Pentagon gives no excuses for suspect treatment; senators aghast

[deadparrot]

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The US military offered no excuses for interrogation techniques used on a Saudi terror suspect at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, saying his questioning followed a "detailed plan" and that prevention of new attacks justified the means.

The retort followed publication of a secret document detailing the military's handling of Mohammed al-Qahtani, suspected of being the 20th hijacker on September 11, 2001, that suggested his interrogators may have used a combination of forced hydration and denial of bathroom facilities to pressure him for information.

The revelation has left some US lawmaker aghast, with Republican Senator Chuck Hagel openly suggesting "a vacuum of leadership" at the Pentagon.

The interrogation log obtained by Time magazine also indicated Qahtani had his head and beard shaved, was stripped naked, ordered to bark like a dog, prevented from sleeping by loud music, had pictures of scantily clad women hung around his neck and was straddled by a female interrogator, a contact particularly offensive to a Muslim.

more...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usattacksguantanamomilitary

[sniffa]

1. oh come on! he got chicken 3 nights a week though!

:puke:

[reality based]

7. and vegetables

[JuniorPlankton]

2. NO EXCUSES, the end justifies the means, unbe-fucking-lievable!

But then, why would ANYTHING surprise me now?

:mad:

[coalition_unwilling]

3. Rumsfailed gives new meaning to "vacumn in leadership"

At the Pope's funeral, when Bush's visage came up on the big-screen TV, many in the crowd booed him. Is it any wonder?

[Just Me]

4. Pull outta' your denial, Hagel. Your eyes are wide friggin' open!!!

It's NOT a "vacuum of leadership",...it's a diseased and cancerous dictatorship!!!

:grr:

How much longer can these Republicans allow themselves to be blinded by their own denial, their own rationalizations, their own lies to themselves?!!!!!

:grr:

[fooj]

28. "diseased and cancerous dictatorship"...Nicely put, Just Me!

:applause:

peace.

[GeorgeGist]

5. Aghast are they...

ooo my such girlie men.

[0rganism]

11. "Dear me, ah do believe ah've got anotha case of the vapors"

Weel jes you lie down an take it easy, miz hagel, we'll get you a mint julip ta calm yer nerves.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. He got to listen to Christina Aguilera and eat chicken and rice pilaf.

What's the problem? :sarcasm:

[VegasWolf]

44. Yeah, and a lap dance with dinner! nt

[evermind]

8. This is perfectly consistent with Gonzales memo about

how to interpret the Geneva convention: "torture is only torture if it causes serious and lasting (physical) harm to the person being subjected to it. Anything else is fair game." I paraphrase, but that's about the gist of it that I remember. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

So, unless you're going to actually start chopping off limbs or removing organs, you can do what you like, it seems...

[Meeker Morgan]

20. They are not "interpreting" the Geneva Convention.

They have already said it doesn't apply. :mad:

[hatrack]

53. I think what Gonzales said was . . .

Only if the tortures produce the equivalent of organ failure or death - words very close to that effect.

But hey, other than that, it's anything goes in BushWorld! :puke:

[killbotfactory]

9. Hey, at least they aren't being held without charge...

Oh wait...

[megatherium]

10. This guy missed his appointment to be the 20th hijacker

on September 11. I have no sympathy for him. We needed to know as quickly as possible what information he could provide us about the scope, nature, leadership and sponsorship of the 9/11 plot. He was humiliated in various ways, made to be very uncomfortable, but they did not inflict severe pain; there was no mutilation or dismemberment here. If there had been a followup plot after 9/11, and we did not do what was needed to prevent it, would we forgive those responsible for such negligence?

[gratuitous]

14. And you "know" all of this how?

From the same folks who are trying to rationalize their treatment of him? Even the article says only that Qahtani was "suspected" of being the 20th hijacker. What if you or someone you cared about was "suspected" of being the 21st hijacker?

By demeaning and cheapening other people's lives, we demean and cheapen ourselves. If terrorists use horrific methods of furthering their aims, how do we distinguish ourselves from them if we also use horrific methods?

[megatherium]

31. killing 3000 civilians in cold blood = horrific

various humiliations not= horrific

[gratuitous]

45. I wouldn't presume to argue with such logic

But I don't see what it has to do with the matter at hand. How do you "know" that the person being subject to various humiliations (which I suspect you're not volunteering to undergo) is guilty of killing 3,000 civilians in cold blood? Surely you have some basis for your assertion. It's a simple enough question, but you don't seem to be able to answer it.

