Waco man shocked with Taser dies

[slaveplanet]

Associated Press

WACO — A Waco man has died after being shot several times with a Taser by police during a domestic disturbance call.
ADVERTISEMENT

Robert Earl Williams, 62, was shot about four times with a Taser on Tuesday, and five officers were needed to handcuff him after a confrontation at his sister's home, police said. Williams was later pronounced dead at a Waco hospital.

According to Waco police spokesman Steve Anderson, two police officers were called to the home of Williams' sister after receiving a report of a domestic disturbance between Williams and his sister.

After officers arrived, a records check showed Williams was wanted because his bond on a previous resisting arrest charge had been revoked. As officers went to arrest Williams, he picked up a piece of ribbed steel bar, police said. -snip-

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3226954

[wtmusic]

1. How many people were shot dead with service revolvers

after confronting police officers yesterday?

Just askin'.

[slaveplanet]

5. at least one

Other LBN Tazings:

Posted on Wed, Jun. 15, 2005
Click here to find out more!

LIBERTY CITY

Taser tussle ends in fatal shot

A Miami-Dade police officer accidentally shocked her partner with a Taser stun gun inside a Liberty City convenience store before she shot and killed a car-theft suspect.

BY SUSANNAH A. NESMITH

[e-mail]

A Miami-Dade police officer inadvertently zapped her partner with a 50,000-volt stun gun and then pulled out her service revolver and shot and killed a car-theft suspect after he got the Taser away from her, police said Tuesday.

The man who died, Rudolph Morris, took the Taser from Officer Carol McKinnon while the prongs of the stun gun were still stuck in Officer Guipson Balthazar's leg.

''All Mr. Morris had to do was pull the trigger and it would be reenergized and Officer Balthazar would have been Tasered again,'' said police spokeswoman Mary Walters.

Tasers shoot a volt of electricity over a pair of prong-tipped wires that are designed to embed in clothes or skin. The jolt is incapacitating, but does not generally lead to serious injury.

The incident began Sunday night when Balthazar and McKinnon chased Morris, 29, into the 18th Avenue Market in Liberty City after determining that he was driving a stolen car, police said. -snip-

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/11899874.htm



Lorain Police Use Taser On 2nd Child In Week

UPDATED: 8:02 am EDT June 15, 2005

LORAIN, Ohio -- For the second time in less than a week, the Lorain police department said it was forced to use a Taser gun on an unruly child.

A 16-year-old was tasered after an officer chased him from a fight Tuesday, NewsChannel5 reported.

Police said the teen refused to obey the officer's instructions.

On Thursday, police attempted to use a Taser gun on a 12-year-old boy who became disorderly on a school bus.

Both cases are under investigation.

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4610759/detail.html

[AX10]

20. While I have mixed feelings about the Taser...

in the second case in Lorain, OH, I must ask why is it that the police are using tasers to force compliance. In the past, the officer had to talk to the person if they did not comply immediatly.

Tasers are being abused.

[wtmusic]

41. Exactly

so do we throw out a useful tool because it's being abused? In that case let's reinstate the 18th Amendment.

[catnhatnh]

23. I'll give you a hint...

...if either child was mine they would catch Hell for their actions up or until I found a policeman found it nessecary to TASER them....then I would hunt down the officer involved and beat HIS ass into the hospital (or a grave) with a baseball bat, since I cannot afford a taser...

[slaveplanet]

38. another taser death today

Man Dies in Police Custody

(6/15/05) — A naked man fell from a second-floor window, ran into traffic and was hit by three cars before dying in police custody. Police used a stun gun to subdue Shawn Pirolozzi, 30, who attacked police and tried to grab an officer's gun, Capt. James W. Myers said. He said the stun gun did not contribute to Pirolozzi's death. He died at Aultman Hospital shortly after being subdued.

Rick Jennings, owner of R.J.'s Convenience Store across from where Pirolozzi lived, said he watched Pirolozzi break out the second-floor windows of his home. Jennings said when Pirolozzi was finally subdued by police, he repeatedly screamed, "I love you."

Neighbors believe his statements were aimed at his girlfriend, Angelike Wallace, who had left the house a couple of hours earlier with their 6 month-old son to visit a girlfriend. "When I came home from work, Shawn was fine. He wasn't like this," Wallace said, wiping away tears.

He drank a couple of beers and told her "he was purifying the house of demons," she said. "He was a good man and a good father," Wallace said.

