Catholics, Protestants Riot During Belfast March; Dozens Injured

[NNN0LHI]

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBGMHTZ3AE.html

BELFAST, Northern Ireland (AP) - Roman Catholic hard-liners assaulted police and Protestant marchers in a religiously polarized part of Belfast, and nearly 30 people were injured, Northern Ireland police said Saturday.

Friday night's violence flared as a parade by Protestants of the Orange Order brotherhood passed a crowd of hostile Catholics on the edge of the Ardoyne district. Hundreds of police in riot gear kept the two sides apart, but Catholic men and youths spent more than an hour hurling bottles, bricks and at least 10 gasoline bombs at the police lines.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland said 18 officers were injured, but none seriously. The 11 injured civilians included a 14-year-old girl with a broken arm.

The rioting fizzled out once police deployed mobile water cannons to douse the Catholic crowd.

[rzemanfl]

1. Don't these people know better than to fight about religion? We

never fight about it in this enlightened country or try to impose American religious beliefs on others...

Meanwhile, in the Bridge Market: Brooklyn Bridge up 1 point,
Sunshine Skyway down 2 points, Golden Gate up 1 point...

[mcscajun]

32. That's the best "bridge for sale' line I've seen in quite some time.

:)

[saigon68]

113. Where's the POPE in all of this

Irish Confetti= Cobblestones.

[NashVegas]

87. They Are Not Fighting About Religion

They are fighting over political control.

[Ken Burch]

2. The Catholic hardliners shouldn't have attacked, but at the same time

The Protestants should stop all the marches.

The whole "marching season" is nothing but an ugly festival of right-wing Ulster Unionist triumphalism.

Every march is basically a way of saying "we won in 1690, so everything we've done since then is justified and we have the right to treat Catholics as a lower life form for all eternity."

They should grow up and give that a rest.

[cap]

4. remember Clinton actually put a dampner on all this...

I really thought things were going to heal in N. Ireland and then Bush came along.

[tjwmason]

11. Nothing to do with Clinton

There was a period of relative quiet (the important word being relative) which began when secret negotiations between the British government and the I.R.A. lead to a 'cease-fire' (more honoured in the breach than in the observance). Since then negtiations has undoubtedly produced movement forwards, however various problems have lead to the more extreme parties on both sides gaining more power. Things are no where near as bad as they once were, but they're not as good as they could be.

To my mind Clinton was not much of an issue, his concentration did sway things a little, but I'm still irritated by his decision to give Gerry Adams a visa way back. The best policy for the American government is to stay out, stop American funding of the I.R.A. (as best they can), and allow the two governments (British and Irish) to work together with all parties in N.I., hopefully to reach a succesful conclusion.

Bush has caused enough real problems without us inventing extra fake ones.

[Henny Penny]

17. Nothing would have happened if Clinton hadn't been giving

certain parties a gentle push!

Come back Bill!

[cap]

26. American Irish Catholics will fund the IRA

as long as systemic discrimination exists.

Bill Clinton was trying to bring both sides together; bring Sein Fein into the political process and end the system discrimination against Catholics in North Ireland.

Seriously, if the Daughters of the Confederacy insisted on having marches in the South in predominately Black neighborhoods, there would be problems.

[bennywhale]

36. Yeah cos the IRA are really nice guys who protect their community

rather than shoot their kneecaps and elbows off and murder them.

I think ignorant Irish Americans should think twice before giving money to a group who blows babies to pieces.

[Rich Hunt]

73. just curious

How many Irish Americans do you know who have given to the IRA? I personally don't know any.

Why does every thread on NI dissolve into a discussion of what nameless Irish Americans do with their money?

[cap]

78. actually I do know Irish Americans who have donated to the IRA

not me...Kiss me, I'm Polish :) .

There's a lot of stories about the other side not being perfect gentlemen. People remember things like priests tossed into a barrel with nails driven into the inside and then rolled down a hill.

[trebizond]

83. both sides are assholes--they doesn't make it OK to fund either side

[Ken Burch]

77. And Unionists should think twice about voting for fascists like Paisley

whose words cause as much terrorism as the IRA has ever committed.

[bennywhale]

111. I would agree that unionists should indeed consider carefully before

voting for Paisley, but the Nationalist community should think very carefully before voting for Sinn Fein. Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinnes have blood up to their elbows.

As for Paisley's "Words cause as much terrorism as the IRA has ever committed." That is obviously not true considering Paisley has no private army partial to blowing up Shops and Pubs. You may have been wiser to direct your attack at one of the parties linked with Loyalist terrorism.

[Ken Burch]

115. Paisley, though, has this kind of czar-like power to start pogroms

by launching a new round of anti-Papist invective.

He doesn't have formal connections to Prod paras, but he does have a way of saying things that tends to give paras their cue to launch more mayhem.

It was Paisley who provoked the violent confrontations at Drumcree where the Orangemen were insisting on forcing an angry, triumphalist march through a Catholic neighborhood, fighting for the meaningless principle that "We have the right to walk the King's highway."
(As if they were just taking a quiet stroll after supper.)

And Paisley was the one who led the violent resistance to Sunningdale in the 1970's. Had Sunningdale been allowed to stay in place, thirty more years of misery would have been avoided.

Everytime Paisley says "we will have peace, but not peace at any price" you can assume that Catholics will die.

[bennywhale]

118. I'm no fan of Paisley but he is not on the same scale as

McGuiness and Adams who have both been personally involved in the deliberate murder of innocent people. Something i find disguting and cowardly.

Paisley and his fire and brimstone may raise tensions, however he does not direct "Irish warriors" to bravely sneak into fish and chip shops for example plant a bomb and spread the body parts of people buying cod for supper across the walls and windows of the shop.

[Ken Burch]

121. Actually, Adams and McGuiness don't do that anymore.

I would never vote Sinn Fein. If I were to support any party in N.I., it would be the Socialist Environmental Alliance led by Eamonn
McCann.

The problem is, if you insist on excluding Sinn Fein, you permanently disenfranchise and disempower the majority of the Catholic community, because they aren't going to stop voting Sinn Fein and go back to voting SDLP.

An executive and assembly without Sinn Fein, then, would be just as unfair and repressive towards the Catholic minority as Old Stormont was, since the DUP and UUP would always gang up to stop anything positive coming to the Catholic community.

As to your comparisons of Paisley, Adams and McGuiness you are missing a fundamental point here:

Adams and McGuiness, bloody as their pasts were, are trying to move their organizations AWAY from violence and towards reconciliation. Paisley is trying to stop reconciliation and keep the cycle of violence going. His party has specifically campaigned IN FAVOR of discrimination against the Catholic community.
Paisley has never denounced, to my knowledge, and paramilitary attacks against Catholics.

He is a terrorist, he just doesn't use a gun to do it.

[bennywhale]

127. Do you KNOW that Adams and Mcguinness are no longer members

of the IRA. If you have evidence i suggest you ring Tony Blair.

[Ken Burch]

128. Adams' and McGuinness' membership or non-membership in the IRA

is no longer relevant.

What does matter is that both of them(Adams in particular)have taken the lead in persuading the Republican movement to abandon the armed struggle and to switch to political methods. This isn't a simple matter of saying "nobody do that anymore" and that being the end of it.

If they'd tried something like that, they would both have been shot instantly and nothing would have been achieved.

What they are trying to do should be compared to police trying to diffuse a hostage situation. You don't do that by barking orders at the hostage-takers. You try to reduce the tensions and negotiate, so that the situation can be ended without bloodshed if at all possible.

What I meant, obviously, is that Adams and McGuinness themselves are no longer participating in the use of force, but are working on the political side. You should acknowledge that this is a major improvement, rather than just saying, in effect "nothing has changed, it's still all the IRA's fault."

That is, if it ever WAS all the IRA's fault.

[bennywhale]

129. Of course there is progress and Adam's and Mcguinness

have appeared to accept democratic processes. But appearences can be deceptive. Adams said recently, (within last two years ) of the IRA "they haven't gone away, you know" to a press conference addressing among others the British Press and therefore the British public when discussing decommisioning. And yes, that is said in context. Now that by anyone's imagination that is a threat and he meant it as a threat. It is a threat to use violence upon innocent people if things don't go their way. Imagine if the Greens or the Lib Dems or any other political party turned up with a list of demands and a private army, and deployed veiled threats if those demands could not be satisfied. That is what we are dealing with here.

And Mcguinness recently told the Mcartney sisters to be "very careful". An another obvious threat and meant as a threat. These brave women were travelling to America to dispel the myths and romanticism that Americans have of the IRA after their brother was "gutted from groin to kneck" by these irish warriors, and Mcguinness tried to scare them. A coward, a murderer, and a bully.

The IRA are murderers and gangsters who terrify, maim, cripple, and kill their own community in horrific numbers, and when it comes down to it Mcguinness and Adams are linked to these people and are influential members of this group. To say their involvement with the IRA is irrelevant is ludicrous. But hey things are better.

Mcguinness and Adams are not participating in the political process because they've suddenly become nice people (as opposed to the sorts of people who blow babies to pieces in shopping streets and pubs in England and Northern Ireland) they did it because they failed. The IRA were defeated and violence was leading nowhere. I don't trust people like that who could so easily slip back into the culture of murdering innocents if they don't get there own way.

But hey things are better.

[tjwmason]

43. You're conflating two issues

You seem to assume that I'm in favour of these marches and of the Orange Order.

Seriously, if the Daughters of the Confederacy insisted on having marches in the South in predominately Black neighborhoods, there would be problems.

I'm not sure that the Daughters of the Confederacy is a perfect analogy, somewhat closer would be the K.K.K.

[Ken Burch]

97. The best American analogy to this would be if

a white town in South Dakota insisted on running its Fourth of July parade route through the Oglala reservation.

[CBHagman]

33. You've forgotten the involvement of George Mitchell...

...among other things. The involvement of the United States was important to progress in the peace process, though by no means should our then-government take the lion's share of the credit. However, do look at the timeline in the link below.

http://www.historyonthenet.com/Chronology/timelinenorthernireland.htm

And if the way Bill Clinton is treated in Ireland is any indication, he's already in the hearts of the Irish people. Contrast that with how Bush was received both in the U.K. (on a state visit, no less) and in Ireland. With Clinton, it's a "hundred thousand welcomes." With Bush, it's more like "a hundred thousand protesters" (the latter figure from the U.K.).

On edit: I should clarify something. When G.W. Bush made his historic state visit to the United Kingdom, he was more or less kept from the public while in London. There were literally thousands of protesters on the streets of the city, and security was extremely high.

Contrast that with Clinton, who loves to do walkabouts and drove his security detail insane while greeting crowds in Ireland. We will never, never see Bush received in any country in the world the way Clinton was, and it's not all due to post-9/11 security concerns. Bush doesn't work unscreened audiences.

[tjwmason]

39. I certainly have not forgotten the great work of Sen. Mitchell

My point was that whilst Clinton did assist matters in some ways, not everything he did was good. The peace-process was not a Clinton achievement, and it's semi-collapse is not a Bush one either.

Bush's state visit to Britain was an utter fiasco, the demands of his security folk were quite disgusting (they wanted imunity from prosecution in the event that they shot an innocent Briton; this despite the fact that British diplomatic security has a far better track-record than American). The contrast with Clinton in that respect makes itself entirely.

[Darth_Kitten]

9. Agreed!

:)

Edit:

http://www.answers.com/topic/orange-order

[tjwmason]

14. The Orange Order is a thoroughly nasty organisation.

Its sole purpose is anti-Catholicism.

[Trajan]

16. Well Said ...

EXACTLY my own thinking ....

The marches MUST end, and the sectarian extremes must be reduced in influence .....

William of Orange has been dead for 300 years now .... It's time to stop worshipping his brutality ....

[bettyellen]

29. they march in catholic areas on purpose, it's a display of might....

and they look pretty stupid in those bowler hats, too!

[puddycat]

54. Once again Anti-Protestantism rears its ugly head.

Every single time the Catholics attack Protestants, its a cover-up. there are whole neighborhoods of protestants which have been abandoned by families because of vicious Catholic attacks. Read about it, dude. Both sides are wrong sometimes, but I'm sick of this constant attack on the Protestants.

I live in a state founded by the Catholics, and beleive me the prejudice and bias from Catholics is great in this state. On the job, if you happpen to come up for promotion against a person who happens to be Catholic, and the boss and him both happen to belong to the Knights of Columbus, you can bet your booty who will get the job, and it isn't the poor Protestant.

I'm sick of religion in general. sick of it. It causes more hatred and evil than anything on Earth. But at the same time I'm sick of Catholics acting like they are victims--they certainly are not because they have caused most of the problems in Christianity historically. A pox on both their houses.

[Ken Burch]

56. This is only a "religious" issue because the British government

has spent three hundred years encouraging the Scots planter population they brought into the North to believe that the native population were inherently evil and savage.

The Irish nationalist movement, historically, had a mix of Catholic and Protestant supporters. Theobald Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet, Charles Stuart Parnell, Sean O'Casey(whose real name was actually Johnnie Kassie, reflecting his Dutch Huguenot ancestry)and Erskine Childers were all Protestant Irishmen who supported Irish independence and unity. And Irish Protestant writers such as Oscar Wilde and George Bernard Shaw were also on the right side of history.

