Clark's Bid Prompts Some Dean Supporters to Reconsider

[dolstein]

By Dan Balz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, September 28, 2003; Page A04


DOVER, N.H., Sept. 27 -- New Hampshire Democrat Larry Taylor was leaning toward supporting former Vermont governor Howard Dean for president until he turned out on a damp Friday night at New England College in Henniker, N.H., to see retired Army Gen. Wesley K. Clark. By the time Clark had finished his town hall meeting, Taylor was ready to change his allegiance.

"I think Clark can win," Taylor said. "I don't think Dean can win. I think Dean's going to be pegged as too liberal. He doesn't have the kind of military background and some of the strength that Clark seems to have."

Whatever else Clark's late entry into the battle for the Democratic presidential nomination has done, it has forced the issue of electability back to the top of the agenda for many Democratic and independent voters.

His candidacy threatens all of the other nine Democrats in the race in some respect, but here in New Hampshire, where Dean has risen to the top of the field, it has changed the dynamic of a race that, until now, was shaped principally by the former Vermont governor.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10547-2003Sep27.html

Now I'm no fan of Howard Dean, but I'm even less of a fan of this style of journalism, most notoriously practised by Richard Berke of the New York Times. In this kind of journalism, the journalist starts with an angle (e.g., "Dean fans are switching to Clark" or, in the case of Berke, "Democratic Insiders are Hoping that Gore won't run"), and then interviews a very small number of people -- who might be representative, but then again who might not -- and then makes sweeping generalizations on the basis of these interviews. Of course, because the journalist selects who to interview and selects which quotes to use, it's not all that difficult to back up any proposition the journalist wants to advance.

I suppose that "Clark's Bid Prompts Three Dean Supporters to Reconisder" doesn't have quite the same ring to it, but as a purely factual matter, that's the only conclusion that can actually be drawn from this article.

[roughsatori]

1. My local news in Philadelphia uses that "technique" all the time

"Residents dislike the Mayors new policy," intones the Anchor. Then they cut to the streets to interview 2 people who support their claim--who always happen to be standing by ready to be cued.

When reporters and writers do that it makes me furious, even when they are using this propaganda technique to promote things I agree with. :puke:

[seventhson]

2. How about "Clark's Bid Prompts Three Stooges ...."

slap each other silly and make dumb foley noises


It would be about the same thing

[Rose Siding]

3. I've also noticed

for whatever polls are worth at this point, that Dean isn't usually the one whose numbers are effected as strongly as some others since Clark announced.

[jamesinca]

11. It was released in a poll the day after Clark announced

I believe it was Gallup. Most people that are behind Dean are those that watch politics, that is how they know his name. Those who don't really follow politics recognize the name of Liberman, from his VP run with Gore. All of the other front runners have a mix of those populations. Those that are trailing in the polls have very loyal groups that watch politics. When Clark entered the race, he took the biggest chunk out of Liberman, simply because he had the name recognition. Clark has a loyal group of people that have been following him, I think they are all on the DU. He also picked up a lot of the "fair weather fans" if you will, from Liberman. He took some out of Kerry and Gephart, but not as much as Liberman. Dean people right now still are your political junkies. Most people outside of that do not know his name as was revealed by the Gallup poll.

[Romberry]

46. From the poll results I have seen analyzed...

...a lot of people seem to think Wesley's first name is "General". :)

Seriously though, polls are wacky things. If you drop "General" from in front of Wesley Clark's name, his numbers go down. If you add "Doctor" in from of Dean's name, his poll numbers go up. What's it mean? I think it means that it's still way, way early and there are a lot of people that really don't know a lot about any of the candidates which results in reactions that are affected by things like titles that make them feel more assured.

We have a long way to go. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

[DJcairo]

21. New Zogby poll shows Clark cutting into Dean substantially in NH

While Kerry has risen.

www.zogby.com

[0007]

30. Ross Perot was the wave for a while

.....and his numbers were high, during all the raw flap, remember?

