Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind -NYT

[Rose Siding]

When F. Scott Fitzgerald pronounced that the very rich "are different from you and me," Ernest Hemingway's famously dismissive response was: "Yes, they have more money." Today he might well add: much, much, much more money.

The people at the top of America's money pyramid have so prospered in recent years that they have pulled far ahead of the rest of the population, an analysis of tax records and other government data by The New York Times shows. They have even left behind people making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
....
President Bush said during the third election debate last October that most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. In fact, most - 53 percent - will go to people with incomes in the top 10 percent over the first 15 years of the cuts, which began in 2001 and would have to be reauthorized in 2010. And more than 15 percent will go just to the top 0.1 percent, those 145,000 taxpayers.

The Times set out to create a financial portrait of the very richest Americans, how their incomes have changed over the decades and how the tax cuts will affect them. It is no secret that the gap between the rich and the poor has grown, but the extent to which the richest are leaving everyone else behind is not widely known.

......MORE........

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/national/class/HYPER-FINAL.html

[SmokingJacket]

1. Ah, screw it. Let's eat them. nt

[zalinda]

2. I'll drink to that ! n/t

[htuttle]

11. ...with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

:evilgrin:

[Stinky The Clown]

17. More like meat tenderizer and some cheap green beans

[ooglymoogly]

34. you beat me to it. eom

[tavalon]

16. There are times when I am so grateful

That I instituted a no drinking liquids while reading DU policy.

That was hilarious. :rofl:

[maxrandb]

37. Unfortunately, the Evangelical, (modern Pharisees) won't allow that

Like Napoleon said: "Religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich".

It's a perfect example of the Repukes skewed syntax. When they say "It's your money", what they really mean by "your money" is

a. A few hundred bucks to the middle class, eaten up by increased fuel prices, or property taxes.

and...

b. $275,000 to Dick Cheney.

See it is "your money". Maybe Dick will let a few crumbs fall from his table for the rest of us.

Praise "Supply Side Jesus".

[WillyT]

50. Should We Sharpen Up The Guillotines ???

:evilgrin:

[indepat]

3. Many trillions of $ of Federal debt will repose in the wealth of 145,000

taxpayers, thanks to unwise and unjust tax cuts designed by this Administration to further enrich the wealth of a relatively few while abandoning the safety net and letting the infrastructure rot. Four more years, four more years.

[Jane Eyre]

4. In our oldest wealthiest neighborhood

It has always been that Myers Park, located just a few miles from the city, was recognized as where the city's elite lived. The neighborhood has been characterized by oak-canopied streets with gracious and stately homes. One would think that the large beautiful old homes there would be enough to satisfy anyone, but now there are gaudy new mega-mansions being built among the traditional modest red brick mansions.

Others are moving out to suburban gated communities where mere middle-class mortals cannot view their palatial estates behind the fences and the guardhouse. If you never have to work a day in your life, why should convenience to the city be an issue?

[hector459]

14. These are the people for whom the Repugs want to eliminate estate taxes

eom

[Pryderi]

5. responsiblewealth.org

"Who We Are
We are leaders in business, community, government, philanthropy, academia and finance. We are among the wealthiest 5% of Americans, the primary beneficiaries of the robust growth of the American economy. We are united by our common concern that despite a booming economy, many are not sharing in the prosperity.

Founded in 1997, Responsible Wealth is affiliated with United for a Fair Economy (UFE), a national non-profit devoted to putting a spotlight on the dangers of excessive inequality of income and wealth in the United States.

Our work is focused on four areas:

* We advocate fair taxes.
* We support a living wage for all.
* We call for greater corporate accountability.
* We promote broadened asset ownership for all Americans.
"



Quote :
"Proposals to shift more of the tax burden onto the affluent and the very wealthy stem in part from a desire to empower government to address more social needs.

"We owe a debt to society," said Scott Klinger, co-director of Responsible Wealth, a Boston-based group comprised of people who are among the wealthiest 5 percent of Americans. "We must help others gain the opportunities we have had.""


http://www.responsiblewealth.org/

[bemildred]

6. Wise, if it is not too late. nt

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

20. Not sure if it will keep them out of the dragnet.

I hope someone is taking notes.

