Minutemen’ gear up for mainstream movement

[RedEarth]

WASHINGTON - Volunteers in the civilian-led border watch group known as the “Minuteman Project” are called vigilantes, or worse, by their critics -- patriots or heroes by their supporters. Regardless of the moniker, the Minutemen have driven the issue of illegal immigration from the margins of America’s conscience onto the national stage.



In October, the group plans to launch a coordinated border watch with its chapters located in at least eight states.

“Realistically, we’re looking at 10,000-plus volunteers being deployed Oct. 1st on the southern and northern borders,” said Chris Simcox, a chief organizer for the Arizona Minuteman Project and founder of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, Inc.

The Arizona Minuteman Project made headlines in April for its month-long patrol along a 23-mile stretch of the Arizona-Mexico border. The activity consisted primarily of volunteers sitting in lawn chairs with binoculars and reporting unauthorized border crossing attempts or other illegal activity to the U.S. Border Patrol.

Headlines from the Arizona event gave the group momentum, and turned what some first believed to be nothing more than a publicity stunt into a national movement. The group has since hired lawyers, reorganized into separate corporations, filed to legally protect the name “Minuteman Project,” hired a Washington-based media consultant and started an aggressive fund raising campaign. And, representatives of the group, have been to Washington to lobby Congress and relate the lessons learned from their time on the border.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8162019/

[havocmom]

1. Cuz October is when temps in the Southwest get back to bareable!

Good to know these patriots won't be stressing out in the summer heat. Do they think there are no illegals in summer?

[brainshrub]

2. Here's what I don't understand about these guys:

Of all the problems this country faces, illegal immigration ranks pretty damn low. If these Minutemen are so concerned about jobs, why don't they fight corporate outsourcing or join a Union?

This country faces two wars, a currency crisis, environmental degradation, a broken health-care system and a massive deficit. Making a big deal about illegal immigration in the face of these more pressing issues is like complaining about the food on an airplane that's going down in flames.

Republicans have their priorities ass-backwards.

[ckramer]

9. Totally agree with you

Plus, protecting the border is government's job. Why are these people doing this?

[Mairead]

14. "Protecting the border is government's job."

Without in any way wanting to insult you, I've to say you've illuminated the main reason (imo) why the GOP are doing well and the Dems poorly: liberals say 'it's the government's responsibility' and wait for an amorphous 'them' to do something; conservatives take personal responsibility for being 'the government' and swing into action without waiting for anyone's permission.

This is why so many cap-libbers and other rightwingers (mis)use Jefferson as an icon (he'd recoil from them like a kitten from a snake, of course, but that's a different issue). Jefferson was a democrat, an anti-oligarch. He believed 'We, the People' are 'the government' by natural right, and that we should act accordingly, including periodically riding current politicians out of town on a rail.

The liberal tendency to sit around on their chunks waiting for 'the government' to fix the problems is why we aren't seeing endless and escalating street action, why we're not seeing 10M sigs on Conyers's letter, ...and why the Dems are going down the drain.

[tlcandie]

33. You've hit onto something that it seems noone will pick up on...

I posted below as well. They are onto something here as well that needs to be put in a more positive light and that is a grassroots effort/movement of PEOPLE not an icon/politician/government getting out there and facing civil disobedience arrests which is considered terrorism in this country (not in South America, btw) until changes are made!

South America is leading the way by example.

Thank you for your post.

[K-W]

57. Vigilantism is not activism

If you look behind this "movement" you will see that it is not, in fact a grassroots movement, but small scale mobilization of extremists that was latched onto by the powerful people who push anti immigration policies and it got blown totally out of proportion.

I don't trust their ambitious claims at all, but even if they are building support it is because of the media attention, propaganda and anti immigration sentiments.

Thomas Jefferson supported legitimate civil disobedience, not vigilantism.

Conservatives sit around having propaganda pumped into their head and occasionally are driven to action by the propaganda. Or in this case they are a collection of largely racist people who are irrationally afraid of immigration who are misinformed and wound up by politicians who then vote for them diligently.

Conservatives aren't activists, liberals are. The only active conservatives are getting paid handsomely to serve the interests of wealth and power. The left is far far more activist than the right who's main popular movement is religious and authoritarian, not democratic.

Guarding the border is the government's job. And anyone who claims to be a liberal is doing nothing at all wrong in saying that the government should protect the borders, that is entirely consistent with liberal ideas.

I'm all for encouraging more activism and battling apathy, but this is not an example of civil disobedience and the right is not based on individual activism, it is based on authoritarian exploitation, thats what makes it the right.

[Mairead]

Vigilantiism *is* activism!

That you don't approve of it doesn't change its nature. Just like that guy in Kansas who works in the bottling plant and spends his own time and money out on the street subverting his own interests. It might be stupid and self-destructive, but it damned well is activism!

And you are subverting your interests...and mine!...when you criticise activism and urge people to sit down and wait for someone else to do the work. I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no patience with that.

If you don't like what's being done, then lead by example down a better path, but don't willfully mislabel, and don't criticise when you're not willing to offer improving leadership.

See things clearly!

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

95. Here's what I see clearly....I see a bunch of heavily armed people that...

...will be patrolling our borders, supposedly to help the Border Patrol do their job.

I also see clearly the liklihood of some of these people deciding that some of the illegals need to be executed to serve as an example to the rest of the illegals trying to find jobs in the US to feed their families.

And that's going to lead to some of the illegals deciding that some of the vigilantes need to be executed for killing illegals.

Yeah...I see things VERY clearly.

