Schroeder speech puts `power' back into German politics

[dArKeR]

Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder said on Friday that Germany had been right to oppose the US-led war in Iraq, driving home his defiant message by repeatedly using the German word for "power," which leaders have long eschewed because of its associations with the Nazi era.

Schroeder, in a speech marking the 13th anniversary of German reunification, described the country as a "civil power" and an "economic power," responsible for fueling the growth of the EU.

The word "macht", or "power," has been laden with meaning since Hitler used it to describe a Germany bent on dominating its neighbors. But Schroeder talked about Germany's "civil power," which he said manifested itself in a peaceful foreign policy that could be spread throughout the world.

"German peace polices are policies for Europe and beyond," he said in a nationally televised speech. "I think we can be proud of the way Germany has accepted growing international responsibilities in recent years."

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2003/10/05/2003070469

Do you think Bush could screw up the world any more in the year he's got left?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

1. I would say it's "might", not "power"

Unless German language uses only one word for the two concepts. Anyone here knows German?

[Character Assassin]

3. Yes, and it completely depends on what he actually said.

He could have used 'Kraft', 'Kapazitaet', 'Faehigkeit' or a number of other different words to get a particular point across.

Macht can mean power, might and/or (roughly) potency, depending on the context.

[Dirk39]

4. We only have the word "macht"....

but it's not such a critical word with relations to the Nazi-Era. The nazis used other terms like "Großmacht" (superpower) and similar words.
Nonetheless, I'm a bit afraid of what's happening in Germany. Some leftwingers suppose that Schröder and Chiraq, but esp. Schröder and Fischer wanted to seduce the USA into that war, knowing that it would become a desaster for them to reduce their power and make place for Europe led by Germany.
It would be the same strategy the USA used to destroy the Sovietunion by drawing them into Afghanistan (the communist party of the Sovietunion then decided with a majority of one vote to invade). They wanted to create a Vietnam for the Sovietunion and were succesfull.
The European Leaders know, that the USA might have the best weapons, but their army is much weaker than it seems. The USA is only good in "hit and run" (see Afghanistan). Bombing them down and leave the dirty work and the costs to others. Now, Europe has somehow reversed it. Germany did a lot of image work in the Iraq and elsewhere before to improve their image. Now, the Americans are seen as killers, invaders and incompent in everything they do, while the germans are the superior engineers and peacebringers.
I don't know, what to think of this thesis, but somehow it makes sense. Maybe even the liberals and leftwingers in the USA should be more critical about Europe.
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Character Assassin]

5. That applies to any army, actually.

The European Leaders know, that the USA might have the best weapons, but their army is much weaker than it seems.

The occupation of a nation is not the ideal task for an army, esp. when that nation is in the neighborhood Iraq is in and it has, to say the least, porous borders.

The USA is only good in "hit and run" (see Afghanistan).

Debatable.

Bombing them down and leave the dirty work and the costs to others.

Um, like whom?

Now, Europe has somehow reversed it. Germany did a lot of image work in the Iraq and elsewhere before to improve their image. Now, the Americans are seen as killers, invaders and incompent in everything they do, while the germans are the superior engineers and peacebringers.

Could be. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Schoenen Abend noch, Dirk.

[Dirk39]

6. Kosovo, Afghanistan...

are examples of "hit and run".
But you're right about that in all the western societies, the citizens are not willing to accept victims anymore (it's one of the reasons that make terrorists, who are willing to risk their lives, so strong).
But I'm really afraid of Germany becoming too strong. Our corporations might be among the most aggressive in the world today. Daimler for example could even shock french and american corporations in their recklessness.

Schönen Abend ebenfalls,
Dirk

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Capt_Nemo]

11. Sorry Dirk but it wasn´t us (EU) who started the confrontation

We are faced with an effort of containment of european power
by the US elites that started even before bush was "elected".

In PNAC's infamous "Rebuilding America's Defenses" (2000) it is implied
that if the EU economical power becomes a threat to US supremacy
they will resort to any means necessary to destabilize Europe's
economy and therefore our way of life.

I don't want to have my country transformed in a microcosm of the
US with rampant religious fundamentalism, bigotry, criminality and a
destroyed middle class, which will be the consequence of appeasing the
US,and becoming its vassals.

The US is not our Ally anymore, the US has cast itself as a clear and
present threat for us.

If what you say is true:

"Schröder and Chiraq, but esp. Schröder and Fischer wanted to seduce the USA into that war, knowing that it would become a desaster for them to reduce their power and make place for Europe led by Germany.
It would be the same strategy the USA used to destroy the Sovietunion by drawing them into Afghanistan (the communist party of the Sovietunion then decided with a majority of one vote to invade). They wanted to create a Vietnam for the Sovietunion and were succesfull."

Than they are doing exactly what needs to be done!!!!

What I am afraid of is that they have NOT yet realized that it is
what needs to be done.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

15. KICK!

Great post! Say it like it is -- the USA establishment wishes the EU ill! No point in pretending they're still allies agains a common enemy -- the comon enemy is gone, dead, kaput.

The frightening thing is, many Americans see European-style social democracy as an exceedingly evil thing comparable to Nazism and Soviet Communism. Yikes!

[Turley]

17. I'll bet you

$1Bn in daily trade and over half a Trillion Dollars in two-way Corporate investment that you're wrong. That sort of opinion borders on paranoia if you ask me.

Also, thank you for the kind words about my country. You just can't imagine how funny it is for me to hear Europeans accusing us of bigotry. Sorry, but I've lived in Europe long enough to know that's the pot calling the kettle black.

[inthecorneroverhere]

19. I'm not worried re: Europe

I am not worried about what is happening in Germany. I think it's more of an attempt to stimulate the economy out of unemployment and doldrums, partly to assure the future health of the German and other European pension and social insurance systems, with the aging population.

It's pretty much purely economic.

I don't see anything wrong with using the word 'macht' in the sober discourse that is characteristic of contemporary European politicians, especially when it's used to describe economics.

I would love to see Europe reduce the unemployment rates.

Changing channels, you might be interested in this article from the Toronto Globe & Mail: http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031006.urecall1006/BNStory/Entertainment/

Americans would be freaking out if this kind of thing were happening in Europe:

"The two-tonne ball of pig iron plummets from the top of the crane, striking the late-model Oldsmobile with a deafening crunch and a cloud of debris. The crowd goes mad.

.. "Hasta la vista, car tax," Arnold Schwarzenegger shouts over an adoring crowd that resembles a rock concert more than a Republican Party rally. "Hasta la vista, car tax!"

Teenaged girls are perched on their boyfriends' shoulders. Intense young men in T-shirts reading, "My Governor Can Beat Up Your Governor" clutch copies of a body-building encyclopedia.

Several thousand people dance and wave their arms as a deafening sound system begins blasting the 1980s Twisted Sister hit We're Not Gonna Take It.

On the other side of the parking lot, a group of women has quietly emerged on the edge of the crowd. They hold up placards reading, "No groper for governor," and are soon bullied by a throng of large, male Arnie supporters, the scene recorded by dozens of TV cameras. One man yells repeatedly, "Are you some kind of lesbians?" A woman in an Arnold T-shirt yells, "Everyone has a history!"'

[Character Assassin]

2. It's unclear from the article if he actually did use the word 'Macht'.

And in what contect he used 'civil'.

Any transcripts available on the web?

[Kellanved]

12. yes

http://www.bundeskanzler.de/Reden-.7715.535831/Rede-von-Bundeskanzler-Gerhard-Schroeder-anlaess...htm He uses "...macht."

And actually I found it a great speech by an outstanding chancellor. The press is against Schröder (left media ... does this actually exist anywhere?); however there is simply no alternative to the current policy.

It is quite funny: some people say Schröder is lacking the class of Blair (having met Schröder I can say: he has the class) on one hand, but presume absurd double-think masterstrokes bordering on conspiracies on the other.

[Turley]

13. You gotta be kidding

Approval rating of 32%....worst ever for a post-war Chancellor. In my town the local SPD party actually issued an apology for the Federal Gov't. SPD got absolutely killed in Bavarian elections.

I guess you're right about one thing....Schroeder is "Outstanding"....just not in the positive sense.

[Dirk39]

20. The press is against Schröder...

left media ... does this actually exist anywhere?)
Sorry, Kallanved, but are you kidding? Do you really wonder, that left media doesn't exist anymore in Germany? Although it exists.

One of the most prominent words of Schröder is "I don't read books. Bild, Bams and Glotze are the only things that count!"
It's as if the democrats in the USA would have a candidate, who's saying "I don't read books, I lift weights. And there are only three things that count for me: Fox News, Fox News and Fox News."

Schröder has destroyed the "established" left in Germany for decades. He's a disgusting whore, that has made his whole career depending, on what the Bild-Zeitung (germans most disgusting right-wing daily newspaper that makes Fox-News look like a balanced and fair News-channel in comparison) is writing. They had 2 political figures for a test-drive: Hamburgs fashists and rassists, led by Schill. And Schröder. And they already did it in Hamurg: showing that their people will only be in the place as long as they are dancing to their drum. It was meant as a warning in Schröders direction.
There is no conspiracy-theory involved at all. Schröder is just the cheaper whore compared to Kohl, who still had some kind of old-fashioned "conscience".
Schröder is the first post-war chancelor with the picture of a nazi-soldier on his desk: his father.
The civil society in the USA is more more alive than in Germany and the USA is much much much much more than PNAC. An undemocratic behaviour like Schröders towards other people, his obsession with leadership would be unacceptable in the democratic party of the USA, for example. He just represents the worst of Germany and the german industry dreams of reaching the power, the Nazis failed to give them, with more peacefull tools.
Angry in Germany, fuck Europe,
Dirk

[lindashaw]

7. In all my years (and I remember Vietnam) I have never known...

of the entire world so upset at one time. George Bush, if left to his own deluded devises, which in my opinion, include some twisted view of apocolyptic salvation, has the entire world at each other's throats.

The confusion and anger and truly devastating side-effects, (people dying around the world) can be traced back to America. How can we fix this?

[Dirk39]

8. But don't forget that other nations have interests, too...

and, for example, in Germany, corporations have as much influence on our government, if not more, as in the USA. And if it comes to serving corporations, Schröder and Fischer might be the worst thing happening to Germany after WW2. They are like Blair, but without any style or intelligence.
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Matilda]

10. I think you've made some excellent points,

food for thought. After all the countries of Old Europe, so despised by Bush, have been playing the diplomatic game for centuries. Bush is a babe in the wood by comparison. I'm also
thinking that by not offering troop support or money to Bush,
France and Germany know that his chances of re-election will
be decreased as the US becomes increasing bogged down in Iraq.

"Hallo" aus Australien.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. Fine by me

I dream of a world with at least three countries/blocs of capitalist democracies with roughly the same power/influence, competing fiercely but in a civilized fashion. One country bringing the entire world into submission can't be good, no matter how "nice" and "morally superior" it is.

[goforit]

18. Very well said Schroeder!!!!...........There is a peaceful and profitable

solution to world problems!!!

Hats off to ya!!!

:toast: