Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs

[brooklynite]

An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.

...snip...

The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481
- - -
So, apparently its less important to follow a religion you believe in than it is to go through the motions of something more "mainstream"

[tk2kewl]

1. That will work.

Authority tells a kid that he is forbidden from doing something, and the kid does what?

[Bandit]

29. Except they aren't telling the child anything they are telling the parents

When America tells a parent they can not teach their own child religion (no matter what religion) then we are no longer America.

[suziedemocrat]

85. Exactly! What happened to "Freedom of Religion?" Indiana is full of

"Old Order of the German Baptist" - or "Amish Lite". Many of these people don't believe in using electricity or driving cars; although they seem to be getting more relaxed about this. But they still wear clothing that sets them apart and is definitely NOT "mainstream". There are many of those people around where I grew up and they are generally very nice people who don't preach constantly about how great they are and how they are going to heaven and I'm going to hell. But - they are NOT mainstream. So - I guess they would not be allowed to pass that onto their children.

God forbid if there were Rastafarians in Indiana!!

My father was a child in the 1920's in a small town in Indiana - and the KKK burned white crosses in his yard because they didn't like Irish Catholics. Sometimes I really hate this state!!

Maybe the judge should focus on the huge crystal-meth problem in Indiana!

[Delphinus]

91. I would think

this could be jumped on by so many groups. This is truly unconstitutional for the judge to do!

This makes me think of that quote about them coming for the Jews and I did nothing, because I wasn't a Jew.

[Scairp]

208. No way this holds up

And this judge needs to have some "quiet time" somewhere. No judge in their right mind would forbid parents from teaching their own children about a particular religion, as long as it doesn't endanger them physically. I could see if the parents belongs to some cult that believed in sexual contact with kids as part of it, but this isn't like that. Wicca isn't evil and they don't cook babies in a stew and eat them out in the woods naked. The ignorance is just appalling.

[ticapnews]

214. Martin Niemoller

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.


by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

[converted_democrat]

216. Bingo......

This is a big deal. A very big deal, in terms of the precedent set.

[LiberalFighter]

243. Here is part of the problem

The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school.

[LiberalFighter]

244. And this is why the judge is wrong under Indiana law

IC 31-17-2-17
Custodian may determine child's upbringing
Sec. 17. (a) Except:
(1) as otherwise agreed by the parties in writing at the time of the custody order; and
(2) as provided in subsection (b);
the custodian may determine the child's upbringing, including the child's education, health care, and religious training.
(b) If the court finds after motion by a noncustodial parent that, in the absence of a specific limitation of the custodian's authority, the child's:
(1) physical health would be endangered; or
(2) emotional development would be significantly impaired;
the court may specifically limit the custodian's authority.

[madrchsod]

2. yet another example of the

government interfering with parents rights.when will the democrats stop putting in activists judge who believe the state knows best on how to raise children?

[dhill926]

3. expect more of the same...

the fringe is emboldened. But this decision doesn't stand a chance in um, hell of standing. For now,,,,

[Mizmoon]

16. Welcome to DU dhill926

:hi:

[dhill926]

227. thanks! this place helps me stay sane....

[mahina]

126. Welcome to DU!

Aloha!

[dhill926]

228. thanks! Aloha back at ya!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. That is an absolute outrage!

If THIS isn't the government enforcing religious beliefs, I don't know what is!!

[Eloriel]

162. Yeah, this is such a blatant First Amendment violation you have to

wonder if the judge went to law school or what.

Amazing. And very, very frightening too. I'm absolutely outraged.

[Liberal Veteran]

5. That judge should be disbarred for this decision alone.

Their is NOTHING in the constitution that says "Freedom of MAINSTREAM religion".

And if he is too stupid to know that, he doesn't deserve to be a judge.

[Richard Steele]

157. That's another part of the problem. It's not just that these Judges...

...make it to the bench in the first place.
It's that it is so rare that they ever get removed.

As Liberal Veteran said, this person doesn't deserve to be a judge.
But he is, and he WILL CONTINUE to be, and that's a problem.

[demnan]

6. If I were them

I'd appeal to a higher court. I'd also get the ACLU involved.

[MADem]

I'm sure they will, and I'll bet they get help, too

Someone with a brain will slap this down well before it gets to the Supremes, and even Scalia would have to side with the parents -- that judge was way out of line.

[saigon68]

114. ANOTHER RIGHT WING FUNDIE NUT CASE

Doncha just love these knuckle dragging Cretins. It would be funny if there weren't so many of them.

[progressiveBadger]

159. And then they say that it's the liberal judges who are activists... n/t

[saigon68]

172. Right On-- I like your Avatar

[Seabiscuit]

86. I'd also file a very noisy complaint with the state judicial council

and demand this judge be removed from the bench. I'd also file a very noisy complaint with the Illinois State Bar, demanding his disbarment, or at the minimum, suspension.

[icymist]

163. Don't you mean the Indiana State Bar?

I'm also sure that the Illinois State Bar would also be glad to comdem this judge as well.

[Seabiscuit]

165. Yes.

[benburch]

7. Oh, I so want to say something...

that would get me in a LOT of legal trouble.

[jayfish]

156. Put It In The Context...

of a dream and you should be alright. Just ask Glenn Beck.

Jay

[stellanoir]

8. Now

it's official. There goes separtion of church and state.

All hail our shiny new fascist corporate theocracy.

[expatriot]

9. this is insane! oh my fricking god.

It is so scary how some people in positions of power would have no problem what so ever transitioning into a fascistic theocratic dictatorship.

[Bok_Tukalo]

10. So this is one of those activist judges I keep hearing about

<ope>

[Pacifist Patriot]

45. Well now that you mention it.

[RethugAssKicker]

11. This could never hold up

This is against freedom of religion... The judge must be removed from office!!

[warrens]

12. Activist judge, activist judge!

Where in the Constitution does it say parents can'd teach religion? I mean, I think this is great, as long as it applies to ALL religons.

[Deep13]

13. activist judge

Thor will be pissed.
:D
I remember practicing divorce law in Ohio. Courts did not like religion provisions in seperation agreements and only approved them when both parties agreed and with the understanding that the provision is unenforceable.

This is obviously an unjustifiable intrusion into parental prerogative to say nothing of free speech.

[Fleshdancer]

14. Sounds like someone is interviewing for the Supreme Court position

This is absolutely insane. :grr:

[gtar100]

240. That's what I thought - He's trying to get a promotion like Owens

He sees the writing on the walls - all bets are off for these loonies. Time to remake America in the image of the neo-con god (aka Satan).

[havocmom]

15. Can a judge be sued for violating someone's civil rights?

Cause this sanctimonious SOB did just that.

[ninkasi]

17. This guy will probably be one of Chimp's

picks for a higher court nomination. The fundies would swoon over keeping a parent from teaching Pagan beliefs. In addition, it leaves the way open for "mainstream" religion to be defined. What happens if the parents are Muslim? How will the decision be made about whether the particular sect of Islam a parent is practicing is considered "mainstream" Muslim?

And oh, the horrors of subjecting a child to these wicked beliefs

"The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth."

Judges like this one are the main reason we need to preserve the filibuster, to keep dangerous, insane presidents from packing the courts with judges who are actually activist, but whose decisions appeal to the wing nut faction. There will soon be nothing left of the Constitution.

[Beetwasher]

18. He's Angling For A Supreme Court Nomination

n/t

[LostinVA]

19. As a Practicing Pagan, this pisses me off

How dare he marginalize my beliefs? I was raised Catholic and give proper respect to everyone's belief system, as long as they don't shove it down my throat.

This has to be unconstitutional.

[HuckleB]

23. It shouldn't matter what you practice.

Nor what belief system the judge tramples upon.

Everyone should be pissed off by this attack upon American ideals.

[LostinVA]

33. Of course it pisses me off for those reasons!

But it affects me personally, too!

[ninkasi]

145. I can understand how upset you must be

It is apparently perfectly fine for hate filled, vicious, people like Fred Phelps to have a church which mostly attacks, with great venom, anything to do with being gay or lesbian. His website is even something like God Hates Fags; so members of his hateful church are within their rights to pass on this venomous, twisted message to their children, right?

But Pagans...how dangerous! Teaching respect for the earth, and other people. Doing no harm. Practicing, and living, a life full of love for our Great Mother, the earth. Ironic, isn't it, that if a "Pagan" agenda were to be followed, we might have less pollution, less cutting of old growth forests, cleaner water and air...all because of the respect given to the earth and earth's creatures.

I can not imagine a Pagan making the decision to invade Iraq. Just as I can't imagine a person who practices true Christianity, following Christ's teachings, or any of many other religions which are trying to preach messages of love and acceptance. There are many religions, all have their good points.

The problem is when religion is used as a tool to justify hatred, greed, and corruption. There is much to be respected and admired in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Budd ism, Hinduism, so many other. This judge is clearly the kind of fanatic the right wing wants passing judgment on the rest of us.

