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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 05:31 PM
Original message
Jeb Bush requests therapy for brain-damaged Florida woman
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/10/08/jeb_bush_requests_therapy_for_brain_damaged_florida_woman_boston_globe/

Governor Jeb Bush is arguing that a brain-damaged woman should be provided therapy despite a state judge's order to remove the feeding tube that has been keeping her alive.

In documents made public yesterday, lawyers representing the governor argued that Terri Schiavo is entitled to therapy aimed at helping her swallow to determine if she can eat and drink on her own.

The brief, filed late Monday, argues that state law recognizes the persistent vegetative state Schiavo is in as different from having a terminal illness.

"Terri's right to life is violated by the state when the state, acting as her guardian, assumes that her wish to live without artificial sustenance is the same as her wish not to be fed at all," the governor's brief said. "The fact that she is unable to give herself nourishment is not a symptom of a dying body. It is the result of severe injury and disability."



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democrat in Tallahassee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. why do they only care about unborn children and people in comas?
They have absolutely no regard for anyone else's health or happiness but they go gaga over these cases. Jeez Jeb help the little children who don't have medical care or food, you ass.
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. they don't even care about their born children
Didn't he not even show up for the arraignment of his daughter?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. Kick
I can't believe we're debating the rights of a substance abuser to get his job back and IGNORING the judicially-assisted MURDER of a disabled person! :grr:
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. His Daughter Noelle????
:-)
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. No....Katherine Harris.
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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is, frankly,
Edited on Wed Oct-08-03 06:01 PM by Kool Kitty
none of his goddamned business.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. It is EVERYONE'S 'business'!
Edited on Fri Oct-10-03 10:49 AM by Padraig18
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and so is Jeb Bush in this instance. This young woman is not brain dead, she is brain damaged! What is being proposed is no more and no less than REQUIRING her to be allowed to die from dehydration and starvation! You wouldn't let your DOG die that way, and if you did, you'd be arrested (and rightly so!)!

How is this court order humane? How is it compassionate? How is it NOT evil? If evil has ANY definition in this world, ordering that someone be allowed to DIE from dehydration is evil!

:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
49. No It's Not
Suppose they give permission for the rehab, how long do they keep it going. When do they decide that it isn't working, why was this type of rehabilitation not mentioned before now?

And Jeb Bush is hardly the one to be an example of a caring individual. His only interest in this is the PR he can get from it, and nothing more. He would be right if he actually cared, but this last minute argument is nothing but PR spin. Where was Jeb when the
decision was made the first time.

This is just another example of "caring" when a politician needs points.

And you're right I wouldn't let my dog die this way, I would take her to the vet, and stay with her until she was gone, and it wouldn't be anyone else's business.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. It IS our business
And I would certainly not have someone who receives a direct financial benefit from her death making the decision, unlike the instant case.
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #56
68. It's Not My Business
It's not my business, it may be yours. I am not personally involved with this situation, and only the family members have any say in what
goes on, not outsiders like you or I.

But I think that there should be an investigation as to how money that was supposed to go to rehabilitation and medical care, has only been used for minimal nursing home care.

This is about negligence, and possible greed, it should also be about a system that allows one person access to a trust fund that was established for a specific purpose, a purpose that none of the judges involved has even looked at.

But it's still being used by Bush for his own political gain, and nothing else. If Bush really cared, that little girl wouldn't be missing, now would she.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #68
85. "No man is an island." We are responsible for what our

government does and should challenge them when they are wrong, just as we challenge G W Bush on Iraq and many other issues. J E Bush is right to support this woman's right to live.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #85
95. Just this morning, ABC News reported that...
Edited on Sat Oct-11-03 11:31 AM by Padraig18
... Jeb's office has received in excess of TWO MILLION letters, cards, phone calls and e-mails asking that he continue in his attempt to intervene, and over half of those are from Floridians. What governor would ignore a million messages from his own constituents on a given subject?
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Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #56
104. Actually
It's her parent's business. They are the only ones who will act in her best interests. Her so-called husband should not have the power to decide what happens to her, especially, as you say, when he will benefit financially from her death. I do not understand why a court would allow him to remain her guardian. It's appalling and the control of the money should be taken from him and placed in trust for Terri's care. And I am outraged at those of you who side with the husband simply because a Bush has insinuated himself into the situation. He happens to be on the CORRECT side for once in his life, and those who would see this poor woman STARVED TO DEATH are on the wrong side.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #49
84. You asked "why

was this type of rehabilitation not mentioned before now?"

The husband of the brain-damaged woman REFUSED to allow her to receive any form of therapy. He went to court and got a big settlement (over $1 million) to be used for her care and then "remembered" that she had told him she wouldn't want to be kept alive by artificial means. She's not on a ventilator, by the way, which is what most people think of when they think of "artificial means."

When you take a pet to be put down, you do it because they are near death and suffering. Terri Schiavo is not a pet , obviously, but she's also not near death nor is she suffering. Sure, she'll die if no one feeds her. If the feeding tube's removed, someone has to feed her and/or teach her to fee herself. If that can't be done, the feeding tube needs to be restarted.

This is a disabled person being sentenced to death, plain and simple. After Terri dies of dehydration and starvation, her widower will marry his pregnant girlfriend, with whom he's already had one child, and collect the money that was supposed to be used to car for Terri. The husband and the judge are murdering Terri Schiavo.

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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #84
96. Well and succinctly put! n/t
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. Was she not getting therapy before, Jeb?
Is that it?

Are you looking into why people in hospitals and long-term care facilities aren't getting the treatments they need?

Are you looking into why people can't get into hospitals or see doctors when they don't have insurance?

Oh, never mind, I forgot - she's not really a person with problems, and part of a family facing agonizing choices.

She's just a convenient political prop so that you can bellow once again to the world just how tight you are with Jeebus.

My bad!
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. he should put his money where his mouth is.
if you want this, pay for it, take her to your
home. CARE about her as more than prop to pander
to the right. Hypocrite
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. No she wasn't getting any therapy because
her husband wouldn't allow any. After he won over 1 million in a lawsuit for her care, he "suddenly remembered" a remark she made about a relative being on life support and not wanting to be a burden. However, this woman is not a vegetable. Look at the video. She is not brain dead. She simply requires a feeding tube because she's had no therapy to help her learn how to swallow. And the husband refuses that too. The parents have been fighting for custody so that they can care for her and get her therapy. When she dies all the remaining money goes to who? What has all this money gone to thus far? His legal bills to have her feeding tube yanked. (if he loses custody, he doesn't get the money because it was awarded for her care) If it wasn't the money, why doesn't he just divorce her? He's engaged now. He's obviously moved on. And in one article I read, he allegedly ask a nurse one time if the b**** was dead yet.