[Mairead]

99. Yep, and I see the same thing

But just think if those of us who are not rightwing loonies also decided to take matters into our own hands in various ways. If we walked the talk, in other words.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

103. I think it's headed in that direction...probably sooner rather than later.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

126. Would it be better for them to be unarmed?

I recall some drug gang threatening to kill the Minutemen people when this was all going on...

[tlcandie]

97. You did not reply to me, but in case you were...

(Noticed a couple of words I had used in my post)I never agreed with what these exact people WERE doing. :+ I was trying to point out that taking matters into their own hands.. as in THE PEOPLE... to rid the US of what is turning it into a monster IS the answer.

My example was South America starting with Chavez and the domino effect now taking place.

As I stated, I am not into vigilante justice, but I am into a government by the people and for the people. Currently it is not by or for the people.

Also, I am not into guns and death. Bolivia had ONE death..count em ONE and that one was one too many, but only one during this whole time of civil disobedience to bring the country to its knees until such a time that someone could be appointed to restore it back to the people.

If you didn't have me in your scopes then this wasn't intended as a reply to you but furthur clarification as to where I stood when I originally posted.

Thank you..

[NoKillShelterGuy]

125. Which powerful people?

"that was latched onto by the powerful people who push anti immigration policies "

Corporations rely on illegal immigrants to keep real wages down, so they're hardly "anti-immigration". Bush is pro-illegal immigration, because he has a long past history of courting the hispanic vote. He has gone as far as to call the Minutemen people vigilantes. So which "powerful people" are you referring to? Because if they were indeed so powerful, they'd have closed the border LONG AGO.

[ckramer]

114. Hello, wake up

"Jefferson was a democrat" right, of what year?

Democrats should cease this kind of debate because republicans are loving it. We are fighting each other under their talking point, under their framework. We are stupid in that regard.

"Dems are going down the drain" damn right. Republicans are going down the drain too.

Why? The most pwoerful conutry in the whole country couldn't protect its border.

But I think that's false. People (republican and democrats, especially republicans) in Washington don't really give a fuck.

The border can't be protected by a handful of 'cowboys'. Don't fool yourself.

[Mairead]

123. I'm not the one not awake

I'm not talking about the border. On some level I don't give a damn about the border. I'm talking about liberals getting off their fat chunks and taking personal responsibility for making things better. Not complaining that 'the government' isn't solving the problem, but getting together with other people and acting out of their own authority as part of 'the government'.

And Jefferson was a democrat during his lifetime: the second half of the 18th and first quarter of the 19th century. Didn't you know that?

[ckramer]

130. Government isn't you and me on the implementation level

You think you are the government, haha sorry, but you are not. Although theoretically you are, yet you really aren't.

You can't take law into your own hand. This is not an era of militia any more. Patrolling the border is not your "personal responsibility". That's why I felt funny when these republican cowboys were acting up in their SUVs along the border...They've got too much time in their hand...

[NoKillShelterGuy]

127. That's wrong...

"People (republican and democrats, especially republicans) in Washington don't really give a fuck."

If illegal immigration was stopped, we'd have a major crisis on our hands very shortly. Illegal immigrants are the closest thing to slaves left in the US, and big business would be screwed if their supply of cheap, malleable labor went away.

Republicans NEED illegal immigration to continue.

[ckramer]

131. Agree

And that's why the borders are practically opened...

[DBoon]

10. esp corporate outsourcing

why are these guys so worried about immigrants coming to work in low paid jobs, when all the high-skilled high-paid jobs are flowing in the other direction.

It's capital migration that's killing us, not labor migration

[leesa]

16. Because they have no interest in solving problems. They want to play

'cowboys'.

[Jade Fox]

21. Racism

These guys are the sort who prefer to project their anger/fear/frustation
on a target with a face, preferably a face of a different color.

[Igel]

29. Hmmmm....

The second largest source of US$ in Mexico is from immigrants, largely illegal, sending US$ out of the country. This isn't a huge contributor to the weaker dollar, but contributes.

California's continued environmental degradation, and increased depredations on Colorado River water, comes from population growth. This is due, in recent years, almost entirely to immigration, and in the deacde before that, largely to immigration.

The health care system in California and Arizona is under stress from non-payers. A large proportion of non-payers and uninsured are immigrants, of which a large percentage are illegally in the country.

Deficit? That's * and the Congress.

War in Afghanistan, I don't blame on *. The one in Iraq is his fault.

But illegal immigration is complicit in exacerbating three out of the six problems you list.

[BadNews]

45. I couldn't agree with you more. Stop the flow of Illegals! NT/

[K-W]

59. The answer to the problems of a diseased economy is not

cracking down on poor mexicans trying the enter the land we stole from thier ancestors because we have systematically supressed development in thier country and exploited them for thier entire history.

[NorthernSpy]

67. Mexico's ruling class exploits poor Mexicans...

... and cheerfully dumps them across the border rather than deal with them.

That shit gets old. It's not our job to serve as Mexico's safety valve.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

98. "Dumps them across the border"?? Interesting. The last time I talked....

...to an illegal he was talking about the American Dream of one day becoming a US Resident and being able to bring his family across the border for a better life.

Hmmm. Isn't that the way ALL of out ancestors got here?

[barb162]

135. yes, LEGALLY, usually through Ellis Island and other such

immigration facilities

[Judi Lynn]

70. Unfortunately, very few people are aware this has happened.

Awareness of what the U.S. has done to this hemisphere is so well buried it's almost a miracle, sometimes, if someone FINALLY learns Mexican farmers have been crushed and broken trying to raise modest crops like corn and sugar cane by the massive control exerted by U.S. interests.

