Kerry cautious on probing `Downing Street Memo'

[G_j]

http://news.bostonherald.com/politics/view.bg?articleid=90090


Home > News & Opinion > National Politics


Kerry cautious on probing `Downing Street Memo'

By Noelle Straub
Monday, June 20, 2005 - Updated: 03:07 AM EST

WASHINGTON - Walking a tightrope on a politically charged issue, Sen. John F. Kerry vowed weeks ago to raise the controversial ``Downing Street Memo'' as an issue in Washington, but has since publicly held his tongue on the matter.

Instead, Kerry has been enlisting other senators to sign onto a letter to the Senate Intelligence Committee seeking answers about the memo, aides said.
<snip>

``I think it's a stunning, unbelievably simple and understandable statement of the truth and a profoundly important document that raises stunning issues here at home,'' he added. ``And it's amazing to me the way it escaped major media discussion. It's not being missed on the Internet, I can tell you that.''

But Kerry has not been vocal about the issue since then, raising it neither in a floor speech nor in the media. Kerry spokesman David Wade insisted the administration needs to answer questions about the memo.


..more..

[lateo]

1. Surprised?

JK playing a sheep in wolf's clothing. Talk tough and then sit back down.

Boring

[sendero]

3. Don't worry...

.... he's working "behind the scenes" just like he did in Ohio in November.

Exactly like that.

[lateo]

12. LOL!

Yeah, and we all see the fruits of what he did then don't we?

[TankLV]

248. I'm still waiting breathlessly for the BIG ANNOUNCEMENT he was going to do

one Monday back in January ont he Ohio elections.

Same results.

NOTHING!

So far he's batting a big fat ZERO.

All talk, with nothing to show for it.

[LiberalEsto]

2. "Cautiously." So what else is new?

Wake me up when Kerry decides to stop acting cautiously and starts acting with courage.

John Conyers is a member of Congress with true courage.

[BrendaStarr]

138. Kerry who?

Never heard of him.

If I did, I've forgotten the name.

Lets move on.

[punpirate]

4. Sorry, doesn't sound like the guy...

... who went after BCCI twenty years ago, even if he stepped on some Democratic toes.

What time in the Senate will do to one....

[ecoalex]

7. More Flippity Floppity

[earth mom]

45. FYI-That's a rethug talking point.

Anyway...Kerry is playing it cautiously...I would LOVE him to do more...but will wait and see what happens. :shrug:

[TankLV]

249. We're still waiting for the last couple times he promised he would do

something!

Flippity floppity again, indeed!

And some wonder how the elections were close enought to possibly steal.

[blm]

157. Horseshit. It took Kerry a FULL YEAR to get other Ds onboard w/ IranContra

and the only way he got to go after BCCI in an official capacity was because the Senate wouldn't ALLOW Kerry on the Senate panel, as a compromise with the Republicans who claimed he was too insistent in going after Reagan and Bush.

This article doesn't even match the headline. The headline assumes Kerry's backing off, but the article doesn't back that up with any PROOF and instead, only says he's moving a letter to get an official Senate inquiry into DSM.

Man, people love to get their chains jerked by RW rag headlines. Kinda like when they claimed Kerry screaming impeachment, and now he's not doing anything.

[Straight Shooter]

167. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

I hope for all our sakes that Kerry is preparing a masterpiece for the banquet.

[FreedomAngel82]

189. Me too

And patience is the key. You have to have a good strategy with these people. He does know them. I'm willing to wait. Kerry is a politician. Nobody should ever get their hopes up with any politician. If it happens, it does. Hopefully now with the Iraqi government wanting Bush to get out of their country Kerry might move a little faster. In politics it's also about the timing of everything. If you do something at the wrong time and/or someone else finds out and leaks everything it could mess everything up. These people are dangerous psychopaths. If nothing happens I will be disappointed for a while but I'll move on. I'll still have respect for Kerry as a politician.

[scottxyz]

206. No, patience isn't the key - getting on TV with a soundbite is the key

And Kerry, typically, just blathered about nothing. Using words like "stunning" and "understandable".

If he had said a simple and courageous statement like: "We need to investigate the DSM to determine whether George W. Bush broke US and international law here" we'd be getting somewhere.

But as someone indicated earlier, a long time in the Senate will turn a solder to a wimp.

[punpirate]

174. What is valid, however...

... is that Kerry announced that he would address the issue on the Senate floor on the following Monday, and he did not.

Instead, Kennedy made a statement--and there was no indication that he did so on Kerry's behalf, as I recall.

Now, you can scream "Horseshit" all you like, but this is also the guy who left 60-odd million people in the fucking lurch because he didn't think the fight could be won. Now, in yet another instance, he doesn't follow through as he said he would.

You go ahead and trust him. I don't. I don't dislike the man, but I don't trust him. I wrote him more than two years ago, at the time he was considering running, and said, as a veteran of that time, I respected his decision to return his ribbons as a protest against the war in 1971. I got a wishy-washy reply saying that he'd rethought his actions. Everything he's done since then has been calculated for political effect--and that's not what I expected of the man.

You find him deserving of admiration--fine. Don't expect me to agree.

[blm]

180. He said he'd bring it up to the senate. He's seeking an official inquiry

and is working to get other Senators on board and apparently that is not what some of you want.



Why aren't you all jumping on every Dem senator to support Kerry's letter of inquiry instead of working with the rightwing to UNDERMINE his credibility on this?

You are welcome to name ONE lawmaker who has done more to investigate and expose government corruption and effected our government more positively than Kerry has over the last 35 years. That will be the only day that Kerry deserves to move down one notch on my respect ladder.

[FreedomAngel82]

191. I agree

In the orginial interview Kerry did about this with that South coast paper he said he'll bring it up as an issue. His aide said he'll give a speech. Not him. I go by what he says and does. If he wanted us to know about it I think he'd tell us instead of having an aide. Plus, he does have the letter and as blm said we should be encouraging all of our democratic senators and even some moderate republicans who we have a chance of reaching to talk to Kerry about his letter and sign on and have a full investigation of it. Bitching and whining won't do anything.

[punpirate]

211. Where the fuck was Kerry when Conyers...

... was holding his forum in the basement of the Capitol Building? There wasn't hide nor hair of him--nor any other Senator for that matter--even to pop in for moral support--and it wasn't an official House hearing, so he could have.

One lawmaker. How about in the Senate? How about Sam Ervin? Sam pretty much nailed the President of the United States, Richard Nixon, to the goddamned wall like he was a stuffed duck. Nixon went down in large part because of Sam Ervin, along with Daniel Inouye and a couple of others. How about Frank Church? How about Otis Pike? Both forced hearings on our own CIA and its excesses, foreign and domestic.

How about simple courage? How about Wayne Morse of Oregon and Ernest Gruening of Alaska--who voted against the Tonkin Gulf Resolution. Wayne Morse's political career was destroyed by that vote, and he probably knew it would be. How about the twenty-three Senators who voted against the Iraq invasion resolution in October, 2002? Of which Kerry was not one. How about Russ Feingold--the only Senator to vote against the PATRIOT ACT, who might have stood even taller with Kerry at his side?

I don't take away from him what Kerry did when he was a young turk, but he's not that same guy now. And he didn't bring anyone down in those investigations. He was essentially thwarted in that by others.

But, my biggest complaint, at the moment, is that when he had the chance to declaim the war as a put-up job, and to say definitively that he would get troops out immediately--to honor his previous statements about avoiding putting troops in needless risk through illegal wars--he did not. He equivocated.

He's either right now, or he was right in 1971. There's no way to reconcile those two disparate statements of his that I can see.

As I said, you favor him if you wish. That's your right as a freethinking individual. But, I disagree. I voted for him, but I didn't like doing it.

[blm]

224. You're wrong. It was easier for Nixon to go down because people had

turned the corner on their support of the Vietnam War which was helped along by Kerry's efforts.

Kerry went after and uncovered IranContra and persevered to get an official investigation for a FULL YEAR before the Senate gave in.

Kerry investigated and exposed BCCI and he worked on that for FIVE YEARS almost alone in congress and against the ENTIRE DC POWERSTRUCTURE including the FBI and CIA, including most Dems and the media who piled on calling Kerry a "conspiracy theory nut" and a "phony" and acted as if it was all about him and not about the greatest corruption in the history of this country - even BushInc's crimes today are rooted in BCCI.

Kerry got BCCI closed down, but if he had more lawmakers fighting with him to force more of it out to the public then what would the government look like today?

Almost everything we know about BushInc comes from what Kerry was able to expose in IranContra and BCCI.

You trivialize that and discredit Kerry. Go ahead. The historic record and the congressional record tell a different story, and I hope to hell history tells the real story of BushInc that existsin those records thanks to Kerry and not your version where Kerry's efforts produced nothing.

Kerry gained alot over his work - He gained a great big target on his back and the backs of his family.

He could have had it easy by going along with the powerbase back in the 70s and back in the 80s and again in the 90s. Instead, he took what he learned in BCCI and wrote the book alerting the country on its new challenge, global terrorism and its funding by international institutions and financiers. Few listen and few hear.

[Dr Ron]

236. House and Senate are two different bodies

Senators don't attend House hearings.

There were two major differences with Watergate.

Watergate too much longer to investigate and deal with. People here are attacking Kerry very soon after he first brought up the issue.

Secondly, Democrats had control of Congress, making it much easier to investigate.

[punpirate]

241. As I said...

... Conyers forum was not a formal hearing. Conyers is the ranking minority member, and as such, cannot convene a committee hearing--only the majority chairman can do that. So, as an informal forum, any Senator could attend, if he or she chose to do so, even as an observer.

Watergate began just as small as the DSM issue has today. It will take time to develop it, yes. But, my arguments are that Kerry did not do as he said he would--and that mirrors his failure to do as he should have done on the day after election day.

I did not say Kerry would appear on the following Monday to discuss the DSM on the Senate floor. Kerry said that himself.

Democrats, during Watergate, could not have brought the issue to impeachment and trial in the Senate without the aid of Republicans, which they had, due to the extremes to which Nixon had impugned Congress and its intentions. It was not a solely Democratic imperative. But, that's not the issue--I mentioned people such as Sam Ervin in the Watergate hearings as an example of people who had the strength and the wiles to accomplish the people's will under the Constitution, rather than to draw parallels between Watergate and the Downing Street minutes--I was responding to the prior poster's demand for a single example of someone who'd accomplished as much as what Kerry had accomplished during the BCCI/Iran-Contra hearings. I named several people who'd done more than yeoman duty in that regard--along with others who showed, when it was necessary, more courage and concern for the Constitution and the people, in their votes, than Kerry.