Wesley goes up and down like a used tea bag. Clark will soon be weak tea.

[MODemocrat]

40. Two military men for President and Vice President

Where do the civilians fit in to this picture?

[Cappurr]

4. Well....there were a few more than three

But the headline wouldn't be as sexy. I understand why some Dean supporters are angry about Clark. Dean has been working his ass off, speaking out bravely on the issues and bringing in lots of new voters. And here comes this good-looking guy, with 4 silver stars on his chest at the last minute who says "I'm going to be President".

So they are pissed. But it isn't Clark they should be pissed at. It is the reality of politics. Electibility is important. And Dean has some problems in that area. This election is important. If the Dems can get someone who can appeal to independents, moderates and Dems, well thats what they are going do.

Dean deserves all the credit in the world. But if he loses the nomination put his loss in context with what Al Gore went through. Dean doesn't have a thing to complain about.

[dolstein]

7. Only three were actual Dean supporters

A fourth was identified as having "leaned" toward Dean, but was now undecided. Clearly, you can't count that person as having switched from Dean to Clark. None of the other people quoted were identified as Dean supporters.

[private_ryan]

34. could not have said it myself any better

Dean has moved or is too much to the left. He would lose the election

[Ardee]

45. damn the left

why not nominate Attila the Hun, or perhaps persuade Bush to become a democrat? Would they be far enough to the right for your acceptance?
Dean is the epitomy of centrism, moving left is away from the Bush ideology, is opposing Bush genuinely, is unavoidable if you really want someone in the WH who is different from its present occupant.....BAH!

[ozone_man]

51. Yup, Dean is not left of center in any reach.

He is a centrist. A "blue dog Democrat" in VT journalist circles. Lieberman, Clark, Kerry represent the right wing of the Democratic Party and will not be distinguishable from Bush. This really is the golden opportunity to get a real people's candidate in, since Bush will lose by a landslide.

[JNelson6563]

38. key phrase

It is the reality of politics.

To be truly accurate I would have said "the ugly reality.." but that's just me.

I think certain somebodies weren't seeing their particular choice(s) making the desired headway in the campaign and so they chose someone who they thought would. I think the only thing the right really has to throw at Dean is he's "too librul" which we know to be untrue and will be easily obliterated in the GE. I think the backers of Clark (and no, not those of you among us peasants--I mean the big Somebody type backers) know this "too librul" charge against Dean is easily answered too.

I am not angry at Clark for entering, for all I know he really DOES want to be President. What I don't like is the idea of certain Somebodies thinking they know what is better for us than we do.

Of course we Irish have never much liked folks making decisions for us. Ask anyone ;-)

Julie

[Adamocrat]

5. This Dean supporter...

STILL supports Howard Dean for President! I like Clark. I'd be happy if he is the nominee, but I'm supporting Governor Dean all the way.

Cheers,
ADAM

[dkd021]

8. Dean's not that inspiring to me

I was at a Dean rally at Georgia State Univ a couple of weeks ago. He didn't really impress me. I can tell you he used the phrase "Kenneth Lay and the boys" way too many times regarding everything from tax cuts to health insurance. This was right after the debate and the controversy over his one-liner from Carville. Also, I was standing about 1/3 of the way up the stairs where he made his entrance. He didn't seem to genuine about shaking the hands of his supporters on his way down to the stage. He was more concerned about talking to a staffer about the size of the crowd. Is it about him or America?

I still think Lieberman would have the best chance to work with a Republican Congress. I think he could at least get the ball rolling. All of the others will simply cause division, but it's only my opinion.

[Kahuna]

12. Or a strong candidate with crossover appeal can give ..

congressional dems some coattails and maybe we take back the senate. Think about it.

[baby_bear]

13. Good comment and welcome, dkd201

I hope I got your handle right. In any case, I agree with you and WELCOME to DU!!!

Cheers,
s_m

[thebigidea]

26. yeah, we best avoid division

"I still think Lieberman would have the best chance to work with a Republican Congress. I think he could at least get the ball rolling. All of the others will simply cause division, but it's only my opinion."

yup, the ball can roll right into the Republican's pocket.

if Lieberman has the best chance to work with a Republican Congress and not cause division - er, why not just vote for Bush and avoid all that nasty untidiness and difference of opinion?

Those divisions reaaally turn off swing voters. Best to keep goosestepping in unison, eh?

"He was more concerned about talking to a staffer about the size of the crowd. Is it about him or America?"

I hear he doesn't really like kissing babies, too. What a phony!

sigh.

[Trajan]

35. You MUST be an Independent ...

Because Democrats today DONT want to work with the GOP to pass the extreme right-wing Republican agenda ....

GOP policies have NEVER brought benefit to the citizens as a whole, and therefore neednt be promoted by those citizens, OR their representatives ....

If your looking to 'help' the GOP congressional majority in their mission, then perhaps you are in the wrong forum ....

[The Magistrate]

41. Indeed, Marcius Ulpius

Should the Congress remain in the hands of Republicans, these must be fought, and fought without mercy, by a Democratic Executive.

An ability, even, and certainly a desire, to "get along" with those reptiles is no credential, but rather, a disqualification, for a Presidential candidate of the Democratic Party today.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. What Do You Think of Clark's Ability to Push Military Budget Cuts?

I am hopeful that Clark's military standing, when coupled with the Presidency's increasing ability to set the tone on the budget, would allow him to do what no other Democratic President could do: make good on his vow to cut the military budget (by as much as 25%, potentially) while more fully funding other programs.

DTH

[The Magistrate]

44. He Would Seem, My Friend, Better Positioned Than Most To Do It

It could not be coherently argued he is naive on the subject, or is "against the military", or any of the other bromides regularly employed against persons proposing such reforms. He certainly knows where the waste is located, and the difference between muscle and fat in a military organism.

[KoKo]

6. This sounds like "Advocacy Journalism." I wouldn't like it no matter what

candidate is the winner or victim of this kind of article. I don't know what's happened to Dan Balz lately. I saw him doing a commentary last week on one of the pundit shows on cable...and he seemed more conservative than he has in the past. I don't know what happens to some of these guys and gals.......

Anyway, I wouldnt' take this article seriously.....sounds more like he's trying to start a rumor to buzz around Washinton...BUT the press went after Al Gore.....so maybe.....we SHOULD take this seriously.....that they are going to do this to EVERY DEM Candidate. So this week Clark is up.....and then next Dean and the next it will be Kerry and so on. And each week one of our major Newspaper writers will volunteer to pen an unflattering piece by interviewing "un-named sources" or interviewing "citizens in the local pizza parlor who have changed a vote" or who knows what all.

It's still to soon to be thinking about who's up and who's down in the polls...as cast in stone.

[Kahuna]

9. This doesn't surprise me.. I've insisted all along..

that Dean supporters were flipping. I provided evidence too. First, if we take DU as an example. Right here on DU a lot of Dean supporters have flipped. Also the letters on the draftclark petition had a lot of Dean supporters saying they would flip if Clark ran.

When you get polls saying that a certain candidate is the strongest candidate in the general electon you have to expect support to shift. I really wouldn't be surprised if Clark actually won or came in second in NH.

[depakid]

20. Insist away- but don't use this forum as an example

or the Washington Post, for that matter.

Most of the people on DU are news & politics junkies. We're like snakes who taste the political wind with our tongues. Believe me, we're anything but a representative sample.

Similarly, the Washington Post has had it out for Dean ever since his campaign became a success and would love to prop up any candidate that is more palatable to its established (read Washington insider) tastes. Right now Clark's that man.

The Post no longer bears any resemblance to an objective newspaper. That died with Katherine Graham. It's pretty well corporate center right, both on its editorial pages and in its copy. And like any snake, it hisses when its threatened. If, as you insist, people actually do turn in droves to Gen. Clark, expect the Post to turn on him just as quickly and with greater vehemence. That holds doubly true if Gen. Clark turns out to be a moderately progressive candidate.