There are many faiths I'm sure I omitted, when I commented on the many different beliefs people have; forgive me if I didn't include yours, this was not meant as a slight, merely ignorance on my part of the many different religions people on earth practice. We should be free to practice whichever one ours is, unless it is used to force our beliefs unto others.

[LostinVA]

167. Very, very nice post -- you said very much what I feel n/t

[Dragonfli]

173. Wiccan Values = 'An Ye Harm None

The Wiccan Rede


Bide ye Wiccan laws ye must,

in perfect love and perfect trust.

Live and let live, fairly take and fairly give.

Form the circle thrice about, to keep all evil spirits out.

To bind ye spell every time, let ye spell be spake in rhyme.

Soft of eye, light of touch, speak ye little, listen much.

Deosil go by the waxing moon, singing out ye Witches’ Rune.

Widdershins go by the waning moon, chanting out ye Baneful Rune.

When the Lady’s moon is new, kiss your hand to her times two.

When the moon rides at her peak, then ye heart’s desire seek.

Heed the North wind’s mighty gale, lock the door and trim the sail.

When the wind comes from the South, love will kiss thee on the mouth.

When the wind blows from the West, departed souls may have no rest.

When the wind blows from the East, except the new and set the feast.

Nine woods in ye cauldron go, burn them fast and burn them slow.

Elder be ye Lady’s tree, burn it not or cursed ye’ll be.

When the wheel begins to turn, soon ye Beltaine fire’ll burn.

When the wheel hath turned to Yule, light the log the Horned One rules.

Heed ye flower, bush and tree, by the Lady blessed be.

Where the rippling waters flow, cast a stone and truth ye’ll know.

When ye have and hold a need, harken not to others greed.

With a fool no season spend, nor be counted as his friend.

Merry meet and merry part, bright the cheeks and warm the heart.

Mind ye threefold law ye should, three times bad and three times good.

When misfortune is anow, wear the blue star upon thy brow.

True in love ye must ever be, lest thy love be false to thee.

In these eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill,

‘An ye harm none, do what ye will.

[FizzFuzz]

221. Lovely!

I practice Buddhism, but I love Wicca too.

This country is getting very scary.

[lostnfound]

186. NOT being a practicing pagan, this pisses me off

on your behalf, and others like you.

It certainly should be unconstitutional.

[LostinVA]

205. My thanks, lostnfound n/t

[gratuitous]

20. Remind me again . . .

Which party was using the scare tactic last election that if they lost, the Christian Bible would be banned? And what is this judge doing to this couple in violation of their First Amendment rights? And let me guess his party affiliation.

Tell me that one again about "heartland values." It always cracks me up!

[WhiteTara]

21. we are back to the good ole Inquisition?

Next we will find ourselves jailed, tortured and killed for Jesus.

[Dervill Crow]

217. "The last time they mixed politics and religion,

people got burned at the stake." Actually in the US they were hung.

As an interesting sidenote, I recently heard on a History Channel or A&E show--one of those--that the Salem witch brouhaha ended when someone accused the wife of some government official of being a witch. Haven't researched it, but wouldn't that just figure?

Thank gods for the ACLU to keep these judges in line!

[WhiteTara]

235. Don't forget the Goddesses

Loving the Goddess is what caused people to be killed, not really the gods.

[HuckleB]

22. Wow! Somehow, some way, I woke up to an even scarier world.

Another un-American judge acts to tear down the Constitution.

Ugh.

:mad:

[LizW]

24. Unbelievable.

The judge inserted this of his own accord into the divorce decree over the fierce objection of both divorcing parents. They both practice Wicca, so it is not a case of dispute between the parents. It is the judge arbitrarily deciding that the parents' religion is bad for the child.

This will never stand up on appeal, but if it did, it would set a precedent for a Christian judge to order Jewish parents not to raise their children in the Jewish religion (since some Christians believe Jews are certain to go to hell).

Insanity.

[HuckleB]

25. Yeah.

When I read the headline, I assumed it must be a dispute between the parents. I was friggin' shocked to find out the truth of the story.

Ugh.

[Sabriel]

26. Hmmm, I'm an atheist with two kids

Do I have to watch what I say to them about believing or not believing?

[Warpy]

27. Now that's a ruling that'll get overturned FAST.

I love cases like this, where some smug wingnut stomps all over the rights of the minority. I can even dream that this particular judge will be busted back to probating wills in Podunk. With the ICLU involved, it can happen.

The poor sanctimonious twit apparently had his circuits overloaded when he found out the kid was going to a Catholic school, and thought the poor kid might be confused by what he heard at home versus what he heard in the Catholic indoctrination classes.

Well, I went to Catholic school, and I remember classmates who were Jewish, Muslim, Protestant and nonreligious. In some towns, those Catholic schools were the best alternative to decayed public schools, and parents subjected the kids to indoctrination in return for smaller class size and more individual attention. It's not unusual, at all.

Let's hope Judge Bradford enjoys a speedy trip to unemployment and oblivion and that his successor has a grip on reality, has read the constitution, and respects the rights of parents and children.

[Bridget Burke]

35. I know at least one Indian (from Calcutta) who attended Catholic schools.

They have some of the best schools in India. He & the other students thought the Catholic religion quite amusing. And his belief in Lord Krishna (et al.) was not shaken.

[Pacifist Patriot]

48. I know a ton of UU children who were exposed to a wide

variety of beliefs throughout their Religious Education who grew up to be spiritually confident adults. Confusing to the child my fanny.

[Dervill Crow]

224. Right on!

I wrote and deleted a whole bunch of words trying to convey that message. Good job. :yourock:

[DuaneBidoux]

150. This is the kind of ruling we can expect NOT to have overturned

If Shrub continues to stack the Federal Appeals courts with his own wingnuts.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jackster]

36. aren't all religions "made up"

that just didn't make any sense!

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brooklynite]

69. So your point appears to be...

...that if you can keep your religion going for 100 years or so, the stuff you "made up" becomes "tradition", and is then acceptable?

I'm an atheist and, to be perfectly frank, all religious tenets seem to me to be made up somewhere along the way. However, the fundamental question, and certainly the point this judge missed, is whether or not the adherents believe it. If Wiccans believe what they profess, their religion deserves the same respect as any other. If your position is that Wiccan's DON'T believe in its tenents, perhaps you'll enlighten us with evidence supporting that position.

[patcox2]

82. I distinguish between ceremony and doctrine.

Religion has ceremonial elements, and it has doctrinal elements. Mystical religions may not have much in the way of coherent doctrine.

I personally like the ceremonial aspects of religion more than the doctrinal, because my own religious beliefs tend toward the mystical. By which I mean that I distrust all doctrine precisely because the doctrine is made up and likely false, whereas the truth is mysterious and likely unknowable.

From that perspective, to me the only thing "true" about a religion is its tradition and ceremony. I don't beleive in doctrine any more than you.

Part of the mystical religious experience is the participation in traditional ceremony. It creates a sense ot time-transcending connectedness. Ever take part in a seder, and realize you are doing the same things and saying the same words as people thousands of years ago, the whole tradition being passed down generation to generation? Its eery. you feel them, the long gone that you are following.


So I am saying that a ceremonial tradition can be "real," and it can be "made up." To the extent Wiccan claims direct connection to ancient beliefs and ceremonies, I would say that this is a false statement, whereas to the extent catholicism claims direct connection to ancient beliefs and ceremonies, that is a true statement. not that I am a catholic, just an example.

[Pacifist Patriot]

98. Point by point....

Religion has ceremonial elements, and it has doctrinal elements. Mystical religions may not have much in the way of coherent doctrine.

You seem to be referring to theology, mythology and ritual. Some religions may not be creedal in their theology, but that doesn't mean it is lacking or not coherent. Ritual is the inactment of mythological constructs within the religion, not theological or doctrinal.

By which I mean that I distrust all doctrine precisely because the doctrine is made up and likely false, whereas the truth is mysterious and likely unknowable.

I will agree that theology is a process of establishing doctrines and creeds. At least when it comes to institutional theology. However, some theologies/doctrines assert that truth is mysterious and ineffable. Some of these theologies are quite ancient and some recent. Time isn't necessarily what makes one more valid than the other.

From that perspective, to me the only thing "true" about a religion is its tradition and ceremony. I don't beleive in doctrine any more than you.

In other words you prefer an established mythology which has been around long enough for corresponding ritual to have been overlayed upon it.

Part of the mystical religious experience is the participation in traditional ceremony. It creates a sense ot time-transcending connectedness. Ever take part in a seder, and realize you are doing the same things and saying the same words as people thousands of years ago, the whole tradition being passed down generation to generation? Its eery. you feel them, the long gone that you are following.

I've taken part in a ritual that pre-dates the seder and I've taken part in a ritual that wase created from scratch in the last six months. Both produced a transcendent experience that has remained with me. Ritual is either effective or not. And not all rituals convey the same results to all people. You are making judgments based on personal experience and closing your mind and heart to the idea that others will not experience the same results.


So I am saying that a ceremonial tradition can be "real," and it can be "made up."

Your are saying that the early Christ cults that adapted the Eucharist from the Near Eastern mystery cults were experiencing a "made up" ceremonial tradition which could not possibly be felt as deeply then as it can in the Catholic mass today. Does this not sound absurd to you?

To the extent Wiccan claims direct connection to ancient beliefs and ceremonies, I would say that this is a false statement, whereas to the extent catholicism claims direct connection to ancient beliefs and ceremonies, that is a true statement.

Actually quite a false statement. Wicca and Catholism have some common ancient sources and some different ones. Simply because there was a historical break for Wicca as opposed to a continuous church history for Catholicism does not negate Wiccan roots in ancient belief and ritual. Continuity may count for something with you, but it doesn't render earth-based spirituality something new-fangled.

[CornField]

72. Interestingly enough, the earth religions were in existance prior to

Christianity. Many of those in local covens have had paganism in their families for generations.

But, please, don't let any of this stop you from continuing to bash my religion.

[Pacifist Patriot]

80. Interestingly enough, ...

Christianity owes much of its traditions to earth religions. But then you know that. ;)

[Pacifist Patriot]

77. I respectfully suggest you learn a bit more about

religion before going much further. Your ignorance is glaring.

[BiggJawn]

42. Kinda like Chrisitianity, eh?

And all the rest of them, too. ALL religion is just an attempt by Man to provide an explanation for things he doesn't posess the Science to understand. Oh, and also, I forgot the bit about providing justification for killing people who don't believe like you do...

Oh, and Kwanzaa is a HOLIDAY, not a religion...

" Half the believers probably just get off on being different."

Sounds like some Christians I knew who made a big show out of praying before eating the beans and weenies at the company picnic...

[LostinVA]

43. Excuse me? What gives you the right to insult the many Pagans

on DU like that? Or any Pagan or Wiccan for that matter? It's not a "silly" religion; it is a religion. The form of Wicca is relatively new, but the basic beliefs (animus, duality of gods) is not. And so what if it is? The longevity of a belief system doesn't mean one is better or worse than another.

I do not "get off" on being different. Many people who know me very well don't even know I'm a Pagan, because I consider my spiritual life private. If you saw me, I would look "normal."

Again, how dare you. I would never say this about anyone's religions, or lack of if they're atheists.

God, what intolerance on DU.

[patcox2]

53. But its okay when its the pope? Insults, I mean?

Catholicism, insults, okay, judaism, insults not okay, wicca, respectful words only, its so complicated. Just so I know the rules.

[LostinVA]

61. Did you read my post? No?

I never make any blanket statements about ANY religion. I dislike the current Pope's views on many things. I don't hate Catholics. I was raised one, my aunt is a Nun. I dislike the things some rabbis have said, etc.

YOU are the intolerant, not me. It isn't complicated at all. I treat everyone with respect until they give me a reason not to. When Pope Benedict called me "evil," when he has stated things about women, then yes, I have a right to say something. Or Jerry Falwell. Or whatever.

But you know that already.

I don't give a damn what anyone believes, but you would ahve known that had you read my post.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

121. Hey, Patcox..you should watch Holywatergate...it's playing

on Showtime now. Then after seeing the Catholic Church actively intimidate witnesses for two decades against the advice of their council, and seeing them choose Cardinal Law of all people to speak to the world at the Pope's funeral and KNOWING that the HIGHEST level of the Church, YES ROME, circumvented the law and placed tens of thousands of children in harm's way...THEN come back and complain of criticism of the Pope.

[TankLV]

245. Oh - it's you again patcox2. Why am I not surprised?

You should know better, but apparently, you haven't learned a thing yet.

Your spew just makes me laugh now.

[Pacifist Patriot]

54. I understand your frustration.

I found the comment to be in poor taste and undoubtedly generated out of ignorance. I hope your last sentence wasn't an indictment against DU, just this post. Remember there are tolerant and intolerant people everywhere.

[LostinVA]

63. I'm talking about this specific poster, Patriot

I don't think it was made out of ignorance, but rather out of provocation.

I've been reading DU since the beginning, posting for a few months, and I know how things can be. I think this post was nasty.

btw... I go to the local UU church with my friend quite a bit, and that's where a local Pagan group meets. UU rocks!

[patcox2]

68. Provocation can be good.

It can generate communication sometimes. I like the UUs even more now that I know that.

[LostinVA]

73. Provocation is good, bigotry & intolerance isn't n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

79. Provokation rarely leads to productive communication.

Provoking isn't exactly the best way to get someone to open up. I would suggest starting with honest questions rather than blanket assumptions.

[patcox2]

152. Go tell Act Up, and the rest

Who have opened eyes and made a difference through provocation.

I am just against using schoolchildren as agents of provocation, as so many christians now do, sending them to school with proselityzing clothing, badges, etc, then suing to vindicate their "rights" when the authorities prohibit it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

155. I'm talking about context, consider your forum.

I don't think it is necessary to provoke someone here in order to engage in a productive dialogue.

And I don't see anyone advocating using school children as agents of provocation. I do see people who have more faith in their convictions, their children and their community than you do. My son is the only UU in the neighborhood. His little pack of buddies includes two Lutherans, a non-affiliated Christian agnostic, a Mormon and the child of a conservative evangelical Christian minister. Another group he belongs to is comprised of liberal Christians, Jews, pagans and atheists. Only once has religion ever been a problem and that was because he wanted to go to G's church after a sleepover and G wanted to go to ours.

Expect the worst and you'll get it.

I'm not turning a blind eye to this moron of a judge and what his actions represent, but I also don't think he is typical of what our children are experiencing.

[brooklynite]

132. I walked out of UU Sunday school when I was seven...

As an atheist, their philosophy didn't bother me; I just didn't see the point of "organized" religion.

[Pacifist Patriot]

135. LOL! I don't often hear UUs described as "organized."

Cheers!

[LostinVA]

140. I just called my UU friend and read her this

She cracked up at the "organized" too.

[patcox2]

67. To be less insulting, here is another try.

I will preface this by saying I strongly disagree with the judge, parents do have the right to fuck up their children and raise them mormon or scientologist or whatever.

But, I do appreciate his sentiment. Wiccan may not be intended by its adherents as attention-getting, but it certainly is attention getting, especially when you go to a catholic schoool, as this boy does.

Its difficult enough to be a child. Its even more, much more, difficult when you are different.

If I were a parent, and I did have a faith which I honestly believed in, but which I knew was outside the mainstream and would result in attentiona and perhaps some teasing and harrassment, I think I would take the position, with regard to raising my child, that since childhood is hard enough, I would leave off on indoctrinating him in my religion and let him make his own choice when he is older.

Thats not to say I think the judge was right to order these parents to do that. but I am saying that if I were a parent, its what I would do.

[Pacifist Patriot]

70. I think this phrase says it all...

"If I were a parent,..."

I appreciate your attempt to be less insulting, but I cannot agree with your perspective. It is dishonest and exactly what helps "mainstream" oppress those who would be different. If more people celebrated their differences rather than hide them we'd probably see a lot more tolerance.

I am a parent and I'm raising my children to be who they are, not what other people think they should be.

[patcox2]

84. I am a parent, you edited what I said.

I said "If I were a parent with non-mainstream religious beliefs." And I see no conflict between what you just said, and what I said, you said you raise your children to be themselves. I said that I would not indoctrinate my children with my religious beliefs, but would rather allow them to make their choice when mature enough. is this not raising them to be themselves?

[Pacifist Patriot]

95. My apologies, but the comma in your sentence changed

your meaning. As written "if I were a parent, and I had...." indicated you were not a parent.

I suppose it depends upon what you mean by indoctrinate. The word has a negative connotation. I cannot imagine having deeply held beliefs and not sharing them with my children when they inevitably ask spiritual questions. I'm certainly not going to give them the traditional Christian answers if that is not what I believe simply because it will help them "get along better" with their ignorant peers. UUism is all about raising children who have the spiritual maturity to pursue their own unique path. But the way to get there is not by hiding who I am.

I do see a conflict with your position and mine.

[LostinVA]

81. Let's go one further

Let's make believe Mommy isn't really gay, and she'll marry a man because that will be less hard for you growing up; Since we're so light-0skinned, let's try and pass for white, because that will be easier on you; I know we're Jewish, but we live in this little Freeper town, so we're going to become Baptists now, it'll be easier on you.

You can clothe your bigotry in concern but it's still bigotry.

I very much like discussing nd debating, but I don't debate with someone who is disrespectful and intolerant of my choices, thus I am ignoring your thread.

How can you expect someone to respect your beliefs when you don't respect theirs?

[Bridget Burke]

83. Which faiths do you define as "non-mainstream"?

Why should one suppress deeply-held beliefs & avoid passing them on to children?

Teasing & harrassment can occur for many reasons. They should be combated when they occur.

[patcox2]

88. I would not teach my child anything that would get rocks thrown at him.

Sorry, but thats my belief.

I may beleive that I have the right to be different and to say and practice what I beleive, I do beleive that, strongly. I am an adult and I make those decisions in full knowledge of the consequences.

But I would never throw my child to the wolves on a point of principle. That to me is selfish. After all, my child has the right to beleive what he wants, I have no right to indoctrinate him. In 10 years he may be an atheist or a buddhist, or a christian, or whatever, and cursing his parents for teaching him to be a wiccan and sending him off to school to get picked on for no good reason.

Kinda like that buffoon in california who used his daughter to attack the pledge of allegiance. Why not just leave her alone.

[Coventina]

122. Like standing against the KKK? Or the Nazi youth?

Would you be proud of a child that grew up thinking that nothing is worth getting rocks thrown at you?

Moral instruction begins at day one of life. It isn't a package handed to you on your 18th birthday.

[Occulus]

229. Suppose your child had a talent.

Suppose, better yet, your child has a talent he or she is so obviously gifted in that it's apparent from the time they are five years old. I don't know if you could call that a prodigy; it's not necessary for this question. Just suppose you have an even moderately gifted kid.

Let's say they're musically gifted. However, their desire to use that sets them off and apart from other kids, to the point that they find it very easy to single your kid out for social islation or bullying. You know it is your child's behavior as a talented child that sets them apart; the kid is practicing their music instead of going out and playing soccer, or rehearsing a solo instead of going to the dance. Use your imagination.

Do you:

a) encourage your child, throughout their life, to use and develop their talent to its fullest extent, even if that means that they end up socially isolated or bullied/harassed,

or

b) encourage your child to try to do the same things other people their age are doing, at the expense of their natural talent or ability?

You may choose between exactly those options; no 'third choice'. This is purely hypothetical. I'll gift you: you may substitute any other method of handling the situation you can think of for option b.

This is a thought experiment. What's your solution?

[TankLV]

246. So now it's the fault of the parent's and and the child -

not the yahoos who do the rock throwing!

Just like saying that gays shouldn't allowed to be parents because some yahoos somewhere might be justifiably and understandably provoked into harming them some way.

You are indeed a priceless sole - in a perverted way.

[TankLV]

247. Wel fuck you for your bullshit!

I have read some posts of yours in the past, but this time it takes the cake!

Do you even hear yourself?!?!

[brooklynite]

87. Let's argue this in another context

suppose you had to relocate to, say, Texas (assuming you're not there now) and everyone in your town, including the folks at the PTA, playgroups, little league teams, etc. were staunch right-wing conservatives (bible-thumping optional). Would you re-register as a Republican, or at the very least, never discuss your political convictions with your child? After all, "Its difficult enough to be a child. Its even more, much more, difficult when you are different" and your contrary positions might "result in attentiona and perhaps some teasing and harrassment".

[patcox2]

93. I wouldn't move to Texas.

I mean, why would I want to live amongst bible-thumping yahoos. Again, its part of my concern for my child, for his sake I would not put him in that environment. But if I were in Texas, and if I had decided, as an adult, that I wanted to be a wiccan despite the social consequences, I would understand that I had made that decision as a mature person and aware of the consequences. But I would not indoctrinate my child in my beleifs, because my child is not mature enough to choose whether and in what religion to believe, and further, I have no right to make the decision for him that he will just have to endure the social consequences of being different.

I live in this world, a tolerant world would be nice, but as long as I live in the real world, I will take every step possible to spare my child intolerance and pain. Its hard enough growing up.

And I think saying "well he has a right to be different and I am going to send him to school and they all better just be tolerant" is a nice prinicipled stance, but its sure not pleasant for the kid.

Again, an adult might want to take that stand, but the kid is not capable of making the independant judgment to do so, a 5, 10, or 13 year old is inherently influenced by parents.

[Bridget Burke]

97. Not everybody in Texas is a bible-thumping Yahoo.

But it's hard to compete with The Garden State.

[Pacifist Patriot]

99. I've lived in both.

I'm happy in Florida. ;)

[patcox2]

112. I got 10 miles outside of Gainesville once, here is what I heard:

"Well, loooky here, looks like we got us a college boy. Say something smart, college boy; I bet you can't outsmart this fist."

Yup, yahoos are everywhere.

[Pacifist Patriot]

134. Just be sure you drive through Gainesville with your windows rolled up.

U of F might throw in a diploma.

[patcox2]

149. You're thinking of UM

Must be.

[patcox2]

117. The question that was asked me presupposed those conditions.

I am actually half-texan myself.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coventina]

107. Yeah, whatever happened to standing up for what is right

regardless of the personal cost?

:shrug:

[patcox2]

115. personal cost to a 5 year old.

Sure, go ahead and use your children as the vehicle for the vindication of your right to be different. They'll thank you later for the wonderful happy childhood.

[Coventina]

120. So what you are telling me is that children should not receive

any moral instructions that may lead to them having to make the right choice over the easy choice?

[brooklynite]

139. Kids are more resiliant that you think...

In 1969 when I was 10 (the catalyst for my original comment), my parents moved from liberal NYC (where I had helped my Mother on the McCarthy campaign) to the Philippines. My friends and schoolmates were army brats, sons of embassy staff and kids of missionaries (after, the Philippines' 80+ million Catholics have to be rescued from their "incorrect" religious choice). It is not an exaggeration to say that, in 1972, Nixon won the school's mock election with 95% of the vote.

Under your philosophy, my parents should have avoided any discussions of religion or politics, to better allow us to fit in. Considering what was going on in the world however, that would have led to some pretty dull dinnertime conversations.

As a result of being enccourage to pay attention to current events and to think critically, when Watergate broke out, I was able and willing, as a 13-year old, to argue the issue and hold my own in a discussion with any adult who might think differently. Was I in the minority. You betcha. Did it bother me? No it didn't.

[conflictgirl]

225. You're missing something really important here

You're implying that somehow pagans are making a "lifestyle choice" that they should just stop because it might get their kids teased. Would you ever tell a Catholic parent that they shouldn't practice their religion because their kid might get teased at a school where hardcore Baptists are the majority (and think that Catholics are one step removed from Satanists)?

Where do you draw the line? Under your rationale, gay people shouldn't have kids because the kids might get teased. Parents who both have glasses shouldn't have kids because of the high likelihood that their kids will have glasses too, and would get teased.

The solution is not to teach people to change themselves so they minimize their odds of getting teased. The solution is to teach kids how to respect others!

[patcox2]

109. Oh, the drama, why dontcha call dyfs on me?

Yes indeedy, I will teach my children that in order to get along in the world, one should avoid unnecessary confrontation and provocation.

Are you suggesting that I should teach my children to be like obnoxious, proselytizing, jesus-spouting evangelicals, wearing their beliefs on their sleaves, demanding recognition from everyone round them of what they really ought to just keep to themselves?

[CornField]

113. My, my... in your own words above: "Provocation can be good"

Then, in the post just before this one: "Yes indeedy, I will teach my children that in order to get along in the world, one should avoid unnecessary confrontation and provocation."

Which one is it?

[patcox2]

116. See, it worked, it got me to expound and explain further.

Whats your response? Do you not see that if you take your argument too far, you suddenly find yourself in bad company?

[CornField]

129. Avoidance of the question, eh?

Fine. Let's get back to the basics of your posts:

1) On the whole, pagans are the least 'in your face' of all religions. We do not actively seek to increase our numbers and there is no call to witness. My beliefs are inside of me and personal. There are very few people in my life who could tell you of my religious choices.

When it comes to pagans, I'm the rule not the exception. We are not marching in parades, nor driving around with religious advertisments on our vehicles, or even sporting the symbols of our faith as body adornments.

The exception are the young people who enjoy dressing goth and calling themselves a witch for the shock and awe value. I fear these are the only pagans you've ever met --- or at least the only people you've ever met who admitted to being pagan.

So, your primary assumption that Wicca/paganism is merely an attention ploy is fundamentally flawed.

2) You state that all religion is "made up" at some point but can claim legitimacy by withstanding the test of time. You speak of traditions handed down through generations as a religious circle of life and a connection to those who went before us.

You attempt the assumption that Wicca/paganism is new and, therefore, not privy to well-established roots. This is another false assumption on your part. The earth religions - what's left of them - were literally attacked by what are now considered "mainstream" religions. The earth religions' holy days were taken prisoner and have yet to be released. (Yule, Samhain, Ostara -- look them up and find Christmas, All Hallows Eve/All Saints Day and Easter). Look at the tentaments of the Christian faith and general secular teachings and see the symbols of my faith: egg, rabbit, harvest, holiday tree, wreath, and so much more. (During what month would Joseph and Mary have traveled to pay taxes? Hint: It wasn't December.)

Pieces of the earth religions reside in every other religion on the planet. When you point at religious ceremony and doctrine as evidence of it being a mainstream religion, you are most likely pointing at religious ceremony and/or doctrine I observed within the last year at a religious ceremony.

3) The most sad thing of all is that in the midst of a thread which should have drawn *all* religions and *all* non-religious together for a common goal -- separation of church and state -- you felt the need to take a swipe at a religious belief which you obviously do not understand and do not care to understand.

[LostinVA]

142. I'm in love with you, Corny...

You said exactly what I should have said.

[Mojorabbit]

169. Ditto

[Pacifist Patriot]

147. Well said.

Considering the plethora of Jesus fish and WWJD bumperstickers on cars, crucifix jewelry, huge buildings with steeples and crosses, nativity scenes, public prayer, televangelists and marketing pieces I find in my mailbox and on my front door from local churches I think the idea of Wicca as an "attention seeking" religion to be patently absurd.

[conflictgirl]

226. Since when is having an uncommon religion "unnecessary provocation"?

Are only parents with so-called "acceptable" religions allowed to teach their religious beliefs to their kids? Should parents who deeply believe in vegetarianism let their kids eat hot dogs so it won't cause unnecessary confrontation? We're not talking about making kids into mouthpieces for their parents' beliefs, we're talking about the rights of parents to choose how to raise their own children.

[marshall]

127. Texas

It's hard to imagine how this judge thought he could step in like this and bring up an issue that wasn't even being argued by the parents. I too thought it was a problem between a Wiccan and non-Wiccan parent when I read the headline. Were I the judge I might privately find it odd that the parents are sending the child to a parochial school with Christian tenets, I don't see how he can justify what he did.
Maybe there is more to the story, another piece that would make it make sense. I suppose if the parents were having a real knock down drag out divorce, throwing away all their money to attorney fees in pointless grandstandings, the judge might think they need to re-prioritize. But even then, in the worst case scenario, I don't see how he could justify making anything more than a suggestion.

[suziedemocrat]

100. Almost everyone and every family is "different" is some way.

Believe me - I'm a vegetarian in Indiana. It's better now - but in the mid-80's when I first became a vegetarian - people thought I did it to "get attention." It made people angry and they thought I should just shut up and eat a hamburger. I became almost a complete hermit! That is until I left this state and vegetarianism became more common. Now I'm back and I hate it here just as much as I ever did. I've read where people think vegetarians should feed their children meat. People incorrectly think meat is necessary for a growing child.

Society can dictate ANY thing we do. But should we all just lose our individuality and become cookie-cutter people? Is that what we want? If that happens - the economy will grind to a halt. Creativity and individualism spur new ideas - which spurs progress. The Indianapolis Star did a series a year or so ago that Indiana's conservative culture hindered progress in the state. That's why we are just now trying to figure out how to deal with auto plants closing. Prgress starts with non-mainstream ideas.

So - we should embrace individuality - and that to me is the heart of the Democratic Party. People may do that that seem unusual or even unpleasant to me - but, as long as those things are not violent, I'll do whatever it takes to defend their right to do them.

Some religion that is stockpiling weapons or molesting children or engaging in criminal activity - I could see not letting that happen. But - wicca is very misunderstood. I'm sure the judge thought of them as akin to "devil worshipers." Believe me - I saw a psychic and a born-again Christian friend told me I was cavorting with the devil!

[Inland]

110. I can respect the feeling that one doesn't want one's kids to stand out

but if there is a real religious belief behind it, you just have to make a decision.

Wear a headscarf? Yamulke? Crucifix?

Put up Christmas lights? Frosty?



The real problem is anyone but the parents making the decision. Their kid, their religion, and as with all children, the kids live with their parents decisions, good or bad. Nobody is being killed or abused by the parents. The state should not be dictating. End of story.

[rainbow4321]

202. Try being a vegetarian UU in Texas

My poor daughter had to spend some time with the redneck side of the family not long ago and had a piece of meat literally put up close to her face..she got up and walked out of the family gathering..the excuse given "sorry, the guy that did that was drunk".
Whenever I try to explain UU principles, I got looked at like I am from another planet. "Huh? What? Understanding and respecting all religions and lifestyles? Um, so WHAT is it that you believe?"

Scott McClellan's mother is TX state treasurer..a few years back, she tried to DENY a local UU church tax exempt status because the congregation didn't have a "single belief". The media and lawyers stepped in and she backed down.

I'm sending one of my kids down to AUSTIN this year for school...getting her into a saner, blue part of TX.

[Coventina]

101. Gee, thanks for the "less insulting" version

:sarcasm:

[TankLV]

248. Hahahahaha!

Thanks for the laugh!

The poster will never understand it.

Sad.

[LibertyLover]

119. As a pagan parent

I disagree. There is a word for what you suggest and it's called hypocrisy.

[Zhade]

179. I hope you take the same stance on every other belief system.

You know, not wanting to indoctrinate kids into the Christian faith, for example.

If you're applying it selectively, you're a hypocrite and a bigot. Don't be these things.

[IndianaGreen]

187. Catholic schools have non-Catholic students

and the non-Catholic students are not proselytized by the clergy (their parents have to fork big bucks for the enrollment).

My brother went to "Shityard" when it first opened its doors, that's what I called Chatard High School. My brother liked the school. He was never hassled about not being Catholic (beer drinking seems to have been the big thing at that school).

[JerseygirlCT]

201. Well, you're certainly entitled to your choice on this

which is actually the whole point. But I'd change the education (that is, Catholic school) that is apparently causing the confusion before I'd change my family's faith.

Personally, I'm not of the "let them decide for themselves as adults" school of thought, but I know many are.

And I really don't think Wicca is so far out of the mainstream these days. Maybe it is more so in the bible belt?

[Dervill Crow]

223. Paganism and catholicism have some similarities.

Transubstantiation comes to mind. Of course the fundies aren't crazy about catholicism, either.

[PassingFair]

251. And I think you should practice your religion

from a priesthole in your basement... :sarcasm:
WTF! You have got to be kidding me!
You mean to tell me that if you were raising kids in an islamic country, you'd "leave off indoctrinating him in YOUR religion and let him make his own choice when he is older"? Yeah, I believe you. Hail mary!

[HuckleB]

44. I don't buy into Wicca. But then I don't buy into any religion.

So I certainly don't see following Wicca as "an attention getting display." At least no more so than following any other religion. Certainly, less so than those with fish and "Jesus Saves" and "Got Jesus?" on their car bumpers.

[Pacifist Patriot]

50. LOL! Mind giving me an example of a religion that isn't made up?

As someone working on her dissertation for her D.Div I am extraordinarily interested in your answer.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

76. lol: "made up religion"

care to elaborate on which ones aren't made up?
let me guess you know which ones are the "true religions".....

[Roland99]

78. Hmm...ignorance knows no bounds

Kwanzaa is NOT a religion for one thing.

Also, the Pagan religion was around LOOOONG before the currently accepted version of Christianity ever thought to grace this planet with its lies and deceits.

[420inTN]

161. re: Pagan religion

"Also, the Pagan religion was around LOOOONG before the currently accepted version of Christianity ever thought to grace this planet with its lies and deceits.

Which one? Which of today's pagan religions has been around that long?

[LostinVA]

166. The poster said Pagan "religion"

I believe they are meaning nature-centered religions in general. There is much historical evidence to show that nature-centered religions in many forms have been around for eons. Even if the TRAPPINGS of these ancient religion can't be known by Neo-Pagans, the fundamentals tenets are. And, it is not the fault of Pagans that their ancient traditions had to be reconstructed or even "made up" -- it was a belief system that was almost destroyed in Europe (except for some Baltic areas). But, in many other parts of the world there is a pretty unbroken line, no matter what missionaries have tried to do (South America, Native Americans, etc.).

I believe the poster means the Moon, the Sun, The Elements. Animus. All of it.

[420inTN]

215. the poster said "THE Pagan religion" (emphasis mine)

so, I was wondering, specifically, to which aspect/version he referred.

[LostinVA]

220. AS per his answer above, that is not how he meant it

There is no THE Pagan religion; it's like saying THE Christianity religion. There is Paganism like there is Christianity. A set of basic beliefs,a nd a whole heck of a slew in which to practice and customize them.

[420inTN]

222. I realize that, I was merely explaining my request. n/t

[Roland99]

175. Take your pick

Egyptian, Norse, Roman, Greek, Druidic philosophy.

