Rivals Target Dean's Blunt Comments

[DoveTurnedHawk]

Unscripted Remarks On Key Issues Seen As Big Liabilities

<...>

Dean's rivals and some Democratic strategists see the former Vermont governor's comments past and present as among his biggest liabilities. Sens. John F. Kerry (Mass.) and Joseph I. Lieberman (Conn.) and Rep. Richard A. Gephardt (Mo.) are turning Dean's words against him almost daily, calling into question his commitment to Democratic causes such as Medicare and the Middle East, and portraying him as a flip-flopper on other issues. Since running for president, Dean has switched his position on at least three politically sensitive topics: Social Security, free trade and the Cuba trade embargo. In all three cases, his new position comports with the views of the key voters he is courting.

<...>

Dean is getting hit the hardest over Medicare. Gephardt and others have accused Dean of siding with then-House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) in the 1995 fight to slow the growth of Medicare from 10 percent to 7 percent. Dean last weekend said the charge is false, but it is not.

Although Dean never explicitly said he was siding with Gingrich, he did endorse a GOP proposal, backed by the then-speaker, to slow Medicare's growth. He told a Vermont newspaper in 1995 that he could "fully subscribe" to slowing the rate of the program's growth to 7 percent, which would have been tantamount to cutting Medicare spending.

Dean is trying to blur the issue by saying he sided with Clinton in the fight because Clinton eventually signed a bill, in 1997, trimming Medicare's growth. But that bill scaled back the growth by $115 billion over five years, compared with the $270 billion over seven years that Dean had advocated. In 1995, Clinton opposed the plan endorsed by Dean. Jeremy Ben-Ami, Dean's policy adviser, said Dean was not alone among Democrats backing changes to Medicare in 1995, but that was a minority view in the party.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30685-2003Oct1.html

DTH

[Julien Sorel]

1. Sauce, or in this case, slime, for the goose.

[Jim Sagle]

2. This thread ain't nuthin' but DLC shit and neither are his "rivals".

[DoveTurnedHawk]

3. Sorry You Don't Like the News (eom)

DTH

[liberalnurse]

4. The new is just projection....

I'm not the least bit swayed....so there :)

[liberalnurse]

5. You'll need a bigger rubber worm (fake one)

to bait the likes of a true Deanie!

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

41. subtitle:

Unscripted Remarks On Key Issues Seen As Big Liabilities...

...snip...







...By, surprise, his opponents! From the article:



...Kerry said recently...

...Gephardt and others have accused Dean...

...Gephardt and others have criticized Dean for saying...

...Kerry has hit Dean for suggesting...

...Kerry and Lieberman have accused Dean...



If this is "News," I'd like to see your definition of "dogshit."

[DoveTurnedHawk]

45. A Public Service Announcement

If this is "News," I'd like to see your definition of "dogshit."

Please feel free to direct your comments toward the Washington Post:

Q: How do I contact The Post?

A: washingtonpost.com (the Internet edition of the paper) can be contacted via e-mail at [e-mail]. The Washington Post newspaper can be reached during normal business hours at 202-334-6000.

If your comments are directed at me for some bizarre reason, please note that they are duly noted and ignored. I will continue to post news stories of all types in LBN, despite the squawking of certain (apparently hypersensitive) Dean supporters.

DTH

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

50. Another "Public Service Announcement."

Please feel free to direct your comments to the Washington poster.

[ModerateMiddle]

21. Typical Deanie response

Anyone saying anything untoward about *the* candidate is DLC or Repuke-lite.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

42. Read #41 and get back to me.

[shance]

6. DTH***I like many of your threads, but when you attack Dean

you limit your perspective and isolate two groups that should be working hand in hand* to build a team that can and will replace the current Administration that has created the neverending amount of problems facing us. These threads make the Clark/Dean issue counter productive and divisive, and ultimately make individuals like me want to defend Dean even more.

We have too many issues that stand to GREATLY and potentially negatively effect each of our lives and they need to be addressed before 2004, such as electronic voting, a dangerous Energy bill, more assinine judicial appointments to be sure, not to mention an assault on California right now that may leave us with a Republican governor named Arnold Schwarzenegger. If that wont sober ya up, I dont know what will. Dems need to be huddling together tight not throwing useless sticks and stones.

I'm not fully sure why you choose to attack Dean with these articles instead of putting your energy towards going after the current Administration who are the true offenders. I know you will probably say "they started it" or "read the article", but we all know that these articles are going to be both positive and negative for Clark and Dean.

Please keep your eye on the prize. We need your enthusiasm and energy but we all need to direct it towards creating possibilities instead of destroying them. Whenever we repeatedly knock a candidate down merely for the sake of propping ours up, I believe a negative message and energy is sent out infiltrating the party overall.

Clark is a good man and a good candidate. I support Dean though, and truthfully, your posts wont alter my opinion, or probably many if any others. We are Democrats, and Dems like to decide primarily for ourselves, just as you have done in supporting Clark. Good for you. Im sure you have very valid reasons why you support Clark.

Its been a close race between those two for me, but I prefer Dean because he reflects so much of what I feel and believe is right. That doesnt mean Clark doesnt, it just means I prefer Dean. Thats it. I support Dean as much as you support Clark. I want to believe more in Clark. It is true that I am worried about some inconsistencies, JUST as you are worried about some inconsistencies with Dean. Goes both way, and neither is right or wrong.

Dont fight your Dem buddies. We are on the same team, we just like a different quarterback.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

7. Sorry You Don't Like the News, Either

You might want to take it up with the Washington Post.

DTH

[JNelson6563]

10. "news" haha mmm hmm

Yes, the fact that the other candidates don't like Dean, that's news alright.

DTH I had to smile when I came in this morn and was scrolling down LBN I caught your headline. Rolled my eyes, scanned over to Author and smiled. You are one reliable fellow. If there is a negative story to be found on Dean anywhere on the planet, I can count on you to have it posted here first thing in the AM.

It makes me wonder, aren't there any positive articles about your candidate? If so, that leads to the question of your motives behind your choices.

But hey, we're all on the same team, right? :eyes:

Julie

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

43. I posted the same logic two hours later in post #41

Hey gang, guess what? Dean's opponents are saying awful things about him. What do you think of that NEWS?


Where's the shoe scraper?





On edit- Oh, there it is.

[Skwmom]

18. Since when is truth an attack?

Tbis sounds like the Bush party line.

[ModerateMiddle]

23. yeah, and since when is quoting the WaPo

considered "an attack".

Oh, I know. When it doesn't just say Dean is the frontrunner and presumed next President. I can't count the number of reporters and columnists who have been summarily dismissed by the Dean supporters here at DU.

[ClintonTyree]

8. You and BillyBunter............

have done nothing but bash Dean since you've been here. Is this the type of people Clark has backing him? The kind that would rather tear everybody else down to make their candidate look bigger? Always accentuating the negative. At least Dean knows which party he belongs to, that much can't be said of Clark.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skwmom]

19. Truth does not = bashing.

[farmbo]

25. Sorry... calling Dean "slime" is!

See BB post, above.

[Julien Sorel]

44. Errrr, where did I call Dean 'slime?'

I think you need to re-read that post. In fact, let me save you the trouble. Dean slams other candidates, and has since the start of his little travelling show. The other candidates are now slamming Dean back. There is an expression: 'sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander,' meaning if it's good enough for one, it's good enough for all: in other words, what comes around, goes around. My 'bash,' was a play on that expression. Dean slimes other candidates, they slime him back. I hope that makes things clearer for you now. But never fear -- if you want to think of Dean as slime, be my guest.

[farmbo]

53. Good comeback...I know you are but what am I?

http://us.f207.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?MsgId=7639_687449_38688_2019_1039_0_494_2141_2978593387&YY=3898&inc=25&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&box=Inbox

[DoveTurnedHawk]

29. That's Actually a Big, Fat...Misrepresentation

You and BillyBunter have done nothing but bash Dean since you've been here.

I can't speak for BB, but I was actually a big Dean booster and defender, right up until Sunday when he started going negative on Clark. It's quite easily documented based on one simple search, if you bothered to get your facts straight, rather than post any old tripe that you would prefer to believe.

Even when Dean went negative on Clark, I merely expressed my deep disappointment in Dean (who had previously been my #2 choice) that day, and since that day I've scarcely had a negative word to say about him, unless you're one of those bizarre people who consider posting mainstream news stories and asking legitimate questions "slams."

Nice try, though!

DTH

[Julien Sorel]

39. I've likely been since before you've heard of Dean, bub.

And every time I challenge someone to give me examples of this 'bashing,' they fail. Recently, I've become more critical of Dean because he's proven himself a blatant liar, instead of the snake oil salesman I originally thought him, but pointing out that a candidate is shredding his own credibility on national television, while attacking my preferred candidate in the process, isn't 'bashing.'

[Forkboy]

9. the fact that he even dares to speak "unscripted remarks"

is a plus,in my opinion,not a negative.

[Rose Siding]

22. I think it's a plus

People are used to blow dried, air brushed pols. Change is good.

[Larkspur]

11. Dean's blunt style earns him the front runner status and $14.8 million

plus in contributions for 3rd QTR.

The swipes by the other candidates makes them look like whiners. None have the organizing ability of Dean so they have to use misinformation to try to slow Dean's momentum. Gep's attack on Dean is a scare tactic. When the full article is read that Gep uses against Dean, nothing in that article says that Dean sided with Newt. And there is nothing wrong with trying to slow down Medicare's growth rate. Dean was trying to protect state's ability to pay their share of it without raising state taxes.

And regarding Clark, he's not a registered Democrat. That makes him ineligible to be the Democratic Party's Presidential nominee and Party standard bearer. Clark is a fraud, Dean is a bona fide Democrat.

[10digits]

14. The angry toddler.

He blows even harder.

[Orangepeel]

12. Dean changes his mind!

I'm a strong Dean supporter, but even I don't think he is perfect or always right. There are some stands that he holds with which I disagree, and others that he used to hold with which I would have disagreed.

He's a doctor. He listens to people, considers all sides, analyzes the situation and weights the facts. He's not afraid to change his mind if the situation changes. :shrug:

[sangh0]

28. So how has the situation changed?

The article cites three issues in which Dean changed his mind; NAFTA, Medicare, and the Cuban Embargo. What has changed and why do those changes justify a change in Dean's position?

[cprise]

16. "Put on your DLC tutu Clark..."

"...we're goin to the circus!"

[Upfront]

17. Yawn

[artr2]

20. Same Sh**, Different Day

You can always depend on the Clark supporters to dig up the dirt on fellow DEMOCRATS. If only you could apply the same zeal to dig up dirt on bush.

[underpants]

24. Imagine that a guy from Vermont smoking blunts

:bounce::smoke:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

26. Some of You Are HILARIOUS!

I absolutely LOVE some of the responses here, they are just so priceless! My own personal, obviously biased observation has been that many (but certainly not all) Clark supporters tend towards the more practical, analytic and down-to-earth, while many (again, CERTAINLY not all) Dean supporters tend towards the more idealistic, emotional and at times just OUT THERE.

This is a case study!

People, this is LATEST. BREAKING. NEWS. It requires little to no "digging" to find a recent headlined story at the Washington Post (as opposed to some weak hack job article from, say, CounterPunch). People read this forum for the news, not just the shiny happy news, but sometimes even the not-so-shiny and the not-so-happy news.

I'm sorry Dean seems to have been the subject of more negative stories lately, while Clark seems to have been the subject of more positive stories lately. Winning over the pool reporters and the whore media is one big advantage Clark has, in my opinion, and if we can use that in our favor for once, then more power to us.

It's no secret I support Clark. Duh. Just look at my sig or my avatar or read any of my posts. And it's no secret I'm not thrilled with Dean after his negative comments about Clark, although I certainly haven't directed even a fraction of my vitriol towards Dean, and it absolutely pales in comparison to the bile and ridiculous hate I see directed at Clark daily.

But if you think posting up a mainstream LBN story about Dean is a "slam," well, you have a LOT to learn about slams and politics. Get used to it, it's a long primary season!

One Incredibly Amused DTH

[sangh0]

30. Even funnier

is that even though the Dean supporters agree that Dean has changed his position (while arguing that the ability to change one's mind in light of changing circumstances and new info) not one has said one word about which circumstances have changed, what the new info is, and how that justifies Dean's shifting opinions.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

33. The Two Things That *I* Love

1) Note all of the anti-Clark comments here, despite the fact that Clark has been one of the only leading Dem candidates who has DECLINED to go negative on Dean.

2) Many of the Dean supporters are merciless toward Clark for any perceived "flip-flop," even when it's not even a flip-flop, even when it's just a detailed clarification on a very complex subject. For them to be throwing such stones in light of stories like these is both amusing and hypocritical, IMO.

DTH

[Hawkeye-X]

38. DTH - you know I respect you..

but I still continue to wonder if Clark is ready for presidency. One of his biggest problems is lack of political experience, and this will hurt him the most. You know, I'm already on the Dean side, and I try to refrain from attacking Clark, because I do respect the man, and would strongly support him if he becomes Dean's VP, instead of running for presidency. I know that he has a lot to offer, but the lack of political experience will eviscrate him, and I want Clark unscathed, in my opinion.

Republican or not, Clark is a fine man. He served well under Clinton, and there has been lots of negative stories out there that will eventually hurt Clark. Moreso, the "protective shield" is starting to wear off on Clark, and his number will be stagnant, and so will his fundraising efforts.

We're on the same side, we shouldn't be attacking the other candidates. Good lord I don't - except for Lieberman, and I have my reasons.

Hawkeye-X

[DoveTurnedHawk]

51. We Can Reasonably Agree to Disagree, Hawk

Frankly, I think your concerns are reasonable ones. That said, I disagree with your analysis. If being at the top of the polls is "stagnant," I'll take it. I'll take "stagnant" over Bush all the way to the bank.

Clark also has more impressive fundraisers than any other candidate, and I have little doubt he will outraise Dean in Q4. You heard it here, Hawk. :-)

Finally, I don't think lack of Beltway experience is going to hurt Clark, especially given how he can bolster this with a VP pick and that the majority of voters don't care at all about this.

DTH

[goforit]

36. You too are emotional as well.

Considering Clark has been a repug for so long,

people will loose trust in him if not now, later.

This wavering back and forth shows a spinless character no matter
how nice a person he is.
And I do like him too.

But he needs to show more passion and explain his past.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

37. Wrong, You're Listening to Dean Too Much

Clark isn't a Republican, and he hasn't been. He has been an Independent, whose last votes for Republicans were 15 years ago.

DTH

[cprise]

47. And so soon after using the 'anti-Clark' press attitude

...to demonstrate Clark isn't an establishment dupe.

How quickly the tune changes.

[trogdor]

27. This is getting stupid.

1. Medicare: How does agreement with a goal of Newt Gingrich imply agreement with the means Gingrich might have proposed to reach said goal? Say you have a growth on your hand. The goal is to get rid of it. Dr. Quack wants to amputate your hand. Dr. Sensible wants to put liquid nitrogen on the growth, killing it, and then scrape it off with a scalpel. Both have the same goal in mind, but how does Dr. Sensible get lumped in with Dr. Quack?

2. SS: The way we're going, we might just have to raise the retirement age again. Anyone who says otherwise is in denial. The alternatives are either to raise the ceiling on eligible income or to raise the FICA tax. Even these might not be enough, so yes, SS retirement age is still on the table.

3. Last I heard, NAFTA was a treaty between the United States, Canada, and Mexico. That's why it's called the North American Free Trade Agreement, not the Pan-Pacific Free Trade Agreement. How did China get involved in it? I generally support NAFTA because I believe a prosperous, economically secure Mexico is in our national self-interest. Besides, unlike China, there aren't enough Mexicans in the world to seriously impact our own economy.

Edit: Since we're racing to the bottom on labor, most of the jobs that were created in Mexico because of NAFTA have since gone to China. The result? MORE illegal Mexican immigration, with all the nastiness that entails. Is NAFTA to blame for this? No way.

Moreover, it is one thing to compete with other countries on the basis of quality, such is the case with Japanese cars, but it is quite another to have to compete on the basis of price, which is what American labor is being forced to do vis a vis China. We can suck it up and make better Chevrolets FAR more easily than we can take a fat pay cut to compete with Chinese labor.

[sangh0]

31. Nice work

1) You seem to argue in favor of Dean's approach to Medicare, and distinguish it from Newts' approach without giving us ANY DETAILS about Dean's (or Newt's) approach. I'm in awe!

2) You defend Dean's OLD position, which Dean himself now disagrees with. It makes me wonder if you'll be voting for the New Dean or the Old Dean.


3) Again you argue without explaining Dean's change of position on NAFTA. You also argue in favor of Dean's OLD Nafta position, and not his new one.

[demdave]

32. Follow Arnie's lead !!!!

I'll bet that made people look.:) What I am saying is that I would love for all the Dem. presidential candidates to lay out a 100 day plan for after winning the election. It would be informational and help people, like myself, make comparisons. I hate to rely on the media to state a persons position. Especially with the kind of news I hear daily about Clark or Dean changing their position in the last few years. I am really more interested in where they are now, what they intend to do as soon as they take office and how they went from previously held positions to the ones they now embrace.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

34. I Think 100-Day Plans Would Be Good

It would be very interesting to see exactly how candidates would PRIORITIZE the issues they talk about.

DTH

[goforit]

35. These guys are pro-Bush!!

The biggest scandal is breaking and can't do any better than bash DEAN??????

They are so out of touch of reality...I will never forget the lack of support they gave GORE too.....

What Schmucks!!!!

Gore should know who his back stabbers were now!!!!

I may never donate another penny to the DLC/DNC ever again!!!

[RetroLounge]

40. Yawn...

Hey, look! A negative Dean thread from the usual Clarkies...

:boring:
:boring:
:boring:
:boring:
:boring:
:boring:
:boring:
:boring:
:boring:
:boring:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

46. Exactly What Part of "Latest Breaking News" Do You Not Understand? (eom)

DTH

[cprise]

49. Yeah! Get with the program!

:spank:

[Demobrat]

48. Personally, I'll take unscriped remarks

over teleprompted bullshit anytime, thanks!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

52. There's a Difference Between Unscripted and Reckless, Though

I actually like Dean's style compared to most others in the field, but I do think he needs to be more careful.

DTH