She noted that he had stopped taking medication for back pain a month and a half ago, saying he wanted to provide a safe environment for their baby. The Stark County Coroner's Office was waiting for the results of toxicology tests before ruling on a cause of death.

http://www.fox8cleveland.com/default2.htm

[slaveplanet]

46. WTF-eyewitness

on Fox 8 news report-(Caucasian , well dressed elderly woman) They had him on the ground IN HANDCUFFS, they kept hitting(tasing?) him , they had an ARMY of cops out here, we kept looking at ourselves and asking why they needed all these cops out here? we don't have an army out here, we're just a small quiet neighborhood. They had him on the ground.

[Beel2112]

52. Taser Death?

You don't suppose that "{falling} from a second-floor window" and then running into traffic where he was "hit by three cars" could have had anything to do with him dying, do you? (Combined with the fact that he was naked, which leads me to believe there were some drug and/or medical problems with this guy.)

Please tell me I missed the "sarcasm" tag...

[slaveplanet]

57. That's the police's story sir

the witness I saw on TV had quite a different story

but be my guest...believe he ran into three cars

did I mention I have a bridge for sale?


new report... 5 hours ago



According to police, a naked and bloody Pirolozzi attacked the first officer on the scene, and a Taser was used to subdue him.

``I felt it was too much,'' said Pat Lazar, a neighbor who watched the arrest. ``They had him down on the ground, and I saw one of them kick him and one of them hit him.''

Police Capt. James W. Myers said officers acted appropriately. He said preliminary results from the county coroner show there were only two places on Pirolozzi's body where he was touched by a stun gun. There would have been numerous burn marks if he had been shocked over and over, Myers said.

``I suggest the family get an independent autopsy and soon,'' said Rick Jennings, who owns R.J.'s convenience store across the street and says he witnessed the confrontation.

Jennings:"They beat that man to death.''


http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/11907347.htm

[Beel2112]

69. Huh.

I won't argue whether there was police abuse or not. However, your witnesses just showed that the Taser didn't kill him:

"They beat that man to death."

EDIT:

My my my...that's some mighty fine selective quoting you did there. Let me try:

"{Pirolozzi, the victim} tore away the broken glass with his hands, Jennings {the witness} said. Large amounts of dried blood were still visible Wednesday around the window and on the roof of the front porch.
...
A little while after breaking the window, Pirolozzi -- nude and covered in blood -- walked out the front door and started jumping in front of and on top of oncoming cars, police said. Police said he was hit multiple times. Jennings said he saw him get hit by only one vehicle.
...
Jennings said Pirolozzi lunged into a police cruiser and was choking the first officer at the scene. Police said Pirolozzi attempted to grab the officer's gun."

Paints a little different picture when you look at the whole story, doesn't it?

I'll stick with the coroner's report, not a witness (who aren't necessarily the most reliable sources). Judging by the obliviousness to pain (tearing away broken glass with his bare hands???) and talking to no one in particular ("I love you"), I'm going to guess he was OD'ing on something.

[slaveplanet]

74. first of all

There were multiple witnesses. The lady on TV was named Jan L...?, she is not quoted in this story. Her story was almost identical to these witnesses in this account. Being hit by one car at low speed,(he jumped on the the hood ) Is a whole lot different than three cars (a police LIE) If he did jump out the window of the second story...Judging by the TV report , it did not look that high, certainly not enough to kill, unless he landed on his head, but even that's in doubt, as you can see by the 2nd paragraph you quoted, "he walked out the front door". The blood showed on the TV report was visible, but not excessive.

I'm not arguing that he should not have been arrested and taken to Psych.

why did he need to handcuffed on the ground (a legal state of control) then beaten (illegal) to death.

The police LIED in the follow up report today...and said that there were only 2 taser marks(probably the truth), but the Police spokesman said there was NO possible way he could have been shocked more than twice (a big fat humongous LIE) you can be shocked multiple times with the same probes.

[Beel2112]

79. Riiiiiiight....

"Her story was almost identical to these witnesses in this account."

Tell me something--do you not think that the police interviewed these people and that it went into the report? For that matter, where do you think they got the story that he jumped out of the window (apparently before the police even arrived)? Here's a hint:

"Neighbors said he jumped from a second-floor bedroom window, but police believe he may have fallen." {They later report that the hit by the car knocked him unconscious}.
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4611670/detail.html

"...it did not look that high..."