The very people who have tried so hard to work hard and support their families in Mexico have been plowed under by the effects of American agriculture taking away their markets.

Makes you wonder what people think they are SUPPOSED to do when they have absolutely nowhere to turn. Sad.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

96. Wow! Another historian! That's a dying subject, you know....

...at least, that's what they keep telling me. :-)

[Igel]

113. Most of them were never dispossessed of holdings in the US.

We've been guilty of a lot of other things, and did ship some Americans back home as Mexicans. But the majority of them, no. The territory wasn't well developed, and while US meddling certainly helped retard Mexican economic growth, I find it hard to believe that the US was the sole reason for its not developing.

[barb162]

138. you are incorrect on every point. Mexicans' ancestors owned

New York, MA, IL, etc?

[leesa]

90. This is totally unfounded bullshit.

[noamnety]

3. 10,000 volunteers?

Shouldn't they be heading over to the recruiter's office?

Of course Arizona is probably a lot safer and closer to their families than Iraq. They're like the Ted Nugents of militia men. Skeered to go to war, but brave enough to shoot squirrels.

[0007]

23. Bingo!! A bunch of bored, talk big, beer guts looking for notoriety.

USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA

[whistle]

4. The minutemen are nothing but republican brown shirt storm...

...troopers who have been given the power and authority by the republican majority and the Patriot Act to shoot first and ask questions later. This is now beyond dangerous, because American military troops sworn to protect the U.S. people against all aggressors, are off fighting an insane war for the president and republican controlled corporations and interests, while the people are exposed and vulnerable to literally hundreds of thousands of these vigilante minutemen thugs.

[Conservativesux]

5. I hate the thought of having to but a gun, but if these brown shirts show

up anywhere near my part of the US, I swear I will buy a gun.

[whistle]

11. It better be a 50 caliber assault weapon or grenade launchers...

...because anything less than that will leave you pretty vulnerable.

[Toots]

13. Do you know of a "50 caliber assault weapon" available someplace?

:shrug: Never heard of such a thing but am interested.

[BiggJawn]

17. Sniper rifle, anti-tank rifle, heavy machine gun...

Nope, *I* never heard of this "50-calibre Assault Weapon" either.

Must be one of those thing legalized by Bush when the AWB was allowed to die. Funny that I haven't seen any around here, since they're supposedly being sold in gas stations and school book stores, along with full-auto Kalishnakovs now....

[Toots]

24. Could you imagine packing a "basic load" of 50 cal rounds?

I don't know what is considered a basic load in today's Army but when I was in it was three hundred rounds. Could you lift three hundred rounds of 50 cal ammo?

[BiggJawn]

35. Yeah, I probably could.

But then, I can lift a Harley-Davidson engine off the workbench, and lift an old air-cooled VW engine, too.

But I sure as shit wouldn't want to carry 300 rounds of M-2 Ball very far...

[slackmaster]

136. 300 rounds of loose .50 BMG ammo in steel cans weighs 88 pounds

You can fit 150 rounds, loose, into a standard ammo can. A can so loaded wieghs 44 pounds.

If it's linked for an M2 machine gun that would be 100 rounds per can, or three cans, and about 97 pounds total.

[Toots]

143. Okay now add the weight of the weapon and your other gear

What is that again? One bullet proof vest, one helmut, four frag grenades, two smoke grenade, first aid kit, gas mask, entrenching tool, LAW, Claymore mine, bedding gear, three days food, two days water, half dozen to a dozen sand bags. I do not believe there is such a thing as a 50 cal assault weapon sorry..

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

25. Minutemen are law abiding citizens of the USA trying to

spotlight the out of control number of illegals in this country. They are breaking no laws.

[Conservativesux]

42. I dont believe that for a second. These are hatemongering racists.

[BadNews]

47. Still the miniutemen have broken NO laws. By definition, ILLEGALS HAVE.

[Pystoff]

54. Hispanic isn't a race

[Mairead]

68. It's as much a 'race' as anything else is: race is a social construct.

[Pystoff]

81. Nope

Infact 3 friends of mine 1Puerto Rican 1Mexican and 1Dominican agree. That's as much NOT a race considering the sources eh? We don't get to alter truth's when we want to fit the subject...leave that to Pug's ok?

[Zenlitened]

82. Throw in a 2 Cubans and a Spaniard, and we'll consider it settled!

What're you, kiddin' me? :rofl:

[Pystoff]

85. No I am not kidding you

Find anywhere where Hispanic is considered a race. A culture maybe but race no.

And btw those 3 people are students at Dartmouth College (a nice leftwing liberal arts school)so they aren't just some fools off the street. Oh btw yes they are all VERY liberal but don't go for the whole Hispanic is a race bit sorry if that offends you.

If you broke down the race of Hispanics that varies greatly but the broad term Hispanic cannot be used to describe a race of people.

[Pystoff]

86. By that logic

Redneck or Heartlander will be the next "races" LMAO :rofl:

[NorthernSpy]

58. given that illegal immigration arguably hurts blacks the most...

... perhaps it's those who try to justify mass border-jumping who are the racists.

[barb162]

120. There was a great article by Clarence Page about this last week

He strongly disagrees with the Vincente Fox comments about "not even" blacks taking the jobs that the illegals are taking. Black people and union people and a whole bunch of other Americans are being hurt by the millions of illegals in this country.

[barb162]

117. They are assisting a horribly undermanned border patrol

courtesy of the chimp who likes to help his rich GOP employer buddies get rid of high paid American workers. The Minutemen are patriots helping the USA government do what it should have been doing for years...securing the porous borders. If people want to enter this country, let them apply legally.

