Obama Says Dean Using 'Religion to Divide'

[jsw_81]

Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) criticized Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean Wednesday night for using "religion to divide."

Obama told reporters gathered at the Rock the Vote awards dinner at the National Building Museum in Washington, D.C., that Dean needs to tone down his rhetoric. Dean said on Monday that the Republican Party was "pretty much a white, Christian party."

"As somebody who is a Christian myself, I don't like it when people use religion to divide, whether that is Republican or Democrat," Obama said. "I think in terms of his role as party spokesman, probably needs to be a little more careful and I suspect that is a message he is going to be getting from a number of us," Obama explained.

"We are at a time in our country's history that inclusive language is better than exclusive language," he added.

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1334704.html

[David Dunham]

1. Senate Dems to Dean: Zip It Shut, Doc

When Obama goes after Dean, you know Dean is in a real pickle.

[BlueEyedSon]

4. Obama is acting like a tool

[truebrit71]

8. Agreed....I'd like to know what happened to the man that made that great..

..speech at the DNC last year...because so far he has acted like a fully paid member of the DLC...and that is NOT what I supported...

[iamjoy]

85. Obama's Speech Was All About Inclusion

that was why it was so great and inspriring.

We worship an awesome God in the blue states.
We have gay friends in the red states.

How could you not think Obama would try to be a consensus builder? What in his speech was negative or attacking?

Dean's talk is divisive. You can say we need to be tough and fight and tell it like it is, but he is focusing on how we are different.

Senator Obama focuses on what we have in common.

[Skidmore]

119. How was Dean's talk divisive?

He was saying that there are more people in American than Christians.

[iamjoy]

195. Because It Wasn't Entirely Accurate

Do what you will with demographic statistics, the Republicans and media whores used this as an opportunity to showcase their party's diversity.

It seems like the approach Dean is using is "they are bad, we are good" - that's divisive, regardless of whether or not there is truth to it. Whether or not it is an effective strategy remains to be seen. I fear it is not. Most Americans do not seem to want more bickering.

[Frederik]

212. "they are bad, we are good"

Thats EXACTLY what the GOP has been saying for the last 10-15 years, and that's how they became the biggest party.

[iamjoy]

269. And That's Exactly Why The Country Is Divided

but, I see what you are saying "what's good for the goose..."

[stickdog]

288. But if our side would just play nice, we'll all sing Kumbaya?

Sorry, but Dems need to be proud Dems who fight for working people, not THIRD WAY all things to all people.

[stickdog]

287. It WAS entirely accurate. Repukes ARE pretty much white Christians.

Or hadn't you noticed?

[gtar100]

298. 82% isn't Accurate Enough for You?

The quote of Dean says "it's pretty much a white Christian party".

"In the wake of the controversy, a recent CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll found that 82 percent of Republicans identify themselves as “white Christians.’’ But the poll also found that a majority of Democrats, 57 percent, also consider themselves the same — as do two-thirds of all Americans."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/06/08/MNdean08.DTL">San Francisco Chronicle

Note the spin in the wording as if 57% is the same as 82%. Hardly!!

Dean states the obvious and everybody is up in arms about it. Frankly, the ones causing the divide in this country are the "white Christians".

Dean has made a clear distinction between the two parties and I like it. Obama is turning out to be just another suck-up-to-the-money politician.

[truebrit71]

127. Everyone is included. Except white "christian" republicans....

..they can go f**k themselves....twice...

[SleeplessinSoCal]

170. STOP!!!!!! Obama's words taken out of context.....

Those in here now criticizing Obama are doing so on only one tiny thing he said which was negative about Dean. He said much which was supportive and that wasn't in the article - of course.

Ed Schultz (who I don't much like) actually quoted all that Obama said which was very supportive of Dean.

[doublethink]

240. Exactly .....

The following image is still linked through the website that this story came from ...

and here is a quote as to who they are .......

Americans of Faith seeks to activate the voices of Evangelical Christians and religious conservatives in our country. Our goal is to have a profound impact on American society and culture. -snip-

here's that link .... http://www.americansoffaith.org/about_us/default.aspx

Looks like this story is intended to do exactly what most of the people in this thread are doing ... get into a cat fight among st ourselves. Who's being used as the tool here? Now Stop It !!! Like SleeplessinSoCal said !!! :) Peace.

[hector459]

250. Title of original post is way out of line and itself divisive. n/t

[Eloriel]

278. Well, that's nice, but why a BULLSHIT remark like this one at all?

It doesn't make sense to me, except if Obama is now doing the DC Dem's and DLC's bidding, carrying their water.

I'll say this: I'd been a tentative fan of Obama's. He's just nixed that, pretty much forever.

[ElectroPrincess]

238. Obama sees the $$$ and will forever more kiss up to corporations

while fawning over populism with meaningless rhetoric. Somebody tell him and the other COWARDS to STFU or change parties?!?

[Name removed]

276. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jahyarain]

282. sorry but got this far and had to stop

and say, he's got a point. Dean's words are divisive? did anyone see where this quote came from? did anyone see the o'reily LIE earlier today. you're letting them win

[stickdog]

289. We're sick to DEATH of Dems bashing Dems for bashing Repukes.

And you're welcome to fuck off anytime now if you can't handle that.

[Southsideirish]

24. He never was up to much - just a lot of sizzle but no steak.

Ex DLC'r. He "coulda" been a contender, too. what a shame.

[HuckleB]

86. The old Cult of Personality, I suppose.

Charisma without substance is one of the saddest sights to see.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

156. Interesting.

I don't know any Dean supporters who think he is perfect.

On the other hand, Dean bashers do a very good job of demonizing him with propaganda worthy of the most pervasive nonsense in history. Most of the criticism offered regarding Dean is laughable, partly because he hasn't said anything more outlandish than his predecessors did, nor than most of his current critics have done. The hypocrisy is quite amazing.

[HuckleB]

158. Dupe.

[TankLV]

192. Exactly my opinion - of OBAMA!

[Born Free]

222. Obama, The great Black hope..of the democratic party

All the talk about the first black president, this guy is turning out to be a real "let me down" , another Joe Lieberman

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

243. A bad politician usually doesn't get re-elected multiple times. nt/

MKJ

[chomskysright]

248. Dean's fucking pissed off and SO AM I.....

PISSED OFF

about fake election
about corporate bullshit
about government complicity w/ corporations.

PISSED OFF PISSED OFF PISSED OFF.

I'm not willing to place nice, to fold my hands and cooperate with people who are into moving chess pieces around.

GO PROGRESSIVE DEMS!!!!

[Cha]

261. You wake up.

[stickdog]

290. So who's your winners, then? Dems who bash Dems for bashing Repukes?

[BiggJawn]

36. Tool of the DLC.

Sounds like Jowly Joe or Evan Bayh (Eyeben Bauwt) doesn't he?

[underthedome]

62. Please, Deans the fool

He has given the GOP ammunition, he needs to learn to STFU and think before he speaks.

[William Seger]

70. Baloney! OBAMA has given the GOP ammunition!

Instead of looking at what Dean ACTUALLY said, in the context of the point he was ACTUALLY making, Obama reacted to the rightwing reaction. Obama put himself in the position of making the SAME POINT as Dean while handing the GOP spin machine a juicy turd to throw at Dean!

Sorry, but I think Obama is the one who needs to put more thought into what he's saying.

[iamjoy]

198. Dean Gave The Ammunition

Spare me the right wing media machine defense. Dr. Dean did not fall off of the turnip truck yesterday, he knows how politics work, he knows about spin. He said those things to provoke a reaction and he got it all right.

But Dean has a luxury most Democratic Senators, Governors and to a lesser extent Congressional Representatives in strong Democratic districts do not. Dean does not have to face a constituency of Republicans, moderates and independents. Dean does not have to go to work beside people he insulted (whether the insult had merit or not is irrevlevant).

So, say there is a bi-partisan bill in the works, one that is really good for the country, not just the Dems caving, and they don't distance themselves from these comments - it could cause negotiations to fall apart.

[Chicago Democrat]

229. They both are working together to get in the News!

Its brilliant.


be happy

[iamjoy]

270. Good Cop/Bad Cop You Mean

Not that I think Dean either of them are bad.
I actually see both sides.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

148. Dean's the fool?

:rofl:

[Nancy Waterman]

185. No! Senate Democrats have given the Repubs ammunition!!

They should back what Dean is saying in substance, just soften the language. All of it is true, it just needs so be said in a more diplomatic way. So instead of criticizing Dean, the Dems should rephrase what he is saying and totally sidestep whether they agree or disagree. This way they stay on message and keep it about the bad Repub policies. Currently, it has become all about Dean, which is what the Scumlicans want. Dean has given the Dems an opportunity to get lots of media coverage by his loose words. They could follow through with restating the issues, but instead they waste the spotlight and criticize Dean.

[Cha]

262. Dean knows exactly what he's doing and

I trust him to take on the repukes.

[leesa]

265. Bullshit! The appeasers like Obama are the ones doing the damage.

[MrTriumph]

274. Dem.s need to lay blame to Republicans- Go! Dean! Go!

It is about time we had a Harry Truman Democrat taking care of business.

[stickdog]

291. Dean's firing his ammo at Repukes. Meanwhile, your heros are firing theirs

at Democrats.

Fuck all Dems who bash other Dems for bashing Repukes. Am I clear?

[Patty Diana]

88. Obama playing right into the GOP divide and conquer tool

I'm so outraged I can't even think straight. This is a DLC move_the FASCIST wing of the deomacratic party. They're still pissed off that Dean won the chairmanship. Does anyone really think that Dean would have rolled over like Kerry did on the OH vote. Absolutely NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's why the GOP wnats him discredited, dismissed, disowned by the Democrats. If they knew they wouldn't get caught, they would Wellstone Dean

[okieinpain]

126. yep, in his busy little schedule all he's read is the drudge headline

sorry but obama blew it.

[leQ]

130. i'm with you patty, dean is exactly what we need

the ol'farts at the dlc haven't been successful with the way they've handled things, its time they move over and get out of our way. cuz we are coming through.

and the sooner they get on board this train, the better it'll be... for them, for us, and for America. the old democratic party is what the GOP has successfully killed off. the new democratic party will be something they won't have a chance knocking off. and i can't think of a better person to make that happen, than doctor howard dean.

[DrZeeLit]

142. You go, PattyDiana!!

I am right with you! I loved Obama's convention speech and had high hopes for him, but since his election... he's fallen into "their" hands one too many times. Even breakfast with * and ... YUCK...Rove.

