Poll: Religious Devotion High in U.S.

[wookie294]

By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer

Religious devotion sets the United States apart from some of its closest allies. Americans profess unquestioning belief in God and are far more willing to mix faith and politics than people in other countries, AP-Ipsos polling found.

In Western Europe, where Pope Benedict XVI complains that growing secularism has left churches unfilled on Sundays, people are the least devout among the 10 countries surveyed for The Associated Press by Ipsos.

Only Mexicans come close to Americans in embracing faith, the poll found. But unlike Americans, Mexicans strongly object to clergy lobbying lawmakers, in line with the nation's historical opposition to church influence.

(snip...)

In contrast, 85 percent of French object to clergy activism — the strongest opposition of any nation surveyed. France has strict curbs on public religious expression and, according to the poll, 19 percent are atheists. South Korea is the only other nation with that high a percentage of nonbelievers.

(I'm moving to France!)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20050606/ap_on_re_us/religion_ap_ipsos_poll

[fujiyama]

1. A nation of religious wackos

Outside of Islamic theocracies, we have the largest number of people that want a mix of religion and politics.

It's very disturbing.

[wookie294]

2. Perhaps the U.S. has more religious wackos than the Muslim world

The United States military (largely Christian) kills more innocent people than Muslims do. Sure, beheadings are gruesome, but the numbers prove Christian-based societies murder more innocent people than Islamic-based societies. Therefore, America is more religiously fanatic than Iran, Saudi Arabia or the fictional character known as "Zarqawi."

[fujiyama]

7. In many ways that's true

The US is a nation with strict puritanical laws on drugs and sex. It is also worth noting we have the largest number of people in prison, as well as a large number of murders and other violent crimes each year (a poll once showed that a large majority of prisoners also believed in God). Also here in the US, the school system is highly politicized where it is difficult to even teach basic scientific concepts like evolution.

While a large number of people may believe we are a Christian based society, I know many here would argue that not to be the case. After all, the founders were not all that devout.

Also, we still have the freedom to worship as we want (though it is being threatened by the likes of Robertson, Dobson, and Falwell). In SA it is illegal to even build a church.

But the trends here in the US are going to wrong way. It seems as though religious fanaticism is growing (at least in political terms), though there may be some shred of hope in the poll - older people have a stronger faith than younger people, so hopefully younger people will learn the dangers of mixing religion and state, though I'm afraid the nation will learn the hard way (it seems as though the Talibornagains would be willing to resort to violence).

[magellan]

3. In SPITE of our nation's historical opposition to church influence. (nt)

[izzie]

8. I think you are right

We do seem to like to kill each other, and have nice big jails. And every one will soon have a gun and please do not even think of doing anything to me or I may shoot. Makes one really feel safe.A country of zealots with guns. I am not talking about the Middle East.Is it that all these people who are acting so crazy learn it in houses of God or what? That is not the same God I learned about as a kid.

[dissent1977]

42. It is not the religion and politics that is disturbing it is the hatred

I am a firm believer in the seperation of church and state, but I think sometimes it is appropriate to mix religion and politics. After all look at Martin Luther King and Gandhi, they certainly mixed religion and politics.

What is scary is that there is a small powerful minority in this country that spouts hatred and calls it family values. They then tell us that if we do not hate as much as they do that we are immoral, and should not be given a say in what happens in our society. It is these religious fascists and their attempts to take over our government that we have to worry about. Always remember it is the seperation of church and state we are worried about, and not the mixing of religion and politics. We need more religious leaders on the left if we are going to win, lets not chase them away.

[Fridays Child]

4. Soon, we'll all be returning to Europe, in pursuit of religious freedom.

The irony is breathtaking, eh?

[getmeouttahere]

25. BINGO was his name-o, Fridays Child....

you just hit the nail on the proverbial head! I'll smile about that all day now!

[Montanan]

54. Isn't Islam filling the religious vacuum in Europe?

They aren't so tolerant, you know.

[Democat]

5. Democrats are allowing Republicans to ruin America

Because elected Democrats won't fight for anything.

[progressivebydesign]

33. Yep. And when our Party Chair speaks out.. they attack.

You're right. The Democrats in power have largely become the very people we despise. Bloated gladhanders who are living fat on corporate money. They are NOT the people who should be Democrats. They might as well go across the aisle and let us start over with REAL Democrats... the empty suits in D.C. do NOT represent us well.

[saltpoint]

6. I hope the work of our Founders outlives the interference of our

far-right nutcases.

That means you, Jim Dobson. Jerry Falwell. Fred Phelps. And so forth.

Thomas Paine's take of this subject still takes the cake, I believe. We could sure use him back today.

[flordehinojos]

9. not devotion. devotion is not what ishigh here. we are high in religious

stupidity. that is what we are high on, all thanks to the stupidity of the bush boy!

[BR_Parkway]

19. lip service or hypocrisy were the words I would have used in place

of devotion. I know some very devout people, but they are so far outnumbered by those who claim religion as a way of fitting in or looking right to the folks down the street.

Same people are Devoted to their SUV's, McMansions and all the other trappings of success in America.

[dbt]

10. Two points:

1. Is this poll as reliable as those concerning bu$hler's approval ratings?

2. Religion is the opiate of the masses. Here, Jim Bob, take you another hit.

[Daphne08]

11. "Rightly or wrongly,

Republicans tend to perceive religion as, quote-unquote, `on their side,'" Green said.


Since most people are basically apolitical, I don't think the majority of Republicans would say they feel this way, therefore, I have serious doubts about the poll results mentioned.

The problem, of course, lies with the fanatical Christians who are bound and determined to effect change in every branch of our government, and that fact alone should be quite alarming to all in this country whether they be Republican or Democrat or whatever.

I have two pertinent questions that should be on the minds of all citizens concerning this issue:

1) Do Americans not see the parallels between Christian fundamentalism here and Islamic fundamentalism in the Middle East and elsewhere?

2) How long will it be before "our" fundamentalists become militant?

[deacon2]

39. Daphne08 - To answer your excellent questions

1) Do Americans not see the parallels between Christian fundamentalism here and Islamic fundamentalism in the Middle East and elsewhere?

No, most do not see it. To do so requires objectivity and the ability to entertain two or more competing thoughts at the same time.

2) How long will it be before "our" fundamentalists become militant?

They are militant now, and have been for quite some time. Currently, they are placing a full court press on the judiciary. Failing that, I think it's going to be Timmy McVeigh time on a much grander scale. Let's not forget who does all the good "christian" killin' of doctors and nurses at the abortion clinics.

[LynnTheDem]

12. Jesus attacked and occupied nations that hadn't been doing anything

against anyone, too.

Yep, God is with us.

[LynnTheDem]

13. "Some say rejecting religion is a natural response to modernization..."

-I agree.

"...and consider the United States a strange exception to the trend."

-I disagree.

[shadowknows69]

14. that should read

misguided religious posturing or fanatical religous extremeism

[monarch]

15. Is there any correlation between rise in religiosity and national

decline? We all know people who become increasingly religious when they see death approaching. Has anyone studied the same phenomenon with respect to governments?

[reprobate]

35. The correlation is that to accept religion is to reject the rational.

Decisions are then made on the basis of faith and not facts. That almost inevitably leads to bad decisions in politics, economics, education, etc., and that almost inevitably leads to a national decline.

I think that pagan societies stand a better chance at longevity than monotheistic societies.

[shantipriya]

16. Religion

Ya, but we don't practise what religion teaches. We are the most war mongering nation in the last half a century.This has resulted in millions of innocent deaths.The level of hypocrisy is insane!

[leesa]

17. Yes. It's terrible.

[0007]

18. Give me a fucking break...this country is spiritually bankrupted

Who's kidding who?

We use religion like the crook uses his mask.

[nightfox02]

24. that was classic

I totally agree. We use religion to suit our own ends in this country...

Looking at all the Canyoneros on the road with W'04 stickers tells you all you need to know.

Christ said it best ...look at the actions not the words.

At all the megachurches I drive by Mercedes and BMW seem to be the sign of the times not the cross...

Actions not words people...

[jukes]

20. i don't buy it

our fundie extremists are just fucking LOUDER!


america is dead. this country is a corporate oligarchy pandering to religious extremists in order to gain support for it's wars of conquest.



of the 11 houses in my subdivision, 10 are southern fundies. 9 have 1 or more young adults of military age (only 1 household has 1 son of service age; the other 8 have multiples.)


guess how many are in the military???

[depakid]

21. You're right not to buy it

These cheap media polls are are a bunch of crap- methodologically flawed and agenda driven.

Pay me the money, and I'll design you a nice looking poll whose results say the contrary.

[renaissanceguy]

27. I wonder who they poll

and where they get their sample from.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

28. Fishy Numbers

Every poll I've ever seen (including very good work done by the Pew Charitable Trust) shows the atheist/agnostic numbers for the U.S. between ten and fifteen percent. I've never seen a number that low -- and I've never seen a poll that says forty percent of Americans want religious leaders to browbeat their political leaders.

Something isn't right here. Did they conduct their polling only at Mississippi tent revivals?

[depakid]

38. Take a look at the scientific numbers

Quick Table: GSS 1972-2002 Cumulative Datafile

{on edit- table screwed up- I'll just post males}

Results: Feelings About the Bible BY Gender (Percents)

WORD OF GOD 28.2
INSPIRED WORD 51.0
BOOK OF FABLES 19.8
OTHER 1.0
------------------------------------

Results: How Often R Attends Religious Services BY Gender (Percents)



NEVER 17.8 13.0
LT ONCE A YEAR 9.4
ONCE A YEAR 15.6
SEVRL TIMES A YR 13.9
ONCE A MONTH 7.4
2-3X A MONTH 7.9
NRLY EVERY WEEK 5.1
EVERY WEEK 16.8
MORE THN ONCE WK 5.9
Total Percent 100.0
(Total N) (18,935)

----------------------------------------

Results: How Fundamentalist is R Currently BY Gender (Percents)

FUNDAMENTALIST 29.7
MODERATE 43.4
LIBERAL 26.9
Total Percent 100.0
(Total N) (18,359)

[Tempest]

30. It's not who they poll

The real question is are the respondents honest in their answers.

From all accounts, the answer is no.

[depakid]

37. It's also who responds!

That's the single biggest problem- it's called response bias. Most people without a strong opinion won't even bother these days- that is- if they even pick up the phone!

There's also a little matter of selection bias (can't call cell phones) and clustering- which the media polls always screw up because IT'S EXPENSIVE to do it right.

[JNelson6563]

22. Should read: Feigning Religious Devotion

at all time highs. Seems to me the more "devout" a person is the more "wicked" they are.

The simian is a perfect example of this.

Julie

[Tempest]

29. The religious disconnect

More Americans are claiming to be devout, but attendance at church's continues to decrease.

Not only that, but contributions to church's in America continue to decline.

[reprobate]

36. Yes, that IS the telling statistic!

[pippin]

23. In Contrast to the Sensible Scottish Folk

see thread at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1526156
:-(

[getmeouttahere]

26. If I drank scotch, I'd raise my glass...

in a toast to the Scots! It will have to be wine, however.

[RPM]

31. So is ignorance, racism, elitism and bigotry

coincidence? you decide....

[Arugula Latte]

32. This explains a lot.

People here are gullible enough to swallow both that Adam and Eve were the "first humans" and that George W. Bush is a great leader. :puke:

[AndyTiedye]

34. VIVA LA FRANCE!

I'm feeling up for a nice Bordeaux. Anyone else?

In contrast, 85 percent of French object to clergy activism — the strongest opposition of any nation surveyed.

[dissent1977]

40. It is time to revive the religious left

One of the greatest problems the left has had in organizing lately is that we have not been able to motivate religious people. There was at one time a strong left-wing religious movement in this country, but it has in large part died. It has died because we have allowed the right to hijack religion to push their neo-fascist agenda. We hear them preaching hate and telling us that we are immoral if we don't hate is much as they do, and it obviously turns off big time. As a result we often lash out at all Christians even though many of them reject the teachings of the religious right.

We are also very concerned about the seperation of church and state, as we should be. What we often forget however is the seperation of church and state is not the same as the seperation of chuch and politics. People's political values are influenced by their religious beliefs, and that will never change. The left has seen such great religious leaders on our side as the Berrigan brothers, Jesse Jackson, Jim Wallis, the Quakers, Al Sharpton, and of course Martin Luther King Jr. Virtually every person on the left of the political spectrum embraces Martin Luther King's teachings, but we forget that those teachings were based on religion. If we can motivate liberals and leftists in the churches we can show that the right wing does not have a monopoly on religion and this is what we need to do.