[DeaconBlues]

43. I totally agree

but of course here at DU if you think that illegal immigration is a problem, then you have to be a racist.

[barb162]

121. Well I guess a lot of black Americans are racist (bwaha)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

93. Right. If that were true, we could have all kinds of heavily armed...

...gangs of all political persuasions roaming the countryside.

[barb162]

116. Minutemen are reporting illegal activities to the border patrol

There is nothing "vigilante" about that.

[Singular73]

6. I know guys like this and...

they absolutely hate Bush for this...keeping America white is basically their main goal.

Noone gives a rats ass about the Canadian border...I wonder why.

[barb162]

26. because the number of illegals entering through Canada is a

tiny fraction of the illegals entering through the S. border of the USA

[Media_Lies_Daily]

And we know why the illegals are being ALLOWED to cross the....

...southern border...because the agricultural industry needs workers willing to work for less than minimum wage.

Wake up.

[barb162]

115. Actually, not just agriculture, but construction, manufacturing, etc.

And any industries that want to bust USA citizen union workers. I think you should wake up.

[DeaconBlues]

44. Actually, the Minutemen want to start patrolling the border with Canada

as well. There was a thread here about it a while back, and the Canada nationalists howled about it and they threatened to shoot the Minutemen. Interesting, just like people in this thread.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/print/CTVNews/1114556761559_6/?hub=World&subhub=PrintStory

A civilian patrol group that has been monitoring the Mexican border for illegal immigrants wants to expand its mission to the Canadian border, organizers said Tuesday.

Minuteman Project leaders said their volunteers alerted U.S. authorities to more than 330 cases this month of illegal immigrants crossing into the United States across a 37-kilometre stretch of Arizona's southern border. Now they plan to extend their patrol along the rest of the border with Mexico and are helping organize similar efforts in four states that neighbour Canada... (more)

I wish people would look into things a little before they just post mindless accusations.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whistle]

12. Armed to the hilt....latest in assualt weapons

[NoKillShelterGuy]

128. Wha?

I thought they were only allowed to carry handguns. Is this not true? Are they allowed to carry rifles?

[ldf]

28. i think if the "pussies" were in charge

we would be a lot closer to having the problem solved.

it seems that women tend to think things through to solve a problem, rather than just throw firepower at it.

just wanted to point out your enlightened verbage.

[SoCalDem]

8. Gee maybe they can team up with the swiftboat liars

and "patrol the Rio Grande Delta"..:silly:

[leesa]

15. Will they wear their white robes and hoods?

[BiggJawn]

18. "It Can't Happen HERE!"

Please read this book by Sinclair Lewis, either before or after you read "Demon-Haunted World".

In it, the antagonist, Senator "Buzz" Waldrip, who rides to the White House on platform much like a certain current occupant did ("I'm gwinna letcha keep MORE'N yer own MUNNY!")

Has a grass-roots organization of paid "volunteers" called "The Minuteman Marching Clubs". These groups help to get Buzz elected, then become his army of occupation, smashing dissent and jailing people for speaking out.

Then they start guarding the border with Canada. Can't even sneak down a rabbit trail heading north without running into a MM patrol....

Read the fucking book, people, THEY (the BFEE) DID!

[Lori Price CLG]

19. We need to launch the 'CLG Civil Offense' to fight this new...

Gestapo.

Lori Price

[sadiesworld]

20. It's nice to see * and the cheap labor rethugs at cross-purposes

with their base.

[Gregorian]

22. Men of hate.

What is there about love thy neighbor; Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, that these people don't get?

They are, without a doubt, Republicans. No? I'll apologize if I'm wrong. But this mentality is the same one that results from a twisted logic that I consistently see exhibited by those who have an agenda that want to further. Whether it's deforesting for cash, or supporting bush to "keep those unruly Arabs in line" (yes, I got that one this week).

These people have no morals. And it appears they can be hit over the head with a solid brick of logic, and not hear the truth. (See Daily Show episode with Jim Lesczynski, Guns for Tots program, for excellent example of thickheadedness).

I don't know what we can do, or if we can do anything in this situation. But I sometimes wish for something cataclysmic to happen that will force these idiots to have to do something productive with their time. Of course that would also make our lives difficult.

I believe the human condition is hopeless. I will now go mow my lawn.

[VegasWolf]

107. Yes, and drink beer and quote the bible and whine about the 10 cmd's. nt

[Pystoff]

27. Odd responses.

I've been voting since 1988 and never voted for a single republican. Let that be said before someone up and accuses me of being a plant and tries to get me banned for what I am about to say (Dukakis,Clinton2times,Gore,Kerry,and every local Dem for office). Illegal aliens are just that...law breakers. Their first act towards our country to to break a law. I don't like the people in the MMP infact I'd probably cuss most of them if I had to talk to them for any protracted period of time over politics. But they are the government they are the people and have the right and infact think it is their duty to protect the boarder of their nation. Our southern boarder is being flooded by people and we cannot sustain this any longer. I've lost 2 jobs in a year by being replaced by cheap illegal labour. I called INS knowing full well the people replacing me only had SS cards and had never heard of a green card when I asked them and ducked when we went by a police car or government car. I was replaced by people making 3 dollars less an hour when the gas prices rose and they didn't work any harder and infact didn't stay more than a month before leaving. I lost my job because of Bush voting greedy business owner that had a ready supply of cheap illegal labour and was aided by a lazy INS that didn't care when I contacted them. We've had a rash of drunk driving deaths including 4 of a family killed by an illegal alien without a drivers licence just last week. This has gotten out of control and throwing insults at those who try to stop it and playing the other side beecause you feel guilty or something is not adressing those of us who have an will eventually suffer. Almost 80% of america wants this adressed and if one party decides to adress this the other will suffer with the common worker as a backlash reaction...some of you forget the average worker will take whatever he/she can get short term. I want NAFTA dead and the US out of the WTO as well but I want the people immigrating here to show some respect and do it the same way the ones before them did. Lest we forget the struggle the Irish,Italians,Germans and Poles made and earned paving the way for legal immigration.

[DeaconBlues]

46. Amen and welcome to DU

although don't expect much logic here when it comes to the issue of illegal immigration.

[Pystoff]

53. Thank you

I guess it will take a few more people here to lose thier jobs to illegal aliens to make it sink in. I guess most of the people here have jobs that can't be touched by them....yet. I sure have sorry but I don't have a nice shiny degree but in time when the children of illegal aliens get enough free education maybe then they will listen in retrospect.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K-W]

61. Show some respect?

They are just trying to feed thier families like you. Stop blaming other workers for the fact that employers control the economy and will find any way they can to exploit labor to the fullest.

And you need to do a little historical research and realize that that Irash, Italians, Germans and Poles were all despised and hated for stealing jobs.

Meanwhile if we want to talk about justice here, lets remember that we stole that land from Mexico and that we are have supressed development in every country on this continent south of us.

Get your fellow citizens to stop employing cheap foriegn labor if you really want to blame someone.

[Pystoff]

84. Yes show some respect.

By your logic they wouldn't have been feeding their families where they were...funny I haven't heard of a famine have you? Workers??? This isn't a contenital socialist movement here this is the US last I heard and we have immigration rules doesn't Mexico and the rest of Central and South America? Yes they do and I'd get deported for crossing their boarders illegally but probably after a nice stay in one of their fine "facilities".

Yes and those Irish,Germans,Italians,and Poles didn't just come here illegally infact many got sent right back. They went through the struggles for decades which an illegal immigrant doesn't struggle for other than a boarder crossing now. Do not belittle those who built this country with such a broad swipe like their only contribution or struggles were being despised then admired.

Texas had a war of independance seperate of the US then became a state of the US. A dictator despised by his own people attacked that state and was fought against by a majority of people formally of his own nationality (Mexican) also know as Tejans. We stomped Mexico's ass you are right and paid 100k for all the lands west of Texas. Stolen no bought cheaply because Santa Ana had little choice since he got a big head and wasn't long for the earth after yes.

I don't condone what the US government has done to Central and South America but I don't think it is my duty to give up my job in return. I do blame the employers of the US for employing this cheap labour but the INS doesn't give a shit what I think anymore...(example in 1994 the INS fined 12,000+ businesses for illegal labour in 2004 only 12).Nor do the Democratic or Republican party apparently. And it is about time the party of the people the Democratic party that is supports the american worker by NOT supporting anything to do with aiding illegal immigration. This includes NOT supporting CAFTA,NAFTA, or the WTO. And by getting out of Central and South America's business!

[NoKillShelterGuy]

129. So does that mean that Scabs...

"They are just trying to feed thier families like you."

are good people in your book? After all, "they are just trying to feed thier families like you..."

[leesa]

88. Duh! If American corporations stopped hiring them they wouldn't be here.

Vigilantism is not the way.

[Pystoff]

112. Corporations?

I worked for 2 small businesses and got fired also known as replaced in right to work states both times by illegal labour (gas crunch last summer). Actually all white and black regular labour got "replaced".

When the US government decides to put more than 1500 agents to cover a boarder that long and Mexico decides NOT to support people illegally crossing you'll have an issue. Untill then the vigilantes are the only people with the balls to act. Nobody has been killed or even roughed up and untill that time they have done nothing wrong....other than watch and use a cell phone to alert authorities. Something wrong with that?

[barb162]

122. thanks for writing what you did. You show how American workers

are being tragically hurt like hell by this fucking illegal problem that should have been taken care of years ago. I don't want to see ANY American worker losing his or her job because an illegal is waiting to grab it for a lot less. These damned employers should be fined bigtime and get jail time. Bush is a pig for not beefing up the border patrol. He cares zilch about American workers. I also want Nafta and the US out of the WTO. These damn trade deals have hurt this country enormously. I agree with you! Good luck and welcome to DU.

[Pystoff]

132. Hey thanks

Thanks for the welcome and the support. Some of these people haven't or won't get hurt for a long time so I guess it's easy for them to do the "white guilt" thing over this. I wasn't alive during the 1840's and wasn't part of the government during the last 110 years making policy that hurt Latin America so I feel NO guilt. Funny I'd expect people including liberals to be on Commander CooCooBanana's butt over not upholding a written law....stupid me eh?

:shrug:

[barb162]

133. I have less than zilch guilt over having illegals entering

this country. The Minutemen are just fine with me. And I think we should send all the illegals back to their own countries and charge those countries our expenses for deporting them. I know of American citizens who are getting laid off and illegals replacing them where my sister-in-law works. We absolutely need to completely shut off all the borders in regard to both illegals and terrorists from entering this country. Immigration? Get in line, apply and do it legally.

[Catherine Vincent]

30. You illegal aliens better think twice about entering Texas!

[emc]

37. there here in this town now

They are here in Deming NM right now for the coming weeks--and this weekend there is also a gun show here----two great attractions for the weekend---go down and see the cowboys, and check out the gun show---I hope the jerks take to the desert here, they are in for an experience---heat and rattlesnakes---maybe one will even get his ass in a crack out there, its easy enough to do.....