[CBHagman]

15. Thanks for the link!

The sad thing is that oftentimes people with average to low wages/salaries have no real sense of the inequity in society and support regressive tax policies. I can think of a couple of co-workers who buy into the fairy tale that a flat tax is a good idea, that wealthy people are wealthy merely because they worked harder than the rest of us :eyes:, etc.

And they buy the Frank Luntz-tested crap about the "death tax" and all that. We've got to wake people up to what's really happening.

[Pryderi]

19. "Taxes are the price we pay for civilization."--Oliver Wendell Holmes

[cap]

36. what exactly do you mean by fair taxes?

would you repeal the Bush tax breaks?

[DireStrike]

7. Sure, NOW the NYT calls him on his lies during the debates

Thanks for helping him get elected, "liberal media"!

[progressivebydesign]

55. What is with their Monday morning quarterbacking???

Sux that the media is NOW doing their job.. don't it?

[fasttense]

8. From our pockets, to the bushites, then on to the richest!!!

The trickle up economy. If you had millions and billions you too could be even richer now.

[expatriot]

9. b-but Bush drives a pickup and chops wood! a-and he talks like me!

in simple sentences with simple words!

[Ilsa]

33. Bush* might be easier to understand if he spoke in

genuinely simple sentences instead of the mangled syntax he uses. Everyone I've talked to that heard him earlier this week thinks he was either on drugs or has had a stroke or some sort of brain disorder.

[lovuian]

10. This is a sign the Depression is here and going to get worse!!!

Its been proven the greedy who hold 90% of a country's wealth will put the country in a Depression!!!

[namvet73]

40. See the graph "Not Since the 20's Roared" in the article

I know it's not this simple, but ominous.

The graph shows that we are in the pre-depression pattern of the 20s.

(Use the link in the posting, then click on the graph link, "Not Since the 20's Roared".)

Now if Dumbya can just completely undo the "New Deal" we'll be there for sure.

[fishnfla]

12. So thats what he meant by "mission accomplished"

not passing camels thru a needle's eye now are we?

[Gormy Cuss]

13. The rich are different

Another quote from the article:

"Under the Bush tax cuts, the 400 taxpayers with the highest incomes - a minimum of $87 million in 2000,...- now pay income, Medicare and Social Security taxes amounting to virtually the same percentage of their incomes as people making $50,000 to $75,000."

Eat the rich indeed.

[Vickers]

18. The rich are the new middle class...

:eyes:

[tinfoilinfor2005]

21. In the morning, in the evening

Ain't we got fun?
Got no money, oh but honey
ain't we got fun?

There's nothing surer,
the rich get richer and the poor get poorer...

in the mean time, in between time

Ain't we got fun??????

:)

[ckramer]

22. Hey, but everybody is going to die at about 73...

that has no exception no matter how fat or how thin your wallet is...I wouldn't worry about too much on these people.

[suziedemocrat]

24. Exactly. Money only goes so far.

After a while money provides diminishing returns. I feel excessive greed is a pathological condition. I'd say these people aren't happier than the middle class, but I think they might be. Today the middle class is stretched so thin, time and money wise. And very few people have job security anymore. However, I'm not sure the super rich are any happier now that their taxes are lower. And - if they continue to become richer and richer, while the country gets poorer and poorer, eventually they will be affected. Crime will go up, so even the rich will be less safe and they will have to put more effort into protecting themselves and their assets. Slowly cities will decline, so the view out the window while they drive around town will be ugly, and that WILL affect them. Even the super rich can only isolate themselves from society so much.

[girl gone mad]

27. You're right that greed is a pathos.

Too bad our society doesn't see it that way.

You're also right that wealthy people are not necessarily happier than the rest of us. I had a friend who worked for one of the wealthiest people in America. These people lived an unbelievable lifestyle. Each of the children had several nannies, drivers, tutors, etc. on call 24/7. They jetted between their palatial home in the States and their palatial island home on several hundred acres of some of the most prime RE in the world, both homes loaded with every gadget and amenity you could imagine. Yet, these people spent most waking moments angry about one thing or another, yelling at staff or arguing with each other. My friend and I agreed that we would not want to trade places with them.