A half a dozen doctors have said she's a vegetable, while over a dozen more have said she would improve with therapy. The parents have sent petitions to Jeb in an attempt to get him to stop her husband from taking the feeding tube out in less than a week. (It could take her 2 weeks to actually die) Oh, if this was the army doing this to someone there would be celebreties marching in the street rallying to the cause.

If it's not our business why have Child Protective Services? What a person does in their own family business is his own business. If he chooses to beat his wife and children to bloody pulps, it's his family business. Do you see how hypocritical this seems?
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. Can't those Bush b******s
keep their sn**ty noses out of other peoples business ?
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maxanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. over 1 million
homeless children in the USA right now, Jebbie. Why not put your concern to good use, instead of interfering in the rights of others?

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SiobhanClancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. Much as I detest Jeb..
I've been following this case and it is quite disturbing. It seems that her parents want to care for her,and her husband wants the feeding stopped. She is not comatose,according to what I've read. Her husband,incidentally,is expecting a second child with his current girlfriend and it is hard to see him as an objective legal guardian for her. I just find it all terribly sad.
Here's a link to her family's website,if anyone is interested:
http://www.terrisfight.org/
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. SiobhanClancy after checking out your link I agree with you
Thanks for posting it. This case is not cut and dried. And since her parents petitioned Jeb to intervene in this case I agree with him. I think if her parents feel she still has a viable life then her husband should not be allowed to cease her feeding.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. PLEASE, everyone, read this article by a woman who was

once in the same position as Terri Schiavo. Rus Cooper-Dowda tells of how one nurse and her own mother believed she was still "in there" when doctors and her then-husband were ready to give up on her. It's both a funny and frightening story, frightening because the doctors were at first willing to ignore her laboriously written messages as being caused by "seizure activity" -- just imagine yourself only able to communicate by writing (and that with great difficulty) and doctors ignoring you. . .

http://www.icanonline.net/news/fullpage.cfm?articleid=0AF62977-0792-494F-93F1226AEE3BA02A

Still not convinced? Read this story from earlier this year:

"Theresa "Terri" Schiavo's family members and supporters of her right to live are hoping Florida Governor Jeb Bush will halt a judge's order that her feeding tube be removed and will launch an investigation into allegations that her husband attacked and strangled her 13 years ago.

Supporters claim that evidence from previously sealed records suggest Terri was without oxygen on February 25, 1990, not because of a heart attack, but because she was strangled, presumably by her husband. They point to a bone scan done one year after Terri's collapse that indicated she suffered numerous bone fractures and injuries all over her body, along with a neurologist's October 2002 testimony claiming Terri had a neck injury consistent with that of a strangulation victim. "

<snip>

"Many disability rights advocates have been closely watching this case. They point out that, among other things, people are at the highest risk when family members or others start using financial costs as a basis for "pulling the plug" on people considered "severely disabled".

Terri's parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, have been fighting in the courts for years to keep their daughter alive. Testimony by some experts, along with video tapes of the family's interactions with Terri, show that she is alert and aware of her surroundings, that she smiles when talked to, responds to music and follows instructions. They argue that Terri would benefit from rehabilitative therapies which could be paid for from what is left of a $700,000 insurance settlement currently in a trust account.

Her parents also believe that Michael wants Terri's life to end because, as her sole heir, he would receive that money only when she dies, and because he wants to marry another woman with whom he fathered a baby girl last year."

http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/drn/07_03.shtml#577


This isn't assisted suicide, this is assisted MURDER.



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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Damn, and I was going to post a sarcastic jab at Jeb
about Halliburton possibly now offering therapy as part of its services.
Damn. Jebby's doing the right thing here.
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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. He is doing the right thing
overdue, yes, but correct.

*tongue hurts from biting*
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
102. This is all very upsetting.
I can't imagine what it must be like for her parents. They want to care for her...let them.

I went to the site you listed in your post and signed the petition for her parents. Where there is life there is hope and this woman is obviously not brain dead. :cry:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
17. kick
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
19. Rattling some cages....
Post:

There was a medical malpractice suit after the initial emergency. The jury awarded $1.3 million with nearly $800,000 to be used for Terri's rehabilitation and care.

Her husband, who testified then he would work to protect her life, has spent virtually all her money to get the courts to pull the feeding tube.

It seems Michael Schiavo wants his wife dead. In court, a nurse testified he frequently asked, "Is that b---- dead yet?" Terri got no physical therapy, despite expert medical testimony that she could learn to swallow and therefore eat and drink normally. Terri never even got routine teeth cleaning all those years.

While Terri languished, Michael went on with his life with a live-in girlfriend, had a baby with her and now awaits the birth of their second child. He's still legally married to Terri and will not divorce.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34935
- - - -- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - -- - - - - -- - - - -- - - -
Post:

Conflict of interest?

The petition claims Schiavo also has a conflict of interest in serving as her guardian because he stands to inherit what's left of monies awarded in a malpractice lawsuit. As WND reported, some $1.7 million, minus attorneys' fees, was placed in a medical-care fund for Terri. Felos filed a series of petitions seeking reimbursement for attorney fees totaling $358,434. As of last month, $110,000 remained in the fund. At that time, another attorney representing Michael Schiavo filed a petition seeking authorization of pre-payment for Terri's cremation and burial expenses out of the fund.

The Schindlers' petition accuses Schiavo of "wasting, embezzlement, or other mismanagement of the ward's property" by spending the money in Terri's medical-care fund on attorneys' fees.

"While exhausting Terri’s money for the purpose of killing her, not one red cent could be found by Schiavo to enhance the quality of her life after receipt of the malpractice award. ... nd the expenditure of nothing for therapy that would reduce the pain of contractures, enhance Terri’s ability to swallow, or facilitate recovery of basic abilities is the grossest form of asset mismanagement," Anderson stated in the petition.
- - - - - - - -
"Schiavo has at every turn attempted to increase her incapacity through the denial of basic health and rehabilitative services such as range of motion therapy, other physical therapy, orthopedic evaluations and treatment, speech therapy, standard diagnostic tests and procedures, gynecological care, dental care, rehabilitation evaluations and cognitive therapy," stated the petition.

The petition references court testimony and deposition that Schiavo ordered that Terri not be treated for a bladder infection, a condition he admitted could be fatal.
- - - - - - - -
At the age of 26, Terri Schindler-Schiavo collapsed at home in February 1990, and oxygen was cut off to her brain for several minutes. The cause of the collapse was determined to be a cardiac arrest induced by a potassium imbalance, although testimony given in the latest trial suggests Terri also suffered a neck injury.

As WorldNetDaily reported, Anderson's further review of Terri's medical records to follow up on the testimony of the "suspiciously rigid neck" led to the discovery of a report of a full-body nuclear-imaging bone scan done on Terri 13 months after her brain injury. The report describes the accumulation of contrasting agent, or "hot spots," that suggest multiple fractures. In the words of an unnamed physician who reviewed the report at Anderson's request, "Somebody worked her over real good."

The report specifically notes a compression fracture of her thigh "which is presumably traumatic," according to the radiologist. Other "hot spots" are suggestive of fractures in her ribs, the first lumbar vertebra and several thoracic vertebrae, both sacroiliac joints, and both knees and ankles.

The report states, "the patient has a history of trauma" and "the presumption is that the other multiple areas of abnormal activity <'hot spots'> also relate to previous trauma."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29703

There's also another article that says that she has been isolated from activities (such as listening to sing alongs) and other patients at the hospice where her husband placed her.

People freak out over parents that don't want their child treated with chemo and try to charge them with kidnapping, yet it's ok to withhold medical care and on top of it let this woman dehydrate. (Lets face it it's not really starvation. A person can live for a month without food, but not without water.) We have people sitting here reading this now, that won't skip a meal and would be outraged if someone suggested it, but doesn't see the big deal about this? Because she is not cabable of expressing her outrage herself? Because she's handicapped her life doesn't count? Are we going to start putting Grams and Gramps to sleep when they can get around so good anymore next? Who decides quality of life? Who gets to make that decision? Do you trust the government or the courts to decide when your own life has meaning and when it doesn't. I can't remember how to spell it, but remember the movie Soilent Green. People willing went and put themselves to sleep. Of course they didn't know they'd be tomorrow's dinner. Is that where we're going? The problem is, Terri is not getting to decide. She's not even getting a chance of therapy. She's not even getting basic medical care. She didn't leave a living will. We only have the husband's word for it. And that of his sister and brother-in-law. (I think, it may have been brother and sister-in-law) that testified that Terri had made a casual remark about not wanting to be a burden. And the man that wants her dead could have possibly been the cause of her collapse! And the "bleeding heart liberals" sit by and say none of our business? We'll fight to the bitter end for some rodent in a swamp but a brain damaged woman isn't worth it? What does that say about us as human beings? I wish I was in a position to do more for this woman. But the most I am able to do is rattle some cages. So rattle on...
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
20. don't know Florida law but
I thought there was precendent in feeding tube cases that said removing a feeding tube is not the same as disconnecting life support. I think LA Law tackled this issue once upon a time. A living will seems more and more important as medical/ethical questions come up. I wish this woman has written one. Her life would not be in danger right now.

I'm not sure how I feel about a gov. intervening in these matters. I know the parents are desperately trying to save this woman's life and are trying everything they can think of. I question the judge's ruling that removing a feeding tube is the same as removing artificial life support. Would the appeal process be an option? Anyone know Florida law?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I don't
This is a HUMAN RIGHTS's issue! :grr:
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. According to another article I've read..
A feeding tube is considered life support in FL.
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
64. this really poses
a problem for her family (parents). I am shocked to hear that Florida considers a feeding tube life support. Do you know if the appeal process would help? Could her parents take this farther in the court system and challenge the idea that a feeding tube is life support?

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spinbaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
21. Jeb is doing the right thing here
And good for him.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Yes, he is!
Edited on Fri Oct-10-03 11:23 AM by Padraig18
This is a sentient human being who is disabled due to brain damage, not someone who is brain dead!
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
23. why is it
that people read a handful of lines in a newspaper and suddenly become doctors and therapists? Look you and I have no real knowlege of the facts invovlved, only some selected bits of maybe-could-be motives in a newspaper. I can understand the fear in removing a life too soon, can you also understand the problem of having some governor injecting himself into a serious personal situation to score political points?

There's doctors involved, a hospital, family members to make decisions, and a court/social service system to resolve differences. Everyone else is just piling on for their own reasons.

Always amazes me that someone halfway across the country can read for 3 minutes about a vastly complex personal problem of someone they've never even shared an elevator with and instantly know the "right" solution.



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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. There is NO dispute:
She is sentient, by everyone's admission! She is not brain dead; she is brain DAMAGED! If it becomes acceptable to starve and dehydrate the disabled, what meaning does the word 'immoral' even have in this society?
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. look
you have no REAL knowlege, and don't tell me there's no morality in staying out of stuff too personal for you to understand.

Everyone, in this case, does not include the husband, the doctor (you cannot do this without the doctor/hospital going along) and the court who listened to evidence. And unless you have her medical chart handy, you do not know anything - don't try to claim you do.

Don't you think there would be a immorality in involving yourself wrongly in something like this?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. No
And quit trying to be a sophist, unless you're a Jesuit! There is NO dispute that she is sentient; the dispute is whether or not a feeding tube is considered 'life support'. Apparently I DO know more about the case than you do, at any rate.
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. of course you know more
than me, just my point - you leave the decisions on this to people who know the fact AND can weigh the context of those facts. Some facts you may have, but the context you do not unless you know these people personally.

Sorry, but that's the truth and just because it's inconvienent you ignore any downside to governors and DU members getting involved in medical matters. Jeb is grandstanding, and grandstanding medical situations is not moral in my book.
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. What grandstanding.
I have no like or dislike for Jeb Bush. But, when people from your state petition you, aren't you supposed to respond in some way? I haven't seen him parading this about trying to gain points on the subject.
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Bertrand Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
99. Question
Why are you pulling the postmodern epistemology card yet arguing to "leave the decisions on this to people who know the fact AND can weigh the context of those facts".
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. I don't have the solution
I do see though that there is something inherently wrong with this. Why was therapy withheld? Why doesn't the husband just divorce her if he's moved on with his life, and allow her family to care for her? What if she gets well what might she say about all this? I've known people that have been brain damaged and lived fulfilling lives. I've known people with cerebral palsy, with excellent brains and failing bodies, that have lived fulfilling lives. I'm saying that this woman deserves a chance. One that she apparently hasn't received yet. And pulling out a feeding tube is the answer? What is your solution? Why starve her just go ahead and slit her throat. She would suffer way less. (but wait, I guess that would be considered murder, wouldn't it?)
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SiobhanClancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. One thing we can be reasonably certain of..
Edited on Fri Oct-10-03 11:54 AM by SiobhanClancy
if she were able to do so,she would surely divorce HIM. I don't understand why he hasn't divorced her and moved on. Obviously,he HAS moved on,and it's hard to believe it's some sort of religious thing about divorce,considering his current living situation.
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. of course she deserves a chance
but the point remains for all us to have chances we can't have 250 million doctors deciding by commitee.

I agree with your generalities, everyone deserves chances, but whether or not or how they apply in this specific case is not your or my call. It can't be.
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Correct me if I'm wrong...
Should we or should we as humanbeings get involve in some manner? Even if (by my own personal feelings) commit this horrible act. Is it not a case worth at the least debate.

Are her rights being violated? If so should someone intervene? What are the exact meanings of "life support"? Should we look at laws regarding guardianship? What can we do to stop this in the future? Should we even bother trying to stop it, or is this the direction in which we want to go? Saving Terri may or may not be possible. But making sure that no one else is put through this type of torture is. (torture meaning Terri's pending death and the anguish of the family members involved.)
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. stop what in the future?
my point is you don't really know WHAT this is. I have no knowlege of motives, you have nothing more than suspicion of motives, you don't know. Yea, yea, money's involved, therefore; he had an affair therefore... Maybes are all we're talking about.

Stop what - stop every husband who's gotten a cash settlement from making medical decisions involving his wife?

You see, you want to take the half-facts you have here and use them to get involved in the next case that SEEMS similar with more half-facts, pass laws that make legit, called-for decisons by family members MORE difficult than they already are. I do have a problem with that.

Is it so hard to admit something is outside your expertise?
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SiobhanClancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Starvation is a very unpleasant death
I don't think anyone with any knowledge would dispute that.
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. there are no pleasant deaths
it's always extremely difficult. And I fail to see how the opinion of you or me or Jeb Bush removes any burden from those who face it.

Listen to eveyone here simplifying it all down to two or three things they know about the case. It can't be done that way, nobody can have 250 million doctors.
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SiobhanClancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Michael Schiavo doesn't appear overly burdened
and some of us have been following this case for years. I'm glad that you seem to have such trust in the system,but I don't agree with you. Since I'm part of the human race,issues that involve the rights and wellbeing of other humans must concern me. I will do what little I'm able to do,such as sign petitions and contribute money to her family in order to prevent this thing,which I believe to be a grievous wrong. You're entitled to your opinion,and so are others.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Thank you!
I, too, have been following the case for years, and our Bishop has become a very good friend of her parents. There is no 'lack of knowledge' about TS in THIS diocese. :hi:
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. ok
I agree, but just what are you doing? Explain to me how to separate this from a legit case of euthenasia when a cash settlement is involved. Not always does $$$=crass motives, but it always sure looks that way.

It's not a matter of faith in the system - indeed you suggest a faith in an even bigger system for "correcting" it. That bigger system can be perverted, too, which is my point. Of course we should be concerned about this woman, and everyone else who is in a similar (but not same, nothing is ever the same) situation - but therein lies the rub. When you remove things from the personal context, specific solutions become general panacea. You must deal with that and all the unintended consequences involved.

Respecting what is your business to change and what is personal is being part of the human race.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. And there lies 'the rub'
I happen to believe that this is not 'a personal matter', any more than some Kurdish father (e.g. ONLY) slitting his 15 year-old daughter's throat for making eyes at an American soldier is. It is a human rights' issue, period. His 'rights' in this situation are neccessarily subordinate to BOTH hers and society's!
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #61
69. jesus
This is a medical situation where death may sometimes be the moral thing to do, not your ghastly Kurdish father (where do peple come up with these hypotheticals?). I am not going to get into defending anyone in this case (repeat: I am not defending anyone in this case), I'm not saying your fears MAY (repeat: MAY) very well be grounded, but because of the immense complications of medical conditions your knee-jerk does no one any good.

I'm sorry, if the moral implications about murder where as nuanced and legitmently argumentative as medical decisions then it would be specific, personal issue. But it's not, no right-minded 15 year-old wants their throat slit, but do brain-damaged people on life support want to go on? Some do understandably, some don't understandably, and there's no moral absolute you can point to.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. kick
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SiobhanClancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Sorry if I was unclear
In the first place,I'm talking about this one specific case. Also,euthanasia as it is usually understood is illegal in most places,so I'm guessing you're talking about removal of life support rather than euthanasia. I certainly would never say that receiving money is proof of bad motives. On the other hand,suing for money for someone's care and then deciding(rather quickly) to have them starved is suspicious. I realize "have them starved" is a harsh term,but that is what is involved here...it is not a case of turning off a machine. I'd feel differently if Terri Schiavo had left clear instructions of her feelings. Also,I reserve for myself the decisions as to what or what is not my business to try to change. Her parents no doubt would not mind my interference.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. Well said, lass!
:thumbsup:
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #50
86. The thing is that, without a judge's order, she is NOT facing death.

Terri Schiavo could live for years more if the judge's order to deprive her of food and water is not carried out. Her husband sued and got money to care for her but now he wants her to die, after which he takes the money that was supposed to go for her care. What a scam!
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #86
93. "Scam"--- what an excellent choice of words!
No one except the *one person who stands to financially benefit* from Terri Schiavo's death e-v-e-r heard her utter a word about not wanting to live as she does now, a claim her husband now makes (he conveniently and 'suddenly' remembered the conversation with her :eyes: ); the person who *stands to financially benefit from her death*, her husband, has never spent a DIME of the million-dollar+ malpractice settlement awarded for HER injuries on HER, yet he has spent in excess of $500K on his OWN legal bills (a violation of the terms of the trust instrument).

As Ann landers was fond of saying, isn't it time to wake up and smell the 'coffee' here?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #44
59. And death from dehydration can be even WORSE! n/t
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SiobhanClancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Doesn't this sum it up,Padraig?
"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. "=John Donne
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #63
73. Indeed!
I am boggled by the "it's none of our business" and "Oh, well, what can we do?" detachment that many here seem to have. This is no more OR less than a deliberate, conscious decision to starve/dehydrate an admittedly sentient fellow citizen to death! There would be HOWLS OF OUTRAGE on this very board, were this same situation occurring in some 'less civilised' nation, and as both a liberal AND human-rights advocate, the very hypocrisy of it is a sickening stench. :grr:
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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #73
100. If her husband denied her therapy,
then he should be sued. That is criminal.
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carpetbagger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #59
78. Wrong. You get tired and you go into a coma.
Your mouth gets dry, but it can't be more unpleasent than having some speech therapist eliciting masticatory reflexes every day.

Remember the last time you had the flu and got dehydrated? Sure, you were a little thirsty, but you didn't particularly care to get up.

There's some good scientific studies in cancer patients in the final days of their life, after they stop drinking fluids. They report and are perceived to have little discomfort from this.

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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. Wrong!
http://www.catholicdoctors.org.uk/CMQ/Indiv_Articles/Tube_Feeding.htm

"TUBE FEEDING: Medical Treatment or Basic Care?


ADRIAN TRELOAR & PHILIP HOWARD


ABSTRACT


Tube feeding is now legally regarded as medical treatment. The provision of nutrition through nasogastric or gastrostomy feeding tubes is not part of basic care according to several recent court decisions. Despite this, doctors have misgivings about the removal of feeding tubes and feel that cessation of tube feeding can be a direct cause of death. We argue that feeding tube placement is a medical procedure and as such requires consideration of the benefits and risks as for any other medical treatment. However, the day-to-day use of feeding tubes, to provide hydration and nutrition, constitutes ordinary care that does not require medical supervision. Withdrawal of tube feeding raises major ethical and legal questions, as it removes a simple channel for the provision of nutrition. With rare exceptions, cessation of tube feeding is done with the intention of causing death through dehydration or starvation.

We conclude that the placement of feeding tubes constitutes medical treatment from an ethical standpoint. However following tube placement, a different moral situation pertains: the provision of feeding through such means constitutes ordinary care. This analysis of the moral and legal distinction between tube placement and usage challenges the validity of some court judgements.
...


INTRODUCTION

There has been considerable debate about the ethical nature of tube feedings: landmark judgements in both Britain and the United States (Bland, Conroy and Cruzan) have concluded that tube feeding is medical treatment. 1,2,3 Since the Bland case, several patients have had their feeding tubes removed after judicial review. Recently the court has agreed that a feeding tube should not be replaced after it had fallen out in a patient who was not in the persistent vegetative state.4 Nevertheless, Craig5 has argued that death through dehydration can be onerous for both the patient and relatives and that there is a need to satisfy thirst.

Despite these legal judgements, there is persistent concern amongst doctors about the withdrawal of nutrition as a means of deliberately ending life.6,7 The Law Commission8 stipulated that 'basic care' could not be refused to mentally incompetent patients. However, 'basic care' was defined as the preservation of bodily cleanliness, alleviation of severe pain and provision of direct oral hydration and nutrition. We doubt that such limited standards of basic care would be acceptable in Nursing Homes or Hospitals. Some ethicists hold that the provision of tube feeding is basic care.9,10 A review of the Jewish ethical position11 shows a consensus that tube feeding, once instituted, may not be withdrawn. Ethical analyses do not however appear to distinguish the insertion and removal of feeding tubes as distinct from their daily use to administer nutrition.

We provide two brief case histories that illustrate some of the difficulties in providing tube feeding before considering the ethical implications in more depth.


CASE STUDIES

Case 1.
A thirteen year old boy with severe cerebral palsy due to an inborn error of amino-acid metabolism was poorly nourished. Assisted feeding by his parents took several hours per day with the ever present risk of aspiration. Percutaneous gastrostomy (PEG) tube placement was discussed with the parents. In particular, the risks of sedation for such a severely disabled person, who was also underweight and had a severe kyphosis, were carefully explained. It was felt that there was a small though definite risk of death from the procedure, estimated at between 1 % and 5 %.

The procedure was uncomplicated. Nutrient can now be administered either via a pump or by bolus injection with a syringe. Tube feeding has proved easy, and the patient is now able to go out for the day. His nutritional status has improved substantially. The mother describes the tube feeding as "bliss" and sees no difference between the administration of nutrition through the tube and any other aspect of his basic care. Over the 18 months since tube insertion, his respiratory difficulties and muscular spasms have worsened. As a result it would now be even harder to feed him without a PEG tube. Removal of the tube or cessation of feeding would lead to death from dehydration or starvation. If the tube were to fall out, the mother would be able to insert it within the first few hours (before the stoma starts to close). If the tube became dislodged or blocked and required replacement, the same principles that pertained to the original decision to insert the tube would apply, though the risks would then be greater.


Case 2. A twenty year old woman with cerebral palsy, severe kyphoscoliosis and asthma was considered for PEG feeding because of chronic under- nutrition and repeated chest infections related to aspiration. A general anaesthetic was deemed neccessay for tube placement because of her marked skeletal deformity and to control her airway during the procedure. It was also felt that the patient would not tolerate the procedure under sedation. There was an estimated.30% - 40% risk of dying from the anaesthetic. The parents considered the risks were unacceptably high, and the Consultant anaesthetist was not prepared to offer elective post-procedural ventilation if the patient could not be weaned from the anaesthetic. It was therefore agreed by all not to proceed with tube insertion.

At the time of writing, the patient continues to struggle with oral feeding, remains underweight and is at risk from further aspiration pneumonia.


ETHICAL ANALYSIS

The decision to insert a PEG feeding tube should follow a clear discussion with the patient and/or carers. The procedure itself carries risks that ought to be balanced against the benefits that may accrue for the well-being of the patient. Good medical practice requires the consent of the patient, or a near relative or carer in the case of mental incapacity. Whilst the consent of a relative of a mentally incapacitated adult is not recognised in law12, it is regarded as sound medical practice to seek the views of relatives and/or carers in such instances. (It seems likely that the procedure would be covered by the common law plea of necessity in the event of a legal dispute).

Hydration and nutrition are essential to all human existence. Therefore, access to food and water is a basic human right. Doctors, relatives and carers have a corresponding duty to provide patients with such sustenance. This basic form of care is not considered ethically obligatory where:

(a) the patient is actually dying, when the provision of tube feeding might be considered unduly intrusive and unnecessary. (Death from dehydration may take a few weeks, which is immaterial to the patient facing imminent death).

(b) where the means of providing adequate nutrition might be unduly hazardous, as in the second case report. Nevertheless, neither of these exceptions removes the duty to care for the dying or severely handicapped and to relieve mental and physical distress.

Once the feeding tube is in place and the provision of nutrition has been thereby facilitated, a new ethical situation applies. There now exists a simple means of providing life-sustaining nutrition without due risk or burden to the patient. There is usually no reason to withdraw feeding other than to cause the death of the patient. Consent to feeding via the tube is implicit in the initial agreement to tube placement. Where the tube is deliberately removed or feeding stopped in the knowledge that the patient is unable to swallow, the action amounts to causing death through starvation and could constitute criminal negligence.


CONCLUSION

We agree with the Jewish position that, once initiated, tube feeding is ethically difficult to stop. Cessation of feeding would normally constitute a deliberate intention to end life, unless the patient is already in the process of dying and further provision of hydration and nutrition is materially irrelevant to the outcome. Patients with feeding tubes in situ have a right to basic nutrition and hydration: given their ease of use, we propose that tube feeding constitutes basic care. This conflicts with legal judgements about the use of feeding tubes. It appears that the Bland judgement and other similar cases have confused the nature of tube feeding. The Bland judgement is based upon the assumption that the use of the tube, once placed, constitutes medical treatment and that its use is no different from either tube insertion or removal. Patients have died as a result of deliberate removal of this basic form of care. We hold that removing the feeding tube is the proximate cause of death from dehydration or starvation. If insertion of the tube is regarded as medical treatment and tube feeding as ordinary care, the ethical issues surrounding tube withdrawal and the cessation of feeding become clearer.

References


Airedale NHS Trust v Bland <1993> AC 789
Cruzan v Director, Missouri Dept of Health, 110 Sct 2841 (1990)
Strasser W: The Conroy Case: An overview. In Lynn J (ed): By No Extraordinary Means: The Choice to Forgo Life-Sustaining Food and Water. Bloomington, IN, Indiana University Press, 1989, p 245.
Doctors ask to cut life support. Re: Miss D. The Guardian newspaper 21st March 1997.
Craig G M. On withholding nutrition in the terminally ill: has palliative medicine gone too far? Journal of Medical Ethics 1994; 20:139- 43.
Soloman M Z, O'Donnell L, Jennings B, et al. Decisions near the end of life: Professional views on life sustaining treatments. American Journal of Public Health 1993; 14: 83.
Personal communication
Mental Incapacity. Law Commission No 231. para 5.34. Pub HMSO 1998.
Mellander G. On removing food and water; Against the Stream. Hastings Centre Report 14:11,1984.
Callahan D. On feeding the dying. Hastings Centre Report 13: 22, 1983.
Schostak R Z. Jewish ethical guidelines for resuscitation, artificial nutrition and hydration of the dying elderly. Journal of Medical Ethics 1994; 20: 93-100.
Mental Incapacity. Law Commission No 231. para 2.18. Pub HMSO 1995."


AND

"...There is no doubt that ceasing the tube feeding will allow BWV to end her state of forced feeding, that creates a life of indignity, of futility and with no quality at all. But will she die with dignity? Without fluid and nutrition, she will dehydrate and to a lesser extent starve until she dies, a process that Justice Morris acknowledged will take from one to three weeks. While her treatment may have been described as burdensome, her dying will be even more so. It is unconscionable to think that BWV would be allowed to suffer in this process, and although she is in a vegetative state, she is conscious; in my view, and certainly in her husband's view, she can experience pain. Hopefully, when the tube feeding is ceased, she will be granted "maximum relief from pain and suffering" as the preamble to the Medical Treatment Act requires. This effectively means that she should be put to sleep with adequate sedation, and kept asleep until she dies. There is no other way to ensure that she does not suffer during this macabre process of dying by imposed dehydration.

It is right to withdraw the tube feeding, Justice Morris indicating that the balance between her autonomy, or right of self determination, and the inviolability of her life (sanctity of life) was in favor of the former, and that her best interests were served by withdrawal. But is it in her best interests to then die by dehydration, even with sedation? Anyone who has witnessed such a process will know the anguish and distress that it causes to the family and carers, others can only imagine it. The RSPCA would be forthright in their condemnation of an animal owner who allowed such a process.

The medical profession has for decades removed artificial ventilators from patients in whom further treatment was futile, always with the agreement of the family. In the majority of instances, the decision to withdraw did not have a legal basis as the family was neither a legally appointed agent or guardian. Yet it has been accepted as 'legal' and never challenged. Justice Morris referred to the comparison between this situation and that of tube feeding, and made it clear that there was essentially no distinction as both were medical treatments that could be withdrawn. There is no doubt that there have been doctors and families who have withdrawn, or not placed, tubes in the past, without recourse to the courts. They have backed their judgment that it was the correct thing to do.

Why has there been this major difference between withdrawing ventilation and withdrawing hydration - both are life support systems? The difference lies in the emotional distinction between the usually quick death from removal of ventilation (a few minutes to a few hours) and the slow, macabre and grossly undignified death from dehydration, even with sedation, and the emotional symbolism of food and water. The Age editorial is right - this is not the same as euthanasia, and that is essentially because the process is totally lacking in dignity. It is simplistic to think of this as an issue simply of withdrawing of treatment, because the treatment is 'burdensome'. It is actually the life that is sustained by the treatment that is burdensome, is futile and without quality. It is the continuing life in this condition that is being rejected. BWV's death will ultimately be as a result of an action, taken at the request of her fully informed, rational family, with the intention of relieving her intolerable suffering, that will hasten her death - but it will not be dignified, and it is for this reason that it will not be an act of euthanasia...."


http://www.vesv.org.au/docs/symeimplic0603.htm


It is absurd in the extreme to assert that this death will be anything less than grotesque and macabre. If this is not evil, then evil has NO meaning. :grr:




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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. I was thinking along the lines of allowing
a disable woman to be dehydrated to death, actually. If she were brain dead and on a actually life support, I would tend to agree. But this woman is not brain dead, she could however be very much well inside her body. And thus be quite aware of the painful death she'll be experiencing too. And the majority of people in a painful situation have their family members best interest at heart. It's not black and white, and I am very aware of that fact. But you can't say there is not something wrong with this thing.

He won a settlement for her care and has would not let her be treated for a bladder infection. What does that say about motives?
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. The husband won't divorce her because
If he does, and gives responsibility for her care over to her parents, he won't get the lawsuit settlement money set aside for her care. If she dies, anything left in the fund goes to him. He's a greedy bastard who is going to get paid in exchange for the court letting him kill his wife, a woman who breathes without a machine and can smile and make non-verbal responses to stimuli. This isn't even a partisan issue, it is clear that Terri is a living person.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. BINGO!
:thumbsup:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Good questions!
Why isn't the money won in the malpractice case being spent on HER and on HER therapy? WHY doesn't he divorce her, if she's so much trouble? Simple answers, and INHERENTLY connected:

If he divorces her, the malpractice money is HERS alone, under FL law--- she was the party injured, and the recovery is hers ALONE, and he doesn't get a dime!

If he spends the money ON therapy/rehab, etc., there that much less left for him to inherit, once he starves and dehydrates her to death!

If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning! :grr:
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. answer me
why do I (or you) have to have a solution - frankly I would not know what they should do because the answer here is too complex and personal.

I've seen people go through these kinds of decisions and if you think some governor injecting himself into this can help install sanity you are dreaming. I've seen all things you have spoken about, people having incredible lives in difficult situations, but not all situations turned out that way and trying to tell which is which from an armchair in Boise (or Tallahassee) is just NOT POSSIBLE, I don't care how many articles you've read.

What is inherently wrong is you having an opinion at all - anything more than hope from any of us is interference.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. NO!
Staying SILENT when a sentient human being is about to be MURDERED by court order is the only thing inherently wrong here!
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. the question
of whether it is murder or euthenasia is what is being dicussed. I do not know the answer, you do not know the answer. Acting like you do know is a problem, because you DO NOT.

You have no mind for the downside of what you're talking about, about what happens if you're wrong. And I do feel compelled to speak out about that - don't act like there's no possible bad consequences to what you think should be done.

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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. The 'downside'?
Edited on Fri Oct-10-03 12:37 PM by Padraig18
What, pray tell, is the downside to stopping a homicide that financially benefits the person who seeks to commit it?
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. the downside
is when you stop legitimate euthenasia in future cases people are hurt.

You're saying, in effect, that anytime some gets a cash settlemet they automatically forfeit any say in the medical treatment because it might look bad. How are we going to tell legit from phoney, hell, you can't even give me more than supposition now - is the next case going to more clear-cut? I think not.

Don't tell me this can't hurt people. If you don't know how, you've never seen anyone faced with the issue.
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. so because
it may hurt people we should drop it and make it easier to "off" disabled people in the future?

I'm not taking this lightly. We chose not to allow my Grandma to be put on life support. However, we didn't have close family members saying that she still had a chance at a life. It's not like this woman is brain dead. It's not like she's go machines breathing and pumping her blood for her. She just can't swallow on her own. Which is very likely that she could. How on God's green earth is this "legitimate" euthenasia? If she's trying to talk, if she seems to recognize family members what is the grounds for euthenasia? Because she's damaged goods?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #57
74. We've become so knee-jerk...
.... because of the 'right to life' crowd that we seemingly respond on 'auto-pilot' to ANYTHING they support with 'we oppose'. As you correctly point out, she is NOT brain dead, and there is abundant evidence that she is sentient and could benefit from rehabilitation therapy.

I will say it again: If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #53
90. What do you mean, "legitimate euthanasia"? Euthanasia is NOT

legal for human beings in this country or most others.

It IS legal to have advanced care directives, "living wills" that spell out what you do and do not want done in preserving your life. And medical personnel are more respectful of giving people a choice today than they once were. (EMTs are, in most states, legally required to save lives, even in cases where resuscitation is not really the best option. For sure, there are worse things than dying.) But with cooperative physicians and hospice workers, my husband and I have seen all four of our parents die without too much pain or strain. Feeding tubes have been refused, hospitalization has been refused, they were kept as comfortable as possible, and all the decisions were theirs

What's suspicious in this case is not the money but the fact that the husband hasn't sought therapy of any sort for his wife.
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im4 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. the downside
would be the prolongation of a person's life that doesn't want to live.

So what would be the harm in an independent guardian? Allowing therapy. What if she improves and says thank you for believing in me. What if they give her a chance at therapy before taking her food away? What if the give her "a stay of execution" giving her the chance to prove one way or the other if she can improve. If she's incapable of improvement grant the order. If not, award guardianship to the parents and get hubby out of her life. That's what he wants anyway.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. A guardian ad litem...
... with NO financial interest in her monetary 'estate' would be appropriate.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
26. Kick
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SiobhanClancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
39. Here's something to consider
Just because this is seen as a fundie/freeper cause and Jeb Bush is involved in it,does NOT mean it is not a worthwhile cause.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
76. Very good point
I think some of us on the Left, self-included, have an unhealthy tendancy to knee-jerk and oppose issues just because fundies support them. Some things transcend politics.

As for my opinion? I'm really not informed enough to make one. This is the first time I'm hearing about this case. My initial reaction (admittedly a knee-jerk one) was to wonder about Jebthro's motives. After reading subsequent posts I'm not so sure. One thing I know, I'm inspired to read more about it. This is an awful situation all the way around, and I hope this family finds some peace.

BTW, I think it's everybody's business. I agree with the poster who said you can make the same arguments about having a bureau of child welfare, etc. We need a safety net. Not only from a perspective of just being humane, but most of the time "doing the right thing" ends up saving more money in the long run. Besides, you never know when something like this can happen to you, and then it will be your business.
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Hoppin_Mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
41. His brother is the one who needs some brain therapy
More drugs to calm his Napoleanic homicidal tendancies
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
45. He needs therapy along with his brain damaged brother
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
58. I Been Checking The Background
It's an interesting situation to say the least, there seems to be more to this if people would not let their emotions cloud the issue.

This was in LIFENEWS.COM, dated 9/24/03

Michael Schiavo received $1.3 million dollars in 1992, the money was placed in a trust fund to be used for medical treatment and rehabilitation. Unfortunately, she has received no therapy in over 10 years, and only minimal nursing home care.

It would seem that Mr. Schiavo has been accused by his in-laws of spending $700,000 of the trust fund for his own personal lawyers.

A question for the legal scholars, if the money that was awarded in the lawsuit was to be used for her medical treatment and rehabilitation, how was her husband able to draw from it to pay for his lawyers?

I still don't think it's everybody's business, and I still think that Jeb is using this for his own personal gain. But it does merit a closer look.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #58
88. Trust funds are administered by a trustee and I'd imagine

Mr. Schiavo is trustee of the money in trust for Mrs. Schiavo's care. If he legitimately could not otherwise have sued to pay for her care, he's probably within the law to pay the lawyer's fees out of this fund. The court could take him to task.

If he were to sign papers to give all the money over to charity following Terri's death, I wouldn't have to think he wants her to die so he can be rich.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
65. WTF? I actually agree with Jeb Bush on something. Wierd. (n/t)
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DEM FAN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
66. Jeb Bush's Wife Needs Therapy For Marrying That Empty Suit.
You Think Arnold Is Bad Well We Have To Put Up With Jeb. :-(
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ReadTomPaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
67. I wonder if the parents have made any of the taped footage available.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. Videos
These short clips give stunning testimony that Terri is NOT in a persistent vegetative state as prescribed by Florida law. These are the videos Michael Schiavo and George Felos attempted to have the courts BLOCK from the public view.
http://www.friendsofterri.org/vid.html

What if the gov issued a stay of execution for a deathrow inmate? We wouldn't be happy?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
75. Kick
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Kick
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
79. something fishy here
This is something for the courts. This woman's parents need to start the appeal process. There are many cases in this country where courts have said that feeding tubes are not life support. Instead what is going on is a governor overstepping the courts. Very revealing at the end of the article is this

Earlier this year, Bush had unsuccessfully tried to intervene in another case, asking an Orlando court to appoint a guardian for the fetus of a disabled rape victim.

There's more here than just championing this woman's cause.

I'm always suspicious of threads with posts that attempt to shame "the left" for not jumping on a bandwagon. This is about giving Jeb way too much lee way. Her parents can delay the husband's action by appealing and taking it to the supreme court if needed. They can also sue the husband for the money for her care. No need for the governor to get involved.

It's better for the next person with a feeding tube that a spouse or family member wants to diconnect if there is a legal precedent set, and not have to rely on a governor to step on the courts.

Peace,
Gina


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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. To an extent, I agree
I am under no illusions about Governor Bush's motives in the instant matter; nonetheless, it is clear the the husband's motives are equally as suspect. Since this case involves a sentient human being and fellow citizen, any 'error' should be made on the side of caution, and the balance swing in favor of Mrs. Schiavo.

It must be re-emphasized that she is NOT brain-dead, but brain-DAMAGED!
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ReadTomPaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. The videos.
I took the time to look at the footage. I'm not a medical doctor, but she doesn't seem brain dead to me. If I were her husband making this decision I would feel extremely uncomfortable about pulling that feeding tube. I'd let this one go another round in the courts, at the very least.

Thank you again, Padraig.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. YW
:hi:
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #81
87. I understand
and have understood that she is not brain dead. I don't think I posted anything to the contrary.

As another poster said, this needs another go around in the courts. The executive branch needs to encourage that path not undermine it.

I agree the husband's motivations are suspect. What kind of legal system exists in FL? Has there been no investigation of how this woman became disabled in the first place? Her parents assert that she was strangled, no? It seems there are avenues that haven't been explored to help this woman and to protect her. Police, the courts, an order of protection, hiring an attorney, social services.... What's happening instead is a governor is using this case for a power grab.

This woman hasn't recieved treatment for 10 years?! How about finding an attorney to represent her pro bono? It's amazing how the little guy doesn't get pushed around quite so much when he or she is represented. She needs help immediately to save her life. She doesn't need yet another person, the governor, using her for his own gain, just like the husband.

Peace and hope for a better future for all of us,
Gina
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. Yes
:hi: I'm also curious as to why none of the money has been spent on treatment, and yet so much of it HAS been spent for the husband's legal bills. This whole situation stinks, especially the parts about the hubby possibly strangling/battering her AND the fact that he 'suddenly' recalled a conversation with her about not wanting to live the way she is now. How bloody convenient, eh? :eyes:
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #87
91. The judge keeps ruling for the husband -- to let her be starved.

The parents appeal and get a delay, then the judge again rules for her to be starved. I'm not sure what legal options they have left but will find out what I can. The family has had an attorney for a long time. Maybe they need a better one, huh? :shrug:

This case is very worrying for everyone with any type pf disability and should be worrying to the healthy people as well.

One more time, this is NOT about Terri Schiavo's "right to die." She is NOT terminally ill and did not sign a living will before she was injured. It is NOT about continuing treatment that someone doesn't want. (For the benefit of people who may have skimmed through the thread, Gina, not preaching at you!)
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #91
92. Exactly!
:thumbsup:
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #91
94. Without a living will
Edited on Sat Oct-11-03 11:32 AM by GinaMaria
specifically outlining her wishes under which circumstances, it is boggling that a judge would rule to starve her to death.

There may be another avenue of allies.... Nurses. I am one and the Florida nurses association and maybe the national nurses association might get involved if asked. After all, who will be the ones ordered to pull the NG tubes?

I can tell you if I was told to pull an NG tube, or assist in the removal of a g-tube or j-tube, in this case, I would refuse to be an accomplice to murder.

The feeding tube as life support needs to be nixed for everyone. This scenario will come up again and again. We cannot rely on governors interceding for every case. It must be a matter of law and precedent to protect everyone. The only exception being consent. There is no consent in this case.

Edit: Here is something from FindLaw.com
http://library.lp.findlaw.com/articles/file/00733/001362/title/Subject/topic/Health%20Law_Disability/filename/healthlaw_1_417

It may be a start for research.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. Thanks for the link!
As one poster said in another thread, "This is wrong on so many levels." :)
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
98. Kick
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
101. Kick
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 05:31 AM
Response to Original message
103. Kick
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
105. Kick
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