I just hope I meet up with a couple of these dudes or one of these vigilantes crosses my property----

OH, yea one more thing, we have the southwests largest gun dealer here in Deming---he has all the latest assault weapons on hand that are needed for the minutemen----only thing is he is a democrat---which is a result of me---I switched him from registered republican to voting democrat since he has two boys about service age---and he informs me that they are headed for Canada if called up-----

[AlphaCentauri]

39. Yeah! remember the Alamo!!

how those illegal aliens declare the Independence of Texas...

:hi:

[Catherine Vincent]

40. Hi and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[geckosfeet]

31. Why are they called minutemen? It is an insult to the original minutemen.

The original minute men were colonists ready to defend themselves, neighbors and towns "in minutes" against the British occupation forces. For these goons to commandeer the name is presumptuous and insulting to our original founding patriots.

I can just see these beer bellied wackos sitting in lawn chairs getting juiced up in the desert persecuting desperate South and Central Americans trying to get into the country. They seem to be nothing more than a bunch of bigoted racists intent on venting their anger and frustration on someone less fortunate and less able to fight back than themselves.

I can't help but think that the original minutemen would be horrified and disgusted.

[tlcandie]

32. Reminds me of what's happening in South America....

The people are taking back their country, resources and their lives! I'm not sure I'm for this...can't say. I'm not for vigilante justice, but I do think we could learn a lesson from this and organize and move on making radical changes just like they've done here.

It is UP to the people to make the change. A government for the people BY the people. We've relied on dirty politicians/lobbyists and self-serving government for FAR too long now.

Alas, in this country, unlike SA, it is considered a terrorist act to participate in civil disobedience.

[MisterP]

48. takin back their country? are you out of your gourd?!

they have the Ca. Governor's approval and Bush's weak denunciation--some rebellion against authority.

[sadiesworld]

49. * and the other rethug politicos CAN'T loudly renounce the minutemen

lest they alienate their fake base, i.e., rank-and-file republican voters. But make no mistake, *'s real base, i.e., the elite, LOVES the cheap labor which illegal immigration provides.

Surely, this isn't news to you?!

[MisterP]

50. I was being sarcastic about the "rebellion against authority":

George has to tread a fine balance between those who want to "intern" browner people to keep this country white and those who exploit them. Poor, poor George.

[sadiesworld]

51. The only color * cares about is green.

The goals of * and his elite cronies should never be confused with those of his followers. It's a game.

[Mairead]

69. Maybe you should re-read for comprehension rather than ammunition?

Tlcandie is writing about the people of South America, not the self-aggrandisingly mislabeled 'Minutemen'.

[MisterP]

74. Tlcandie expressly compared the two

[Mairead]

89. If it turns out I'm wrong about the context, then I owe you apology

The juxtaposition of title and first sentence, plus the fact that 'taking back their country' clearly does apply to the people of SA but can be made to apply to the 'Minutemen' only with a stretch that leaves the reader in need of a surgical truss....

I saw the comparison being to the autonomy expressed by action, not to the content, power, or meaning of the act.

[tlcandie]

102. Thanks and you are absolutely right!!!

Maybe I did NOT clarify myself well enough, but I was referring to those in SA.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Minuteman have it right in a general way. In the way that those of us who are NOT happy with the US and where it is going and the monster she is turning into due to those in control and squeezing tighter every day need to WAKE up and follow their example... again, in a general way.

The best/better example to follow would be the people in South America...THEY ARE TAKING BACK THEIR COUNTRY, THEIR RESOURCES and THEIR LIVES!

Until we are willing to do the same, nothing in the US will change... period. End of story. No politician or president will do what is needed. We've gone too far to the right..extremism/fascism and close to other unwanted endings. Why? This country was founded by and for the people and the PEOPLE have to make the necessary changes.

The Minutemen are to be lauded because they are standing up for what they believe in. Do I support them? No. Do I agree with their cause? No. We can dis them all day and put them down till the cows come home, but at least they have gotten off their asses and standing up and doing something about what bugs the hell out of them instead of just talking about it in forums or on the front porch while sharing a beer with Joe Blow.

Not everything that people do is entirely wrong. Sometimes people want to do the right thing, but do it in the wrong way.

I'm not into dissing people, talking ugly about others or putting other people down. We are all one of the same cloth and we need to find the good in people/others and learn how to work for the benefit of all around the differences instead of dividing.. constantly dividing and not seeing ourselves in the ugly actions of other people in this world.

EDIT:
We always need to remember there IS enough to go around. Get out of fear or not having enough or not enough to go around. Work with where we are and remember there IS enough to go around for everyone. Withholding from others out of fear of not having enough is never good. Start finding out what the problems are and try addressing those in their country. Talk with Mexico, work with Mexico to see how the people of the US can help them. Reminds me of the Cubans going to poor countries to train if they school in Cuba before they can go into practice. THERE ARE WAYS to find common links and bonds and goals, but first we have to get past our own selves and our own fears and quit pitting them against us.

:hug:

[tlcandie]

100. Umm South American people?

:eyes:

[PassingFair]

52. I simply CANNOT believe that on DU, I can read a sentence that

includes the phrase, "I'm not for vigilante justice, but...."

These yahoos are going to shoot down humans like jackrabbits. If you don't think they will, you don't know much about human nature and guns. When the slaughter starts, and leaks out, let's see how you feel.

We need to prosecute EMPLOYERS that hire illegal immigrants. I think THAT'S something all but a sliver of America could get behind. Make them responsible for clearing their employees.

I'm talking to you, WALMART!

And every employer, large or small.