[joefree1]

231. Hinduism

"Hinduism is generally considered to be the oldest religion still being practiced today. This ancient religion was born when the Aryan peoples migrated to Northern India and first put their religious tradition into writing. The texts they created are the Vedas, which were written around 1,500 B.C.E. (before common era) and have greatly influenced Indian culture ever since."
http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20011106.html


Pagan DUers meet other Pagan DUers at:
Ancient Wisdom and Pagan Spirituality Group
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=262

[Coventina]

96. So the parents deserve to have their rights trampled on?

Because their pagan practices are an "attention getting display"?

Wow.


You know, most pagans are closeted, because the "burning times" are fresh in our memories. How nice of you to belittle and insult people for trying to raise their child in the religion of their choice.

[Pacifist Patriot]

102. That had me chuckling.

I know quite a few pagan families and no one around would guess unless you knew them really well.

On the other hand, I see Jesus fish on the bumpers of cars, crucifixes on door frames, astounding nativity scenes on front lawns during December, pontificating evangelists on television and some massive buildings with steeples and crosses on them. Good thing Christianity isn't an attention getting display of religion.

[LostinVA]

130. I laughed at that too, Patriot

No one would know I was Pagan. I don't look like one of "them." Actually, none of the Pagans I know do, although quite a few of them do wear Birkenstocks... hmmmmm, maybe they are really Unitarians...

[Pacifist Patriot]

133. No, no, no!

We can't afford Birkenstocks. ;)

[LostinVA]

144. maybe they were Birkenstock ripoffs..... n/t

[BanzaiBonnie]

31. What part of the Constitution do they not understand?

This is outrageous!

Oh, that's right, the Constitution must be one of those quaint and antiquated documents.

[Pacifist Patriot]

32. Speechless. Again.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. What part of the First Amendment doesn't this judge understand?

:banghead:

[TankLV]

249. In the first place, he should have had NO OPINION on the subject

AT ALL, let alone spewing his assinine unconstitutional one.

This is so blatently wrong in so many ways, it's hard to choose where to begin.

Sad.

Really sad.

[Bridget Burke]

37. Most Fundamentalist religions began as "non-Mainstream"

And that was not so long ago. At one time, ALL Protestants were considered "non-Mainstream."

[Roland99]

38. Someone give this judge backcopies of the Wash. Times' Franklin Cover-up

[johnaries]

39. I just emailed Americans United for Separation of Church and State

www.au.org. This is the most BLATANT example of religious rights violation I have ever seen!

[Pacifist Patriot]

47. Agreed. I can't think of another more blatant example.

It reeks.

[Desertrose]

40. uh-oh.....

now we have judges telling what we can & cannot teach our kids??
:scared:

and a big FU to the judge & all narrow minded thinkers in power.....

[MadHound]

41. So let me get this straight.

This judge thinks it is fine to raise this child in a church and belief system that handles live, poisonous snakes, falls out and writhes around on the ground, babbles incoherently for long periods of time, pratices ritual symbolic cannablism, encourages the use of faith healing over real medicine, and whose members are subject to delusion when presented with certain wall stains or grilled cheese sandwiches. Yet a nature based religion is somehow too "out there" for the kiddies? What pope on a rope has this fool been smoking?

I'm sorry, but the Constitution hasn't been entirely trashed yet, and until it is, these parents have the right to raise their child in whatever religious belief THEY choose. Hopefully they appeal this outrageous ruling, and start looking into getting this out of line, ACTIVIST judge impeached.

[BiggJawn]

46. So teach him NO religion.

Inform the judge that he can expect calls from the kid when he asks those questions kids do...

[mom cat]

49. The fundies will sure have fun with this!

:puke:
Does this mean my daughter will have to give up her broomstick?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

51. How?

How is this judge going to enforce this bizarre order? I live in Indianapolis and saw this story on the front page this morning and was perplexed. The story clearly says that NEITHER parent was objecting to the teaching of Wicca so how is the judge even going to know exactly what these parents are teaching their child? Are the parents being forced to wear a wire or has the judge assigned a chaperone to monitor the parents' compliance with his order? Will he be using teachers, friends, neighbors, etc. as "informants?" How can the judge make such a bizarre and unconstitutional (and unenforceable) ruling like this?

[Pacifist Patriot]

55. I wondered that myself.

I'm also curious as to what church the judge attends.

[Khaotic]

52. Barely Scratching the Surface

I think this is just the beginning.

Wait till a case comes up where grandparents try to take custody of their grandchildren based on religious exposure.

Yeah ... you guessed it, it's just around the corner that if you have children and don't expose them to an exceptable religious upbringing, your own parent might attempt to take your children away from you ... and the courts will see it their way!!!!

I can't imagine how much of a blow up I would have against my Dad if I didn't at least attempt to bring my son and daughter up Catholic.

If I raised my son and daughter up to be agnostic or athest, then I wouldn't put it past him to throw around threats and such. He would let it eat away at his mind and he would NOT except that he couldn't do anything.

Right now it's that kind of thing that ends up with grandparents kidnapping their grandchildren, but soon they won't have to ... they'll just get a court papers and have their grandchildren taken away from their parents based on inappropreiate religious exposure.

Sheepeople this will happen, it's just around the corner and I can already hear Christian Reichers like O'Reily appaulding it.

This makes me ill!:puke:

[Pacifist Patriot]

56. Actually, those kind of disputes happen more often than we

realize. Tihs is unusual in that it is the judge against the parents. Intra-family wrangling over religion has been in our court system for quite awhile.

[HockeyMom]

170. Couple across the street

Husband was Jewish and the wife was Catholic. They married in the Catholic church and in so doing promised to raise the kids as Catholic. Although they went to Sunday school, made their Communion and Confirmation, they also attended Synagogue, were Bar and Bat Mizpath. The parents said they wanted them to be raised in both religions so when they were adults they could choose for themselves.

The kids turned out to the agnostics. All three of them. Too much religion?

[bluedonkey]

57. Shit for brains

Hope he retires soon.

[DefenseLawyer]

58. I have practiced in front of Judge Bradford

for years. Like most Judges he was a career prosecutor before being elected. He's not one of those raving ten commandments loonies, just an old school rightwing law-and-order crank, and as smug and evil as they come. He recently moved from a criminal court to a civil court. I guess he was so used to trampling criminal defendants' rights he figured he could do the same thing in divorce cases. Actually I'm sure he knew it wasn't enforceable when he did it. Just another activist judge for Jesus I guess.

[SemperEadem]

60. Sounds pretty unconstitutional to me--it'll be overturned on appeal

The reason why the judge didn't state a specific religion is because that truly would be state sponsored endorsement of religion. However, what he did is still unconstitutional.

Where are the republicans and their "less government intrusion into the lives of citizens"? Oh--I forgot--that's less government intrusion into the lives of corporations which is more important.

[TrogL]

62. What's with this "mainstream" religion thing?

Another judge got in trouble awhile ago for ruling that a lesbian mother's child attend a "mainstream" church.

I'm Anglo-Catholic - that's pretty esoteric. Is it mainstream? What about Coptic? Old Catholic? Quaker?

[PassingFair]

252. It's pretty clear that mainstream =

Abrahamic religion. No others need apply.

[JugDack]

64. Do I smell our next Supreme Court nominee?

Lucky thing we saved the fillibuster....

[CornField]

65. WHOA! Can you imagine the outcry if a judge ordered two Xtian parents

not to pass on their religious beliefs to their child?

The government has absolutely no right to tell any parent what religion their child can and cannot be exposed to -- or if the child should be exposed to any religion at all.

[Roland99]

71. Oh! But it's in the best interests of the child!

Can't have poor little Johnny being confused about Catholicism vs. Wicca.

[Pacifist Patriot]

74. Hopefully there will be plenty of people who can see it from the other

perspective. This judge needs to be removed from the bench.

[Roland99]

66. Indiana Judge Goes Activist on Divorcing Parents Over Religion

I just had to write about this one on my blog. Unbelievable!


http://www.conjur.com/blog/2005/05/26/indiana-judge-goes-activist-over-religion-on-divorcing-parents/

In a bizarre twist to a divorce case, Marion County (IN) Superior Court chief judge Cale J. Bradford has issued an order to Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol prohibiting them from exposing their 9 year-old son to “non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals.” Mr. Jones and Ms. Bristol are practicing Wiccans, a pagan religion which Jones says “is an understanding that we’re all connected, and respecting that.” Jones also said “I celebrate life as a duality. There’s a male and female force to everything. I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don’t believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil.”

Now, anyone with any common sense and the ability to think critically knows that pagan religions were the mainstream, at least throughout Europe, before Christianity took over (while usurping pagan rituals and holidays in the process.)

I wonder what Judge Bradford does consider to be a mainstream religion? Would it be one that he practices? And, if so, just what religion would that be? Perhaps Judge Bradford is prejudiced by mounds of false and wild claims made against pagan religions, including assertions that they are satanic cults. Methinks Judge Bradford would best be served with some remedial education into the formation of, oh, say, the Christian religion. Lots of skeletons in that closet.

But, regardless of Judge Bradford’s personal religious convictions, this order in the divorce decree flies in the face of a little document that seems to have been trod upon a lot lately. It’s called the Constitution of the United States of America. There’s a wee passage in the First Amendment which reads that “free exercise” of religion shall not be prohibited. Well, in Judge Bradford’s defense, the Constitution only refers to the United States Congress. And, after all, he’s but a mere civil servant in a judge’s robe. He’s not the Congress so surely he can pass any ruling he wants, right?

[IndianaGreen]

106. Judge Bradford is an elected official. He is up for reelection in 2006!

I think we should target his sorry ass when he runs for reelection.

Judge Bradford is the man in the picture:



http://www6.indygov.org/courts/

[Pacifist Patriot]

153. Why wait for re-election?

Can he be recalled or impeached? Probably too much trouble if he's up for re-election anyway, but I would certainly be raising the hew and cry now.

[Roland99]

176. How about disbarred? Reprimanded?

[MisterP]

185. he appears to be roughly 150 percent the size of the other two behind him

[0rganism]

239. Will his views earn him additional support in Indiana?

Judge Roy Moore seems to have proven that shoving a religious monument up the arse of the state of Alabama is a selling point among the fundy voters considering him for even higher offices. Will notoriously-republican Indiana be much different?

[Lorien]

75. So much for religious freedom!

I've known more Pagans in my life than Hindus or Muslims-I've probably met as many practicing Pagans as I have practicing Jews (I'm agnostic myself). So what's next-calling Hinduism or Buddhism "non-mainstream"? The constitution says nothing about religious conformity! This judge should be stripped of his position.

[progressivejazz]

89. This is a great weapon for our side.

The more the conservatives go over the edge, the fewer people will support them.

Now, if the corporate media will only report it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

103. I've been trying to disseminate it. You are absolutely correct.

This needs maximum exposure!

[IndianaGreen]

90. Believe in Jesus... or DIE!

One more step towards a Xtian Taliban nation.

Wait until they turn on the Methodists for not being Xtian enough!

[CornField]

108. Locally they already have

A local RW talk guy is always going off about how Methodists aren't really Christian. During the campaign, he used it as an attack on Edwards (always failing to mention what religions GW was).

[HockeyMom]

146. Some Fundies even questioned the Pope

Since he was not BORN AGAIN, was he gong to Hell? These people are absolutely unreal and DANGEROUS. Catholic believe you are "born again" when you are baptized, mostly as a baby. You don't have to be born again.

We really need to teach COMPARATIVE religions in our schools. But maybe that wouldn't sit well with them. Might make our children more tolerant of other people and other religions since we now obviously have a FAVORED religion.

[noonwitch]

92. Appellate courts should strike this ruling down

The parents need to call the ACLU stat.

[progressivebydesign]

94. WTF???? How long till they reinstate the Witch Trials? n/t

[LeftCoast]

105. When this happens to a Christian, THEN they can claim discrimination

Those whiney RW Chrisitans have never had a judgement against them like this, and yet they constantly claim to be discriminated against. Like everything else from the right, it turns out to be nothing but lies and propaganda...

[gordianot]

111. Pagans blended into modern Christianity.

see link: http://askelm.com/doctrine/d920201.htm


The images of Jesus that Christians have in their churches, homes, Bibles, Sunday School or Sabbath School books are those which have the outward features of the chief pagan gods of the heathen world, That's right! The "Jesus" of the Christian churches today in their depictions is not the real Jesus of the New Testament. The modern portrait (which we inherited from the Christians of the last part of the fourth century) is nothing more than a characterization of the chief pagan gods, but Christians presently honor such pictures, icons or images as perfectly proper. If the apostles could come back to life and visit our churches or enter our homes, they would be aghast at seeing the chief god of the heathen world being honored or adored with esteem (and even being prayed to) by supposedly devout Christian peoples.

Prof. Everett Ferguson in his excellent work titled "Backgrounds of Early Christianity" shows an example that the statues of Asclepius (the healing god of the heathen) were images "that imitated those of Zeus … and that his portraiture influenced artists in depicting both Sarapis and Christ" (page 174). Does it make little difference if Christians call such pagan deities "Jesus"? Or is doing so a serious infringement of the teachings of the New Testament? This research study discusses this issue.

In the fourth century it become common for many Gentile peoples throughout the Roman Empire (who had long worshiped pagan gods and goddesses) to begin identifying their deities of old with the newly honored "Jesus," "Mary," and the "twelve apostles" (plus other saints of the Old and New Testaments). One particular deity that seemed to blend together the attributes of several gods into a unified portrayal of deity was the Egyptian god "Sarapis." This god had been famous for 600 years in Egypt and now his worship was found all over the Roman Empire. He was equated with the Greek Zeus (the chief god over all other gods) along with Asciepius (the god of healing).

[Pacifist Patriot]

136. Blended or subsumed?

*grin*

[Mojorabbit]

171. Don't forget Mithras

Sun god born from a virgin birth.
http://www.taivaansusi.net/historia/mithraism.html

[MountainLaurel]

177. And the son of Cybele

Whose son was hung on a tree to save his people from destruction.

[gordianot]

193. They just need to leave those Pagans alone!

Judaic traditions borrowed much from Egypt which is revealed in modern Masonic traditions. (I realize the Masons deny a religious connection but are right on with both Egyptian and Judaic symbolism).

Many religious beliefs world wide involve common elements and have stolen ideas. Bullfinch (of Bullfinch Mythology fame) would have got a real laugh at this judge slamming "Pagans". This is the type of discussion you get when you try to establish a State religion.

Lets see Pagan holdovers:
Christmas Tree
Yule log
May Pole
Easter Eggs
Easter Bunny
Halloween
School Fall Festivals
(too numerous to mention)

They just need to convert their Pagan beliefs to your Pagan beliefs.

[Pacifist Patriot]

234. And Attis and Dionysos and Buddha and...

http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/PaganChrists.html

The Savior motif is found worldwide and follows the same basic pattern everywhere. Fascinating really.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

118. What a crock of shit! n/t

[H2O Man]

123. Unreal. Just unreal.

This is what the Native American experience has been for decades in the land of religious freedom. This is the common ground that atheists and theists of good will are going to be sharing: the religious intolerance of the right wing is dangerous to all of us.

[genieroze]

124. That judge is an idiot. Quick lets bump him up to the Supreme Court. eom

[Tsiyu]

125. The Supreme Court has already ruled on parents'

right to teach their kids "out of the mainstream" beliefs. There have been cases with the Amish and many other groups. Why is this judge so out of touch with the Constitution of the United States of America?

[genieroze]

143. This is why he would be perfect for the new Supreme Court.

The Constitution be dammed, use the fundamentalists own twisted take on the Bible instead.

[barb162]

128. Judge Bradford has "head up rear end" syndrome

and needs to study up a teeny bit on the Constitution

[FizzFuzz]

131. better to teach the bible. The bloody, woman-hating, hierarchical bible

FEH!

[Pacifist Patriot]

148. That's right.

We don't give our children near enough shame and guilt these days.

:sarcasm:

[bamacrat]

137. By god those kids better not give a damn about nature.

pun intended.

[gauguin57]

138. Wait, so the judge is saying that because the kid attends Catholic school,

his parents' Wiccan teachings are going to confuse him? What should him attending a parochial school have to do with what religion is practiced in his two parents' homes? The father says he, himself, attended Catholic School as a non-Christian. I know Protestants who send their kids to Catholic School -- should they not be able to teach their brand of Christianity at home because the kid is in a Catholic School.

DAMN! What in the hell is happening in this country?

Wow, God forbid (no pun intended) we expose kids to all different kinds of religions so they can eventually choose for themselves.

[Initech]

141. Really, what is a "mainstream religion"?

Wow, this society is becoming more and more like a theocracy every day. I was just reading that thread on Boca mandating Bible readings.

Could the "mainstream religion" that the judge is referring to be Christianity? Or Evangelicalism?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

151. I hope they flagrantly violate the order

Double-Dog Dare the judge to attempt enforcement.

Make that a Triple Dog Dare...

What a wonderful example they would be setting for their son. Stand up for religious freedom and your rights as an American.

[iamjoy]

154. The Constitution, Amendment One

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, ot prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press...

*PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF*

HELLO! JUDGE -
READ THE FRICKIN' BILL OF RIGHTS YOU

[Pacifist Patriot]

183. Here's how he must look at it.

"Well it says Congress can't make any laws. It doesn't say anything about judicial rulings."

Blech!

[0007]

158. Freedom of religion! As long as it is mainstream?

Please explain.

[BonjourUSA]

160. Your country is always surprising

What paradox ! The Republicans don't want the state to put its nose into the rules of the economy, but it can do it for the private affairs.

