Gorbachev, U.S. officials debate end to Castro regime

[Osolomia]

Sunday, October 5, 2003
By RALF E. 'TED' KIRCHER
Naples Daily News, Florida

MIAMI — A vestigial battle of the Cold War flared here Saturday with two competing summits on Cuban-American relations featuring a cast that included such players as former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev and a sitting U.S. assistant secretary of state.

.... "The embargo is one tool of our policy, and it is a tool that we will not surrender," said Roger F. Noriega, U.S. assistant secretary of state for Western Hemisphere Affairs. "Rather than giving a $1 billion windfall that would be generated by U.S. tourist travel, we will save those resources for the day when they will go to the Cuban people."

... Noriega also announced the Bush administration's elimination of a travel provision that allows for nonacademic educational exchanges. Moreover, Noriega said, "We are working to step up enforcement actions against those who travel in violation of the law."

... Gorbachev championed the idea that it is the United States' responsibility as the sole remaining superpower to take the first step toward reconciliation.

"I would be the first to salute the liberation of America from the fear of Cuba," he said with a smile.

Speaking earlier in the day, retired Marine Gen. John Sheehan, former commander-in-chief of the U.S. Atlantic Command, called allegations that Cuba is developing weapons of mass destruction "the politicization of intelligence" as seemingly has been evidenced in Iraq.

... "Mr. President, it's time to tear down the wall that prevents Americans from going anywhere they damn well please."

More...
http://www.naplesnews.com/03/10/naples/e6480a.htm

[Cappurr]

1. Ah Gorby

I love that line "I would be the first to salute the liberation of America from the fear of Cuba" lol

He's right, you know. This whole Cuba thing is the last vestige of the cold war and we ought to be big enough to let it go.

[sasty]

2. Communisim was the worst scurge ever

to take place in the world. Responsible for over 100 million deaths. Many more than facisim or any other "ism".

It should not be taken lightly.

[Exultant Democracy]

5. Dude, capitalism has killed far more,

in fact if we hop in our way back machine to around 1492, the dawn of mercantilism, about 100 million Native Americans died in less then fifty years. If you add the numbers for Africa and Asia you get a death toll that boggles the mind (not to mention the whole slavery thing.) So I’m going to have to say that communism was not the worst “scurge” (sic) ever, in fact it doesn’t even get close. There is only one “ism” you need to worry about today, neo-conservatism.

[Say_What]

12. US and EU seen through the eyes of the third world

An interesting editorial from allafrica.com:

<clips>

...There's need for all Third World countries to support Cuba when the United Nations discusses the question of lifting the economic blockade on it next month.

This is surely not the time for begging from the developed countries or for submission, defeatism or internecine divisions. This is time to rescue our fighting spirit, our unity and cohesion in defending our demands for a more just, fair and humane world.

Fifty three years ago we were promised that one day there would not be a gap between developed and underdeveloped countries. We were promised bread and justice; but today we have less and less bread and more injustice.

The world can be globalised under the rule of neoliberalism, but it is impossible to rule over billions of people who are hungry for bread and justice.

The current world economic order works for 20 per cent of the population but it leaves out, demeans and degrades the remaining 80 per cent. We simply cannot accept to continue in this century as the backward, poor and exploited rearguard; the victim of racism and xenophobia, prevented from accessing knowledge and suffering the alienation of our cultures due to the foreign consumer-oriented message globalised by the media.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200310060007.html

[Judi Lynn]

24. Fear of diversity on a global scale

From your article:

(snip) In a world in which peace truly reigns, democracy can take more forms of expression in a fair society. In a world in which the world hegemony of the mightiest imperialist power reigns and the people's sovereignty, territorial integrity and independence are threatened, democracy won't have many different forms of expression.

And Cuba has found its form of expression of democracy, and they believe that it suits their conditions. Its effectiveness has been shown for more than 40 years, and we think that no country could have stood firm against the blockade, the threats, acts of aggression and the terrible blows of toppling of the socialist camp and the disappearance of the Soviet Union if its people weren't politically aware and united - not split into a thousand parts. Therefore, unity is the main thing here. (snip/)

[NickB79]

22. So the logical way to deal with that is

To deny any way for the Cuban people from learned about capitalism from the US via sanctions? The fastest way to destroy a communist society is to expose them to trading with a capitalist society. Look at Eastern Europe, how they fell apart in the 80's as their people started buying Western products and started to crave a new lifestyle. Sanctioning Cuba is counterproductive in ending communism. Tell me how much money US tourists would spend buying food, lodging, clothing, etc from local sellers while visiting Cuba? That influx of money would revolutionize the Cuban economy, which would quickly throw off communism. It's already happening to China to some degree, happened to Eastern Germany as well.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. Mmmkay

So let's stop doing bidness with them China reds, shall we?

[termo]

26. communism or capitalism are both compatible with facism

nationalism and religionism have big scores as well...

by the way, this 100 million number started in 1917 I presume.
do we have details ? comparison with something else ?

http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/BACK/Casualties.htm

another war... in which side does the 2 million+ civilian vietnamese casualities "stand" ?

US like other former empires / super powers have a lot of blood in there hands as well.

when you know that something worse exist(ed), does it make feel good ?

[Judi Lynn]

3. I think the retired Commander of the U.S. Atlantic Command

just might know what he's talking about here:

(snip)Speaking earlier in the day, retired Marine Gen. John Sheehan, former commander-in-chief of the U.S. Atlantic Command, called allegations that Cuba is developing weapons of mass destruction "the politicization of intelligence" as seemingly has been evidenced in Iraq.

"The fact is, there are no weapons of mass destruction in Cuba," Sheehan said. "It is no military threat to the U.S." (snip)

[ozone_man]

4. "Mr. President, it's time to tear down the wall "

What a great line. I think that the next President (a Democrat) should follow trough on this. I understand that it is politically sensitive during a campaign season. Besides, I want to visit Cuba without feeling like a criminal.

[Mika]

6. HELLO! DUers, WE Americans are being sanctioned by Bush thugs

From the lead article,

Noriega said, "We are working to step up enforcement actions against those who travel in violation of the law."

That is us Americans who's rights will be violated by stepped up enforcement actions by Bushco thugs!

Cuban "exiles" and naturalized Cuban-Americans are allowed to travel to Cuba. :wtf:

Americans are officially second class citizens when it comes to our travel rights. (Not to mention the plethora of related issues, like the wasting of homeland security resources on stepped up enforcement actions against Americans, like the violation of our constitutional right to equal protection under the law, etc.)


How many Dem presidential candidates support this tyranny put upon us?

[Osolomia]

8. All the leading Dem candidates support this “tyranny” against US citizens

And judging from the lack of opposition on a forum such as this, so do their supporters.

The silence of the Dems at this stage of the endgame reeks of complicity with Bush’s policy until the leaders present even an iota of evidence to the contrary.

One excuse offered by a DUer is that Bush isn’t doing anything in Cuba so why worry, why bother. Who cares where the 2004 Democratic presidential candidates stand between now and election day so long as it’s ABB. And who cares where their Senator stands in the crucial vote on Americans’ freedom to travel coming up in the next week or so.

Another excuse offered by DUers is that they’re afraid to talk, even told not to post on Cuba threads!

Ignoring this issue isn’t going to make it go away, just all the more for Bush and the extremist “exiles” to get away with whatever they want, with complicit support of the Dems so long as the presidential contenders continue to waffle and the sheeple keep their heads in the sand and act like morons when a golden opportunity to make a difference is being handed to them on a silver platter.

Obviously the problem lies with the politics of the USA, not Cuba’s.

[Say_What]

14. Gorby: "I would salute the liberation of America from the fear of Cuba"

Ignorance, propaganda, political agenda, folks being afraid of being tagged a 'Castro lover', and others coerced into not posting on Cuba threads. But hey, that's what we've seen in Miami for decades.