And what does subjecting him to these humiliations accomplish? Having been held incommunicado for years, how likely is it that he has any usable information? Or are we just indulging the sadistic tendencies of his captors? Revenge is a very poor substitute for justice.

[megatherium]

47. I don't know if he's guilty.

My initial post was based on the premise that they really had the 20th hijacker. They might be lying or merely mistaken, I acknowledge that (please see my posts #32 and #36).

As for what these humiliations accomplish, they claim they got valuable information. Again, they may be lying.

Justice nor revenge is the stated goal here. The stated goal is to obtain intelligence that might save American lives or defeat bin Laden and company. Bin Laden is of course still at large. Bin Laden declared war on us circa 1996, and his group has staged multiple savage attacks (Tanzania and Kenya, where hundreds of innocent Africans perished; Bali; and of course 9/11). There still is a danger of another major attack. Exerting psychological pressure on enemy aliens is at least theoretically justfiable, if it really does prevent that.

[gratuitous]

56. At least there's that

But I still see a lot of unsupported assertions dressed up as fact, and a lot of tenuous "ifs" that might be the happy result if all goes as planned. Unfortunately, this administration rarely seems to deliver on its promises, changes its rationales at the whim of a hat (as the Dear Leader himself is wont to say), and has exhibited very little concern for the actual victims of international terrorism except as they can be used as props to further their program, which seems to involve the slipshod accounting of a great deal of money spent ostensibly to fight terror.

I don't know for a fact whether the billions of dollars that have gone missing or the disputed bills of government contractors have been stolen for the personal enrichment of certain members of the Bush administration, but I do know that at the end of 2002, Halliburton was teetering towards bankruptcy according to its annual report, but by the end of 2003 had recovered sufficiently to pay its former CEO (and current Vice President of the United States) a $175,000 bonus.

[Pachamama]

54. My husband & I lost 5 friends on 9/11-we don't support torture, even of

someone "believed" or "confirmed" to have been a part of the events that murdered our friends...And guess what? Same for any family members of our friends who died that day...they are sickened by this administration, have felt stonewalled and left with even more questions than answers from the 9/11 Commission report...Not one of them condones torture, even of Osama Bin Laden himself...

Your entitled to your opinion and clearly you think torture short of organ failure is okay. Personally, I want to live in the United States of America, not Uzbekistan. You might like it there better...people disappear...they routinely "boil people"...nice....

[Lerkfish]

16. you mean, the 13th 20th hijacker? like the 12th No 3 al quaida guy?

I believe absolutely nothing at all that comes from this administration. I advise everyone to be equally skeptical.

[megatherium]

32. Point well taken.

If the authorities had good reason to believe this was the guy, what they did was reasonable. If they're not lying to us, that is. And you're right, skepticism is warrented.

[adigal]

46. What does this behavior do to us as a people???

Warning: my husband was a NYC fireman who was disabled by the clean-up and the lies of the administration about the air quality at the WTC. He was working on September 11th and I thought he was dead all day. So I had and still have a lot at stake from these terrorists.

BUT, when we treat others, even the worst prisoners, with disregard, and treat them as less than human, then we are disgracing ourselves. I strongly disagree with this, or other torturous types of behavior, done in my name. Don't you see that al Queda has won when we do these types of things? We have become our enemy. 3000 dead is not an excuse for anything. If you act like your enemy, you have become your enemy.

I am going to start a thread with this idea, because I see a lot of people thinking like this.

[megatherium]

49. I'm sorry about your husband.

Unfortunately, al Qaeda does not give much consideration to our feelings. They believe we are sexual perverts and are controlled by the Jews. They have legal justification from religious scholars to use weapons of mass destruction on us if possible. If they really had good reason to believe this guy had detailed knowledge about the 9/11 plot, they were justified in using methods short of actual torture to get this information. An enemy alien can not expect the rights accorded to US citizens.

But you are right in that we should consider our own morality. This sort of thing should never be routine, which it seems to be. It should be only as a last resort.

[Lerkfish]

52. why even then?

if its used as a last resort, then it will be used as a medium to last resort, then as a quasimedium sort of last resort...etc.

Once you use torture, you ALWAYS DO. Check out all regimes that did so. Their use of torture only increased in frequency and on a wider and wider group of prisoners. The ONLY thing that stopped them once they started was to be defeated by revolution or invasion.

there is NEVER A JUSTIFICATION FOR TORTURE. never. When we torture, WE become less than human, not the people we torture. Wrap your head around that thought for a moment.
Torturing others changes US INTO SUBHUMAN FILTH. It does not change the morality of the victims.

[arcane1]

18. I thought Padilla (sp?) was the '20th hijacker'

:shrug:

how many 20th hijackers are there?

[megatherium]

33. no, he was the alleged dirty bomber.

Or did they ever claim he was part of the 9/11 cell?

[RaleighNCDUer]

19. They SAY he was the 20th hijacker.

Which is not necessisarily the same thing as BEING the 20th hijacker.

If it comes from the government, it is probably a lie.

If they believed there was a follow-up plot, why would they have not used extreme physical force, as they have done with so many others, to the point of killing at least 29 of them? If they did nothing more than ritually humiliate this guy, was it because they KNEW that there was no follow up attack planned?

If it comes from the government, it is probably a lie.

If they knew there was no follow-up attack planned, how did they know it? If they didn't know, why go easy on him?

If it comes from the government, it is probably a lie.

[jpak]

21. I thought Zacarias Moussaoui was the "20th Hihjacker" WTF???

http://www.nationalledger.com/scribe/archives/2005/04/20th_hijacker_p.shtml

Are they all #3 Al Qaeda leaders too????

Do they all have one leg or one eye and may be live or dead like Bin Laden and the Mullah Omar and Abu Mus'ab al-Zarqawi????

How many "20th Hijackers" are there????

[megatherium]

37. My recollection is that Moussaoui couldn't participate

because he had been arrested. The guy under discussion here might have been his replacement, but I don't remember the sequence of events.

I think the proliferation of #3s is like corporations that have a variety of vice presidents, each in charge of one aspect of the company. Or they replace #3s as they get captured or killed. Or, yes, it's all bullshit and anyone who might have worked with bin Laden is a #3. We do know the whole color orange bit was deliberately used for political purposes.

[megatherium]

36. Good questions.

You're probably right, I now recall they captured this guy later in Afghanistan, well after his attempt to enter the US to allegedly take part in 9/11.

[Malikshah]

22. Wow--just....wow

By the way...I'd like you to meet the forest. Please ignore all the pesky trees in the way.

Just...

Wow.

[TahitiNut]

26. Just what part of "suspected" isn't clear to you?

It's interesting, after all this time, that it's still "suspected" ... despite treatment which, if you treated your dog that way, would get you arrested. What would you do if your mother or father were treated that way? Even in Indiana?

(Sheesh!!) :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[megatherium]

40. My mistake: assuming this guy was clearly the 20th hijacker.

If he wasn't, of course, you're right, our behavior was shameful and probably illegal. If he was, we needed to learn what we could about the 9/11 plot as soon as we can (technically, captured terrorists or irregular combatants don't exactly have the full complement of civil rights; he was not a US citizen). Of course at this late date, we should shut down Guantamino and similar camps.

A small clarification: I supported the war in Afghanistan, indeed I was angry that the Bush people went about it in a half-hearted way and allowed the al Qaeda leadership to get away. I supported toppling the vicious Taliban leadership. But I don't support the war in Iraq, that was not entered into in good faith and its conduct has been ruinous. After the brief "we are all Americans" phase right after 9/11, various parties moved quickly to exploit 9/11 for their various ends, especially political. The neo-con cabal, which includes Rumsfeld and Cheney if not the President, grabbed onto this to start a war whose real purpose was to secure US access to petroleum.

(I am not a LIHOP or MIHOP person, I think bin Laden and company did 9/11 all by themselves, catching Bush and his people by surprise. How else to explain the stupid deer in the headlights look about Bush while he read that children's book after being told the second tower had been hit? If they had preknowledge, they wouldn't have allowed Bush to be videotaped being such a fool.)

[RaleighNCDUer]

57. I am LIHOP at the very least.

1) Asscrack stopped flying in the month before the attack.

2) Two separate anti-terrorist/hijacking drills being conducted on the morning of 9/11, providing confusion and cover for the real hijackings.

3) Failure of the SS to secure the pretzeldent immediately upon hearing of the first attack, when he was in a public place for a well-advertised photo-op, making him an obvious target if there was a wider attack planned.

4) Failure of the military to intercept any of the 4 planes, when SOP can get interceptors on the scene within 20 minutes, as we have seen EVERY TIME before and since, but not on 9/11.

5) The 'imminent threat' PDB, entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike America".

The list gets much longer, and much more involved. Please research it.

[elias49]

39. Do we even know who the other 19 were?

Some of the alleged 19 are alive and well.
20th my ass!

[megatherium]

41. pardon me, I don't believe these conspiracy theories. nt

[Lerkfish]

43. you're excused. However, no reason others can't if they so choose...

Not sure why one opinion should supercede or stifle the opinions of others. :shrug:

[megatherium]

50. Sorry, didn't mean to stifle anyone's opinion.

I was just registering my own skepticism of these theories.

[Lerkfish]

51. my mistake, I misread the "pardon me" part as

trying to stop the other person.
sorry for the confusion.

[RaleighNCDUer]

58. You prefer the government's conspiracy theories?

Apply Occam's Razor -- choose the simplest theory that best explains all the facts.

Then consider if the admin's conspiracy theory is more reasonable than LIHOP or MIHOP.

[MGKrebs]

48. WE signed on to the Geneva Conventions.

WE have thought it was a good idea for 50 years.

WE have been through several conflicts since, and never renounced that agreement. Why now? What is so much more horrible about this than Pearl Harbor? Or Tet? Or is it more likely the feeling of impotence of leadership, or inadequacy if you prefer?

Does torture even work anyway? Of course the prisoner will say anything to end the torture. If we are reacting to every little thing a tortured prisoner says, we are likely wasting a lot of resources.

Once you have tortured a suspect, you must consider him, his family, his friends, and most anybody who knows him all to be enemies. Is it worth it?

Who bears responsibility when the brother of a torture victim seeks revenge, which in his eyes is justice?

[four more wars]

55. You're on very dangerous ground...

This guy was 'convicted' in no objective court of law, on the bare minimum of evidence, and then subjected to this treatment.

As long as you are happy to see yourself or any member of your family treated in this way on the same 'Evidence' then your conscience can be relativly clear.

There is a real danger you are presuming that this guy is guilty due to the fact he was either Moslem, or of middle eastern descent.

I'm certain you could find many wingnuts that would suggest you should be treated in this way for being a member of DU, you 'terrarist Skum'

This is how Nazi Germany came to be. Build an irrational hatred of a particular sector of the population up to the point that human rights, even their very right to be alive, is negated because of the populaces fear of the atrocities they 'may' commit in future.

Like I said, you are treading very dangerous ground.

[katsy]

12. So who's asking for EXCUSES?

Some accountability would satisfy me.

Long ago (way before 911), I thought terrorists were the scourge of the earth.

Within the last few weeks I saw an interview with an Author of a book on terrorism. I'm sorry but his name escapes me, the program was Dobbs. The Author is credited for having developed the largest terror related database. He made some interesting points as I remember:

Terrorism is not related to religion.

Iran has produced few if any terrorists because the US government can not further their policy in Iran.

Anyway, I forgot all the data he produced to defend his theory.

Basically, America produces terrorists by injecting their policies into the affairs of foreign countries... always to the detriment of foreign citizens.

Well slap me with a wet noodle!

If I had my way, we'd lock up this administration in gitmo until we had some answers and accountability from them. They are the only terrorists we need to fear.

I can't believe that again that the focus on the "military" as if they have a collective fucking brain to concoct some fairly sophisticated tactics targeting the psyche of Islamic prisoners without orders from this cruel criminally insane administration.

I DEMAND all politicians have a lie detector clipped to their dicks before speaking publicly... "vacuum of leadership" MY ASS. It's a vacuum of humanity, morality and conscience. No fucking wonder the world hates America.

:rant:

[KayLaw]

13. Offensive to a Muslim?

Why the hell isn't that perverted crap offensive to everyone? Are we just openly evil now? For God's sake!

:mad:

[donkeyotay]

15. suspected hijacker

Our government has little credibility. They are hiding behind secrecy to commit war and tear up our Constitution. The government must try and convict people in open court or go fish. The ends don't justify the means; this MORAL RELATIVISM is destroying our country, not making us safe.

[aquart]

17. You're "aghast," Chuckie?

Well, YOU gave them permission.

[Disturbed]

24. Padilla is an Amerikan citizen who has ..

been in prison for almost 3 years without any "official" charges. The Govt. claims that he may have been involved in a dirty bomb plan not involment with the 911 Attack. His case did go to the SC but they passed on it because at the time of the case the docs said that he was in a specific location that he was not at any longer. The authorities had moved him but failed to write down his new location, so the case had to be refiled. At this time the Govt. can detain any Amerikan citizen indefinetly without charges.

[damntexdem]

23. Uh, Pentagon! Yes, you! Listen up!

You see, sometimes U.S. soldiers are going to be captured. Now, we really WOULD like to see them treated humanely, wouldn't we? Very good! Now, guess what: it's no guarantee, but still when we abide by the rules, sometimes that encourages our enemies to abide by the rules. And we do have some rules against torturing prisoners. See, we don't torture their prisoners; they don't torture ours. But what if they torture our prisoners even if we don't torture theirs? Well, then we can play the PR game and point out how much more moral and nice than they are. Got that? Then we have a PR advantage. Now, the way you have been torturing prisoners, that makes for bad PR, and it makes it more likely that our own troops will be tortured. So, cut it out! Got that!

Sorry for the simplicity of the language, but one needs to alter one's language to the comprehension level of one's audience. And these Bushista generals -- well, let's just say that purging the military leadership and substituting good Bushistas just isn't the best way to bring your deck up to a full 52 cards.

[Orion The Hunter]

25. A great quote from writer at the Washington Post about this

"If we have to defend ourselves by pointing out that we are morally superior to terrorists, it's a loss." - Fred Hiatt

[Catrina]

27. Excellent quote

Moussauoi was supposedly the 20th hijacker, AIRC. They must think we are all as dumb as the press, who apparently never question what they are told and simply report the lies they are fed ~

Al Zarqawi has died, lost legs, how many times now?

I can't help comparing the difference in the way the Iraqis treated our troops, eg Jessica Lynch, when they were captured.

Chuck Hagel needs to stop being shocked and start doing something, like demanding that the Abu Ghraib hearings be re-opened.

That report on the '20th hijacker' is tame, compared to the videos that we did not yet see, but which Senators, including Republicans saw and were horrified, even according to Rep. Lindsey Graham. 'We're talking about rape, murder and the abuse of children' I remember saying when he asked Cheney to 'let us do our job, Mr. Vice President'.

But the committee was not allowed to do its job. The hearings were shut down after the Nick Berg video tape arrived in the media just in time to 'justify' anything we might have done to detainees.

Sy Hersch saw some of those videos and stated also that children were being abused. He too was shocked by what he saw.

Sometimes its hard to have hope that we will ever again be a civilized nation where most citizens, rather than excusing such horrorific behavior, will be outraged by it as most decent people ought to be.

Most of all, it should be remembered that almost all interogators whose job it is to get information say that torture does not work.

[MSgt213]

29. If torture was illegal at the prison in Iraq why is it legal at Guantanamo

Bay? Because some higher authority explicitly approved it? I don't think so.

[sattahipdeep]

59. detainee #063. News Hour Transcript

Existence of log detailing abuses

JEFFREY BROWN: First set the context so we can
understand what this log gives. When was it made, who
made it, and why?

ADAM ZAGORIN: The log begins on December -- excuse
me, Nov. 23, 2002.


June 13, 2005

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/jan-june05/gitmo_6-13.html

[shadowknows69]

30. is there any question

as to whether or not we're a dictatorship or not?

[Rex]

34. Ah yes, our wonderful former BBV CEO

senator Chuck Hagel. Used his own voting machines to win his last election. There's a court case being buried over it. Funny how he tells it like it is time after time about the BFEE. Why? Because he has all the dirty laundry on BBV in an envelope with instructions to give to the media in case he has an 'accident'.

:tinfoilhat:

[Chauga]

35. We can kill whomever we want. Shut up. Go away. Give us more money.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. The Nazis said that a lot, too.

[Miss Chybil]

42. But what about the rice pilaf? Doesn't that make us the good guys? nt