Ontario Liberal MP to sit as Independent (over gay marriage)

[Newsjock]

The math below is scary again for Canada: Lib+NDP = 152, CP+BQ = 152.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/06/obrien050606.html

Ontario Liberal member of Parliament Pat O'Brien announced Monday he will leave his party and sit as an Independent because he doesn't like how the Liberals are handling hearings on the same-sex marriage legislation.

O'Brien, 57, who represents the federal riding of London-Fanshawe, opposes same-sex marriage.

... The move leaves the Liberals with 133 seats in the House of Commons, the Conservatives with 98, the Bloc Québécois with 54, the NDP with 19 and four independents.

more

[Canuckistanian]

1. Uh-Oh, what about Tom Wappel?

That nutcase has just been out-'holier-than-thou'd' by Pat O
Brien.
He'll want to jump ship next.

[getmeouttahere]

2. Just goes to show...

that the U.S. doesn't have exclusivity when it comes to religious intolerance. I fear that this kind of thing signals that North America will soon have another damaging conservative government on its hands. I hope I'm wrong, Canadians!

[Spazito]

3. The Bloc and the NDP will support the same sex bill

as well as the majority of Liberals. There is no doubt it will pass it is just a matter of when, before the members leave for the summer or in the fall. The Libs want it passed before the summer break.

[Maple]

4. Agreed

There is a small group of Liberals that have always voted against it, so this doesn't change the numbers. It just gets O'Brien some free publicity.

[getmeouttahere]

5. that's good news, Spazito...question for you...

despite the current alliance between the conservatives and bloc quebecois, do you think there is a link between the reign of a conservative Canadian govt and sovereignty referendums? Wasn't the last referendum held just after or during Mulroney's tenure? I have many friends in Quebec and from what I've seen and read there doesn't seem to be much of substance when it comes to a conservative party in La Belle Province.

[Spazito]

9. The Conservatives have no hold in Quebec

and will never get one, it will always be a tug of war between the Liberals and the Bloc. Quebecers are very liberal, small l, in their beliefs.

As to the question of sovereignty referendums and the ebb and flow of the desire for them among Quebecers, the 1980 referendum occurred just after Joe Clark was defeated by Trudeau but Clark was only in power for less than a year and it had been Trudeau before that so it could not be a Conservative backlash but the 1995 one certainly could be seen that way as Mulroney had been in power from 84 to 93 although Chretien was seen as no friend of Quebec to Quebecers so it could have been a backlash to the election of Chretien as well, it is hard to say which was the catalyst, imo.

It may well be interesting times ahead as the sovereignty movement is gaining support again although they have much tighter criteria they have to meet regarding the question they can put forth in a referendum, etc, which gives me some comfort but not certainty.

I hope this has answered your questions although this is only my perspective and other Canadian DUers may well have a different view.

Edited to clean up some poor sentence structure and errors.

[meppie-meppie not]

11. I agree that the battle in Quebec has always been between the

Liberals and the Bloc but I totally disagree that Quebecer's are liberals with a small l. Having lived there for several years and given my in-laws live (and always have) in Shawinigan I have found Quebecer's to be the most progressive thinkers in this country. Used to be (60's) that Quebec was run with an iron grid by the Catholic Church. The Church dictated every facet of their lives and they literally liberated themselves from the churches tight fisted clutch. Their refusal to let their language be relegated to a second class status is not liberal with a little l. IMO

[Spazito]

17. I in no way meant that small L liberal was different than progressive

in the general sense as opposed to the political sense. I don't, as a general rule, use progressive because I find progressive to be defined differently depending on the way in which it is used and by whom. It seems small L liberal has the same problem which I didn't know was the case.

I am not sure what you mean when you say this:

"Their refusal to let their language be relegated to a second class status is not liberal with a little l. IMO"

This is not a challenge to your statement only a genuine question as to what you mean by it.

[meppie-meppie not]

23. In 74 when I went to live in Quebec there were not any French

signage outside stores or on roadways all signs were basically in English and yet the population was predominantly French. In the small towns and villages you would find French signs unless the federal government caught wind of it and because English was the "official" language the proprietor had to change to have the English first. When speaking with Quebecers one found the language was being riddled with English/French words and was truly in danger of becoming completely bastardized. So when the Bloc fought to have French made an "official" language along with English that was a win of paramount importance, preserving the language.

[Spazito]

25. Thanks for the explanation!

I fully support the protection of the French language in Quebec, I lived in Montreal for two years, 69 and 70, and loved it. At that time, I was in high school, having transferred from Ontario, and had to become fluent in French in double quick time. It has been a benefit to me while travelling in Europe, etc, although I have, sadly, lost my fluency due to the lack of opportunity to practice it once leaving Quebec.

[daleo]

29. Here is a good reference on the subject

Bill 63, Bill 22, Bill 101, Bill 178, Bill 86 - they are all explained. The history is a bit complicated, and I don't think owners were ever required to change signs to English. Certainly not after Trudeau passed the Official Languages act in 1969 or so. As for the Bloc, I don't think it existed until the 1990's although the PQ goes back to the 1960's or so.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bill101/

[getmeouttahere]

20. I think they called it the "Quiet Revolution", right?

of course there was one period that wasn't so quiet, which would be the October crisis. But other than that, I think the Quebecois liberating themselves from both the Catholic Church & the English minority is one of the great accomplishments of the 20th century in North America.

[Spazito]

21. I agree re freeing themselves from the yoke of the Church

and the control of the English minority was definitely what was needed in Quebec. Protecting the French language within the province, too, was the right move, imo.

Thanks for mentioning the 'Quiet Revolution'. I needed to go back and refresh my memory on this as I had not seen the term used for a long time and it is important when I have to re-educate myself on Canadian history and remember the correct facts, so, thanks again!

[getmeouttahere]

27. I always try to look at it from the French perspective....

if you were the one speaking a language which was surrounded by a majority of english speakers, you would want to protect it too. I think Quebecers have the best of both worlds...being part of Canada, a great country in its own right, and still feeling like they have their own country within a country.

[meppie-meppie not]

24. Exactly! Nicely said and spot on.

[getmeouttahere]

13. Ok, I feel better....

after reading yours and other comments here. I have friends right accross Canada, from Vancouver to Fredericton, and not one of them is conservative or would fall for this supposed moderate conservative movement.

[CHIMO]

6. Christians capturing Tory party

Winnipeg Free Press, Friday, June 3rd, 2005

Christians capturing Tory party
by Frances Russell

What worries a clear majority of Canadians is a peculiarly American strain of Christianity that clamours for its own religious freedom and rights, but squelches them for others.

In the lead-up to last March's Conservative convention, Craig Chandler, a prominent evangelical Christian and social conservative, publicly urged Mr. Harper to follow the Bush Republicans.

"The re-election of U.S. President George W. Bush is a testament to the political activity and clout of evangelical Christians," Mr. Chandler, a prominent Conservative, said. "President Bush did not waver in his unequivocal support of social conservative positions. He was clearly pro-life and in favour of traditional marriage. He was not ashamed to proclaim his born-again Christianity in the public forum."

Mr. Chandler also reminded Mr. Harper that it was social conservatives who had "organized to ensure he defeated Belinda Stronach, a well-known liberal who has successfully infiltrated the Conservative Party."

http://www.davidorchard.com/online/2do-index.html

The article is from The Winnipeg Free Press. But it is subscription only. The full article is available at David Orchard's site above.
Although the SSM bill won't be defeated if the government is defeated on another bill before the summer recess then the Senate will not be able to pass the bill.

It shows the same type of tactic as down south. Which is take no prisoners. They want to throw this into the election.

[getmeouttahere]

7. Ok, that's NOT good news, CHIMO...

and didn't I just read that Belinda Stronach moved over to the liberals?

BTW, is that Chimo as in the Chimo Motel in Cochrane, Ontario. I stayed there once!

[CHIMO]

8. Yes

She jumped over to the Liberals. It was quite the thing as it prevented the fall of the government. If one reads the whole article then one can see that she was being marginalized in her own party by the right or more aptly by the reform group that hijacked the conservative party.

Chimo is from Inuktitut language. I didn't take it from anything else. We used to use it as a toast much like "cheers". A truer definition is given in the link below.

http://www.isfeldbc.com/text/chimo.html

[getmeouttahere]

15. That's a nice link, Chimo, thanks!

Sounds like maybe part of your media has been hijacked by the Conrad Black crowd. I stopped reading CANOE online for my Canadian news, too much conservative propaganda. It seemed every week I was reading another BushCo apologist. What is your source for Canadian news? Major metropolitan newspapers? CBC? SRC?

[CHIMO]

19. Pretty Much

The CBC and The Toronto Star for news and comment on the Canadian portion.

[arikara]

28. Here's the link for a good Canadian site

they have articles from many sources along with the readers comments. Something along the lines of DU.

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/

[Spazito]

10. Actually, I think it is good news more than bad...

Canadians didn't and don't trust Harper and his party whether it was called Reform, Alliance or the faux New Conservatives because they are seen as having a hidden agenda, part of which is the religious overtones.

With the fundamentalists from Focus on the Family becoming candidates, it only re-enforces that distrust among Canadians and will not serve the Harper pretense that his new Conservative party is moderate.

There is infighting in the faux Conservative party as to whether Harper should have intervened to stop the radicals from gaining the nomination because of the harm it will do to the parties chances in convincing Canadians of a moderate Conservative platform.

[meppie-meppie not]

12. Harper is a baby Nazi and Canadian's see him and his party

for what they are! In Alberta here, there was even a KKK chapter years back and I think they are still there just keeping vewwwwy quiet.

[daleo]

14. There will be some grandstanding over same sex marriage

But I don't think the government will fall over the issue. As someone else said, the Bloc and NDP will support this issue, so a few Liberals can afford to vote against the party and not risk an election. The Conservatives may even lose a person or two the other way (well, I think it is possible in theory anyway).

[getmeouttahere]

16. I knew there was a reason....

I had to stop reading CANOE or any Conrad Black-owned media. They had me convinced that the Canadian govt was on the verge of complete upheaval in favor of the tories. This despite I did not know one single Canadian who supports them.

[daleo]

18. Like the U.S., much of our media is seriously biased

Yes, it is best to take anything you read or hear with a grain of salt. The CBC isn't bad. Sometimes the Globe and Mail still does good journalism in spite of their partisanship for the Conservatives.

[Spazito]

22. I would add the Toronto Star to the list as well,

I find them to be a good source as part of my news searches.

[getmeouttahere]

26. Thanks for chipping in on that, Spazito...

I used to read the online version but at some point got lazy and started using CANOE instead, mostly for hockey news. Now I go to the CBC or RDS for hockey news.