A junior senator speaking out againt his own party's chairman... DAMN! I wanna say, or even shout... "Obama, baby, SHUT THE FUCK UP! Let Howie run with it!"

I wonder if Obama has paid any attention to how the right has used religion (i.e. evangelical Christianity) in EVERYTHING they do, say, print, and USE ... against liberals/dems/non-Christian religions. Sheesh...when the shoe fits....

I hope somebody slaps him upside the head for falling for the "outrage" of the RW and giving them fodder. Sheesh!

[MadisonProgressive]

189. A junior senator? HE'S A FRICKING FROSH!

[chicagojoe]

150. So many on both sides don't get what Obama is about.

This country can't go on forever playing us vs. them, on every little issue, without devouring everyone. Let's face it folks, whether you want to believe it or not, the VAST MAJORITY of people in this nation are just a couple of degrees left or right of center.
Both Neo-Cons AND Socialists/Communists are in the MINORITY, and ALWAYS WILL BE. I dislike Bush and his comrades very, very much, but I will NEVER become the left-side equivalent of those assholes, which is what I consider the far-left to be. It's people like Obama that are the future here. Sooner or later, the moderate Republicans will take back their party. Sooner or later, common sense will again run America.

[TankLV]

193. If he's the future, you can count me out - and MANY others!

[chicagojoe]

284. Why?

[leesa]

266. Obama is very weak and is no future for anyone.

[chicagojoe]

285. Please explain your statement, if you can.

[stickdog]

292. So you've seen the future and it's a fucking expensive empty suit spouting

vague platitudes about finding common ground and working together for a better future as our country careens off the cliff of hypercapitalistic labor exploitation and fullscale Latin Americanization at the hands of global corporations? Pray tell, does this future include any non-military jobs? Or the Bill of Rights?

[chomskysright]

249. FUCKING RIGHT Patty Diana: the 'usual suspects' would play like Kerry did.

re: the vote.

BUSH LOST THE ELECTION.

the stats prove it.

fucking A: GET PISSED OFF.

[sarcasmo]

235. My exact though before I opened the comments. What a TOOL.

[rooboy]

7. When Obama goes after Dean, you know Obama's sold out. n/t

[donsu]

16. that's what I was thinking too - somebody put money in his pocket

or he was a mole all along and now that he is in he is doing mole work.

[progressivebydesign]

214. No. It's the 'I'm going to run for prez' disease. All the Dems have it.

Makes them embarrassingly apologetic to the right wing haters. If we actually had SPINES then people would vote for us again.

[Justitia]

19. Especially since he took "Dean's Dozen" $$$$ hand over fist! -eom

[GoneOffShore]

227. Obama sold out

when he voted with the Repubs on the Bankruptcy Bill.
I had high hopes for the man and he blew it.
No respect for him when he sold out to the banking industry.

[stickdog]

293. Don't forget 100-0 for REAL ID. (nt)

[chicagojoe]

294. Obama DID NOT vote Yea on the Bankruptcy Bill !

Where did you get this info? Check the Senate record.
The Great State of Illinois has produced 2 of the best Senators, both Democrats. What has your State done for us?
SANTORUM- that's the disease your State has foisted upon America.

[jsw_81]

21. No kidding

My prediction is that Dean is gone by next month. Serious Democrats (Obama etc.) know that he's hurting the party and they won't let it continue especially as we get closer to '06.

[Justitia]

25. But he sure let Dean pimp him in his Senate bid, and took his $$$ too.

What the fuck kind of sellout does that make Obama?

[nolabels]

183. A double NO-NO sellout

It's the "I can use my trump card of my race of calling you out because you used the race card" B.S. Just sounds like so much standard procedure I sure Uncle Tom used this once or twice before. The Democratic Party is not the party that kept consistently making RACE the issue, but now that it is pointing that out that what's Republicans do somehow its not okay to point out that's what they do and have always done because it might hurt someones feelings.

Someone should point out to this fool a lot of people voted for him because they thought he was above all that.

The logic behind the thing is astounding, sort of like the Clarence Thomas in reverse. Someone should ask Obama if he also scared of his own shadow x(

To me the nomenclature "WHITE" is archaic, but since all these archaic people are so convinced that how world should run, handing it back to them only seems fair.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

149. oh yes serious democrats who know nothing but loss after loss.

Dean is hurting the party?

[LaurenG]

194. Never gonna happen

Dean is everything they've been missing. If Dean is dismissed I will help a third party come to fruition.

[candy331]

232. And I suspect it is about time to do so, you think maybe Dean knows it

has come to this and is out there so he can say he fought hard for the Dems but they love things the way they are.

[candy331]

231. Hurting what party, surely you don't mean the repugs

masquerading as Dems? Surely you know they have a snowball's chance in hell of winning with this go along to get along mentality. The Dems in power now could give less than a dam about anybody but themselves, they have sold out they have been bought. Ask yourself what have they done for you lately, supported bankruptcy bill, caved and gave us judges that make the devil look liberal, etc. Give em hell Dean and all those that care to help save the country.

[Cha]

267. Yeah, we'll be sure and hold

you to your "prediction".

[pokercat999]

37. Maybe time for a new party. Any grass roots organizers

feel the same way?

[Dr.Phool]

51. Feeling the same way

I'm a member of a DEC thats full of dixiecrats, who hate Howard Dean.

Some of them actually donated money to Repubs in the last election. These are the kind of Dems who are knocking Dean.

[pokercat999]

56. Exactly, those beholden to big biz.

Time to reorganize or clean house.

When this many repug-lites come after you it is a good bet you are speaking the truth.

[meppie-meppie not]

87. to me, you 2 here, are finally the voices of reason, TY!!

:toast:

[candy331]

233. Not an organizer but would love to hear more on one.n/t

[chomskysright]

251. the PROGRESSIVE DEMS are your party! : the shakers w/in Dem party:

check it out:


PDA Activists Spur Historic Call to Exit Iraq
by William Rivers Pitt
This past weekend, at the California State Democratic Party Convention in Los Angeles, the largest gathering of state-party Democrats in the nation, activists with Progressive Democrats of America led by PDA Executive Director Tim Carpenter successfully lobbied 2,000 delegates to pass a resolution calling for the termination of the occupation of Iraq. The resolution included specific language demanding the withdrawal of American troops from that country. "The California Democratic Party," reads the resolution in part, "calls for the termination of the occupation…of American troops in Iraq."

This victory is a powerful statement not only to the national Democratic Party but to the Republican administration and the majority in Congress.

Carpenter and his tireless crew spent the weekend working all corners of the convention to create a coalition of delegates large enough and strong enough to support the proposed resolution. Elements of the convention attempted to water down the language of the resolution, but the PDA activists successfully beat back the challenge. Meeting and overcoming this challenge was significant in and of itself, because it resoundingly demonstrated the ability of grassroots activism to overcome the go-along-to-get-along inertia of machine politics.

The resolution passed in California this weekend is more than mere words on a piece of paper. The document itself, along with the activism that created it, is a starting point, a blueprint for future action that must be taken in every state in the nation. PDA, with your help, intends to take the work from this weekend and duplicate it in legislature after legislature, until our combined voices carry our soldiers out of Iraq and home to their families.

Perhaps the most exciting aspect of this weekend in California was the emergence of so many new faces in the ranks of the PDA-inspired activism. Of the dozens of people who contributed to the effort that led to this resolution, most had never before been involved in this kind of political action. Carpenter and his crew shepherded them through the process, showed them how to get it done, and gave them the chance to be a part of positive history.

After the gavel came down and the resolution passed, most of the convention went their separate ways. Not so with the PDA activists, new and old, who met in a large gathering to strategize how to carry this great work to all points on the compass. They had completed their task for the weekend, but were not at all interested in stopping. Following this meeting, these activists committed themselves to convincing their own Congressional members to sign on to Rep. Lynn Woolsey's call to end the occupation.

To read Rep. Woolsey's call to end the occupation, please go here.

This is a victory to build on. If the energy and passion demonstrated by Tim Carpenter is any indication, if the energy and passion demonstrated by the activists who stood with him is any indication, if the effectiveness of PDA in overcoming all obstacles to achieve this victory is any indication, the winds of this action promise to blow great and necessary changes across this nation and the world.

---//---//---

The Resolution on IRAQ:

WHEREAS: The Bush Administration, using false intelligence estimates, misled the country into an illegal, unnecessary and unwise invasion and occupation of Iraq, against a country that had neither attacked nor posed an immediate threat to the United States, thus jeopardizing our national security; and

WHEREAS: As a result of that action, more than 1,500 American troops have been killed and more than 10,000 other brave Americans have been maimed or injured, and tens of thousands of Iraqis, including many innocent civilians, have also lost their lives, been injured, and seen their property and country’s infrastructure destroyed; and

WHEREAS: The invasion and occupation have created a severe burden on our economy, stretched the capacity of our armed forces including Reserve and National Guard troops who are serving unexpectedly long and difficult tours in Iraq, and continues to cause deep concern at home and abroad about the policies and intentions of the United States to the point where the United States is widely regarded with suspicion, hostility and distrust, and elections in Iraq confirmed that Iraqis wish the United States to withdraw

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED: That the California Democratic Party calls for termination of the occupation at the earliest possible time with the withdrawal of American troops, coupled with the creation of an international body that can assist the Iraqi people in freely and peacefully determining their own future, and that we participate in multi-lateral reconstruction.

Submitted by: 3rd AD Comm.; 5th AD Comm.; 13th AD Comm.; 16th AD Comm.; 18th AD Comm.; 21st AD Comm.; 27th AD Comm.; 28th AD Comm.; 33rd AD Comm.; 35th AD Comm.; 38th AD Comm.; 41st AD Comm.; 42nd AD Comm.; 45th AD Comm.; 68th AD Comm.; 69th AD Comm.; 4th AD Steering Comm.; City of Alameda Demo Club; Marin CCC; San Benito CCC; San Mateo CCC; Malibu Demo Club; West Orange Demo Club; Valley Dems United; Dem Club of Conejo Valley; Progressive Democrats of America & LA; DSCC members, Ruth Group; Progressive Demo;
Congresswoman Maxine Waters

[mazzarro]

64. That is totally NOT SO! Obama is the one that is a sellout!

eom

[meppie-meppie not]

89. he sure as hell is!!

:puke:

[MADem]

157. Dean is doing a very CLEVER thing

He is getting the RELIGIOUS HORSESHIT debate OUT there, well ahead of 06. It will be beaten to death between now and the midterm elections, and the whole religious bullshit factor will have jumped the shark before people go to the polls. They will not be able to use it this time, it will not play by the time the debate spins out, ad nauseum.

I love Howard--he motivated me to send a donation, and I made sure they knew why!

[chomskysright]

252. YES: beat the fundies w/ their own moral short-circuited reasoning:

SHORT CIRCUIT:

CANNOT think outside the domains of their 'religion': no critical thinking.

GO HOWARD DEAN

[katinmn]

178. Crosswalk is a fundie site. Let's not jump all over Obama just yet

They say:

"We believe that the Bible is God's written revelation to man and that it is verbally inspired, authoritative, and without error in the original manuscripts."

[Justitia]

187. I did not know that. Thank you for the info. -eom

[TankLV]

191. I've come to know that just because Obama is black and a dem,

that when he opens his pie hole, I'd rather he kept it shut.

Every time he opens his (ignorant) pie hole, he makes me like him less and less.

[candy331]

234. Why? I haven't heard very much of him at all n/t

[tavalon]

242. No you don't

Obama, great as he is, is a freshman Senator. Obama and all of the other Dems clamoring for their moment in front of the cameras should Zip It Shut!

[ckramer]

254. But who the F is obama?

He should be more humble than criticizing Howard Dean. How fast he forgot about where he came from?

It should the other way around:

Dean to Senate Dem - zip it shut, Mr. "new kid in the block"

[Cha]

260. Oh yeah, I'm sure Dean

is quaking in his boots.

[Triana]

2. I like Obama but...

..he needs to STFU like the rest of the whiney Dems. It is SOO NOT useful to shoot your own.

[acmavm]

3. Barack has made a bunch of statements that have certainly made me

sit up and go "Huh?".

[BlueEyedSon]

5. TOOL

[DemNoir]

20. Tool? more like fool

His remarks and those of other cowards like him do more damage than Dean could ever do

It is sad, but Democrats are a sickening bunch of weak losers and show no signs of changing.

[54anickel]

17. Ditto...eom

[MelissaB]

197. Me, too, and when I saw this on Raw Story I was more than a little pissed.

[MaryBear]

6. Obama should comment to Dean, not the Press!

What's with this? Splitting with accusations of splitting?

[MaryBear]

14. Then, again, maybe this allows

candidates to express themselves "correctly," while Dean says what needs to be said.

[WillyT]

145. I Think You May Be Onto Something...

I've been wondering if it's a 'good cop\bad cop' thing too.

Ole crazy Howard (bad cop) gets out there and tells it like it is, without pulling punches, then the elected official Dems (good cops) hover and cluck over how Howard needs to be more tolerant.

Dean gets the ugly truth out into the media, and as the folks running for (re)election give reaction comments to the media, they seem moderate, inclusive, and safe.

Just wonderin out loud here.

:shrug:

[Bill McBlueState]

9. I thought Obama was smarter than this.

Dean isn't using religion to divide. He's criticizing Republicans for using religion to divide. Well, Rush has his talking point for today now.

[HuckleB]

39. So did I.

I was wrong.

[wrate]

162. BINGO! n/t

[xultar]

10. .

:popcorn:

[jrthin]

11. Eff Obama and

all those lily-livered dems.

[OzarkDem]

12. All Dem leaders - zip it

Has it ever ocurred to our illustrious leaders that, if they have a difference with chairman Dean, they should discuss it with him privately, not in the national news media? Use the news media to bash Bush, not each other.

Pick up a phone and make a call.

[99Pancakes]

22. Exactly!

n/t

[rayofreason]

48. Did Obama call Dean?

Is it possible that Obama called Dean privately, expressed his concerns about the image of the Democractic party, got brushed off, then went public with this attack after the latest Dean comment?

I have no evidence to say that there were behind-the-scenes discussions, but no evidence that they did not occur either. The sudden rash of Democratic Senators openly bashing Dean makes me suspect that much, much more is going on out of public eyesight.

There's a whole lot of iceberg down there.

[Sherwood]

71. Self delete

Sorry...

[OzarkDem]

184. It should take something very serious

to justify one Dem leader criticizing another in the news media.

Very serious, very major, like treason or something.

Its up to us to get this message across to our leaders and make it stick.

Call each other, send an email, schedule a meeting. Going to the news media should be a last resort, not a first.

[Bread and Circus]

13. Personally, I'd like to see the demographics.

It would be fascinating no matter what the numbers. Anyone got a link?

[Sherwood]

Link here

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

[mzmolly]

75. Olbermann quoted a stat of 86% of Republicans meeting Dean's criteria.

AT least we have a vocal public discussion on this ey? ;)

[Justitia]

15. I'm calling Obama a rat bastard. He was a "Dean's Dozen" & got $$$

from me and plenty of others - ONLY because of THAT FACT.

His comments make me sick. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Dean put the nat'l spotlight on him, encouraged all of us to support him in his bid for the Senate and wrote in glowing terms about Barak Obama.

Now, Obama jumps on the "bash Dean bandwagon" in an effort to pander to those people who will never be our political compatriots, while cutting off his true supporters at the knees. Thanks for turning on the man who gave you what you needed to make it where you are today.

Fuck you Obama. I'll never make the mistake of supporting you again.
I'll remember you stepped on us on your climb up the "spineless wimp" ladder.

NEVER EVER AGAIN

[brentspeak]

27. So Obama should behave like he's bought-and-paid-for?

In other words, you want him to be like a Republican.

[Justitia]

35. How about a little respect for your supporters? Like remarks in private?

If he GENUINELY felt that way, had REAL concerns, couldn't he have talked to Dean in private? Instead of a public pile on?

Yeah, lots of conviction in those remarks I bet. :sarcasm:

[Southsideirish]

40. Oh Christ, a "goo'goo'r"! Ever hear of loyalty???

Maybe not, its what people with integrity have.

[HuckleB]

44. Huh?

He's acting like a Republican now. Dean points out that the GOP uses religion to divide, and Obama spins that and says that Dean is the divider. That's called acting like a Republican in my book.

:shrug:

[99Pancakes]

18. I agree with Obama and Edwards

That Dean needs to "pull back", but I wish that had been a private conversation. It makes me wince when I hear us airing our differences over the airwaves, TV news (entertainment shows, really), and "news"papers. I like that Dean is bold and unafraid to be a "true blue" democrat, but he is stepping over the line. Not that I care a twit about those Repukes, but for the advancement of our own party.......careful!

[RatRacer]

111. I'm with you

Dean engaged his mouth before his brain kicks in too often. It's one thing to be plain spoken. It's another to lack any tact or grace. Dean too often leans toward the latter.

As far as relaying this to Dean privately, yes that would be preferred. But then again, who's to say he didn't but was rebuffed or ignored by Dean's people? Perhaps Obama thought the comments were doing too much harm to the party to let them go without comment, especially if Dean isn't listening to him and others who feel the same way.

[stickdog]

295. We're SICK TO DEATH of Dems bashing Dems for bashing Repukes!

Fuck off, you assholes! If you want to get in paper like Dean, bash the fucking Repukes and make your own fucking headline!

[Dickie Flatt]

217. Agreed.

Keep it private. It looks like these Dems are more interested in grabbing headlines than in talking to Dean.

[Jersey Devil]

23. Oh boy, Senate Dems, the "bold ones" - NOT

The Senate "leadership" by the tutu wearing, gutless wonders that call themselves "Democratic leadership" is what got us into this mess in the first place. Instead of tiptoeing around trying to have it both ways if they had fought Bush on Iraq in the first place Kerry would be President and we would have a Democratic Senate.

Obama is quickly becoming one of the country club members. Add Obama to this pic:

[nine30]

26. Don't worry, Barak agrees with Dean 100 %

This was just rhetorical criticism for the benefit of moderate conservatives. Just yesterday Rush said that Dean's getting away with saying anything with absolutely no criticism from within the party,which must mean this is the mainstream view of the Dems. Barak took the cue and there we have it..."Dean using religion to divide".
But pay no attention to it.

[mazzarro]

67. Then f*** Obama multiple times over!

If he has to take his cue from the PIG boy! And there we have anothe spineless DINO in Obama.

[Tomee450]

172. Then he is being unprincipled.

"This was just rhetorical criticism for the benefit of moderate conservatives."

That's being unprincipled. I never thought much of Obama and now I have even less respect.

[digno dave]

28. Right on OBAMA!!!!

Dean needs to put a cork in it. Maybe he can get one out of his bat-o-meter.
Dean's comments aren't going to gain us any recruits, unfortunately.

[rocktivity]

29. If Obama doesn't like the use of religion to divide

better he should complain about the religious fanatic extremists who have divided the REPUBLICAN party from its real Christians!

:headbang:
rocknation

[KansDem]

46. Good point...

Where was Obama when:
1) Rove used the gay marriage "issue" to rally Good Christian™ Republicans to vote against "anything liberal, including Kerry?"

2) Good Christian™ ministers denounced Kerry by telling their pewsters to vote for Bush?

3) That Good Christian™ church in the South (the location escapes me at the moment) who expelled its Democratic members because they didn't support Bush...

These are only three such incidents (of the top of my head) when the GOP used religion "to divide." I'm certain there are many more...

When Obama spoke at the Democratic convention last year, I was impressed. But I haven't heard anything since to buoy that impression...

[realFedUp]

30. I think conservatives have the bully pulpit on that issue

Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, et al aren't exactly
Democrats or liberals and have made millions off
dividing Christians.

Republicans are dividers, not uniters.
(and the Doc can use that line anytime)

[depakid]

31. Dean made a mistake getting involved with these guys

He needs to find a graceful way out. The so called "Democratic leadership" is in many ways worse than the Republicans. These folks WILL NOT LEARN- they have no sense of loyalty- no integrity- and NO COURAGE to stand up for their principles.

Dean would do far better challenging them from the outside- because they're determined to be losers- and most of them are prepared to take everyone else down with them, so long as their little personal stars keep rising- and hauling in the corporate money....

[Southsideirish]

43. Agree 100%. I always thought it was a terrible mistake for him to

run for this thankless job. These wimp Democratic middle of the roaders make me sick.

[Justitia]

53. I still remember the GLOWING ltrs Dean wrote asking us to support

Obama both in $$$ and in spirit in his Senate bid.

He laid out his qualifications and richly illustrated his personal history.

Dean put himself out there with his own supporters, in asking them to support an unknown to most of us - Barak Obama - BEFORE opponent Ryan's sex scandal broke.

Thanks for the return of support from your DC office Senator! :mad:

What a coward to pile on Dean for phantom repub votes.

Jerk.

[Catt03]

139. or he could form a third party

Maybe it is about time. Dean could surely pull a few million votes from both parties, at the very least.

Clearly for years, Democrats in Washington have been out of touch with the base. And unfortunately they have no Karl Rove to handle the unpleasant stuff.

I thought they were finally beginning to fight back but obviously it is the same old thing.

[candy331]

237. depakid thank you, thank you, I said the same thing even before

Dean ran for Chairman. I just hope he can stay in there long enough to show up both sides for what they are- CORPORATE OWNED.

[cascadiance]

32. Obama started off great in the convention but has underwhelmed me since!

With his "toe the line" voting that do nothing to lead the party back to it's principles but fall into lockstep with the DLC path of destruction, each day he's becoming more disappointing to me.

As long as the extremists on the right keep getting a blank check to do and say what they want, I EXPECT folks like Dean to call them on it.

He wouldn't be saying anything false by saying that the KKK is also a "White, Christian organization" too. He does have to be careful not to make that extend to labeling everyone else that too, but as long as an organization continues to try and identify more with those characteristics and increasingly exclude the voices of others that don't have them, I think it's a fair characterization and criticism.

Now I grant folks that there may be many *older* Republicans that are white and Christian, but who don't feel that the party should be just about being white and Christian, but they need to wake up and smell the coffee that Dean's giving them that these characteristics are increasingly becoming exclusionary characteristics of being a part of that party. If they don't like that they should leave, not blame Dean for telling the truth.

The same goes for the Dems. Though ultimately we don't want to be negative to any ethnic race or religion, we still need to identify those that threaten our future and membership that are trying to divide us in this way. To ignore these issues and play "the old ways" of not being able to even talk about it lets those racist and other exclusionary viewpoints grow in strength!

Dems, stop killing the messenger! Listen to him and grow from his words! He's not telling you to be jerks. He's telling you what the enemy's becoming and how to see them for what they are!

Folks, keep donating more bucks in Dean's name to let him know he's doing the right thing! We need to do it now to let the Democratic party stay alive and become as strong as it once was.

[HuckleB]

41. Exactly.

He's a one-hit wonder at best.

This was stupid and hypocritical, and it feeds the misinformation-stream press' view.

Umm. Let's get real, Obama. Dean was pointing out that the GOP divides via religion. It's time to criticize the real dividers.

[jsw_81]

155. Obama a one-hit wonder? Utter nonsense.

Barack Obama is one of the finest individuals we have in our party. He's extremely intelligent (top of his class at Harvard Law) always articulate, well-informed and very, very shrewd.

And I have a feeling that someday Obama will, unlike the lackluster and foolish Howard Dean, be able to win the presidency by a solid, maybe even overwhelming margin.

If anyone's a one-hit wonder it's Dean. He'll be looking for a new job very shortly, count on it.

[HuckleB]

160. LOL!

Let's see. On the national scene, he's had one great speech, and nothing but blunder after blunder since.

That's a one-hit wonder. He was overrated, and he's certainly not very shrewd, at least not if he is actually trying to represent his constituency.

[jsw_81]

167. Oh please.

Obama's actions are only "blunders" if you're coming from a loopy left-wing perspective that is totally out of touch with mainstream America. Most Americans -- indeed most Democrats -- see him as a nothing short of a political superstar.

His remarkable convention speech was only the beginning of an extraordinary political career that will, I believe, result in his election to the presidency come 2012 or 2016.

Dean, on the other hand, is also known for a certain speech -- back in Iowa -- but unfortunately for him it derailed his campaign and turned him into a national joke. Not only will Dean never be president, but his term as DNC Chair is quickly coming to a humiliating end. One-hit wonder? That's our Howie!

[HuckleB]

169. LOL!

In other words, all you can do is label and spin. "Oh please," indeed.

You've got faith. I expect action. I've seen nothing thus far to predict action in the future. One speech doesn't make a career. Oh, and it doesn't break one either, no matter how hard the MSM tries to use it and distort it in order to do so.

I can only wonder about your motivation, by the way. By any objective standard, Dean has done a wonderful job thus far. Discussion is no longer being driven by the Republicans. He is outdoing his predecessors by leaps and bounds when it comes to fundraising.

In other words, if you are a Democrat, why do you want his term as chair to end? That just doesn't make sense.

[cascadiance]

181. Oh please, PLEASE!

Oh, a "political superstar" that voted against providing bankruptcy protection for his constituents that might have gotten racked with medical bills, etc., amonngst other things lately that have been more in tne interests of those the DLC servers (the CORPORATIONS!) than serving the interests of those who are SUPPOSED to be his constituents. As is the case with many of these other Dems that are scared to lose their funding because Dean is challenging them to look elsewhere. This is a power play and nothing more than that!

Had Dean not yelled, his constituents at the place of his speech who wouldn't have been able to hear him with his mike potted down (was that intentionally potted down? We don't really know, but I have my suspicions)!). They would have then said he was too meek and subdued with his loss because of him not speaking up enough into his mike.

Dean, like the rest of us here, are facing a battle of being squashed by this corporatocracy. Unless you wake up, you're going to get squashed too. They don't care for the rest of us, just rewarding the elites that use corporate personhood to mask their leashes on power.

Who created more division, Dean or Obama/Biden/Edwards, etc.? I would say the latter. There are incendiary comments every day about religion, etc. from both parties (look at the "Fristian Right" for Pete's sake). What made this an issue is that these Dems are unconstructively tearing down the leader of this party, who arguably represents the mainstream of who are Democrats. THAT is destructive and divisive, even if the DLC and their corporate brethren don't want you to think so. There's a reason that DNC picked Dean as it's chair, and they've still got to figure this out and come on board, or the Dems will be toast in 2006 and 2008 again! The guard MUST change for the Dems to return to winning again!

[bettyellen]

196. he denies that repubs are using religion to divide ?

he ain't no superstar. people had hope, and he's quashed it way before this.
so any talk about what's going on with religion in govt makes us "loopy lefties"?
honey, you ain't pushing me out of this tent anytime soon, and no we ain't about overlooking attempts to make this country a theocracy, even if it doesn't bother you. nice try though.

[AlGore-08.com]

220. "Most Americans... see him as nothing short of a political superstar"??

That must be why he's getting 2% in the Presidential polls right now, right? Because "most Americans - - indeed most Democrats - - see him as nothing short of a political superstar"?

:eyes:

[stickdog]

296. Exactly, Obama is being groomed to be another Third Way trojan horse.

When this country finally realizes what a mess the Repukes have made of everything, corporations will nominate Obama to preside over a period of kinder and gentler looting.

[bpilgrim]

104. he was PROMOTED by the INSIDERS out of NOWHERE

that always put a flag up for me... then there's his voting record since he got in and now he's publicly trashing dean and sending him a MSG via the media :puke:

peace

[hatrack]

33. And Republicans would never, NEVER do that . . .

Wake the fuck up and smell the burning coffee, honey!

[brentspeak]

34. Good for Obama

Dean is making himself the center of debate, and probably turning off fence-sitters everywhere.

[Kelvin Mace]

61. Screw the fencesitters!

This is war and we need people who live in the real world, not Vichy Democrats on their knees to the GOP.

[Dervill Crow]

132. Best subject line I've seen in this thread.

[jonnyblitz]

207. no shit. if they are still sitting on the fence after all that has

transpired , then fuck em.

[Kelvin Mace]

236. Anybody at this point who

doesn't know what the hell is going on should be slapped until sense arrives.

[Zodiak]

118. Please the center? The center has cost the party dearly.

Just a reminder that pandering to the center-lovers, moderates, and fence-sitters is a "winning" strategy promulgated only by the corporate media. I have seen absolutely no proof that this strategy works for Democrats....just an assurance that it is the ONLY way to conduct an election.

And I'm calling shenanngans on it.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

153. oh no we wouldn't want to offend the fencesitters

we should formulate our entire attack on pleasing the fencesitters. Guess what? Anybody who is a fencesitter at this point is a complete fucking moron.

[HuckleB]

38. What happened to Obama?

The Republicans have been using Religion to divide for years, with a vehemency that makes Dean's statement pale in comparison.

How about Obama starts criticizing the real culprits?

Sheesh.

[digno dave]

42. As Bush stumbles & mumbles Dean manages to deflect attention to himself

Dean has no sense of tact.

[ecoalex]

47. The DLC is what is

dividing the party, the elites; DLC against labor; DNC

[depakid]

63. The DLC is why we lose-

I don't think it's very difficult to understand- just look at the time series of events. DLC wins power in Washington- Dems begin slow inexhorable slide into irrelevance.

It's only been going on for what- 10 years and 6 elections now?

[cascadiance]

69. The DLC should be told to start their own party...

if they think most Americans want to support their corporate pandering agenda... See if they can get votes on their own without hijacking the Democratic Party. They would be nothing without sitting in the Democratic Party, but they are a cancerous parasite that is bringing us down! They need to be "excised"! Might need to cut away a lot of cancer-ridden tissue (some of these Dems that don't want to "see the light") in order to get rid of them, but it must be done if the Democratic Party is to survive!

[Norquist Nemesis]

45. Okay...First Point On This

Has anyone clicked on the link? That source has a banner in the upper right corner: "Christian Persecution, Learn the Truth. Sign up for Voice of the Martyrs monthly newsletter"

I invite everyone to go and take a look at that site and read the entire piece, please. The bias is evident from the get-go and this is just more fodder for the fundies.

That said...point two.

It's obvious a question was asked of him to provide a response. Where's the question? Without seeing the entire exchange, it's tough to make an informed decision on Obama's comments. But Obama is a smart politican. Taken solely as presented, I'd say Obama is pandering. That I do not like.

[cascadiance]

49. I view Dean's comments as a slightly less volatile version of what Ventura

said a number of years back about religion being "a crutch" for *all* Christians.

Jesse Ventura also had a good point to be made then too, but he probably didn't deliver it as effectively as he could. By saying it was a "crutch" for *all* Christians, he lost quite a few people by saying that, as many Christians still do think for themselves and are respectible folks. On the other hand, I do admire him to have the courage to come out and say what he did. He should have just tweaked it by saying "many" instead of "all". If Dean is tactful about how he says things, he can indicate that he's not indicting the white race in general (as he notes he's a member of), or all Christians (which he also notes he's a Christian as well). But that he's upset with the way many who do have these characteristics are trying to shut everyone else down.

We can help him "define" his message that way to make sure it gets heard properly, not get picky and throw out everything he says if he doesn't make it as clear as he should. Doing the latter is a loser's strategy and shows the underground DLC agenda is at work in this to basically cut off Dean at the knees, and in the process cut off most Dems at the knees instead of cutting their ties to the corporate coffers of the DLC.

[hippiechick]

50. bullshit

someone's got to do to them what they've been doing to us for the past 10 years.

[Baclava]

52. Hillary/Obama 08!

You knew it was coming...

[Jacobin]

58. Gack

[oneold1-4u]

54. Divide and conquer

He doesn't know how to say the best things any more than * but he isn't sent from god! He should have said: The republican party is pretty much a rich white christians party!
Those in the party who do not fall in that category might be given reason to ponder who they are as a republican. Republicans don't have enough without the "church going regulars" who WORK to have a home and family. They don't have enough if the children of these stop enlisting in the military! They don't have enough when those evangelists who love them, leave them for a larger pulpit!
When all they(the rep party) have is the rich white christian (who owns a camel small enough to go through the eye of a needle) they will change their ways because that won't be enough to create a monarchy or dictatorship!

[sunnybrook]

264. these people are "Christians?"

The mistake in Dean's statement is calling the nutwing evangelical fanatic repub base "Christian." This gives fuel to the idea that they are the party of Christianity which to a large portion of this country is an interchangable term with "morality." I happen to agree with his statement about white ultraconservative "so-called" Christians being the majority of their party. The point about rich Christians is a good one also. But too often the Democrats let Republicans control language such as they did with the utter destruction of the term "liberal." So now when many people hear Dean's statement who are perhaps not as thoughtful politically, will catch that he is calling the Republican party the "Christians." This has been the spin of the right and the media since the election, moral values blah, blah, blah.... I truly think Dean is great, but he has given them ammunition with this statement in more ways than one.

[followthemoney]

55. The repugs are the dividers, Dean just called them on it.

Too much tip toeing around this issue.

[Jacobin]

57. This is guy is a complete and utter moron

He does NOT get it.

DEMS using religion to divide?

gimme a fucking break.

What a fucking wanker.

Has he been in a cave the last five years?

[jonnyblitz]

59. Obama is turning out to be another establishment hack

Just like i assumed he would when everybody was swooning over him last year.

[derby378]

60. Hey, Obama - "White Christian" is pseudo-code

It implies a kinder, gentler form of racism exhibited by the target.

[The Stranger]

65. Kindly shut the fuck up, Obama.

We will all hang together, or we will all hang -- together.

[xchrom]

66. ok -- obama -- you think the religous right will vote for you?

when night becomes day -- and creationism is the accepted science.

[NNN0LHI]

79. Some of them did

He took the Senate seat in Illinois with 70% of the vote. Alan Keyes was too much even for them?

Don

[goclark]

68. I love Obama but

with all due respect, REPUBLICANS have been using religion,race,money and power to divide this country.

That is why they won the election.

They have successfully divided this country and the "WHITE RIGHT CHRISTIANS" know it and love it that way.

[Dervill Crow]

134. Back in my ignorant days,

I voted pretty much straight ticket republican, because that's what good Christians do. I was a lot younger and a bit naive then, but there are still people who honestly believe that democratic party is the tool of Satan.

More power to Dean for pointing out the simple fact that the republican party does not represent ALL Christians.

Edited to add: Not to mention that there are people of different faiths in the United States. What a concept.

[mzmolly]

72. Dean stated the truth, I'd like the stats that show Republicans are a

diverse party. Over 85% of Republicans are White Christians according to Keith Olbermann last night.

Why are Democrats afraid to tell the truth?

Republicans are divisive and exclusive, which was the point of Dean's comment.

It seems it's "cool" to trash Dean these days, and these egomaniacs are wanting their place in the sun.

BUSH USES RELIGION TO DIVIDE - Dean pointed that out - big frikken deal?

I like Obama, but this ooooh ooohhh look at ... me ... I think Dean sucks too, shit is pathetic.

[phasev]

122. sweeping generalizations

Dean was making sweeping generalizations. What he said was the equivalent of saying that all black people are on welfare.

[mzmolly]

133. No it wasn't. Is it now offensive to say someone is a white Christian?

Color me confused.

Also, he didn't say "all Republicans are racists" he said Republicans are predominantly white and christian. He told the truth.

It's not derogatory it's fact. And, he is a white christian so I don't get the scuttlebutt.

Wait, yes I do ... the media doesn't want to talk about the Downing Street Minutes - Dean it is!

[99Pancakes]

154. I agree

Why didn't Dean use a statistic like, "85% of Republicans are White Christians." ? If there's a fact one can't refute, then Repukes have no legs to stand on. Instead, Dean made a sweeping generalization that opened the door for the typical attack via the "news" (entertainment really--I use "news" ever so lightly these days).

[Dogmudgeon]

73. How is this bad? It's a blessing in a very skimpy disguise.

The more Dean and Obama are in the news -- even if they're "having a constructive dialog" -- the better it is for us.

The Media love conflict. Who better to give it to them than two Liberals who are among the best speakers we have for progressive values? If you notice, the disagreement is a minor point of language, if that.

Instead of two Conservatives splitting the difference, it's two Liberals. And about damned time, too. As far as I'm concerned, they can mix it up as much as they want (as long as they come together in time to elect Democrats and fire Republicans).

--p!

[confludemocrat]

81. What progressive values had Obama led the way on lately?

Just asking.

[Dogmudgeon]

131. Does it really matter?

If you're truly interested, you could look up his record with Google. If you're just being snarky, well, have your fun, but it's better directed toward Republicans, especially since this supposed defection has left the GOP out in the cold.

This little episode isn't about who we'll vote for -- it's about getting time and attention from the Press, which gives the Bush cabal more airtime than Michael Jackson, Paris Hilton, and the latest cute blonde murder victim combined. The tongues of the Press have been wagging for several days now since Dean made his minimally-nasty speech, and will continue to as long as Dean has "disagreements" with other Democrats. So if Dean and Jon Corzine, for example, want to argue about the merits of Iraq policy or their states' microbrews, fine with me.

There is no such thing as "Bad Attention"!

The Conservatives and the Media think Obama's damn near a revolutionary, and they derisively call him "The Great Black Hope". Do you think anyone except us politics junkies are going to care that he voted for this or didn't vote for that?

Considering the politeness Obama and Dean have shown each other, I don't consider this to be a slapdown -- it's a press stunt that's working well. It moves the "People of Faith" argument away from THEM and towards US. When THEY have the "dialog", THEY always make us look as bad as possible. When WE have the "dialog", we come away looking like leaders to BOTH sides.

"What? You mean the Democrats can be People of Faith™, too?"

I may (and actually do) disagree with Obama on this one, but it continues to keep the day-to-day happy talk about Our Courageous Commander and President to a bare minimum. If the Media want to talk Bush under these conditions, they're going to have to break through with something good -- like the Downing Street Memo/Minutes scandal.

Sometimes, what looks like "treason" is actually smart political theater. Which is why I encourage everyone to enjoy the show. We can tweak the platform and get the candidates in line at our leisure.

--p!

[confludemocrat]

171. Well yeah it matters.

I am aware of his record about a few things, the bankruptcy bill being one major disappointment. Look up and down this thread and see why his lack of solidarity with Deans honesty is yet another major disappointment.

And its not fun seeing Demos act this way and have to criticize them.

[Dogmudgeon]

182. Understandable

The Democrats are not exactly a "unified" party in the same way the Republicans are. I don't consider that to be a downside, but occasionally it gets my goat, as well. I only learned to tolerate Lieberman after he tripped Bush up several times between his installation and the mid-term elecion in '02. (And still hope one of his Democratic adversaries in CT wins the next primary. But right now, there's enough to do in PA to ejext Santorum.)

As for the bankruptcy bill, I thought he had voted against it. I will have to re-check.

A lot of what I've been reading here is just blind rage -- pent-up frustration. But in the last hour, the "Christian" Coalition checked in with many of its friends and cronies, and it looks like it's going to be pure hyperbole. It makes Obama look even better in comparison, but I'm still pleased that Dean is the one who is driving the news, not the other way around.

I still think there are too many teeth being gnashed when they could be smiling at how Dean has once again gotten the Commentariat to beg for his table scraps.

It will not be a clean or easy task to wrest control of the media from the GOP/Conservatives, but it can be done, and I believe that Dean has the brains and the guts to do the dirty work, need be. And that's why I don't see much harm coming from this. WE have the ball.

Let THEM worry about the mud and whether we're "playing fair."

--p!

[leftofthedial]

74. I've been more disappointed by Obama than any other Dem

I knew Salazar had a giant libertarian-Repuke streak running through his Dem ideals, but Obama has been a cipher.

Has he done or said anything laudatory?

[boohootwo]

76. He's right. Religion AND Race.

[KingOfLostSouls]

77. Didn't Obama vote FOR The Bankruptcy Bill??

if I remember right, he did

he sold out long ago.

[HuckleB]

94. Obama's got little substance, and this comment about Dean is ridiculous.

But he did vote against the Bankruptcy bill:
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:S2jjD287WHgJ:www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0312-03.htm+Obama+Bankruptcy+Bill&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[Justitia]

102. He's had a lot of BAD VOTES, which pains me as I supported him

in response to DEAN's request to do so - as a "Dean's Dozen".

I was as mesmerized as anyone by his speech at the Convention. I taped it and played it over and over again for friends and family.

What a disappointment AND a turncoat.

[LionInWinter]

121. Nope, he voted against the bill.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00044

This issue is my own personal litmus test for all of those Senate DINOs.

[confludemocrat]

78. Obama: A different kind of politician--NOT! But a WHORE.

An opportunist who waited until he could have the cover of other equally failed Democrats and then added to the attempt at piling on by these faint-hearted Demos like Richardson, another traitor to his people.

The deviousness of his words so smacks of opportunism it reeks. Dean criticizes the determined exclusivity (save the occasional token or figleaf or perverse inclusion of the worst minority outliers) of the Repubs and Obama ignores that key element and exploits the religious angle for the mileage he seems to think it could gain him. What a WHORE.

Dream on you loser, an act like that is not going to get you the white house. Courage will the kind Boxer, Kucinich, or Dean show.

[Ambrose]

97. Wow

Some of these comments sound like they should be on the freepers site. We cannot win if we are assaulting our own congress folk. Plain and simple.

Also, Kucinich will never get to the White House. He is not Presidential material. IMO.

[confludemocrat]

165. "We cannot win if we are assaulting..." add here: "Democrats with guts"

Yeah plain and simple that we cannot win if the fainthearted (like Obama) pile on opportunistically with the right wing echo chamber.

Obama has very low promise fulfilled/promise perceived quotient and dropping. Look up and down this thread at his already well-known failings.

How is this freeper-like, criticizing him for not being supportive enough of truthtelling about how fundamentally racist the Republican Party is? Get real.

[MaryBear]

281. Welcome, Ambrose!

I was thinking same, on review of thread.

DEAN is not running for anything.

OBAMA is more OK than not.

The REPUGS will manufacture issues even when there are none.

DEMS need to work together.

FREEPERS need to go home to their caves.

[Vinca]

80. If Democrats want to criticize Dean, I wish they would do it in private.

Pick up your cell, call the man and have it out. We've got to stop airing the dirty linen in public. Republicans figured this out a long time ago and we know how much dirty linen they've got.

[Ambrose]

82. I tend to agree with Obama

I also agree with Dean. The question is, does getting a dig at the republicans do anything positive for the democrats? I don't know the answer to that but I do know that Bill Clinton won by running some pretty positive and optomistic campaigns.

I would think at some point instead of continuing to whack at the republicans (which is easy but not needed if you look at recent polls) and start presenting our plans for the future. How are our leaders going to solve health care issues, the "war" on terrorism, etc. WE know what they think but the general electorate is easily persuaded by simple talk like "they are the party without ideas." It is stupid that people would fall for something like that when the republicans have no idea what they are doing...but it tends to take hold when we hear mostly about democrats complaining about republicans.

IMHO.

[HuckleB]

83. Some Perspective: Dean isn't the problem

Dean isn't the problem

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/06/09/dean_isnt_the_problem/
By Joan Vennochi, Globe Columnist  |  June 9, 2005

"DEMOCRATS ARE running against Howard Dean instead of George W. Bush and the GOP -- or, better yet, running for principles that matter to the country.

It makes little sense, unless the intent is to destroy what's left of their shell of a political party.

Dean, the head of the Democratic National Committee, is under attack by fellow Democrats who are allegedly upset at his partisan rhetoric. Critics such as Senators Joseph Biden of Delaware and former senator John Edwards of North Carolina are taking their shots at Dean, just as if they were sitting next to him during a debate in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, or Manchester, N.H. They sound like they are positioning themselves for a future presidential campaign rather than working together to rebuild a party with a message for the future.

How shocking: Dean said, ''I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for" and defined the political landscape as ''a struggle between good and evil." Is that any worse than the comment by Harry Reid, the Democrats' Senate leader, who said of Bush, ''I think this guy is a loser." (Reid later apologized.) Is it worse than Senator Hillary Clinton of New York saying: ''There has never been an administration, I don't believe, in our history more intent upon consolidating and abusing power to further their own agenda."

..."

[meppie-meppie not]

84. GARBAGE OBAMA!!!!

The Right has been painting Democrats as godless people for years so where was Obama talking about how the Right was/is using religion to divide? According to the Right we are "baby killers" and unpatriotic and this because we could see beyond the lies and believe in women having rights to their own bodies. The Right has been using exclusive language since their teeth parted and we are supposed to just play nice, roll over and beg for more? I applaud Dean for saying what needs to be said and giving the Right a bit of their own. It's time for us to start unequivocally supporting Dean and stop being tools for the MSM!!!!

[Ambrose]

92. We should be the party of inclusion

What Dean said was right, but has the effect of alienating religous voters away from the democrats. We shouldn't allow that to happen. We should want those who believe in various religions to support us, not point them towards our opponents.

I look upon Obama's comments as a follow up to his speech at the convention about we are the United States of America. I don't fault him for his words, and I don't fault Dean for his...I just don't know if it is productive.

[meppie-meppie not]

110. the "religious voters" were never drawn to us to be alienated away in

the first place, IMO. They want a party with no division between church and state so all the inclusive language in the world isn't going to bring the religious wing nuts our way. We believe in a separation of powers, a democracy not a theocracy which flies in the face of what "they" are after.

[Ambrose]

166. Partially agree

You will never be able to talk to the far right, they are a lost cause, but the more moderate folks are dying for someone to give them an alternative (I think).

Trust me, I know that the far right are hopeless. This last election caused me to loose all respect and contact with a family member who is a wingnut and a former friend from work.

However, we shouldn't become a party of haters as well. We should fight their horrible ideas but we should remember that most people don't agree with the Fristians, they just aren't seeing the alternative right now.

[ElectroPrincess]

241. No it doesn't, I admire Dean and fully support him ...

I'm also a devout practicing Catholic: I attend mass at least once but many times twice each week (during the year there's one or two exceptions if I'm sick or can't find a Church if I'm traveling); I volunteer for the Church's Outreach Program; and I'm also heavily involved in volunteer work for my child's Catholic School and serve on the board of the PTA.

I'm a liberal Christian Democrat who was NOT at all "put off" by Dean's statements.

Wake up folks! These gutless DLC lovers are also serving the multinational corporations before the people. They have hijacked my beloved Catholic (and other) faith and are holding the image of "Jesus" as hostage.

It's tragic how people of faith allow themselves to believe the right wing rhetoric. My view of the way I choose to practice my religion is much more sound when it does NOT mix with politics.

People who do their best each day (far from perfect) to live a life that is Christian (or Secular Humanist, etc.) do NOT have to discuss the particulars in the public square.

You practice your faith by good works NOT by preaching to the choir and attempting to convert others to your particular faith.

Dean is calling the Republican's smarmy tactics of FALSELY claiming to be "The Christian Party" while they bully people to either do things THEIR WAY or face the "INQUISITION" (intense scrutiny and criticism by the Republicans, Corporate Media, and yes, DINOs like Obama.

We need to take back the pride in the term Democrat, and rescue faith (of all varieties) away from the exclusive ownership of the Right Wing Christian Whites.

I respect Howard Dean ... even more than that: I'm a God Fearing Christian Liberal woman who fully supports Howard Dean.

People, this is NOT the time to be hypersensitive - we know what the point is.

[Barkley]

90. Howard Dean Speaks for Me! eom

[kamqute]

91. Anyone's opinion should be allowed public expression

Behind closed doors is not the ethical way to run any campaign affairs. That said, who cares what Dean said? He's right. By being a Christian party in the way he speaks, it excludes other groups, which tells you what type of Christianity we are talking about--an exclusivist and idiotic one. Even with that set aside, that can be construed as what animates the party, therefore it is simply descriptive. Being as the man is a white Christian, it sure seems to me he has license to sound a little derogatory with respects to those things. For Heaven's sake, if we want to criticize Dean, I have a long list I can contribute to that conversation. Why pick an image question that makes us look even stupider?

Edit: And Yes, Obama is a Republican tool

[Zorra]

93. No, Dean is stating the plain facts in a very simple way.

And naked truth and facts are things that the DLC and the republicans are totally afraid of.

[ecoalex]

98. Hillary/Obama '08

It might win, it would have corporate approval.

It would be very bad for the mainstream DNC people.

It would be bad for labor and civil rights.

[Ambrose]

99. As opposed to a Republican? (nt)

[meppie-meppie not]

112. no difference between the 2, IMO.

edited to add: Welcome to DU Ambrose!! :hi:

[Ambrose]

113. I completely disagree (with all due respect)

...and thanks!

[meppie-meppie not]

125. totally cool as we are an inclusive group

:)

[chomskysright]

273. THIS is fucked up if there was FUCKED UP

hILLAry cannot win the south; Obama cannot win the south.

ITS A LOSER'S TICKET.

[HuckleB]

95. This headline might say it all: Obama big on ceremonies

http://www.register-mail.com/stories/060505/MAI_B6K4EC0P.GID.shtml

[barb162]

96. Obama is really pissing me off and I voted for him

[Malikshah]

100. Dems to Obama: Get on board or join the heap of could've beens

When will folks realize that Truman had it spot on-- You bring the battle. You act. If you only react, you lose.

[Malva Zebrina]

101. I have news for you Mr. Obama

You, and no one like you, is ever going to turn the right winged religious extremists over to your side of the aisle and especially not by kissing their ass and driving sincere Democrats to that middle. All you will see is the Democrats moving toward the middle, while those religious extremists laugh at them. It is weak--incredibly weak. People will perceive NO difference. As it is now, people cannot quite place their finger on what Democrats actually stand for. It is the fault of people like you who are scared for their seats in the high and mighty Senate, that do not want to make waves--especially on the hot topics of the day. Perhaps you can join some others on that pedestal and work toward getting school kids pencils or something like that.

These are not religious people--these are political animals, Obama. They are the ones, Mr. Obama, who willfully, purposefully , with malice and with lots and lots of money and lots and lots of lobbying who have divided this country with their stated goal of theorcratic rule . It is not Howard Dean doing so.

[AzDar]

103. AzDar says Obama should STFU.....never understood why he was so

highly regarded, anyway!
I notice a lot of this Dean criticism is coming from Dem Congressfolk;
they've been concentrating so hard on "playing nice, and bending over"
for the Repub majority, that they seem pissed when someone actually rocks the boat (ie: tells the truth)...something they've forgotten how to do, obviously.

[jonnyblitz]

205. me either. i always thought he was rather bland and typical. nt

[hiphopnation]

105. totally

surprised by Obama's weak-kneed approach in the Senate so far. Where the hell was he during the fillibuster fight? I know he's a juniour, but hell...guess he was too busy posing for magaizine covers

Smells like repuke lite, talks like repuke lite, spins like repuke lite...call a spade a spade, folks.

[Stuckinthebush]

106. Now, why is it that I should like Obama?

I thought he was going to be different. I thought he was going to bring a new perspective the the Dems.

I guess same old, same old.

[Patty Diana]

107. List of all Congressional Democrats who Dean Outraged

ALL these dangerous Democrats also vote with the GOP more often than not. What the hell kind of a vote is it when they say----well the GOP had the votes anyway so I went along. we ought to votes them all out of office since they are incapable of thinking for themselves or their constituents.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Julius Civitatus]

109. This is the DLC opportunity to bitch and moan about Dean

The blue dems or DLC were pretty upset that Dean became the chair of the Party. They've been looking for an opportunity to trash him, and this one, courtesy of Fox News, is what they needed.

Notice all the assholes trashing Dean are DLC or conservative Democrats. They had it for Dean.

Imho, they should shut the f*ck up and get with the program

[OETKB]

114. Shining the light in dark places

I spoke to or rather was spoken to by a conservative colleague today who said, "not to start an argument" but Dean has damaged the Democratic Party by his last outbursts. As a Republican he then told me he liked Joe Biden and saw him as "moderate" in his views. He then went on to tell me he was not happy about the war in Iraq, the economy, the state of health care.

So the only elements being affected by Dr. Dean's frank talk, always out of full context, are those entrenched people who look on change and examining our societal structure as taboo.

We have nothing to fear in Dr. Dean's words. It only makes visible those who are your friends and those who are not. Does anyone here think the good doctor was denigrating his own religion? He was talking about diversity and tolerance, something sorely lacking in Republicans. This is what we need to emphasize. Must we always eat our own.

Further the Republican's work ethic he was referring to are those individuals of inherited wealth who have a stranglehold on their party and are running it using their neocon ideology, ala the Heritage Foundation(how does that place continue to run even though it is in the red on its expenses?).

Stiff upper lip everybody. The smell of real freedom, the freedom from harm, is what is at real stake here. I would rather say it wrong and be right, than say it right and be wrong. You can quote me on that.

[PassingFair]

247. and I certainly will!

Splendid post, OETKB!

[woosh]

115. Like I needed another reason not to like Obama

outside his senate voting record.

[Behind the Aegis]

116. Typical!

Yet another Democrat attacks Dean in public. Do these assholes learn NOTHING from the Rethugs?! If the Rethugs can still support DeLay in public, after all the shit he has pulled and said, then the Dems should be able to support OUR own in public!!! Where was Obama when the Rethugs attacked using religion? **crickets chirping**

Hey, Obama, YOU shut the FUCK up! Got an issue with Dean, use the PHONE not the PRESS, you asshole!

[BooScout]

117. Obama needs to sit down and shut up. n/t

[Charles19]

120. Dean was making the point that the Repubs were a

1 religion party.

That Dem's are inclusive to many different groups. Way to completely miss the point Obama.

Many top Dem's are stuck in the mode of trying to make everyone happy and in doing so they are making no one happy.

Repug's jumped ship and are only trying to make their base happy and now control all branches of government.

I am not saying Dem's should only make their base happy, but they should at _least_ make their base happy, then worry about the rest.

[arikara]

123. The dems attack each other FAR more than they attack the repukes

Most of them never say boo to the excesses of the wingnuts. Let a dem have the gumption to try speaking out with a bit of the truth and there is always a dem attack dog to go out and beat their own for the crime of making waves.

The repukes don't do that, they're far more disciplined. Dems need to stick together so that they can beat off those nuts that are in power. At least thats what it looks like from up here in Canada.

[Lori Price CLG]

124. F*ck Obama - another *useless* Dem. He should do what Joe

LieberBush should do: become a moderate Republican.

Lori Price

[getmeouttahere]

128. Sorry folks, but the country is already divided....

by both religion AND politics, because BushCo is a faith-based governance, and if you support BushCo, you support that brand of governance, like it or not. If these people didn't insist on imposing their beliefs, through legislation, on the rest of us, the country wouldn't be divided. In other words, it isn't going to make a damn bit of difference what Dean or anyone else says. It's faith-based vs secular governance, and that's what divides us. Now obviously Obama is someone who can separate his faith from his politics. But the current admin can't.

[chopper]

129. chopper Says Obama Using 'Dean to Divide'

the dems.

dean was workin' here. trying to put the goopers on the defensive, making them have to whip up some sort of reply. either they'd have to admit that yes, they are the christian party, or deny it and send their right-wing base into meltdown.

but no, obama and lieberman gotta do the political equivalent of 'cockblocking' (sorry for the crappy term, but it fits).

thanks, obama. you have a future in the republican party.

sheesh.

[Massachusetts]

135. "Obama Says Dean Using 'Religion to Divide'"

Obama is a ROOKIE let the Big Leaguer play the game, just sit on the bench and watch.

Dean is trying to get the BLUE Collar VOTERS to understand that the Republican Party is not going to HELP them.

GO HOWARD DEAN! at least he has had the balls to speak out against the entrenched bought off politicians (both dem and repub), that we HIRED to run OUR country!!!!!!

[Rainscents]

136. Obama.. Why don't you just go over to Republican side and call

your self republican... Democrats don't need people like you! Obama... you need to STFU!!!

[lateo]

137. Time for Obama to STFU

I'm already sick of him.

[Gloria]

138. Obama a big disappointment so far for me....

How are his 3 books coming along??

[Danieljay]

140. The Dems need to get their act together and actually talk

about what the other is doing. Its called strategy and the Dems just ain't got it. In addition to Dean being taken out of context we don't need other democrats criticizing him based on media soundbites. For effs sake...get it together Dems. I've just about had it with the democratic party all together.

[mondo joe]

141. Boo for Obama who misses the point: the GOP is a CHRISTIAN party

but the Dems are a POLITICAL party that includes people of all faiths and no faith.

[Cocoa]

143. I love both Obama and Dean

I think Obama's right here, and I predict Dean will agree.

:bounce:

[SleeplessinSoCal]

188. Love this kind of thinking. Thanks.

[killbotfactory]

144. bizarro world

where truth is "over the top"

[The Blue Knight]

146. I agree with Obama.

I think he hit the nail on the head. Dean is the one who needs to learn to STFU sometimes.

[killbotfactory]

202. It's a stastical fact that the GOP is mainly comprised of white christians

and a fact that they are pursueing a conservative christian agenda and aren't very diverse. He didn't say anything was wrong with that. Why the hell is this such an issue with people?

[LaurenG]

147. Oh My Goodness

Dean didn't start this the right did (the bastards). I am behind Dean so closely that I could be a Siamese twin on this. What are the other Dem's thinking. Let Dean be Dean, he's so good at telling it like it is. He is turning the God issue right back on them. The man has a plan. Thank you Dr Dean!

Edited for a darn spelling error

[dave29]

151. Obama, religion in and of itself is a divider.

Hate to break it to you. Dean was making a statement of fact.

[David Zephyr]

159. How Coincidental: Susan Estrich Was Touting Obama on Fox to Replace Dean

Susan Estrich, one of Roger Ailes phony Democrats, was just last night touting Obama as a "great replacement" for Howard Dean as Chair.

Looks like the DLC is once again showing their cavity filled, rotten teeth...which are not capable of even biting anymore.

And Susan is as phony of a Democrat as there is anymore. Ailes rescued her from oblivion to fill with his other phony "Democrats" like Mort Kondracke and Alan Colmes and Zel Miller.

Susan attacks Dean on Fox last night and suggests Obama replace him as Party Chair.

Obama attack Dean the following morning.

Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Missy Vixen]

161. Senator Obama, Howard Dean was just fine with you

as long as he spelled your name correctly on those checks from Democracy for America during the campaign, wasn't he?

I called his office this very morning and said the above to one of Obama's staffers. I don't think she appreciated it.

Julie

[derby378]

163. My letter to Senator Obama

Dear Senator Obama:

Please, please, please, lay off of Howard Dean. You're not helping your cause or that of the Democrats in general with your recent comments about him.

I chose "Media/Telecommunications" as my subject because your Web site doesn't offer a "Democratic Party" option, but my choice still fits because the media is taking your comments as an opportunity to paint the Democrats as being divided amongst themselves - and for the most trivial of reasons.

All this time, we wanted a Democratic President who would stand up to the neo-con Republicans, put them on the defensive, and advance progressive policies to benefit all Americans. If we can't have a President who will do that, we'll settle for a DNC Chair. And now that we actually have one who does that, some Democrats are criticizing him for telling it like it is.

"White Christian" in this context is actually code for "white racialist." Dean's label is right on the mark here - there is a subtle racism being pushed by many on the Far Right who now control the Republican Party. We need to get this out in the open as often as possible.

Barack, I'm not saying that you should never criticize Dean, but if you're going to, let it be for something that actually has substance. Don't fall for the siren song of the DLC - that way lies madness. Not to mention defeat in 2006.

Thank you, and please do the right thing.

[confludemocrat]

177. One thing

"there is a subtle racism being pushed by many on the Far Right who now control the Republican Party"

Good letter, but would say that this racism is not at all subtle, it's "subtle in plain sight", but is rarely focused on by the media even though it has been going on most obviously since Nixon as a Repub strategy.

[daleo]

164. But that's religion's main function

using "religion to divide."

[David Zephyr]

174. Ha! Ain't that the truth!

:thumbsup:

[Ambrose]

168. One last comment while it's on my mind...

A lot of the stuff in this topic is referring to how Obama attacked Dean. Maybe I'm a little dense, but I after reading the article three times I don't see where it is an attack. It seems more like a bit of constructive criticism to me.

I also wonder if Obama was responding to a question rather than just making a public offering of his opinion.

In the final analysis though, both are right. I like both of them and this is just another example of republicans whining like the cry babies they are.

[confludemocrat]

173. See post #141, sums it up

Obama has been largely silent on alot of things but he chooses to criticize Dean now, after other Democrat-lite types have. He DID ATTACK Dean accusing him of "using religion to divide". That's unequivocally an attack. Has Obama denied or clarified this characterization of his statement? Don't think so.

Obama has not done enough to earn the right to go after Dean like he did without getting heavy flack about it.

[Dr Fate]

175. Ed played his whole interview. he said lots of good things about Dean too.

n/t

[katinmn]

176. The source (Crosswalk) of this is a Christian fundie group

Let's not get TOO excitted about the way they portrayed Obama's comments.

"We believe that the Bible is God's written revelation to man and that it is verbally inspired, authoritative, and without error in the original manuscripts."

[confludemocrat]

179. Then Obama should set the record straight. Has he? (n/t)

[katinmn]

180. CNS News is kinda biased. I don't trust them.

[doublethink]

200. Exactly they still have this link on their site ......

http://www.americansoffaith.org/ if you people would just look around at this blog, this article was written to do just what you people are falling for. Divide and Conquer us on this from within. Don't fall for it. This is a Conservative Right Wing Propaganda assault .... wake up. peace. :)

[katinmn]

219. Thanks! Now, this is a telling image from the website:

Operation: Vote Be the Voice of Freedom:wtf:

[doublethink]

246. Thanks for putting that image in here .....

I re-posted it waaaaayyyyy up there in post #240 at the beginning of this thread so maybe a few other people would see it before having to get this far to say :wtf: ..... Peace. :)

[katinmn]

257. Good idea!

high five to ya. :hi:

[anitar1]

186. Obama is a one shot guy, IMO.

I was amazed at how many were ready to fall down and worship, based on one speech. He has shown nothing but agreement with Pugs, for the most part. I would never vote for this guy. Sad that he has turned out to be such a double dealer. On top of that he is a NEW Senator. He is allowing himself to be used by the right.

[RelativelyJones]

190. Color me unimpressed.

Obama has seemed all-too-willing to ride the worshipful media gravy train from the get-go. Not saying he's a bad guy, just that until now he's done nothing to merit the high hopes. Looking more like Bill Bradley every day.

[rucky]

199. Has Sen. Obama EVER accused the GOP of the same?? n/t

[swag]

201. Do Roberta Combs and Barack Obama share wordsmiths as well

as an "awesome god?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3821380

[nickshepDEM]

203. Obama is right... I don't understand why you guys are sticking up

for Dean on this one. His comments were dumb, idiotic, and uncalled for.

I knew I should have backed Rosenberg for DNC chair.

[screembloodymurder]

208. YSFA!

Dean is right. Obama should keep his mouth shut. If you want a party beholding to the powers that be, keep backing the DNC.

[nickshepDEM]

210. I want a party that is respected and trusted everywhere...

Not just in Manhattan and San Francisco. Dean's gaffes aren't going to get us there.

[PassingFair]

253. Yea!

You and those 25 other guys could have kicked ass.

[MelissaB]

204. This pissed me off so much that when the DNC called just now I signed up

for their new grassroots program. They are trying to get people to sign up to donate $$ on a monthly basis. I did it!! It's not a lot, but it's a message.

[Joanne98]

206. I just sent him the "Howard Dean will fuck your shit up" rant LOL

[Chicago Democrat]

209. WRITE TO OBAMA,.,, Here's my letter

Dear Senator Obama,

The Republican Party is trying to be a white Christian Party, but we wont let them! Dr. Dean has a valid point. We need to be able to talk about the Coopting of Religion by the GOP. That at the same time talk about the Christian basis of basic Democrat policies of Social Security. Even tho they talk all Christian, they are such hipocrits, since when is starting a war based on lies Christian? So Dr Dean, overstated something and now both of you are in the news, GOOD JOB, keep it nuanced.



Write to OBAMA


http://www.senate.gov/

[chomskysright]

271. here a letter from a yeller dog democrat: (can you say Huey P. Long)

Dear Senator Obama:

Please know that even 'yeller dog Democrats' are behind Howard Dean re: speaking frankly re: white Christian males running the Republican party.

We don't like minced words: indeed, we are very very very very tired of this kind of baloney.

Let's hear about what you think is good for the country.

We're intelligent voters and do not need to see you pandering to the press.

We do not need to see you as John Kerry----who somehow along the way seems to have lost his activist soul----between the Vietnam War era and his run for president.

Please do not do us this diservice.

[chomskysright]

272. goooooo YELLER DOG DEMOCRATS!!!!!!!

[Frederik]

211. Oh baloney

Geez, Dean said the GOP was less diverse than the Democratic party, he didn't say "Christians suck". Some people want to misunderstand this.

[progressivebydesign]

213. Um.. it's the REPUBLICANS that use it to divide.

Geez. what is wrong with Democrats??? Oh ya.. they ALL want to run for PRESIDENT!!!

[mbperrin]

215. I guess Cheney used

"Go fuck yourself" to promote togetherness, right?

[Dickie Flatt]

216. I liked him a lot more before he came to the Senate

[Onlooker]

218. Republican politicians would "clarify" Dean's remarks (if he was a Repub)

Democratic politicians criticize them. Republican politicians would defend Dean, Democratic politicians attack him. Republican politicians would accuse the media of bias. Democratic politicians get defensive. Republican politicians are politically smart and united. Democratic politicians are ...

[IndianaGreen]

221. Notice to Obama: We are already divided because of religion!

Those in power are the Christian version of the Taleban. They want to turn the US into a theocracy. Why don't you attack them, Obama?

[EndElectoral]

223. Screw Obama....He's good looking, but coming up as an A-kisser

[PATRICK]

224. Crosswalk article by MORAN-o

This is a fairly RW rag on its face with an articvle blaming the media for the sscopes Monkey trial, retroactive smoke-blowing.

That explains the slightly different context and choice of the Obama quote. Another LBN posting quoted the Moonie Times that was more stripped bare. Both led with generous excerpts of all the red flag Dean words out of context.

You are breathing the bad guys' worst smoke. It ain't healthy. Clean that up first.

[DC Law]

225. Obama is right on,

and these most recent of his comments only increase my admiration for this *true* uniter. If you can't see how Dean's remarks are patently divisive and unproductive, then you are truly blinded by ideology and no better than the most fanatical neoconservative. Period.

[PATRICK]

226. Wow you even have

a Foggy Bottom lawyer profile! Now that's chutzpah.

[Emillereid]

228. I used to have hope in Obama -- but he's just another wussy dem!

Dean is just telling it like it is!

And some of Obama's votes have been awful -- I expected so much more.

[manly]

230. Obama is two-faced

As much as I would like to, I just can't trust this guy, Obama. I believe he is duplicitous and does not have the courage of his convictions, he says one thing then votes the other way, and his comments about Dean did service to the Republican swine. If he really feels that way, let him tell Dean, man to man, but not in the press. That did us no good.

[Placebo]

239. I'm Proud To Have Voted For Obama!

He's a fine spokesman for our state, and I agree with him 100% :) :thumbsup:

[Generator]

244. Could yah get any more ironic Obama?

Yeah it's the DEMS using religion. Inclusive language. I got a word for yah right here:

Impeachment.

Inclusive enough for ya?

You haven't a clue what you are up against apparently.

The Repugs want to make this country the American Taliban while destroying the constitition, raping our civil liberties and enriching themselves and only themselves in the most un-Christian way possible.

It ain't about WORDS ANYMORE.

History's moving ahead, baby 'tis a pit your a freshman senator and all that but history is calling now. It's not 1982!!!!!!!!!!! Or 1992. We need someone real that isn't afraid to speak the truth. Whether that's John Conyers or Howard Dean. Neither is pretty and maybe their words aren't either.

Your pretty, you gave a good speech, your parents suffered. But the time is now. You are on the appeasment train and it's not headed to the promised land.

[ElectroPrincess]

255. I copy that message - well conveyed. Let's move forward :-) /eom

[halobeam]

245. See post 240....

works for me.

[bling bling]

256. The Dems always seem to find their spine to criticize other Dems.

It's a joke.

I love Obama but Dean's the guy who represents me right now. He's speaking the truth (out in the open), calling out the Repubs on their bullshit, and not backing down.

Sometimes it feels like most of the other Dems only care about what the undecided and republican voters think. They speak to the republican audience and say the things they think the repubs want to hear. It makes dems like me feel like we're in this alone without any leaders.

The more I hear from Dean, the more I know he's the best thing that's happened to the Dem Party in years.

[truthisfreedom]

258. Obama is right. Dean is right. different reasons, though.

Barack is right for standing up for inclusion, a dramatic difference between the Democratic Party and the thugs. Dean is right for pointing out the way the thugs are defining themselves, and drawing enough attention to get into the MSM on a regular basis.

people, it's alright for them to disagree. they aren't voting on anything. Dean is not weakened by this, and Barak is not two-faced. Everything about this is good for the Party. the thugs are falling all over themselves pointing out a "fissure" in our party, but it's not at all... it's nothing but a controversy engineered to keep us in the news, reminding the thugs of what they are, and what their leadership stands for.

[K-W]

259. Obama is too politically correct for my tastes.

Lets keep pretending that we are the party of the people when in fact we parrot the views of one of the most clueless groups of people in the world, moderate conservatives.

[leesa]

263. Obama is a waste of space.

[Festivito]

268. Perhaps Obama answered Dean AS Bush/Blair answered DSMemo.

...that is, by changing the subject.

First quote is fine, think of it as about Republicans OR Democrats:
"As somebody who is a Christian myself, I don't like it when people use religion to divide, whether that is Republican or Democrat,"

Second quote is fine, think of it as saying Dean needs to be more careful THAN CONS (not Dean in the future):
Obama said. "I think in terms of his role as party spokesman, (They say "Dean", could be a CON) probably needs to be a little more careful (Than CONS!)and I suspect that is a message he is going to be getting from a number of us," Obama explained. And, yes, we do have to outhink them -- not that outhinking them should be too hard.

Third quote is fine, it certainly is true:
"We are at a time in our country's history that inclusive language is better than exclusive language," he added.

Dean's quote is true:
There are zero Republican african-americans in the House, ZERO out of 231 Republicans. 42 out of fewer Democrats. (42/202)

Republicans are pretty much a white-Christian party. I think it should be hyphenated, and said. And, Obama can tell CONs to quit dividing US anytime he wants.

[Doremus]

275. Great, just effing great

A little over a year until the midterms and the party is STILL eating itself.

Oh yes, Obama, publicly agree with the repukes AGAINST your own party leader. Why, it's a hallowed Democratic tradition to give the opposition as much to ridicule as possible. I mean, what kind of a Democrat would you be if you didn't break ranks at every possible opportunity?

The Joes couldn't have done a finer job. :sarcasm: :puke:

[Name removed]

277. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jsw_81]

280. The only one who's fucked is Howard Dean

Senator Obama is well on his way to the Oval Office. Mad Howie's going back to Burlington.

[sendero]

297. I don't think so..

.... we'll just have to wait and see.

[Oreegone]

279. The World has gone mad

Since when did anyone saying "pretty much a white, Christian party." cause so much discussion. This is hardly worth mentioning. It is right on the CNN site listed above in this thread and shhhhuuuuureee nuff it is true. Most Republicans are white and Christian....how dare anyone say such a thing...I think we are all about to have tea with the Mad Hatter... Wow, don't go and speak the truth to the American people. This is damn near as newsworthy as there is sugar in sodapop....OH God....can it be true????....Any Democrats in politics who responded to this didn't read what he said and are running around responding to anything the Republicans show disgust about. It is part of the stupidity that cost us the election...milktoasties, backing up the centrists.

Time for change my friends, get spines, be willing to freely admit to yourselves and the world,,,yes Republicans are mostly white Christians....it won't even hurt, you can do it....

[anotherdrew]

283. It would be nice to see Obama say that about Republicans

I mean, think he could make the case that maybe a segment (almost exclusivly replublican) of christians are being just a we bit divisive in their instance to legislate their dogma into law. Could he try to get some headlines that way maybe? Or does he think thats cool?

[stickdog]

286. Does Obama understand English? What is "exclusive" about anything

Dean said other than the Republican Party membership?

[Moderator]

299. locking

Discussion has ceased to be productive.