[Mairead]

124. I think you need to read it again, and with greater attention

Candie is talking about the fact that these guys--however much we despise their politics!--are taking action. Yes, it's action whose purpose and probable outcome we condemn, but it's action...and that's something in short supply among liberals and the left.

[barb162]

139. We read all over DU on the first Minuteman project n in AZ that

they'd be shooting everyone up. No shots were fired.

[Mairead]

72. I don't quite see the resemblance you do between these guys

and the folk in SA, but I'd agree that there's a certain amount of model on view here, if we want to look at it.

We'd be better restoring the model used during the '60s, which is the same model used in SA and Europe. But we've allowed ourselves to be divided, and I'm not sure how to fix that. Street action works well elsewhere because everyone in the action has an un-endangered support group to act as an umbilical. That's the way it worked during the '60s and '70s, too. But we don't seem able to do that now. Any thoughts about that?

[tlcandie]

106. Mairead thank you for your spirit!!!!

It seems that more times than not as you put it people read to find ammunition instead of reading the spirit of the post.

If people ever read my posts before they would know beyond a shadow of a doubt I am not about vigilante justice or gun totin' whatevers. :+

I did a poor job of trying to explain what I was thinking and I think above (in reply to you again) I might have clarified this a bit and shown what I thought was the part of the Minutemen to be lauded.

What was to be lauded was their ACTING ON THEIR CONCERNS. Not the reason for doing it or the way they chose to do it, but the fact that they actually put their feet where their mouths/brains/hearts were.

This in general and not to you specifically, Mairead: There are many things said in DU that I'm astounded and actually wounded by daily. Many times I walk away grieving or in tears. The division, name calling, thinking we are better than other people, hatred, etc., etc. all of these things disturb me terribly. I would hope to be surrounded by others who come from a place of love instead of fear. Until such a time, it is my heart's intent to try to express love not fear by working to understand those who post within these invisible walls.

[mbperrin]

34. Not sure how immigrants can be illegal, based on our history...

Pretty sure those Europeans claimed the area and came in regardless of what the locals thought; I know there's something about "raise high the golden lamp" on the Statue of Liberty, as well as give me your tempest-tossed and so on....

My own grandparents came here from Germany long ago, and I'm pretty sure they were considered no catch in Germany...

Truth is, I don't know where any non-Native American gets the moral authority to keep ANYONE out of this country.

We used to take pride in the idea that people wanted to come here, somehow now we take pride in seeing how many we can keep out (unless they are those news visas for high-tech types, donchaknow?)

Remind me again how armed individuals roaming around doing what they want against individuals not in their group is different than just regular gangs?

[kineneb]

118. Hear, hear!

Most of my ancestors got here before Ellis Island. Great-great grandpa came over from Germany in 1851. No problem then.

No one has truly addressed the reasons people come to the US, whether legally or illegally. In the case of Mexico and SA, the poor cannot find jobs in their own country. Or they have farms but cannot sell their products for even a break-even price. Or they may face political persecution.

Unfortunately, the US government and its policies often have an influence on these problems. The support of right-wing governments and corporations in Central and South America has lead to some really unberable conditions. Is it any wonder that people then attempt to seek a better life here? The real cure to the problem would be a change in US foreign and economic policy, not a bunch of drunken goons with large guns.

[barb162]

140. Every country has the right to keep out illegals. Period. End of

story.

[Robworld]

36. How many of these guys do you think might be KKK members?

http://www.dumdumgoestothecircus.com/

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NorthernSpy]

56. what the hell?

i have zero tolerance for stupid inbred backwater redneck hillbillies from the heart of jesus land. they not only annoy me greatly they are a blight on our society. hopefully some of the federales south of the border will be kind and arm the people wishing to cross the border. then grab the popcorn and watch the insanity

So you actually want a bunch of foreigners to come here and break our laws -- after their own government has armed them for the adventure and sent them off with its blessing?

Wow... I can scarcely believe I just read that.

Let me tell you something. If Mexico did that, it would be an act of aggression. We'd retaliate, and rightly.

[K-W]

64. The word you are looking for is Hyperbole. EOM

[NorthernSpy]

66. hyperbolic or not...

... the underlying sentiment is outrageous and offensive.

[stepnw1f]

78. He Didn't Say That.... You Did

Go join up! Actually, Iraq is waiting.

[NorthernSpy]

87. actually, he DID say that

I restated his remark in other words that preserved his meaning exactly.

Go join up! Actually, Iraq is waiting.

How lame of you! I'll see your "go join up" and raise you a "love it or leave it". :eyes:

As it happens, I'm deeply opposed to the Iraq war. And contrary to what you may expect, a person does not have to be a rightwinger to recognize that Americans -- yeah, even us -- have legitimate interests that are worth defending.

[stepnw1f]

92. Puhleeeeeze... join up

[Media_Lies_Daily]

104. Unfortunately, you want to defend American interests by....

...denying to the next wave of immigrants what has been available to each previous wave of immigrants...freedom and the ability to earn a decent living in this country.

[DeaconBlues]

76. So, you advocate the armed invasion of our country and the murder of

our citizens?

Yeah, and its the Minutemen who are the whackos. :eyes:

[PassingFair]

144. KKK? No problem for some folks here....

as long as someone's taking ACTION!

Holy Cow.

We need to clamp down on employers of illegals. HARD.
If an illegal is cutting your lawn, let's deport YOU.
Arming yahoos and letting vigilantes hold sway is an
untenable option.

And again, I cannot believe that a liberal would get
behind this kind of "solution".

:puke:

Note: Negativity not directed towards you, Rob.....

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeaconBlues]

60. what the Minutemen are bringing is the exact opposite of anarchy

They are trying to bring order to a situation that is out of hand - something that the "free-trade," pro-corporate crowd in Washington refuses to do. The Minutemen patrolled part of the border for the entire month of April without one incident. They merely reported to the Border Patrol when they witnessed someone crossing the border illegally. Sounds like they did a damn fine job.

People who automatically jump to conclusions and call people "brownshirts" or "racists" are the ones whose ideology has made them so closed to reality that they wouldn't recognize it if it came out and bit them on the ass.

[K-W]

62. No, they are chasing a scapegoat and threatening order.

The situation that is out of hand is US employers, not mexican workers who supply a very strong demand by employers for cheap, and therefore more exploitable labor.

This is an example of misplaced class resentment feuling irrational and dangerous actions not positive activism, and these people are consantly manipulated by politicians and movement leaders. The mobilization of right wing extremists is not a good thing.

[DeaconBlues]

71. Actually, the Minutemen have projects under way to go after the employers

of illegal immigrants. And, as far as the Minuteman movement not being positive, I say that any action, no matter how small, that stops the suppression of wages for working class people is a good thing. One of the reasons that working class people can be exploited here is that the corporations can hire illegals at such low wages, with no benefits, etc. A key to having a healthy labor movement in this country again is stopping the flow illegal immigration.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeaconBlues]

73. the dangers represented by having a totally open border

(armed human smugglers, drug smugglers, economic problems, etc.) far outweigh the dangers posed by a few neighborhood watchers on the borders with cellphones. The same people on this board complaining now are the same people who last April bitched that the Minutemen were armed vigilantes who would go on murdering sprees. And of course, nothing happened. But here they are again, crying that "the sky is falling." Welcome to that club. Please, don't let the facts interrupt your rants.

[stepnw1f]

77. "few neighborhood watchers on the borders" with guns

I bet the NRA is happy to see a new market arise. Please, buy a gun and join today!

[DeaconBlues]

83. Since most coyotes and drug runners are probably armed,

and the international gang M-13 has declared war on the Minutemen because they interfere with the gang's ability to smuggle people and drugs across the border, I definitely wouldn't join a patrol without being armed myself.

But, as I've mentioned before, there as not been one incident where a Minuteman member has confronted an illegal immigrant with a weapon, or violently in any other way.

[stepnw1f]

94. Minutemen are a Gang

This will make matters worse.

[MisterP]

108. like when the Angels were used as security guards?

[DeaconBlues]

111. Please reply to my arguments

baseless accusations are not a rebuttal

[barb162]

134. wrongo

[Media_Lies_Daily]

105. Hey, DeaconBlues....tell me why we've had absolutely no terrorist....

...attacks on this country since 911? If the border were really as wide open as you say they are, why haven't we been attacked? Where are the terrorists?

And please, don't insult anyone's intelligence by calling the Minutemen "neighborhood watchers". That's a pile of baloney, and you should know that.

And speaking of "rants", maybe you ought to take another look at YOUR post.

[DeaconBlues]

110. Please tell me how the Minutemen are different from a neighborhood

watch besides the fact that they set up outside of their own neighborhoods?

As far as terrorism is concerned, I'm more concerned about the economic terrorism committed against the working people of this country. Evidently, you side with Bush and the corporations when it comes to this fight.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

101. Tell us all about "order" when we learn that the Minutemen are shooting...

...illegals. And then tell us all about "order" when the illegals start shooting back.

And you don't know personally what happened during April, do you?

[DeaconBlues]

109. Um, how do I know personally what happened in April?

The same way that you should know -by watching, listening to, and reading the news. The ACLU and the media watched the Minutemen's every step, and would have screamed to high heaven if anything out of the ordinary happened. But, guess what, NOTHING happened.

And don't hand me any bullshit about the corporate media hiding evidence. The corporate media wants the Minutemen to fail. Their bosses love having slave labor here undercutting workers who are here illegitimately.

About the Minutemen shooting illegals: People like you were whistling the same toons last April. Again, to repeat for the mentally challanged, NOTHING happened.

[barb162]

142. Good post. Yes the same people screaming the Minutemen are

vigilante racists a few months ago are still screaming the same baseless bullshit.

[Gloria]

65. There's a split in our NM Minutemen as reported in our local paper today..

Apparently, one side wants to follow the law and have some "humanitarian" approach, while the other side is just totally nuts.

[Lars39]

75. This goon organization will also keep people from *leaving* the US.

[Zenlitened]

79. "... driven the issue of illegal immigration from the margins....

... of America’s conscience onto the national stage."

What kind of dumb-ass could type that sentence with a straight face? And what kind of shit-for-brains editors could read it and think, "Yeah, let's run with it"?

When in the past 20 or 30 years has illegal immigration been a marginal issue?

Gad, it's like there's a stupidity test required to be a "journalist" these days. Unbelievable.

[dejaboutique]

119. when did Websters Dictionary change the meaning of illegal?

sorry people, illegal means illegal. I think these are just concerned americans. some of these landowners down there have to watch people from south of the boarding running accross their private property maybe while they are having a family picnic. that is trespassing which is also illegal. Why is it that immigration has become a race issue?

[barb162]

141. Immigration becomes a totally phony race issue when the

people who support illegal entry have no other argument. The same people like to throw around the word "vigilante" in regard to the Minutemen despite the facts that their AZ work broke no laws and they assisted the border patrol.

[Barkley]

137. Maybe they can hire former CA Gov. Pete Wilson as campaign manager

... Arnold did.

You all remember 'they-keep-coming/ Prop. 187' Wilson?

[Moderator]

145. locking

Discussion has run it's course.