[dArKeR]

10. Email the idiot, liar, or Whore!

A Dean supporter voting for a Republican. OK, I buy that BalzWhore!

[e-mail]

WP Editors
[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]

[e-mail]+++

Clark's Bid Prompts Some Dean Supporters to Reconsider
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10547-2003Sep27.html


--------------

Everyone's doing a great job at the DU but don't slack off! Keep pounding these liars until we shackles are on them! They read our email. I've gotten answers from the WP and you'd be surprised of the content!

DON"T EVER use swear words! I'm not saying sound intellectual. Just be yourself. But I do believe you're wasting your time with vulgar language because it's probably filtered and immediately deleted.

You actually wouldn't believe how many reporters hold simular views to the DU. I believe they're forced to publish stories biased for the Repuke power base. I conclude this by the number of different reporters I've written and their responses. (And it hasn't been 1000s not even hundreds. Just when it's obvious lies. I consider it a valid sample.)

-------
I just don't believe the Clark thing happening has anything to do with American citizens. It's a power elite thing. No matter what anyone says, DEAN is grassroots and represents The People. Let's do our best to make The People win this time!

[joe_momma]

14. yeah pArKEr...

that would be like voting for a former governor, son of privelege that pretends to understand the common man.

But seriously, Dean is really grassroots. I mean, wasn't he born in some small midwestern town to a farm family? And it doesn't get any more grassroots than the internet.

Damn any man that gives 33 years of his life to serving and protecting his country. Why, he could've been charging me too much for an office visit and a penecillin shot or something.

[JohnKleeb]

15. Thats not what grassroots means

I thought your guy Clark was born in Chicago? Not that I care my guy is a humble man as well who has maybe not in the military but worked hard to make life tor his constiuents a better place. I also really dont care whether the candiate grew up rich or poor, my heroes are RFK and FDR both Rich guys but had their eye out for the little guy.

[joe_momma]

18. The point is...

Dean supporters seem to think that their guy is not a politician that will say anything to get elected. This guy gets the nomination, and we will spend another 4 years whining about Bush and his handlers.

What is grassroots? A groundswell of support from upper-middle class white folks? Ask Clinton about grassroots, Dean couldn't carry his jockstrap.

Kucinich? I respect him greatly, but he is done.

[Trajan]

37. Playing one Democratic party candidate against another ....

Why ? ...

WHY promote one by denigrating another ? ....

BOTH are worthy candidates in their own right: ... to attempt to sully Dean, and thereby 'elevate' Clark, ... is cannibalistic at best .....

[Selwynn]

16. I completely agree with your comments about the "journalism"

Very good points, and yeah - that is frustrating. Sometimes I fall for it, hopefully most of the time I won't.

[Julien Sorel]

17. It's using anectdotal evidence to back up broader-based data.

It's perfectly acceptable, as long as the broad data exist, which is the case here. It doesn't even need to be reported.

[tsipple]

19. Where's the "Broad Data"?

The polling data I've seen so far suggests Clark is drawing from Gephardt, of all people. (Nobody expected that.)

[Julien Sorel]

23. Clark was at 2%; he entered and

went to 10%, while Dean fell about 10 points. Kerry edged up some, but not enough to make up the difference. It's logical to assume that most of those votes left Dean and went to Clark -- the alternative is that they were spread out among the other candidates, and Clark drew other votes from those candidates. It's not ironclad, but it's reasonable enough to pass muster, which is probably all this reporter cared about with a deadline and no real story staring them in the face. Part of the way the game works.

[depakid]

22. There's a term in law called results oriented jurisprudence

and I think it goes hand in hand with your astute analysis here. Start with an angle (the easy one being "we want George Bush to be president") then selectively cut and paste from a small number of sometimes equivocal cases, marshall the arguments (e.g. Equal Protection & 3 USC Section 5) and then rationalize the result that you'd already determined. Voila! Bush is president, our various (conflicts of) interests are safe and the case has no value as precedent.

In fact, we're so cool and unaccountible, that we can turn the equal protection argument around and use it to deny truly injured workers the right to sue Alabama in a pending set of cases that we know we're going to rule on in a mere 9 weeks!

That's basically how the Post works these days. Sad, but true.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

24. ...cuz the peeps arent leaving...

The title "Clark's Bid Prompts Some Dean Supporters to Reconsider should actually read "Clark's Bid Prompts Some (CORPORATE) Supporters to Reconsider"

[mhr]

25. All of the Ugly Truths About Clark

can be found here:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles8/DVNS_Wesley-Clark.htm

[robbedvoter]

29. No sewer left unturned - Balz was counting on you when writing that

Isn't it touching when you see stuff like "Drudge did his homework" and sources like Novak et al?

[0007]

32. You've got to admitt that the truth is there

I hope you took time to read it all and ch. out the links.

I was big on Clark until I found what he was made of, as much as I dislike Drudge and Novak I do find an element of truth about Clark that isn't presidental.

The fact is that the people can't be fooled for too long.

[robbedvoter]

36. I "admitt" nothing. The greens/Rove are at it again

I remember the old websites mixing Chomski, Nader and Ken Starr. I also remember the smears against Gore.
I am dealing with the attacks from the left and right against Clark - but when a website is set up for the SOLE PURPOSE os attacking a dem candidate shown to beat bush Gallup - Clark 49-bush 46) - one has to wonder about the motivation.

[The Magistrate]

43. No Wonder Needed About The Motivation, Sir

It is to do everything possible to secure future rule by the most reactionary elements of the right, whether due to allegiance to this, or on the foolish principle that only this will lead to the people supporting "true left" positions at last. A thoroughgoing Leninist would have no difficulty asserting many of these people are mere agents in fascist pay.

[0007]

52. True indeed, Sir.

n/t

[lalajohns]

49. Thanks for the information

*me smell a rat about the the one and only "General Clark"

:kick:

[Justice]

27. Person Quoted in Washington Post

Look, say what you like about Dean, but I went to the Clark rally with Lesley Gaita - I know her - she is representative of the people who were there. I am telling you, Clark appeals to 50+ year olds who remember Vietman, but who also remember (or had relatives in) World War II and the Korean War. Dean supporters - what age brackets are they in?

Clark's supporters do tend to be people who know we need a strong defense - and when you LISTEN to him instead of just bashing him, - you realize Wes Clark seems more reluctant to go to war than most. He says we should intervene/go to war only when "we can make a difference" He believed in Kosovo because he wanted to save Albanian lives but wanted ground troops to minimize killing. He was right about ground troops. He wanted to go to Rwanda, but could not persuade people to do so. This guy is a decent human being who cares about our relationships with other countries, and cares about people who don't have 2 nickels to rub together.

Dean is untested on war and foreign policy. He is - you can't deny that. That scares me. He also comes across as intense but in a Al Gore way - I can see him sighing at George Bush.

Dean seems a little too calculated to me - I gotta say, he speaks like a man who lives in a world where he gets what he wants. That is George Bush's world. I even heard someone say (not me) that Dean boasting about his two African American college roommates made them feel he planned to run for President all his life and asked for minority roommates, so he could look less privileged. I know this is overly harsh - but honestly, let's stop pretending Dean is the everyman - he is not. He has lots of good ideas, lots of energy, but he is not precisely what you paint him to be.

[JNelson6563]

39. Some rich stuff....

Dean is untested on war and foreign policy. He is - you can't deny that. That scares me. He also comes across as intense but in a Al Gore way - I can see him sighing at George Bush.