As Mika pointed out, the ones with real cojones are the ones who promote dialog and normal relations with the island in spite of the MURDERS, INTIMIDATION, BOMBINGS, businesses ruin, political futures ruined, etc.

Examples of Democracy--Miami style.

Luciano Nieves: murdered after advocating peaceful coexistence with Cuba.

Car bomb blows off legs of WQBA-AM news director Emilio Milian after he publicly condemns exile violence.

Bomb explodes near home of Griselda Hidalgo, advocate of unrestricted travel to Cuba.

Inflamed by Radio Mambí commentator Armando Perez-Roura, Cuban exiles physically assault demonstrators lawfully protesting against U.S. embargo. Two police officers injured, sixteen arrests made. Miami City Commissioner Miriam Alonso then seeks to silence anti-embargo demonstrators: "We have to look at the legalities of whether the City of Miami can prevent them from expressing themselves."

Human Rights Watch/Americas Group issues report stating that Miami exiles do not tolerate dissident opinions, that Spanish-language radio promotes aggression, and that local government leaders refuse to denounce acts of intimidation.

Using crowbars and hammers, exile crowd rips out and urinates on Calle Ocho "Walk of Fame" star of Mexican actress Veronica Castro, who had visited Cuba.

Cuban American National Foundation mounts campaign against the Miami Herald, whose executives then receive death threats and whose newsracks are defaced and smeared with feces.

Patrons attending concert by Cuban jazz pianist Gonzalo Rubalcaba physically assaulted by 200 exile protesters. Transportation for exiles arranged by Dade County Commissioner Javier Souto.

Firebomb explodes at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

Violent protest at Miami Arena performance of Cuban band Los Van Van leaves one person injured, eleven arrested.

Outside home of Elian Gonzalez's Miami relatives, radio talk show host Scot Piasant of Portland, Oregon, displays T-shirt reading, "Send the boy home" and "A father's rights," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-04-20/mullin.html

[Judi Lynn]

20. This is so funny!

Miami City Commissioner Alonso was named in your post this way:

Inflamed by Radio Mambí commentator Armando Perez-Roura, Cuban exiles physically assault demonstrators lawfully protesting against U.S. embargo. Two police officers injured, sixteen arrests made. Miami City Commissioner Miriam Alonso then seeks to silence anti-embargo demonstrators: "We have to look at the legalities of whether the City of Miami can prevent them from expressing themselves."

Isn't that grotesque? Miriam Alonso couldn't control herself, and has gotten into a bleep-load of trouble since that royal proclamation!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(snip) The Miami Herald
Sep. 05, 2002
Alonso, husband arrested a 2nd time

Ex-commissioner arrested again in corruption inquiry

BY KARL ROSS AND DAVID GREEN

In a case one prosecutor called ''an abuse of trust beyond all explanation,'' former Miami-Dade Commissioner Miriam Alonso and her husband, Leonel,
were arrested Wednesday on new felony corruption charges -- this latest batch stemming from their alleged misuse of $78,000 raised to combat an
aborted recall campaign.

The recall effort was started by Miami Lakes community activists, outraged about Alonso's push to expand a nearby landfill. The petition drive was
terminated in November 1999, but Alonso continued to rake in tens of thousands of dollars in contributions from rock miners, developers, airport
contractors and others that subsequently became the focal point of this latest criminal case against the Alonsos.

The Alonsos were arrested previously in April and charged with a number of corruption-related offenses -- including grand theft, money laundering and
exploitation of public office. Most of those charges were related to an alleged scheme to pilfer $54,000 from Alonso's 1998 reelection campaign account.

On Wednesday -- the former commissioner's 61st birthday -- the Alonsos were charged with participating in an ''organized scheme to defraud,'' grand
theft, evidence tampering, conspiracy to tamper with or fabricate evidence and solicitation to commit perjury in official proceedings. Miriam Alonso was
also charged with exploiting her official position. Money laundering charges against the couple are likely to be added, prosecutors said. (snip)

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/exile/alonsos-arrested.htm


(snip) Miriam Alonso Family - Miami-Dade County Commissioner
Family Members Arrested in Miami Commissioner Corruption Case
MIAMI (AP) - The corruption probe into former Miami-Dade County Commissioner Miriam Alonso has led to grand theft charges against her daughter and son-in-law.
Prosecutors said Alonso's daughter, also named Miriam Alonso, and her husband, Kevin Miles, used money left over from the elder Alonso's failed 1997 Miami commission campaign to buy a home.

The younger Alonso, 42, and Miles, 46, were arrested Friday and later released from the Miami-Dade County jail on $5,000 bond each.

Miami AP -Tampa Bay Online 2 Nov 2002
Dr Miriam Alonso is a Miami-Dade County Republican (snip)


http://www.miamidaderepublicans.com/CountyOfficials.htm

[hippiechick]

21. Noriega ? Where have we heard that name before ...

In the context of a Bush Administration ??
Wonder if he's related to Manuel.

hmmmmmmmm.......


:hippie:

[Judi Lynn]

7. I'm tossing a "human interest" story into this thread, if I may

(snip)
Marlins fans in Cuba follow `their team'

By Vanessa Bauza
HAVANA BUREAU
Posted October 5 2003

HAVANA · Gesticulating with their fists in the air and fingers in each others faces, scores of Havana's most devoted baseball fans gather daily under the shady trees of the Central Square to discuss the latest scores and trades of the game that stirs Cubans' passions like no other.

Florida may be the focus of much of Fidel Castro's ire. But Cubans love the Marlins just the same.

On Saturday, as the Marlins advanced to battle for the National League championship, the men gathered at Havana's famed peña de beisbol, as the informal gathering spot is known, cheered the possibility they might get to see the team some think of as their own play in World Series again.

"I feel as though the Marlins are a Cuban team," said Benito Castillo, 31. "Many of them are Latinos, and they are in Miami, which is like a little Havana."

Though Cuba's state-run television does not air U.S. baseball games, fans here follow their favorite teams by tuning in to Miami-based stations picked up on shortwave radios, through clandestine DirecTV dishes or Internet access, a rarity for most.
(snip/...)

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/caribbean/sfl-marlcuba05oct05,0,1009820.story?coll=sfla-news-caribbean


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(D.U. posters who have been to Cuba have indicated that Cubans actually pick up Miami radio stations on ordinary radios, and they also get Miami tv stations. It's only 90 miles alway, f'r crying out loud, not like being in Antarctica! (Sometimes certain elements get exaggerated for dramatic or propaganda purposes. Try going 90 miles away from your city, if you live in a sizeable town, and see if you can pick up your radio stations in your car. OF COURSE YOU CAN.)

[Osolomia]

9. Yet the US government continues to spend US taxpayers money

Distributing shortwave radios to Cuba’s “dissidents” so that they can listen to the US government financed propaganda station Radio Marti since brainwashed Americans still like to fantasize that the highly educated people of Cuba have no other source of information even though they’ve managed to turn their island into the #1 travel destination in the Caribbean for several years now.

Even the leading 2004 Democratic Presidential candidates support continuing this farce at US taxpayers’ expense for many more years to come at this rate.

What a shame!

[Osolomia]

10. When did Gorby say anything about ending the "Castro regime"?

Typical wishfull thinking on the part of brainwashed Americans clinging to their state of denial about what Gorbachev actually said by the looks of it.

[Say_What]

11. Quite the contrary

in his excellent editorial titled The Last Wall from Saturdays WP, Gorby wrote:

...An end to the embargo would complete the unfinished business of the Cold War in the Western Hemisphere. It is because of the Cold War that a country that saw an anti-dictatorial revolution, which had nothing to do with Communist ideology, became involved in the superpower confrontation. Isolated and belonging ideologically to the "socialist camp," its choice of the path of socioeconomic development became all but inevitable. And during the missile crisis Cuba nearly became the trigger for a nuclear war.

Yet it would be unfair to reduce Cuba's entire post-revolutionary history to that. The achievements of the Cuban people in education, health, science and the arts have been widely recognized. The Cubans withstood the consequences of the withdrawal of Soviet economic subsidies, and the country's economy has recently shown an 8 percent growth in gross domestic product. Cuba has pursued a responsible foreign policy, as I can confirm based on my own experience working with Fidel Castro to defuse regional crises in Central America and Africa.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42248-2003Oct3.html

---

Interesting to note--but not surprising--is that while newspapers around the planet are reporting that a former Soviet leader told Bush to "take down the wall", and that while the US calls for human rights in Cuba, it prevents its own citizens from sharing freedom with the Cuban people, the Miami Herald printed not one word, nada, zip, zilch. That no articles were forthcoming out of CANFs local organ is typical. Democracy--Miami style.

[Mika]

13. Castro forces these things on the Cuban people. Right?

"The achievements of the Cuban people in education, health, science and the arts have been widely recognized."


Castro forced the universal education, universal health care, science and the arts upon the unwilling Cuban people who did not want any of these things.

How dare Gorby recognize the efforts of all the Cuban people.

Doesn't he know that Castro runs everything? He sets the bus routes and times, he sets the garbage pick-up days, he sets the menus at the hotels. All against the will of the supine Cuban people, who have always been cowed by governments they did not like and have never risen up against oppression.

<sacrasm off>

[Say_What]

15. Gorby blew the lid off 40 years of LIES propagated by the US

Interesting letter to the editor in the Palm Beach Post today:

Ban on travel to Cuba helps prop up failed U.S. policy

The Sept. 22 editorial ("Common sense on Cuba") questioned why U.S. sanctions against Cuba continued to be supported by the Bush administration. Recent canceling of travel licenses for many U.S. groups promoting people-to-people exchanges between U.S. and Cuban citizens only has added to the "failed" policy The Post speaks of. If it hasn't worked, why is it supported?

Those of us who have been lucky enough to have participated in prior "people-to-people" exchanges in Cuba, as I have done many times as a pediatrician, may be able to shed some light on the issue. During our visit, we were able to learn about and witness many of the amazing successes the past 40 years have brought to Cuba.

The country has a vaccination rate, literacy rate and infant mortality rate are all better than ours. As we traveled, often unaccompanied by guide or driver, around the country, we were able to see children with behavioral problems in schools with smaller classes and extra teachers rather than prescriptions; children with cancer being treated with the latest protocols; farmers in the countryside who are college graduates; children laughing and playing in the streets without fear of violence; professionals proud of their hard work.

Of course, there are challenges with shortages of food and housing, but no one is starving or sleeping on the street. I can assure you that more of Cuba's production is spent on its people than is in this country.

Maybe our travel is restricted to "protect" the propaganda we are fed about Cuba, to dictate what we learn. It's about time we defend our right as United States citizens to travel, learn and share ideas. The government should be spending more effort worrying about serious issues here at home.

JONI ALBRECHT, MD

<http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/content/auto/epaper/editions/monday/opinion_f3082c8f06b1416d1081.html;COXnetJSessionID=1B7QFmOOuNhvO1RCb1gZrNFjLlai5T96YkZEpkbm48VzSr5a3Etm!461918832?urac=n&urvf=10654503208490.3380472725060589>

[Mika]

16. Here's a working link to that PB post op/ed

Ban on travel to Cuba helps prop up failed U.S. policy

Thanks for posting it.

BLINKERS ON!!

[Say_What]

17. Thanks!!

;-)

[Judi Lynn]

18. Dr. Albrecht sees it, too

Cuba watchers have been saying this for years, and she expressed it perfectly:

Maybe our travel is restricted to "protect" the propaganda we are fed about Cuba, to dictate what we learn.

The propaganda pushers have painted themselves into a corner. It looks as if they never stopped to think that one day they'd HAVE to drop the travel ban, that they can't keep it going FOREVER, and that when they do, massive numbers of American travellers would be coming back with the stories we've already heard from our D.U. Cuba travellers who post here.