Whatyou describe in your last few sentences is exactly what's happening in Mexico. Wealthy Mexicans are illegally immigrating to the US. They love not having to pay taxes in Mexico, but they hate the crime, corruption and kidnappings that seem to plague their nation. Rich Mexicans were not willing to invest in an infrastructure for their country, and they are paying the price.

[Blue_Tires]

23. that's some pretty one-sided class warfare......

I don't even want to think about how many from that list are tax cheats, shelterint their $$$$ in the caymans

[Rose Siding]

25. Very true. The Times says their numbers are based on tax returns

-and even Treasury told them that the very wealthy had legal and illegal sheters.

[Jamison]

26. It's OK with me if they're helping other people.

My dad personally knows a guy who owns one of the largest construction contracting firms in the nation. He probably makes $100 million a year easily. He's self-made and seems like a fairly nice guy. I know that he donates a shit-ton of money to his college alma-mater for scholarship funds for needy kids. He also donates a lot for breast cancer research because his wife was diagnosed with it about 6 years ago. He also donates a lot to the humane society because he's a big dog lover. He says that there's no way that he could ever spend as much money as he has on himself or family, so he gives away a lot.

It's just too bad that there's not more mega-rich people like this who are that generous.

[cornermouse]

29. What's wrong with using all that excessive money to reinvest in some

more businesses that hire people here in the U.S.? Giving to the needy is nice, but if they had jobs they might not be needy.

[cap]

35. dont fool yourself, this is pocket change...

if you want to see real donation, change the tax code. How about a 90% level on the rich like it was after World War II. There wouldnt be cuts in Medicaid. Rural poor people are dying.

I'll bet he'd howl like a stuck pig if the 90% rate was even discussed.

[Rex]

28. Not everyone can rule the world.

nt

[Champion Jack]

30. What was that chimp quote from F 9-11

That ended with "...But I call you my base"
????

[catzies]

42. "Some call you the elite. I call you my base."

"This is an impressive crowd, the haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite. I call you my base." George W Bush, Al Smith Memorial Dinner in New York, 19th October 2000

http://www.endevil.com/Bushquotes.html

[Champion Jack]

43. Thanks!

nt

[PeaceProgProsp]

31. Yet the top tax rate starts at about $300,000 a year for two people.

It sounds like we need some new tax brackets.

If two people who make 150,000 per year are in circumstances so different from people making much much much more money, then they shouldn't be paying the same taxes on their next dollar in income.

[Jackpine Radical]

32. What kind of wine goes best

with roasted plutocrat?

[DeepModem Mom]

38. This is lead story in print edition, taking up most of space above fold...

n/t

[progressivebydesign]

56. Unfortunately the yahoo dipshits that voted for Bush don't read..

.. newspapers, and they sure don't read the NYT. Sad..

[cascadiance]

39. I think now the 90% tax bracket that JFK got rid of sounds like good mojo!

Good medicine, good medicine! It seemed high at the time, even for a Democrat to look at, but now sounds like a good corrective measure, at least for those way up on the salary level! Need to start it in 2008, or earlier if we can take over congress and impeach the bastards and get Pelosi in power!

[cap]

41. Yes... I dont want to see people on Medicaid dying

because of the cuts in services.

[Bozita]

44. David Cay Johnston (author of article) wrote a helluva book!

Title:
Perfectly Legal: The Covert Campaign to Rig Our Tax System to Benefit the Super Rich - and Cheat Everybody Else

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1591840198/ref%3Dnosim/goodbooksbadbook/002-3079149-2883247

Check out the reviews.

[Strawman]

73. Yes. Everyone should read that book

[ValentinoM]

45. I must be sick.. but I just don't hate the rich because they have money..

I just wish I could find a way to get my own.. :)

[Dora]

47. That's the problem with the rich.

All the money is in the pockets of 150,000 wealthiest americans. These people are incapable of spending the amount of money that needs to be spent in order to restore our economy to a healthy balance. By virtue of having as much money as they do, they have taken it out of the money stream and it's stagnating. Not a healthy condition.