The fact is, the Nationalist side is a liberation movement, and the Unionist side is a reactionary campaign to preserve a status quo based on bigotry.

And I hope, by the way, that tjwmason, who implied that my position was antidemocratic, would join me in rejecting the "Democratic Unionist" demand that the Northern Ireland Executive be made up exclusively of the DUP, the UUP and the minority Catholic SDLP, with the deliberate exclusion of the Sinn Fein Party, a party I would never personally support, but a party that now has(and will always have)the support of the overwhelming majority of Catholic and Nationalist voters in the Six Counties. That type of political arrangement is what Unionist politicians think of as "democracy."

You simply cannot compare it to living in a U.S. state with a Catholic majority. Such a state is still a minority component of a nation with a Protestant majority, and in this country we have been past that particular division since at least 1960.

[puddycat]

57. the mindset of hate is institutionalized in Rome. New Pope is example

How can people be expected to get along when at the highest levels of Rome hatred is institutionalized? Hate begets hate. The Fundy Protestants in America are a good example.

[Ken Burch]

64. And in the Republic, the Catholic population cares less and less

about what the Pope thinks.

Furthermore, if you're going to insist on bringing religion into this, you should be aware of the facts that

1)in 1690, the Protestant champion, William of Orange, HAD THE SUPPORT OF THE VATICAN against James II, the leader of the Catholic forces.

2)the Catholic hirearchy in Ireland and Britain have historically been implacably opposed to Irish independence and reunification, and have done everything in their power to stop it.

[Ken Burch]

107. The mindset of hate is institutionalized in other places as well

such as Bob Jones University(home of the scriptural defense of racial segregation)which gave Ian Paisley an honorary degree.

[Bridget Burke]

88. Yes, Maryland was founded by the Catholic Lord Baltimore.

But there were always Protestants among the colonists--and they eventually became the majority. Religious conflicts in the Mother Country were reflected in the colony. In 1692, the Church of England became the official church there.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761570698_11/Maryland.html

Charles Carroll of Carrollton was the only Catholic signer of the Declaration of Independance. The English Penal Laws--famous in Ireland but also enforced in the North American colonies--had made him ineligible to hold office or even vote.

[patcox2]

92. Why can't they chant "fuck the pope" in their own neighborhood?

Oh no, the nice peaceful orange orders just have to march through the catholic areas, don't they, chanting "fuck the pope" and celebrating their military victory over the Irish 400 years ago.

The equivalent would be if the US had "Union Society" members, and every year on the anniversary of Appomattox we dressed up and paraded through the capitals of Alabama and North and South carolina singing songs about the dirty rebel bastards and screaming "fuck the south, fuck Robert E. Lee."

Poor protestants, they can't even taunt and intimidate the actholics anymore, they can't even engage in a public hate festival of bigotry without those evil catholics taking offense. Boo fucking hoo.

[puddycat]

96. LOL did you object to blacks protesting in white neighborhoods, too??????

huh? So, you are saying the Protestants can't protest in Catholic neighborhoods but I betcha you don't have any problem with any minority group here in America protesting in non-minority neighorhoods. There is a lot of hypocrisy to go around.

And remember, this is not about individual Catholics there or here. Half my family is Catholic and I love them to bits, but I don't love what their Church has done and I don't love what the Protestant Fundy churches have done. The Catholic church is one of the most powerful and richest institutions in the world, they have committed atrocities throughout history because during most of history they WERE Christianity and even now they hide pedophile priests, suppress women's rights, etc. Isn't time that people rebel against this instead of defending the shit out of it?

[patcox2]

101. So the protestants in Northern Ireland are a downtrodden minority?

Is that what your suggesting, that this is a civil rights march? Its not, its a Klan rally. Absolutely absurd analogy, stupid attempt top tie up the cause of northern ireland nationalists with american blacks. No comparison. Quite the opposite, in fact, the catholics of northern ireland only developed their civil rights movement after being inspired by the black civil rights movement.

Next your gonna tell me Ian Paisley is like Martin Luther King, or Gandhi.

[bennywhale]

112. "The catholics only developed their civil rights movement after

being inspired by the black civil rights movement".

Why does every event or movement in the world have to be linked back to something that happened in America. Do Americans not understand things if it is not put (falsely) within an American context. Its as if the world can't independently act without American influence or permission. Its crap

[Ken Burch]

116. That's not the point, bennywhale.

It was actually a historical fact that Northern Irish Catholics modelled that movement after the 60's U.S. Civil Rights struggle.
This is why Bloody Sunday was such a mindnumbingly stupid thing for the British Army to do.

If the NONVIOLENT movement had been allowed to grow and achieve its objectives without harassment or retribution, there would have been no troubles and the Provos would have withered away to nothing.

[bennywhale]

117. "NON-VIOLENT" includes the snipers and nail bombers who

were ever present at the civil rights marches and within the movement. Bloody Sunday is a murderous scar on the British army, and the rights movement in Northern Ireland was brave noble and right, however the IRA escalated and exacerbated conflict with the British forces deliberately and consistently. They did this to provoke, and to whip up the cycle of violence. This consolidated their position of power as the defenders of the catholic community.

So i agree with you that Bloody Sunday was counter productive for the British ruling elite as well as being morally abhorrent, however you must be careful when showering righteous praise on the Catholic community. The IRA are a murderous, power crazy, oppressive, undemocratic, and morally defunct gangsters, who have hijacked the Catholic communities desires and oppressed them through violence.

(btw Your assumption that the American civil rights movement is some kind of original model or template for civil action reinforces my point and highlights your outlook of American 'exceptionalism' isolationism and uniqueness)

[Ken Burch]

120. I was not ever being an apologist for the IRA, and you know it.

But they would never have had anywhere near the number of recruits they had if only the Civil Rights marchers had been left alone to march. That isn't being an apologist, that is recognizing the reality of the situation. It is also a response to the silly Unionist line that the whole thing is the IRA's fault.

Also, speaking about the Civil Rights movement in Northern Ireland does not mean exclusively prasing Catholics. Many of its activists, including Ivan Cooper, MP, were in fact PROTESTANTS.

And the Civil Rights activists in Northern Ireland SAID they were inspired by what African Americans did. I wasn't bringing American exceptionalism into it at all.

[Lilith Velkor]

93. Oh, po widdle pwoddessents

:nopity:

[puddycat]

98. many victims are Catholics: children attacked by pedophile priests

Many victims of Rome are Catholics themselves: children molested by pedophile priests, women who the Church still see as 2nd class citizens, women whose Church actively seeks to take away their rights regarding their own body, etc. (and yes, I absolutely know that other churches commit these crimes also!)

The reason Rome can get away with so very much and doesn't give a shit about molested children, etc., is that they are so powerful and rich that to dare criticize them is to draw a target on your own back. So shoot away, bub, shoot away.

[Lilith Velkor]

99. WTF does that have to do with jobs in MD?

Are you assuming I am Catholic and trying to upset me or something?

No dice, bubba. Try being pagan sometime. Rome didn't wipe us all out, nor did the Protestants whose descendants comprise 55% of the US population (poor oppressed minority!), but it wasn't for lack of trying.

If you can't handle that, try being a Jew or Muslim. *Then* you can really trot out the victim routine. And the beauty part is: you can still hate Catholics! Wotta deal, eh?

[puddycat]

100. This is about being able to criticize freely a powerful & sick institution

Please don't resort to cheap tricks like calling anyone who dares criticize others as being a name--whether it racist, a hater, etc. It really indicates that you have NOTHING. You can't think of an agrument so you scream: hater! You can't go around accusing everyone of being racist, haters, etc. just because you don't like what they have to say. Don't you feel bad when freepers accuse you of being un-patriotic because you don't worship B*sh? Its the same type of thing.

I have the right to critiize. This has nothing to do with hating Catholics--in fact I love many many individual Catholics. INSTEAD, THIS HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH HATING INSTITUTIONS THAT HAVE TERRORIZED HUMANITY FOR A THOUSAND YEARS. And Rome continues to this day to continue its hatred, hide pedophiles, etc. When most people in Europe were dirt poor, Rome used its riches to build monumentally huge cathedrals, while the people suffered, ignorant in their faith that it was okay because all the glory would be theirs after death!

How many thousands of people did Rome kill in its crusades? How many many hundreds of years were women forced to submit to the their husband's beatings because of church teachings? How many thousands upon thousands of people were forced to convert to Catholicism against their will--Indians, Africans, etc.
I don't see any signs that Rome has changed. None at all. How many billions of dollars does Rome suck from its parishioners? How many poor people does Rome actually help with that money?

You should be ashamed of yourself. You should be accusing Rome of being hateful, not I. Its not I that helped Hitler during the 1930s--its the Holy Roman Church. It not I that forced millions of Africans to abandon their native religion for the white man's religion--its the Holy Roman Church. How anyone can continue to support most organized religion is beyond me.

Don't kill the messenger. The messenger only speaks the truth, and you know it.

[patcox2]

102. If thats what your calling your bigotry now, good for you.

Catholics in northern ireland are second class citizens, only recently given full legal equality. Their unemployment rate is quadruple that of the protestants. This is not about criticizing the catholic church, its about intimidating and oppressing a racial group, its about keeping the protestant stranglehold on political and economic power. And using religion to justify it so that simpletons like you actually think its about the catholic church and the pope.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lilith Velkor]

104. Oh, but Protestants get a free pass, right?

I don't care what brand of Christianity anyone subscibes to because it's all evil to me. I know some Christians who are alright, but take a look at the history of Christianity. The moment they thought they were rid of us they set to slaughtering one another. The true god of the Christians is Mars.

>Don't you feel bad when freepers accuse you of being un-patriotic because you don't worship B*sh?<

No, nor do I feel bad when Christians accuse me of worshipping their devil. Even fools are entitled to their opinions.

They are not, however, entitled to their own facts. Your assertion that Protestants are some poor oppressed minority in the state of Maryland is laughably absurd, and I call bullshit.

[puddycat]

123. so you seem to agree with me on some points--that's a start LOL n/t

[Ken Burch]

105. puddycat, you don't have to defend the Ulster Unionists

to protect people's right to criticize the Catholic Church. Many people support the Irish Nationalist cause, or simply just treatment for the Catholic minority in Ulster and are also deeply critical of abuses of power on the part of the Catholic Church.

I would point you to the recent outcry in the Irish Republic over imprisonment of young women in hard labor camps called the Magdalene Laundries. Young women were sent to those camps for "offenses" ranging from having a child out of wedlock to their parent's fears that, even though they hadn't had sex, they might want to.

Once in those camps(run by the Magdalene Sisters)those young women were held, not only til they reached adulthood, but UNTIL THEY DIED.

They were forced to work twelve hour days hand-cleaning blood-and-excrement covered laundry from hospitals and nursing homes.

In many cases their families were not told of their whereabouts.

The Irish people, when they heard of this story, responded with a massive outcry and the Laundries were finally closed.

So don't you dare imply that only Ulster Protestants are speaking truth to power when it comes to the Catholic Church.

Those marches are not about dissent against Rome. They are about one group of people keeping dominance over another, puddycat.

Google "Magdalene Sisters", or find the film of the same name(which is available on DVD)to learn the full story.

Joni Mitchell also wrote an incredible song about this, which she recorded with The Chieftains accompanying her.

[mom cat]

3. Does Christianity have anything to do with Jesus anymore?

[Webster Green]

5. Not so much....

...as John Stewart would say.

[T_i_B]

41. In the case of Ulster...

...you do often wonder. Religion seems to have been perverted into something tribal and hateful in Northern Ireland and it pains me as a Christian to see this stuff going on. We need to realize that first and foremost we are Christians, not members of a particular denomination.

[Another Bill C.]

6. The parade was being forced through

a Catholic neighborhood. This is like the KKK marching through the ghetto. They do many of these parades every year and the results are entirely predictable but, with friendly reporting, create a lot of sympathy for the marchers.

Any story bylined by Shawn Pogatchnik is not reliable. His stories have, for years, been biased in a pro-union direction.

[TahitiNut]

7. "... mobile water cannons to douse the Catholic crowd."???

Does that make them Baptists? :silly:

[knowbody0]

15. the invasion and occupation of another sovereign nation

all is well on the northern front. NOT

[bennywhale]

44. Well the Protestants in NOrthern Ireland have been there longer than

you and your family have been in North America. So perhaps you should consider leaving

[Rich Hunt]

48. it ain't about religion, pal

I look forward to the time when you can post the REAL explanation for this conflict.

[patcox2]

91. You anti-protestant you.

Whats wrong with using mobile water cannons to force your "fuck the pope" parade into the catholic neighborhood?

[fasttense]

8. Just give Ireland (including the north) back to Ireland and most of these

problems will go away. When the English invaded Ireland they turned the Catholic Irish into serfs. Ever since, the English have treated the Irish like second class citizens. Can't understand why they wouldn't want an English march through a Catholic area?

Ireland should belong to the Irish, including the North.

[Kagemusha]

10. And what about the Protestant Irish?

Does England take them home with it?

[bobbieinok]

13. weren't Scottish protestants moved to Ireland to create a Protestant force

beat the Catholic Irish???????

if I recall correctly, Catholics couldn't vote or own land until sometime in the 19th century

weird because Irish Catholics preserved Christianity in the early part of the middle ages......and then in the 600s Irish missionaries took Christianity back into mainland Europe

see, for example, Saint Killian who went to Wuerzburg and was murdered with his two companions in 689

a 'good southern baptist', I had never heard of Killian until 1989 when I was in Germany.....I visited Wuerzburg because the city is fascinating and they were celebrating his life and commemorating the 1300th (!) anniversary of his death

[bennywhale]

46. A misinformed biew of history. See Bede on holy islend in Northumberland

and the many christian monks around the isles of scotland and north east england.

[patcox2]

103. Ummmm, there were no protestants in Bede's time.

Just christians.

[bennywhale]

109. Exactly. And that was the point i was answering about preserving

christianity. I didn't mention protestantism as there were no protestants until the reformation.

[Trajan]

18. What about the Irish Protestants ? ...

Are Irish Catholics going to force them to renounce their protestant beliefs if Ireland becomes whole ? .. is THAT what they fear ? ..

WHY should England take them ? ... They already have a home in Ireland ... right ? ..

What are you saying ?

[Ken Burch]

21. They can stay. They just have to get used

to living as equals with the Catholics.

No reason they should be resisting that anymore.

Besides, Ulster will end up with a Catholic majority in the next few decades anyway, so it is only a question of when, and how, Unionist dominance ends.

Might as well begin a graceful transition to equality and Irishness now.

[tjwmason]

40. Good to see that you have totally rejected democracy.

A few points to make. They are in the majority and they wish to remain British; to change their status without their consent is Imperialism of the highest order.

Secondly, the old canard about a Catholic majority is pure nonsense. It has been floating around for a generation, yet the percentage of votes received by Unionist parties compared with Nationalist parties is basically unchanged.

My position is rather simple - the people of Northern Ireland should be allowed to chose their own status. They can remain part of the Union if they want, they can join the Irish Republic if they want, they can become a independent state if they want, they can declare themselves to be the 51st U.S. state if they want.

Will you support democracy and self-government, and agree with that position; or will you remain Imperialist and tell them how they should be governed?

[Ken Burch]

53. Good to see that you are encouraging a bigoted, violent right-wing

resistance campaign.

And it's not a true majority, given that it only exists due to deliberate manipulation of boundary lines(the Unionists, let me point out to American readers, are not a majority in THE HISTORIC PROVINCE OF ULSTER. They put three Ulster counties in the Republic to create this mythical "Protestant majority." And for decades, violent and unprovoked attacks on Catholic/Nationalist areas of the Six Counties were used to drive Catholics out of the area to maintain the artificial majority.

Why should I encourage the Unionists to go on doing everything they campaign to prevent justice and equality from going into place with their irrational obsession with "staying British" when the arguements for that are just the same as the arguements for the
"states right's" resistance to civil rights for African Americans.

You should be helping do the work to get Unionists to face the reality that what they are fighting for is now and will always be inherently injustice.

Majority does not ALWAYS make right.

Sometimes justice and equality have to come first.

(BTW, by ethnic ancestry I myself am mainly Scottish Presbyterian, so logically I should be defending the Unionist position. But I took the time to educate myself on the realities of the issue.)

[Lilith Velkor]

94. Why can't they go to Britain?

That's where I would go if I wanted to be British.

[PassingFair]

124. There are many more Irish in England...

then Ulstermen in Ireland.
Should they just swap homes?

[muriel_volestrangler]

106. The 2001 census showed Catholics as the largest group aged under 25

.xls table: http://www.nisra.gov.uk/census/Excel/Standardtables/s305.xls

And it might be a higher age (27 or 28?) if it wasn't for a lack of Catholic men - who I suspect leave to get jobs elsewhere (Catholic unemployment is still about twice that of Protestants, for those over the age of 25).

In another 30 years, the Catholics may be the majority of those of voting age. Nationalist/unionist voting does not go precisely with the sect, of course, but there's likely to be a trend.

[tjwmason]

12. With respect - you're talking out of your rear-end

If the British left, they'd just continue with the civil war.

This is about a split in Northern Ireland. We gave away as much of Ireland as wanted to go. Consistent polling in N.I. indicates a large majority there favour staying British; and the Unionist parties (those who favour staying British) win the conderable majority of votes at elections.

Can't understand why they wouldn't want an English march through a Catholic area?

Quite frankly, this reveals why you don't know what you're talking about.

This was an Irish march; they were all Irish folk, just they were Unionist Irish (favouring ties with the rest of the U.K.), and protestant Irish.

The British government has declared its position on N.I. to consist of two principles. First, there is no selfish British interest in N.I. - if they want to leave to-morrow, they are welcome to. Secondly, the British government will not abandon the majority of people in N.I. if they want to remain British. These could be summed-up in two words "self-determination", if the people of N.I. want to remain British, they will do; if they wish to stop being British, they will do.

[Henny Penny]

20. "We gave away as much of Ireland as wanted to go."

How generous you were!

In fact the boundary commission drew up a little statelet that contained enough unionists to be viable (just). I remember my granny telling me that people went to bed one night thinking what country will we wake up in tomorrow?? Those in Antrim and Down knew their fates were sealed, but the rest...?? Subsequent anti-catholic pogroms helped copper fasten it by encouraging nationalists (by not too subtle methods) to leave.

As far as I am aware, there hasn't been a referendum on the border question for at least a generation.

Northern Ireland is yet another example of the impact of colonialism. It is so easy to create a problem like this, and so very hard to fix it!

I dread to think how long it will take to fix the US's colonial problems.

[Ken Burch]

22. Excuse me, but the main reason the Protestants want to stay British

is that the British government terrified them with decades of lies about what life in a unified Ireland would be like.

As that syphilitic reactionary madman Randolph Churchill put it
"The Orange Card is the one to play."

The British government has no right to act as if they aren't responsible for this division.

[Henny Penny]

24. No need to excuse yourself Ken!

I don't disagree with you.

The British govt. created the mess that is Northern Ireland, and went off and left it to fester. They only started taking steps to sort it all out when Bill Clinton forced their foot to the fire.

Now Bill is no longer in a psoition to do that, and W probably thinks Norn Iron is next to Iraq, so no pressure coming on the UK govt to fix things any more.... hence slide....

[Ken Burch]

25. That was directed at tjmason

Who, for some utterly mysterious reason, defends the Unionist
belief that Ulster is theirs by divine right.

[Henny Penny]

27. I thought as much...

but just took the opportunity to post my own little rant. ;-)

:toast:

[tjwmason]

38. The 'mysterious reason' is my belief in self-determination.

Which appears to be a minority perspective round here.

Whilst the majority of folk in Northern Ireland wish to remain within the U.K., then I will defend them to the uttermost. If the majority of folk in Northern Ireland wish to join with the Irish Republic, then I will support them in that endeavour.

The imposition of a settlement from outside N.I. - whether from London, from Dublin, from those who fund the killers of the I.R.A. in Boston, or even from Alaska - would simply make matters worse. This is a decision to be made by the people of Northern Ireland - know serious person believes that the majority of them wish to join the Irish Republic.

I have a good deal more sympathy for Unionist people in Northern Ireland who have faced the terrorism, criminality, and thuggery of the I.R.A. and the equally bad 'loyalist' paramilitaries, than I have for those pontificating on the matter from outside the province.

Let's leave these folk alone to make their own decisions about their future; let's assist them in that - but to make the decision for them (as you propose) is far more an act of Imperialism than the continuation of the Union of N.I. and Great Britain.

[Ken Burch]

59. You are the only person I've ever heard make the arguement

That removing an area from the British Empire could be called "Imperialism."

Also, the Catholic and Nationalist people have face just as much terrorism and probably more from the Unionists. And historically, the Unionist and British authorities almost NEVER came to their aid.
This is one reason no Six Counties Catholic ever wanted to join the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

And if Unionists really cared about stopping terrorism, they would not have encouraged it be repeatedly interrupting the power-sharing mechanisms of the Good Friday Agreement with pointless demands that the IRA get rid of all its rusting old weapons in a humiliating and pointless act of surrender.

The power-sharing Executive, had the Unionists simply done the right thing and left it in place, would have done much more to end the armed struggle, which I agree should be ended on both sides(including the armed struggle of the British Army, who made such sterling contributions to peace as Bloody Sunday and the attempted murder of Bernadette Devlin McAliskey in her own home for no reason)
than any act of ceremonial "decommissioning."

[Ken Burch]

60. Subject: You are the only person I've ever heard make the arguement

That removing an area from the British Empire could be called "Imperialism."

Also, the Catholic and Nationalist people have face just as much terrorism and probably more from the Unionists. And historically, the Unionist and British authorities almost NEVER came to their aid.
This is one reason no Six Counties Catholic ever wanted to join the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

And if Unionists really cared about stopping terrorism, they would not have encouraged it be repeatedly interrupting the power-sharing mechanisms of the Good Friday Agreement with pointless demands that the IRA get rid of all its rusting old weapons in a humiliating and pointless act of surrender.

The power-sharing Executive, had the Unionists simply done the right thing and left it in place, would have done much more to end the armed struggle, which I agree should be ended on both sides(including the armed struggle of the British Army, who made such sterling contributions to peace as Bloody Sunday and the attempted murder of Bernadette Devlin McAliskey in her own home for no reason)
than any act of ceremonial "decommissioning."

And it was the Unionist community that you have such sympathy that guaranteed the continuation of The Troubles in the 1970's by their violent campaign to stop implementation of the Sunningdale Agreement, which would have established peace and power-sharing WITHOUT putting Ulster into the Republic. But no, it would have meant treating pro-Irish people as human beings, and your beloved Unionists couldn't do that, because they didn't want to, and what THEY wanted was all that mattered. Now, and in the hour of our deaths, AMEN.

[tjwmason]

42. It's not generosity - it's democracy.

The position of the British government is that the people should choose their own status. Will you agree with that, or will you throw democracy and self-determination into the rubbish-bin and give them a 'solution' imposed from the outside (i.e., an Imperialist 'solution').

As far as I am aware, there hasn't been a referendum on the border question for at least a generation.

Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Northern Ireland would vote to join the Irish Republic? If so, I suggest that you put the bong down before talking politics.

There is a consistent majority vote for Unionist Parties, and a consistent minority vote for Nationalist Parties. No person who knows anything at all about N.I., her people and her politics seriously believes that the majority there wish to join the Irish Republic.

[Henny Penny]

49. People in Northern Ireland are often forced to vote for

"the lesser of two evils". This works both ways. Unionists might vote for the SDLP to keep Sinn Fein out and nationalists might vote for a moderate unionist to keep out the DUP etc. So the simple toting up of the votes for each camp is a very inaccurate way to assess the views of the population.

"The position of the British government is that the people should choose their own status." When was the last referendum on this????

"Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Northern Ireland would vote to join the Irish Republic? If so, I suggest that you put the bong down before talking politics."

I am seriously suggesting we do not know the answer to this question as it has not been asked. No need to put down, or take up, the "bong".

[tjwmason]

50. When the forth largest party in the U.K. Parliament is the D.U.P.

I think the notion of nationalists voting for the lesser of evils is horse-manure (I do hope that you don't consider Dr. Paisley's bunch of merry men the lesser-evil than the U.U.P.).

None of the political parties is asking for a referendum because they know what they're talking about, they know that it would be in favour of the Union.

[Henny Penny]

51. The antique system that made the DUP the fourth largest

party in the UK parliament is same one that gave Tony Blair that nice little majority with just 36% of the vote (or 22% of those eligible to vote). The DUP have just 9 seats btw and their success is as much down to collapse in the Ulster Unionist vote as anything they themselves did. It is not unreasonable to suppose that many of the remaining Ulster Unionist votes came from Nationalists.

"I think the notion of nationalists voting for the lesser of evils is horse-manure"- think again. It has been going on for generations.

[tjwmason]

52. As a serious question

What will make you face reality?

The total votes for the major Ulster Parties:

D.U.P. - 241,856
S.F. - 174,530
S.D.L.P. - 125,626
U.U.P. - 127,414

Oh look, the D.U.P. got soooooo many tactical nationalist votes that they're the largest party.

"I think the notion of nationalists voting for the lesser of evils is horse-manure"- think again. It has been going on for generations.

Now you're twisting my words. My point was that given the position of the D.U.P. at the last election, you could not claim uncertainty based on nationalist voting for moderate unionist.

For whatever reason or reasons - it is obvious to any reasonable observer that the people of N.I. wish to remain as part of the U.K. at the moment. The sooner that the more radical republicans on message boards like this face that reality, and decide how to move forwards from that, the better for all of the people of N.I.

[Henny Penny]

58. The population of Northern Ireland is almost 1.7 million

and I think we can say with certainty that 241,856 of those definitely wish to remain part of the United Kingdom.

[tjwmason]

72. I don't see the point of a referendum.

I'm now certain that you would find some similar spurious reason to discount the result.

I also see no purpose in continuing this discussion since reason and sense have been discarded by one side.

I you ever see me post on a N.I. thread by accident, please do remind me that I should not be there - they are places where democracy, self-determination, and indeed common sense are abandoned in favour of Imperialism by supposed progressives who clearly have no interest in the people of N.I. or their future.

[Henny Penny]

75. There is no need not to post simply because you encounter

views that do not tally with your own.

My point on the referendum is simply that you cannot know what people's views on a particular issue are, until they are asked.

And as for clearly having "no interest in the people of N. I or their future..."

Nothing could be further from the truth as I am one of them.

:beer:

It is a lovely day today, but I have enjoyed popping in from the garden now and again to discuss things with you. And I would miss you if you felt you had to leave.

:hi:

[Ken Burch]

65. That vote breaks down at about

Unionist-55%
Nationalist-45%

In the late 1960's the Unionist vote was always at least 67%.

So no, the idea that support for the Unionist position is unchanging and unshakeable does not hold up under scrutiny.

And you are wrong, there are many examples of tactical voting amongst the more moderate parties(SDLP and UUP)in Ulster. In a numbe of constituencies, SDLP voters in past elections have swung UUP in order to stop the DUP candidate getting elected.

In others, the UUP voters threw their votes to the SDLP candidate in order to stop Sinn Fein.

[Ken Burch]

61. Although, it would probably help the NI situation

If more people there PICKED UP the bong.

"Fuckin' Prod(toke)"
"Fuckin' Taig(toke)"

(long pause) then

"like, didyez ever notice that Paisley's last name is, like PAISLEY
as in fuckin dayglo and black lights"
(longer pause)
"Ah, yeah, ya poxie bastard. That's like so fuckin cool then..."

(even longer pause)

"Would yez be after passin the crisps and restartin' the Van Morrison CD then..."

[Henny Penny]

62. lol I think it would help in quite a few conflict resolution scenarios n/t

[cap]

28. It's not an Irish march...

It's a Protestant march in a Catholic area. Without English muscle there would not be much Protestantism in Ireland.

[Henny Penny]

30. That is a little harsh cap.

The protestants who are there have as much right as anyone to be there. They were born there and so were their parents and grandparents.

The issue of loyalist marches in catholic areas is a very different matter. If a bunch of Sinn Fein supporters had a march in a loyalist area eg the Shankill, and the local populace starting throwing stuff at them, people would say "Well what did you expect?"

But in the days of "A protestant state for a protestant people" these marches were commonplace and were all about saying "we are in charge, we own this place, you lot keep your heads down or else..."

But now nationalists won't put up with that sort of thing, but the problem is it has been going on for so long that it is looked on as a tradition (as in part of their culture) by loyalists.

[cap]

35. if N. Ireland were reunited with Ireland

those marches would be a thing of the past.

I'm not saying the protestants dont have a right to be there. But they dont have a right to economically segregate Catholics. Employers look very closely at where you work and went to school (even High School). If they see a St. Such and Such then you are Catholic and not hired for good jobs

[bettyellen]

69. if you're name is Sean instead of John, you won't get a job....

unless they need a "croppy" to fill their quota of catholic hires.

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. Rubbish - the English would be glad to see Northern Ireland go

as either independent, or as part of a united Ireland. The problem is the Unionists, who want to remain in the UK, and would start up a civil war if they were chucked out of it. There's still a majority of unionists in Northern Ireland, and, to make matters worse, the idiots are voting more and more for Paisley.

LESS than a third of British voters want Northern Ireland to stay in the UK and fewer than one in eight believe the IRA campaign is over for good, according to a Sunday Times/YouGov poll. The online survey of 1,400 electors found 46% favoured a united Ireland, only 30% want to keep Northern Ireland — and 25% don’t care. The two biggest political parties are blamed for the peace stalemate, with 42% saying Sinn Fein and the IRA are the main ones at fault while 18% blame Ian Paisley’s DUP. The poll found a profound distrust of the IRA: 64% believe the IRA will resume violence while only 12% believe the ceasefire will hold.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-1592812,00.html

[cap]

34. the average English person would be glad to see N. Ireland go

but there is a lot of big English money in N Ireland that wants the UK.

[brentspeak]

70. You forgot to mention that the Irish Republic doesn't WANT N.Ireland

The last thing the people governed from Dublin want are several million disgruntled, impovershed, and violent N.Irelanders.

The British don't want them, and neither do the Irish.

[muriel_volestrangler]

71. True; if the unionists were 'normal' Brits

I don't think there'd be a problem. There did used to be prejudice against the Irish in Britain, but that really has gone away (excluding the bits of Glasgow that retain a strange affiliation to the sects in Northern Ireland), and union with the Republic wouldn't be a bad prospect (ironically, the one thing that many people in the rest of Britain would have a problem with in the Republic, the draconian abortion laws, is agreed with by the unionists). But I can see the Irish government's point of view - NI is a powderkeg that no-one wants in its present state.

I'd like to see the end of sectarian schooling - I think there's nothing like spending a lot of time with someone to understand they're almost identical to you - but Blair is pushing for more religious schools in Britain, so there's no chance of getting rid of them in NI. Without that, I don't see an end to the conflict.

[tjwmason]

76. RE Glasgow

An ultra hard-line Scottish Presbyterian I knew at university put it well - shes comes from near Glasgow.

"The only difference between us and Northern Ireland is that they've got guns."

[trebizond]

81. IF ONLY we (Britain) could get shot of Northern Ireland

We could palm all these nutters off onto the Irish Republic, and never again have to listen to pompous Americans lecturing us for how evil we are in "occupying" a province that in fact clings on to us like a tick on a dogs backside and that the Irish republic doesn't even paticularly want. For once the opinions of the BRITISH people should be listened too in all this--we could withdraw from NI, and let them have a referendum on whether they become independent or force themselves upon the ROI, or whatever the hell the want. I do feel sorry for the province's sane moderates- but the success of the DUP and Sinn Fein suggests they're on the back foot these days.

[Henny Penny]

90. I am a little concerned that we may have missed a window of

opportunity. After the end of the cold war, the argument put forward for holding on to NI because of its strategic importance (wrt to controlling the N. Atlantic) no longer carried much weight. But now * is in power and the US has thrown all previous foreign policy and strategic assumptions in the bin... I'm not sure the UK will be able to give up that foothold so easily.

" but the success of the DUP and Sinn Fein suggests they're on the back foot these days."

I think there are sane moderates in both these parties, mixed in with the nutters. The problem with this season's marches is going to be the huge power vacuum.

The US has no interest in pushing things forward, and the UK while interested, cannot because Tory Blair to busy wrecking the EU budget, followed by taking over the EU presidency.. and organising the G8 stuff, and any upcoming war with Iran/Syria. And meanwhile, the Assembly is still suspended.... and the Northern Ireland office are running things...badly.

So it will be a long, hot summer.....

[bennywhale]

47. The protestants have been in Northern Irelnd a lot longer than you

have been in America. Furthermore a few of them are of Irish origin.

[bennywhale]

37. What a thoroughly misguided and ill informed load of shit.

If you don't know what you are talking about don't say anything

[trebizond]

82. I dont think much sanity is to be expected on a board where some posters

BOAST about being members of NORAID.

[bennywhale]

45. And America should belong to the Americans then.

I'm going to take a guess and say you're not native American. The protestants in Northern Ireland have been there longer than you have been in America. So if you're from Europe or Africa or where ever i'm gping to respectfully suggest that you go back to where you belong. Some alien country you've never visited as America is clearly not your home.

Now is that a ridiculous suggestion?

[Ken Burch]

63. Why do you assume that the Protestants can only safely remain

if they hold the political upper hand, bennywhale.

Why can't you accept that Protestant and Catholic could live as equals and without violence or any repression whatsoever, as they have in the Republic for ages now?

[puddycat]

55. angel wings and pitchforks, LOL

The Catholics have attacked Protestants ever since the reformation, but at the same time using the great power of the Church to hide their crimes. Protestants have responded. There is a lot of prejudice to go around on both sides. Why do Catholics deny their part in this? To read about these accounts interpreted by certain DU members, you would think the Catholics all wear angel-wings, and the Protestants have pitchforks.

It would be nice if there were a mass movement away from all organized religion and back to basic ethics and humanity. I have friends of many religions, but generally I try to ignore their religiosity, because all this superstition bugs the hell out of me sometimes.

[dkofos]

19. Let's pass out guns before the next Belfast march

In the hopes that the loonie christians will KILL EACH OTHER OFF.
What a bunch of FUCKING IDIOTS

My god is better than your god

GIVE ME A BREAK

:grr: :grr:

[Ken Burch]

23. Fortunately, word is

that the fastest growing religion in the Irish Republic(Eire)is Buddhism.

Maybe it will cross the border. Belfast and Derry could definitely use more Zen masters.

[Algorem]

66. diverts attention from Blair?

[brainshrub]

67. One of the great things about the US: No religious violence.

Yes, we get the occasional nut-ball, but it would break my heart if something like this happened here.

IMO, religious fighting is caused by imperialism. Imperialists use religion to justify their oppression, and an indigenous population being persecuted use religion as a common bond to rally around in order to fight back.

[Rich Hunt]

74. of course

But there are abortion clinic bombers and the like. I don't think any society is safe from murderous religious fanaticism.

[T_i_B]

80. That's what the US first ammendment is designed to avoid.

it also helps keep religious apartheid such as that which we Brits were imposing on Ireland at the time of US independence at bay.

[lovuian]

68. I'm proud of the Catholics the Protestants were on their turf!!!

the Orange were in their faces!!!

Northern Ireland is still a tinder box!!!

[Che_Nuevara]

79. and to think ...

we were all happy when the IRA released their open letter of apology in '02. so much for that.

[Bridget Burke]

86. Which IRA members were present?

Odd that the article should begin with a reference to "Catholic hard-liners".

Several hours later, in apparent retaliation, Protestant militants attacked five homes in the nearby Ligoniel district. All were struck at about 2:30 a.m. Saturday with paint-filled balloons. Three also suffered broken windows or scorch damage from ignited gasoline-filled bottles.

And Orange "supporters" were also expected at the parade.

Applications for Orange parades in east Belfast are legal, the Government has been told by its own legal team - deepening the mess around parading laws as the marching season approaches its peak.

As legislation meant to control the supporters of parades gets its first test tonight with a huge march in north Belfast, Orange protest tactics were raising new questions about the legal framework for parades.

One thousand Orange marchers and hundreds of supporters were expected on the streets tonight for the annual Tour of the North parade.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=647502

But, of course, the "hard line Catholics" caused all the trouble.

[Rich Hunt]

84. I'm surprised this thread is still going

NI threads don't usually attract this much attention on DU.

[NNN0LHI]

89. I was just telling myself the same thing

People who have posted here appear pretty passionate on the subject too. I don't know enough about the whole situation to make any type of informed comment. (I know that has never stopped me in the past) I would just be happy to know who if the members of U-2 are Catholics or Protestants.

Don

[Lilith Velkor]

95. I read in an old interview

They are nondenominational Christians, except the bass player who's not religious. That's what they told Rolling Stone, anyway.

[NNN0LHI]

108. Thank you for that information

I have actually been following this stuff peripherally since the 1970's. I can remember reading in Life magazine the story of Bobby Sands and others starving themselves to death at Maze prison. I remember this because I had found this martyr stuff very disturbing.

Don

[two gun sid]

85. Oh boy, I see Marching Season has started!

The Orange Order refuses to discuss the marching routes with the people of the predominately Republican areas they intend to march through. Republicans show up to protest and hurl bottles and brickbats at Unionist marchers. PSNI turns water cannons on the crowd.

This shit has got to stop. The Long War is over. It is time for both sides to get back to the bargaining table and make the GFA work.

[Endangered Specie]

110. Some feuds just DON'T end.

:eyes:

500 year pissing match.

[Bridget Burke]

114. Especially when feuds are politically valuable to a colonial power.

Of course, the Brits wish the Unionists would behave like gentlemen--they are no longer needed to keep the Papists down. But the Orangemen remember the siege of Derry & the Somme. They fought for Old England, but does England care?

In related news: Shia & Sunni can live together in relative harmony. But we've got to keep our forces in Iraq--to keep the peace.

[bennywhale]

119. This feud is politically valuble to Britain is it?

could you explain how exactly. If you can't say anything meaningful don't say anything at all.

[Bridget Burke]

125. The feud WAS politically valuable to England.

They imported Protestants from Lowland Scotland to keep the Irish down. Even though the Nonconformists were often oppressed for not belonging to the Church of Ireland, they were less oppressed than the Catholics. Feuding was not universal--you have heard of the United Irishmen, haven't you?

Keeping both the Nonconformists & Catholics in their place was beneficial to England & the (Church of Ireland) ruling class. And encouraging the feud was a good way to do it.

Now the Brits want the Orangemen to be good citizens of the UK. Some of them aren't going along with the new plan.

I hope this isn't too complex for you.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jman0]

130. They are not Catholics, they are RESIDENTS

And they don't want a sectarian organisation called the Orange Order marching through their neighbourhood.
It's quite simple really.