If they remove the ban, EVERYONE will know they've been lying. This is a strange predicament they've created for themselves. It's very serious, actually, isn't it?

They probably can't figure out a way to allow the public to go now, without trying something huge, to change the face of Cuba, to rearrange the reality we'll be seeing when we do. When we all know they've been lying, they'll lose power here, and they can't afford it.

[Judi Lynn]

19. Financial Times report on the Cuba conventions

Cuba embargo divides conferences
By Henry Hamman in Miami
Published: October 6 2003 5:00 | Last Updated: October 6 2003 5:00


The distance between the two hotel meeting rooms was less than 100 metres, but the two versions of US-Cuba relations offered up at competing conferences in Miami over the weekend were as wide as the strait between Florida and Cuba.

In one salon, Bush administration officials promised a continued hard line to defend the 43-year embargo of Cuba. Opponents of that embargo, gathered nearby, to hear former Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev paraphrase president Ronald Reagan, calling the "wall of economic embargo" against Cuba a "relic of the cold war" that America should tear down.

The opposing conferences - a pro-embargo gathering sponsored by the University of Miami, and an anti-embargo gathering sponsored by New York's New School University - come at a time of declining support for the isolation of Cuba among Washington politicians and parts of the Cuban-American community. (snip)

(snip) Besides Mr Gorbachev, the anti-embargo conference heard from Bill Delahunt, the Democratic congressman who co-led the House vote last month to weaken restrictions on Cuban travel and remittances. William D. Rogers, the patrician Republican vice-chairman of Kissinger Associates, and retired Marine General John J. Sheehan dismissed the embargo and travel bans as anachronistic. (snip/)

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059480353917

[Osolomia]

25. More lies and bullshit from Repukes, more silent complicity from Dems

SEN. DICK LUGAR: A new opening in Cuba
Scripps Howard News Service
Published: October 6, 2003, 08:20:00 AM PDT

(SH) - Something new is happening in Cuba.
Little-noticed by outsiders, a courageous and diverse pro-democracy movement has quietly risen above the ramparts of Fidel Castro's repression. Independent journalists are doing their best to provide alternate views, individuals are opening their homes and personal libraries to their communities, independent labor unions are documenting violations of workers rights. Cuba's more than 300 political prisoners and their families are now getting help from human rights groups, part of a citizens' groundswell that is relying on its own initiative to seek peaceful emancipation from a totalitarian state.

The most public expression of this movement is the Varela Project, launched by Oswaldo Paya using a provision of the constitution that allows citizens to request a popular referendum. Paya, a leader of the homegrown Christian Liberation Movement, collected more than 11,000 signatures on a petition asking the government to hold a vote on whether citizens wanted more democratic freedoms.

But instead of granting the petition, Castro's submissive National Assembly refused to recognize it. The government rounded up some 75 activists, many directly connected to the Varela Project, named for the 19th century reformer Father Felix Varela. After sham trials, the activists were given sentences ranging from 6 to 28 years. The Castro regime punctuated its crackdown by executing three Cubans accused of attempting to hijack a boat and flee the country.

More…
http://www.modbee.com/24hour/opinions/story/1020320p-7162106c.html

[Say_What]

27. Lobbyist Prying Open The Door To Cuba

The other side of the coin. Here's a guy who says it right: Some rich Cuban under Batista lost his ranch, so the loser comes to my country and wants the American taxpayer to accomplish what they couldn't.

<clips>

TAMPA - Al Fox knows something about contentious issues.

In the 1980s, during the height of the apartheid debate, the Ybor City native was a lobbyist for South Africa. Fox was paid to convince Congress that trade sanctions weren't the best policy.

He was called a racist, a sellout and un-American, comments that made Fox bristle. He says he truly believed extracting corporate money from South Africa would only hurt blacks.

``I learned sanctions do not work. They've never worked,'' Fox says. ``Look at Libya, look at Iraq, and, of course, look at Cuba.''

http://www.tampatrib.com/News/MGAM2C50GLD.html