I want to get my own money too, and so does he, and she does too, and we need to teach our children how to get their own money... but it all does us no good if the all the money that is to be had is rotting in the vaults of the super-wealthy.

This is what revolutions are made out of.

[ValentinoM]

48. *This is what revolutions are made out of.* ????????

Geeeze.. Please don't get this wrong, I mean no offense, I guess I am just not cut out for this class envy shit.. I have alway made as much money as I have been willing to work hard enough for, thats just me..

[Bozita]

49. It ain't class envy. Here's hoping you find your way to that 1st billion

Now, let's hear how you're going to pursue it.

[ValentinoM]

52. Are you talking about my first billion, thats a piece of cake,..

Perhaps you'd like to get a copy of the book where I explain my secret.. :)

[Eloriel]

53. So, if you had millions or billions, you would

be the kind of wealthy that we call plutocrats, eh? You'd be a Repubican, basically -- working hard to put taxes on the middle class and poor, cut government services, cut your own taxes down to nothing, etc., etc., etc.????

IOW: not just a selfish bastard, but a sociopathic parasite on society.

No?

What you call "class envy" is really only a recognition of the unfairness of the way things are going right now. The opportunities for people to move up in society are disappearing. We are becoming a LESS mobile society, in other words. The gap between rich and poor and the ultra-rich (as this article points out) and everyone else is increasing at warp speed. THE MIDDLE CLASS IS DISAPPEARING. That means less upward mobility for EVERYONE (except the super rich).

We don't "evny" the richest among us, we just don't want to see the whole economic system turned on its head so that the American Dream becomes a cruel joke.

For the record: I don't envy ANYone their money. But I do want them to pay their fair share, which MUST be through progressive taxation.

[Cicero]

58. How many of those milllionaires inherited all their wealth?

Not near as many as you seem to think, I warrant. This country is still the Land of Opportunity (tm), with the greatest amount of class mobility anywhere in the world.

In fact, hasn't the tax system become even more "progressive" the past 4-5 years?

I don't think people should be penalized for being successful, which is what "progressive" taxation is, to my mind.

Later,

[Desertrose]

63. Neither should those who are "less successful" be penalized

for not making excessive amounts of money.

I don't think people should be penalized for being successful, which is what "progressive" taxation is, to my mind.

I think this is the worst copout bullshit excuse for not paying your fairshare and then some if you are able to do it. Why is "worth" always equated with "wealth" and why are those who may not geared towards making mega bucks made to feel less valued and valuable in this society??

we are mightily f'd up I'd say. ...and we as a country & society may be too far gone to do anything about it.

[fujiyama]

66. Are you actually defending

the Bush tax cuts?

[Dora]

68. Does a person have to inherit ALL their wealth?

:thumbsdown: "The greatest amount of class mobility anywhere in the world."

Yeah, Cicero, exactly right you are -- except the mobility is all about moving down the economic ladder.

[Dora]

69. You mean no offense.

"I have always made as much money as I have been willing to work hard enough for, that's just me."

So, then you're implying that I'm not? Or that my husband isn't? Or what about our vets who are now returning from Iraq and Afghanistans who cannot find work and are finding themselves homeless - perhaps they're not making as much money as they need because they're not willing to work hard enough for it?

[Cicero]

57. Excuse me?

"they have taken it out of the money stream and it's stagnating. Not a healthy condition."

Well, then, where have they put it? You make it sound like they're stuffing their mattresses with it and using it as fire lighters.

They don't have gobs and gobs of cash just lying around. It is invested and being used in some way, after all, since they keep getting more of it, and it don't grow on trees you know.

Later,

[Solon]

61. Look to the Cayman Islands, Switzerland, and Bermuda...

to find much of their wealth, as to your other comments, we have an increasingly regressive tax system, the opposite of a progressive tax system. We have Bush trying to give a tax break that doesn't even apply to 99% of us to the remaining top 1%, the so called "Death Tax". We have CEO's making 3 to 10 times more than 30 years ago. Did they all of the sudden become that much more valuable? At the same time, the current trend in average and low wages is that they have been decreasing, steadily, for the past 30 years, not even keeping up with inflation for crying out loud. Also, of those who are rich now, I don't have stats, but I would gather that most, at least 60%, inherited the money and businesses as well. Anheuser Busch is still a family business, Rockefeller and others as well. How is the Morgan family doing nowadays? How about the Duponts?

[Dora]

71. Well, in a manner of speaking...

They might as well be stuffing their mattresses with cash. They might as well be searing their steak over coals created by rolls of cash. They might as well be wiping their delicate bungholes with C-notes and flushing them down the goddam toilet.

"It is being invested and used in some way..."

Being socked into an interest-earning account where the dividends go to the account holder is of no benefit to any person who goes to bed hungry.

"Since they keep getting more of it..."

And where is the more of it they're getting coming from? Do you think they're just giving money to each other? That the wealthy are buying and selling goods and services amongst themselves? They are dependent on the rest of us who aren't wealthy in order for them to maintain their wealth.

Here's an example: After a long career as a public school teacher (salary paid by tax dollars, mind you) my FIL has a successful home-based business. Sales last year topped $1.5M. This year is only half-over and they've already match last year's sales. Who's buying his product? Rural fire departments, spending FEMA anti-terra funds. Last time I checked, those monies come from MY tax dollars, and the tax dollars of any man, woman, and child who actually has to work to eat. So, it's bully for my FIL that he's got such a killer-diller business going, but every penny he makes was taken out of a working-person's paycheck.

Me, I wish my tax dollars were used to support free lunch programs instead.

[Tellurian]

46. Isn't the point of the rich getting richer...

to eventually eliminate the lower, middle and upper class?

Roll back the clock 100 yrs and voila-- FEUDALISM!!!

I haven't read every post in this thread, perhaps someone else has considered 'feudalism' as a natural progression of things to come.

[partimevegan]

51. Check Out this Website: Stories in America

http://www.storiesinamerica.org/
http://storiesinamerica.blogspot.com/

Journalist Rose Aguilar leaves the liberal bubble of San Francisco to bring you personal stories from people living in states that overwhelmingly voted for George W. Bush for President.


Memorial Day Matters

On Memorial Day, we spent a good chunk of our driving time listening to conservative talk show hosts on AM radio. They did a great job of criticizing those who oppose the war by calling them unpatriotic. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they never criticized the Bush administration for cutting funding for vets' health care, prescription drugs and nursing homes. Why didn't they mention the bill that would have qualified the National Guard and Reserve for TRICARE, the main military health plan? It was defeated by 218-211. What about the bill that would have increased spending by $53 million for troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, including $8 million for treating combat trauma, $9 million for prosthetic research and $6 million for telemedicine to remotely serve National Guard and Reserve veterans. It was defeated by 214-213. If you look at voting records, you'll find that almost every Democratic House member voted in favor of those bills, while every Republican voted against them. I didn't hear any mention of that on the radio; instead Rush Limbaugh asked his listeners to call in with gift ideas for the one-year anniversary of Abu Ghraib.

That evening, we went to a Memorial Day celebration at the White Rock Lake Park in Dallas. In addition to an endless array of "Support Our Troops" ribbons on cars, flags could be found on everything from earrings and hats to lounge chairs and blankets.

Before going in, I got into a conversation with a female police officer on duty.

How do you feel about the war?

I'm not really sure what we're fighting for. I know what I've been told, but those theories have been proven wrong time and time again.

How do you feel about providing healthcare benefits to the troops? A few bills that would have increased coverage were killed in the House.

Why are they killing bills to support the troops? As far as I'm concerned, if you serve this country, you should receive healthcare for life.

What's your opinion of Bush?

I'm too much of a lady to answer that question.


Here are excerpts from a few interviews with people who attended the event.

Kay McGuire, 79, member of the Republican Women's Association of Dallas, TX

What does Memorial Day mean to you?

We think about all our friends and relatives that we have lost, not just in the war that's going on now, but in other wars. It's a sad day, it really is. They said we were getting away from it, but unfortunately since war came, now we're back to square one again.

What about freedom? What does that mean to you?

For me personally, it means that I can go to any church that I please and nobody questions me. We can vote. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't vote, but we have that choice. We can work where we want, educate ourselves if we want, and that's a good feeling. Anybody in the United States can make something of their lives. All they need is the right attitude.

Do you think that's what Bush means when he uses the word freedom?

Yes. He portrays that to the people and I think that's why he's popular even though they say he's losing his popularity. I don't believe that, but of course I might be biased. I happen to like him.

What do you like about him?

His honesty with the people when he talks to them on the radio or on TV. Even though he came from a wealthy family, he's down to earth.

How do you think the war is going?

Not very good because of the insurgency, but I was for it. A lot of people were not, but I was because I thought we were doing it to try to free people who were persecuted. Of course, we're having a hard time from a lot of people and that's not helping matters. And naturally, some of the American people are becoming disgruntled. I am not disgruntled, but I am worried for our men that are in the uncomfortable position of being in somebody else's country. They would love to come home, but they can't until they get the police straightened out. What's hard is you can't trust things you always read in the paper. You have to find out for yourself. If you hear a story, you have to read it from different angles.

Where do you get most of your news?

Fox News. I rarely listen to the other big names because I hear a lot of stuff from them that isn't true.

Like what?

Things are going so badly in Iraq. I talk to friends that have sons over there and they say everything is going well. I also always hear that we're not doing anything over there. Of course we are, but it's not being reported. We're building schools and building water systems. We have helped these people tremendously, but I don't know if they even appreciate it because they don't know whether to trust us or not. You try to place yourself in their position, you really do, and it's not easy.


Zoltan Zsohar, 58, author of "Surviving Through Faith"

I'm from an immigrant family. We moved here in 1950. You have no idea what this country has meant to my family. My parents escaped Hungary during World War II. They lived five years as refugees and had the wonderful opportunity to come to this country in 1950. If you go where we're sitting, we have American flags everywhere. We're so patriotic. We just love this country.

What does the word patriotic mean to you?

It means freedom. We've traveled overseas and we've seen the restrictions and the fear people have about their government. In this country, you trust the government to an extent. The poverty and distrust for anybody in uniform in other countries is incredible. We don't have that in this country.

What do you think of the current climate in this country? Are you a Bush fan?

I'm a Bush fan, but I don't support the war. I've got real problems with what's going on, but I support Bush and his overall efforts. I think he means well, but there is a lot of stuff about the war that really bothers me.

Like what?

The original purpose for the war didn't pan out and everybody knows that. It's a mess over there. We should have learned from Vietnam. You better be right before you go in and start a war and we weren't.

So you know all about the Duelfer report and the Downing Street memo?

Oh, yeah. I know about those. I am concerned about what's happening, but I have to support our government. I was brought up to support the government.

Did you vote for Bush the second time around knowing all that you do?

Yeah, because the alternative wasn't that good.

Were you open to voting for a Democrat?

Yes, absolutely. I wasn't sure up until late into the campaign. I'm not a diehard Republican and I'm not a diehard Bush supporter, but I thank god we voted for Bush in the first election because I don't think Gore would have handled 9/11 well.


Barbara Spruill, 61, works for a Christian ministry

What does Memorial Day mean to you?

It's a time to remember the price for freedom and the men and women who've given their lives and paid the ultimate price. I can choose to have a career. I can choose to marry or be single. I can choose what church to go to or not. It's the freedom to choose.

What do you think Bush means when he says freedom?

I assume that he means people deserve the same freedom I have in America. The freedom to vote. The freedom to travel. The freedom to worship as I choose. The freedom to have a career and live my life the way I want to live it. Our nation is founded on the principle that people have rights and one of those rights is the freedom to pursue liberty and happiness. I think that's what he means when he says freedom. I hope that's what he means.

Are you a fan of Bush?

Well, I voted for him. I certainly don't agree with all of his decisions, but I'm sure he wouldn't agree with all of my decisions. I voted for him because I agree with him morally. He's a man of conviction and he says what he means.

What do you mean when you say you agree with him morally?

I'm a Christian. When I say that, I mean that Jesus Christ was the son of God. I believe the Bible is a word to us from God and shows us how he wanted us to live our lives. When I say moral values, I think he holds dear those same values that the Bible addresses and that God holds. I think he has those values.

How do you feel about the war?

I hate war. It should be the last option, but I think there are some people who give you no choice. I think there are times when war is necessary. I don't know if the war in Iraq was necessary. I don't know that any of us know that. You have to have a lot more information than I have to know that. I have to weigh the information I get and then make a decision as to whether it was necessary.

Where do you get your information?

I prefer Fox, but I watch the others because I like to know what other people are thinking. It's important to do that.

In terms of information, the Duelfer report says weapons of mass destruction didn't exist. Have you heard about the Downing Street memo?

No.

It's not getting much press. It's a British memo with notes from a meeting with Tony Blair. It said Bush wanted to remove Saddam through military action, but the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. So basically, it was war first, weapons second, not the other way around.

I know that the weapons of mass destruction was the main reason. Whether there was deception there, I don't know. The result of the war will turn out to be good because I think the majority of the Iraqis hated their lives and hated the way they had to live. Did we go to war over weapons of mass destruction or did we go to remove a ruthless, evil man? We can beat that horse to death. Regardless, we are where we are and I think we're in a good place. I don't think we'll dethrone all dictators. There are dictators everywhere that don't threaten America, but I think he threatened America.

How?

We know at one time he did have weapons. Whether he got rid of them or whether we haven't found them, we don't know.

How do you feel about the fact that we supported Saddam at that time and sold him the weapons?

Again, I don't have all the information.

What about domestic issues?

I'm not sure about education and social security. The jury is out on those two issues. With 9/11, so much of the focus has had to be on other things. Domestic issues have moved to the back burner, but I think they're getting more attention, so we'll see.

Do you always vote Republican?

No, I vote for the person. My father was a staunch Democrat and he always voted for Democrats. I was raised in a Democratic family, but in my 30s I decided that I was going to vote for people that I could align myself with. I happen to agree more with the Republican platform right now because they're more aligned with my values.

[high density]

54. Wow, real reporting, research, and analysis from MSM

That's an amazing thing to see in 2005. The summary paragraphs are a bit weak, but beyond that it's a nice article.

[ngGale]

59. What was it Bush said to the that top 1%...

"they call you the elite, I call you my base." He's doing well for his base, the Hyper rich. The rest can eat cake, they are in for a surprise. :popcorn:

[Nostradamus]

60. the truth is the greatest wealth that ever existed...

The standard propganda model makes it necessary tha the poor must be made to feel guilty or envious..

otherwise the power of money will be replaced by humanity..

very rich people are an irrelevance to the future of the planet..

activists and visionaries are the valued commodities now

[Desertrose]

64. yeah,I agree.... but how long til the truth gets out...

"very rich people are an irrelevance to the future of the planet..

activists and visionaries are the valued commodities now"

How long til people here figure it out...not til its too late to do anything about it...sure hope thats not the case.....

Although the worship of money being replaced by a sacred respect for humanity sounds awful sweet to me...sure would solve a lot of our problems, wouldn't it??

[arthur_d]

62. who cares

who cares, as long as there is nothing preventing someone from becoming as rich as anyone else, what's the big deal? W

[Bozita]

65. And the reason for your post is? ... Seeing as you don't care

curious

[Bridget Burke]

67. We care.

The Walton family are among the richest in the country. They maintain their fortune by keeping many of their employees on the edge of poverty & exploiting workers overseas. And they make political contributions to ensure that things don't change.

In fact--it's not that people are prevented from being rich. It's that many others are kept poor.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. Kick

[Strawman]

72. It only makes sense for 145,000 people nationwide to vote Republican

How? How? How do we ever lose anywhere in this country? How are opinion polls even close? For every dollar one of us makes, the people who own the Republicans (and many of the Democrats) make $18,000. That's astounding! Where is the outrage? There is class warfare going on in this country. The rich are the ones waging it and the rest of us are surrendering. If you're a working class Republican and you want to call the French "surrender monkeys," take a good look in the mirror.

[Champion Jack]

74. Kicked again