[NuttyFluffers]

230. It is, isn't it? I live here and even I cannot understand or keep up. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

164. Call Judge Bradford and tell him what you think

You will a recording of menu options. If you want to speak to a real human, rather than leave a message for Judge Bradford, you have to press 0.

Court: Civil Division 1
Judge: Cale Bradford
Room: W-407
Location: 4th Floor West Wing
Phone: [phone]

The woman that answered the phone at Civil Court 1 (Judge Bradford's court) was quite shocked when I told her they were on the internet.

[MountainLaurel]

178. Thanks for the info IG

OOC,

Was she surprised that the story is on the Internet, or that the contact information was?

[IndianaGreen]

182. I told her that they were on the internet on account of Judge Bradford

and she said: "We are?" I didn't mention DU, I just kept it generic.

[MountainLaurel]

190. Bwaaahaaa!

That poor secretary has no idea what's in store for her.

[LiberalFighter]

241. Woman must be one DFH

[markus]

168. They should file with the state Supreme Court on this one

This shows either such bias or ignorance of the law that this person is clearly not qualified for the bench.

[cap]

174. the military recognizes the Wiccans

they dont advertise it but there are Wiccan chaplains.

[IndianaGreen]

184. And the Xtian fundies have attacked the Wiccans at Fort Hood

There was a campaign in Texas against the army Wiccans, I believe it was the ones at Fort Hood. I googled the following story from the net, notice how the fundies say that US troops have died for Jesus:

RELIGIOUS GROUPS URGING BOYCOTT OF ARMY OVER WICCANS

Web Posted: June 14, 1999

A coalition of religious conservative has called upon Christians to boycott the U.S. Army until the Pentagon bans Wiccans and Satanists from all installations. Paul Weyrich of the Free Congress Association charged that tolerating meetings of witches at military bases was "a direct assault on the Christian faith that generations of American soldiers have fought and died for."

"Until the Army withdraws all official support and approval from witchcraft, no Christian should enlist or reenlist in the Army, and Christian parents should not allow their children to join the Army," Weyrich said. "An Army that sponsors satanic rituals is unworthy of representing the United States of America."

Weyrich and others were reacting to news reports that witches, or Wiccan groups, have been permitted to hold religious rituals at Fort Hood, Texas, the nation's largest military base. A story last month in the Austin American-Statesman included photographs of members of a local congregation jumping through fire and calling upon the "Great goddess Freya." There are reportedly more than 40 male and female witches of the Ft. Hood Open Circle on active duty at the installation; three years ago, base officials recognized Wicca as a legitimate religion, and provided space for the pagan rituals.

Col. Jerome Haberek, head chaplain at Ft. Hood and a Roman Catholic priest, told the paper that the base "worked hard to understand and accommodate the Wiccans."

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/witch2.htm

[Pacifist Patriot]

180. Interesting snippet about Judge Bradford

I was trying to locate an on-line bio about Bradford to find out what religion is is. No luck. Stumbled upon some things about his politics though. I had just assumed he was Republican. Now I know for certain.

The Indiana Supreme Court unanimously voted to reverse the Marion County Superior Court's en banc decision to adopt a City-County Council redistricting plan drawn up by council Republicans. Every Republican Superior Court judge - including Cale Bradford whose brother is a GOP councilor - voted for the plan. Every Democrat judge voted against it.

[LiberalFighter]

242. He is a Republican

He has missed a few elections but in every primary election that he has voted he has voted Repug

[KamaAina]

181. Why not just burn 'em at the stake? (sarcasm)

Judges are such wusses these days. :sarcasm:

[orleans]

188. Muslims--you're next!

Jews! Get in line!

we'll straighten all of you out one by one!
:sarcasm:

is this what they mean by "activist" judges?

[IndianaGreen]

Christians need us Jews to get their prophecies fulfilled

They will murder us afterwards when we refuse to renounce Judaism in favor of their Jesus.

[orleans]

191. ahhh--good point

okay--"easy, breezy" hindus after muslims and before jews.

better?
:sarcasm:

[brooklynite]

195. Well, not quite

I think they assume the guy upstairs takes care of that.

[IndianaGreen]

197. Not quite! If fundies really believed in G-d's prophesies, they wouldn't

be working so hard at achieving total power in the US. They should just let the anti-Christ take over, as they interpret their prophesies. Unless they are the followers of the anti-Christ they claim to fear so much!

[poverlay]

189. OUTRAGE!!!

Judge Bradford should be in jail for this. Looks like our constitution is meaningless.

[demo dutch]

192. That's an under statement!!!!!!!!!!

[Beaverhausen]

194. I guess its back in the broom closet for us pagans

this is just unreal. :banghead:

[gordianot]

196. I would be willing to become a Pagan if I could render a curse.

OOPs when I think about it I am probably already a Pagan.

[Walt Starr]

198. Anybody else smell smoke?

It's getting awfully hot in here. In fact, I'm probably going to end up being burnt alive!

:grr:

[deacon2]

199. With liberty and justice for some... n/t

[loudsue]

200. Parents should NOT teach REPUBLICAN beliefs!

"Wiccan" isn't the problem, it's "republican" that's the problem!

:kick::kick::kick:

[Beaverhausen]

213. Right- what about parents teaching hatred and intolerance?

arrrgghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

[Neoma]

203. Thats just outrageous.

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[Fire Walk With Me]

204. "...a balance in nature and reverence for the earth"

What kind of sicko perversion is THIS!?

Them injuns thought the same thing, and we kilt 'em. Kilt 'em dayd.

/Sarcasm.

[Ouabache]

206. Judge Cale Bradford is a freedom and liberty loving REPUBLICAN

naturally,...not that you would be surprised to find that out.

[undergroundpanther]

207. I am SICK of these fucking Christianazisociopaths

and thier religious domination games.

They harm everyone not like THEM.

For me the metaphysical gloves are OFF..

[Big Kahuna]

209. Update: A Message From The Family

From witchvox.com

A Message From The Family May 26th. at 5:08:36 pm EDT

by tigerlady6409 (Indianapolis - Indiana) - Email

Tom is currently doing interviews but would like me to pass this message along. (This has been picked up by the Associated Press as well as local news stations.)

Please stop sending any letters or making any calls to any of the groups associated with this case. There will be a time for it, but this is NOT it. Our lawyer, Ken Falk, Director of
the Indiana Civil Liberties Union, fears this will hurt the case more at this point than help it. The Indiana Court of Appeals is
reviewing the case. We do not wish to irritate them or any of the other organizations at such a critical time.

We greatly appreciate the support of the Pagan community. We never doubted it would happen but are taken aback at how quickly the Pagan community all over the US has rallied behind this situation. We've
been silently fighting this for over a year and are thankful for the energy boost.

If you have any questions, please feel free to e-mail me ([e-mail]) or Tom ([e-mail]) . However, before doing ANYTHING with the
general public, please check with us first.

Stephanie

[maddezmom]

218. EVERYONE should take the time to READ the above post n/t

[Rex]

210. Obviously the judge is an idiot.

nt

[killbotfactory]

211. That's the most blatantly anti-constitutional ruling i've seen in a while

What a fucking asshole.

[TimeChaser]

212. More reason for me to hide my pentacle under my shirt

I came home from school today and read this article on Witchvox. My first reaction was disbelief, then rage, and now it's settled down into a state of fear and general terror.

Perhaps we need an obituary for the Bill of Rights to go along with the one for TNM?

[Bravo411]

219. A clear violation of the Constitution

This one is sure to make it to the Supreme Court.

[rayofreason]

232. Supreme Court?

Maybe, but I suspect that it will not make it that far. This ruling sounds so out of bounds that it can't stand for long. Given that the ruling will be overuled, maybe the Judge should gone the whole hog and also banned the kid from being exposed to vegetarianism!

[insane_cratic_gal]

233. Why NOT!

Hello, we at one point, were all Pagan's! wtf

Pagan means nothing more then peasant religion that was centered on earth cycles. Crops, harvests, seasons. It's reverence for the earth and it's bounty of fruit,labor, and love.
There is nothing harmful in wicca or neo-pagan, ect.
What about being a Buddha? is that out of touch with main stream religion? What about taoist? What happened to the TOLERANCE of Christianity? Did that fly out the fucking window when Bush got elected?

They (courts, and this government) don't get to decide what I believe! They don't to choose what is outside of main stream religion! They don't get to decide that Christianity is all encompassing and everything else is outside of the Norm!

This is American folks, your suppose to be able to have freedom of religion. I'm spiritual, frankly I'm starting to believe that organized religion in any form is bad news.

[Nostradamus]

236. Burn the witch !!

The middle ages are still with us..

[SlipperySlope]

237. This cannot stand

Even under the realm of the day, this will not stand review by any higher court.

[Cha]

238. What kind of bug

is up this judge's ass?

This sounds like a supreme court case.

[Placebo]

250. Damn witches.

:dunce: