Vouchers Breathe New Life Into D.C. Catholic Schools

[Chauga]

Of the 983 students in the voucher program, which provides federal grants to District children to use toward tuition and fees at private or religious schools, 61 percent are attending Catholic schools -- a percentage that is expected to remain roughly the same when the program expands to about 1,600 students this fall.

Education analysts say it is no surprise that the Archdiocese of Washington schools are so heavily involved in the experiment. Their tuition rates are usually less than the $7,500 maximum that voucher students are allotted, while tuition at the city's elite private schools is much higher. And several of the Catholic schools are in poor neighborhoods where parents dissatisfied with public schools are most likely to reside.

The first comprehensive study of whether the new scholarships are boosting student achievement won't be issued for 18 months. But it is already clear that the program is a boon for the archdiocese. Its D.C. elementary school enrollment increased last fall after three decades of steady decline, and the influx of students has helped revive more than a dozen schools that at one point were candidates for closure.

The 43-year-old St. Benedict is one of them. A 1995 archdiocese study recommended that it and 15 other elementary schools in the District be closed or consolidated because of dwindling enrollment. At the insistence of then-Cardinal James A. Hickey, the schools remained open, and the archdiocese set up a new office to help many of them with such functions as fundraising and teacher training.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/12/AR2005061201241.html

[jaxx]

1. Vouchers piss me off.

Either send the kid to public school, or let them pay for private themselves. My taxes are paid into the public funding......period.

[slay]

2. I DO NOT want to pay to brainwash my fellow humans

with religion. Vouchers piss me off too. If people want to spend their own money brainwashing their kids like that, well that's their right. All this faith based shit funded by our tax money has got to go. Call me crazy but I've always prefered a reality based view of the world, you know, because of the reality and stuff.

[patcox2]

11. Catholic schools don't brainwash.

Anyone, anyone at all who has been to one will tell you. They take people of all religions and do not try to convert them.

[noamnety]

12. Sure looks like religious indoctrination to me

"All schools in the diocese have a formalized religion curriculum that is facilitated by teachers in the school who hold current Religion Certification from the Office of Catholic Schools. The religion curriculum has learning strands that are covered throughout Pre-Kindergarten classes through Grade 12."

http://www.richmonddiocese.org/ocs/catholic_identity/index.htm

"All Catholic School teachers, regardless of their assignment to other curricular areas, should have a copy of this document and should seek ways to integrate Gospel teaching into the core curriculum."

http://www.catharchdioceseokc.org/Education/Curriculum/Religion%20Curriculum-Rev%20Jan05.pdf

I could keep going at length, but you get the idea. Please don't insult our intelligence by claiming that Catholic schools don't try to teach religion.

[patcox2]

16. They do teach religion, I never said that.

But they also take people of all religions and they respect their religious beliefs.

If you aren't aware of that, you have no idea what catholic schools are like.

The jewish and hindu and muslim parents who choose to send their kids to catholic schools are not morons, they know what the score is.

[noamnety]

19. Nobody has said the parents are morons

Nor have they said Catholic schools are evil, which you imply in another post. Those are strawman arguments.

What we're saying is that public tax dollars should not be used to indoctrinate/brainwash children into a religion. If you want to argue the premise that this isn't brainwashing or indoctrination, I'd be interested to hear how you support that argument. Here are some quotes from one of the links I posted:

The student will know that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is true God and true man.

The student will know that we are called to be Jesus's friends, the Desciples.

The student will understand that in Baptism we become members of God's family.

In what way does teaching that (as fact) to a young child differ from brainwashing?

[patcox2]

37. I will go you one further, I am against diverting money from public school

s without regard to whether the money, in the form of vouchers, is going to a purely secular school, or to a religious school. Its equally wrong in either case. I am against private schools, in fact, as I believe they are creating and perpetuating a class stratification in our society. At least, where there is a commitment to public schools, kids of every economic level and every race and every beleif have that one thing in common and have an opportunity to interact with and get to know people who are different, instead of cloistering themselves with a bunch of people who all think exactly the same (a typical fundie school, or an upper class prep school) and developing fear, contempt, and hatred for those who are different.

I am fundamentally opposed to vouchers, in other words.

That said, catholic schools are not like fundie schools. If they were, would a jew send his or her child their? That was my point.

[noamnety]

42. Nobody has said Catholic schools = fundie schools

You're arguing with yourself on that point. Another strawman.

But they certainly do engage in religious indoctrination. Their own websites make that clear; it's not open for debate.

I'm sure you can figure out why a noncatholic person would be willing to send their child to a Catholic school that only accepts the best students, if their only other alternative was a public school with a poor reputation. It's hardly proof that the teachers aren't imposing their religious views on the students.

[Sin]

24. I sure do know what they are like.

I was sent to catholic school for 12 years and yea they say they respect religious beliefs but they don't if there is even a kid from different sects of Catholicism they take jabs at there beliefs in indirect ways and some time direct ways.

Ive seen it happen many times Mostly from the religious facility and some from the lay. but not only is it jabs at religion and out right ostracizing in some cases. they also tow a hard right wing line in all social issues from abortion to gays, the down right mental abuse some kids go through from these places is astounding.

Lets break it down from what I saw through my High school experiance
Now i would say that 50% of the student body doesn't really care they will go through the motions of being catholic for the rest of there lives with the prejudices picked up from faculty or at the very least they will have some basic faith these are the ones ya have to watch because ya know there going to become born again once they actually go looking for religion to stick there faith into.

25% of the students are of different sects of Catholicism in the school Byzantine, Lutheran and so on these kids will see jabs at there brand of dogma as said before This is because it was Roman catholic, now when i was in grade school it was Byzantine and they did jabs against the roman catholic kids so it depends on what church the school belongs to see what way the prejudice will swing.

20% are hard core fundies this is usually because the parents are.
and we all know how they are 3 steps shy from being 100% loonie toons.

now the last 5% are of different faith this usually means atheist or agnostic (you see people of totally different faith come over the years but they quickly leave to public school shortly after they show up.) now for that last 5% your usually totally hated or at least at a stand offish point with priests and the nuns this happens when you start to ask questions that they don't have answers for. they keep an overly watchful eye on you. Usually at this point in your life your still looking for were you sit in the world and are experimenting with your true identity so they think you still can be swayed.
So if you were to happen to break one of the many many rules at the school in some extreme cases they make you sign papers that you will find faith or pray more and live up to the high religious standards of the school.
in most cases you will just get in trouble more the the general population.I believe this is because some other students may have different dogmas in a Christian belief system they still believe there is a god and Christ died for there sins. so they may take pokes at there beliefs but you still further the cause.

This is only a fraction of what I have seen now these are just 2 schools with basically the same way of functioning this is why catholic school creates so many atheists like me. Because after you look at that religion you look at them all and see the same thing just with a different color of paint.

[TankLV]

35. I went to Catholic School!

And they certainly do "indoctrinate" students! ALL are REQUIRED to go to mass EVERY DAY before classes.

Being a Ukrainian Catholic, my parents took me out of school to attend Ukrainian School for my 1st communion. The idiot teachers punished THE REST OF THE CLASS because my parents did this! I had other classmates BEG me to return so their punishent would end.

Of course, I would expect you to defend the indefensible.

The government has NO business supporting religion. Giving MY tax dollars to subsidise religious schools, FREES UP MONEY THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE SPENT ON EXPENSES TO SPEND IT ON RELIGIOUS PURPOSES!

[consuming]

45. tell tem man@!

[MichiganVote]

13. Sure....call it indoctrination if you like but its all brainwashing anyway

And btw, I attended for 12 years.

[patcox2]

17. All schools are a form of indoctrination.

catholic schools are a long way from the crazy fundy schools and noone should confuse them.

I am a 100% supporter of the public schools and hate to see policies whioch give up on them. But catholic schools are not evil.

[sadiesworld]

18. People pay a fortune to send their kids to Catholic schools...

they won't stand for a bunch of creationism nonsense. I went to Catholic schools, my mother taught at one, and many of my friends have their children in Catholic schools. The idea that there is any comparison to fundie schools is ridiculous. Discipline? Yes. Indoctrination? Not hardly.

[MichiganVote]

21. Catholic schools indoctrinate children in a religious faith

How they go about it is a subject of acute debate. But it has happened, it does happen and if you ask people why they send their kids to Catholic schools they won't say..for the discipline...they'll say its for learning and practising "the faith". You can talk all you want about crazy fundies but plenty of us recall or have confronted some very strange things in catholic schools too. To promote a belief that a female can and has conceived a child via immaculate conception is as onerous to some as the dreaded creationism. Catholic schools promote that belief.

[sadiesworld]

22. Catholic schools do discuss Catholicism occasionally.

If that is your bar for comparing Catholic schools to fundie schools, you win. Otherwise, your statements bear little resemblance to the Catholic schools I'm familar with. Religious studies and services were rare--and optional. The emphasis was on the academic and the atheletic. My biggest complaint would have been the elitism.

None of this negates the horrific sexual abuse that occured within the Catholic church, nor am I attempting to make any comment regarding vouchers (I am opposed).

[MichiganVote]

23. No religion class? No mandatory mass? Sounds like you're not

getting your money's worth. These items are mandatory in the locale I am familiar with. As a taxpayer I'm not about to want to support a dual school system. No to vouchers.

[sadiesworld]

27. What money's worth?

I'm 43 years old and childless. So Catholic schools in our respective communities differ? Knock me down with a feather.

[MichiganVote]

20. Catholic schools have had plenty of horrors.

To be indocrinated in age appropriate citizenship material in public schools as mandated by either data based curriculum and indoctrination ina faith that tells children they are going to hell or that their relatives go to hell is hardly the same thing. Come on, stop making excuses for parochial schools that have easily violated the human and civil rights of American school children.

[NashVegas]

29. HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa

Went to Catholic school K-6

No one ever asked me if I wanted to confess my sins. I was told it was my duty. No one ever asked me if I wanted to take communion. I was told it was my privilege.

Regarding other religions: we were shown a bunch of concurrent circles, kind of like an archery target. In the bullseye was Catholic. Next ring: Episcopalians. Third ring: Protestants. Fourth ring: Jews. Outside the circle was everyone else. The purpose of the exercise was to show us how close the practitioners of each religion were to God.

1st grade: "all public school children are ruffians."
5th grade: "communism is a sin against God."

[alarimer]

15. me too

Tax money should not be paying for religious schools. But it also steals from schools that really need it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Bingo

You nailed it. Herein lies the problem with vouchers. That money is not going to schools that really need it.

[DFWdem]

41. How much money do D.C. schools need?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/05/23/school-spending.htm

Granted, this is from 2002 but I doubt the numbers have changed much. It looks like the only states that spend more per pupil than Washington D.C. are New York and New Jersey. Obviously the problem isn't with the amount of money allotted to the public schools.

Spending per pupil
state-by-state


Ala. - $5,601
Alaska - 8,743
Ariz. - 5,033
Ark. - 5,470
Calif. - 6,298
Colo. - 6,165
Conn. - 8,800
Del. - 8,030
D.C. - 9,933
Fla. - 5,691
Ga. - 6,417
Hawaii - 6,487
Idaho - 5,218
Ill. - 7,185
Ind. - 6,871
Iowa - 6,547
Kan. - 6,211
Ky. - 5,922
La. - 5,652
Maine - 7,595
Md. - 7,496
Mass. - 8,444
Mich. - 7,662
Minn. - 7,051
Miss. - 5,014
Mo. - 6,143
Mont. - 6,214
Neb. - 6,422
Nev. - 5,736
N.H. - 6,742
N.J. - 10,283
N.M. - 5,748
N.Y. - 10,039
N.C. - 5,990
N.D. - 5,830
Ohio - 6,999
Okla. - 5,394
Ore. - 7,027
Pa. - 7,824
R.I. - 8,242
S.C. - 6,114
S.D. - 5,521
Tenn. - 5,343
Texas - 6,145
Utah - 4,331
Vt. - 7,938
Va. - 6,839
Wash. - 6,394
W.Va. - 7,093
Wis. - 7,716
Wyo. - 7,421
U.S. - 6,835

Source: U.S. Census Bureau

[wellst0nev0ter]

3. Operative Graft

Education analysts say it is no surprise that the Archdiocese of Washington schools are so heavily involved in the experiment. Their tuition rates are usually less than the $7,500 maximum that voucher students are allotted, while tuition at the city's elite private schools is much higher.

Heheh, will these people realize that the joke is entirely on them, that the vouchers were CLEARLY designed to keep these kids out of the elite private schools, which only fosters renewed segregation, and microsegregation between kids who go to those parochial schools and those who are "left behind" in the public schools?

http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/deseg/private_schools02.php

And don't squeal to me about how much DC spends on education per pupil. Almost all of that money is spent on special education (an unfunded mandate) and with the environment that DC kids are being born in, you can bet any money you will have a ton of special ed students.

[MichiganVote]

4. So now we're sending kids away from a broken system to a dead system

Oh yeah...that sounds like a US decision to me. You know its got to be a story about the US when you hear the unbelieveable.

[99Pancakes]

32. I guess we have to fund

the system with the most sexually perverse religious leaders. Good God! Only the Catholics had that kind of scandal! Now, do vouchers have to make up the $$$ they lost in the courts?

[bluestateguy]

5. I really have no objection to parents sending their kids to private school

All I ask is that I not be forced to pay for it with my tax dollars.

You want to send your kid to private school? Fine. All I ask is that you pay for it.

[AngryAmish]

14. I don't have any kids

Why should I have to pay for the education of your kids (or any kids for that matter).

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. I hope you are being sarcastic

Good schools are an asset to a community in many ways.

[meow2u3]

6. Aren't vouchers supposed to be unconstitutional?

I know in Pennsylvania that it's blatantly unconstitutional for public money to be diverted to religious schools, but that fact hasn't stopped some Catholic bishops from supporting an illegal and unconstitutional voucher system to benefit their dioceses.


PA Constitution, Article I, Section 3: Section 3. All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences; no man can of right be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship or to maintain any ministry against his consent; no human authority can, in any case whatever, control or interfere with the rights of conscience, and no preference shall ever be given by law to any religious establishments or modes of worship. and Article III, Section 15 Section 15. Public School Money Not Available to Sectarian Schools: No money raised for the support of the public schools of the Commonwealth shall be appropriated to or used for the support of any sectarian school.

[LynneSin]

39. So is taxation without representation...

..but it's DC so who really cares

:cry:

[MountainLaurel]

7. Xpost to another thread

Completely self-serving of me, but . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=219&topic_id=2348&mesg_id=2348

[tsuki]

8. I have learned "NO" to vouchers only fuels their fanaticism.

I agree, if and only if,

1) Teachers are educated and state certified, with all the background checks in place.

2) Open Door Policy, no pick and choose.

3) Mandatory grade testing on a yearly basis. Students who do not pass are brought "up to snuff" at the school's expense.

4) Adherence to all federal and state laws, including special education, class size, transportation, hot breakfast and lunch programs, classroom environmental testing, minimum class time, etc.

5) Yearly inspections by the state facilities department for code violations.

6) Written discipline codes and an appeal mechanism. Students may not be expelled for being below grade.

For some reason, Fundies have quit arguing vouchers with me.

[tsuki]

9. Oh, I forgot #7.

7) Schools that are consistently in violation, are decertified and must reimburse the district.

[CityDem]

26. Catholic Schools are very popular

I live in an upper middle class suburb of a major metro area and the Catholic schools are filled with children of various faiths, agnostics, etc. The grade schools have a waiting list for most classes and people donate money to the church in an attempt to curry favor. Why are people sending their kids to the Catholic schools when the public schools are fairly new and safe? Kids who attend these schools perform very well in the classroom and score very high on the SAT. My next door neighbors (agnostic) send their daughter to the Catholic school because they prefer the learning environment that is fostered by stricter discipline. Each family has to decide what school best serves their children's needs and if the best option is a religious school, so be it. And for very poor people in run down school districts, it probably is the best option and I support their ability to have a choice.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. So you are supporting taking money away from other kids

who also live in those run down school districts and still attend public schools.

Think about that. If enough kids leave the public schools, if enough $$ is spent on vouchers instead of public schools, what will happen to those public schools?

Do you want a community without thriving public schools?

[CityDem]

36. Reality check

The school district in some of these poor inner cites have failed the children. If I had a child in a run down, under performing school I would want to move him/her to a successful, results oriented school with a good track record. If this is a catholic or religious school -- so be it. I would not want to waste my child's chance for a good education while waiting for the school district to get it's act together. The window to educate a child is short and I would not waste the time while the leaders of the school district try to right the ship.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. You are talking to a teacher who has spent 25 years

teaching in the 'poor inner city'. The failures you mention have been grossly exaggerated. This is a huge RW talking point, which supports the voucher movement, which causes money to be taken away from the kids who need it the most.

The TRUTH is that there are 'failing schools' in the wealthiest suburbs. You don't hear about those though, do you? There are also award winning schools in the poorest neighborhoods with test scores that exceed the local suburban schools.

More truth: the private schools these parents are sending their kids to do not have to abide by state or NCLB standards. In most cities, there is no way to gauge their 'success' as they do not have to take mandated state and federal tests. They also pay their teachers about half of what public school teachers earn.

So the parents are allowed to put their kids in schools that are NOT held accountable for achievement, schools that employ teachers who are not state certified and don't pay a living wage. Nearly every poor teacher I have ever worked with in a public school was hired by a private school (and now the charters) when he/she was fired by the school district.

Now your tax dollars are supporting these private schools. Think about that.

[lumpy]

28. I bet the 'fundies' are pissed about this.

They have been famous for dissing the Catholic Church. When will the religious wars between the Catholics and Fundies start in the US? Governments who patronize similar religions usually end up with religious wars i.e. Iraq, Philippines... you name it. The writers of the Constitution of the US were fully aware of this when they made provision of no religious affiliation in government.

[PurityOfEssence]

10. Subsidizing religion while crippling government and secularism...

All with the same stroke. What joy for the christomaniacs!

There MUST be a god, why, even the gummint sez so!

[applegrove]

25. The science taught in Catholic schools is not always up to par. I

thought the USA needed more science students?

[NashVegas]

30. The Fastest Growing Religious Schools Are Baptists

I got into an argument with someone a few years ago and looked it up.

During the 1990s, enrollment at most private schools, including religious, was pretty flat. Baptist schools saw a 50% increase.

These are the people pushing for vouchers. The Catholic schools will benefit, but you'll see more fundie schools spring up if vouchers become widespread, in a big, BIG way.

[tsuki]

43. Then we have to write the rules. If we don't, they'll steal the

government schools blind, and won't educate the children. Most Fundie Schools will not want to be under scrutiny. We've got to make sure that they are.

[denverbill]

38. What the hell happened to charity???

Republicans and conservatives are always whining about how charity should replace things like Social Security, unemployment, welfare, etc.

Why not start with a small test? Rich Catholics should contribute WAY more to their church, so that poor people can attend Catholic schools for free. Maybe they'd even get some converts in the process.

[DerBeppo]

40. new market

i don't understand why there isn't a growing market of secular private schools.

[Sgent]

46. I've drank the kool-aid on this one

I am theorhetically against private schools. In my area they were formed during integration so they be segregated, although that isn't as true today.

However, I don't think its fair to make our kids wait 20 years to so we can figure out how to have half decent public schools. The reality is its not money -- DC has the highest per capita funding of any district in the country, and they have contineously been plain out shitty.

I'm not willing to sacrifice this generation for my theorhetical views. Every kid deserves an education, and if we have to do it at Catholic schools than so be it.

I'm willing to listen to suggestions, but ya'll mostly don't like the Kennedy education bill either (and don't kid yourselves, NCLB was passed by Kennedy). I don't like any of the options, but is doing what we have been doing for the last 30 years going to change anything?

One final note... I realize that special ed is a major problem, but again I have mixed feelings. It is better for the individual special ed student to be mainlined, but if special ed is the reason our public schools suck, then I think the greater good has to win out.

In New Orleans, where 5 years ago they were they had multiple high schools with 100% failure rate on the the math exit exam, we have doomed most of those kids to lifelong poverty. If I could have given half of them a real education, secular or catholic, if the parents agree I think its the lesser of two evils.