And in case anyone was wondering, I am an agnostic. I do not follow any organized religion myself, but I believe we should respect those who do as long as they respect our values.

[IndianaGreen]

41. Our Founding Fathers would have been appalled!

Here is a good article in Common Dreams that is relevant to this topic:

Published on Sunday, June 5, 2005 by the Columbus Free Press (Ohio)

The Fundamentalist Attack on Separation of Church & State Defames America and Its Founders

by Harvey Wasserman

Nowhere in the Constitution they wrote does the word "Christian" or the name of Christ appear. The very first phrase of the First Amendment demands that "Congress shall make no law concerning an establishment of religion."

One major reason Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Tom Paine, Ethan Allen and the vast majority of early Americans rejected the merger of church and state was the lingering stench of Puritan intolerance. The infamous theocratic murders of the Salem witch trials sickened the American soul, just as today's power grab by Karl Rove's new corporate fundamentalists creates an atmosphere of intolerance and fear, defined by the world's largest prison gulag.

With characteristic duplicity, the radical right is attempting to re-write another of this nation's most cherished beliefs. Consider a widely circulated screed by the University of Dayton's Larry Schweikart. With astonishing inaccuracy, Schweikart asserts that Jefferson's famous demand for a "wall of separation between church and state" doesn't really mean what it says. Jefferson's observation that the founding fathers were not particularly devout is also dismissed, as if Schweikart knew them all and Jefferson didn't.

Twisting metaphors, changing meanings and ignoring Jefferson's Unitarianism, Schweikart conjures a completely fictitious endorsement for a Christian state.

Then comes the astonishing assertion that the incomparably urbane, tolerant and ever-eclectic Benjamin Franklin was somehow a Christian soldier. Never mind that in his Autobiography the Puritan-born Franklin, with his usual wry wit, laments having been dragged by a friend to church, from which he fled back to his books and experiments.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0605-24.htm

[daleo]

43. This poll is obviously flawed.

"Nearly all U.S. respondents said faith was important to them and only 2 percent said they did not believe in God, according to the polling conducted for the AP by Ipsos."

That number is preposterously low. Either the poll has incredible response bias (the sample doesn't accurately reflect the underlying population) or incredible social desirability bias (people don't admit things to pollsters that go against the percieved norm).

A proper poll of the Vatican would come up with more that 2% who had lost faith in the notion of God.

[daleo]

44. Here is the belief question, broken down by response, U.S. and Canada

Question Response- U.S., Canada
I don’t believe in God-2, 6
Don't know and don't believe there is a way to know-4, 6
No personal God, but "higher power"- 11, 24
I believe in God sometimes but not always- 2, 5
I have some doubts but basically believe- 10, 14
I know God exists and have no doubts- 70, 43
No response- 1, 2

(Tables never format very well in posts).

I can't believe Americans are that much different from Canadians. I am inclined to say that they just don't feel comfortable expressing any doubt on the point.

Interestingly, only 56% of Americans said they were either Catholic or Protestant, compared to 53% of Canadians. In the U.S. 31% said "other religions" (this did not include Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist), compared to 24% of Canadians. Make of it what you will.

[iverglas]

45. US / Canada (and rest of world) divide

I can't believe Americans are that much different from Canadians.

The 2001 census of Canada put the proportion of people who responded "no religion" substantially higher than what it was in 1991 -- 16%, up from 12%. I've understood that the percentage of USAmericans who report having no religion is about 10%. The question on the questionnaire that you quote is different ("no religion" not = "don't believe in god"), so the responses aren't really comparable across the different measurement instruments.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/analytic/companion/rel/pdf/96F0030XIE2001015.pdf

The census showed that in the province of British Columbia (west coast), "no religion" was chosen by about 35% of respondents (more than double its closest competitor, RC).

There really is a significant difference between Canada and the US in this respect.

Prior to 1971, fewer than 1% of the Canadian population reported having no religion. In 2001, that percentage increased to 16% of the population, or just under 4.8 million people, compared with 3.3 million a decade earlier.

Immigration was a factor in the growth of those with no religious affiliation. One-fifth of the 1.8 million immigrants who arrived in Canada between 1991 and 2001 reported they had no religion, especially individuals born in the People's Republic of China, Hong Kong (Special Administrative Region) and Taiwan.

Interestingly, only 56% of Americans said they were either Catholic or Protestant, compared to 53% of Canadians. In the U.S. 31% said "other religions" (this did not include Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist), compared to 24% of Canadians. Make of it what you will.

A few points.

First, the higher number of "no religion" respondents in the Cdn census is (to some extent) reflected in these figures: RC + protestant + other = 87% in the US, 77% in Canada (with Jewish, Muslim and Buddhist respondents not included).

About twice as much of Canada's population is made up of people born outside the country as is the case in the US (about 20% vs. about 10%, again). Although European immigrants do account for a large proportion of first-generation immigrants in Canada, there are, for example, relatively large Hindu and Sikh populations among those immigrants and second and third-generation immigrants. I suspect that the lower "other" figure is in good part a reflection of the very large weight of the RC population: all others will account for lower proportions of the population as a result.

A far higher proportion of the Cdn population is RC than in the US. However, this does not result in a rightward skewing, in political terms. The main reason for the weight of the RC population is Quebec, where the overwhelming majority of the long-established population is RC (as are many more recent immigrant communities: Lebanese, Haitian, French African, etc.). And Quebec is unquestionably the most progressive province in the country, in both "social" and, broadly speaking, economic terms.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/analytic/companion/fam/canada.cfm

The trend toward common-law was again strongest in Quebec, where 508,520 common-law families represented 30% of all couple families in that province.

A recent study based on Statistics Canada’s General Social Survey showed that common-law unions have become more and more popular in Quebec, and that trend has started to take hold among younger people in other provinces.

The last couple of generations in Quebec use birth control and have abortions at no lower rate than Cdns in the rest of Canada, for instance. They tend to be European in their relationship with the RC church: they simply do what they want on matters that they regard as their own business. And self-identification as RC in response to a census question or poll doesn't mean that they're likely to be seen in a church on Sunday; religion has simply long been identified with culture, language, and national identity in Quebec. The Quiet Revolution of the 50s-60s ousted the church from the position in which it exercised power through the province's right-wing politicians, and in a generation the entire political and social landscape underwent a sea change, but the cultural identification remains.

But yes, the poll results do differ significantly from census results for Canada, the latter being undoubtedly the more reliable:

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/030513/d030513a.htm

... far more Canadians reported that they had no religion. This group accounted for 16% of the population in 2001, compared with 12% a decade earlier.

In 2001, Roman Catholics were still the largest religious group, drawing the faith of just under 12.8 million people, or 43% of the population, down from 45% in 1991. The proportion of Protestants, the second largest group, declined from 35% of the population to 29%, or about 8.7 million people.

Combined, the two groups represented 72% of the total population in 2001, compared with 80% a decade earlier.

[iverglas]

46. don't like those numbers? - try these

On a quick google, I can't find a site that gives first-hand info about the World Values Survey, conducted on a ten-year basis by the University of Michican, which is decidedly not a purveyor of "cheap media polls". (Neither is Ipsos, but whatever.)

But here's a story in The Economist that tells the story.

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1511812

Unlike the other two polls, this survey goes back a long way. The university has been sending out hundreds of questions for the past 25 years (it now covers 78 countries with 85% of the world's population). Its distinctive feature is the way it organises the replies. It arranges them in two broad categories. The first it calls traditional values; the second, values of self-expression.

The survey defines “traditional values” as those of religion, family and country. Traditionalists say religion is important in their lives. They have a strong sense of national pride, think children should be taught to obey and that the first duty of a child is to make his or her parents proud. They say abortion, euthanasia, divorce and suicide are never justifiable. At the other end of this spectrum are “secular-rational” values: they emphasise the opposite qualities.

... But now look at America's position on the traditional-secular axis. It is far more traditional than any west European country except Ireland. It is more traditional than any place at all in central or Eastern Europe. America is near the bottom-right corner of the chart, a strange mix of tradition and self-expression.

I'm not finding the report I was originally looking for, but here's a second-hand report of the gist:

http://www.evolvefish.com/freewrite/EuropeRises.html

According to the European Values Study, only about 21 percent of all Europeans said religion was "very important" to them. Although the methodology was not precisely comparable, a Gallup Poll this year showed that 58 percent of Americans defined religion that way.

Essentially, when it comes to religiosity, USAmericans fall into the group mainly composed of developing countries, in the importance they place on religion. The populations of European and other western/developed nations (e.g. Canada) place far less importance on religion.

How about these numbers?

http://erg.environics.net/news/default.asp?aID=456
(that's a longish article and very worth reading)

The "father <of the family> must be master <in his own house>" question has become legendary at Environics. We love it because it measures a traditional, patriarchal attitude to authority in our most cherished institution: the family. Sons inherit the land, starting with the first -- primogeniture prevents estates from being subdivided like amoebas. Sons inherit the family business as in Smith and Son. Sons, not daughters, are named "Junior" in the hope they will prove worthy of their father's aristocratic seed.

... In our 2000 Canadian survey, only 5 per cent reported being strongly in support of patriarchal authority <a total of 23 per cent "supported" it> ... .

The proportion in France favouring patriarchal leadership had also declined from 61 per cent in 1975 to 30 per cent in 2000. ...

Meanwhile, we found that where 42 per cent of Americans believed the father should be master in 1992, the number increased to 44 per cent in 1996. We wondered if this was a statistical anomaly. We went back into the field in 2000 ... This time, 48 per cent of Americans said the father of the family must be master in his own home; 51 per cent disagreed and 1 per cent had no opinion. We were stunned.

"Traditional values" are alive and well and getting stronger in the US, while in all otherwise comparable nations they are on the decline.

There may not be a correspondingly higher level of genuine religious belief or commitment, but I do think that quite a number of people in the US would be quite prepared to offer religion as the basis/justification for their right-wing values.

[iverglas]

47. "fire and ice" values survey

A note on that Environics "values" survey. The Cdns hereabouts are mostly familiar with it, but the USAmericans probably aren't.

You can take an abridged version of it yourself here:
http://fireandice.environics.net/surveys/fireandice/main/fireandice.asp?surveyID=1

This survey assesses human social values by asking questions about your views of the world, and about your personal goals, wishes, hopes, dreams, and expectations. ...

... When you have finished it you will be positioned on our North American social values map and classified into the social values map quadrant you show the strongest similarity to. You will then be given a more detailed profile of that quadrant and have an opportunity to examine the values profiles of people from other quadrants as well.

This survey is a much shorter version of the standard one Environics uses to diagnose people's values and quadrant memberships ... .

The thing is, as I understand it, that Canadians (and Europeans, to a possibly lesser extent) will be concentrated farther toward the bottom right-hand corner (fulfilment and individuality) than USAmericans. Here's me (admittedly an extreme example), for instance:

http://fireandice.environics.net/surveys/fireandice/compare.asp?sid=1&tribeID=3&x=1.95&y=-2.14&dat=16730&sidImage=true
(but take the survey first!)

The "fire and ice" reference is to Michael Adams' book, Fire and Ice: The United States, Canada and the Myth of Converging Values.

In actual fact, as various investigations have found, the US diverges from its historical counterparts in the rest of the world, in terms of the extent to which values of the "traditional" kind are held by the population, and the US is evidently diverging ever farther from the path taken in all those other countries.

[daleo]

48. I have read "Fire and Ice" and recommend it highly

It is a very interesting analysis of Canada-U.S. differences and similarities, and is reasonably "evidence-based", as opposed to most of the punditry on the subject.

I agree that there is some divergence between the U.S. and Canada, but I still have trouble believing that 70% of U.S. citizens have "no doubt" about the existence of God vs. 45% of Canadians. It just seems like too fundamental an issue of human introspection, if you will, to get that much divergence between two otherwise rather similar societies. That's why I think a substantial part of the difference is social desirability bias - i.e. it is simply a greater social taboo to express doubt (or a very nuanced opinion) on traditional religious matters, in particular the existence of God.

[iverglas]

49. don't actually disagree

That's why I was rather clumsily shifting the topic to "values" rather than religion.

... I still have trouble believing that 70% of U.S. citizens have "no doubt" about the existence of God vs. 45% of Canadians. It just seems like too fundamental an issue of human introspection ... . That's why I think a substantial part of the difference is social desirability bias - i.e. it is simply a greater social taboo to express doubt (or a very nuanced opinion) on traditional religious matters, in particular the existence of God ...

In 2000, 23% of Canadians and 48% of USAmericans agreed with the statement (in Environics' social attitudes survey) "the father of the family must be master in his own home". That is a huge difference, and a difference that has been actually growing for years, as a result of the figure both declining in Canada and rising in the US. And that plainly is a "social" / attitudinal matter.

I have no doubt that unnuanced belief - or a claim to unnuanced belief - in the particular god usually in question, in the US, correlates pretty well with patriarchal attitudes.

So what I was getting at (it was very late ...) was essentially very close to what you're getting at. The claim to hold an unnuanced belief in this particular god is probably a reflection of patriarchal, "conservative" social attitudes, rather than a genuine reflection of religious belief, in very many cases.

And really, those attitudes, rather than religious belief itself, are the source of most of the problems that tend to be associated with religious fundamentalism. People's position on, for instance, clergy activism in politics, or contraception and abortion, or the rights of sexual minorities, is very arguably a product of their patriarchal social attitudes rather than their religious belief, or at least just as much as their religious belief. And that is very arguably as true of USAmericans as it is of various other people who claim to adhere to fundamentalist religious beliefs ... like, oh, the Taliban.

(Which came first: the religion or the attitudes? The perennial question ...)

And it's when it comes to those attitudes that the US population resembles the population of Afghanistan more closely than the population of, say, France or Canada (in some different respects in the two cases).

I'd say you're quite right that the "religious belief" numbers should be taken, in large part, as a measurement of social attitudes rather than anything theological. I just wouldn't specify that the religious belief numbers arise out of the social unacceptability of expressing doubt. I'd say that the firm religious belief that many respondents claimed to hold was a reflection of the widespread "social conservatism" that mainly claims to draw its legitimacy precisely from that kind of religious belief.

If you oppose abortion and same-sex marriage, you legitimize your position by appealing to the god you claim to so firmly believe in. Or you just let the Falwells of the world do the work for you, and give them your support by rallying to their god when a pollster shows up.

[daleo]

50. That is a good analysis, especially about what is behind the bias.

My claim that a lot of this was social desirability bias is probably too glib, when you look at it this way. The taboo about expressing very much doubt about the existence of God would correlate highly with the fundamentalist behaviors we are seeing all too often, and therefore the difference between the U.S. and the rest of the world is a genuine one.

I was focusing more on the concept of "authentic belief", which is a pretty nebulous one anyway. It is the 'holier than thou' stuff in the way the surveys are reported in the U.S. media that I sometimes object to. By that I mean the implication that the U.S. is authentically more spiritual than most of the western world, whatever that might mean.

[iverglas]

53. ha!

... the implication that the U.S. is authentically more spiritual than most of the western world, whatever that might mean.

Yes indeed, that is probably how a whole lot of those who give these answers do like to look at it! And of course, that's a large part of the whole problem.

Obviously, the rest of us out here look at it quite differently. The anti-clerical French, the fulfilment-seeking Canadians, the mind-your-own-business Brits: we just see a country being run by and for a whole load of loons. ;) Unless we look below the surface, and consider what they really are and what they're really up to, of course.

I guess I just automatically look at these kinds of figures and see a bunch of "father must be master in his own home" talibornagains (to whoever coined that one -- I've only seen it at DU -- my thanks), paying tribute to the graven image that gives them what they want.

And we really do need to go behind the "hypocrites!" that is such a common response, including here, and see what those people are really saying.

[hippiegranny]

51. ok, so WHO was polled?

where did they get these participants? churches? they didn't ask me.

[jsw_81]

52. This is one of those things that I really dislike about our country

In terms of religiosity we're right up there with fundamentalist Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan. When oh when will the god-drunk American people wake up from their religion-induced haze? Probably not anytime soon. In the meantime we members of the fact-based community will have to somehow deal with it. Sigh.

[0007]

55. Ah yes, its at a fever pitch! The KKK is running soup kitchens

in the South for the Blacks. The repukes are working with the Dem's to help keep the courts well balanced. The homo's and the straights are singing together in completed understanding of God's work.