party by attacking the Democratic front runner.

It also risks coming off as desperate on Dean's part.

[Atlant]

18. "Front Runner" -- Is that the latest from the Clark Meme Team?

The "Meme of the Week" as it were?

Atlant

[wndycty]

20. I think the polls. . .

. . .have made him the front runner, its not a meme. Take issue with pollsters on this one.

[Atlant]

26. Ahh, I see. He's the "front runner" like Lieberman was the "front runner".

(NT)

[wndycty]

38. You can spin it any way you want to. . .

. . .if the polls are to be believed (often times they are not) then he is the front runner. Your issue should not be with us Clark supporters but the pollsters and the people who responded in favor of Clark.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

30. Read the article

He didn't even come close to attacking Clark. IMO, it was the author twisting 3 words "I was shocked" and alleging that Dean was shocked about Clark's comment. Pretty thin, IMO. Be angry at the stupid author of the article, not Dean. Dean was the only one who issued a statement after Clark's war comments that said we have to take some time to get to know Clark's positions.

[janx]

52. Because, because...because....

He's a GENERAL! x(

[Chico Man]

9. I read the article, I don't think it was a "bash"

I had the same concerns as Dean. These are VERY legitimate "questions and concerns.."

[Kahuna]

10. I didn't read the article but the snip in the post...

I would not consider a bash. Everybody was stunned by Clark's remarks. When you hear someone say one thing repeatedly and then read reports that are the total opposite of what you'd always heard, anybody would be stunned. I was stunned. I still want to hear from Clark the context in which he made the remarks.

[calimary]

40. I was stunned, too. I like a lot about Clark, but the back-n-forth about

whether he did support the war or he didn't - uh - well - er - see, that's a BIG issue for me. I'd thought I'd read things about Clark being against the war, but then to see other quotes that indicate otherwise - I, too, am stunned and confused. I had been wavering on my support for Howard Dean. All this did-he-or-didn't-he about Clark has shaken me a little about him. I'm back to NOT wavering in my support for Howard Dean. Dean never once capitulated on his anti-war stance. That said, I LIKE Wesley Clark. As I've posted here before, there's a lot about him that I can live with.

But it's one thing to say you're against the war NOW (when it's CLEARLY being shown to be the utter abortion we feared it might be), and another to start coming around to that realization after having enabled the war and bought into the lies without questioning and allowing yourself to be blinded by rhetoric and calls for patriotism and not looking facts in the face. It's easy to say the war is bad now, when only those in denial, or who stand to make money off the war, still insist it was a good thing. It took guts to come out against it when the polls all showed people believed bush and thought it was the thing to do.

[booksenkatz]

5. Does this mean

that the idea of one being the VP for the other is out the window now? If they're going to start attacking each other, I can't see them coming together when it's over as a strong team, putting the harsh words behind them and shaking hands. Jesus, I wish they'd just stick to attacking Bush!

[CWebster]

7. The way it is going , anyone can beat Bush

This is just as much about the future of the Democratic party. It can move further to the Right, as it's present course propels it, and remain incompetent and irrelevant but maintain corporate funding--or it can return to it's purpose and regain it's identity and effectiveness with grassroots support.]

It is last call on the Democratic party.

[Julien Sorel]

24. And Dean, who has the most conservative economic plan

of all the candidates, is just the guy to move the party to the left. Just like he moved the state of Vermont to the left.

[CWebster]

35. At least he isn't a war criminal

http://yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=1587&mode=thread&order=0

[union_maid]

12. Well, they are running against each other

"that the idea of one being the VP for the other is out the window now? If they're going to start attacking each other, I can't see them coming together when it's over as a strong team, putting the harsh words behind them and shaking hands. Jesus, I wish they'd just stick to attacking Bush"

You have to expect a little of that. I think that the candidates remain amazingly united in their condemnation of Bush considering their competition is each other. Supporters' passion notwithstanding this has been a remarkable primary season so far in that regard. As far as the VP thing goes, who knows? I don't think that's going to make any difference. Bush 41 was the one who made the phrase "voo doo" economics a household word.

[booksenkatz]

36. You know what?

When I went back and read again what Dean said, it really can't be classified as "an attack." In fact, I can envision myself saying that about a close friend. Depends on the tone of voice, too. If that's all he said, then I was being way too harsh in joining the media in calling it an attack.

And you're right, there needs to be some nudging, I suppose. Thanks for reminding me of that.

[caledesi]

16. Poppy attacked Reagan about his "voodoo economics" and

guess what? Reagan chose his as VP. It's politics, plain and simple. They will turn "on a dime."

[boxster]

37. Reagan and Bush did it, so

I think Clark and Dean can, as well.

Remember - Bush is the one who came up with the term, "Voodoo Economics", in the debates.

If they can overcome those debates, Dean/Clark can, as well. They both know that the entire idea here is to recapture the flag.

[Copperred]

41. The best ticket for all is DEAN/KUCINICH

Both are civilians, both can honestly say they are men of Peace and Prosperity. Neither have any propensity to war. They can lead the US, and the world will also follow them.

[caledesi]

43. I would support Dean/Kucinich. Sounds okay to me.

[Chico Man]

8. Headline is misleading

Dean's criticism of Clark is hardly offensive. It is actually constructive. Looks like the powers that be are trying to light fires between the two candidates.

[robbedvoter]

11. Clark dealing with this right now on Today

not mentioning Dean, sorry guys.
He said that the war violated the rule of law, that he was always against it and learned that one should never engaged in hypotheticals in a campaign (i.e - voting for leverage).
Later, Ruslut taled about the perfect storm forming on W - no Saddam, no WMD, bidy bags and shitty economy - and the race tightening.

[Pepperbelly]

13. Disappointed in Dean on this ...

but I shouldn't be. His supporters certainly aren't above ignoring nuance for cheap shots.

[Atlant]

19. Projecting again, I see. (NT)

[maggrwaggr]

22. Why? I was shocked, too. Dean always says what I think. It's weird

he's channeling ..... me! :)

[Ediacara]

25. and cheap shots NEVER come from Clarkies?

aww the gospel according to Pepperbelly

[Pepperbelly]

47. point to a single attack I have made on Dean.

Just one. Shit, i would be happy to vote for him if he gets the nomination. Thus, I would truly LOVE for you to show me taking any shot at Dean, much less a cheap one.

He disappointed me in this. Sorry.

[Ediacara]

50. try looking

at the post I responded to. It's not a cheap shot at Dean, but Dean supporters. You're being obtuse if you can't see this PB.

[LizW]

31. Damn, Pepperbelly

Speaking of cheap shots, your post would be a prime example.

We get that you're personally invested in this race because of your family relationship to Clark. I don't have any problem with your going after Dean (although it would be nice if you could do it on substance rather than style). But I'm really sick of you dissing Dean supporters as a whole because of the actions of a few.

Insulting an entire group of fellow Democrats because you don't like the candidate they support is unhelpful and certainly doesn't promote the interests of your favored candidate.

(pissy mode off)

[Pepperbelly]

48. nor does it help your guy when ...

your people do that. In fact, I repeat my challenge that I made above. Find a single post I made attacking Dean. Just one.

You won't be able to.

The reason: I have dissed none of the candidates except on Lieberman on two occasions when he enraged me. Oh, and once, in trying to get people to stop bashing everyone so crazily, I bashed each candidate in turn in a long, sarcastic paragraph in an effort to show how silly the bashing was. My big one against Dean in that was to note that on occasion, he looks like a woodchuck.

I suspect that what you should do is actually be certain what you are talking about before hitting the enter key. In addition, if you are tired of me taking shots at the people taking shots at my candidate, perhaps you should talk to your people about not starting 20 Clark bashing threads a day. I will cease all shots when the ones directed at me cease.

Unless you have a problem with basic fairness and freedom of speech, you might reconsider your rather broad statements and in fact, show a post in which I actually painted with that broad a brush. I do not think you can do that either.

Pffft.

I have wasted enough time on this nonsense.

[Vikingking66]

33. It was one line! The reporter manufactured the cheap shot! NOT DEAN

Read the article, this is a con job.

[caledesi]

44. You are so smart Vik....That's it...a con job.

Again...this is politics...Bush I disparaged Reagan on his "voodoo economics" and this resulted in Bush I being the VP.

Get over it, folks.

[Forkboy]

42. riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

His supporters certainly aren't above ignoring nuance for cheap shots

but of course,since YOU said this it isn't a cheap shot.

Pot...meet kettle.

[Pepperbelly]

49. I give what I get forkboy ...

or could that be a little too nuanced for you?

[wndycty]

14. Thats funny. . .

The Dean people sure had different attitude towards Clark when they were trying to get Clark to be Deans VP.

[sham]

39. That's because we THOUGHT he was a Democrat at the time.

[caledesi]

45. Nothing new here...move on.

This is what happens during primaries. Let's not be naive. Cheap shots all over the place and guess what? In the end, those cheap shots mean nothing...again, take the case of Bush I vs. Reagan...calling on Reagan for his "voodoo economics"...Bush I ended up being VP. Go figure!

Don't let the repugs jump on this as the "division of the Dems"...excuse me, but look at history. It's f*cking politics.

[dArKeR]

17. Dean is 'AntiLying' not 'AntiWar'!

[PAMod]

21. Did eveybody actually read the article?

This wasn't an attack by any stretch.

An attack would go like this: " is once again waffling on this issue - he would suck as a president because he is constantly committing mistakes on the stump, blah blah blah"

If this is the worst thing Dean says about Clark, I'm gonna start believing the conspiracy theories that they have a deal.

[Orangepeel]

23. This was the offensive? Has this reporter ever *heard* a Dean speech?

When Dean goes on the offensive, you'll recognize it. (and this ain't it)

[Atlant]

27. Wonderful!!!

> When Dean goes on the offensive, you'll recognize it.

Thank you! That was my biggest laugh of the day so far. :-)

I heard Dr. Dean in person yesterday, and you are SO correct!

And I'm mad as hell and "Want my Country Back!"

Atlant

[PAMod]

28. My thoughts exactly.

I think supporters of the "other" candidates would love it if Dean & Clark actually went after one another.

[caledesi]

46. Dean and Clark will be on the Dem ticket...mark my words.

[expatriot]

53. The question is, in which order?

I would love to see a Dean-Clark but wouldn't moan and groan if it were Clark-Dean.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

29. Aye!

I even doubt the veracity of the article. It takes a very small quote ("I was shocked") out of context of even a sentence. Dean's campaign issued a statement, the only nice statement that I saw from a candidate, saying that we all need time to learn Clark's policies. The author was surely trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

[janx]

54. That was the first thing I noticed--the manipulation of quotes.

I wouldn't believe it for anything. Lord, the media gets more and more tabloid by the hour.

[Vikingking66]

32. What a lousy article

He didn't say anything! He said he was shocked on Clark, then said Clark would explain his position AND THEN THE REST OF THE DAMNED ARTICLE WAS ON OTHER ISSUES ENTIRELY. That's lousy journalism.

[Romberry]

34. Shorter version of this twisted storyline.

"Lessee you and him fight."

Sorry, there is no there, there.

[w4rma]

55. Clark on whether he'd have voted on the IWR and Dean's response

Clark Says He Would Have Voted for War
…
General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. Democrats sought that provision without success.

"At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question," General Clark said.

A moment later, he said: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
"I want to clarify — we're moving quickly here," Ms. Jacoby said. "You said you would have voted for the resolution as leverage for a U.N.-based solution."

"Right," General Clark responded. "Exactly."

General Clark said he saw his position on the war as closer to that of members of Congress who supported the resolution — Representative Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri and Senators Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, John Kerry of Massachusetts and John Edwards of North Carolina — than that of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who has been the leading antiwar candidate in the race.

Still, asked about Dr. Dean's criticism of the war, General Clark responded: "I think he's right. That in retrospect we should never have gone in there. I didn't want to go in there either. But on the other hand, he wasn't inside the bubble of those who were exposed to the information."
…
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/19/politics/campaigns/19CLAR.html

Clark Explains Statement on Authorization for Iraq War
…
"I never would have voted for war," he said here this afternoon in an interview and in response to a question after a lecture at the University of Iowa. "What I would have voted for is leverage. Leverage for the United States to avoid a war. That's what we needed to avoid a war."

Speaking about the resolution on Thursday, General Clark said, "At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question."

He then added: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways, because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position. On balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
About Iraq, he said "There was never an imminent threat," and called the war "a major blunder."

"We're not the sort of `you're with us or against' kind of people," he said.

"We're a come-and-join-with-us kind of people," he told a crowd of 1,000 in the main lounge of the Iowa Memorial Union. "Americans know in their hearts that you don't make our country safer by erecting walls to keep others out. You make us safer by building bridges to reach out.

"We also have to recognize that force should be used only as a last resort, when all other means have failed."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/politics/campaigns/20CLAR.html

…
"I was shocked" by General Clark's initial comment on the resolution, Dr. Dean, former governor of Vermont, said in an interview as he flew from a rally in Boston to a series of fund-raisers in New York. "I was even more shocked that he switched the next day."

"He still has to clarify his position," the candidate added.
…
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/24/politics/campaigns/24DEAN.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=401401

[fabius]

56. Dean needs to keep the focus on Bu$h

...and not pick up the REpug talking points.

Repugs are getting scared. That's where a lot of the anti-Clark crap is coming from. They should, I think any of the top tier Dem. candidates are looking pretty formadible to Shrub right now.

Lieberman shows up pretty well in polls but Repubs shouldn't worry about him too much, he's probably more conservative than Arnold.