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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 01:51 AM
Original message
Archbishop hits out at web-based media 'nonsense'
Times Online (The Times & The Sunday Times - Britain)

June 16, 2005

Archbishop hits out at web-based media 'nonsense'

By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent



"THE Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has criticised the new web-based media for “paranoid fantasy, self-indulgent nonsense and dangerous bigotry”. He described the atmosphere on the world wide web as a free-for-all that was “close to that of unpoliced conversation”.

In a lecture to media professionals, politicians and church leaders at Lambeth Palace in London last night, Dr Williams wondered whether a balance could be struck between the professionalism of the classical media and the relative disorder of online communication.

Dr Williams also extended his wide-ranging critique of journalistic practice to the traditional media, arguing that there are “embarrassingly low levels of trust” in the profession and that claims about what is in the public interest need closer scrutiny. He called for a “more realistic, less fevered” approach to stories by journalists and added: “There is a difference between exposing deceptions that sustain injustice and attacking confidentialities or privacies that in some sense protect the vulnerable.”

He attacked the “high levels of adversarial and suspicious probing” that send the clear message that any kind of concealment means “guilty until proved innocent”, and he challenged journalists and broadcasters to attempt to regain lost public confidence. "

--Snip --

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1656135,00.html

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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, this is just ducky. The Achbishop favors "policed conversation"????
He'd be right at home in Stalinist Russia.
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. omg...
Edited on Fri Jun-17-05 01:59 AM by silverweb
"...close to that of unpoliced conversation" ???

:wtf:

Well, we just can't have "unpoliced conversation" now, can we?!

:sarcasm:

WTF is wrong with these people?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
3. That "relative disorder of online communication" that Rowan Williams
complains about, is called FREEDOM! Freedom from the state and the church!

Let the good Archbishop go back to his pastoral duties ministering to Prince Charles and his dog, Camilla.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. The Queen needs to clue in the Archbishop
about free speech.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I'm sure the church has its own sites up. n/t


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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. First it's gays, not it's the internet...when I grew up in the Episcopal
Church, it was tolerant and welcoming, supported civil rights. And we hardly heard from anyone in England.

Now, they can't tolerate gays and think the internet sucks.

Hmmm...glad I'm now a nodenominational nondenominationa.

Peace
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
7. "unpoliced conversation" == "free speech", Saint Jackass..!! n/t
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
8. Do any of you hysterics even know anything about Rowan Williams?
It sure doesn't sound like you do. Read a bit about him and his positions and then come back and try to argue that he's a Stalinist.

Geez people, this place has more histrionics than the drag queen dressing trailer at my old hangout--and at least they were tongue-in-cheek about it.

Besides, the source of this story is one of the leading right wing papers in the world--part of Murdoch's stable. Let's at least wait to see Williams's unedited remarks before declaring his the new target of our Two Minutes Hate.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I am quite familiar with Rowan Williams, thank you
Prior to his becoming Archbishop of Canterbury, he was an implacable opponent of Tony Blair's rush to war in Iraq. Once he got the new job, he changed his tune a bit. Williams is now on a crusade against gay marriage, and his opposition to the war in Iraq is quite muted compared to what it used to be.
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evermind Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
10. This is just cheap sensationalism from the Times. See the context
that the quoted part is from:

Actual human discourse happens within a number of contexts, not in some sort of unified public forum. Actual human learning about most things that matter happens in overlapping sets of relations and conversations. In human life generally, information, significant and otherwise, is shared in such overlapping networks, and absorbed at different levels over time. The journalistic assumption, though, follows a market pattern, in which a product is refined and distributed to a public defined for these purposes as concerned only to acquire it. And where that product is ‘information’, the model is particularly problematic.

So there is a tension at the heart of the journalistic enterprise. Its justification is that it promises to deliver what other sources can’t, information that is needed to equip the reader or viewer or listener for a more free and significant role as a human agent. But at the same time, it is bound to a method and a rhetoric that treats its public as consumers and the information it purveys as a commodity – which is therefore selected, packaged, and, to that degree, inevitably slanted. This unavoidable ‘marketising’ of the process has the effect of creating yet another interest group, the professional producers of information, whose power as suppliers in the market restricts the freedom of others.

Awareness of this paradox – explicit or implicit awareness – is part of what has generated and encouraged the world of ‘new news, exploiting the once unimagined possibilities of the electronic media. It is the world of the weblog and the independent media centre; it is interactive, restlessly conscious of its own transient nature. If the classical journalist just occasionally nurtured the illusion of writing or speaking for posterity, no such fantasy is possible in the electronic world. In one way, it is the reductio ad absurdum of marketised information, indiscriminate information flow. From another perspective, the user’s immediate access to both the producer and the rest of the audience radically undermines some of the power of the producer. Classical media outlets claim to serve democracy but often subvert the possibilities of an active, critically questioning public by assuming the passive undifferentiated public we have been thinking about. The drift in some quarters to near-monopolistic practices, the control of the product by careful monitoring of response and periodic re-designing – these evaporate when we turn to internet journalism. Ian Hargreaves, in his excellent Journalism: Truth or Dare, gives a sharp account of the difference made by these developments; surely this is the context in which genuinely unpalatable truths can still be told, ‘unsullied by the preoccupations of the mainstream media’ (p.259)?

Yes and no. Unwelcome truth and necessary and prompt rebuttal are characteristic of the web-based media. So are paranoid fantasy, self-indulgent nonsense and dangerous bigotry. The atmosphere is close to that of unpoliced conversation – which tends to suggest that the very idea of an appropriate professionalism for journalists begins to dissolve. Many traditional newspapers and broadcasters now offer online versions of their product and many have allowed interactive elements to come into their regular material, for example by printing debates conducted on the web. But they have not thereby abandoned the claims of professional privilege. The question that seems to pose itself is whether a balance can be struck between the professionalism of the classical media and the relative free-for-all of online communication.


Not sure I agree with everything he's saying, but I think you can see the remarks are distorted by being taken out of context. Plainly, he sees good and bad in web-based media, and lessons to be learned by print media.

(Obtained from btcnews, at http://www.btcnews.com/btcnews/index.php?p=977 , where they cover this nicely.)
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Thank you.
Interesting to see the difference between his actual remarks and the little bitty snippets--strung between long strands of Murdoch spin--in the original post.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. One serious error
It can be very easy to control rational, controlled and decent discourse and never be able to silence ruthless propaganda, fantasies or hate talk.

He does not even have the proper perspective yet that truth and lies are themselves engaged in a war. The Internet is a field, Does he want a Geneva Convention of the Online forums? You know what they think of flesh and blood Geneva Conventions.

Have faith in the truth Archbishop. If not this then you'll be holding endless funeral services for the innocent once it descends to 'sticks and stones"- which it already has on a small scale.

The Vatican Pope has chosen as his model an equally good-willed misdirection in that the previous Benedict feared populism, non-Christian movements and questioning of authority even more than the bloody handed civil governments in the hands of elite monsters.

In the us against them, many prelates see themselves, at the exalted top, as blood brothers with an evilly corrupted ruling order. It was easier to see things the way they are when bishops were roasting on stakes in the Emperor's arena. Once the the state order was "Christianized" things got a tad fuzzy.

Let the Internet burn with information. It is either the light of reason or blood. They couldn't, probably wouldn't if they could, have seen through the slide to WWII. but maybe we don't want to absurdly repeat the errors of the past when all our lives and futures are at stake. This is the same thinking where often our Democrats, for the sake of order and our own good, propose to see all the fuss as one scary entity to put down- at the expense of more appeasement of liars by taking away the truth.

This is not a "phony war". It is a last stand for the human voice.

The same fear. The same blackmail. It always chaos and the mob that must be scapegoated when it is the top floor of the house that is riddled with poison, betrayers and incompetents which threatens chaos and worse. A top chosen only by the pushed indifference of a misinformed people. It is wonderful how authorities protect their own from such concerned judgments, such reasoned accountability.

It is not just the media which has lost its credibility, but all who depend on their top down social controls. Stop blaming the victims and
getting mired in de facto hypocrisy.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Thanks for clearing that up. Didn't know the characters involved.
And for sure the mediums are changing fast. I do like the part where he tells the journalists to start reporting so that they do not loose all their viewers.
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pacifictiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 04:39 AM
Response to Original message
12. Actually, based on what I've seen
of irresponsible, sensational tattle-tale type british tabloids, what passes for traditional mainstream press these days, and some of the more hateful and nutcase blogs, he makes an excellent point ....
------------
The way most news is packaged and marketed tends to work against real engagement and deeper public understanding, creating a parallel universe remote from most people’s real experience, he said.

He added: “The assumptions of the way public interest is often appealed to in the present climate look less impressive under scrutiny. “If the profession is to perform its necessary job, some aspects of current practice are lethally damaging to it, and contribute to the embarrassingly low level of trust in the profession......

He recommended a greater willingness to correct mistakes in order to offset “the deep cynicism that is generated by a marked habit of reluctance to apologise or explain”. Dr Williams said that it was important not to scapegoat the media and praised the courage of journalists such as Frank Gardner of the BBC who have promoted “moral change and vision”.
---------------

But then as usual, the press sensationalizes the headlines and distorts what is really being said - and most of you fell for it without reading the full story.

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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Funny that this seems to end up looking like Times propaganda itself.
My there are growing pains with the internet. I don't feel that most of the viewers or readers have gone to the paranoid sites. I think they have gone to places like the DU. Where for sure lots of fears are talked about..but that is because politicians and the press will not do anything to investigate or discuss the sudden onslaught of propaganda.

We are handling it all very well (and such a loss for us a human beings when we used to love the press and trust that the government was not bigger than the truth on the whole).
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Henny Penny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
13. The actual attack was on the mainstream media...
Edited on Fri Jun-17-05 05:06 AM by Henny Penny
interesting that the Times chooses to take the sting out of it by using a VERY misleading title. Typical really!

Here's a link to the speech if you care to read it.
http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/sermons_speeches/050615.htm


edited to add link and comment. By printing this type of headline, the Times has neatly moved the debate on from any criticism levelled at the MSM and adds to the impression that the internet is "a bad thing", to be avoided.
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screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 05:00 AM
Response to Original message
14. To quote the Big Bopper
"That's what I like". I'm on the web for unpoliced conversation. If I wanted to listen to Government propaganda, I'd watch FOX, MSNBC and CNN. I don't need no stinking government stooges to make sense out of nonsense. If I did I'd read the 911 Commission Report.
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Nostradamus Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 05:40 AM
Response to Original message
15. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
18. Unpoliced Conversation! Heavens!
Edited on Fri Jun-17-05 03:37 PM by distantearlywarning
What will we ever do?????

And to think that I've been having unpoliced conversations with other people for 30 years and all this time I never knew how dangerous it was until the Archbishop of Canterbury came along!

:crazy:

ETA: I guess the real question is, do we have enough nosy judgmental assholes in the world to do all of the conversation policing this idiot wants done?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. And if you look at the quote in context (post #10)
you'll see that he isn't saying that there's anything wrong with unpoliced conversation - but that it may not be the arena in which one person can claim to be a professional.
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. An extremely poor choice of words.
No matter how he "meant" it.
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Submariner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
21. Dump the Mods and get the FBI to police the internets
This will make Skinner happy. He won't have to request Mod participation anymore if we can the cops to watch us....oh goody! Just another crock of shit from the perve church.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
23. This fellow has take his share of hits from conservatives
For example, he was roundly denounced for taking the very reasonable position that last December's tsunami last December would (and should) result in people questioning the existence of God.

"The question: "How can you believe in a God who permits suffering on this scale?" is therefore very much around at the moment, and it would be surprising if it weren’t - indeed, it would be wrong if it weren’t."

http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/sermons_speeches/050102.html

He is not a simplistic religious thinker by any stretch, as far as I can tell.
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