Thank you so much for inserting your fear into the conversation. So I take it confidnece frightens you? Is it just iwth men or do confident women frighten you too? Remember hwo Hillary scared teh poop out of Freepers? They don't much care for confidence either (not to be confused with cockiness and arrogance--that they like, from men)

Dean seems a little too calculated to me - I gotta say, he speaks like a man who lives in a world where he gets what he wants.

Wow! That's a horrible thing for a President, to be able to achieve his goals! Frightening!!!

That is George Bush's world.

Um, it could be the world of anyone with determination and *shudder* confidence. There are ways to achieve what you want without evil doings like the BFEE uses. I personally have achieved much of what I want and am working on the rest, undeterred.

I even heard someone say (not me) that Dean boasting about his two African American college roommates made them feel he planned to run for President all his life and asked for minority roommates, so he could look less privileged.

OMG!! Now I have seen it all. A "Dem" using the old "I once heard" method of trying to destroy another Dem! Are you lacking the dreaded confidence that your man could make the race without this sort of reich-wing methodology? It would appear so.

I know this is overly harsh - but honestly, let's stop pretending Dean is the everyman - he is not. He has lots of good ideas, lots of energy, but he is not precisely what you paint him to be.

Considering the arguments you put forth might not make the cut of the National Inquirer, don't be too surpirsed if your post doesn't throw the election to your man. Oy!!

Julie--who marvels at the eat-our-own mentality coupled with obvious result of us not holding power in any branch of gubberment....

[robbedvoter]

28. They are trying hard to divide us. They goaded Dean into attacking Clark

at the debate and he didn't take the bait ("I'll use my discretion - Governor - a rebuttal?)
The NYT had the audacity to imply that our sign at the debate (which is my signature as well) was directed against Dean instead of bush.
You're right about Berke the Jerke - and Nagourney carries his sleezy mantle at the NYT.

[kstewart33]

31. Article focuses on the key question

The key issue is electability, as the article rightly points out. Clark is electable, Dean is quite questionable on this question. It's good to see someone raising this issue before the public.

[Oreegone]

33. Now Dean may not be electable????

I am rolling on the floor here, laughing loudly at the people who change their mind daily with the breeze of the freepers. OOOhhh a few people on a street corner who may be friends of the journalist or he sorted out MAY not give their support to Dean when we don't know if they ever did....how impressive. I have been a Dean supporter but now I will go out and change my registration to Republican so I can vote for Clark. Oh thats right he changed from a Reagan lover to a Democrat what a relief.....:crazy:

[Kahuna]

53. NH voters NEVER thought Dean was electable...

remember the polls that said, two thirds of NH democrats believed that bush would win in '04? They didn't believe that any of the nine candidates could unseat him so they supported Dean because they liked him anyways. :eyes:

Enter General Clark. The perception that bush is unbeatable has changed. Thank God for that! So they are no longer looking at their primary as a beauty contest. They're getting pumped that they could actually vote for someone who can win the whole thing. Nobody should be pissed because of that. Yet a lot of people are. Go figure.

[Southsideirish]

47. Courageous Howard Dean broke ground for opportunist Clark.

Just like Gene McCarthy and Bobby Kennedy - Howard Dean was out there months ago - when it counted - warning people about Bush and Iraq as Clark lurked beneath the radar - content to have Dean do the "heavy lifting" for him. When the going was safe and the way had been cleared - then "Democrat" Clark made his grand entrance.

[haymaker]

48. Just more of the same bullshit.

Anything to bring down Dean. Do you think this will help you save Lieberman?

:boring:

[kayleybeth]

50. I don't know about NH

but I do know a lot of people here in the South who have switched from Dean to Clark. I doubt if it will make a lot of difference, Dean's most committed supporters aren't going to switch and they're the ones who are most valuable to Dean.

I think Clark's base will be mostly those who hadn't already committed to a candidate. I was a swing voter leaning toward Dean until Clark got in the race. I had even donated money to the Dean campaign. I just think (and this is just my OPINION) that Clark has a better chance of beating shrub. I'll happily vote for Dean or another Dem if Clark doesn't get nominated.

Kayeleigh