[Dr Ron]

242. Kerry never said he would appear on the Senate floor

He said he would take it up in the Senate. He has taken it up with fellow Senators, and there is more to come. Kerry is doing exactly what he said he would.

[punpirate]

246. Here's the quote from...

... the New Bedford Standard-Times:

"When I go back (to Washington) on Monday, I am going to raise the issue," he said of the memo, which has not been disputed by either the British or American governments. "I think it's a stunning, unbelievably simple and understandable statement of the truth and a profoundly important document that raises stunning issues here at home. And it's amazing to me the way it escaped major media discussion. It's not being missed on the Internet, I can tell you that."

I suppose that's open to interpretation, but there's no evidence available to the public that he has done so, except your assurances that he has--and you've offered no indication that you're any better hooked up with Kerry than the rest of us who are waiting for some definitive remarks from him in the Senate. I would add that the dateline on the story is June 2nd, eighteen days ago. I would further add that the initial publication of the leaked document is now fifty days ago.

Cheers.

[Dr Ron]

247. Kerry is taking action

There have been several media reports of Kerry working on getting the support of fellow Senators. His office has stated there is more to come on this.

18 days is not a very long time, and again there have been reports of Kerry working on this during this period.

[punpirate]

256. For the sake of the country...

... I hope you're right--but the main item on the calendar now is the energy bill, and the summer recess begins Aug. 1. Boxer and Kennedy have already mentioned it on the floor, Conyers has already held the closest thing he can to a hearing, but the last I read, five days ago, Kerry is still circulating a letter for signatures.

And, yes, perhaps I am impatient--because if it sits for much longer, it will disappear. Eighteen days is a lot of time--if it's important. I've written resolutions for the state legislature in four hours on half-a-day's notice when they had to be there--and more complicated than a resolution of inquiry in this matter. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, John Bonifaz has already written a resolution of inquiry which might require little modification.

I hope Kerry isn't out trying to obtain consensus before he acts. If he is, it dies.

Cheers.

[Dr Ron]

264. More coming soon

18 days isn't very long. The point is not how long it takes to write a resolution, but how long it takes to prepare the case and get meaningful support from other Senators.

We should be hearing more very soon. I didn't want to say anything earlier based upon off the record sources, but I see a post has now been added to the end of this thread regarding this.

[TankLV]

250. Yeah, just like the Ohio election issue!

We're still waiting for THAT one!

[mom cat]

254. Bingo! We need real leadership on this one, not empty platitudes.

[bicentennial_baby]

5. Yawn...

No surprises here... :eyes:

[Botany]

6. He is going to make sure every ......

..... memo counts and every memo is counted.

Get 'em John!

[sui generis]

8. Kerry doesn't speak for me

or "not speak" for me, as the case may be.

[reality based]

9. John, its time to turn the boats into the oncoming fire

and show your mettle. You did it once when you were young and became a hero. What self doubts prevent you from doing it now? What do you really have to lose? Forget the signatures. Dare the bullies to swift boat you again. And don't leave Dick Durbin out there in the water taking enemy fire.

[comradebillyboy]

10. jk wants to be sure

to maintain his wishy washy image

kerry makes biden look like a profile in courage by comparison

[wallwriter]

11. How about some backbone, Senator?

[seeker4ever]

13. Fuck him.

I mean that in the best possible way.

[ixion]

14. more faux opposition from Kerry

really, with 'leadership' like this the neocons will never have a problem maintaining a stranglehold on our republic.

:cry:

[kweerwolf]

15. "I actually aggressively probed the Downing Street memo ...

... before I advised cautiously probing it."

Or to carry the paraphrase a step farther ...

I actually voted for John Kerry before I came to the realization that both major party candidates in the 2004 election would be disasters separated only by degrees.

[htuttle]

16. Oh, for crying out loud!

[AuntiBush]

17. Hmm... Yeah, It Takes Citzens-On-Internet-Patrol to Aide Congressman

Conyers and other House Congresswomen, etc.

I guess 560,000 Americans, and certainly (at the very least) 2-6 folks we know (placing that number well over 1.2-3+ million people on the Internet alone), Congressman Conyers and his House Supporters (89 or more signatures) just are not enough. Honestly!

No. Americans certainly can't expect the gov't run bullshivitz media to keep us informed. Rather, we have to figure it out on our damn own!

[Monkie]

18. "has your back" is the safest position to stab you from n/t

[jojo54]

19. What the f*ck is going on?

It's not just Kerry, although he's the worst of all. But it's other Dem senators too, if not all of them. Are they afraid of getting "burned"? Give me a break. Where are the guts that our party showed back in the day?

[Proud_Lefty]

20. There's something Bush has over the senators

This is just one more example of MANY. The senators seem to be allowed a certain amount of fighting room, but it's always on a short leash. Durbin says something that is true and has his words twisted around and become viciously attacked for true words instead of investigating the dangerous acts he talked about.

I saw F911 again this weekend, and kept asking myself why no senators would come forward on that day. Why did no senators sign Conyers' letter? Some senators are fighting some nominees, some partially fight outrageous legislation but for those of us watching it closely, it's clear that they understand their place in the senate and won't go the whole nine yards. Unfortunately, we don't understand what they're up against, so we call them wussies.

I just want to know why can't the senators really demand the truth in Washington? Threats? Blackmail? Honor club?

[Conker]

That's what I keep wondering, too.

It's as if something is holding the senators back, like a chain.

[Triana]

39. That's always been my suspicion...

...bu$h somehow has them cowed...

[leftchick]

83. its politics...

some senators can't pull their heads out of their asses and start working for truth as opposed to always thinking of how an issue affects them politically. Some things never change.

[Minstrel Boy]

92. it's deep politics

Too many people in Washington have been compromised. Too many could be subject to blackmail. (Farfetched? It's the real world.)

That's why Dean has scared these bastards - he can't be controlled, because they have nothing on him.

[Proud_Lefty]

116. You got that right

Dean is the only one who works outside the box. Our job is to dispose of the box. It would be exciting and amazing if the "people" actually win next time and decide who makes our laws and governs compared to BushCo deciding.

[renaissanceguy]

144. and yet another reason why

we should be thankful for Dean. He can speak the truth, and doesn't care what the media say about him...he fights back!


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/466053

[leftchick]

183. Hi MB!

:hi: I was thinking about you just yesterday and wondered where you have been.

I totally agree about them being compromised and a lot are just plain scared even when they aren't compromised. Dean is indeed fearless and it is stunning to them. I hope he does not let up,

[Minstrel Boy]

203. hey leftchick

:hi:

I've been around, though largely lurking. Most of my energies these days are being sucked up by my blog.

[leftchick]

245. and a great blog it is....

always on my reading list! :)

[FreedomAngel82]

192. Exactly on Dean

Dean isn't your average politician. I'm glad he scares them. They need to be scared outta their panties. Plus as chairman Dean doesn't do much policey stuff so he's on a free leash.

[whalerider55]

158. triana

to paraphrase you, $ has them cowed

whalerider

[jokerman93]

40. I think blackmail is part of the answer

I have no doubt that Bushco has done extensive background investigations into lives of all friends and foes. I also have no doubt they use any damning information they have to control people.

[Lilith Velkor]

166. I think Wellstone is another part of the answer n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

194. Probably

It's like with the election fraud. If he talked about it they probably would've done something to wreck his career and all that. I know it sounds like an excuse but it's the only thing I can think of. I heard Bob Fitarkis on BradBlog's show and he said there was a gentleman's agreement not to talk about it. I just wish that all of our democratic senators would get a spine and be more like Dean and not give a damn.

[jokerman93]

229. yeah that's all it would take IMO

Bushco's power is an illusion built up by fear and lies. As long as we allow them, to act as if their power is legitimate, they'll run over everyone. One thing to count on: They are cowards. Nevertheless they are no doubt dangerous. It'll take a block of resistance from people who couldn't care less what Rove and Cheney might do.

By the way, I wonder if anyone is following up on the obvious, but veiled threats that Bush made to the Florida judges who didn't bend to Federal pressure on the Shiavo case.

If Bush makes threats like that in public speeches, I have no doubt that he has hatchet men that do it on a more "personal" level.

Wellstone...yeah.

[natrat]

77. if they cant buy them off with our stolen tax dollars then

threaten there children? create false stories then blackmail? however horrible it is our beloved repugs are capable of it and then some.

[AlGore-08.com]

149. What Smirk has "got" over them is they all voted for the damn invasion

There were major Dems, in and out of office, who opposed the invasion from the moment it was proposed by Smirk. But almost all of the Dems in Congress voted for it. If Congress actually investigates the Downing Street Memo et al, and they PROVE that Smirk lied us into war, then everybody who voted for the damn thing has to say one of three things:

1.) "I didn't know I was being lied to." This is the least damaging claim, but it shows that they're too incompetent to be left in office. It risks losing in the next cycle.

2.) "I did know I was being lied to, but I thought at the time and I still think that invading Iraq was such a good idea that the ends justify the means." They might have hid behind this six months ago, but the war is officially unpopular now, with 51% opposed. Another dangerous stance to take, re-election-wise.

3.) "I did know I was being lied to, but it was too popular to vote against - - and I figured the war would be won so quickly I'd never have to pay for my vote." The worst possible answer, but probably the most honest one.

[Bragi]

184. Right on, AlGore-08.com

No mystery really. They lost their ability to credibly criticize the war when they voted for it.

The reality is that the Congressional dems can't even benefit politically now from changed public opinion on the war, and are forced to just play around at the margins.

- B

[FreedomAngel82]

196. Yep

They really are in a rut. I'd probably go with the "Bush lied to me" ordeal. Blame him on the lack of intelligence or screwing around with the intelligence. That way the public would be mad at Bush as well.

[readmylips]

21. Using fighting words instead of diplomacy, typical media trash...

that's all the US media does. It's good that Kerry is hold his tongue, until all the eggs are in the basket or the media would be trashing every word he says. They're trashing him for what he doesn't say now. Rove must be angry that he doesn't know what's going inside Kerry's head. Keep the information very tight, then hit them with all the facts and figures ala Lawyer Massareu.

[G_j]

28. if it wasn't...

for his earlier remarks, perhaps people wouldn't have had expectations.
~~~~

``When I go back (to Washington) on Monday, I am going to raise the issue,'' Kerry told the New Bedford Standard-Times about the memo on June 2.

``I think it's a stunning, unbelievably simple and understandable statement of the truth and a profoundly important document that raises stunning issues here at home,'' he added. ``And it's amazing to me the way it escaped major media discussion. It's not being missed on the Internet, I can tell you that.''

[FreedomAngel82]

198. He didn't say what he was going to do though

He said he was going to raise the issue in Washington. Doesn't mean how.

[BobRossi]

22. Shilling for shrub again!

I have said it before, this imposter is nothing but a shill for shrub.

[Just Me]

24. No shit. Effectively inciting Dem-bashing on a "progressive" forum.

Meanwhile, the RW propaganda machine is laughing its ass off at our expense.

Geez. Will we NEVER learn. :spank: :spank: :spank:

[BulletproofLandshark]

26. Democrats that's won't fight for truth

deserve bashing.

[earth mom]

54. How about democrats that play buddy buddy with the BFEE like Clinton?!

IMO that's behavior that's far more disgusting and far more bash worthy. Jeez-Clinton hasn't even READ the memo! Yeah right. :eyes:

And maybe * does have something on ALL the senators and probably Clinton too and that's why they are all holding back-but at least Kerry doesn't sink so low as to kiss * ass. :puke:

[FreedomAngel82]

200. Yep

I agree. At least you don't see Kerry all buddy-buddy with poppy. Ugh. That's the most disgusting thing.

[whalerider55]

173. another way to see it...

Just-

We have learned. The problem isn't that we disagree on things as a party, its that we need to come up with ways to work together that honor and reflect our differences.

We learned that the price the republicans have paid for failing to work out their own broad differences within the party is a virtual coup by one wing. I grew up with Elliot Richardson, Howard Baker, Rockefeller, and Javits as models of republican moderates that had a place in the party, and in many cases helped move landmark legislation through congress. Don't get me wrong; there was a strong weasel factor in the Pugs ALWAYS, but some of them actually knew how to be statesmen (women), to put country ahead of party. Can you name any today in either party? One? Kennedy? Could've been Lugar, but he threw that away for power. McCain? Anyone willing to lap Bush like he has will never break through the clouds.

Name one politician in either party who approaches the statesmanlike qualities of Mike Mansfield, or Dirksen, Humphrey (at the beginning and end of his career), of Bobby Kennedy (who grew astonishgly in vision and temperment during his campaign for president); of Phil Hart.

Maybe Byrd. Yeah, Byrd, who has not shiued away from the mistakes he now understands he made 60 years ago, the ones he doesn't wave off as youthful indiscretions.

Don't squash the discussion. DOn't accuse the critical posters of being pug shills. It disses them, and identifies you as the real shill- everybody think like i think and we get out of here alive. No honor in that. Its the wingnut way.

whalerider

[The Straight Story]

197. So we should be dembots like the bushies are bushbots?

We bitch and moan enough that the rw does not nail bush on his failing, we sure should not be any different.

We hire these people into office, we pay em, and it is our job to evaluate them and show them where their performance lacks.

[FreedomAngel82]

202. Exactly

I get so pissed when other people tell me not to bash another politician because he or she has a (d) next to their name. Sorry but if the person is going to represent me I'm going to critize them all I want. Not critizing someone because they share your party's initial could get you in trouble. Look at the republican party today!

[fedupinBushcountry]

29. Excuse me

Hey Monday morning quarterback, I'd like to see you walk a day in his shoes.

This type of bashing has got to stop. Just wing out some baseless words and go at it. Disgusting. :argh:

[Proud_Lefty]

35. There's a lot of bashing these days

Kerry is a fighter, but he'll do his job within the perimeters available to him. When are the progressives going to stop using the right wing propaganda attacks, which are overreaching, baseless and stupid, on our own people?

[G_j]

43. leaving the article aside

if Kerry hadn't said he was going to bring it up when got back to DC, I don't think people would have felt as 'let down'.

[notadmblnd]

63. It is Kerry's unwillingness to step outside of his box

to take action that causes me to doubt him and his loyalties. Yes, his behavior sure does make one wonder who his controllers really are.

[Proud_Lefty]

125. Heard a rumor his daughter was threatened

Not sure about the accuracy, but what would you do? I'm a mother and I know I would protect my kids, first and foremost.

[Occulus]

151. I'd send her into deep exile with handpicked guards

and then try to come forward.

Ridiculous that we're even contemplating this, of course- ridiculous that we even feel the need.

Everything is ridiculous these days. Everything's backward.

[truth2power]

234. Walk a day in his shoes?

Kerry ran for and was elected to the Senate. Nobody put a gun to his head, AFAIK. So he either needs to walk in those shoes or take them off and give them to someone who can use them. When he ran for Pres., he didn't follow through with promises he made about making sure every vote was counted etc. He just faded away after the election. His supporters, here, counseled patience. It was said he was working behind the scenes. Well, I waited. Now it's 7 months later. Now the story is that he's going to do something re: DSM. We just gotta be patient.

I don't know how long we're supposed to wait...another 2 months?...6?....12? At some point it'll all become irrelevant because we'll all be (you should pardon the expression) in some Gulag somewhere.

I agree with Punpirate, above. People have a right to admire Kerry and support him if they wish. But I also have a right to examine my conscience, consult my BS detector, and decide it's time to move on.

[Talismom]

238. I agree truth2power!

I left my 6 yr old twins with daddy (who was running a phone bank to FL) in NYC and rode with 14 others in a 15 person van to Cleveland to run around in the rain and cold to get out the vote for Kerry. I cried with joy at the Springstein concert singing "No retreat, no surrender!" the night before the voting debacle and yet given 2000 and 2002 I was not shocked by what went down. What shocked me--like a sucker punch--was Kerry's rapid fire concession when I heard it riding home the next day!

I will never again put out--money or sweat--for a spineless wimp who will not put out for us! He can forget my vote!

[TankLV]

257. A LOTof people could walk BETTER in his shoes than he does -

the problem is, none of them are in positions of power - yet.

[LizW]

81. Well, then YOU offer some insight

What is holding Kerry back? I seriously don't get it. Bushco LIED to Congress.

I don't understand what's holding ANY of the Dems back. The evidence is THERE, all over the place. Bush, Cheney, Rice, all of them, manipulated the intelligence and LIED to the Congress of the United States in order to trick them into voting for a war that Bush and the neocons wanted LONG before 9/11. They also manipulated the media into parroting their lies and skewing American public opinion.

What possible political risk could there be in SAYING THIS?

The only thing I can think of is the Israel taboo. It is hard to get into the neocon cabal without unearthing a lot of stuff that IS politically problematic.

Look at Nadler's recent statement, and Dean's. No politician wants to be in the room when the neocon ties to Israel come up. But I've just read James Bamford's book "A Pretext for War", and I don't know how you talk about the run-up to the Iraq war, and the motive for manipulating the intelligence, without talking about Perle, Wolfowitz and Wurmser.

Now if THAT's what's holding Kerry and others back, I can understand, but I also think it means we're in real trouble in this country.

[confludemocrat]

86. I agree, pullout from Iraq for them=trouble for Israel. We ARE in trouble

Holding Kerry to account for his weird behavior is not bashing. He has failed and he won't get another chance to lead.

[staticstopper]

135. I agree

But I also think that there has been only one party since JFKennedy was killed (all that crap about Watergate was about the man Nixon, and nothing else...we still are in the grip of his hentchmen, like Cheney and the bushies)

But it is this war and the weird 911 hangover everyones in that's making it sooooooooooo obivous to see---*they* had better reign in the radical neo-cons or their jig is gonna be up soon.

hmmm?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

23. of course he is, there are few 'smoking guns' here

all the memo represents is the personal interpretation of a single witness. Any of the opinions represented here need to be corroborated.
As evidence, the DSM is at the top of what is currently a very thin pile.

[rocktivity]

27. But if this "single witness" got it wrong or made it up

Why hasn't anyone on Blair's end stood up and said so? And why would it be made up if it was for the British government's eyes only?

:headbang:
rocknation

[redqueen]

44. WTF?! The DSM is an official government document

relating what took place at these meetings.

YES we need to examine the document, find out who this man met with, etc... but saying it's a collection of interpretations and opinions is irresponsible. It's the official record stating what went on at the meeting. It's no more a collection of interpretations and opinions than any other text record of any other meeting. Your characterization sounds like pure right wing spin, to me.

As evidence, the DSM is hopefully finally enough to rouse the whore media from their comfortable dozing. "Thin pile" my ass.

[sidpleasant]

59. "The personal interpretation of a single witness?" Not quite

We shouldn't be referring to this document as the "Downing Street Memo", it would be more accurate to call it the "Downing Street Minutes." "Memo" has overtones of casualness, like something you'd scribble down on a post - it pad. The DSM was the minutes of the meeting and, according to the UK press, was circulated among those in attendence at the meeting afterward for comment. No one changed or added anything. Therefore it correctly records the views of everyone in that meeting - including Blair! - and not just those of the author.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

65. That's great if is all true

as you say. It just needs to be proven. Every last ounce of deniability has to be removed from the administration's quiver, or at the least, the weight of evidence needs to be built up on the DSM side of the arguement.

[redqueen]

71. It needs to be *officially recognized*, not proven.

It's true... that much is certain. What we need is for media whores here to recognize it for what it is.

I'm not holding my breath... but it's coming.

[whalerider55]

176. disagree

the memo represents official minutes, and constitutes the same degree of value as does the daily briefing * receives... August 8 "Bin Laden", remmeber?

there have been media reports confirming that "unnamed british officials" verify that the minutes represent exactly what Blair was told.

please check the following link- http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_06/006537.php

There have been reported anonymous sources within the US government that confrim that the minutes reflect exactly the topics discussed that day (should make it easy to track down those US anonymous sources, no?)

The Woodward book about Bush's runup to the war fits the memo perfectly in describing the differences between what Bush, Rumsfiled and COndi were actually dooing vs what they were saying to the american people.

are we so afraid of being "rather-ed" by rove that we can't put two and two together and hold a press conference and scream from the tops of our lungs "FOUR!" ?

whalerider

edited to add link

[Frederik]

240. Baloney

"the personal interpretation of a single witness"

Minutes of a meeting between the prime minister, the head of intelligence, and others?

"thin pile"

Richard Clarke and Paul O'Neill, who had cabinet-level positions at the time, can corroborate the central point, that the decision to invade Iraq was taken early and that WMD and terrorism were used as propaganda, and were not the real reasons to invade.

[DS1]

25. The Herald is a right-wing piece of shit, not worth the paper it's printed

on.

Only fools, idiots, and suckers read it. Which is why Kevin Hill on WAAF reads from it exclusively, he's a right-wing fucknut too.

[freedom_to_read]

34. Herald has it in for Kerry

they will go to absolutely any length to put a dent in him.

[DS1]

36. So do I, but I know a hit-piece when I see it

;-)

[G_j]

37. I know nothing about the Herald

but if you could point out specifics in the article...

[redqueen]

47. Sad to see so many Dems savaging our own based on RW hit pieces.

Says a lot about the current state of our party.

[DS1]

62. Obviously it's touched a nerve

If the collective 'we' had more confidence in Kerry, you wouldn't see half the agreement here. I've said above and I've said before, I think Kerry has lost his way, he's a lame ass *in the :dem: sense of course*

[redqueen]

64. Oh I understand...

however I can't help thinking that Regan's doctrine of never talking shit about another republican is a good idea.

I'm not happy that Kerry said he'd say something and then didn't... but I won't bag on him for it. Conyers is doing a fine job, and as momentum builds we can all call on Kerry for action... I think calling on him (or Reid) for action would be more effective than just bitching and whining.

[DS1]

67. Supposedly he's floated a letter for signatures

*picture me twirling my finger in the air*

[Lorien]

82. Without discontent and criticism, nothing will change

and our party MUST change to survive and return to power.

[redqueen]

119. Bitching here ain't gonna change JS.

As I said, a more productive use of time would be to provide contact details for both Reid and Kerry, and ask them to please address this... not just a bunch of yammering about Skull and Bones and whatever else.

[Lorien]

170. criticism LEADS TO ACTION

it is the catalyst. If it didn't we'd be singing "God save the queen" today.

[redqueen]

177. Sometimes.

Most of the time? I doubt it.

[confludemocrat]

87. Says a lot about the state of our party "leaders"

Not all, but Kerry exemplifies the problem.

[redqueen]

120. We get the Gov't we deserve. n/t

[leesa]

30. This guy is such a weenie! So is Hillary. Why would anyone want this

type in charge? Career first, all the time!

[second edition]

73. Get a clue, and don't believe everything you read in the papers.n/t

[brentspeak]

31. Kerry is smart to be cautious

I wouldn't attach my name to the DSM unless and until there's rock-solid confirmation of its authenticity.

[Fluffdaddy]

55. Ball-Less

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whalerider55]

181. such as...

having Kerry dial the phone and say- hey richard, hey jack, hey tony- is this shit on the dime or did someone make it all up.

really, my friend. all they have to do is ask the frickin question.

this is not a conspiracy, my friends. it is a confederacy of dunces. you can grab a hat and go sit in the corner. Me, i'm ready to find out whther there is a nexus where truth and politics meet.

heaven help us. you don't yell cautiously out the window for help when some psycho has set your national house aflame.

whalerider

[sunnystarr]

186. Top British officials have confirmed authenticity ...

That's been reported in our so called MSM who confirmed it first before reporting on the DSM.

[lthuedk]

239. Without photographs of the originals, the DSM is meaningless.

It stinks of Rove.

-sp

[Larkspur]

32. Some habits are hard to break. Seems Kerry has the same problem

most of us do.

Of course, the DSM also blasts the pro-war Dems who didn't want a thorough discussion of whether or not war was the best solution to remove Saddam and what planning the Bush Admin should have done. Like Bush & Cheney, they mistook Iraq for Grenada.

[geek tragedy]

33. He was for a strong stand on the DSM before he was against it. n/t

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

42. Guess who the first person to tag Kerry as a flip-flopper was?

Answer:


Howard Dean.

Kerry was a terrible candidate, and this kind of equivocating is exactly the reason why.

Kerry is no longer the party's nominee, and I certainly don't feel obligated to support him in his quest to get the nomination again.

[fedupinBushcountry]

49. I know exactly who it was

but I will not go into bashing him because of this and because I am a Democrat, and the infighting only hurts.

[second edition]

88. What Dean the Scream, came up with that saying?

I want some proof.

[geek tragedy]

164. Here ya go:

http://www.wcfcourier.com/articles/2003/12/25/news/breaking_news/7ed3357c5be848ed86256e070013feee.txt

<snip>
Howard Dean supporters gave John Kerry a peculiar Christmas gift -- flip-flop sandals.

Iowans for Dean delivered the "present" to the Massachusetts senator's Iowa campaign headquarters on Wednesday. Both Dean and Kerry are among nine candidates seeking the Democratic presidential nomination.

"Sen. Kerry has been flip-flopping on issues throughout his career and campaign, and we thought we could make things a little more comfortable for him," said Dean spokeswoman Sarah Leonard.
<snip>

[fedupinBushcountry]

187. And you are proud of this

:puke:

[geek tragedy]

193. Not proud. Just pointing out that Kerry as a candidate had severe

flaws, and that those flaws still continue.

John Kerry is not the party's nominee anymore. There are MUCH better candidates out there to run in 2008.

[fedupinBushcountry]

201. Baloney

Now remind me who won the primaries. I could care less about 2008 right now, 2006 is much more important right now.

[geek tragedy]

207. Yeah, Kerry won because he was more "electable." Oops. n/t

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

260. Hee hee hee - that's a good one!

Ouch!

[librechik]

41. f**kin A

sometimes you can just watch the strength and leadership get sucked out of Kerry like there's a vacuum hose attached somewhere.

WHY ARE WE CURSED WITH THESE SELF-INVOLVED DILLETTANTES AS LEADERS!!!!???

feh. we're screwed.

[Dr Fate]

56. The "strategists" who lost the last 3 elections are whispering in his ear.

I say we trust them- they've been right about everything so far. Assuming they are moles, that is.

[second edition]

91. He is taking the lead in the senate on this!

Do you of someone else who has brought attention to this issue in the Senate? I didn't think so. Oh, and has Dean taking the lead for the party on this issue also. What about Clark, has he mentioned it at all. Just what I thought, this is just another execise in Kerry bashing.

[Dr Ron]

46. Boston Herald hardly accurate on Kerry

Since when do DU members trust the conservative Boston Herald?

Kerry never said he would bring this up in a floor speech. He has been working with other Senators. By being the first Senator to bring this up in public, he created a buzz which led to other Senators also commenting.

There have been media reports of his actions. For example, see
http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=1080

and http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/?view=plink&id=1082

[G_j]

53. thanks for posting

I hope that what they report here manifests:

"John Kerry will demand answers in the Senate. Stay tuned."

The Washington Post provides further information on Kerry's actions today, reporting that "A senior aide close to Kerry said this week that Kerry is circulating a letter about the memo among Democratic senators before sending it to Bush. The aide predicted that Kerry would make the letter public in the next few days."

[JNelson6563]

48. Be cautious long enough and it will pass

Our great warrior. Ugh.

Julie

[Javaman]

50. Kerry's typical modus operendi...

He's smart enough to know when the time is right. Also, he's smart enough to know that he has to get all his ducks in a row before he makes a statement. He is doing the investigative work making sure everything checks out and has answers for everything. Just the way he works. Yeah, granted it maybe boring at times, but just like with the S&L scandal, he took his time, had the facts, then presented his case.
On a side note, kind of an interesting example of how he would have been president.

[TankLV]

262. Just like the elections - only then it was "he's a closer"

and "watch him near the end" - I did and all I got for it was another 4 years of bunkerboy - easily the most beatable candidate in a generation.

I'm still waiting.

But this time - I'll go waiting for somebody else.

I just don't understand all the uncritical devotion to this loser here.

I want a fighter. A winner. Someone who won't backpedal.

That person isn't/wasn't Kerry.

I held my nose and voted for him.

Never again.

Give me a reason to vote FOR somebody, instead of "ABB" - again.

[Fabio]

51. My Sources indicate

that he is delivering his speech this week (wednesday) on the memo, after one (1) week of gathering Senate signatures to support the claim.

[G_j]

57. that would be good news indeed! n/t

[Fluffdaddy]

58. And who are "Your" Sources ?

[Fabio]

169. they are mine

and none of your business

[Fluffdaddy]

232. Ahhhhhhh I understand............BS sources

[Dr Fate]

52. Mabey if he is nice to them they won't "Swift-boat" him anymore.

Thats it- if we are polite & nice to the liars & criminals, mabey they wont be so mean to us.

I mean, sure, they attacked Kerry with everything, but hitting back would "confuse moderates" or somthing.

What Great strategy- Kerry must be having lunches with Donna Brazile again.

[second edition]

60. THOSE BASHING KERRY ARE VERY UNFAIR!

You do not allow him any time on this issue. Was he just suppose to rush back to Washington and abandon all reason and appear the fool and demand the senate drop everything they are doing and discuss these minutes? He is gathering support and signatures. Isn't that what Coyners has done. You didn't expect him to immediately take this issue up. You gave him the benefit of the doubt to act in the most appropriate way. How long did it take for Coyners to garner support? I recall this issue being around at least a month or two before Coyners acted on it. Besides, this is an issue that must be addressed in the US House. Kerry's only able to do so much on this issue and what he can do he is acting on.HAVE ANY OF YOUR ASSISTED KERRY AND CONTACTED YOUR SENATORS AND OTHER SENATORS AS WELL, TO REQUEST THEY SIGN ONTO THE LETTER? I BET NOT. YOU'LL ASSIST COYNERS AND PRAISE HIM FOR HIS EFFORTS, BUT DON'T BOTHER HELPING OUT JOHN KERRY. THAT TELLS ME ALL I NEED TO KNOW ABOUT YOU BASHERS. YOU ARE ALL WORTHLESS, SPINELESS JERKS. EXPECTING HIM TO DO ALL THE WORK AND WHEN IT ISN'T DONE TO YOUR LIKING OR FAST ENOUGH YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO CRITICIZE HIS METHODS.

[G_j]

66. "HAVE ANY OF YOUR ASSISTED KERRY AND CONTACTED YOUR SENATORS..."

you ask a question, then answer it yourself..
"THAT TELLS ME ALL I NEED TO KNOW"

strange

[second edition]

98. Well, if my answer is incorrect, please confirm that you have

been assisting and contacting senators.

[G_j]

115. I certainly have

but why do I owe you an explanation?

[Dr Fate]

68. How many weeks does he need to back John Conyers?

How many weeks does Dean or Hillary need to even utter a sentence about it?

The top DEMs are dragging their feet- giving Rove all the time in the world to formulate a counter hoax.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

69. I don't think bashing the Kerry bashers will work either

Let's try something else, like reminding people that the process only works when you have hard evidence. The DSM is just the beginning of hard evidence. Calling people worthless, spineless jerks doesn't figure into the equation.

[second edition]

97. Well, they feel a need to characterize Kerry that way.

Your suggestion should work both ways. It just shouldn't be directed at me. Actually, being nice and explaining things to the bashers doesn't seem to work. I'm just supplying them with a little of what they dish out. As I said, diplomacy doesn't work with these people.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

70. meanwhile, look how they are trying to "Rathergate" this:

WARNING: NEWSMAX SOURCE:

Downing Street Memo Originals Destroyed

The so called Downing Street Memo - which was presumed to be authentic when Bush administration critics began touting it last month as evidence the president committed impeachable crimes - is actually a manually recreated copy - with the source of the memo now admitting he retyped the document before destroying the originals.

British reporter Michael Smith, who broke the memo story in the London Times on May 1, revealed to the Associated Press over the weekend that he "he protected the identity of the source he had obtained the documents from by typing copies of them on plain paper and destroying the originals."

Smith's admission means there's now no independent way to determine the accuracy of the Downing Street Memo, i.e., whether he made any typos or transcription errors that could have changed the memo's meaning.

The revelation has conjured up memories of the CBS News forged document scandal last year, where anchorman Dan Rather argued that damaging records he obtained from President Bush's National Guard file were essentially accurate, even though they had been faked by his source....

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/6/20/105038.shtml

[confludemocrat]

75. Cautious is his middle name, resolute and politically fearless is not in

his vocabulary. RIP the John Kerry of VVAW, you are but a memory. And as to this diatribe, I recall Kerry being more than a month in bringing it up, much more and then failing to act on it for weeks. Yeah I expect anyone in his position to act with all deliberate speed as this is the most important crime (and worse than) Watergate.

[TankLV]

263. Thanks, but I have better things to do than to listen to a 154 count

poster who obviously doesn't know squat about us "kerry bashers" and all we have done for the Democratic Party all our lives.

I have some thoughts for you, and none of 'em are for polite company, buster!

[DemoTex]

61. The Omerta: Skull & Bones style.

Second time Skull & Bones has struck in a week.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Im with Rosey]

76. My support for Kerry continues

I won't be swayed by those that bash just because we don't know all the facts and things are not proceeding fast enough. I would rather JK be completely prepared for any of the obvious tactical lies bu$hco is going to use. We know that a good prosecution knows the answers BEFORE they ask the questions-would you prefer JK jump into the fray without knowing what's next, just to prove he is going to fight? I'm more than happy to give him enough time to completely set the trap. If I'm proven wrong, so be it, but for now we need some unity, not impatience and divisiveness. JMHO

[natrat]

79. jeez dude these people are crooks plain and simple

this whole administration makes nixon's look like child's play. Kerry and most of the rest of the so called opposition party have literally dozens of impeachable offenses to work with but they do nothing. They are fucking pussies.

[second edition]

101. Are you a lawyer? Are you familiar with Government law?

I suspect you are reaching a little to far with your assessment of the situation. Has Coyners called for impeachment?

[Dr Fate]

108. Who needs lawyers to convict Bush/GOP in the public opinion?

????

[confludemocrat]

90. Good for you. Kerry position on war=Bush position on war, essentially

Stay the course, stay the course, stay the course except I'll run this criminal war better and less corruptly. The war is illegal and immoral and when has Kerry even come within a mile of conceding it even in the most oblique and cautious way?

[Dr Ron]

219. Have you paid any attention to what Kerry has actually said on the war?

That's hardly an accurate account of the two's positions.

As for an "oblique" comment on the illegality of the war, for starters I'd go with Kerry's call for regime change in Washington at the onset of the war.

From there I'd include Kerry's many anti-war statements leading up to the war.

[confludemocrat]

233. Yeah, I am waiting and watching intently for disavowal of an illegal war

But none has been forthcoming. His earlier remarks that set up the expectation of action on the DSM memo were as vague as ever, so it's no wonder nothing has been forthcoming.

Anyway, please enlighten me on what I have overlooked. Explain the difference between these two on the Iraq war, even if short of what Kerry really needs to do: call for a withdrawal.

I'll be waiting.

[Dr Ron]

235. Major differences

Before the war Kerry opposed going into Iraq for any reason other than to disarm Saddam if it were proven we were threatened by WMD. He concentrated on pressuring Saddam to allow the inspectors back in, and once back in to be allowed to finish the job rather than rushing to war. Kerry spoke out against going into Iraq for nation building. He spoke out against going in unilaterally.

Since the war Kerry has concentrated on internationalizing the war to enable us to get out quicker. Bush will never go along with this as it also means internationalizing the reconstruction, allowing foreign companies to make some of the profits. Kerry has talked about using other countries for training of Iraqis. Kerry has spoken about the need to use pressure on the Saudis and others to stop financing terrorists. Kerry understood the need to secure the weapons in Iraq rather than letting them fall into other's hands. Kerry realizes that ultimately this is a battle for hearts and minds.

[confludemocrat]

251. Not much to go on here

So he thinks he can manage an illegal, immoral war better? And get others to join us in this repulsive task NOW.
Anyway here's his real record on issues relevant to the war and post 9/11 issues before and since the blank check he gave Bush:

S J Res 45. Amendment to Iraq war authorization to require president to go through the U.N.: authority for war could be authorized only in the event of Iraq's noncompliance with new U.N. resolution; a separate grant of authority would be required if the president wanted to act unilaterally. Oct 10, 2002. NO

S J Res 45. Vote to Reaffirm Congress's Constitutional Power to Declare War: use of force not connected to an imminent threat (preemption) would require additional grant of authority from Congress. (Resolution Authorizing the Use of Force in Iraq) Oct 10, 2002. NO

HR 4775. Vote to Exempt the U.S. from Following Directives of the International Criminal Court and Will of International Community. Jun 06, 2002. YES

S. Con. Res. 23. Vote to Eliminate Bush Tax Cuts to Reduce Deficit Spending and Protect Domestic Spending Priorities. Mar 21, 2003. NO

HR 622. Economic Stimulus/Amendment to Provide Tax Breaks to Corporations. Jan 29, 2002. YES

HR 3734. Welfare Reform/Vote limiting previous rights of children, immigrants, the poor, and the elderly; limiting free speech rights of not-for-profit organizations; establishing national identification database. YES

S. 1664. National Identity Card/Vote to establish a national identification system employing computer databases to keep track of all Americans. YES

S 1510, HR 3694 and others. Facilitation of Wiretapping/Votes to increase FBI wiretap authority; permit law enforcement agencies to use "roving" (indiscriminate) wiretaps; increase authorization for "emergency" wiretaps without the prerequisite of a court order. 1995-9 YES

[tinfoilinfor2005]

80. In all honesty, Senator, what have you got to lose?

The nomination in 2008? Not a snowball's chance in hell unless you start taking off the gloves.

[blm]

84. Headline SAYS Kerry backed off yet only has his ACTIONS on DSM to report

The headline twisted to ASSUME the worst for the base and too many of you jerk your knees just as expected.

READ THE DAMN ARTICLE AND REALIZE WHAT MURDOCH'S PRESS IS DOING.

[Mass]

85. Welcome to the republican smears

Is there a Republican newspaper DU people will not believe if this allow them to promote their preconceived ideas on one person or another.

Good luck, for you are all perpetuating the RW smears.

[G_j]

89. so correct it!

I was glad to see an earlier post that offered an alternative story on this. However, you have not shared any real information here.

[Mass]

95. Why should I?

If you are ready to attack Kerry on things that have been rehashed again and again on DU, I doubt you would be willing to listen.

Now, you chose to believe what the RW Boston newspaper (belonging to the NY Post) says, it is your choice.

[G_j]

105. who are you talking to?

have you seen me attacking Kerry on DU?
Generally, I no longer pay much attention to the man.
When he made a public statement about bringing up the DSM on "Monday" it did get my hopes up though.
I also didn't know the Boston Herald was a RW paper. Please forgive my ignorance. :wow:

[Mass]

111. But he did not say that.

and for all we know, he did something on DSM (assuming that rawstory, Washington Post, and the Boston Herald have it right), which is more than most Democratic Senators, and I dont see you complain about them.

[G_j]

124. believe me, I have lots of complaints

there are Dems I have a lot more problems with than Kerry.
I am not a "Kerry basher" and I haven't bashed him here either.

but supposedly he did make this statement:

``When I go back (to Washington) on Monday, I am going to raise the issue,'' Kerry told the New Bedford Standard-Times about the memo on June 2.

So I find it reasonable to have questions.

[Mass]

134. And apparently he has raised the issue

He is circulating a letter among senators to have hearings.

I know a lot of people understood he was going to make a speech on Monday, but, for whatever reason, it is not the course of action he has chosen.

We may disagree with him that this is the best course of action, but this barely warrants some of the extrem reactions that some have had for weeks now.

[G_j]

147. I think many people have been

understandably confused. There is a lot of passion about this and I know Kerry's remarks offered some hope.
It might eliminate some confusion for Kerry to at least say something publicly about what he is doing.

[Mass]

163. I agree

[Dr Ron]

93. Kerry has done more than about 95 other Senators

So far I'm aware of only a handful of Senators discussing this--with Kerry the first.

Sure we'd all love it if the Senate Democrats were all doing more on this. Rather than bash Kerry he should receive the credit for being the first Senator to bring this up and bringing more publicity to the DSM.

Kerry's done more than most of his fellow Senators, and from indications over the last couple of weeks we will be hearing more from him.

[second edition]

109. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT !

I'm glad to see some sensible thoughts and comments here, finally.

[irancontra]

94. KERRY/SHRUB = cousins = all a setup.

I am convinced Kerry was 'IN ON' the fix in OHIO & florida. No one who understands/believes in TRUE democracy would have conceded SO QUICKLY or NEVER MENTIONED 11/9 or NEVER CALLED * A LIAR etc... etc..

KErry tricked me & I will not be fooled again.

[Mass]

96. Great - so what?

[Bread and Circus]

99. Great job Kerry....we can always count on you to be resolute!

[Mass]

102. Because you know what he is doing right now?

BTW, what is YOUR senator doing?

[second edition]

112. What would you have him do?

he is doing all he can. You are being unreasonable.

[cyclezealot]

100. we need not let this issue die; like Kerry will allow.

I made my four phone call this morning..Particularily enjoyed calling Rep. Sensenbrenners' office and accused him of a cover up to deny me truth I have a right to know.
Actions needed to get the truth out before the public...Go to your Repug member of congress,hassle them..personally confront them..don't let the issue die...demand they get out questions answered..
call cowards like Kerry- demand justice..
Conyers is coming to our town this Wednesday..
Conyers deserves a hero's welcome where ever he goes.

[Mass]

104. Did you call Boxer, Byrd, ..

All these great senators that people here have as idols, because they were very silent on this issue. I am curious to know why?

[second edition]

122. Exactly! Where are the other senate voices on this?

They all get a pass, but Kerry has to pay! I'm sorry, but these anti-Kerry people have a double standard when it applies to their favorites. The bashers are jerks.

[second edition]

118. You have no understanding of how things progress in the senate.

This issue needs to develop momentum. The senate does not operate the same way the house does. Kerry can not proceed as Coyners has. He needs the support of other senators in order to present this as a serious issue worthy of investigation.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mass]

106. Your posts are flamebait, so is this one.

Call your senators if you want to be useful. I doubt they did anything at this point.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

123. I am one of the more politically active folks around here.

I call and write to national Dems VERY often, thank you. Unfortunately, I'm represented by a Red State Senator (Dole), so it doesn't do too much good to complain locally.

JB

[Dr Ron]

107. Hardly vindication

Finding a right wing newspaper to agree with you is hardly vindication.

I'm sure you can find many more right wingers to support Kerry bashing, but that wouldn't prove a thing.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

117. Look...it WOULDN'T BE A STORY if Kerry didn't just sit on his ass.

The rightwing rags, of which I'm not certain Boston has many, cannot run with something unless the Dems give them an opening. Kerry opened his mouth and voiced "concern" WEEKS AGO, which was picked up and run by the paper. Now, it's understandable for people such as myself and the media to wonder if Kerry is ACTUALLY GOING TO FOLLOW THROUGH with his "concern" in a meaningful way.

Because of Kerry's INACTION, the story is now about his apparent careful political calculation and NOT the substance of the DSM. THIS IS KERRY'S FAULT and no other.

If we do not hold our own accountable for their apparent inaction, then NOTHING WILL GET DONE.

JB

[second edition]

126. Are you an actual witness to this supposed ass sitting?

If not, how do you know what he has or hasn't done about this matter?

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr Ron]

132. He never said he would do this

Kerry has been working with other Dmeocratic Senators on the issue in the Senate just as he said he would.

He never said he would make a floor statement or media presentation.

Meanwhile the media has been covering Kerry's action on this. Finding a right wing vehicle to claim otherwise is rather meaningless.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

136. So, rather than giving the RW this angle...why not rob them of the story??

If the RW is running on inaction, then why not rob them of the story and actually turn the story into the DSM??

Careful approaches are great in certain circumstances, but in the era of RW corporate media and media cycles, the DEMS need to master the techniques and ENGAGE FORCEFULLY AND OFTEN. Kerry's political sensibilities are not meant for the current era (e.g., his complete stupidity on not addressing the Swifties early or releasing his school/military records during the campaign). Kerry is media "tone deaf."

JB

[Dr Ron]

139. That's not how things are accomplished in the Senate

It would be foolish to allow comments in right wing publications to control what Kerry does. It is far better than he act in the moste effective manner possible.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

146. Really...are you saying Kerry is INCAPABLE of contacting the media??

Do you really think that Kerry couldn't get on the Sunday show of his choice if he wanted? The Senate, as with the House, respond MOST FORCEFULLY to public opinion. How are we to raise public opinion on the DSM until a HIGH PROFILE politician, like Kerry, actually has the balls to bring it to their attention?

Wonks, such as ourselves, are well versed in the DSM...but the VAST majority of Americans either don't know or don't give a shit until WE FORCE THE ISSUE.

Lastly, please don't presuppose that someone who criticizes our Dem leadership doesn't understand Senate rules, politics, or the current power structure.

JB

[Dr Ron]

155. Why should he do it your way?

Kerry's been in the Senate for a long time and knows the best ways to work there.

His goal is to try to force action in the Senate, not simply talk ot the media.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

160. Because his current modus operandi IS NOT WORKING.

Case in point...

2004 election (which may have been stolen), but was miserably run by Kerry and his handlers

BCCI investigation, which WENT NOWHERE

[Dr Ron]

214. Every one of your points is nonsense

His BCCI investigation did not go nowhere.

It is far too early to determine if his plans on DSM are working

Beating an incumbent President in war time is hardly a fair way to judge someone as success is unlikley.

[Laurab]

175. Perhaps some senior senators, or the minority leader

convinced him not to speak out on it the way he planned. Perhaps they felt a unifed front would be more effective. Or, maybe he himself decided something like that. He is a smart man, and I imagine he will indeed make sure the DSM is brought up. You should not jump in with both feet until you know just exactly what you're dealing with, and who you're dealing with.

The DSM is not going to go away. It is, most likely, proof of an impeachable offense by the chimp in charge. I should think the Democrats would want to make sure all their ducks are in a row, and be unified, in order to make the most of this opportunity. Patience can sometimes be a virtue.

I am so tired of all the attacks on our own that I find here these days that I rarely post anymore. It is sickening to me that everyone is so quick to jump on any dem, when there are so many other people who deserve attacking. More specifically, I am talking about the Rethuglican's who : control all branches of government; own the media; have an excellent spin machine; and seem to be able to destroy just about anyone who crosses them. Most of all, the ones who are running our country into the ground. Attacks on the dems accomplish NOTHING.

In this thread alone, I have seen so many RW talking points and spin - it's just beyond comprehension for a place called "Democratic Underground". I don't understand what people are thinking, or if they ARE thinking. I myself would like to see these minutes be the thing that takes * down, as they should. One senator talking about it on the senate floor is not going to do that. I am glad Kerry decided to get input from his fellow senators, and I am hopeful that something will be accomplished. I also believe that they know, far better than I do, what to do with something like this. I hope I'm right, and I'll be quite surprised if I'm not.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

209. Criticism of our own IS NOT counterproductive.

Are you REALLY satisfied with how our Dem leaders are handling exposive evidence of Shrub's high crimes and misdemeanors??

JB

[second edition]

140. He never said he would do those two things. n/t

Don't fault him for what he never said!

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

WFU? Even if he didn't say it explicity...what's the problem in DOING IT?

So, let's assume you are right that he didn't explicity state making a floor statement or media presentation...

If he's SO WORKED UP about the DSM, what's the problem in actually doing either of these things??

The argument IS NOT about whether he stated it or not, but in the INACTION OF OUR DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP (SENATE IN PARTICULAR) on the DSM.

JB

[karynnj]

148. I think a man who has been a Senator for 20+ years

knows the best way to effectively bring things up in the Senate. His comments to small non- MSM have given the DSM momentum. His aides say he is trying to get support in the Senate for an investigation. The Democrats are a minority party - if he can get bipartisan hearing with supoens power, it would be a miracle; if he even gets a bipartisan hearing that would be better than would have been expected. If these fail, he could push to have a Democratic hearing.

Remember in 1971, Kerry as a 27 year old vet chose to speak to Congress and lead a peaceful march of veterans. He reached far more people than the more colorful Jerry Rubin or Abbie Hoffman with their street theatre. As the former nominee and a respected Senator, it is much better that he try to actually talk to Senators on the other side and eventually (with others) raise these issues in such a way that people other than the LW listen.

Even though your Senators are Republican, shouldn't you be holding them to account for not speaking out when their party may have committed acts? We need Republicans on our side - if the tide is shifting many of them will move.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

153. Senate hearings are ONLY GOING TO HAPPEN WITH PUBLIC SUPPORT.

That's what you Kerry apologists don't seem to realize.

While it is a fact that the Dems are in the minority, NO AMOUNT OF BACKROOM DEALING amongst Dem Senators is going to open the way for Senate investigations. THE PRESSURE NEEDS TO BE APPLIED FROM THE PEOPLE, not in the halls of Washington. If the public is adequately concerned and INFORMED about the DSM, then they will start pressuring their Senators to start an investigation. We need pressure from Repuke constituencies to make an investigation happen; otherwise, this Dem DSM "concern" is just bullshit to placate the grassroots.

JB

[Dr Ron]

128. Real media has covered Kerry action

The Herald's story is just covering right wing talking points and leave out what Kerry has actually done, as has been reported in more reliable media.

Yes, it is slow, but that is how the Senate operates. It is better than Kerry handle this right so that there is a chance something actually gets done.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

133. Maybe so, but I'm not holding my breath. Will apologize if wrong...

I'll be the first to apologize here at DU if Kerry actually does something substantive with the DSM...and that's a promise I hope I'm forced to keep. However, given prior actions like this (i.e., brief statement of "indignation" to stir-up the grassroots, then muted action so as to not offend the middle or "stick his neck out" politically), I'm not convinced right now of his sincerity.

JB

[fedupinBushcountry]

142. Sitting on his ass?

06/16/2005 Commerce Department Answers Call from Senator Kerry and the Massachusetts Delegation to Declare a Fishery Disaster in Massachusetts 06/16/2005 New Report: Private Accounts Would Cut Benefits, Increase Costs for Small Businesses 06/15/2005 John Kerry Fights to Protect Medicaid Benefits in Massachusetts and the Nation 06/15/2005 John Kerry Urges Bush Administration to Keep Massachusetts IRS Taxpayer Assistance Centers Open that Help Elderly and Low-Income Citizens 06/15/2005 John Kerry on GOP Proposal to Raise Retirement Age 06/15/2005 Kerry Takes Aim at Bush Energy Scheme 06/14/2005 CAFTA Information 06/14/2005 SBA RESPONDS TO SENATOR JOHN KERRY’S REQUEST TO DECLARE THE RED TIDE CRISIS AN ECONOMIC DISASTER TODAY 06/14/2005 John Kerry: After Decades of Inaction, A Time to Heal A Nation’s Wounds Over Lynching 06/13/2005 Jeffords and Kerry File Renewables Amendment To Energy Bill 06/13/2005 John Kerry: We Need a New, Common-Sense Approach to Trade

Now lets see what else does a Senator do, oh yes he or she are on committees.

Commerce Science Transportation

Identity Theft Jun 16, 2005
Full Committee 10:00 AM
Ballast Water Invasive Species Management and Threats to Coral Reefs Jun 15, 2005
National Ocean Policy Study 9:30 AM
General Aviation Security and Operations Jun 9, 2005
Full Committee 11:00 AM
Manufacturing Competitiveness in a High-Tech Era Jun 8, 2005
Technology, Innovation, and Competitiveness 9:30 AM
Research and Development to Protect America's Communities from Disaster Jun 8, 2005
Disaster Prevention and Prediction 2:30 PM

Foreign Relations

Identity Theft Jun 16, 2005
Full Committee 10:00 AM
Wednesday, June 15, 2005
Nominations
Time: 9:30 A.M.
Tuesday, June 14, 2005
North Korea:
hursday, June 9, 2005
Safety and Convenience in
Thursday, June 9, 2005
Nominations
Wednesday, June 8, 2005
Nominations
Tuesday, June 7, 2005
The Emergence of China
Throughout Asia:
Tuesday, June 7, 2005
Nomination
Time: 9:30 A.M. 10:30 A.M.

That is only half of his schedule, now show me the proof of your statement.

[Logician]

172. I have to agree

I have to agree with AWL... I live in Massachusetts and have become infuriated with Kerry's level of talking with no follow-up of any action.

And every time I bring this up on DU, I get flamed to death by those who accuse me of destructive Kerry-bashing. I get sick and tired that when someone dares to criticize Kerry or any Democratic leader, he or she gets roasted. It does not play into the hands of the Rethugs-- it just might motivate our so-called leaders into taking some unified action against Shrub and his plans to wage war at any cost and destroy long-valued social programs enacted by Democrats and liberals.

I just wish Kerry were different. Perhaps he would be in the WH at this point in time, and we would not have a mindless, born-again asshole destroying our country on every front and aspect-- domestically and internationally.

After Kerry's press release about formally bringing up DSM before the Senate-- which he did not do-- Ted Kennedy, who really has guts, brought it up formally and forcefully.

I was condemned by some DUers as being naive about the strategy designed by Kennedy and Kerry around the DSM. Well, time has borne out my beliefs that Kerry just talks and talks again.....

There is ample evidence that Shrub lied to our country to lead a war to either try to secure cheap petro, to exact some revenge for his father against Saddam, or both. How much more evidence do we need before our Democratic congress does *something* definitive with force about this?

IMHO, Conyers is the true hero here.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

208. Thank you, Logician. And, welcome to DU!

I think you will find that there are left and right divisions within the DU readership. There are those, like myself, who are maybe too reactionary, and then there are those who are too cautious and timid. Timerity may be appropriate for DU, but not in our Dem leaders, IMHO.

Cheers and welcome.

JB

[Media_Lies_Daily]

114. Yes, they are, and so is this one. If you have any proof for the....

...allegations you've made against Kerry, post them now.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

121. Proof is in the pudding...or INACTION in this case. Quit apologizing.

Will you not concede that it would have been better for Kerry to FOLLOW THROUGH with his apparent "concern"? Now, we are faced with stories of his political inaction rather than the substance of the DSM, which is what would have happened if he had the POLITICAL BALLS to bring it up on the Senate floor or in a TV media interview. BOTH OF WHICH HE HAS HAD THE AMPLE OPPORTUNITY TO DO.

Geez...you Kerry apologists. I guess you guys think that mediocrity and useless political rhetoric is going to push the DSM issue into the mainstream?

JB

[second edition]

137. Actually, the DSM has received a fair amount of press IMO.

You allowed Coyners the time he needed to present his case, why are you not as considerate to Kerry? Kerry is in a different position than Coyners. If Coyners was a Senator, he wouldn't have been able to present this matter as he has. It just amazes me how you people never give Kerry a break or the benefit of the doubt when he doesn't respond as you would have him respond.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

110. Boston Herald = extreme rightwing media outlet. It amazes me....

...that so many DUers want to use this to support their continued and constant bashing of Kerry.

Kerry is working behind the scenes on this issue, and has been coordinating those efforts with those of Conyers.

[Dr Ron]

113. Agree, they might as well quote Rove

By now everyone should realize how closely the right wingers work together with their supporting media. It is hard to believe so many DU people are quoting the Herald. Quoting Herald is simply quoting right wing talking points.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

127. AGAIN...IT WOULDN'T BE A STORY IF HE DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

This story is Kerry fault and no one elses. If he hadn't shot his mouth off and then failed to follow through with his "indignation" over the DSM, then the Herald wouldn't be running this story...would they?

JB

[Dr Ron]

129. He has done something about it

Kerry has been working on this, as had been covered by more reliabe news sources.

[second edition]

131. And again, he is doing something about it.

Have you contacted your democratic senators? How about any senators at all?

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

141. Many and often. Don't assume that my indignation is reserved for DU only.

Kerry's office has been contacted by me at least twice, but since I'm not a constituent I'm not certain how much weight my calls are going to have on the Senator. Each time that I have called, I have been told "the Senator is taking action and planning a statement," but that was 1 and 2 weeks ago.

JB

[Dr Ron]

156. 1 or two weeks means little

It takes time to get other Senators to sign on, which would make his action more effective. The Senate works slowly and it doesn't mean anything if a week or two has gone by.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

162. Correction...the Dem Senate moves slowly...no evidence of this w/ Repukes

I seemed to notice how QUICKLY the Repuke Senate got cooking on the Clinton impeachment proceedings or when they are trying to force a pet issue. I don't think you can generalize all Senators into slow moving entities.

JB

[fedupinBushcountry]

195. Know your talking points

It was not up to the Senate to start Impeachment hearings it is up to the House of Representatives, which the Repubs controlled. Jeez, just keep on spewing.

How does Congress initiate and conduct the process of impeachment? Orlando, FL - 2/12/01

Article I, section 2 of the Constitution grants the "sole Power of Impeachment" to the House of Representatives, and section 3 grants the Senate the "sole Power to try all Impeachments." Those subject to impeachment are the President, the Vice-President, "and all civil Officers of the United States," e.g. cabinet members and federal judges. If the House does vote to impeach a public official, that would only be the start of the process. A trial must then be conducted by the Senate, followed by a 2/3 vote to convict. If convicted, the official is removed from office.

http://www.c-span.org/questions/weekly20.htm

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

212. Are you implying that the Senate cannot pressure the House?

If so, you are dead wrong. I know the impeachment procedures, thank you. But, I also know that a FORCEFUL statement by the Senate would GO A LONG WAY towards assisting Conyers in his House efforts.

What's the point of drawing up articles of impeachment in the House if there's no strong DEM support in the Senate?

JB

[fedupinBushcountry]

216. The point is

Did the Senate pressure the House, well I guess not from the vote, they couldn't even get enough support in the Senate.

The Senate Republicans, however, were unable to gather enough support to achieve the two-thirds majority required for his conviction. On Feb. 12, 1999, the Senate acquitted President Clinton on both counts. The perjury charge failed by a vote of 55–45, with 10 Republicans voting against impeachment along with all 45 Democrats. The obstruction of justice vote was 50–50, with 5 Republicans breaking ranks to vote against impeachment.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/impeach.html

[Dr Ron]

213. That took more than a couple of weeks

It takes more than a couple of weeks for both parites in the Senate

[Logician]

178. What evidence do you have

that Kerry is working with Conyers behind the scenes? Please provide some evidence! Every time people who are critical of Kerry are bashed, it is inevitably with a statement that he is working behind the scenes.

So please, enlighten me with the evidence. It if is out there, I will apologize and stop being critical of the Senator.

[G_j]

143. let me apologise for not knowing about the Boston Herald

I had no idea it was a "RW paper". Though so many of them are, I think the real trick would be to find a MS paper in the US that doesn't lean right. (SF Observor, St. Petersburg Times?)

I am happy that some people have posted additional information in this thread. I had no agenda in posting this story.

[shifting_sands]

145. Kerry Cautious

We are brave out here in the hinterlands behind our pretend names and angry rhetoric. We don't have a clue what is going on in Washington, or what Kerry, Kennedy, Dodd, etc are doing. We don't know what they are gathering. We do know that the take over of this government is widespread, from the media right on down to the Christian Right. I do know that it is incredibly easy for the Rove team media to split the Dems right down the middle. Plant a word there, a phrase here and we are off and running against our own. And we wonder how the masses can believe Limbaugh and the lies he tells, that's what we are doing.

Let's see, the right wing media tells us that Kerry is cautious, and we believe them - why? The story goes on to describe a person not being cautious, but we just look at the headlines?

We are looking for someone to save us, but who saved the Iraqis, no one. We are being destroyed from within and if you look at the handful of Senators and Reps who are at least trying to push forward, Kerry is one and they know we did not get into this mess overnight, and we won't get out of it overnight. Let's try supporting them just a little.

[redqueen]

150. Nice post...

thanks. :hi:

[LeahD]

182. Exactly. n/t

[Emendator]

152. Go for the throat

If Kerry hadn't been so passive, he'd be president today. In every ad he should have shown clips from Bush yucking it up from the speech where he was making fun of himself for not finding WMD.

It's not too late for that. Why don't the Democrats start doing that now?

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

154. Good question.

Something I've been wondering for years...until Dean came along.

JB

[Lost4words]

161. Welcome to DU Emendator!

Kerry was a giant let down for me, I'll never support him again, nor Biden, no DINO speaks for me. To hell with establishment democrats. They have let all this crap happen and have shown little or no spine.

[Emendator]

230. Thank you

The name is Latin for reformer. I must admit that I'm not that big a lefty. I consider myself more libertarian than anything. The Republicans have become a bunch a reckless nationalistic idiots, there's no reasoning with so many of them. I don't agree with the left wing of the Democratic party all that much. But I believe that the Democrats have a better foreign policy vision - which can be summarized as "not destroying the world". I find not destroying the world to be an appealing concept. I hope you're willing to put up with me. Nice to meet you.

Regarding Kerry, he was the first Democrat I've voted for. I think he was the most eloquent nominee since Reagan. Kerry definately had potential. I watched his testimony to Congress in the early 1970s, and that was great - honest and genuine. Kerry's most human moment in the campaign was his concession speech, when his voice broke. He was being himself. Too bad it was too late.

I think for 2008 the Democrats would be better off with Kerry than Hillary, who will motivate a demoralized Republican party. But my ideal candidate is Rendell. Rendell would be the first "guy's guy" Democrat candidate in a long time. Anyone who used to throw snowballs at Eagles games and who still does post-game live is not your typical stuffed shirt politician. And Rendell has a big crossover appeal. I'm from Pa and he's pretty well liked by even Republicans. I really hope it's Rendell.

This format is hard to get accustomed to. Having to title each post will take some getting used to.

[progressivebydesign]

159. Does Kerry do anything with reckless abandon?

God, he is so bland.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

165. What's "reckless" about SOURCE DOCUMENTS?

I understand your satire, but on a serious note...what else is Kerry waiting for? Colin Powell to show up on his doorstep with a complete confession? I mean, WTFU! We're talking about OFFICIAL BRITISH INTELLIGENCE DOCUMENTS here, not some wacko and unsubstantiated claim. This is what really burns me up about the slowness of our Senatorial leaders.

JB

[bunny planet]

168. Oh the Republicans really love it when Dems pile on Kerry and spout their

talking points about him for them. They are still frightened of the guy, and they supposedly won against him with a 'mandate'. The article does not say Kerry is doing nothing about the DSM. Seems to me he is following Senate protocol. Putting forward the letter, getting other Senators to sign. That is what he is supposed to be doing. Not speaking out loud ahead of time more than he has done already and setting himself up for pot shots from the compromised media is prudent. Sometimes prudence is what is called for, just for a short time. This man simply just does not operate the way you would like him to operate. He is methodical and thorough, that is how he pursued BCCI, that is how he is pursueing this. But go ahead, flame away.

If Senator Kerry never says that Bush is a liar, never takes a courageous stand and accuses him of violating international law if and when the opportunity presents itself (and that will be soon) then I too will admit I am just as disappointed as a lot of you are. I have faith that that will not be the case.

[natrat]

171. i am so sick of politicians who tow the line

we need some good populist fury.

[jobycom]

179. What a load of crap!! God DAMNED media should be line against a wall

Kerry's investigating the memo, the article says. He's an attorney. He's seen with the conservative-owned media and the Republican Party (we really should not draw a distinction between Republican Party and MSM) have done to Ken Hatfield, Dan Rather and Newsweek. Those three were destroyed by the Repubmedia, without a single fact they presented being even successfully challenged. All three were blasted for not following proper procedure.

Kerry's making sure. If he just jumps in and starts shouting like Dean, he'll be torn apart like Dean, and his message will be completely lost. The Repubmedia will dismiss the DSM by claiming that Kerry is just trying to get back at Bush for winning. And since the media will be consistent in their message, that's what the public will come to believe: DSM equals Kerry's sour grapes.

Kerry, as even this Republican hack job clearly states, is shoring up support and investigating the memoes. When he makes his move, he will have the timing, the facts, and the support on his side. If he moves before it's time, he destroys the credibility of his whole case.

This is war, guys. These guys we are fighting are not amateurs. They control the weapons and the message, and they have the slickest criminals the world has ever seen on their side. They've come out smiling through every nuclear bomb we've dropped on them. Every damn one of the attacks we've launched on these guys, no matter the evidence, has been turned against us and made us look bad, and them look good.

Kerry's playing this right. I'll trust him more than the handful of flip-flop DUers who want to attack liberals more than Republicans any day.

[LeahD]

199. Thank you...

all of this ranting about what's NOT happening is pointless. We have no idea what's in the works by the Dem. Senators and Kerry.

[Lecky]

217. I agree 100%

[CityDem]

185. Loser

Kerry is a timid loser -- nuff said.

[mainer]

188. Kerry has no testosterone. Literally.

It's something I hesitated to talk about during the campaign. But honestly, knowing several male friends who've been treated for prostate cancer, I noticed that they've all lost the aggressive edge they used to have before their treatment. They became more tentative and milder mannered. And I was worried that Kerry would be the same way -- that he wouldn't come out fighting during the campaign.

I'm sorry to say, my fears proved all too true.

Contrast Kerry with Howard Dean, who's got testosterone in spades. That's why he never stops fighting for us.

[Puzzler]

190. ...

... oh for f**k sake!

-P

[politicasista]

204. Another day, another flamebait thread

Too bad some people can't ask what their own senators are doing. A nice, long yawn. :boring:

[Name removed]

205. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Q]

210. We should give those criticizing Kerry a break...

...because their criticism is based on more than just this issue. The Democratic Leadership in general has done a very poor job over the last four years in 'protecting and defending' the Constitution and providing oversight of this decidedly corrupt administration.

We've come to the point where no one expects Democrats in DC to do anything to expose the truth about the Bush Junta. They have failed miserably and there are no good excuses left for their inaction and enabling of the Bush Mafia.

It's wrong to single out Kerry...even though he has been a disappointment and hasn't kept promises in the past. There are hundreds of elected Democratic representatives in DC that haven't done a thing to defend the party against constant RWing attacks and widespread government corruption and secrecy.

The current Dem leadership has given us no reason to believe in them.

[Dr Ron]

215. Salon on Kerry today

From today's Salon War Room:

"John Kerry is apparently pushing his Democratic colleagues to call for an investigation in the Senate."

Nothing really new here as this is most likley based upon the media reports from the last couple of weeks. It's just interesting to see how differently Salon is reporting on Kerry's actions as compared to the right wing Herald.

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

221. Key word in your quote is "apparently"...even friendly media has no clue.

Wouldn't it be better if Kerry actually gave a statement indicating what actions he's seeking rather than leaving the grassroots clueless and himself subject to accusations of inaction???

JB

[Dr Ron]

223. His office has released a statement

They have stated he is working on obtaining the support of other Senators.

I wouldn't expect them to take seriously the prospect of being accused of inaction after such a short time.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

225. Your last statement sums up perfectly why he "lost" the 2004 election.

You can't tame the steamroller media by being overly deliberative and slow to respond to critics.

Let's just say that we agree to disagree on Kerry's political/media savvy.

Regards,
JB

[Gyre]

218. Kerry's fearfulness on this issue is consistant if nothing else.

Why he is such a pansy is a whole 'nother issue. One thing to be mindful of is that the republicans have crucified anybody who has acted as an echo-chamber for the opposition and the "victims" have generally let them get away with it.

Generally, the DLC have shown themselves to be a bunch of "pleasers" who "get along" with the GOP more than the roots of their own party. That way they're guaranteed a cushy job w/ all the trappings of power on the taxpayer dole. If they hang it out there on a real issue and get hammered by the GOP on assinine technicalities, they run the risk of losing some of their constituents who listen to oxycodone-rush and possibly the next election. It's a mere possiblity but it's been enough to muzzle the more gutless dems (the vast majority) for the last 10 years.

Gyre

[fedupinBushcountry]

220. May I ask

where is the head of the DNC on this issue, there is nothing on the home page of the DNC site.

http://www.democrats.org/index.html

[Dr Ron]

222. You haven't been informed of the rules here

Kerry cannot be judged based upon the same standards as anyone else.

It doesn't matter that few people are speaking about this, or that Kerry was the first in the Senate to do so.

If Kerry is involved, the rules here require that he be blamed.

For example, puppy is run over by a car anywhere in the United States. It is John Kerry's fault because he wasn't there to save the puppy. It would then be justifiable to start threads saying "John Kerry kills puppies." (His record on performing CPR on hamsters would not be accepted as a defense.)

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

226. Dean didn't throw us a bone on the DSM and then fail to produce.

I don't disagree that Dean should be making position statements on the DSM, but what he didn't do was set up false hopes amongst the grassroots regarding FORCEFUL ACTION on the DSM. If Dean had any Senatorial or Congressional powers and did the same as Kerry, I would be attacking him just the same.

JB

[Dr Ron]

227. Who said he failed to produce?

Kerry created a media buzz on the issue. After Kerry brought it up, other Senators finally also spoke out.

Kerry is continuing to work on this, and it is meaningless to judge him based upon your arbitrary time limit.

[karynnj]

228. But what about the little puppy he saved in Vietnam?

Does he count?

Love your post, just wish it weren't so true. On the DSM, the facts, whatever they are, won't go away. There is no urgency to debate them right this very second. If Kerry feels he needs more time and has some questions he is trying to get answered or he wants to quietly get fellow Senators who recognize that this should be investigated, I don't really see the down side to waiting. The war is unlikely to change or end earlier. The house is very unlikely to impeach Bush and Cheney.

Going too fast has greater downsides. Kerry correctly wants an investigation. I am quite willing to assume that a brilliant man who has been in the Senate for over 20 years knows better than me how to work with other Senators. If I was willing to trust him as President certainly I can trust that he will do a job he's done well for years. I also trust my own eyes that saw he was visibly angry when he talked about Bush misleading us into war.

[damntexdem]

231. Gee, I just can't figure out how this guy ...

screwed up winning the presidency. ;-)

[Dr Ron]

237. AfterDowningStreet.org On Kerry

AfterDowningStreet.org, rather than joining the right wing spin, realizes Kerry is a worthwhile allie and is defending him against the right wing attacks which arose after Kerry brought up the DSM.

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/390

[confludemocrat]

252. Right wing spin? Come on, get real.

From what you refer us to:
"Increasingly, members of Congress - including conservative Republicans - say if they knew then what they know today they would never have supported this war."

BUT KERRY IS NOT AMONG THEM, in fact the opposite.

[Dr Ron]

258. Kerry never supported this war

Kerry set multiple criteria for going to war and Bush failed to meet such criteria.

[neurochaos]

243. Kerry is doing the same thing he did against the swiftys

NOTHING!!!!

He let those liars beat him up day in and day out and did NOTHING!!!!
He watched them steal the election and did NOTHING!!!!
Al Gore fought back. Kerry sat back.
He doesn't act like a war hero.
Kerry seems to be doing what he does best...NOTHING!!!!

:wtf: :shrug:

[confludemocrat]

255. Didn't he have $51 million left over on Nov 3?

If it is true as I heard last fall, then that's another nail in his political coffin. I have not heard that figure again anywhere so I am not sure of it.

[AlGore-08.com]

259. It wasn't $51 million, it was $15 million on hand

Plus a few million more in his GELAC account, I'm not sure how much.

[SoCalDem]

244. "...Kerry cautious..."....ho-hum....says it ALL..n/t

:(

[Tweed]

253. And people wonder why Kerry lost....

[kerrygoddess]

261. Kerry Action Expected Soon on DSM

Kerry Action Expected Soon on DSM
20 June 2005

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=1113

[Moderator]

265. Let's read the Rules of DU again please

Posters, here is a copy from the DU rules ( see the details link under the rules section)
----
Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

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