Well, that's reassuring...

"why did he need to handcuffed on the ground..."

You're joking, right? The man attacked a police officer (tried to choke him/her), was naked, covered in blood and clearly deranged and you don't understand why he needed to be handcuffed?????

"...then beaten (illegal) to death."

Okay, just so we can be clear--your story now is that he was beaten to death and you're no longer supporting the theory that the Taser killed him? Because if so, this whole conversation regarding Tasers is now irrelevant because, like majority of these "taser related" cases, the Taser didn't kill anyone.

"said that there were only 2 taser marks(probably the truth), but the Police spokesman said there was NO possible way he could have been shocked more than twice (a big fat humongous LIE)"

I need to see the quote, because a lot of this depends on what they were talking about:

"The autopsy found a Taser probe attachment at his mid-back area and two sites of Taser "dry stun" direct stun contact."
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4611670/detail.html

Which means he was stunned no more than twice with the stun gun, barring the extremely unlikely (read: impossible) event they managed to hit him in the exact same spot(s).

"The police LIED in the follow up report today..."

I seriously doubt that--see above.

[slaveplanet]

80. out of context

do you not think that the police interviewed these people and that it went into the report?

No , I think the police are spinning their asses off...that much to me is clear...too many independent witnesses...very messy when you try to cover things up.

you're no longer supporting the theory that the Taser killed him?

don't put words into my mouth... the police have exposed their LIES in this case...I don't expect them to come out with the truth willingly.

"...it did not look that high..."

Well, that's reassuring...

Did you see the TV report? the blood?
I did....

why did he need to be handcuffed on the ground then beaten to death?

It's one sentence ..don't twist context

Nothing is theory except the police account that they fed to papers.
The witnesses will have their day in court


Which means he was stunned no more than twice with the stun gun

How old are you?....there is a trigger..they can use it more than once when the probes are already attached to the victim. The police have LIED

The police today said only 2 marks so he could only have been tased twice...

"The autopsy found a Taser probe attachment at his mid-back area and two sites of Taser "dry stun" direct stun contact."

exhibit A...Taser probe attachment at his mid-back area =1
two sites of Taser "dry stun" --------------------------=2
---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------3

3 marks from the coroner = yet another police Lie.

do you have a comprehension problem ?????:wtf:

[Beel2112]

81. So did the Taser kill him or was he beaten to death?

"...don't put words into my mouth"

You wrote, "then beaten (illegal) to death". I didn't put those words in your mouth--you did.

"Did you see the TV report? the blood?"

Uh..no. But we don't seem to be contending whether he was berserk.

"Nothing is theory except the police account that they fed to papers."

Genius, the police weren't even there until after:
1. He fell/jumped out of the window (or walked out, depending on which version.
2. He was out playing in the traffic.

So where do you think the conflicting stories are coming from? (Hint: It's the same source you're relying on for your "beaten to death" story.)

"they can use it more than once when the probes are already attached to the victim"

No s**t. But I find it a little hard to believe they kept two different stun guns in the exact same place for so many jolts. Maybe if he were unconscious at the time I might by it.

"The police have LIED"

You're assuming they're guilty. How do the witnesses know how many times he was hit with the taser? Do you honestly expect they were sitting there counting the "more than a dozen" times the ONE witness claimed? Sorry, but given the contradictory statements made by the witnesses, it's gonna take more than one guy's vague "more than a dozen" to make me believe it.

Oh, and by the way:
"Another officer fired a Taser gun and stun gun at him"

So what do the police have to say about their "LIES" now that they're being reported in the press???

Oh and the "three cars versus one car" "lie"? Probably came from here:
"then jumped onto two moving cars before a third car struck him"
http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?Category=3&ID=228271&r=1

"3 marks from the coroner = yet another police Lie"

So why is it that you've already concluded he was beaten to death but the coroner (and police) are waiting for the toxicology reports? It sure seems to me that if he were beaten to death, they wouldn't need to wait. More importantly, are you going to believe the final report if, as I suspect, it reveals an OD? Or are you just going to believe the parts that fit in with your preconceived version of events and toss the rest out as a conspiracy? I'm guessing the latter.

[sendero]

16. How often...

... does resisting arrest have to result in death?

Just asking.

