Britain may tell drivers to pay $2.30 per mile

[Newsjock]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002322195_road09.html

By Mark Rice-Oxley
The Christian Science Monitor

LONDON — Congestion on British roads has become so bad that government officials are proposing a dramatic measure to stave off what they call "L.A.-style gridlock."

Under the plan, drivers would pay for using every single road in the country. Satellite and Global Positioning System (GPS) equipment would track vehicles, charging drivers according to the route they take.

Busy roads at busy times could cost up to the equivalent of $2.30 a mile, according to preliminary proposals. Small rural routes would cost a few cents a mile.

The idea, to be formally unveiled today by Transport Minister Alastair Darling, would be unprecedented in its scope. Several countries have talked about "road pricing," or variable pricing, for decades, but nothing on such a scale has been considered before.

A pilot project similar to the British plan began in the Seattle area late last year, but results won't be reported until 2006.

more

[acmavm]

1. What a dirty racket. What the hell happens if you can't pay the tolls?

Global tracking you say? What a nice excuse to make sure you can track everyone's movements. (Or am I being too paranoid and cynical? No, on second thought probably not.)

[reprobate]

10. And we have the perfect way of enforcing this.

Consider coupling the GPS with the coming orgital laser system. Don't pay your bill? Zap!

[izzie]

15. I guess they will need a larger CIA if they do this

I know it is M12 or some such number but you know what I mean.By the way has any one seen the ID you need to beable to drive? In the USA. Pretty soon it is going to be easier to buy a gun then getting on a plane, getting into a public building and driving your car.

[IA_Seth]

21. My first thought as well! n/t

[DS1]

2. Yay! Kill off all the rural areas with congestion, litter, pollution

and all that other crap in the name of investing more in public transportation.

[punpirate]

3. Of course, no one...

... thinks that this sort of plan is wholly undemocratic--all taxpayers pay for the construction and upkeep of those roads, but only the wealthy will be able to have unlimited use of them.

And, since New Labour and the Tories before them have done everything they could possibly do to privatize public transportation, it now can't be fully subsidized to encourage its use over cars, making all transporation more expensive and increasingly out of reach for the poor.

Brilliant.

[izzie]

16. Yar and your tax money helps find new drugs and who gets the profits?

So they are tax payers roads but I do not always think the govt. will play fair on this. When I was in high school in the 50's they put in the toll road in Maine. It was to be free once it was paid for. It is still a toll road. It is a cash cow for the state and they are never going to give up that cash. Specially when it comes from non-Mainers, If the people will pay to use the roads they will do it. I can not believe they can get it into law.

[punpirate]

17. But you aren't paying $2.30 a mile...

... are you? Someone making a 15-mile commute in the most congested areas of suburban London would be paying over $60/day in fees. That's what I mean by restricting the roads to the rich.

[amazona]

19. ever been to London?

No one has any business making a 15 mile commute by car in the most congested areas of greater London anyway. The public transportation is great, and there is no where to park a car if you had one.

[punpirate]

22. Yes... I've lived in England.

And, public transportation isn't what it used to be--as I said, there's been a long process of privatization at work, by both the Tories and New Labour. The tracks are screwed up, the trains don't run on time, and no one likes to be late for work. The older high-density double-decker buses are breaking down and it's getting harder and harder to find parts for them (and, I think the bus builders will no longer be building new ones in the near future).

The simple fact, though, is that the congestion in greater London is a reality. The Mayor of London, in the last year or two, was trying to ban all traffic in parts of downtown London because of the congestion and the air quality. Now, everybody would have to live with that state of affairs equally, rich and poor alike.

That's my point. When one puts mileage on a paying basis, especially at a high rate, only the rich have quick and easy access.

Cheers.

[Nihil]

26. Thanks for the information

This is certainly news to those of us who merely live and work around
London ... now if only you were talking about *here* and *now* then
yes, it would make sense ...

This is a shitty idea for several reasons:
- The government will never abolish road tax (the pollution-adjusted
annual fee) as that ties in with vehicle registration (which is here
for ever).
- The much-quoted £1.30 per mile is the current maximum ... there is
no provision (that I've seen) to control how often or how much the
rate per mile on any particular stretch of road can be increased.
- The only suggested methods of controlling this involve mandatory
tracking of every legal vehicle in the UK, day & night, no stated
controls of who will be monitoring us (qui custodiet etc.).
- Nothing (that I've seen) has been suggested to cope with illegal
vehicles. The police can't track down those without road tax at the
moment except by looking at each windscreen for the tax disc. When
the "tax" is collected by black box, anyone without a box will be
invisible ... real incentive to get one eh?
- Nothing (that I've seen) has been suggested to cope with visitors
from abroad. Do they get a box to carry round then leave on exit
(hoping that they are good, pay their bills and don't just dump the
box round the corner)? Do they simply get to travel free? (Incentive
to register your car abroad).

It's just another crappy scheme floated by a crappy government in
the hope that the public are too busy watching the latest episode
of Pop Idol or some such shit to notice that Big Brother (the real
one) has just arrived.

Nihil

[T_i_B]

27. But only in Central London

Central London has the best public transport in the whole of Britain. The rest of outside of the capital us don't have the Underground and don't have anything like the number of rail links London does.

Here is the thread about this in the UK forum BTW!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=191x5135

[truebrit71]

4. I suspect that this will die a quiet death...

..I think that there will be enough of an uproar about the GPS alone to make it go away....

[PsyOpsRunsOurCountry]

5. Misleading headline. s/b 'All drivers to be tracked by satellite.'

And Washington State had a bill to do this pending a while back which I suspect is why it is in the Seattle Times.

Prediction: This GPS tracking of US citizens will start in the areas with the most resistance to war, the West coast.

Excuse: Helping fill gasping state budgets.

[AndyTiedye]

6. To Track Everyone, AND to Get People Back into the Big Gas Guzzlers

since they are taxing mileage, not gas.

[MADem]

7. Puts new meaning to the term "On Yer Bike!!!" n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. I'd be for such a measure IF AND ONLY IF

the resulting revenues were used to

1) build urban transit systems

2) set up high-frequency bus and van routes in rural areas

3) create a world-class intercity passenger train system (in the UK, the train system has been wrecked by privatization, and ours has been starved for 30 years)

Like most conservative to neo-liberal governments, however, I suspect that the British govt. would follow through only with the unpleasant and punitive parts of the program and not with the constructive and beneficial parts. (cf. deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill, welfare reform, managed care, etc.)

But it's clear that no country can afford to keep adding more and more cars and drivers to the mess. Driving is growing far faster than population, thanks to urban sprawl and lack of alternatives. (I remember when most families had ONE car.)

Urban sprawl actually GENERATES traffic, because people are forced to drive everywhere to do anything. That's why you end up with 12 hours per day of congestion. It's not just people going to and from work--it's people going to lunch or delivering goods or taking their kids to Scouts or grocery shopping or traveling from point to point as part of their daily job routine.

If Western societies are not to come to a complete standstill when oil becomes unaffordable or unavailable, their governments should be planning NOW for alternatives to petroleum. East Asian governments are doing much better than we are.

[0007]

11. I walk three miles every morning and in the neighborhood that I walk

most families have three cars.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. That's right, one for daddy, one for mommy, and one for the teen(s)

This way of life not only leads to increased traffic, air pollution, and urban sprawl but also costs the individual family thousands of extra dollars per year.

I've sometimes wondered if the anti-tax sentiments in the suburbs aren't due to the fact that families are stretched to the limit paying for all those damned cars.

How much would they save getting rid of each extra car--$3,000, perhaps?

I have a "free" car--taken over from my mother--and with gas, insurance, and repairs, it costs over $1,000 extra per year, and I'm speaking as someone who fills the gas tank once a month. If I had to use the car for a typical suburban commute, I'd really be strapped.

[Mr.Green93]

9. Britons never

ever, ever shall be slaves........

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sweetheart]

14. That is a totally misleading headline

The truth reflects a most opposite concept.

The rates will vary between a very small rate of a couple of pence per
mile to the highest rate depending on whether roads are heavily
congested. This combines with an ending of the 350 dollars per year
car road tax, and an ending of the fuel tax that makes gas cost
over 5 dollars per gallon in the UK.

So already, UK drivers are paying even HIGHER. As rural roads will
be charged a much lower rate, this changes a regressive tax for a
progressive one (as rural areas are poorer areas in the uk).

The tax will also take in to account engine displacement, so that big
cars will pay an even heavier tax.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,2763,1502694,00.html

From the UK forum, a more informed discussion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=191&topic_id=5135&mesg_id=5135

[AngryAmish]

18. Ready for Year Zero?

Everybody, out of your cars!

[Daphne08]

20. I think this was proposed in California legislature, but

I don't remember exactly when.

Americans would fight this. I hope.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. Americans would fight this...

I'm afraid.

Probably within our lifetimes, the "hop into the car and drive two blocks to get a carton of milk" way of life is going to come to an end.

Either we prepare by building the infrastructure for non-automobile transportation and discouraging unnecessary driving or we continue living in our fools' paradise and end up in a Mad Max type of existence.

I fear that a nation where significant numbers of people voted for the Bushboy is too clueless and selfish to do what needs to be done.

[Geo55]

25. Zackly.....

as some of the posters represent the "it's my lifestyle" ....and haven't a clue as to just how exactly that gallon of dwindling cheap energy gets into their tanks.
Europe is set up "old style"...and is well positioned to weather the coming clusterfuck of the collapse of free flowing (relatively at this point) "cheap black gold"

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

[MrSlayer]

24. Insanity.

I hate those OnStar and other satellite tracking devices.