[wtmusic]

42. A lot less often with departments that use Tasers

If a suspect is swinging rebar at a cop who is trying to subdue him, the cop has the right to use deadly force.

I saw an overweight guy get shot to death because he got pulled over and came out of the car swinging a saber at the cop. For that, he got a bullet through his heart. He looked like he was drunk.

If that cop had a taser, chances are very, very high the man would be alive today.

[centristo]

70. why is everyone so shocked (no pun intended) by this?

if you were a cop armed with a taser and a 6'2", 350 lb man came at you with a steel bar you would do the same thing. You would zolt him until he drops, and if he didn't drop you would beat him until he did. This man threatened the cops and got what he deserved.

centristo, are you saying he deserved to die?

Not really. But you don't fight cops. You don't argue with them. You don't threaten them. You do what they tell you (know your rights) and wait until your lawyer arrives. If you run, fight or threaten a police officer you deserve to get your ass whooped. I read the original article and have to side with the police on this one.

[slaveplanet]

75. fair enough

but, keep in mind....this is an early AP release. As far as I can tell, It features no witness statements.

Don't be suprised if later reports change their tune a bit....

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. Oh, please.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. Are police firearms considered to be lethal weapons? Yes...

...people are expected to be killed or wounded when shot by police firearms.

Are tasers considered to be non-lethal weapons? Yes. Then why are people being killed by what is considered to be a non-lethal weapon?

[wtmusic]

40. So people shouldn't have unrealistic expectations

that's not Taser's fault.

[0007]

55. Give me a fucking break!

[wtmusic]

65. You got it.

:thumbsup:

[merh]

2. FOUR (4) TIMES?

:argh:

The man was 62, were they just trying to see how many times they could shock him before he died? :cry:

[Jacobin]

3. Well, its only the second death in two years from a taser

These are wonderful instruments ....they allow the use of non-lethal force and save lives.....

(brought to you by TASER, Inc)

To purchase your own taser for use against overly frisky ossifers, email:

[e-mail]

[SlavesandBulldozers]

21. only the second death in 2 years?

that's not what I've been reading. where do you get your stats from?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. I think you missed the sarcasm.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

28. ooooh!

damn that's the second time tonight. i'm losing my edge. must get some sleep.

sorry!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. No problemo! It gets us all sometimes! :-)

[RalphReedsWreckedEm]

4. Just another day in Bushland!

Freeptards will be laughing about it! Saying he deserved it!

Knowing nothing of the facts, nor stopping to think that a human being has died, a person with family and friends....

They are evil. They are the sons of Satan himself.

[jody]

6. Should we ban tasers and require police to use clubs to subdue

people who resist arrest?

Tasers are obviously not effective because he continued to fight police after he was shot with a taser about four times.

[wtmusic]

12. "Tasers are obviously not effective"

at least in this case.

How many times would they have had to hit this particular suspect with a club to subdue him? What additional risk would the officers be put at?

[catnhatnh]

24. Give me a FRICKIN break....

...the guy is 6',62 years old and 350 lbs....we're talkin' a frickin weebul...not some steroid freak...I'm betting in Walmart he used the battery scooter...bulk alone does not equal "menace"...

[sendero]

17. People the world over..

... can apprehend someone without killing them.

I suspect that adrenaline fueled anger is why it took 4 shots, and why the taser is a piece of shit.

Eventually, a lawsuit of epic proportions will put a city/county/taserInc in the dire position they deserve to be for continuing this stupidity.

[Beel2112]

54. I'm not entirely unconvinced that

there are people here that won't be happy until the police are reduced to being "armed" with fuzzy mittens and down pillows... ;)

[liberalnurse]

7. Well, we can always go back to basics.....

http://www.whiotv.com/newsarchive/4602900/detail.html

Deputy Shoots Suspect After Being Struck By Vehicle

POSTED: 3:25 pm EDT June 13, 2005
UPDATED: 7:43 pm EDT June 13, 2005

HARRISON TWP., Ohio -- A shooting at a local motel in Harrison Township left one man hospitalized after he was shot by a Montgomery County sheriff’s deputy.

Authorities said the deputy shot the suspect after he was hit by the suspect's vehicle. The shooting happened Monday afternoon at the Economy Inn on Neff Avenue.

Sounds of gunfire are nothing new for the area surrounding the Economy Inn, according to the people who live nearby.

Investigators said deputies responded to the scene after reports that a deputy was injured at the motel. Authorities said the deputy was investigating a suspicious vehicle when he was struck by the driver.

Authorities said the deputy feared for his life and opened fire on the driver.

Ron Evans, who lives nearby, said he is pleased that deputies are stepping up patrols in the area. However, he said he wants the motel's troubles to come to an end once and for all.

Authorities said the deputy is out of the hospital and is recovering from his injuries. They said he has been put on administrative leave. Investigators said the suspect that struck the deputy has died from his injuries following the shooting.

Updated:

http://www.whiotv.com/newsarchive/4607945/detail.html

snip>

Fatal Shooting By Deputy

Authorities said Moore hit Baab with his van and then tried to flee the scene.

Investigators said Baab opened fire, hitting Moore twice. They said he died from his injuries a short time later at a local hospital.

Moore's family said deadly force was unnecessary. Bobbie Moore, the suspect's mother, said her son had a traffic warrant out on him and tried to get away because he didn't want to spend six months in jail.

Sheriff Dave Vore said the investigation is continuing. He said Baab has been released form the hospital and is now on administrative leave.

Vore said Baab will be seen by a psychiatrist and then will return to work.

[jody]

8. I agree. What would Dirty Harry do?

:hi:

[liberalnurse]

10. We all know the old saying ....,

"Watch what you ask for....you just might get it". :hi: :rofl:

[sendero]

19. Your absurd..

.... scenario assumes that any time the police want to arrest someone, the only alternative is their death.

That's not only idiotic, it is sick.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

22. wow liberalnurse

obviously the irony hasn't sunk in for you yet that every day you are defending a new use of a taser in the death of a suspect.

[liberalnurse]

29. I defend the use of the Taser as

an effective means for law enforcement to control the defiant, threatening suspect. It is used constantly without injury, an estimated 500,000 times daily at a minimum nationally. We rarely hear of the successful interventions where the Taser saved people from harmful injury by the threatening suspect.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. How do you fee about the taser being used on children? Do you....

...think the Taser was meant to be used on the very young?

How do you feel about the use of a taser on the elderly?

[shanti]

44. you'll be waiting

a long time for the answer to this one. :eyes:

[NoKillShelterGuy]

59. You know that they "taser" animals to train them, right?

They make remote-controlled taser collars. If the dog disobeys, the trainer shocks them.

[CarefullyLiberal]

68. Interview with a criminal

Cop: Good evening sir. My name is Officer Jones, but you can call me Jimmy if that makes you more comfortable. How are you tonight sir?

Perp: Not too good Jimmy. I've been smoking crack and my old lady's been screaming at me ever since I knocked her across the room. Can you shut her up for me?

Cop: I'm sorry sir, I'm here to arrest you not her but I'll call in a counselor so that we can Mrs. Perps attitude in line. So, you say that you've been smoking crack...thats not so good. Are you currently on any other medications?

Perp: Medications? No, but I took some meth about an hour ago on top of a bottle of Jack, but no, to answer your question directly. No, I'm not taking any other medications.

Cop: Well then, thats just fine. How old are you sir, because I'd hate to have to Tazer an old man?

Perp: I'm 62 and keep that thing away from me. As you can see I'm quite frail and weak from all the drugs I've been taking for oh so many years. I also hurt my arm yesterday when I was stealing a TV from a Republican's house.

Cop: Yes, I can see that you are frail but since you are under 65 and over 18 the new law says I can Tazer you if I feel my life is threatened.

Perp: Certainly we can reach some sort of intelligent agreement here?

Cop: Maybe! If I gave you a good hug would you consider getting into the squad car like a nice boy?

Perp: Please Officer Jimmy! If only all policemen would take the time to reason with us deranged, dangerous, crackhead meth tweeker freaks. You are truly a credit to all police and law enforcement officers.

Cop: Don't thank me, thank the forward thinking folks at DU. They're the one's that got me straightened out.

Lights go down...Jimmy and the perp go hand in hand out to the squad car. Perp later goes to rehab, cleans himself up, gets a PhD and invents the first paper ballot voting booth that actually works in the State of Florida.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

72. oh man that's good

I love how the cop is a conversationalist in your story and not just itching to tase the fuck out of somebody.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

73. really, so the taser is used - on average - 10,000 times a day

in each state? you got a reference for that number?

[Richard Steele]

77. You claim Tasers are used a HALF MILLION times a day, MINIMUM??

You just get better and better with this stuff!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[liberalnurse]

34. Yes, every day.....

I defend them, support them, and tend to those who have been on the receiving end of them...daily.:)

[SlavesandBulldozers]

71. really, so you're a coroner?

:)

[slaveplanet]

76. Give it Up S&B

That's her story , and she's stickin to it...

delusion is a funny thing :rofl:

[SlavesandBulldozers]

78. gotcha

yeah, i know, I'm usually the last one done kicking a dead horse.

[catnhatnh]

25. Oh,give it up...

...I'm tired of you comparing apples and ANYTHING on the planet.Let's see...how are the examples given different?Well in your example the officer could not have used a taser other than as something to throw at the vehicle, and in the post an overweight aging man was electrocuted with multiple jolts for failing to comply with an officers order. I guess in Liberal Nurse world that's the same thing...for the love of Christ-GROW UP...every use of force is NOT justified.

[liberalnurse]

37. Why?????

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. Typical Liberalnurse post defending the use of tasers. Tell me....

...are you on retainer by the company?

[liberalnurse]

32. Hello.....

I love you too!:loveya:

[MindPilot]

9. OK, I'll give the cops a pass on this one

The guy came after them with a piece of rebar (I'm guessing that what they mean by "ribbed steel bar".) That can be a deadly weapon without a whole of effort.

[seriousstan]

11. 6 foot 2, 350 pounds armed with rebar? Shoot him in the head.

A policeman's job is not to engage in a fair fight. I would say a 350 lb 62 yr old man fighting for an extended period of time with multiple police had more to do with his not being able to get his breath than the Taser.

[Beel2112]

51. No kidding.

I can't believe people here think the cops should have gotten into hand-to-hand combat with this guy. Yeah, he's fairly old. But at 6'2", 350, even a 62 year old could easily split your head open with a piece of rebar. I guarantee if the cops involved have family, they'd much rather see their loved one pull out a taser and zap him than try to go hand-to-hand.

Is it just me or are there a lot of people here who just assume the worst when it comes to Police Officers here?

[Occulus]

85. Is it just me, or are there a lot of people here who equate

being against tasers with being against the officers who use them?

Sounds a lot like "if you don't support the war, you don't support the troops" to me.

[Gregorian]

13. Where's the screeching people who value life so much?

There were no ifs ands or buts with Shiavo. No matter what, it's the life that matters. So what if he had a steel bar. He was alive. But I guess it's different. One life is of almighty significance, while another is meaningless.
Maybe there's a better way than this crazy Taser thing. It certainly couldn't get much worse.

[wtmusic]

14. "So what if he had a steel bar"?

Fine (tell me that when he's coming after you with that bar).

It's a shame he died, but the police have every right to defend themselves. The only reason you hear about this "crazy Taser thing" is because it's a big news item right now.

[rooboy]

15. This isn't a problem in other countries...

Police don't resort to shooting people with guns or tasers just because a guy is armed with a steel bar. They do courses on how to disarm offenders carrying blunt objects - Obviously there's a problem with law enforcement training.

[Karenina]

18. REALLY.

A BIG problem.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. What do you know about how police are trained, especially in how....

...to disarm suspects of aby size?

One of the reasons that you're hearing about this "crazy taser thing" is because it's being used in part on the very young while they're handcuffed, and the very old.

At what point does taser admit that their device has been responsible for the deaths of more than 100 people, some of whom were guilty of nothing at all?

[wtmusic]

39. Automobiles last year were responsible for the deaths of 50,000

including thousands of children and thousands of the elderly, some of whom were guilty of NOTHING AT ALL...

when will the automakers admit that???

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. Please try to stay on the subject of this thread....we're not talking....

...about vehicles, are we?

[Beel2112]

47. Right, but what he's trying to point out is that

...100 deaths, even if that number were right (it's not), is remarkably LOW. How many tens of thousands of times are tasers used every year? Yet 5-10 years later we've got "100" people killed by it.

[slaveplanet]

50. Only recently

have they upgraded the charge duration to 5 seconds.

prior to Jan 2005, charge duration was 2 seconds

There were at least 2 deaths reported yesterday with taser incidents.

more departments lack them , than posess them...that will change in the near future.

Every police officer has a service revolver

do the math...

[Beel2112]

53. And....?

Do either of those "at least" 2 cases indicate the Taser was the cause of death? Why don't we wait for the coroner's report, eh?

I've done the math--tasers cause remarkably few deaths. Even with the grossly inflated casaulty figures, the rate of incidences where someone is killed when a taser is involved (yet alone at fault) is a small fraction of 1% of their use.

As for the new 5-second charges, we'll have to wait and see what happens; we've got less than a year's worth of data.

[0007]

56. I've done the math--

Isn't education wonderful?

[Beel2112]

49. Not again...

"At what point does taser admit that their device has been responsible for the deaths of more than 100 people, some of whom were guilty of nothing at all?"

I'd really like to see your source for that "fact". You're not pulling another one of these things where "Die after being tasered"="Killed by taser, despite what the coroner reports say", things are you? And before you run off citing Amnesty's report, I'd like to quote their synopsis:

"In the past three years, more than 70 people have died in the USA and Canada after being struck by M26 or X26 tasers. Some medical experts believe taser shocks may exacerbate a risk of heart failure in cases where people are agitated or under the influence of drugs. In at least four cases, coroners have found the taser directly contributed to death."

In other words, out of the ~70 deaths, there's only conclusive proof that 4 involved the taser at all. That's ~1.33/year, or, out of those ~70 deaths, 3% were actually caused by the Taser. If you want to argue for better restrictions/regulations/training, fine, but don't go running around screaming that the Taser is killing people left and right.

And isn't it odd that Amnesty's numbers coincide so closely with that other report you & others were citing in that other thread? The "73 people killed by tasers" when if you had read the report, the number more closer to 8?

[Occulus]

86. odd, that you would advocate being okay with

an Unconstitutional pre-judgment death penalty. Hey, it's only one or two people being murdered by the tool itself, right?

Note I said "being murdered". These are not intended to kill. Ever. They are supposed to be less than lethal; they are currently simply less lethal. There is a fine, but important, difference between the two.

Even one person being killed by these things before a criminal judgment has been reached is Unconstitutional in the most extreme way. If that person is actually innocent of any crime, it is a tragedy that we as Americans should not tolerate in any way.

Even one death is too many. They are known to be used on children; will it take the death of a simply unruly child at the hands of a taser-wielding cop before we place a ban upon their use?

Some on this thread, I'm afraid, wouldn't have difficulty even with that.

[Beel2112]

87. To borrow a line from Asok the Intern (of Dilbert),

"Don't make me call the analogy police."

As anyone with a modicum of common sense knows, I am of course not advocating "an Unconstitutional pre-judgment death penalty". That's laughably absurd.

What I am advocating is a tool for the police (just like handcuffs, batons, chemical agents and yes, even the sidearm) that has been proven to be effective. Are Tasers the perfect answer? No. Is there a perfect answer? No.

The Taser has been found to have contributed to about 8 deaths between Sept. 1999-Oct. 2004 that I'm aware of. Taser Inc. believes the Taser is used ~50,000-100,000 times a year; that's ~250,000 times, airing on the conservative side (which given the rapid increase in use of Tasers and the age of the data, may not be all that conservative--who knows). Eight deaths out of approximately one-quarter of a million uses? That means a fatality rate of approximately 0.000032, or 0.0032%, and that's assuming the Taser was solely responsible. (Admittedly, this number would be a lot more useful if comparable numbers for say, batons, chemical spray, etc. were available.) Like I said, there's no perfect solution, but the stats show that Tasers are fairly safe. (Again, getting into misuse & abuse of them is another topic; more training, better reporting, etc....)

Eight deaths:
http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/0915taserlist16-ON.html
Taser Inc's estimate:
http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2004/commentary04110102.htm


"Even one person being killed by these things before a criminal judgment has been reached is Unconstitutional in the most extreme way. If that person is actually innocent of any crime..."

WTF? Again, this goes back to the fact there is no perfect solution. Replace your "these things" to mean mace, a baton, or from asphyxiation from being hogtied. Your argument holds true regardless of what killed them; how does this apply specifically to Tasers? That's right--it doesn't.

[Beel2112]

48. LOL

"So what if he had a steel bar"

Yeah, I had to laugh at that. Some of the stuff I read here... :eyes:

[Robb]

58. Yeah, well

fuzzy mittens. Static, pacemakers, death.

Cops need to be better trained when to use wool. :P

[Beel2112]

83. The Static electricity --> pacemaker --> murder by cops is a

problem of epidemic proportions!!! When will those FASCIST PIGS learn?!?!?!?!?!

:sarcasm:

Thanks for the laugh, Robb! ;)

[shanti]

43. who wants to lay odds

that the deceased was a black man? bet had the tazer issue on their news tonite and how minorities are being unfairly PUNISHED..

[Mairead]

63. That's a sucker bet, no thanks.

The tasering victims seem to be disproportionately Black by a factor of Lots.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

60. Getting beaten by five officers after the taser proved ineffective

didn't have anything to do with it?

[Bassic]

61. The problem with the taser...

... is that it is almost certain to be abused in most cases. Before taht little gadget came along, police had to be careful about drawing their guns or their batons. Guns are, of course, a very deadly weapon and cannot be used lightly. Batons, for their part are somewhat messy and have a tendency to leave unsightly marks on one's body, making police nervous about being sued for being over-zealous.

The Taser however, is the perfect little weapon. It doesen't leave marks, nor is it (usually) lethal. That is why the police is so trigger happy with those things. They have the impression that they can just zap away without doing to much damage, and too bad for whoever is being arrested.. or even pulled over. Although this is not true for all policement, or even for the majority, there will always be, in all cities, in all police departments, officers who crave the authority they have over us civilians. The taser to them is like a ice cream cone to a 4 year old.

[Mairead]

62. In 2004, there were 85 taser-related deaths but only 74 cop deaths

attributable to hostile action (bomb, shooting, stabbing, vehicle assault, etc)

The 85 number comes from SCLC (http://sclcnational.org/net/content/item.aspx?s=26812.0.12.2607)

The 74 number comes from a cop-memorial site (http://www.odmp.org/year.php?year=2004 -- see the breakdown in the right sidebar)

Is this the kind of world we want to live in, where civilians are in more danger from cops than cops are from crooks?





Just as a side note, here's a sad case where the cop died from the taser, indirectly:

Investigation revealed that, prior to the arrival of the officers, the suspect (he was 'suspected' of being suicidal, not of having committed any offence) had disconnected the natural gas line from his stove and turned the valve on to its highest setting. The house filled with gas while the man was outside. After the officers chased the man into the home, one of the officers fired a taser at the man. The spark from the taser may have caused the gas to ignite, resulting in the explosion. The suspect the officers were attempted to arrest was taken into custody.

[slaveplanet]

64. a few

corrections

Is this the kind of world we want to live in, where civilians are in more danger from cops than cops are from crooks?

They are not crooks until they have been proven so in a court of law.

they are accused or suspects


here's a sad case where the cop died from the taser
here's an instant Karma case where the cop died from the taser

Things might have been different had he had defense on his mind, as opposed to offence....I agree it's still sad , though not quite accurate

[kentuck]

66. Another one?

It was much less deadly with real bullets...

[slaveplanet]

67. uhh..two

see post #38... although its likely from the beating he received, a taser was involed.

[Lerkfish]

82. to taser apologists...

a couple of questions, and then I'm done with ya....

1. do you own stock in the company?

2. some of you keep saying "its better than getting shot"...well, that's a poor choice, if it really came down to either or. Since the police believe its nonlethal, they are using it for minor offenses where a gun would never be pulled: a traffic stop, a kid not listening, etc., etc. I hope you're not saying a cop would shoot a speeder with an attitude or an unruly teenager, are you? If not, then the comparison is bullhockey.

It should only be used if the situation called for shooting the person, and a taser would be used instead because its slightly less lethal...that's DECREASING the risk of injury in that case.

But that's not what we're seeing here...we're seeing events where a gun would never be drawn, but the person is tasered...that's INCREASING the risk of injury.

Do you not see the nature of the objection? Never mind, I know you probably won't, but I had to make the point that IF tasers REDUCED the risk of injury, they'd be a good thing, but in fact they're being used improperly, often on people ALREADY handcuffed and subdued, who would normally never be shot nor need to be. This is INCREASING the probability of serious injury or death merely needlessly.

thanks for letting me have my say.

[Robb]

84. But that's never the argument

First of all:

1. do you own stock in the company?

No.

As for (2), it's not a substitute for pulling a gun. In events where a gun would be drawn, a gun is still drawn. The taser is an option in what could otherwise be a baton situation.

Do tasers reduce the risk of injury? Probably not. A baton is also a less-than-lethal weapon that kills people from time to time. :shrug: