Cuba Raises Salaries of Teachers, Doctors

[Mika]

Cuba Raises Salaries of Teachers, Doctors
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?Feed=AP&Date=20050623&ID=4904654

HAVANA (AP) - Cuba increased the salaries of its teachers, doctors and nurses, highlighting the importance the nation's communist government puts on its health and education sectors.

Workers in these fields will receive an average of 40 to 50 additional Cuban pesos a month, or the equivalent of about US$2 (euro1.7). The increase was to take affect July 1.

"It's very modest, and can be improved upon," President Fidel Castro said in a live televised address to announce the news Thursday.

--

Salary figures can be misleading, however, as most citizens pay no rent, education and health care are free, and the government offers heavily subsidized basic services such as utilities and transportation.

--

Government ministers said they hoped the latest increase would help energize workers by recognizing their hard work.
Education and health care have been priorities of the government ever since the Cuban revolution thrust Castro into power more than four decades ago.

[Deja Q]

1. I'd never ever expect I'd be saying this:

Cuba becoming more humane and civilized toward its workers while the US does the opposite... Yipes.


(except for America's doctors, but our medical system was biased in the first place...)

[IndianaGreen]

2. The day is soon approaching when Americans get on rafts to flee to Cuba

seeking freedom and democracy.

[ckramer]

19. this is no joking given both countries

to continue current direction unchanged in 10 to 20 years.

[zippy890]

67. Sounds far fetched but

in many ways Cuba is much more civilized and they have their citizen's basic needs addressed more so than here.

Must be shitty for them having Guantanamo Bay in their back yard and not being able to do anything about it.

[IndianaGreen]

70. Prior to the Revolution, anti-Semitism and racism had official sanction

The only religious group that is not happy is the Catholic Church for losing all of its privileges it once enjoyed at the expense of other faiths.

No one is persecuted in Cuba for their religious beliefs, while in my own state of Indiana, Wiccan parents are not allowed by a divorce court judge from teaching their religion to their son.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robcon]

3. $2 a month more. $24 a year.

Excuse me - I'm not impressed.

[IndianaGreen]

6. Stop reading the CANF propaganda!

The Miami gusanos would love nothing more than to return to Cuba and replace the free health care with a US-style HMO. Do you call that progress?

They will also bring all of their Republican ideology with them and proceed to rape and pillage their former compatriots, not to mention filling the Cuban airwaves with the putrid theology of fundamentalist Christianity!

[TX-RAT]

21. Yea i don't see me making a raft out of my truck and heading for Cuba

Just yet.

[Judi Lynn]

22. You'd be in trouble with Bush's administration if you tried.

You're also not accustomed to living in a country which has been under a U.S. embargo well over 40 years, which would put a crimp in your level of materialism.

You're not accustomed to living in a country which has been the recipient of recurring waves of violence from the U.S. for over 40 years.

If you made it to Cuba, you wouldn't ever be able to receive your social security checks. The U.S. government will not allow you to receive them if you live there. This also applies to Cuban citizens who worked for the base at Guantanamo for many years, and paid into the system.

Speaking of someone who DID go to Cuba after knowing the glories of many material "blessings," a Cuban "exile" who has lived in Miami for decades who decided to move back to Cuba to start his own political party, "Cambio Cubana," a man named Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo has been threatened heavily by the _Bush administration since he left. He is being threatened with prison and an ungodly fine. So even though he's the head of a party which is working to change the Cuban government in a direction right-wing American Cubans might want, the right-wing American President is demanding he leave Cuba.

[TX-RAT]

23. recurring waves of violence from the U.S. for over 40 years.

Please explain that one in detail.

(If you made it to Cuba, you wouldn't ever be able to receive your social security checks.)
First, i won't be receiving Social Security.
Second, i would never consider going to a country ruled by Someone the likes of Castro.

Your comments are wasted on, my materialist ass. You've got a non-sell here.

[Mika]

24. Agreed..

Judi Lynn's comments are wasted on you.

[Judi Lynn]

25. Here's a summary of action from 1990 to 2001.

You owe it to yourself to become familiar with the facts of US/Cuban history. Without knowledge of what has happened, you're speaking from ignorance.

(The reference to social security concerns the fact that some Americans have considered moving to Cuba after retirement, and have been informed they can kiss off their social security if they do. This has been done to discourage American migration to Cuba. By the way, there's a famous ex-CIA agent who lives in Cuba now, running his own travel agency.)

As for persuading you to reexamine your thoughts about Cuba, it's really not of any real interest to me. You need to have a clue when you post information that what you're talking about has a foundation in reality.

Violence against Cuba from 1990 to 2001:

SUMMARY OF THE MAIN TERRORIST ACTIONS AGAINST CUBA (1990-2000)

From 1959 on, counter-revolutionary groups created and directed by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) have carried out countless terrorist activities costing Cuba valuable lives and vast amounts of resources.

Encouraged by the fall of the socialist camp at the beginning of the 90's, these groups have intensified their violent actions against the Cuban people and its leaders from U.S. territory and from other bases of operations in Central America.

Listed below are some of the most infamous of these actions callously executed against the Cuban people:

July 17, 1990: Following the intensive lobbying by Florida Republican Congresspersons, Ileana Ross and Connie Mack, U.S. President George H. Bush releases well-known terrorist Orlando Bosch from jail. Bosch is the man chiefly responsible for the October 1976 blasting of a Cuban civil airplane in mid-flight, thereby killing all 73 people on board.

October 14, 1990: Two armed terrorists sneak into Santa Cruz Del Norte as part of an action concocted in Miami. They are following orders to carry out violent actions. Their weapons and false documents supplied in Miami are confiscated by Cuban authorities. They also carry literature urging people to join what they call "The Cuban Liberation Army" headed by Higinio Diaz Anne, who had supplied them with money and propaganda material prior to their departure from Miami.

May 15, 1991: Jose Basulto, an ex-Bay of Pigs mercenary, well-known terrorist and CIA agent, establishes the so-called Brothers to the Rescue. He asks President George H. Bush for three U.S. Air Force type 0-2 planes, the military version of the Cessna which had been used in the war against the Salvadoran people.

Congresswoman Ileana Ross heavily lobbies until the three planes are obtained. A photo of the planes received by this counter-revolutionary group appears in the press for the first time in a July 19,1991 article by the publisher of the Miami Herald, who also actually flies with Brothers to the Rescue. The letters USAF (United States Air Force) are clearly visible on the planes.

September 17, l991: Two counter-revolutionaries from Miami infiltrate Cuba. Their mission is to sabotage tourist shops in order to spread terror amongst foreign visitors. Their weapons and a radio transmitter are confiscated.

(1)

December 29, 1991: Three terrorists from the so-called Commandos L Group in Miami enter Cuba illegally. Their weapons and other war materiel are confiscated.

These three had received insurgency training with 50 or 60 other men in a training camp on 168th Street in Miami.

May 8, 1992: Cuba files a complaint with the United Nations concerning terrorist activities expressly organized to harm its territory. At Cuba's request, a June 23, 1989 decision of the U.S. Department of Justice is circulated as an official Security Council document.

The decision states that Orlando Bosch is banned from entering U.S. territory, citing substantial proof of his past and present terrorist activities, including the 1976 blasting of a Cuban civil aviation plane in mid-flight. Today, this individual freely walks the streets of Miami after George H. Bush grants him a presidential pardon.

July 4, 1992: A group of terrorists sets out from the United States in order to attack economic targets along the Havana coastline. Once they are detected by Cuban patrol boats, they move to waters off Varadero, where the U.S. Coast Guard rescues them after their boat suffers a mechanical failure. The FBI releases them after it confiscates their supply of weapons, and maps and videos they had made during their journey.

July, 1992: An operation to infiltrate a U.S.-based terrorist into Cuba, served with the mission of sabotaging an economic target in Villa Clara province, fails. The terrorist is carrying weapons and explosives needed for the job and is to be assisted by Brothers to the Rescue who would keep him informed as to the position of the U.S. Coast Guard.

September 9, 1992: The FBI arrests a Cuban-born terrorist for illegal possession of firearms and violation of the Law of Neutrality. He is released without charges.

October 7, 1992: An armed attack against the Melia Varadero Hotel is perpetrated from a vessel manned by four Miami terrorists who are later arrested, questioned by the FBI, then released.

October 19, 1992: Three Miami-based counter-revolutionaries enter Cuba illegally, carrying weapons and military equipment that are confiscated. At the same time, three other terrorists are arrested in the Bahamas carrying weapons and explosives, apparently destined for Cuba. These weapons are also seized. This particular group had left Miami on October 17.

January, 1993: Five terrorists on board a vessel armed with heavy machine guns and other weapons are arrested by the U.S. Coast Guard as they head toward the Cuban coastline. They are quickly released.

January 7, 1993: During a press conference in Miami, Tony Bryant, leader of the terrorist group "Commandos L" openly announces plans to carry out more attacks against targets in Cuba. He makes a point of naming hotels as a prime target. He is quoted as saying, "From now on we are at war with Cuba," and warns foreign tourists to stay away from Cuba.

April 2, 1993: Seven miles north of Matanzas, the tanker ship Mikonos sailing under a Cypriot flag, is fired upon from a vessel manned by Cuban-born U.S.-based terrorists.

May 18, 1993: Another violation of Cuban airspace is incurred by a plane registered to Brothers to the Rescue bearing the number N8447.

May 21, 1993: Nine terrorists are arrested by the U.S. Customs Service who board a vessel as they prepare to sail for Cuba in order to launch attacks on that country. Their weapons and explosives are seized. On August 21, Judge Lawrence King dismisses charges against them.

May, 1993: Brothers to the Rescue plan to blow up a high-tension pylon near San Nicolas de Bari in Havana province.

October, 1993: Brothers to the Rescue publicly encourages attempts on the life of President Fidel Castro and continues to incite violence against Cuba. The Brothers confirm their readiness to accept the risk that could come with this commitment. Andres Nazario Sargen, head of terrorist group ALPHA 66, publicly announces in the U.S. that his organization had recently carried out five illegal operations against Cuba.

October 18, 1993: A terrorist living in the U.S. is arrested upon his arrival in Cuba.

His orders were to carry out acts of violence on Cuban soil.

November 7, 1993: During a press conference in Miami, Humberto Perez, spokesperson for ALPHA 66, threatens that his war against Cuba would soon be extended to any tourist visiting the island. "We consider anyone staying in a Cuban hotel to be an enemy," he states.

1993: A Cuban citizen visiting in the United States is recruited by a terrorist organization to carry out sabotage in Cuba against the tourism and agricultural sectors. He is supplied with some of the materials required for such actions and is offered the sum of $20,000 in U.S. funds.

March 11, 1994: A terrorist group from Miami fires on the Guitart Cayo Coco Hotel.

April 17, 1994: Planes owned by Brothers to the Rescue fly at extremely low altitudes over Havana and drop smoke bombs. In the following months of 1994, the same group carries out at least seven other similar violations of Cuban airspace.

September 4, 1994: Two U.S.-based terrorists infiltrate the area around Caibarien, Villa Clara, charged with a mission of carrying out sabotage in that province. A number of weapons and large amounts of military equipment are seized.

October 6, 1994: Another armed group fires automatic weapons at the Guitart Cayo Coco Hotel from a boat that had embarked from Florida.

October 15, 1994: A group of armed terrorists coming from the United States land on the causeway to Cayo Santa Maria near Caibarien, Villa Clara, and murder a Cuban, Arcelio Rodriguez Garcia.

October, 1994: Brothers to the Rescue uses one of its planes to train members of a Florida-based counter-revolutionary organization. They plan to carry out acts of sabotage on the Cienfuegos oil refinery. In November of the same year, they also plan to make an attempt on the life of President Fidel Castro and other leaders of the Revolution and to continue arms and explosives smuggling into Cuba.

November, 1994: Terrorist Luis Posada Carriles and five of his accomplices smuggle weapons into Cartagena de Indias, Colombia, during the Fourth Ibero-American Summit of Heads of State and Government in order to make an attempt on the life of President Fidel Castro. However, the security belt keeps him at a distance, thus thwarting the assassination plot. Posada Carriles later tells the New York Times, "I was standing behind some journalists and I saw Castro's friend, Garcia Marquez, but I could only see Castro from a long way away."

November 11, 1994: Four terrorists are arrested in Varadero, Matanzas. After sneaking into Cuba, they are relieved of weapons and munitions.

March 2, 1995: Two terrorists from the United States sneak onto the coast of Cuba near Puerto Padre, Las Tunas. They are carrying 51 pounds of C-4 explosives and other munitions.

April 4, 1995: A C-337 light plane violates Cuban airspace north of Havana between Santa Fe and Guanabo beach.

May 20, 1995: The Guitart Cayo Coco Hotel is once again attacked by terrorists manning a fast launch that had come from the United States.

July 12, l995: Three terrorists are arrested in the United States as they are preparing to sneak into Cuba with a plan of executing an act of provocation just off the Cuban coast. Despite confiscation of their weapons and explosives, U.S. authorities release them.

July 13, 1995: A plot organized by Brothers to the Rescue employs eleven vessels, six light planes, and two helicopters. They leave the U.S. and illegally enter Cuban territorial waters and airspace. One of the light planes blatantly flies over the heart of Havana and showers the city with propaganda leaflets.

December 16, 1995: Two terrorists are arrested in the U.S. as they ready themselves to sneak into Cuba through Pinar del Rio in order to carry out subversive actions. U.S. authorities confiscate their weapons and explosives and release them.

January 9, 1996: Two light planes depart from Opa-locka Airport in Florida and violate Cuban airspace.

January 12, 1996: A Cuban immigrant from the U.S. is arrested while trying to transport explosives from the city of Havana to Pinar del Rio.

January 13, 1996: Several Brothers to the Rescue planes violate Cuban airspace over the city of Havana. Later, terrorist Basulto scoffs, "They say I was flying over Cuban airspace, something everybody knows and which I have never denied."

January 23, 1996: U.S. authorities intercept a vessel in Marathon Key heading for Cuba with five armed terrorists on board. The FBI releases the five that very same day.

February 11, 1996: After firing upon the Cuban coastline, a vessel coming from the U.S. carrying three terrorists, is captured by the Cuban Coastguard Patrol.

February 24, 1996: Brothers to the Rescue launch a new foray. Three light planes violate Cuban airspace directly over the heart of Havana and two of them are shot down. In the 20 months prior to this incident, there had been at least 25 other violations of Cuban airspace.

June 26, 1996: During a session of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), the Chairman of the Investigating Committee acknowledges that at least one of the Brothers to the Rescue planes in Opa-locka Airport, Florida, still has the insignia of the U.S. Air Force on it. He testifies, "The F is a little pale; it looks as if it is beginning to fade, but you can still see it."

August 21, 1996: A U.S. citizen is arrested in Cuba. He had clandestinely brought military equipment into the country and was planning to carry out terrorist actions on Cuban soil.

September 16, 1996: A person is arrested when he is caught sneaking into Cuba through Punta Alegre, Ciego de Avila, on a boat carrying weapons and a great deal of military equipment.

October 21, 1996: An SS-RR light plane, registration number N3093, owned by the U.S. State Department, sprays a substance containing the pesticide Thrip Palmi Karny as it flies over the Giron international corridor about 25 to 30 kilometres south of Varadero.

November 16, 1996: Miami television carries a live interview with Luis Posada Carriles and Orlando Bosch. They reaffirm their intentions of continuing with their terrorist activities against Cuba.

April 12, 1997: An explosive device is detonated in the Melia Cohiba Hotel in the city of Havana.

April 30, 1997: Another explosive device is discovered in the Melia Cohiba Hotel.

July 12, 1997: Bombs explode in the Capri and Nacional Hotels.

August 11, 1997: The Miami press publish a statement from the Cuban American National Foundation (CANF) which pledges unconditional support to the terrorist bomb attacks against civilian and tourist targets in Cuba. The chairman of this organization claims, "We do not think of these as terrorist actions," and went on to say, ".any action against Cuba is legitimate."

August 22, 1997: A bomb explodes in the Sol Palmeras Hotel in Varadero.

September 4, 1997: Several bombs explode in the Triton, Chateau Miramar and Copacabana Hotels. The explosion in the latter kills Fabio Di Celmo, a young Italian tourist. On the same day, another bomb explodes at La Bodeguita del Medio restaurant. (CNN story 1 / CNN story 2

September 10, 1997: The Cuban Government announces the arrest of Salvadoran national, Raul Cruz Leon, the person responsible for placing six of the bombs that exploded in various hotels in the Cuban capital, including the one that killed Italian tourist, Fabio Di Celmo. Cruz Leon admits that he had been paid $4,500 in U.S. funds for each bomb.

October 19, 1997: An explosive device is found in a tourist van.

October 27, 1997: The U.S. Coast Guard intercepts a vessel west of Puerto Rico. They confiscate two high velocity .50 calibre rifles with their tripods, night vision gear, military uniforms and communications equipment. These sophisticated weapons, strictly military in nature, are designed for long range attacks on vehicles and aircraft.

One person on the vessel admits that his mission was to assassinate President Fidel Castro at the time that he would arrive on Margarita Island, Venezuela, on November 7, 1997, to attend the Ibero-American Summit.

U.S. authorities discover that the vessel had been registered by a Florida company whose chief executive officer, manager and secretary/treasurer is Jose Antonio Llama, a director of CANF and a Bay of Pigs mercenary. One of the rifles is registered in the name of Jose Francisco Hernandez, CANF co-chairman. Futhermore, it is discovered that the other rifle had been purchased by a member of Brigade 2506 in 1994.

The four crew members on the vessel are identified as: a well-known CIA agent, the captain of a CIA boat used by Florida infiltration teams sneaking into Cuba, the chairman of a New Jersey counter-revolutionary group, and a member of Alpha 66.

Despite their confessions and indisputable evidence of the illegal possession of arms, false testimony and arms smuggling, these terrorists are acquitted by a U.S. Federal Court of Law in December, 1999, after a flawed trial.

October 30, 1997: An explosive device is discovered hidden in a kiosk just outside of Terminal 2 at the Jose Marti International Airport in the city of Havana. Two men, originally from El Salvador and three others, originally from Guatemala, would later be arrested for crimes against tourist facilities. All of them are shown to have links with terrorist Luis Posada Carriles.

November 16, 1997: Following a two-month investigation, a Florida newspaper reports that the series of bomb explosions in Havana were bankrolled and directed by Miami anti-Cuban groups. In particular, they note that Luis Posada Carriles, a fugitive from justice for having blown up a Cuban plane in 1976, was at the heart of the operation.

May, 1998: Two terrorists sneak into Santa Lucia, Pinar del Rio. They had embarked from the U.S. with an enormous cache of weapons and war materiel.

June 16, 1998: After several meetings in which the Cuban Government provides the FBI and other U.S. government agencies with information about terrorist activities concocted in the U.S. against Cuba, an official U.S. delegation travels to Havana, including two very highly-placed FBI officials. They are presented with precise details, films, recordings and other irrefutable material evidence on the activities of 40 terrorists who operate out of the U.S. in missions of espionage against Cuba.

July 12, 1998: An article in the New York Times reports a statement made by Cuban American, Antonio Jorge Alvarez, in which he complains that the FBI neglected to investigate the validity of information he had previously imparted to them concerning a proposed assassination attempt on the life of Fidel Castro to take place during the Ibero-American Summit in Venezuela.

According to the New York Times, Alvarez had provided the FBI with information that Posada Carriles, together with accomplices who were working in Alvarez' factory in Guatemala, were preparing this assassination mission as well as the bomb explosions in Havana. Alvarez says, "I risked my business and my life and they (FBI) did nothing."

July 12 and 13, 1998: In an interview with the New York Times, Luis Posada Carriles admits to having organized the bomb campaign against Cuban tourist centres. He also acknowledges that the leaders of CANF had bankrolled his operations and that its chairman, Jorge Mas Canosa, was personally in charge of overseeing the flow of funds and logistic support to those operations. He says, "Jorge Mas Canosa controlled everything. Whenever I needed money he would say that he would give me $5,000 -- $10,000 - or even $l5,000 (US funds) and he did!"

Posada also admits to having paid Raul Cruz Leon to place the bombs in Havana hotels. Referring to the young Italian tourist killed by one of these bombs, he blithely tells the New York Times,".He was sitting in the wrong place at the wrong time."

In compiling these reports, the New York Times used CIA and FBI files, testimony from more than 100 people and more than 13 hours of recorded interviews with Posada Carriles as well as documents personally signed by him.

July 23, 1998: The Miami press publishes an article entitled: IN THE UNITED STATES, ANTI-CASTRO PLOTS RARELY LEAD TO JAIL. The article mentions several cases, such as the 1990 acquittal of 6 terrorists who took guns and weapons to Nicaragua for an attempt on the life of the Cuban President. It also mentions the Rodolfo Frometa and Fausto Marimoms acquittals concerning charges of planning to use Stinger anti-aircraft missiles and other weapons in terrorist attacks.

The article also quotes statements attributed to a well-known terrorist named Tony Bryant, who said that in 1989, the FBI intercepted him in a boat loaded with weapons and explosives and let him go. He added to his statement that he had been intercepted in two of his missions against Cuba, but the FBI never did anything to him.

August 2, 1998: In an interview for the program "Opposing Points of View" for CBS News, Posada Carriles says that he intends to launch more attacks on Cuban facilities, either inside or outside the island.

August, 1998: Even before President Fidel Castro's announcement that the Cuban President would be attending the Summit of Heads of State and Government of CARIFORUM in the Dominican Republic, several Cuban-born terrorists plot an attempt on his life to be carried out some time between August 20 and 25. To that end, Posada Carriles arranges a meeting in the Guatemala City Holiday Inn one month before the summit to plan on how to get weapons and explosives into Santo Domingo.

September 12, 1998: In desperation, hoping to anticipate the timetables of these relentless, illegal attacks on the Cuban people by Cuban-American right-wing extremist groups, Cubans enter the U.S. on a fact-finding mission in order to monitor the movements of these terrorist groups.

The Cuban government shares the incriminating evidence with the FBI. Three months later, abetted by these influential, well-financed Cuban-American extremist groups, the FBI arrests the Cubans.

The case has attracted the attention and participation of human rights lawyers in the U.S. and other countries and is now languishing in the U.S. court system.

November 17, 2000: A group of terrorists led by Posada Carriles is arrested in Panama. These terrorists have entered Panama with false documents in order to conduct yet another attempt on the life of Fidel Castro during the 10th Ibero-American Summit of Heads of State and Government. Their weapons, explosives, a sketch of Fidel Castro's proposed route as well as an agenda of public meetings are seized. The Cuban American National Foundation is financing the team of lawyers defending the terrorists.

April 26, 200l: Three terrorists from the Commandos Groups, F-45 and Alpha 66, attempt to land on the north coast of Villa Clara province. They fire shots at the Cuban Coastguard which has spotted them. Four AKM rifles, one M-3 rifle with a silencer, three hand guns, a great deal of material such as night vision equipment and communications equipment are confiscated by Cuban authorities. This equipment was meant to carry out sabotage and terrorist action on Cuban soil.

In addition to the plots listed above, Cuban authorities have learned of 16 other plots to assassinate the President of Cuba, 8 plots to assassinate other leaders of the Revolution and 140 other terrorist plots hatched between 1990 and 2001. All of these plots were discouraged and prevented by the diligent work of the Cuban Security and Intelligence Services.
(snip/...)

http://www.canadiannetworkoncuba.ca/Documents/terror-summary.shtml

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BIO-CHEMICAL WAR ON CUBA
Information from CIABASE files on bio/chem war on Cuba
_________________________________________________________________

Ralph McGehee, CIABASE
Source: alt.politics.org.cia

BIOLOGICAL WAR

chemical war. covert action information bulletin (now covert
action quarterly) 17:2-31; 18:58,59; 21:29,30; 22:16, 35;
25::3,7,26. "germ warfare disinformation," 16:60,58; "the history
of U.S. bio-chemical killers," 17:5-7; "U.S. biological warfare:
the 1981 Cuba dengue epidemic" 17:28-31. in afghanistan 17:13,
17,28; in Cuba 17:28-31; in korea 17:6-7; in laos 17:12

Cuba. Details CIA efforts to avoid destroying offensive
biologicals ordered by pres. nixon. also cites article in the
1/9/77 issue of the Washington Post " CIA linked to 71 swine
virus in Cuba." BCAS v12, #4 1980 p11-17

Cuba, 69-70 a U.S. officer passed a vial of african swine
fever virus to a terrorist group. six weeks later Cuba suffered
the first outbreak of swine fever in the western hemisphere; pig
herds were decimated. richelson, j.t. (1985). the U.S.
intelligence community 231

Cuba, 71 anti-Castro group releases anti-swine virus in
Cuba and Cuban gvt forced to kill 500,000 pigs. CIA agents
delivered sealed container that contained virus to Cuban group in
ft. gurlick, panama canal zone. CIA paramilitary center helped
train members in pm ops. minnick, w. (1992). spies and
provacateurs 262

Cuba, 72-82 Cuban officials charge that the CIA infected
Cuban pigs with african swine fever in the early 70s and again in
the early 80s. also the us introduced mosquitos that carried
bleeding dengue into Cuba in 81. hundreds of thousands became ill
and 150 died. the nation 8/27/83 135

Cuba, 78-87 CIA contacted dr. eduardo sagaro gonzalez
while he taking a medical course in mexico in 78. sagaro traveled
to mozambique in 79 where he recruited and close to douglas james
smith, the cos in maputo. CIA wanted info on fidel's health and
info on pesticide reserves to combat the dengue epidemic. CIA
also had asked another agent many questions relating to bio and
chemical war. CIA convinced manufacturer of containers for
fumigating (dengue fever) mosquitoes to make them without a head
of fumigator - rendering them useless. ridenour, r. (1991). back
fire: the CIA's biggest burn 77

Cuba, 79-82 when CIA agent davidson left Cuba he
instructed officers bruce timpton and richard brennan to keep in
touch with agronomist lopez nunez. they asked for samples of
tobacco leaves. ridenour, r. (1991). back fire: the CIA's biggest
burn 78

Cuba, 79 orlando argudin lopez, aka oscar aka rolando was
told by his CIA handler in paris in 79 that CIA was introducing
diseases to affect people and animals. ridenour, r. (1991). back
fire: the CIA's biggest burn 74

Cuba, 81 300,000 people had dengue fever. two years
earlier swine fever devastated the island nation. entire tobacco
crop attacked by mildew; sugar cane had fungus. Cuban double
agents received reporting requirements from CIA re those events.
top secret 0-88 9-11

Cuba, 81 dengue fever type 2 broke out in Cuba 2 months
after CIA query re topic to Cuban double agent maria
santiesteban. she worked with dse for 11 years and recruited her
husband, jose alberto puig aka abelardo. ridenour, r. (1991).
back fire: the CIA's biggest burn 71

Cuba, 93 Cuba said an epidemic affecting eyesight - optic
neuritis - may have been deliberately introduced from abroad.
washington times 5/1/93 a2

Cuba, 95-97 Cuba showed a u.n. meeting against biological
weapons, pictures of a U.S. op to plague Cuba with a crop-eating
pest and called for an international investigation. it is the
first time the biological weapons convention is dealing with a
complaint under a 1991 provision that lets a nation that believes
it has come under biological attack seek an investigation. a u.n.
meeting on Cuba's charges ended inconclusively in geneva. in
talks held under a cold war-era treaty which bans biological
weapons but lacks a verification mechanism, havana failed to get
the investigation it wanted and washington was unable to close
the matter. johnpike fas.org 9/2/97

Cuba, 96-97 Cuba said the us government unleashed biowar
against Cuba. granma newspaper provided a map of us state
department aircraft's trajectory over Cuba last october 21st, the
date of the first appearance of the thrips palmi insect plague in
western and central Cuba, and the dates of Cuba's official note
of protest to the us interests section in havana as well as the
response to that protest. on 2/12/97 -- the us interests section
said the sr2 aircraft, turned on its smoke generator to warn a
nearby Cuban commercial airliner of its presence in the region.
the sr2 used by the state department for the fumigation of drug
crops is known to have two dispersion systems: one for aerosols
and liquid particles, and one for solid particles, but is not
known to carry a smoke generator. the Cuban pilot who spotted the
aircraft, and who has experience in fumigation said that the us
aircraft did not launch smoke, but rather a substance. rhc
radiohc.org 5/7/97

Cuba, 96 note 4/28/97 from Cuba to u.n. secretary-general
re the thrips palmi plague. on 10/21/96, at 10.08 hours, crew
members of (Cuban airlines), saw a single-engine airplane
apparently spraying or sprinkling unknown substances - some seven
times. located 25 to 30 kilo metres south of varadero. the flight
was a fumigation aircraft model sar, register n3093m, operated by
the state department. the airplane had taken off from patrick air
force base, bound for grand cayman. the Cubana pilot reported to
flight control the release of unknown substances, in the form of
a white or greyish mist, by the sar airplane. 12/18/96, the first
signs of thrips plague appeared in matanzas province. after a
protest note on 2/12/97, the us interest section in havana,
stated, the pilot had, during his flight, seen a Cuban commercial
airplane flying below, and as he was not certain of having seen,
"following caution and safety procedures," and with the purpose
of securing a positive visual contact, the pilot used the "smoke
generator" of his aircraft, in order to "indicate its location"
adding that "the smoke vanished and no fluid was poured from the
airplane." the sar aircraft, register n3093m, is used by the
state department in the struggle against drug trafficking, to
destroy crops. the aircraft utilizes two sprinkling systems: one
for the use of aerosols and liquid particles and another for
dropping solid particles. the investigations show, the appearance
of thrips palmi in mananas province with the dropping, on
10/21/96, of an unknown substance. protest note 6/29/93

Cuba, switzerland, 96-97 - Cuba charged the U.S. sprayed
it with a hungry insect that is devouring its crops. at a meeting
here of the 138 nations that signed the 1972 convention on
biological weapons, Cuba demanded an investigation into claim
that a U.S. state dept plane spewed an agent known as thrips
palmi over Cuba last october. charges provide a test for the
accord, intended to ban germ warfare. accord now includes no
provisions for verification or enforcement. now negotiators
trying to add powers that were built into the post-cold war
treaties to ban chemical weapons and nuclear test explosions. the
tiny insect, which severely damages practically every crop,
started showing up in potato plantations about two months after
the october flyover. washington post 8/26/97 a12

Cuba, switzerland, 97 Cuban accuses U.S. government
crop-dusting plane for spraying a substance over Cuba in october
96 that led to the appearance in december of a crop pest. the
potato bug was dropped on 10/21/96 by an s2r crop-dusting plane
operated by the state department -- who says the plane overflew
Cuba, but emitted only smoke. washington times 8/26/97 a10

Cuba, 61 CIA used weather modification and swine fever
virus against Cuba. richelson, j.t. (1985). the U.S. intelligence
community 231

Cuba, 79-81 Castro said CIA probably behind hemorrhagic
dengue where in 7 weeks 113 people died and 300,000 infected. he
raised questions about african swine fever, sugar cane rust and
blue mold on tobacco that hit Cuba beginning 79 counterspy 2/82
6-8

Cuba, 81 various evidence including testimony suggests
that CIA thru Cuban exile terrorist org omega 7 spread epidemic
of dengue fever. covert action information bulletin (now covert
action quarterly) fall 84 22 & summer 82 28-31

Cuba, 61-81 Cuban sugar contaminated, infected turkeys
virus, 8000 died. 71 created african swine fever, 500,000 pigs
killed. 81 epidemic dengue fever 300,000 cases reported. blum, w.
(1986). the CIA a forgotten history 211

Cuba, plans against Cuba's sugar crop. ranelagh, j. (1986).
the agency 386

Cuba, 71 U.S. intel source said the CIA gave an
anti-Castro group a container filled with african swine fever
virus which caused the slaughter of 500,000 pigs to prevent a
nationwide epidemic. wp 1/9/77, first principles 2/77 p12

CHEMICAL WAR

94-95 in 94 at maximum biosafety level 4 at the U.S. army
medical research institute of infectious diseases, the fort
detrick "biological weapons" center, a controlled experiment was
run with what is probably the world's most deadly organism: elgon
filoviruses. these fragile tapes of rna in thin, protein-walled
molecular tubes a few microns long share seven common proteins,
and the army experiment showed that the most fulminating,
hemorrhagic subtype, ebola zaire could pass airborne from one
monkey to another. in biological warfare lingo, ebola zaire
filovirus is a true "slate-wiper:" in a modern hospital, it will
kill nine out of 10 infected persons in 24 to 48 hours. there are
no known antibodies or counter-measures and its molecular
structure is indistinguishable from other filoviruses, the least
"fulminating" of which kills one in four persons in 24 to 48
hours. after a few days or weeks of incubation in a mammal host,
a filovirus multiples inordinately, congealing blood platelets
and softening organ tissue into jelly. first, capillaries, then
larger blood vessels fill, swell and burst, leaving the host
bleeding massively internally and also externally through all
orifices. intelligence - a computerized intelligence newsletter
published in france 2/27/95 2 biological war. covert action
information bulletin (now covert action quarterly) 17:2-31;
18:58,59; 21:29,30; 22:16, 35; 25::3,7,26. "germ warfare
disinformation," 16:60,58; "the history of U.S. bio-chemical
killers," 17:5-7; "U.S. biological warfare: the 1981 Cuba dengue
epidemic" 17:28-31. in afghanistan 17:13, 17,28; in Cuba
17:28-31; in korea 17:6-7; in laos 17:12

Cuba, 61-62 op mongoose begun in 11/61 to overthrow
Castro. a wide range of ops from intel and propaganda, to
sabotage of factories and installations, bombing power lines,
spreading chemicals on sugar fields to sicken cane cutters, and
several plots to murder Castro. watson, b., watson, s. & hopple,
g. (1990). united states intelligence: an encyclopedia 364

Cuba, 61-81 Cuban sugar contaminated, infected Cubans
turkeys virus, 8000 died. 71 created african swine fever, 500,000
pigs killed. 81 epidemic dengue fever 300,000 cases reported.
blum, w. (1986). the CIA a forgotten history 211

Cuba, 66-87 in july 87 Cuban gvt revealed the identities
of 26 Cubans and one italian who had served as double agents for
the Cuban gvt while ostensibly working for the CIA (double
agents). Cuban tv ran an 11-part series on the 26. series exposed
CIA attempts to spread dengue fever and crop diseases and efforts
to assassinate Castro. nacla (magazine re latin america) 9/89 6

Cuba, 69-70 CIA used weather modification to ravage
Cuba's sugar crop. it seeded rain clouds in non-agricultural
areas that left cane fields arid. blum, w. (1986). the CIA a
forgotten history 211

Cuba, 69-70 CIA apparently used weather modification to
destabilize Cuba's food crop and export income. planes from china
lake naval weapons center in california overflew Cuba seeding
rain clouds that precipitated torrential rains over
nonagricultural areas and left cane fields dry. CIA used
international research and technology corporation in this op as
reported by one of institutions leaders, lowell ponte in nyt,
6/27/76. dutch scientists jaap van ginneken supported ponte's
claim. ridenour, r. (1991). back fire: the CIA's biggest burn 73

Cuba, 69-70 planes from the china lake naval weapons
center in california overflew Cuba, seeding rain clouds with
crystals that precipitated torrential rains over nonagricultural
areas and left the cane fields arid. richelson, j.t. (1985). the
U.S. intelligence community 231

Cuba, 71-83 sudden outbreaks of sogata rice blight in 71,
african swine fever in 71 and 79, sugar cane rust and smut in
78-79, blue tobacco mold in 79, newcastle disease in 82, and
coffee smut in 83 caused serious damage to Cuban economy.
ridenour, r. (1991). back fire: the CIA's biggest burn 73

Cuba, 80-84 eduardo victor arrocena perez, head of
CIA-financed group, omega-7, tried for assassinating felix
garcia, a Cuban diplomat in new york on 9/11/80. arrocena was a
CIA agent. during trial he testified CIA had given him chemicals
to produce sickness in Cuba. ridenour, r. (1991). back fire: the
CIA's biggest burn 78-9
(snip/...)

http://www.newsmakingnews.com/biowarfarecrops4,2,00.htm

[Beel2112]

153. I like how they completely ignored your point...

..that the number of people "fleeing" the US to Cuba could probably be counted on one hand, yet for some odd reason, hundreds of thousands of Cubans emigrated from their homeland after Castro took over and thousands risked their very lives to flee. It's almost as if they know something that some people here refuse to believe. Almost.

Interesting little factoid:

A very conservative estimate of 375,000 people have fled Cuba for the US (and just the US) over the years. (http://www.answers.com/topic/cuba) Yet the current population of Cuba is 11,350,000. Or in other words, a bare minimum of 3.3% of their population has left {bear in mind the population back when the exodus began would have been smaller}. In retrospect, 3.3% of the the current US population would be ~9.8 million people. (Which by odd coincidence, would come fairly close to doubling Cuba's population. Not that Cuba would need to worry, because the odds of this happening are zero.)

Here's another source putting the estimate at not 375,000 people, but over 1 million (and that's just the legal emigration):
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/juanclark.cuba/clark97.humrtscond.html
(Let me guess--you'll believe them when they say they've worked with AI, but you won't believe them here even though you won't cite any data to support your dismissal of their claims.

Nor will you accept any of these dozens of different sources they cite, {including the UN & The New York Times} regarding Cuba's human rights record:
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/humrts.html

Source for populations (Yes, it's the CIA Factbook!!! I can't wait to see you dismiss this without providing an alternative source...):
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2119.html

[Massacure]

26. Except that rent, education, and healthcare are free.

Plus food, utilities, and transportation are dirt cheap there.

[Judi Lynn]

36. Yeah. It hardly seems worth getting out of bed in the morning

and helping the children of your country achieve one of the highest records of literacy in the world, or, as a doctor, helping to bring your country out of a feudal state (among the vast majority: the former poor under Batista) into a well-functioning, healthy society.

.....Praise for Cuba's social equality and security has even come from the World Bank itself. In April, World Bank president James Wolfenson admitted that “if you judge the country by education and health they've done a terrific job”.

Different values
But underlying Cuba's success is a value system fundamentally opposed to everything that the World Bank stands for.

It is not because they have discovered the secret to economic efficiency that the Cubans are able to have highly developed social services. Rather their achievements are the result of having a government that places the welfare of all its citizens above the pursuit of private profit, and uses the active participation of its citizens in decision-making to ensure that this people-before-profits values system is reflected in all aspects of social life.
(snip/...)

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2001/457/457p18.htm

[Igel]

90. I don't know whether to be impressed or not.

It's not the amount of money, in $; it's what it provides, and what it needs to provide.

It's like being told that "prud" is a Slavic word, with no additional information--the only possible response is, So what?

[davepc]

4. So there up to what, 40 dollars a month?

[IndianaGreen]

5. "most citizens pay no rent, education and health care are free"

Salary figures can be misleading, however, as most citizens pay no rent, education and health care are free, and the government offers heavily subsidized basic services such as utilities and transportation.

Many of those to receive the new salaries also benefited from an earlier increase to the island's minimum wage, under which the salaries of nearly 1.7 million low-wage workers were doubled May 1.

The positive economic news has come on the heels of new optimism based on oil prospects off Cuba's northern coast and strengthened economic ties with China and Venezuela.

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?Feed=AP&Date=20050623&ID=4904654

What can you say for our glorious capitalist paradise where workers have seen the owners move their jobs overseas in order to maximize profits, and where health insurance is prohibitively expensive, and higher education is beyond the reach of most workers?

I'll take Cuba over Bush's budding gulag in America any day!

BTW, young Cuban men don't have to worry about their government sending them to the Middle East to spread Christianity and conquer oil fields!

[davepc]

7. and most citizens live in squalor, cant speak out against the government

and are so desperate to leave they make rafts out of 1950's Chevys risking DEATH to cross the 90 mile straight to reach Florida.

Cuba is such a glorious place that people cant wait to drown in order to get out!





Meanwhile...foreign tourist enjoy a topical paradise just a few miles away:




workers paradise.

[IndianaGreen]

8. And the US has kept an embargo against Cuba for decades

The people that flee Cuba are repeat fleers, that are trying to enter the US for the same perceived economic opportunities that motivate Mexicans to cross the border.

Lift the embargo and stop victimizing the people of Cuba simply because they refuse to kiss American ass!

[TeddyBear77]

39. Ok

So the economic problems in Cuba are due mostly to our embargo? No, they're due to inefficiencies in their economic system. Duh.

[cire4]

41. So that means that the trade embargo shouldn't be lifted???

Even if they have an inefficient economic system, lifting the trade embargo would still improve their economy and increase the quality of life of many Cubans.

[Judi Lynn]

43. You need to do your homework.

"Denial of Food and Medicine:
The Impact Of The U.S. Embargo
On The Health And Nutrition In Cuba"
-An Executive Summary-
American Association for World Health Report
Summary of Findings
March 1997

After a year-long investigation, the American Association for World Health has determined that the U.S. embargo of Cuba has dramatically harmed the health and nutrition of large numbers of ordinary Cuban citizens. As documented by the attached report, it is our expert medical opinion that the U.S. embargo has caused a significant rise in suffering-and even deaths-in Cuba. For several decades the U.S. embargo has imposed significant financial burdens on the Cuban health care system. But since 1992 the number of unmet medical needs patients going without essential drugs or doctors performing medical procedures without adequate equipment-has sharply accelerated. This trend is directly linked to the fact that in 1992 the U.S. trade embargo-one of the most stringent embargoes of its kind, prohibiting the sale of food and sharply restricting the sale of medicines and medical equipment-was further tightened by the 1992 Cuban Democracy Act.

A humanitarian catastrophe has been averted only because the Cuban government has maintained a high level of budgetary support for a health care system designed to deliver primary and preventive health care to all of its citizens. Cuba still has an infant mortality rate half that of the city of Washington, D.C.. Even so, the U.S. embargo of food and the de facto embargo on medical supplies has wreaked havoc with the island's model primary health care system. The crisis has been compounded by the country's generally weak economic resources and by the loss of trade with the Soviet bloc.

Recently four factors have dangerously exacerbated the human effects of this 37-year-old trade embargo. All four factors stem from little-understood provisions of the U.S. Congress' 1992 Cuban Democracy Act (CDA):

1. A Ban on Subsidiary Trade: Beginning in 1992, the Cuban Democracy Act imposed a ban on subsidiary trade with Cuba. This ban has severely constrained Cuba's ability to import medicines and medical supplies from third country sources. Moreover, recent corporate buyouts and mergers between major U.S. and European pharmaceutical companies have further reduced the number of companies permitted to do business with Cuba.
   
2. Licensing Under the Cuban Democracy Act: The U.S. Treasury and Commerce Departments are allowed in principle to license individual sales of medicines and medical supplies, ostensibly for humanitarian reasons to mitigate the embargo's impact on health care delivery. In practice, according to U.S. corporate executives, the licensing provisions are so arduous as to have had the opposite effect. As implemented, the licensing provisions actively discourage any medical commerce. The number of such licenses granted-or even applied for since 1992-is minuscule. Numerous licenses for medical equipment and medicines have been denied on the grounds that these exports "would be detrimental to U.S. foreign policy interests."
   
3. Shipping Since 1992:The embargo has prohibited ships from loading or unloading cargo in U.S. ports for 180 days after delivering cargo to Cuba. This provision has strongly discouraged shippers from delivering medical equipment to Cuba. Consequently shipping costs have risen dramatically and further constricted the flow of food, medicines, medical supplies and even gasoline for ambulances. From 1993 to 1996, Cuban companies spent an additional $8.7 million on shipping medical imports from Asia, Europe and South America rather than from the neighboring United States.
   
4. Humanitarian Aid: Charity is an inadequate alternative to free trade in medicines, medical supplies and food. Donations from U.S. non-governmental organizations and international agencies do not begin to compensate for the hardships inflicted by the embargo on the Cuban public health system. In any case, delays in licensing and other restrictions have severely discouraged charitable contributions from the U.S.

Taken together, these four factors have placed severe strains on the Cuban health system. The declining availability of food stuffs, medicines and such basic medical supplies as replacement parts for thirty-year-old X-ray machines is taking a tragic human toll. The embargo has closed so many windows that in some instances Cuban physicians have found it impossible to obtain life-saving medicines from any source, under any circumstances. Patients have died. In general, a relatively sophisticated and comprehensive public health system is being systematically stripped of essential resources. High-technology hospital wards devoted to cardiology and nephrology are particularly under siege. But so too are such basic aspects of the health system as water quality and food security. Specifically, the AAWH's team of nine medical experts identified the following health problems affected by the embargo:

1. Malnutrition: The outright ban on the sale of American foodstuffs has contributed to serious nutritional deficits, particularly among pregnant women, leading to an increase in low birth-weight babies. In addition, food shortages were linked to a devastating outbreak of neuropathy numbering in the tens of thousands. By one estimate, daily caloric intake dropped 33 percent between 1989 and 1993.
   
2. Water Quality: The embargo is severely restricting Cuba's access to water treatment chemicals and spare-parts for the island's water supply system. This has led to serious cutbacks in supplies of safe drinking water, which in turn has become a factor in the rising incidence of morbidity and mortality rates from water-borne diseases.
   
3. Medicines & Equipment: Of the 1,297 medications available in Cuba in 1991, physicians now have access to only 889 of these same medicines - and many of these are available only intermittently. Because most major new drugs are developed by U.S. pharmaceuticals, Cuban physicians have access to less than 50 percent of the new medicines available on the world market. Due to the direct or indirect effects of the embargo, the most routine medical supplies are in short supply or entirely absent from some Cuban clinics.
   
4. Medical Information: Though information materials have been exempt from the U.S. trade embargo since 1 988, the AAWH study concludes that in practice very little such information goes into Cuba or comes out of the island due to travel restrictions, currency regulations and shipping difficulties. Scientists and citizens of both countries suffer as a result. Paradoxically, the embargo harms some U.S. citizens by denying them access to the latest advances in Cuban medical research, including such products as Meningitis B vaccine, cheaply produced interferon and streptokinase, and an AIDS vaccine currently under-going clinical trials with human volunteers.
   

Finally, the AAWH wishes to emphasize the stringent nature of the U.S. trade embargo against Cuba. Few other embargoes in recent history - including those targeting Iran, Libya, South Africa, Southern Rhodesia, Chile or Iraq - have included an outright ban on the sale of food. Few other embargoes have so restricted medical commerce as to deny the availability of life-saving medicines to ordinary citizens. Such an embargo appears to violate the most basic international charters and conventions governing human rights, including the United Nations charter, the charter of the Organization of American States, and the articles of the Geneva Convention governing the treatment of civilians during wartime.

American Association for World Health
1825 K Street, NW, Suite 1208
Washington, DC 20006
Tel. [phone] / FAX [phone]

http://www.cubasolidarity.net/aawh.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We'll have to take it for granted you are unaware of the extra-territorial reach of the Helms-Burton Act, impeding Cuban trade with Mexico, Canada, and European countries.

[TeddyBear77]

46. Look

I think that the ban should be lifted. I see no reason for the ban, and I also disagree with the ban on Cuba to travel. Please don't misunderstand me.

I am no fan of the rich pigs in Miami who used Elian as their political cool. I agreed that Elian should be with his father, his closest relative, wherever that is.

But to suggest that Cuba respects private property rights, respects individual rights, and treats its people fairly is to deny the truth.

[Say_What]

49. Hellllooo, what kinda koolaid you drinkin' there, pal.

40+ years of an embargo and many other laws (Helms-Burton, etc) designed to strangle the Cuban economy to the point where the general population will overthrow their government and you say that it's "due to inefficiencies in their economic system."

Now *that's* MiamiGusano-logic! You sound like you've been listening to too much Radio Mambi.

I'm sure again this October for the 14th year in a row the United Nations General Assembly will overwhelmingly approve a resolution calling for an end to the 40-year-old embargo and its draconian laws that try to make other countries isolate the island as well. Last year it passed 179-4.

[Mika]

50. Look at how inefficient their health care and ed systems are. LOL

Learn From Cuba

It {Cuba} has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

[Say_What]

51. 2005 stats from the CIA about Cuba and the US

Not bad for a country with "failed economic policies" ;-)

Cuba:

Infant mortality: 6.3 deaths/1,000 live births
Life expectancy: 77.23 years
Literacy: 97%
AIDS prevalence: 0.1% (2003 est.)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html#People

As compared to the USSA:

Infant mortality: 6.5 deaths/1,000 live births
Life expectancy: 77.71 years
Literacy: 97%
AIDS prevalence: 0.6% (2003 est.)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People

[Judi Lynn]

44. Interesting how immigrants from Cuba (to the right-wing sensibility)

are "refugees" and immigrants from Mexico are criminals.

Lázaro Muñero, the ex-con boyfriend of Elián's mother, Elizabet, "fled" to Miami, lived with relatives, then re-"fled" to Cuba and picked up a boatload of passengers and re-re-"fled" before he sank altogether.

[Mika]

52. Excellent summary of Lázaro Muñero, Judi Lynn

:thumbsup:

The two other survivors of the fatal boat trip that killed Elian's mother said that Lázaro kicked the failed outboard motor so hard that he broke the transom (the back end of the boat that the motor is clamped to) right off of the boat. Water flooded in and sank the boat in seconds. No one had a life vest, including the 6 year old Elian.

BTW, those other two survivors, the Miami Herald reported after interviewing them, want to return to Cuba to live because their quality of life sucks in Miami compared to Cuba (their minimum wage jobs don't pay enough for them to afford transportation, food, decent housing, & health care in Miami - unlike their lives in Cuba).

[Judi Lynn]

59. So THAT'S what sank them! Damn. Had he had more self-control

there never would have been an "Elián" free-for-all going on here for months and months. We would have missed the side-show as U.S. Congressmen made even more pathetic asses of themselves trying to grandstand for the most retarded right-wingers among us.

I've heard about those two, Mika. I think it makes one wonder why the Herald doesn't do periodic updates on how they're getting along now, don't you? You can be sure if there was anything there to use for propaganda purposes, to show how wild these two are about their new homeland, we would have heard all about it long ago.

I read that they got jobs from some CANF businessmen types, something like a car dealership, for the man, and that they were shocked that their very basic apartment cost them so much they had almost nothing left on which to live, just as you said.

He used to be a chef in Cuba, and has been quoted saying where he used to live he had marble floors, and a lot of space, and was a far nicer home. He sounded unpleasantly surprised. (No streets of gold! He probably realized too late the stories the "exiles" spouted about how well everyone's doing here, on their trips to Cuba, were slight exaggerations.)

I heard they were hoping they could save some money to buy a few gifts to take with them when they got a chance to visit their relatives some day. Since _Bush has all but forbidden Cuban "exiles" any travel beyond once every three years, they can forget about seeing their relatives any time soon, anyway.

To Arianne and Nivaldo, lotsa luck.

[Judi Lynn]

9. Apparently we're supposed to forget migration in the Caribbean

as in Dominicans trying to get to Puerto Rico, and Haitians who have migrated to Cuba, and Haitians who die in great numbers trying to get to the United States, over a 700 mile trip in small boats.

Apparently we're supposed to forget that people from South and Central American come up through Mexico to cross the border, and that Mexicans die in huge numbers trying to get to the very country which, through various trade devices, like NAFTA, destroyed their only sources of income in farming corn, sugar, and coffee.

The newest Mexican-American war began in 1994 and is still going on. It's not an official war between the United States of Mexico and the United States of America. Rather, it's a war being between several dozen United States Congressmen and the poorest of poor Mexican laborers. Or more specifically, Congressmen Hunter, Rohrabacher, Tancredo, and Deal vs. hapless Mexican men, women, and children trying to make it over the border without dying.

The official death tally in this unending war is around one a day --- 4,000 dead in ten years. The unofficial tally is probably closer to 25,000. Or as one coroner, working out of Yuma, stated in Hard Line, if the Mexicans who had died in the desert all rose up today, their sheer numbers would beat the population of New York City.

Each year, hundreds from Mexico City, Sinaloa, Oaxaca, Vera Cruz and Chiapas expire in the border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California. Years ago, mothers, fathers, and children went easily back and forth through San Diego, Yuma, Ciudad Juárez, Brownsville. But since the declaration of war --- called, with a certain bitter irony, "Operation Gatekeeper" --- Mexicans have been driven to take on the mountains outside of San Diego, and on into the deserts of eastern California and Arizona.
Here they die, not like flies, but like beasts of burden: freezing to death in the mountains at night, in the snow and the cold; sometimes drowning in the deep irrigation canals of Southeaster California. Or, literally, cooked to death in the summer Sonoran desert, temperatures raging above 120°.

What do these soldiers of poverty look like after they have succumbed? According to Hard Line,

Their skin had been burned to a furious, stop-sign red by the sun. The extreme loss of body moisture had peeled back their lips, giving them a sickly grin, and left darkened pits where they eyes should have been. All Dave Phagan could think of was documentary films about the survivors of the Holocaust. These men had the same sunken look, "like skin draped over a skeleton."
(snip/...)

http://www.ralphmag.org/DH/hard-line.html



Sunday School class in Methodist church.
Santa Clara, Cuba, 1992.
photo by Paul Jeffrey

Item #92-56-293



Machateros in Santa Clara Cuba in 1899.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

..........What most interested me, when I traveled to the island this spring, was determining how concerned the Cubans themselves were about their future as Cubans, as a patriotic people invested emotionally and morally in their country and its destiny, even as an after-chill of the expired Cold War continues to numb and restrict their movement toward freedoms taken for granted throughout Western culture (of which Latin American culture is no small part). Pathetically, Cuba is still at war these days, mostly with Jesse Helms and a relentless battalion of its own hate-inspired Miami relatives, but the ideological tide of the conflict has ebbed with history, stranding both sets of scarred antagonists on opposite shores of ego, paranoia, and passionate delusion.
Not surprisingly, whomever I spoke with -- tobacco workers and cab drivers and families at the beach, housewives and artists and hitchhikers -- readily expressed interest in preserving the revolution's trio of hard-earned accomplishments: the educational system that has endowed Cuba with the highest literacy rate in the world, a universal health care system internationally acknowledged for the expertise of its doctors and the ingenuity of its research and pharmacological entities, and social security programs that provide pensions, housing benefits, and food subsidies to most of the population. Indeed, any post-Castro, or post-revolutionary, government would be guilty of negligence, a careless disregard for the (re)established social standard of life, however modest, for the average Cuban, if it allowed the status quo in these areas of society to erode, as happened in the early '90s. Save education and health care and the roofs over our heads, people on the street seemed to be saying, and the rest can go, for all we care.
(snip/...)

http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jmvadi/Cuba_CLS482/Shacochis_change%20&%20culture.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How many people do you imagine would be trying the trip from Latin Amaerica and the Caribbean if the U.S. Government offered THEM instant legal status upon reaching U.S. dry land, with no one to chase them around, throw them in jail and deport them, and bestow food stamps, Section 8 taxpayer-funded housing, health care, financial assistance for education, instant work visa, etc., etc., etc.? This is available for EVERY Cuban upon reaching dry land, bar none. Mexicans stand a good chance of getting shot, if they are spotted by American vigilantes coming across, if they DO make it through the other death traps.

[Vladimir]

15. Holy shit, you are actually thinking

don't do that Judi, you're making me nervous!

:hi:

[Judi Lynn]

62. It wears me out, Vladimir, headaches, too!

Always have to rest several days afterwards. Life is hard. :hi:

I'll be fine! Really. I can take it.

[mom cat]

16. thanks.

[Judi Lynn]

31. Here's some migration which has been defeated,from a situation

_Bush created. These people are trying to flee from a living hell created by our government's determination to remove a duly elected President of Haiti:

Jamaica Repatriates 283 Haitian Migrants

(You note they are called simple "migrants," rather than "refugees," which is more truthful, since their island is awash in overwhelming, devastating violence)

Jamaica repatriates 283 Haitian migrants

By HOWARD CAMPBELL
Associated Press
Posted June 23 2005, 8:23 AM EDT


KINGSTON, Jamaica -- Jamaica on Wednesday repatriated 283 Haitian migrants whose requests for political asylum were denied, an official said.

A government-appointed immigration tribunal rejected their asylum requests, said Donovan Nelson, a spokesman for the National Security ministry. Another 26 Haitians whose asylum bids were denied were deported last week, he said.

The migrants were among more than 700 Haitians who have arrived in Jamaica since the bloody rebellion that ousted President Jean-Bertrand Aristide in February 2004.

About 500 arrived in rickety boats shortly after the rebellion, but half decided they didn't want to stay and were sent home. Another 217 Haitians arrived earlier this year.
(snip/...)

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/caribbean/sfl-623haitijamaica,0,5726193.story?coll=sfla-news-caribbean

[Bridget Burke]

17. Controversy is forbidden?

http://www.universes-in-universe.de/car/havanna/cabana/e_saav.htm

Lazaro Saavedra presented this piece at the 6th Biennial of Havana--back in 1997. It's location is "La Cabana"--an old fortress commanded by Che Guevara after the victory of the rebels. This particular chamber was used for executing secret police & others--but far fewer were executed than "exile" legends claim. I would not consider this work wholly complimentary to Castro, et al. However, most young Cubans criticize the status quo for not living up to the ideals of revolution--they want to return to the old days. The artists I have met, especially, realize that they received excellent art educations for free. And they come from families where this would have been impossible in the past.

(No, I haven't been to Cuba. But I've known people who have gone & I've met Cuban artists. This kind of artistic/cultural exchange is now less possible--due to crackdowns since Bush stole Florida.)

[Mika]

18. Wrong. Most Cubans lived in squalor before the 1959 revolution.

Now, things are much better.

Before the 1959 revolution

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care is forced on Cubans. Castro didn't give it to them. The Cuban people worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system. Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.


Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.



Viva Cuba!

[malaise]

37. The bottom line is that

the quality of life in Cuba is light years ahead of the rest of the hemisphere. The data is available. Democracy ain't all that.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tkmorris]

14. The value of money is VERY relative

In Cuba, this raise is significant. Not extravagant no, but significant.

[RawMaterials]

159. You have to think

what does that buy, in America because of inflation not very much.
Who knows in Cuba they might be doing OK with that money, esp if they don't need to pay for anything. I make good money, but after paying rent, phone, electric, and for a car their is not much left over.

[Judi Lynn]

10. I love it when someone decides he'll give DU'ers a view of Cuba

without realizing many people in this large group have BEEN there, for Chrissakes, and can spot a lie about Cuba a mile away.

Repeating propaganda and all right-wing "news" about Cuba really only works well within the right-wing: people too lazy to start doing research for themselves.

[freeplessinseattle]

11. Doesn't Cuba have a higher literacy rate than the US?

I swear I have read this a few places. Now that is something! Maybe bc they only get two tv channels.

[Judi Lynn]

12. DU'ers who have been to Cuba tell us they can get tv stations

from south Florida cities, from Mexico, other islands, etc., etc.

Cuba used to have a tv station you could get online and watch in the States, but I can't find it any longer. It was really interesting.

They block reception of the American "exile" staffed and programmed propaganda tv station, Radio Marti from Miami. It's crap. We pay around $30,000,000.00 for the Miami right-wing extremists to create programing to send back to the same island where they're not welcome.

I've heard people in Cuba can use antennas and pick up American stations easily.

Git yer photos of Cuba here! Thumbnails, click to enlarge:

http://extras.journalnow.com/cuba/index.htm

[tkmorris]

13. They do

Also a lower infant mortality rate, a higher rate of AIDS survivors, a life expectancy that I believe just passed ours, etc etc.

[ckramer]

20. Not only that

they are exporting doctors, people are enjoying free education and healthcare.

Cuba is truly a lighthouse among the cruel unchecked-capitalism world.

[Judi Lynn]

27. Cuba to Host UN Housing Forums

Cuba to Host UN Housing Forums

Havana, Jun 23 (Prensa Latina) Cuba will start national activities to support UN world campaigns for good urban government and housing security.

Cuba, which eliminated eviction and made efforts to guarantee people´s possession of houses, will host several UN international housing forums.

UN Human Settlement Program Managing Director Anna Tibaijuka will visit Havana on Saturday to open the program entitled "Improving the management of our cities and the environment we live in."

The official opening will be held on June 27, in the presence of Cuban People´s Power National Assembly President Ricardo Alarcon, and several UN officials.
(snip)

National Housing Institute Vice President Noelys Borrero praised the participation of top UN officials in the Cuban campaign.
Havana will also host the 5th World Meeting of Sustainable Cities and Local Agenda 21 Programs, sponsored by the UN and the Cuban government, with the participation of 200 delegates from 35 countries.
(snip/)

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7B125A266A-CCC3-4774-9F8D-75C023CF56DD%7D&language=EN

[geek tragedy]

28. Why is $24/year a news story? What next, a LBN thread about Castro

throwing some workers a pizza party?

[underthedome]

29. Wow! The dictator is so great, such a humanitarian! *nm

*nm

[Judi Lynn]

30. You're probably thinking of the U.S.-supported dictator, Fulgencio Batista

Here's a quick reference to his enduring charm:

A seat is opening up on the Florida Supreme Court, and Gov. Jeb Bush's selection is Raoul Cantero, the only finalist who is not a judge. But he does have certain ideological qualifications. Cantero is the grandson of Cuba's brutal former dictator, General Batista, and his father served granddad as an intelligence officer in Batista's notorious Bureau for Repression of Communist Activities--who through their legacy of political torture and murder, eventually did more to incite communist revolution than to repress it.
(snip/...)

http://www.ww4report.com/48.html#shadows6

[underthedome]

32. This thread has nothing to do with Florida's Supreme Court, nice derail

nm

[Judi Lynn]

33. The link pointed to the brutal dictator of Cuba

whose vicious, U.S.-supported, as the snip pointed out, TRIGGERED the revolution and the present government which followed.

It appears consciousness is not an easy accomplishment for you.

[Judi Lynn]

34. Maybe this very simple description of the brutal dictator of Cuba

will be easier to grasp:

FULGENCIO BATISTA
President of Cuba

Cuban Army Sergeant Fulgencio Batista first seized power in a 1932 coup. He was President
Roosevelt's handpicked dictator to counteract leftists who had overthrown strongman Cerardo
Machado. Batista ruled or several years, then left for Miami, returning in 1952 just in time for
another coup, against elected president Carlos Prio Socorras. His new regime was quickly
recognized by President Eisenhower. Under Batista, U.S. interests flourished and little was said
about democracy. With the loyal support of Batista, Mafioso boss Meyer Lansky developed
Havana into an international drug port. Cabinet offices were bought and sold and military officials
made huge sums on smuggling and vice rackets. Havana became a fashionable hot spot where
America's rich and famous drank and gambled with mobsters. As the gap between the rich and
poor grew wider, the poor grew impatient. In 1953, Fidel Castro led an armed group of rebels in a
failed uprising on the Moncada army barracks. Castro temporarily fled the country and Batista
struck back with a vengeance. Freedom of speech was curtailed and subversive teachers, lawyers
and public officials were fired from their jobs. Death squads tortured and killed thousands of
"communists". Batista was assisted in his crackdown by Lansky and other members of organized
crime who believed Castro would jeopardize their gambling and drug trade. Despite this, Batista
remained a friend to Eisenhower and the US until he was finally overthrown by Castro in 1959.
(snip)

http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/dictators.htm#batista



Ful-firking-gencio Batista

[Judi Lynn]

35. So where's that Freep-fest?

Woo hoooo!

DU'ers GOT the facts here. All a freep can bring is his ignorance.

[TeddyBear77]

38. So tell me

Ms. Lynn,

How do you feel about the treatment of gays and lesbians in Cuba today?

Quote from Wikipedia.com:

"Homosexuals are not permitted to join the Communist Party, because being gay is assumed to be contrary to communist ethics. Homosexuality can have an adverse impact on a person's professional career in a society where all senior appointments depend on membership in the country's sole legal party. Cuba tolerates neither lesbian nor gay newspapers, nor LGBT organisations. The Cuban Association of Gays and Lesbians, formed in 1994, was suppressed in 1997 and its members were arrested. Being gay is illegal if it causes a "public offence"; this vague law alas led to the arrest of men who are effeminate."

Yep, Cuba sure sounds like a very progressive country to me. Meanwhile, in our "fundamentalist Christian" country, gays and lesbians take for granted freedoms that the Cuban GLBT community can only dream about.

That's just one example of what I believe to be flawed thinking on your part.

As someone else said, you don't see boats going from the US to Cuba, except when it is wealthy Americans visiting the nicer parts of the Islands.

[Judi Lynn]

40. You need to spend more time reading.

Americans don't go on cruises to Cuba, or were you unaware of the total travel ban the _Bush administration has placed on Americans?

Are you professing Wikipedia to be infallible? Being gay is most certainly NOT illegal in Cuba, from everything I've heard. I think you've been talking to too many people at Free Republic. They spend an inordinate amount of time trying to investigate just how many gays are getting by with things in Latin America:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Skip to comments.

‘INCREASE OF SIN’ : Brazil's homosexual parade = 2 million
RightConservative.com ^ | 05-30-05 | J. Grant Swank, Jr.


Posted on 05/30/2005 7:28:30 PM PDT by RightConservative


Bible believers make daily research of the Scripture’s prophetic passages, attempting to decipher signs of the End Times.

Therefore, when the Gay Pride parade numbering 2 million broke loose in Sao Paulo, Brazil, Christian students of the divine revelation could not help but recall Jesus’ prediction that there would be an "increase of sin" prior to His Second Advent.

Of course, "increase of sin" encompasses a huge scope of wickedness expected to blanket the planet prior to the return of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. However, the global display of practicing homosexual lifestyle as legitimate both by secularists and some religionists is alarming. It’s also right "up there" when it comes to the "increase of sin."

Jesus warned in such key passages as Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 that there would be exceptionally obvious signals trumpeting the nearness of His return to His turf — the Earth. It is the Second Person of the Trinity who created the Earth, maintains it and will eventually rule upon it, thus toppling the "prince of the air" — Beelzebub.
(snip)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1413469/posts

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Buenos Aires: South America's New Gay Mecca
Reuters ^ | Mar 7,2004 | Louise Egan


Posted on 03/22/2005 4:26:33 PM PST by Odyssey-x


BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (Reuters) - Gay tango classes and same-sex unions may not be mentioned in every guidebook, but such attractions are turning Buenos Aires into a new South American mecca for gay travelers.

....


(snip/...)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1368347/posts

More amazing displays of truth seeking:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=south%20america

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Cuban revolution's record on homosexuals' rights has been the subject of disinformation and misinformation for decades. Previous efforts by Cuba's enemies to make use of the government's 1960s and '70s deficiencies in this area were crowned by "Improper Conduct," Néstor Almendros' 1984 "documentary," which is laden with fabrications, distortions and half-truths.

But the campaign began to founder in the face of significant changes in Cuba. This evolution is symbolized in Tomás Gutiérrez Alea's landmark Cuban film, "Strawberry and Chocolate" (released in the U.S. in 1994), which skewered dogmatic features of the Cuban Communist Party and attacked anti-gay prejudices.

Still, back comes "Before Night Falls" as the slick, bionic offspring of "Improper Conduct" -- an attempt to revive the anti-Cuba crusade of its discredited forebearer. No surprise here. For while ultra-right ideologues simply deny the revolution's irrefutable gains, shrewder opponents of the Cuban government have long targeted its policies regarding gays as an opening for insidious attack. This serves Washington's central campaign against Cuba -- the government's alleged violation of "human rights"-- a campaign which began virtually with the victory of the revolution and has continued without pause ever since.

The extension of Cuban gay rights over the past decade and a half -- and the cessation of the most onerous policies befalling homosexuals another fifteen years earlier -- is a corollary to the expansion of working peoples' rights there. More and more taboos have crumbled under the impact of ever-widening debate and discussion over economic, political, and cultural questions.
(snip/...)

http://www.blythe.org/arenas-e2.html

[TeddyBear77]

45. Heh

Lmao.

1) I never said anything about cruises.

2) Plenty of Americans go to Cuba through Canada. I know many people who have done this.

[Judi Lynn]

47. O.K. See ya later. Got to spend the evening elsewhere. n/t

[TeddyBear77]

48. adios

nt

[Mika]

42. Completely bogus info

I personally know that there are many gay Cubans in the communist party.

The gusano/antiCuba factions conveniently interpret anti prostitution laws as being anti gay (even though the ardently anti Castro Miamicubano exile factions are virulently homophobic, as exemplified in the numerous votes to restrict gay rights in the City of Miami) . FYI, all prostitution is illegal in Cuba, including gay prostitution.

Granted, there is homophobia in Cuba just as there is in almost every country including the USA, and, unfortunately, it leads to some unjust actions.

Having been to Cuba many times I have seen that gay Cubans are no more castigated than anywhere else. As a matter of fact I posted a thread here on DU about a year ago on the first officially recognized gay marriage in Cuba. Now there have been many more.

One simply can't believe the anti Cuba propaganda that flourishes with the nurture of US/Cuban exile funding. One has to go there to see for oneself.
That is just why the US government has criminalized American travel to the island.. one might see the truth.

[Jade Fox]

53. A gay friend went to Cuba and loved it....

He met gays there as well who felt happy with their country. I'd give more
info, but I have forgotten the details and hesitate to try.

[Judi Lynn]

55. Thanks for adding your comments, Jade Fox.

As you know, by keeping almost all Americans out of Cuba, the American right-wingnuts who hope to control Cuba soon can say almost anything they want about the place, and getting the truth out where people can know about it is far harder!

If you learn anything more about this, and have the time, please let us Cuban-watching DU'ers know about it on the Cuba threads ahead.

[Jade Fox]

57. It's long been a dream of mine...

to visit Cuba. I'd love to see it first hand.

DU meet-up in Cuba? :)

[K-W]

54. Simply speaking to your argument

comparing the rights of one group of people is not a valid way to compare countries, for instance compare the freedom granted to blacks under slavery in the US republic compared to the freedoms granted blacks in monarchies without slavery. One could not from that conclude that The monarchies were more progressive forms of government than the republic that unfortunately had slavery.

And comparing the US and Cuba is rediculous. Anyone who expects Cuba to be like the US is confused. You shouldnt compare countries the way you are really, because every country is extremely unique, but if you do, compare Cuba to other Carribean and central/south american countries.

[Judi Lynn]

56. Good point. It needed to be pointed out.

If we were dealing with a lot of bright folks, it wouldn't be necessary, would it?

Right-wingers simply swallow the propaganda, and it never occurs to them they need to think things over. Sad.

[mitchum]

58. How's the weather in Miami today?

Go to hell

[blondie333]

60. So why haven't we invaded Cuba?

and spread democracy to a country run by a brutal dictator who has no regard for human rights.

His people live rent free, have free health care, education, reduced rate utilities and transportation. So they owe the government their undying loyalty.

The premise of the embargo was to destroy the economy, make the dictator weak and allow the people to overthrow the government. Didn't they try that a couple of decades ago going to so far as to believe that the American government would back them in the uprising. We all know how that turned out.


They've abandoned the fight. It's easier to float across that 90 mile stretch, take advantage of all this country has to offer, occasionally complain about conditions on the homeland and drive those SUVs to work everyday. Yep, life is good.

[Mika]

61. I'm not quite sure of what you're implying

:hi:

They've abandoned the fight. It's easier to float across that 90 mile stretch, take advantage of all this country has to offer...

Abandon what fight? The fight to recorporatize their infrastructure, re: pre '59 revolution?

Yep, life is good.

The City of Miami is one of the poorest cities in the USA. Life here ain't so good for the poor. (see posts #52 & #59 for an example)




Havana skyline

[blondie333]

63. "I'm not quite sure of what you're implying"

I hope I can explain myself better than I did in the prior post. This area survives on touristry which equates to the residents paying a higher price for gas, food and entertainment. Granted there are areas that are blighted, low and middle class sections and, of course, the mega rich who can afford to live the good life.

Those who make the journey here want to rejoin their families who left many years ago. They set their foot on dry land and they're here to make the most out of the freedoms this country offers. If that means they have to start at the bottom, so be it. Many immigrants started at the bottom. I know my ancestors did when they came to this country.

The point was if the embargo was to weaken the country in order to the people to overtake the government, it's not working. They're rather come to this country and wait until such time as an easier solution presents itself so they can return to the homeland.

[PermanentRevolution]

64. Mika and/or Judi

You two seem to be the resident experts on the Cuban subject, so maybe you can help. I've been in Miami a few years now (well, the Gables, anyway,) so I'm well aware of the political dominance the exile community holds. To hear them talk, the only people left in Cuba that support Castro are his armed thugs, and everyone else there is just too scared to speak out or leave. I was wondering if you had any statistics on how much of the population has left Cuba. Just how big a portion of the population is the exile crowd? 25%? 15%? 5%? Less? More? In short, are they a significant part of the Cuban population, or just a small fringe?

I want to know how much of the exile talk is crap (I suspect a lot of it is, but I've never been to Cuba to see for myself...)

[Judi Lynn]

66. Mika is definitely the one who knows about Cuba, PermanentRevolution

I only started trying to find out more during the Elián hostage-keeping episode which lasted so long in Miami. I had never paid any attention to Cuba earlier, as I had only heard propaganda and thought I knew everything!

When I learned Elián's gnarly old great-uncle, Lázaro, had made trips to Cuba for vacations I instantly knew I had been duped about Cuba. Why would someone who had been living in mortal terror of his government even dream of actually showing up right back in the same place he had "fled?" Wouldn't he be afraid of being tossed into prison? So that's when I started keeping my ears and eyes open.

Mika will undoubtedly have something accurate to tell you if he sees your post.

In the meantime, here's an article which was written in 2000, and contains information no doubt begrudgingly admitted by our own CIA, which, as you know, has been behind innumerable actions against Cuba since the 1950's:

CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER

NEW YORK, April 12 <2000> — Cuban-American exile leaders — and many Republicans in Congress — believe that no Cuban, including Juan Miguel Gonzalez, could withstand the blandishments of a suburban American lifestyle, that he and all other Cubans would gladly trade their “miserable” lives in Cuba for the prosperity of the United States — if only given the chance. Witness House Minority Leader Dick Armey’s invitation to Gonzalez, offering him a tour of a local supermarket. But U.S. intelligence suggests otherwise.

THE CIA has long believed that while 1 million to 3 million Cubans would leave the island if they had the opportunity, the rest of the nation’s 11 million people would stay behind.

While an extraordinarily high number, there are still 8 million to 10 million Cubans happy to remain on the island.
(snip)

The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.

U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope.

More important, Cuban media and Cuban culture long ago raised the banner of nationalism above that of Marxism. The intelligence community says the battle over Elian has presented Castro with a “unique opportunity” to enhance that nationalism.

There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials.
(snip/...)

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.html

[Mika]

68. Here's some stats

:hi:

P R, I live in the Gables also.

Here's an article I found from The Hurricane Online (FYI, UofM is the home of "Casa Bacardi" where the plotting for a "transition" of Cuba takes place for when Castro dies. Its very similar to the plan the US has for Iraq - the complete corporatization of the entire Cuban infrastructure. It is funded by anti Cuba terra supporting Bacardi.)
http://www.thehurricaneonline.com/media/paper479/news/2005/02/18/News/Historic.Periodicals.Chronicle.Lives.Of.Cuban.Exiles-869401.shtml

CUBANS IN AMERICA
Cubans in the U.S. since 1959

- Since Fidel Castro came to power in 1959, nearly half a million Cubans have come to the U.S.

- Miami is home to about 50 percent of the Cuban American population. New York is home to about 20 percent of
the population.

- Florida, Texas, New York, California, Illinois
and New Jersey are the six states with the
largest Cuban populations.

- Cubans are the third largest Spanish- speaking minority in the U.S.

source: www.Latinamericanstudies.org

So, about 250,000 Cuban immigrants reside in the City of Miami. Miami-Dade county has a pop of over 2.7 million, the City of Miami's pop is about 370,000.

Miami demographics
http://rumler.com/miami/



Here's another good read about Miami-Dade,


Born in U.S.A.? Not in Miami

In Miami-Dade County, more than half
the residents were born in another country.
That's the highest rate for any county in
the country.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/09/03/State/Born_in_USA_Not_in_Mi.shtml


______________________


click the pic to find out why

[Say_What]

69. Here's a start...

Maybe this pbs article can answer some of those questions. See the section Four Waves.

Some links where you can find out about el exilie and the very lucrative anti-Cuba industry in Miami.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

History of Cuba, a great website maintained by someone who was born in Cuba and maintains the site out of love and not any political agenda.

http://www.historyofcuba.com/cuba.htm

Progeso Weekly--Francisco Aruca's website that keeps track of the RW wackos in Miami and elsewhere. For anyone interested in Cuba, this is a must read. You can also listen to his radio program http://www.progresoweekly.com/index.php?progreso=listen&otherweek=1119762000

http://www.progresoweekly.com/

The book Cuba Confidential : Love and Vengeance in Miami and Havana by Ann Louise Bardach. Excellent background on exile history and the US government role in trying to overthrow the Cuban government both Dem and Repuke administrations--the only exception was Jimmy Carter who wanted to normalize relations with the island.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385720521/ref=pd_sxp_f/002-4616325-4731211?v=glance&s=books

Bardach's excellent interview with terrorist Luis Posada-Carriles--now being protected by the Bushistas--in 1998 where he admitted he was a terrorist.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/144.html

Last, but by no means least, CIP Online of which Cuba expert and former diplomat to Cuba, Wayne Smith, is a Senior Fellow. His editorials often appear in the South Florida papers.

[Mika]

71. Great essential links, Say_What

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Thanks.

[Say_What]

72. Great photo of the anti-terror march down the Malacon....

included with a great timeline about Posada at CIP Online.

http://ciponline.org/cuba/cubaandterrorism/Posada.htm

[PermanentRevolution]

82. Thanks to both of you

Got some reading to do...

[Judi Lynn]

65. US Academics Call to Support Cuba

Havana, June 26 / 17:57 UTC

US Academics Call to Support Cuba

Havana, Jun 26 (Prensa Latina) A group of US philosophers and sociologists has issued a statement at the end of a five-day meeting here deploring the Bush Administration hard-line policy against Cuba.

The document also demands the extradition to Venezuela of terrorist of Cuban origin Luis Posada Carriles, who masterminded the 1976 mid-air bombing of a Cuban commercial plane killing all 73 people on board.

The notorious terrorist, currently detained in the US just for violating immigration laws, is also the confessed organizer of bomb attacks against Cuban tourist facilities in 1997 and 1998. In one of the sabotages an Italian businessman got killed.

The academics also urged to lift the over-four-decade blockade of Cuba and to overrule travel restrictions imposed on US and Cuban-American citizens.

Another demand is the release of the Cuban Five jailed in US for collecting information on extremist Cuban-American groupings in south Florida with a beefy dossier of anti-Cuba terrorist activities.
(snip/...)

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7BD735540E-3138-4DD5-8FCD-05D792C09B40%7D&language=EN

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Probably an accident news of our own citizens attending an important meeting in Cuba didn't get published here.... as always.

[Placebo]

73. Castro must go. It's long overdue.

FREE. CUBA. NOW.

[Mika]

75. Where?

Castro must go where?

Like it or not, the fact is that most Cubans in Cuba revere Mr Castro.

He drives around in an open jeep with no armed guards.

He speaks at rallies before millions with no bullet proof glass or vest.

He was never a chickenshit coke snortin' frat boy who skipped out on serving his fellow countrymen/women. He personally led many of the charges in the '59 revolution that loosed the US shackles on Cuba as well as led the defense against the US invasion of their homeland.

He is a living revolutionary war hero to Cubans in Cuba.

[Placebo]

78. Well, it's safe to drive around so openly...

when your government controls all the information people can receive, there's no freedom of expression, and you've pumped your nation with so much propaganda for decades they can't even think straight anymore.

You really think absolute rule is better than democracy? Fine. Then keep loving that evil bastard Castro.

[Mika]

79. No I don't..

..Neither do Cubans in Cuba

Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has been elected to that position since 1976, the year that the Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[IndianaGreen]

81. I believe you are describing the United States of America..

when your government controls all the information people can receive, there's no freedom of expression, and you've pumped your nation with so much propaganda for decades they can't even think straight anymore.


Doesn't this sound like Bush's America? The land of the "Free Speech" zones! The land of the corporate media telling us everything about Jacko and a missing blonde coed in Aruba while ignoring the mess that Bush got us into.

[Say_What]

89. "so much propaganda for decades they can't even think straight anymore"

Describes the USSA to a T. Consequently, we have a nation of

[Mika]

91. If Americans want to dispel the propaganda - end the travel sanctions.

Hmmm, there must be some reason that the US government wants to keep Americans from seeing Cuba for themselves (in the dark), and controlling all of the information that Americans get about Cuba for decades.

Hmmm, maybe its because that what most Americans "know" about Cuba (from the decades of propaganda that has been pumped into them) isn't true.


In my case, that is just what was discovered by going to Cuba.




Another look at "crumbling" Havana

[Say_What]

94. Right!! Until little Elian graced our hostile shores, Cuba was invisible

even today most 'muriKans will say. Cuba? Where's that? They say the same about LatAm. I read recently that we only get about 10% international news. The majority of *news* is infotainment crap--Jacko, the runaway bride, and a missing muriKan in Aruba pass as *news*.

Nice pics!!

"Cuba Libre," A Poem by Ernest H. Crosby

When we sailed from Tampa Bay,
"Cuba Libre!"
And our ships got under weigh,
"Cuba Libre!"
As we floated down the tide,
Crowding to the steamer's side,
You remember how we cried,
"Cuba Libre!"

When we spied the island shore,
"Cuba Libre!"
Then we shouted loud once more,
"Cuba Libre!"
As we sank Cervera's ships
Where the southern sea wall dips,
What again was on our lips?
"Cuba Libre!"

These are foreign word, you know-
"Cuba Libre!"
That we used so long ago;
"Cuba Libre!"
And in all the time between
Such a lot of things we've seen,
We've forgotten what they mean
"Cuba Libre!"

Let us ask the President,
"Cuba Libre!"
What that bit of Spanish meant,
"Cuba Libre!"
Ask McKinley, Root and Hay
What on earth we meant to say,
When we shouted night and day
"Cuba Libre!"

But alas! They will not speak
"Cuba Libre!"
For their memories are weak,
"Cuba Libre!"
If you have a lexicon,
Borrowed from a Spanish don,
Send it down to Washington,
"Cuba Libre!"

In 1902, Ernest H. Crosby wrote "Captain Jinks, Hero," a novel satirizing the war fever and the betrayal of the Cubans and Filipinos by the government.

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/scaw/scaw5b.htm

[Say_What]

76. Spoken like a true GUSANO....

If the Cubans wanted to be *freed* they'd do it themselves--their history proves that.

[Placebo]

77. Really?

I think history would disagree with you.

[Say_What]

88. Then you know sh*t about Cuban history

get yourself an education....

No doubt your idea of *freedom* for the island is to send them back to the days of United Fruit when the US supported one dictator after another so that:

By the late 1950’s, American capital control:
90% of Cuba’s mines
80% of its public utilities
50% of its railways
40% of its sugar production
25% of its bank deposits in the late 1950s:

It is estimated that by the end of 1958, 11,500 Cuban women earn their living as prostitutes.

Terrence Cannon writes:
"The U.S. did not send in the marines for one basic reason: it did not fear the Revolution. It was inconceivable to the U.S. policy makers that a revolution in Cuba could turn out badly for them. After all, U.S. companies owned the country."

Oh yeah, that's *freedom* :sarcasm:

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/time/timetbl3b.htm

[bpilgrim]

92. your post on Cuba match your name to a T

big claims on the outside - NOTHING on the inside

peace

[IndianaGreen]

80. Cuba is free now, ever since January 1, 1959

Perhaps your interpretation of freedom and democracy are the same as Bush's. Perhaps freedom is the freedom of American corporations to steal the natural resources of a nation, displacing and murdering any peasant that stands in the way. Perhaps democracy is the way the rich living in Havana exploited the peasants living on the lands they owned.

Perhaps your concept of freedom is that Cubans should give up their free health care in favor of an American style HMO. Who knows, who cares?

[Beel2112]

84. Define "free"...

While I beleive the embargo should be lifted and that Cuba isn't the root of all evil that some try to paint it as, it isn't the paradise that some here would like you to believe either. Let's take a look at their constitution:

"ARTICLE 62. None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised contrary to what is established in the Constitution and by law, or contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism. Violations of this principle can be punished by law."
http://www.parlamentocubano.cu/espanol/const.ingles

That's right--their own constitution forbids you to speak out against the government. How's that for freedom?

And to crib from my buddy (who spent a few weeks in Cuba and loved the place):

"From Human Rights Watch:
“The Cuban government systematically denies its citizens basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, movement, and a fair trial. It restricts nearly all avenues of political dissent, and uses police warnings, surveillance, short term-detentions, house arrests, travel restrictions, criminal prosecutions, and politically-motivated dismissals from employment as methods of enforcing political conformity.”

Source: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/10/cuba10306.htm

“…State security agents began rounding up political dissidents, independent journalists, human rights advocates, independent librarians and others brave enough to challenge the Havana government’s monopoly on truth. The arrests heralded Cuba’s worst crackdown in decades.”

Source: http://hrw.org/editorials/2003/cuba043003.htm

“The denial of basic civil and political rights is written into Cuban law. A number of criminal law provisions grant the state extraordinary power to prosecute people who attempt to exercise basic rights to free expression, opinion, association, and assembly. The country’s courts also deny defendants internationally-recognized due process guarantees, including the right to a public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal.”

Source: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/27/cuba8500.htm

From Amnesty International:
“Amnesty International is concerned that Cuba continues to detain people for their political, religious or other conscientiously held beliefs.”

Source: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250022002?open&of=ENG-CUB

“Those who attempt to express views or organize meetings or form organizations that contradict government policy and/or the aims of the state are likely to be subjected to punitive measures such as imprisonment, loss of employment, harassment or intimidation.”

Source: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250022005

“According to the trial documents available, the evidence on which the March 2003 prosecutions were brought and the sentences confirmed included:

o publishing articles or giving interviews, in US-funded or other media, said to be critical of economic, social or human rights matters in Cuba;
o communicating with international human rights organisations”

Source: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250022005

These sources, from the world’s two best-known and respected human rights organizations, absolutely confirm what I have been saying all along. Cuba systematically denies its citizens basic civil liberties. Not only are civil liberties denied in law, any effort to exercise civil liberties is severely and summarily punished."


http://dianne.free.fr/index.php/256 (Source of this magnificent cut'n'paste job, some friends' left-wing blog.)

[Judi Lynn]

85. I'm on my way to my own evening, but will check this threads again

There are many people who have started watching the content of HRW, etc. HRW has direct ties to American governent organizations, which some of us have already realized. They will be expected to parrot American attitudes.

(By the way, why don't you post some references to findings these groups have made, when they broke down and did reports on the United States? You know there are tons, and tons of pages of reports. TONS.)

Who is behind Human Rights Watch?
Under President Clinton, Human Rights Watch was the most influential pro-intervention lobby: its 'anti-atrocity crusade' helped drive the wars in ex-Yugoslavia. Under Bush it lost influence to the neoconservatives, who have their own crusades, and it is unlikely to regain that influence during his second term. But the 'two interventionisms' are not so different anyway: Human Rights Watch is founded on belief in the superiority of American values. It has close links to the US foreign policy elite, and to other interventionist and expansionist lobbies.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No US citizen, and no US organisation, has any right to impose US values on Europe. No concentration camps or mass graves can justify that imposition. But Human Rights Watch finds it self-evident, that the United States may legitimately restructure any society, where a mass grave is found. That is a dangerous belief for a superpower: European colonialism shows how easily a 'civilising mission' produces its own atrocities. The Belgian 'civilising mission' in the Congo, at the time promoted as a noble and unselfish enterprise, killed half the population. Sooner or later, more people will die in crusades to prevent a new Holocaust, than died in the Holocaust itself. And American soldiers will continue to kill, torture and rape, in order to prevent killings, torture and rape.
For a century there has been a strong interventionist belief in the United States - although it competes with widespread isolationism. In recent years attitudes hardened: human-rights interventionism became a consensus among the 'foreign policy elite' even before September 11. Human Rights Watch itself is part of that elite, which includes government departments, foundations, NGO's and academics. It is certainly not an association of 'concerned private citizens'. HRW board members include present and past government employees, and overlapping directorates link it to the major foreign policy lobbies in the US. Cynically summarised, Human Rights Watch arose as a joint venture of George Soros and the State Department. Nevertheless, it represents some fundamental characteristics of US-American culture.
(snip/...)

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/HRW.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Time is a real problem. All that's missing here is time to get after this subject. There's a great deal to throw into the mix once people start looking into the principles guiding some of the decisions these organizations make.

By the way, Venezuelan right-wingers made sufficient death threats to Amnesty International in Vancouver to elicit a reversal of plans, and A-I withdrew "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" from its film festival. They simply caved in to political pressure from the Venezuelan ruling class.

I've got to go.

[Beel2112]

96. Interesting...

"By the way, why don't you post some references to findings these groups have made, when they broke down and did reports on the United States?"

Um, because this thread is about Cuba, not the US?

"You know there are tons, and tons of pages of reports. TONS."

I'm confused. You dismiss the reports on Cuba do to credibility problems but then ask for reports on the US from the very same organizations you just dismissed as unreliable? That makes no sense whatsoever. Are their reports on the US wrong too? Or just these ones about Cuba (which a Google search shows are corroborated by many other organizations)? Or, as I suspect, are you simply arbitrarily choosing to believe some of their reports and not others? :shrug:

[Mika]

87. Huh? Absolute nonsense

Article 62 simply says (in lawyer speak) that one must obey the law as set by the constitution and by law.

Just where does it say that one can't speak out?

It doesn't.

In fact, prior and following articles within the same constitution disabuse your false notion. Maybe you should take a look at the Cuban constitution.

ex;

ARTICLE 54. The rights to assembly, demonstration and association are exercised by workers, both manual and intellectual, peasants, women, students and other sectors of the working people, and they have the necessary means for this. The social and mass organizations have all the facilities they need to carry out those activities in which the members have full freedom of speech and opinion based on the unlimited right of initiative and criticism.

ARTICLE 63. Every citizen has the right to file complaints with and send petitions to the authorities and to be given the pertinent response or attention within a reasonable length of time, in keeping with the law.

The Cuban government has every right and a responsibility to do its primary job - to protect the Cuban people and the established system of government as determined by the citizens. Busting up groups that aid, receive aid from, and abet the declared enemy of Cuba (the US government) is the duty of law enforcement. Cuba has much domestic political diversity, including dissident anti socialist political factions. BUT, foreign funded political parties are not permitted by law (just as it is in the USA), especially those groups seeking to assist the US government's intent of overthrowing the system of government in Cuba (a socialist variant representative parliamentary system).

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ001.html

[Beel2112]

95. Um, no.

"Article 62 simply says (in lawyer speak) that one must obey the law as set by the constitution and by law."

Yeah, if you only read the beginning:

"None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised contrary to what is established in the Constitution and by law, ..."

However, if you finish reading it, you'll see this, which clearly indicates you can't really protest:

"{...or contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism."

In short, it's saying that those two other Articles you cited are null and void when it comes to critizing "the existence and objectives of the socialist state" and "the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism."

Let's cut out that first condition and write it out again:

"None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised ... contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism."

Ouch.

Edit:
Don't take my word for it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

While we're at it, let's look at some other wonderful things about Cuba:

There was thread on here not long ago about the national ID card here in the US which (rightfully) drew a lot of criticism. Guess what?

"From the age of sixteen (the legal voting age), every citizen must carry an Identity Card."

What about homosexuality? They're not allowed to join the communist party, a minor inconvenience given that that's the ONLY party. Do a Google search for "Cuban Association of Gays and Lesbians". Ditto for "Cuba human rights". (Both without the quotations.) It's not a pretty picture.

[Mika]

101. Go ahead and rewrite the rest of the Cuban constitution. LOL

I see, we're supposed to follow your rewrite but not the other aforementioned articles in their constitution. How convenient.



--- What about homosexuality? They're not allowed to join the communist party, a minor inconvenience given that that's the ONLY party. ---


Completely wrong. I know gay Cubans in the commie party. There are other domestic political parties in Cuba (I posted a partial list in a prior post).

The ID in question is required in order to vote. The right to vote is engendered at age 16.

Its a pity that Americans have been bombarded with so much anti Cuba propaganda for decades they can't even think straight anymore, worse yet their unfettered travel to Cuba has been criminalized by their own government in order to keep (a majority of) them in the dark.

[Beel2112]

103. I'm not rewriting anything...

I copy & pasted and removed the first of three conditions. You honestly believe that this means that open dissent is allowed:

"None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised ... contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism."

I'm not rewriting, I'm exercising proper English.

"I know gay Cubans in the commie party."

Openly gay? When were they allowed in? And do you have any actual names and proof of this claim?

"There are other domestic political parties in Cuba (I posted a partial list in a prior post)."

Yes, but they're not allowed to hold power, which means they're utterly worthless. How about you post a list of the opposition parties' members of parliament? (That'll be easier than it sounds, because it's a very short list. ;) )

From the CIA factbook:
"only party - Cuban Communist Party or PCC "
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html#Govt

"The ID in question is required in order to vote."

It's also required to be carried at all times, unless my friend, who is fluent in Spanish and spent three weeks in Cuba is lying to me when he said how often people he was talking to were asked for them by the police. Not only is my friend wrong, but so is practically every single human rights group that reports on Cuba. (See above.)

"Its a pity that Americans have been bombarded with so much anti Cuba propaganda for decades they can't even think straight anymore..."

No worse than the socialists who desperately cling to Cuba as their last hope, willing to ignore what the rest of the world knows to be true...

[Say_What]

118. "...the rest of the world knows to be true"

MiamiGusanos and RW wackos are not "the rest of the world".

[Mika]

143. "proper english" LOL.

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

__

No desperation on my part/ & not clinging to anything.

You see, I have been to Cuba many times since the mid '70s for long durations that included the entire '97-98 election season. I've seen Cuba's democratic system evolve over that time. It is fair, open, representative, and all voting is done with paper ballots that are openly counted.

You can say what you want based on second hand (mis)info from someone who spent a couple of weeks there, but I know quite a lot about Cuba and have maintained long and deep friendships with many Cubans, some commies but most are not. I have worked with Cuban Drs and teachers and marine biologists as well as cane cutters and farmers and fishermen.. a wide range of personal interaction with many, from my youth to my 40s. I communicate with my Cuban friends frequently via email and phone. I love them all dearly and wish only the best for them.

Your personal attacks and rewrites/distortions of the Cuban constitution and life in Cuba just don't hold up to personal experience by millions who have been to Cuba and seen the place for themselves.. tourists to professionals. Nor do the NED/USAID/Freedom House funded attacks and "reports" on Cuba.

Sadly, most Americans have to rely on such bought-and-paid-for disinfo because for some strange reason the US government has criminalized unfettered American travel to Cuba. My experiences IN Cuba has opened my eyes to the truth about Cuba which is quite contrary to the propaganda I used to believe when I was younger and uninformed/inexperienced.

My eyes have been opened. I wish more of our fellow Americans could go there and have their eyes opened also, and no longer be in the dark about a wonderful (albeit poor) place and people.


Viva Cuba!

[Beel2112]

154. Representative?????

"I've seen Cuba's democratic system evolve over that time. It is fair, open, resentative and all voting is done with paper ballots that are openly counted."

Really? Then enlighten us--who were the candidates on the ballot running in opposition to Castro? What percent of the vote did he get?

Actually, let me help you out: the answers are "No one" and "100% of the legislative vote". By amazing "coincidence", his younger brother was elected Vice President with--wait for it--yes, 100% of the legislative vote. Yeah, that was a quality election, and surely not an obvious sham. Guess how many of the 601 seats are held by members of the communist party? The PCC is so incredibly popular they hold all 601 of them!

"...fair open and representative..."

You must be the most gullible human being on the planet.

And FYI, anyone with a modicum of knowledge of statistics knows that personal experience is very rarely, if ever, meaningful. I'll put the overwhelming mountain of evidence against your personal experience any day.

[Mika]

155. Yep

Surely you could at least look at some of the links posted before posting your blather.

-Democracy in Cuba-
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html



I've personally seen Cuban nomination sessions where no communist party members were even nominated.

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ025.html



Why don't you post a link that proves your opinion that 100% of the membership of the elected assemblies are members of the communist party? The places you will find such "info" that confirms your opinion is from anti post revolution Cuba sites.

[Beel2112]

157. Your own source confirmed what I've been saying:

That only one party is allowed (your first link):

"The one-party system in Cuba is a legitimate response to the unrelenting assault of hostile, imperialistic aggression against the Cuban people and represents a closing of their ranks against this onslaught--they have a lot to lose. "

Legitimate oppression--that's neat.

"Why don't you post a link that proves your opinion that 100% of the membership of the elected assemblies "

I'm talking about the parliament, not "elected assemblies", whatever you take that to mean. And it's not opinion, it's fact:
http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact2002/fields/2101.html

"election results: percent of vote - PCC 94.39% {pleaes note that your source states that 94.45% of the vote when to the unified ticket, so the two would seem to be in agreement here...}; seats - PCC 601"

And before launching into your usual defense of "that's not credible", let's take a look at few other facts:

Freedom House gives them a 7 (the worst rating) for both civil liberties and political rights, a trend that has continued for at least 11 years:
http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2003/countryratings/cuba.htm

They got slammed here too (Polity IV Project, University of Maryland), ranking 123/140:
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-T/dem_dem_ins_rat&int=-1

And here are few choice cuts from the summary of the Human Rights Watch report on Cuba (1999):
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/

"Over the past forty years, Cuba has developed a highly effective machinery of repression. The denial of basic civil and political rights is written into Cuban law. In the name of legality, armed security forces, aided by state-controlled mass organizations, silence dissent with heavy prison terms, threats of prosecution, harassment, or exile. Cuba uses these tools to restrict severely the exercise of fundamental human rights of expression, association, and assembly. The conditions in Cuba's prisons are inhuman, and political prisoners suffer additional degrading treatment and torture. In recent years, Cuba has added new repressive laws and continued prosecuting nonviolent dissidents while shrugging off international appeals for reform and placating visiting dignitaries with occasional releases of political prisoners.
...
Cuban authorities continue to treat as criminal offenses nonviolent activities such as meeting to discuss the economy or elections, writing letters to the government, reporting on political or economic developments, speaking to international reporters, or advocating the release of political prisoners."

And last but not least--your own source:
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ014.html
"Why have no opposition candidates ever been elected? {promptly followed by more of the insane "it's legitimate oppression" type "logic" from your first link above.}"

So your own sources state that only one party is allowed, and tacitly admits that "no opposition candidate ever been elected". Good job--you just proved my point for me.

[Mika]

174. More Freedom House swill? LOL

Your sources are chock full of anti Cuba/Miamicuban exile swill.

What next, some Rev Moon sources? How about NewsMax?

:eyes:

_______

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

________


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

______


http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ016.html

* candidates are nominated not by any political party, but by the people themselves at open, public meetings or by their elected representatives who were themselves nominated in this way
* it costs nothing to run for even the highest political office in the land
* secret ballots are conducted at each step of the electoral process with the option, at both the provincial and national levels, of rejecting any or all candidates in general elections
* elected representatives (deputies) are accountable on an ongoing basis to their constituents and are subject to recall at any time

[Judi Lynn]

175. Ha! Freedom House takes our taxes, and then gives us back propaganda.

Nice work if you can get it!

This press release from USAID in May 2002 (http://usinfo.state.gov/), provides a glimpse of the money spent openly. Obviously covert figures are not revealed. Topping the list of grantees are Frank Calzon’s Washington DC based “Freedom House”, and “Center for a Free Cuba,” both of which function as propaganda mills for anti-Cuban rhetoric, by producing white papers, opinion pieces, and acting as press contacts ready with an anti-Cuban quip for whatever Cuban topic arises.
(snip)

http://www.nowaroncuba.org/Organization/Press/US_Ops_against_Cuba.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Checking out for the evening. Will look in again, if possible. This thread is droll at times, isn't it?



Frank Calzon, and Frank with his pal, _George.

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vladimir]

181. Wanting to leave and supporting the opposition are

two entirely different things... but I must admit, non-sequiturs seem to be your speciality.

[Beel2112]

183. The article still doesn't justify the statement

Point out to me ANYTHING in that news report that supports the claim Mika's source made that I highlighted.

I'm not playing this game of switching the subject everytime I catch you guys. I'll respond to your "non-sequitor" nonsense after you show me how on Earth they made the claim that that the opposition movement "has almost no support among the Cuban public." from the article.

[Mika]

184. Speaking of switching the subject..

.. back to the topic of the thread..


So, what do you think of Cuba's salary increases for Drs and educators in their national h-c and ed systems?

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm
It {Cuba} has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

-
..Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

-----------

Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

I guess that Cuba's Drs and educators are forced to exercise their professions in an outstanding fashion for all of their neighbors and countrymen/women.

So, I guess parents are forced to send their kids to good schools for a good education (and free - including higher ed) that their undemocratic government forces on them. Uniquely, Cubans didn't want good schools for their children, so Cubans continue to work hard against their gov to stop this.

I guess that families have a good health care system forced on them - one for their neighbors, children, parents, grandparents, and themselves - by their tyrannical socialist system. Uniquely, Cubans didn't want a good national h-c system for all, so Cubans continue to work hard against their gov to stop this.

I see. :eyes:

[Vladimir]

186. Its a non-sequitur, not a non-sequitor n/t

[Beel2112]

188. So in other words...

...you can't justify the bogus sophistry (BS) that is Mika's "credible" source.

"Point out to me ANYTHING in that news report that supports the claim Mika's source made that I highlighted.

I'm not playing this game of switching the subject everytime I catch you guys. I'll respond to your "non-sequitur" {corrected} nonsense after you show me how on Earth they made the claim that {corrected} the opposition movement "has almost no support among the Cuban public" {corrected} from the article."

[Vladimir]

190. Not really

I was just enjoying being a pedant.

[Judi Lynn]

182. Oh, you should have taken time to think it through.

I've got only time to post this, but I'll check back later.

The article I linked was written by -> -> Robert Windrem, as in:

Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER,

a man not inclined to hump a dictator..... (left wing, that is)

He discussed material gleaned from a CIA report. You can obviously expect the CIA, host of the ever popular Bay of Pigs Invasion, and decades of raids on Cuba, as well as malicious mischief against Cuban officials at various points throughout this hemisphere leading up to their unexpected trips into the great beyond, to bend the truth negatively against Cuba, to the point that anything which is NOT scalding venom is a delightful surprise.

Were you a deeper poster, you would have recognized this already.

[Beel2112]

185. You've missed the point.

Mika's source (which is why I'm a little confused that you, Judi, claimed that you linked to it. Unless you linked to the same article earlier and I've forgotten...) claimed that a news report entitled "CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland" backed up their claim. First of all, the report did no such thing. It talked about the mass exodus of people who fled and would like to flee Cuba despite the fact that they love their country. People wanting to flee their beloved homeland doesn't sound to me like "there's no support for the opposition in Cuba" when 9-27% would rather leave their homeland than stay. Maybe it's different in Cuba, but the whole "America is terrible, I'm moving to Canada" is usually the last resort for those who are disgusted by our government.

Second, for the third time now, I have caught you guys picking and choosing when to believe a source. You're now saying the CIA isn't to be trusted. That's not a good thing, considering that Mika's source just used the CIA's findings to make their point. Picking and choosing your facts on the evidentiary standard of "What agrees with my beliefs?" is irrational.

Do you outright dismiss HRW's reports on Guantanamo Bay (see below) like you did their ones on Cuba's deplorable human rights records?
http://hrw.org/doc/?t=usa_gitmo&document_limit=20,20

If so, why not? Bear in mind that while your attacks on their credibility lies in links to random "US interests", HRW's reports on Cuba are corroborated by many other very credible organizations such as the UN and Amnesty International:

The UN Commission for Human Rights
http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/FramePage/Cuba%20En?OpenDocument&Start=1&Count=15&Expand=2
The last report in that list includes these gems: "10. Although the authorities say that candidates were chosen by the people and that membership of the Communist Party was not an important factor for election, in reality the system established by the Electoral Law of 1992 does not genuinely make it possible for persons opposed to the Government and not looked on favourably by the authorities to compete freely. ... All in all, the electoral process is so tightly controlled that the final phase, i.e. the voting itself, could be dispensed without the final result being substantially affected." Mind you, this is the UN reporting this. It does help explain why so many people are willing to abandon their homeland though, doesn't it?
http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/TestFrame/e5cd0d891d0d6566c125661300495d69?Opendocument

Amnesty International
(See Post #84)

Until I see an answer to those two questions above, I'm not responding to any more of your nonsense either. My point is made: my sources are credible sources such as Human Rights organizations (HRW, AI, The UN), the FAS, non-partisan foreign affairs and economic articles, and the CIA World Fact Book, all of which corroborate each other. Your sources are pro-socialist webpages (including a blog; see Post #114), which have at times contradicted your own previous statements or proven mine.

I'll admit that in retrospect, you all were right about one thing: There is a huge credibility problem here.

[Beel2112]

189. Correction/Update

I wrote, "Second, for the third time now, I have caught you guys picking and choosing when to believe a source."

This however isn't entirely correct--there is a fourth occurrence of this contradictory behavior of citing sources you've dismissed as unreliable:

Post #51
"2005 stats from the CIA about Cuba and the US"

Say_What cited the CIA World Fact Book, the exact same source I used to show that the Communist Party is the ONLY party in Cuba (as confirmed by your own source). Fascinating, truly fascinating.

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Placebo]

86. Your avatar says it all.

Pretty much negates any talk from you about so-called "freedom."

[Vladimir]

93. Oooh, who's afraid of the big bad Marx? n/t

[IndianaGreen]

97. The choice is between socialism or barbarism

I choose socialism, a system that puts people first, ahead of profits. Barbarism we are getting plenty of from our own government!

It was the socialists that fought and died for such radical ideas such as the 40-hour workweek. The capitalism that you defend, would have you work longer hours for less pay, and no benefits. So before you bad-mouth Karl Marx, think about the barbaric system you are defending.

[Beel2112]

98. Marx & Bad Economics...

Here's an excellent breakdown of the fatal flaws of Marxism.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Marxism.html

"The funny thing is that communism does follow a twisted sort of logic. If you accept its underlying premises, some of its conclusions actually do make sense. However, you can't accept its underlying premises. Humans won't work as hard without self-interest to motivate them, as anyone familiar with the behaviour of our evolutionary ancestors will quickly realize. The collective self-interest of a nation of millions is much too remote and abstract to have the emotional immediacy necessary to strongly motivate most individuals. An economy of millions or hundreds of millions of people is not simple enough to predict and control from a central bureaucracy. People won't give up the traditional family structure, which has existed (either as monogamy or polygamy) in one form or another since the dawn of recorded history. And absolute power does corrupt absolutely, even in the hands of the benevolent Communist Party.
...
When viewed through the eyes of history, the 20th century will be remembered mostly for its startling rate of technological advancement, the evil of Hitler and Stalin, and the utter failure of communism. Neo-marxists expend a tremendous amount of effort to whitewash this failure, but they cannot deny the fact that no one has ever successfully implemented the philosophies of Karl Marx. Every attempt to implement marxism has turned into a disastrous dictatorship, in which the proletariat loved the communist lifestyle so much that they would risk their very lives to escape it."

[Bridget Burke]

99. Great website!

I'll be sure to check back when I start caring about "Star Wars vs. Star Trek"!

[Beel2112]

100. Wow, that totally refuted his claims!

:eyes:

Let me just remind you again:

"When viewed through the eyes of history, the 20th century will be remembered mostly for its startling rate of technological advancement, the evil of Hitler and Stalin, and the utter failure of communism. Neo-marxists expend a tremendous amount of effort to whitewash this failure, but they cannot deny the fact that no one has ever successfully implemented the philosophies of Karl Marx."

Over 100 years and not one success. At what point do you accept that while it has its good points (many of which have been incorporated into capitalist societies), it just doesn't work?

[Mika]

102. FYI, Cuba is socialist not Marxist.

No neo-Marxists defending Cuba.

[Say_What]

112. Interesting how your point was completely ignored....

can't imagine why ;-)

:bounce:

[Bridget Burke]

104. You're getting political analysis from a Star Wars/Star Trek site.

What does this mean in your own words? References to reputable sources are encouraged.

Cuba has its good & bad points. So does the US.

[Beel2112]

105. Yes, yes I am.

"References to reputable sources are encouraged. "

Yes, they are. That's why I cited two organizations that I have seen cited on DU more than once. That being said, credibility isn't everything; you can have zero credibility and still be right and conversely, be incredibily credible and be completely wrong. No one seems to want to touch the actual content...

You can see the author's bio here:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/

"Cuba has its good & bad points."

Yup, that's pretty much what I said in my first post in this thread.

"So does the US."

Why does the US keep coming up? Anything we do wrong in no way, shape, or form "negates" the oppression in Cuba.

[Say_What]

111. Heeelloooo, the guy's an ENGINEER

just another schmuck on the web stating his opinion. Keeeerist, is this the best you can do??

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Vladimir]

106. Except that they are full of shit

and I mean that. I don't mind intelligent critiques of Marxism, god knows we need them, but that stuff is below par. I recommend you work your way through a few bits of:

http://www.marxists.org/

which contains just about every important Marxist text ever written...

[Say_What]

107. WTF Star Wars vs Star Trek??? An exellent breakdon of Marxism???

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

yeah, that's a real credible site. :spank:

[Beel2112]

108. Just so we can be clear on this...

...not one of you has touched the actual material. I wonder why. :eyes:

Maybe one of you can explain why, after 100+ years, Marxism has yet to succeed? It couldn't possibly be because, well, it can't, could it? That despite his credibility, Marx was woefully wrong on many counts?

Again I ask, at what point do you finally accept what the rest of the world knows--that it's a failed theory?

[Vladimir]

109. In response to this stuff on human nature

why don't you read some of the stuff below, from an SPGB comrade:

"What most critics of human nature are actually referring to is human behaviour, behaviour exhibited in varying circumstances, and sometimes this reveals humans to be displaying behaviour that is aggressive or selfish.

For instance, if you go to Newcastle on a Saturday afternoon you’ll see thousands of people out shopping, strolling along quietly, minding their own business. Return ten hours later when the pubs and night clubs empty, when the same streets are full of drunks and you’ll see behaviour that is quite blatantly aggressive. This is not natural aggression, but aggression which is arising because the normal functioning of thousands of brains is being upset by an overdose of the chemical alcohol and other drugs.

Anti-social behaviour is also influenced by our social circumstances at any given time, i.e., when we are poor, depressed, lonely, afraid, angry or frustrated – sometimes a spontaneous overflow of powerful emotion arising from abnormal and unfamiliar circumstances

Socialists maintain that human behaviour is shaped in general by our surroundings, our circumstances, by the kind of system people are conditioned to live in – that it is not our consciousness that determines our social existence but our social existence which determines our consciousness. Nobody, for example, is born a racist or a patriot, a bigot, or with a belief in gods – this has to be learned. Nobody is born a murderer, a robber or a rapist, and our assumed greed for money is no more a function of the natural human thought process than were slavery or witch burning. For instance, Labour lost the Smethwick, Birmingham seat in the 1964 election to the Tories because of the racist hysteria the Tories had whipped up in the constituency and the false fears they had spread about immigration. Their candidate had as his election logo: “If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour.” "

http://arevolutionaryact.blogspot.com/2005/03/its-human-nature-innit.html

You might do well to read the rest of the blog, its not my flavour of socialism, but its at least intelligent.

[Beel2112]

114. Let me take a few minutes...

...to show you how one goes about making an effective argument (i.e., something other than dismissing a claim because you don't like the source {or more aptly, what the source says}). Of course, this is a lot easier to do when you're correct, but I digress...

This blog is just silly. The opening and the "So are humans naturally aggressive?" sections are ridiculously flawed analogies. The author makes the same mistake that Mr. Wong (my source) pointed out; trying to pass off the aggression of countries/governments versus the aggression of an individual. No, I don't want to go fight a war (the most extreme example of aggression I can think of...) as this author writes. That doesn't mean I'm content to earn the same as my neighbor, that I don't want to be able to buy nicer things than Joe Blow down the street who's content with lower-middle-class, etc., etc.. This author took an--extreme!--example of action by a government and passed it off as indicative of an individual's behavior. Bogus analogy.

"So humans are greedy?"

This is laughable. The analogy is a kid taking an candy from a shelf in the store:

"Now note, it is just one packet, not ten and six packets of crisps!"

Note! She didn't need even one, she just wanted it. That's still greed. Certainly less greedy than the {again extreme} example of 16 items, but greed nonetheless.
Note! This is one example, I've seen kids pick up two items! My worthless example therefore cancels out this equally ridiculous proof!

"Surely a child would be more predisposed to fill his or her arms with a stash of chocolate than an adult – believing this to be simply for the taking."

That of course assumes the author's assumption is correct; that the child has absolutely no concept of money. Which I seriously doubt. It's just as likely that the kid knows there's a far better chance of the mother consenting to one item than 16. Of course, the author makes no mention of this possibility.

"Water is generally considered to be “free” – you can for instance go into a public building and get a free drink at a water fountain – but no one runs in with 10 gallon containers in order to hoard it at home."

Do I really need to explain that the benefits of "free" water outweigh the costs? Or that you don't go running around with 10 gallon containers of water because it's a little inconvenient? Water is dirt cheap, but I still don't complain too much when it rains because it's putting free water in my pool.

"Air is free, but when did you last hear of anyone extracting it and storing it in warehouses?"

This is an utter failure to understand supply and demand. And I'm not sure what the heck the author means by "extracting {air} and storing it". Elements are extracted from air and sold. Ditto for compressed air. Long story short,
:wtf:

NEXT!

"Humans are selfish?"

A slew of semi-worthless statistics to start:
"In Britain there are 180,000 registered charities."

What is a "registered" charity? What percent of those 180,000 actually report $$$ being donated, and more importantly, how much {especially as a percent of total income}? A big number that's supposed to be meaningful, but upon inspection, clearly wasn't meant to be inspected.

"These charities involve millions of people..."

How involved? If I give 25 cents, am I considered "involved"? I bet so.

"...the percentage of volunteers in America is the largest of any country - almost 56%."

Wait a minute; it wasn't too long ago Europe was whining how stingy we were! What's going on here--do we only help ourselves? Or is it possible this number is a little shady? ;)

"The average hours volunteered per week by an individual is 3.5 hours."

Or, alternatively, 3.5/(7x24) hours a week, which is 2.1% of their time. I guess the other 97.9% is "me time". Also, I'd really like to see how much this is weighted by retirees, who I'm willing to bet skew this {dubious} number.

"According to Charity America, donations to charity for 2002 were $241 billion, 76.3 per cent of this given by individuals."

Let's do some math! The population of the US is {I believe} ~270 million. 76.3% of $241 billion is ~$183 billion. Long story short, the "average" US citizen donated $680 in 2002. A couple problems with this number:
1. Bill Gates (whose foundation donated $1.2 Billion in 2003 according to their factsheet) and other philanthropists who donate billions of dollars are seriously skewing this number. (Strangely enough, the "evils" of capitalism made this possible...)
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/MediaCenter/FactSheet/default.htm
2. What happened just ~3.5 months prior to the start of 2002? A national tragedy the likes of which has never seen which brought out the best in everyone. That may be nothing, but I'd like to see say, 2000's donations.
3. There are many Americans who simply couldn't afford this number, further evidence that Point #1 above played a big role in this number. (A mode or median would be a far more useful statistic than the arithmetical average I calculated.)

"Now let’s go back to December 26th, 2005, when the Asia Tsunami hit, killing upwards of 200,000."

Yes, let's taken yet another extreme example of people coming together during times of crisis and try to pass it off as typical behavior... :eyes:

[Vladimir]

139. Thank you for that lesson in debating

now:

1) The author talks about how humans are not intrinsically agressive, citing examples of human reluctance to fight in wars (which you admit to having youself). You claim "That doesn't mean I'm content to earn the same as my neighbor, that I don't want to be able to buy nicer things than Joe Blow down the street who's content with lower-middle-class..." in refutation. This is popularly known as a non-sequitur.

2) The water thing is interesting. No individual runs around with 10 gallon cans hoarding water, but US corporations certainly have been running around administering privatised water supplies (in Bolivia for example) with the curious result that many people were denied access to it. Individuals ain't greedy enough to hoard water, but nothing is so low that a multinational won't stoop to it.

3) Sidestepping the argument through number crunching is amusing, I'll grant you that.

[Say_What]

110. LOL and capitalism is a *success*??? At the expense of how many lives?

Let's see, how many dictatorships did the US prop up in this hemisphere alone in order to *preserve* capitalism? How many lives were lost when RayGun did his crusade against *communism* in Central America? How many CIA-led coups in Latin America (37 if I'm not mistaken) in order to preserve US interests (United Fruit, Shell Oil, etc, etc.)

Maybe YOU can explain why so many innocent people have to die so that capitalism can survive and why the majority of the planet lives in abject poverty if *capitalism* is such a great concept.

Better yet, let's look at what a former NSA employee who later worked for private corporations has to say about his *work* in building the American empire.

<clips>

...JOHN PERKINS: Basically what we were trained to do and what our job is to do is to build up the American empire. To bring -- to create situations where as many resources as possible flow into this country, to our corporations, and our government, and in fact we’ve been very successful. We’ve built the largest empire in the history of the world. It's been done over the last 50 years since World War II with very little military might, actually. It's only in rare instances like Iraq where the military comes in as a last resort. This empire, unlike any other in the history of the world, has been built primarily through economic manipulation, through cheating, through fraud, through seducing people into our way of life, through the economic hit men. I was very much a part of that.

...AMY GOODMAN: Okay. Explain the company you worked for.

JOHN PERKINS: Well, the company I worked for was a company named Chas. T. Main in Boston, Massachusetts. We were about 2,000 employees, and I became its chief economist. I ended up having fifty people working for me. But my real job was deal-making. It was giving loans to other countries, huge loans, much bigger than they could possibly repay. One of the conditions of the loan–let's say a $1 billion to a country like Indonesia or Ecuador–and this country would then have to give ninety percent of that loan back to a U.S. company, or U.S. companies, to build the infrastructure–a Halliburton or a Bechtel. These were big ones. Those companies would then go in and build an electrical system or ports or highways, and these would basically serve just a few of the very wealthiest families in those countries. The poor people in those countries would be stuck ultimately with this amazing debt that they couldn’t possibly repay. A country today like Ecuador owes over fifty percent of its national budget just to pay down its debt. And it really can’t do it. So, we literally have them over a barrel. So, when we want more oil, we go to Ecuador and say, “Look, you're not able to repay your debts, therefore give our oil companies your Amazon rain forest, which are filled with oil.” And today we're going in and destroying Amazonian rain forests, forcing Ecuador to give them to us because they’ve accumulated all this debt. So we make this big loan, most of it comes back to the United States, the country is left with the debt plus lots of interest, and they basically become our servants, our slaves. It's an empire. There's no two ways about it. It’s a huge empire. It's been extremely successful.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/09/1526251

[Beel2112]

113. Wow...just...wow...

You know, changing the subject is never a really good {winning} strategy, and it's even less so when it's blatant. Your "answer" to why that after over 100 years since it's inception, Marxist communism/socialism hasn't been able to get off the ground is that "capitalism is bad"??? Shouldn't that mean that Marxism would be doing better than capitalism by now {which it clearly isn't}?

[Say_What]

115. Oh, my... BIG YAWN

your machinations and attempts at justification to make yourself right are soooo boring. But then that's what one would expect from someone who quotes from a Star Wars vs Star Trek site. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:

[Beel2112]

117. That's right, pretend you have a leg to stand on.

Maybe some day it'll come true. I mean, just because the manifesto was written 157 years ago and we're no closer to a working marxist government today as back then {I would say even farther, given its failings} is certainly no indication that it won't succeed tomorrow, right? :eyes:

[Say_What]

119. Waaaa, waaaaa, waaaa

cry us a river.

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

[Beel2112]

120. Let me get this straight:

You have absolutely no answer as to why Marxism has completely failed to work (besides a moronic "Capitalism is bad!"), yet you still think you're winning the argument?


And to think I used to wonder why the Democrats keep losing elections...

[Say_What]

122. Keep going it's entertaining :-)

Next thing you'll probably be defending Pinochet for killing all those *commies*.

While you're at it, re-read the other responses to your original post. I'm not the only one who thinks you're blowing smoke out your a$$.

[Beel2112]

123. That's right--you win!

Seriously dude--wake up and smell the coffee. Pick up a copy of Ronald Radosh's {a former communist} "Commies: A Journey Through the Old Left, the New Left and the Leftover Left" and realize the bold part is where Marxism is today; it's in shreds. It failed, and failed miserably. Yet you can't seem to answer why it failed.

"I'm not the only one who thinks you're blowing smoke out your a$$. "

Yeah, I know. Did you notice that not one of you has an intelligent (your attempt to switch the subject to the evils of capitalism was just sad) explanation for why Marx's theories remain just that--theory? Seriously, all you can do is make fun of the guy's hobby. That's your best defense, and it's as pathetic as Marxism's track record in this little thing called "reality".

[Say_What]

124. Pooor baby.

:hurts: :hurts: :hurts:

[Beel2112]

125. So in conclusion...

...not one of you has an answer to the question, "Why, after 100+ years, has Marxism yet to succeed?" I'm glad that brilliance like yours is leading Marxism's charge--it ensures that Marxism will never see the light of day. :hi:

[Say_What]

127. See post 126.

}(

[Say_What]

126. Do you support Pinochet too??

the obsession with "Marxism is a failure" is a dead give away.

:spank: :spank: :spank:

[Beel2112]

128. Geez...

Um, no, I don't support Pinochet or his barbaric regime. But what really perplexes me is that even if I did, it wouldn't do anything to advance the idea that Marxism has better than a snowball's chance in hell of ever working {I'm guessing you weren't a star on the ol' high school debate team?}. See, Allende's socialist policies destroyed the economy, thus paving the way for Pinochet:

"Overall, the behavior of the economy in 1971 seemed to vindicate the UP economists: real GDP grew at 7.7 percent, average real wages increased by 17 percent, aggregate consumption grew at a real rate of 13.2 percent, and the rate of unemployment dipped below 4 percent.
...
All did not remain well in the economy in 1971. The UP's macroeconomic policies were rapidly generating a situation of repressed inflation. The high growth rate of GDP was largely the result of an almost 40 percent increase in imports of intermediate goods. The fiscal deficit had jumped from 2 percent of GDP in 1970 to almost 11 percent in 1971. The rate at which the money supply grew exceeded 100 percent in 1971. As a result, the stock of international reserves inherited by the Allende government was reduced by more than one-half in that year alone.
...
By the end of 1971, the mounting inflationary pressures had become evident. The economy was experiencing the consequences of an aggregate demand for goods and services well above the aggregate supply at current prices. This imbalance was aggravated by a series of labor disputes in many large establishments that resulted in the takeover of those firms by their workers. In fact, this procedure became the institutionalized way in which the government seized a large number of firms.

During 1972 the macroeconomic problems continued to mount. Inflation surpassed 200 percent, and the fiscal deficit surpassed 13 percent of GDP.
...
During the first quarter of 1973, Chile's economic problems became extremely serious. Inflation reached an annual rate of more than 120 percent, industrial output declined by almost 6 percent, and foreign-exchange reserves held by the Central Bank were barely above US$40 million.
...
For that year {1973}, the fiscal deficit ended up exceeding 23 percent of GDP."
http://www.country-studies.com/chile/economic-crisis-and-the-military-coup.html

Not exactly a rousing success for Marxism...

You'll be pleased to know that since they moved to a market economy they've done much, much better:
http://countrystudies.us/chile/56.htm

[Judi Lynn]

129. So you've deduced Chile's economy under Allende was in shambles.

Imagine that.

The US effort to destabilise Chile was led by a policy of massively funding and bribing non-leftwing Chilean politicians.

Throughout the 1960s, the US secretly spent millions funding political parties of their choosing - usually the moderate Christian Democrats led by Eduardo Frei Montalva. By the early 1970s, Chilean society had become so leftwing that Washington decided to change tactics. First, President Nixon authorised $10m to be spent "to make the economy scream".

He also authorised pro-coup initiatives designed to destroy the traditional reluctance of Chilean military men to take over civilian government.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/chile/story/0,13755,1038615,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It would seem Nixon's plan worked for Nixon, and idiot right-wingers in the States, then, wouldn't it?

For any DU'ers who haven't taken a look yet, you might find this worth scanning:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB110/

http://www.gwu.edu.nyud.net:8090/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB110/cover.jpg

[Beel2112]

138. Yeah, we blockaded them...

...but that's to be expected when you steal (or are planning to steal) several hundred million dollars of US assets from us. Then there's the little problem that we didn't create the hyper inflation, the 6% drop in manufacturing, the 40% increase in imports (courtesy of a Soviet-style drop in farm productivity), the doubling of the money supply growth rate, etc.. In fact, the only thing I listed there that can be directly attributed to our economic blockade was the drop in foreign-exchange reserves. Those problems arose directly from Allende's socialist policies.

"Although the right was on the defensive in Allende's first year, it moved on the offensive and forged an alliance with the center in the next two years. In Congress this center-right coalition erected a blockade against all Popular Unity initiatives, harassed Popular Unity cabinet ministers, and denounced the administration as illegitimate and unconstitutional, thus setting the stage for a military takeover. The most acrimonious battle raged over the boundaries of Popular Unity's "social property area" (área de propriedad social), which would incorporate private holdings through government intervention, requisition, or expropriation. The Supreme Court and the comptroller general of the republic joined Congress in criticizing the executive branch for overstepping its constitutional bounds."

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/chile/allende.htm

It's rather odd that despite being such a great idea, you're arguing that it took only $10 million worth of propaganda to prevent it from happenening. That's pretty sad, don't you think?

It's also interesting that Bush can't pass a tax cut {which no, I did not support} with ~50% of the popular vote without DU'ers attacking his lack of a mandate. Yet Allende was elected with only 36.2% of the national vote and then enacted sweeping reforms of the entire economy. Care to comment on that? {Let me guess: he really had a majority, but the CIA suppressed at least 13.9% of the vote, right, a number with absolutely no supporting evidence? And somehow Allende knew he really did have a mandate despite having no feasible way of actually knowing that? Surely the US wasn't trying to prevent a minority party from seizing control of the entire country and converting it to socialism/communism, was it?}

Oh, and here, let me save you all some time and write your canned response for you:

"The FAS is a {insert US Government agency} backed {puppet/pawn/front} and is utterly devoid of credibility and therefore can not possibly be right, unless of course they report something we believe, in which case that report--and only that report--is infallible evidence of what we've been saying all along. Or in other words, we only believe what we want to believe and will not concede even the most obvious of truths, such as Cuba's deplorable human rights record, where this conversation began before we gladly moved to other subjects in the face of overwhelming evidence that we're living in a fantasy world."

[Vladimir]

140. Actually what is funny here is that nothing in that

FAS article backs up anything of what you have been saying...

PS I am truly bored to be pointing this out, but one of the curious features of two party politics with no serious third party challenger (and Perot aside, there hasn't been one) is that the slimmest mandate you can get is around the 50% mark...

[Beel2112]

142. Do you see that part in bold?

"FAS article backs up anything of what you have been saying..."

You know, the part that shows the Allende's positions united the other two parties against him and "thus the stage for a military takeover"?

"I am truly bored to be pointing this out, but one of the curious features of two party politics with no serious third party challenger (and Perot aside, there hasn't been one) is that the slimmest mandate you can get is around the 50% mark..."

That's still better than a 36%. Or, say, Cuba's one-party system...

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

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[Judi Lynn]

149. More info. on the U.S. right-wing destruction of Chile's elected President

The stage was set for a clash of two experiments. One was Allende's "socialist" experiment aimed at lifting Chile from the mire of underdevelopment and dependency and the poor from deprivation. The other was, as CIA Director William Colby later put it, a "prototype or laboratory experiment to test the techniques of heavy financial investment in an effort to discredit and bring down a government."
Although there were few individual features of this experiment which were unique for the CIA, in sum total it was perhaps the most multifarious intervention ever undertaken by the United States. In the process it brought a new word into the language: destabilizatlon.
"Not a nut or bolt be allowed to reach Chile under Allende", warned American Ambassador Edward Korry before the confirmation. The Chilean economy, so extraordinarily dependent upon the United States, was the country's soft underbelly, easy to pound. Over the next three years, new US government assistance programs for Chile plummeted almost to the vanishing point, similarly with loans from the US Export-Import Bank and the Inter-American Development Bank, in which the United States held what amounted to a veto; and the World Bank made no new loans at all to Chile during 1971-73. US government financial assistance or guarantees to American private investment in Chile were cut back sharply and American businesses were given the word to tighten the economic noose.
What this boycott translated into were things like the many buses and taxis out of commission in Chile due to a lack of replacement parts; and similar difficulties in the copper, steel, electricity and petroleum industries. American suppliers refused to sell needed parts despite Chile's offer to pay cash in advance.
Multinational ITT, which didn't need to be told what to do, stated in a 1970 memorandum: "A more realistic hope among those who want to block Allende is that a swiftly deteriorating economy will touch off a wave of violence leading to a military coup."
(snip/...)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Chile_KH.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It only goes to show you right-wingers can't handle power. They get crazy and try to take over the world. They butt into things which are simply none of their business.

They are failed people.

[Vladimir]

130. Countrystudies.us?

you mean, the US Army funded research project?

What a barrel of laughs, mon ami.

[Say_What]

133. Exactly!!! LOL

:-)

[Beel2112]

141. I'm getting sick of saying this, but...

...are ANY of you capable of addressing the subject, or is your entire debating "repertoire" consist of attacking credibility and picking and choosing which reports from the same source are "reliable"?

US Army sponsors something we disagree with, well, that's not credible.
US Senate/Congress sponsors Pike/Church reports, well, those are the truth. Nevermind that they're both products of the very same US government. Judi, you attacked the credibility of Human Rights Watch and then in the very next sentence asked why I didn't quote their reports on the US.

Seriously, do you all not see how utterly absurd this is???

[Mika]

144. Um, the subject is Cuba raising salaries to teachers & Drs.

Nice hijack of this thread. :puke:

[Vladimir]

146. Picking and choosing sources is a pretty important part

of study - otherwise you end up like Robert Conquest...

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

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[Say_What]

132. The Chilean coup was Allende's fault?? Man, are you transparent...

First the Star Wars vs Star Trek analysis of Marxism and now a US Army Source on how the coup was Allende's fault. WOW.

BTW, Chile is about to have its first woman president. She's a SOCIALIST!! and keep an eye on Mexico too, the front runner there is also a SOCIALIST!!

<clips>
From declassified docs:

These documents include:

** Cables written by U.S. Ambassador Edward Korry after Allende's election, detailing conversations with President Eduardo Frei on how to block the president-elect from being inaugurated. The cables contain detailed descriptions and opinions on the various political forces in Chile, including the Chilean military, the Christian Democrat Party, and the U.S. business community.

** CIA memoranda and reports on "Project FUBELT"--the codename for covert operations to promote a military coup and undermine Allende's government. The documents, including minutes of meetings between Henry Kissinger and CIA officials, CIA cables to its Santiago station, and summaries of covert action in 1970, provide a clear paper trail to the decisions and operations against Allende's government

** National Security Council strategy papers which record efforts to "destabilize" Chile economically, and isolate Allende's government diplomatically, between 1970 and 1973.

** State Department and NSC memoranda and cables after the coup, providing evidence of human rights atrocities under the new military regime led by General Pinochet.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

[Say_What]

134. No doubt you think that the School of the Americas spreads *democracy*

and the Plan Colombia is about stopping the drug trade.

[Vladimir]

135. And the National Endowment for Democracy

is democratic...

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

156. Your "argument" is bullshit.

If the most powerful government in the world decided to make Chile's economy "scream". Which it did. How the hell can that be a fair way to measure Allende's policies? By the way it seems you boy Augusto liked some of those "commie" ideas.

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=16&row=2

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

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[Guy Whitey Corngood]

161. No, your silly ass claim that Mr Allende brought the coup on himself

linked you just fine. Second of all you did not address the fact that a superpower was sabotaging the Chilean economy. Now tell me. How was that Mr. Allende or his people's fault? What brought about the need to mess with this country in the first place. You are one to talk about logic. It's funny you coming here telling people how little they know. Yet you don't seem to know shit about Latin America and US involvement in our affairs. Either that or you're OK with it.

Say what you will about Cuba, but you put your foot in your big ass mouth by bringing up that nonsense about Chile.

I also noticed how you did not address the most important points in the article. Pinochet fucked up that economy with that Milton Friedman crap. Then he tried to bail the country out by acting like a commie. Maybe you should read it again and get back to me.

PS I didn't argue anything about hyperinflation. You did. Your reading skills are as bad as your knowledge aof The Americas.

[Beel2112]

162. Again, come back when you know some basic economics

"Second of all you did not address the fact that a superpower was sabotaging the Chilean economy. "

1. It wasn't "sabotage", it was an open blockade, in no small part a response to their nationalizing (stealing) close to US$1 billion of assets.
2. I did address that, quite obviously in post entitled, "Yeah we blockaded them..." and followed by:

"Then there's the little problem that we didn't create the hyper inflation, the 6% drop in manufacturing, the 40% increase in imports (courtesy of a Soviet-style drop in farm productivity), the doubling of the money supply growth rate, etc.. In fact, the only thing I listed there that can be directly attributed to our economic blockade was the drop in foreign-exchange reserves. Those problems arose directly from Allende's socialist policies."

Care to address how ANY of those were the direct result of our "sabotage" and not Allende's moronic policies? The policies that led to economic collapse, which in turn helped bring about the coup that yes, the US backed?

Edit:
"I also noticed how you did not address the most important points in the article."

We're discussing Chile's economy under Allende, 1971-73, not "a decade later" under Pinochet. Which is why I didn't address it at all. (Sort of like how Palast "forgot" to mention that the economy was already in shambles when Pinochet took over (including the beginning of the debt crisis).)

"PS I didn't argue anything about hyperinflation. You did."

The point of that was that that (and many other) problems were not caused by the US sanctions. They were directly results of Allende's socialist "reforms".

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

164. Haaahaaahaaahaaa. Tell you what. I don't have to come back.

I haven't gone anywhere. Let me explain something to you. They did not steal anything. Those are and were Chilean resources. Second of all if those whorish corporations would have paid their fair share for those resources. I'm sure nobody would have said nothing. Did you even read the percentages before and after Pinochet?

Before Allende no US agency or corporation had no problem with Chile's abysmal economic inequality. Probably neither do you.

It was sabotage. Who do you think was behind the truck driver strikes that paralyzed the country? Probably Allende set those up right.

The fact that General Schneider was murdered3d by your boys. Had more to do with the coup taking place than your supposed economic collapse. Everywhere one looks at this episode in history. US govt. fingerprints are to be found. Do you think for one moment the this economic sabotage by the US wasn't the problem? They not only supported the coup. The provided the weapons and bribed military officers. Get your shit straight. They gave them the disease and "sold" them the cure. Your own declassified documents tell the story. But since you seem to like this kind of imperialist aggression it must be a lie.

I bet you're the shit when it comes to Star Trek though. The only moronic thinking here is, oh never mind............

[Beel2112]

165. Uh-huh...

"Let me explain something to you."

Oh dear lord...

"Those are and were Chilean resources."

Actually those US companies bought those mines. The Allende government took them back and gave said corporations nothing in return. How's that not stealing, exactly?

"Second of all if those whorish corporations would have paid their fair share for those resources. I'm sure nobody would have said nothing."

Uh...try rewording that so that it makes some sense. Maybe try making a complete sentence and removing the double-negative? I guess your writing ability is as bad as my "reading skills" which you tried to insult a post back...

Wow...let's look at that again: "I'm sure nobody would have said nothing." That's gotta rank of there with that Freeper's "Get a brain, morans!"

"Before Allende no US agency or corporation had no problem..."

Good god--you did it again! And I'm supposedly the moron here? :rofl:

But as to the point you were attempting to make: Well, no US corporation had had its assets stolen prior to Allende either, now had they? Cause<-->Effect

"Who do you think was behind the truck driver strikes that paralyzed the country?"

How sad is it that the poor workers, the very people socialism is supposed to help, were so easily persuaded to fight against it? (Assuming your insinuation has any merit...)

"Do you think for one moment the this economic sabotage by the US wasn't the problem?"

As I've already stated twice (yet you have failed to comprehend), yes, it was part of the problem. An even bigger part was Allende's failed policies.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

166. Well, let's see.

English is not my first language. What's your excuse? After posting 1000+ times two grammatical errors have been brought to my attention (I'm sure there's more). I'd say that ain't bad (that's right I said ain't).

"Actually those US companies bought those mines. The Allende government took them back and gave said corporations nothing in return. How's that not stealing, exactly?"

Prove it. People don't steal what already belongs to them. Maybe they thought of it as a hostile take over. You know the kind right wingers just love (wink, wink). Who sold these mines in the first place. What were the stipulations on those contracts? Why were those assets frozen? Some proof would be nice.

"How sad is it that the poor workers, the very people socialism is supposed to help, were so easily persuaded to fight against it? (Assuming your insinuation has any merit...)"

First of all many of the unions had corrupt bosses. People can be persuaded by money. Don't you think? It's not an insinuation it's a fact. Which proves that you don't know shit about this matter. I've seen the video footage of the strikes and protests. But I'm it was all a coincidence.

Now tell me something if Allende did these things out in the open. If he was such a thief. Why all the secrecy and collusion between the US govt, ITT and the rest? If their case had any merit. I'm sure they wouldn't have had fuck things up the way they did.

"As I've already stated twice (yet you have failed to comprehend), yes, it was part of the problem. An even bigger part was Allende's failed policies."

Let me explain this to you again. Since English might not be your 1st language either. Th US was not part of the problem. Thet were the problem. (just like in Iraq). By undermining the Allende administration from day one. It is all well documented. The man was elected fair and square and his policies were not given a chance to work or fail. Trying to create a decent economy from a corrupt pseudo colony takes time and effort. You did not address the % numbers before and after Pinochet. There is no way of telling if Allende's policies would have worked or not. After all he was only around for 3 years. I'll say it again these problems were brought about by foreign interference. I don't know what part of this is so hard to understand.

You did not address the General's murder and how the military was purged. To say he brought this on himself is to piss on the graves of all those people. Fucking shame on you.

I know this is all wasted on you. The more you reply to people here the more transparent you become. But keep trying. I'm laughing my ass off oh great master debater. If you come into my house spewing this shit. I have to check that chin. KnowatImsayin'?

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

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[Judi Lynn]

214. "Risking American Workers Pensions on the Dubious Success Pinochet's Econo

Chilean Social Security Reform
Wednesday, 6 July 2005, 10:54 am
Press Release: Council on Hemispheric Affairs

Council On Hemispheric Affairs - http://www.coha.org/
Monitoring Political, Economic and Diplomatic Issues Affecting the Western Hemisphere
Memorandum to the Press 05.68
Word Count: 1750
Tuesday, July 5 2005

Chilean Social Security Reform; Risking American Workers Pensions on the Dubious Success Pinochet's Economic Strategy
• President Bush is touring the nation this summer in an effort to gain support for his social security reform plan, which was in part bequeathed to him by the Chilean dictator and quite properly faces widespread public and congressional opposition in the U.S.

• Bush points to Chile’s pension system as a model for U.S. reform. However, the success of this plan for old-age assistance is questionable.

• The Chilean pension system compromises the safety of workers’ investments by risking steep market fluctuations in hopes of gambling on augmenting retirement funds.
Furthermore, high marketing costs and bamboozling salesmen can slash the real value of pension accounts.

• After having devoted much of his second term so far to promoting pension privatization, Bush has not yet been able to secure wide public support for his reform plan. Considering the thunderous public opposition to social security privatization, Republicans now fear a backlash from the proposed reform due to the upcoming 2006 mid-term elections.
(snip)

Once again on the road early this month to attract popular support for his plan to privatize social security, President George W. Bush has proposed a model for pension reform based in part on the formula adopted in 1981 by the regime of Chilean military dictator General Augusto Pinochet. Both the circumstances under which the Chilean system was implemented in 1981, and its questionable success over the past quarter century, raise serious doubts as to its potential for successful application in the U.S.
(snip/...)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0507/S00074.htm

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

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[Guy Whitey Corngood]

191. So what?

I'm still not getting how any of this justifies murder and oppression. Especially given the fact that during his term Allende governed under the constitution. He respected his opponents' human rights and did not use the military to get his way. This is how a democracy is supposed to work.

Now you might be right on something. Maybe Salvador Allende brought all this murder and mayhem on himself, his country, US citizens (disappeared), etc. After all those poor multi national companies had his best interests at hand. It's not like they had influenced Chilean elections covertly for more than a decade.......... Wait a minute. Maybe these corporations actually brought "it" on themselves. Could that be it?


Before Allende's election, ITT channeled $700,000 to Allende's opponent Jorge Allesandri, and used the advice of the CIA on how to channel this money safely.5 They also compiled a list of leading U.S. corporations in Chile in February, 1970, and through John McCone (CIA director, 1961-1965, and now on the ITT board), ITT president Harold Geneen offered $1 million to the CIA to help defeat Allende.6

ITT was not the only participant at this early stage. ITT vice-president William R. Merriam testified that he assembled a committee of representatives of U.S. corporations in February, 1971 to work out an anti-Allende strategy.7 The "united front" began after Allende's election, and included Treasury Secretary John Connally and his assistant John Hennessy (a man with solid Wall Street connections).8 But there is evidence that other corporations were independently conspiracy-minded at an earlier date:

The weight of evidence available from the ITT papers and other sources indicates that Anaconda helped finance a campaign of disruption before the election, and that it also joined with Kennecott in what was effectively sabotage in the copper mines. Ralston Purina cut back production sharply. NIBSA, the leading producers of brass valves and other fittings, a subsidiary of Northern Indiana Brass Company, shut down its plant and laid off 280 workers the day before Allende's inauguration. A representative of the parent company, Northern Indiana Brass, was accused of suggesting an "Indonesian solution" (killing all communists) for Chile. Purina, a subsidiary of Ralston Purina and the country's largest producer of animal feed, also cut production sharply.9
After Allende's election in 1970, commercial banks, including Chase Manhattan, Chemical, First National City, Manufacturers Hanover, and Morgan Guaranty, cancelled credits to Chile.10 In 1972, Kennecott tied up Chilean copper exports with lawsuits in France, Sweden, Italy, and Germany, forcing Chile to spend $150,000 in legal expenses.11 The campaign continued even after Allende agreed, in February 1972, to pay a Kennecott subsidiary $84 million and made a down payment of $5.7 million.12
Immediately after the 1973 coup, Manufacturers Hanover loaned $44 million to Chile, and ten other U.S. and two Canadian banks loaned $150 million.13 In 1975 a group of banks that included First National City, Bank of America, Morgan Guaranty, and Chemical gave a $70 million renewable credit to Chile.14 Ford, GM, Chrysler, and six other firms placed bids for a massive reorganization and expansion of the Chilean auto assembly industry,15 and ITT gave $25 million for a planned science research center.16 All 323 firms that were nationalized constitutionally under Allende have been returned to private ownership.17 ITT, which asked for $95 million from Allende, has recovered $235 million from the junta.18

In addition to multinationals and commercial banks, the U.S. government also involved itself in the economic boycott. The involvement of the government was partly a result of massive pressure from ITT, which had access to Kissinger, William Rogers, the CIA, and the U.S. Ambassador in Chile.19 Geneen met with CIA Chief of Clandestine Operations for the Western Hemisphere Division William V. Broe on July 16, 1970,20 and with Nixon's assistant for international affairs Peter Peterson in September, 1971.21 Merriam visited the State Department 25 times and talked with Kissinger and his aides for a year, according to his testimony,22 and on October 1, 1971 wrote to Peterson suggesting that the administration halt economic aid to Chile.23

http://www.namebase.org/chile.html


The way banks and other corporations reacted to the man's election was pretty much damned if you do or if you don't. I appreciate the links and we can criticize some of the way things were handled by his administration. But it seems to me he had a lot of help from our corporate friends. If you were arguing that the way he reacted to these outside pressures was misguided and even dumb. I might give you that. But don't fucking pretend for one minute that these guys went for the throat as soon as he got elected.

It seems to me that for all that dirty money coming into the country to ensure his defeat wasn't enough. You act as if somehow the fact that he squeezed into office with a low percentage even matters. I say that for all the effort to prevent him from being elected (how many millions are we talking about?)in the first place. He did pretty damn good. It seems to me he reacted to the people who were trying to get them first.

So unlike you I will not take the side of these robber baron fuckers. If Salvador Allende was so bad for the country. The people and their institutions should have been the ones to take care of it. That's why they had a pretty damn good constitution. They also had a military leader who respected the constitution. No matter how he disagreed with the president elect.

Now if by supporting you mean orchestrate. Then we might be in agreement. Nobody who governs within the law and respects human rights. Deserves to be violently overthrown and murdered along with 1000s of others. That's bullshit. I'll say it again if he was so bad and incompetent. There ware other means available to the opposition. Also if he had so little support according to you. Why were 1000s murdered and "disapeared". Things would have gone right back to normal after he was "taken care of". After all he wasn't even popular.

By your logic every other US president should have been overthrown in a coup. After all there have been plenty of bad decisions mistekes or what have ya even by otherwise competent chief executives.

http://foia.state.gov/Reports/ChurchReport.asp


http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/nov1998/cia-n13.shtml

http://newsmine.org/archive/coldwar-imperialism/chile/chile-plots-pepsi-itt.txt

http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/chile.html

[Beel2112]

192. You're reversing cause and effect.

The corporations were funding opposition parties in the elections for the prior decade because they were afraid they would be nationalized. As the one link I pointed out shows, the nationalization plan was actually begun under Allende's predecessor; Allende accelerated the plan and didn't give any compensation.

"The people and their institutions should have been the ones to take care of it."

That's another misconception--the Chilean people did take care of it. It was not US citizens or military that led the coup, it was the Chilean military. Yes, they had our support--we gave them money, but we did not lead the revolution. Was it wrong for the USSR to further their interests by giving support to Allende and Castro (who received subsidies that were by some estimates equal to one quarter of Cuba's GDP, far outpacing the US$10 million spent in Chile cited by one of your other like-minded posters here)? Of course not. Would it have been alright if Russians came over and led the Cuban revolution? No, here we seem to agree that the decision to reform is up to the people of that country.

So why the big stink when the US does the same thing?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

193. I'm doing no such thing.

I provided plenty of links showing the criminality of the US government when it came to Chile. Believe whatever the fuck you want. The US has moral authority to tell the USSR not to interfere in other countries by giving them money support or what have you. Since we've been doing it since the late 1800's.

"That's another misconception--the Chilean people did take care of it. It was not US citizens or military that led the coup, it was the Chilean military. Yes, they had our support--we gave them money, but we did not lead the revolution."

That's bullshit again. Next thing you'll say the same thing about the Contras. Without the logistics, money, weapons, etc. it would not have been successful. If I give you a gun knowing you're going to shoot your wife. What would that make me?

No matter how you slice it still is a fucked up statement to make. If you find out I'm plotting against you. Then you try to defend yourself. I guess I would be justified in killing you. Because you had it coming. Nah, I still think it's bullshit. At this point I realize I'm wasting my time. I'm sure the people at Pearl Harbor, The Twin Towers, etc. All had it coming to them.

PS The people didn't decide shit. A couple of fascist generals and their US handlers did, behind closed doors. Remember that.

[Beel2112]

194. Actually you are.

"I'm doing no such thing. {reversing cause and effect}"
Yes you are. Why does your own source, the Church report start coverage in 1963? Because prior to 1963 there was no threat of nationalization (the cause). When the US started worrying about our assets being stolen, that's when they started acting (the effect).

"The US has {no} moral authority to tell the USSR not to interfere in other countries by giving them money support or what have you."

I never said they did. I was just pointing out the double standard of whether or not foreign governments should get involved in other country's politics. Foreign support for non-socialist governments is pure evil, but foreign support for socialist governments is a-okay.

""PS The people didn't decide shit. A couple of fascist generals and their US handlers did, behind closed doors. Remember that. ... {second post} Without the logistics, money, weapons, etc. it would not have been successful."

Guess what? The CIA attempt at a coup was NOT successful:
"Half a decade later, in 1970, the CIA engaged in another special effort, this time at the express request of President Nixon and under the injunction not to inform the Departments of State or Defense or the Ambassador of the project. Nor was the 40 Committee (2) ever informed. The CIA attempted, directly, to foment a military coup in Chile. It passed three weapons {that's right, three (3) weapons--beel2112} to a group of Chilean officers who plotted a coup. Beginning with the kidnaping of Chilean Army Commander-in-Chief Rene Schneider. However, those guns were returned. The group which staged the abortive kidnap of Schneider, which resulted in his death, apparently was not the same as the group which received CIA weapons."

Furthermore, "Was the United States DIRECTLY involved, covertly, in the 1973 coup in Chile? The Committee has found no evidence that it was."

Source: The Church Report on Covert Action in Chile 1963-1973
http://foia.state.gov/Reports/ChurchReport.asp#A.%20Overview:%20Cover%20Action%20in%20Chile

That's the very same report you cited, and it says that there's no evidence that the CIA was directly involved in the 1973 coup.

I guess that leaves the Chileans (perhaps just "a couple of fascist generals", who I would point out are still Chileans, who are the people who should be making the decision, regardless if they're fascist or socialist) as the people who overthrew their (minority elected) president who tried to radically reform the country.

"At this point I realize I'm wasting my time."

Given that big bold sentence above, I would have to you are 100% correct here.

[Name removed]

195. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beel2112]

196. Anyone else see the pattern here?

""The documents that would be revealing ... are still missing and still need to be declassified," Peter Kornbluh, Chile Documentation Project director at the National Security Archive, told CNN. The National Security Archive is a nonprofit organization that has campaigned for release of the documents.""

Let's see what else the esteemed Mr. Kornbluh has to say in that same article:

"Kornbluh told CNN that the CIA -- which provided $350,000 to help fund the coup -- had not played a direct role in the coup."

Now let's combine that with this gem found near the bottom:

"Researchers hoped the documents would provide details of a possible U.S. government role in toppling Allende's democratically elected government, and in support of Pinochet."

Notice the use of past tense there: "hoped".

Looks like they didn't find it.

(Your) Source:
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/11/13/cia.chile.02/

It seems to me that this source of yours is (again) proving my point--the Chileans revolted against Allende & his minority group that tried to radically reform the entire country. Because it was in US interest, they supported the opposition. If it were reversed, and the US had funded a socialist coup, would you have cared about the legality of it?

[Name removed]

198. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Say_What]

199. CIA Acknowledges Ties to Pinochet’s Repression

Anyone with half a brain can deduce that the US was directly involved in Allende's overthrow, just like they were involved in the failed coup attempt against Hugo Chavez in Venezuela in 2002. Of course the government denies it, whadaya think they tell the truth?? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Happy reading, hope you learn something.

<clips>

After twenty-seven years of withholding details about covert activities following the 1973 military coup in Chile, the CIA released a report yesterday acknowledging its close relations with General Augusto Pinochet’s violent regime. The report, “CIA Activities in Chile,” revealed for the first time that the head of the Chile’s feared secret police, DINA, was a paid CIA asset in 1975, and that CIA contacts continued with him long after he dispatched his agents to Washington D.C. to assassinate former Chilean Ambassador Orlando Letelier and his 25-year old American associate, Ronni Karpen Moffitt.

“CIA actively supported the military Junta after the overthrow of Allende,” the report states. “Many of Pinochet’s officers were involved in systematic and widespread human rights abuses....Some of these were contacts or agents of the CIA or US military.”

Among the report’s other major revelations:

Within a year of the coup, the CIA was aware of bilateral arrangements between the Pinochet regime and other Southern Cone intelligence services to track and kill opponents—arrangements that developed into Operation Condor.

The CIA made Gen. Manuel Contreras, head of DINA, a paid asset only several months after concluding that he “was the principal obstacle to a reasonable human rights policy within the Junta.” After the assassination of Orlando Letelier and Ronni Moffitt in Washington D.C., the CIA continued to work with Contreras even as “his possible role in the Letelier assassination became an issue.”

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20000919/index.html

[Beel2112]

200. I'm not arguing that the CIA had no ties to Pinochet

Nor have I ever. We're arguing over whether the coup was the doing of the Chileans or the US. All sources--including your own--point to the former (and yes, the CIA supported them).

Let's look at what you quoted:

"“CIA actively supported the military Junta after the overthrow of Allende,” the report states."

Once again you have cited something that proves my point.

But just for thoroughness, here's a link to the "“CIA Activities in Chile,” released by the CIA, September 19, 2000.", courtesy of the link you provided:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20000919/01-01.htm

"We find no information--nor did the Church Committee--that CIA or the Intelligence Community {IC} was involved in the death of Chilean President Salvadore. He is believed to have committed suicide as the coup leaders closed in on him. The major CIA effort against Allende came earlier in 1970 in the failed attempt to block his election and accession to the Presidency. Nonetheless, the US Administration's long-standing hostility to Allende and its past encouragement of a military coup against him were well known among Chilean coup plotters who eventually took action on their own to oust him."

Now let's look again at what you quoted and emphasized and juxtapose it with what the report says:

Your quote: "“CIA actively supported the military Junta after the overthrow of Allende,” ..."

Quote's source: "CIA actively supported the military Junta after the overthrow of Allende but did not assist Pinochet to assume the Presidency. In fact, many CIA officers shared broader US reservations about Pinochet's single-minded pursuit of power."
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20000919/01-02.htm (Page two of the same document cited above.)

I think your sources conclusively demostrates that yes, the Chileans were the major players in the coup and the US's role was support (in the form of money and arms). Speaking of the US's role, the answer to question 3 (same link as above):

"Many of Pinochet's officer's were involved in systematic and widespread human rights abuses following Allende's ouster. Some of these were contacts or agents of the CIA or US military. The IC followed then-current guidance for reporting such abuses and admonished its Chilean agents against such behavior. Today's much stricter reporting standards were not in force and if they were, we suspect many agents would have been dropped."

According to your source, the CIA did not condone the brutality of Pinochet's regime. I will certainly agree that it was highly unethical to tolerate it by not severing ties, however.

To reiterate: Your sources prove my point that the Chileans were the ones that staged the coup. Further, your own sources indicate that while the CIA was certainly culpable for tolerating the abuses of the Pinochet regime, they did not condone them. Your own sources indicate that I'm right.

[Say_What]

201. Kissinger and Nixon phone call 5 days after the coup is damning

>>>>>We're arguing over whether the coup was the doing of the Chileans or the US. >>>>

Predictably, you ignored post 197, which says: "It is imperative that these actions be implemented clandestinely and securely so that the USG (US government) and American hand be well hidden."

And the phone conversion between Kissinger and Nixon five days AFTER the coup, which was desclassified in 2004, confirms that quote.

<clips>
Washington D.C. May 26, 2004 - In one of his first conversations with President Richard Nixon following the bloody military coup in Chile, Henry Kissinger stated "we helped them," according to declassified transcripts of a telephone conversation obtained today by the National Security Archive. "That is right," Nixon responded.

The transcript records a call made by President Nixon to Kissinger's home on the weekend following General Augusto Pinochet's violent overthrow of the democratically elected government of Salvador Allende in Chile. Kissinger reports to the president that the new military regime was "getting consolidated" and complains that the press is "bleeding because a pro-Communist government has been overthrown." When Nixon notes that "our hand doesn't show on this one though," Kissinger responds that "We didn't do it"(referring to the coup itself). I mean we helped them….created the conditions as great as possible."

The September 16, 1973, "telcon" was found by the Archive's Chile analyst, Peter Kornbluh, among thousands of pages of transcriptions of Kissinger's telephone calls dated between 1969 and 1974, declassified today at the initiative of the Archive. Kornbluh, the author of The Pinochet File, called the new document "damning proof, in Kissinger's own words, that the Nixon administration directly contributed to creating a coup climate in Chile which made the September 11, 1973, military takeover possible."

In his confirmation hearings as Secretary of State that very week, Kissinger denied that the U.S. Government played any role whatsoever in Allende's overthrow. A year later, after details of a CIA destabilization program had leaked to the press, he again testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that "the intent of the United States was not to destabilize or to subvert ….Our concern was with the election of 1976 and not at all with a coup in 1973 about which we knew nothing and which we had nothing to do…."


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB123/chile.htm

[Beel2112]

202. Okay...

...so you quote sources saying "I mean we helped them….created the conditions as great as possible" and once again quoting Mr. Kornbluh saying "the Nixon administration directly contributed to creating a coup climate". That really shows what I've been saying all along--we aided the coup, we didn't create it. That's proof that it was the Chilean people who wanted to (and did) overthrow their government--with US help.

How do you reconcile this statement from a man (Mr. Kornbluh) you've now quoted twice with your belief that the CIA/US led the coup?

"...{the CIA} had not played a direct role in the coup."

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

203. It's called plausible deniability. The minority in this case was a

military junta. Allende won the election fair and square. He earned his chance to govern. How you keep defending this bullshit is beyond me. This was not a popular uprising. I've never heard anybody in my entire life argue such nonsense.

[Say_What]

204. "How you keep defending this bullshit is beyond me. "

The guy is no doubt unemployed with too much time on his hands. He really outta go back to posting on Mucho Sucko of Lucas Forums where he came from in the first place.

I'm done feeding the troll. If we don't feed him he'll go away ;-)

On edit. He did the same shit on a DU thread about tasers. Nothing but TrollShit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1442335#1447812


Peace!!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

207. Agreed. ..............Venceremos. n/t

[Mika]

205. And to think this thread was about Cuban Drs & teachers pay raise.

What a complete hijack of a thread. :puke:

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

206. It's partly my fault. Now back to the original topic. n/t

[Say_What]

208. Search engines are such amazing little things ;-)

No lack of hubris in this post ;-)

<clips>
Tasers–effective tool or WMD?
Posted by WhoIsJohnGalt under Politics , Human Rights , Commentary

I like to peruse both FreeRepublic and DemocraticUnderground and have an account at both (and as of this posting, have managed to not get banned from either!). One of the reasons I believe the Democrats in the US have been getting well, destroyed lately is they’ve gotten a little too…well, wimpy. This worries me as the party–again, in the US–has gotten more liberal according to this recent poll (”the centrist “New Democrats” who were key to the party’s coalition in the 1990s had all but vanished in 2004″). Where was I?

Oh yes–Tasers. My interest in this subject arose from this thread on the DU. I’ll narrow it down:
DU’ers: Tasers are killing people left and right!!! 73 people have died!!! These cops are murderers!!!
Me (beel2112): Those 73 times don’t appear to be a statistically insignificant number, given the number of times the Taser has been used. And had you bothered to read beyond the headline of your own source, you’d see the actual number is about 8, not 73.
DU’ers: *silence*


http://dianne.free.fr/index.php/tasers-effective-tool-or-wmd

DU thread he brags about in his post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1442335#1447812

[Judi Lynn]

209. Impressive seeing his boast he has outfoxed DU moderators.

We''ve seen that with Freeps who inform their fellow geniuses that they're too clever to get thrown outta here, which points out they know they deliberately work against DU'ers and view it as a challenge to cause as much disruption as possible.

Sad. It's probably the only contact they have with healthy people!

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beel2112]

210. Kicking a dead horse.

"Allende won the election fair and square."

Yes, with 36.2% of the vote, a point you all refuse to acknowledge because it thoroughly undermines the idea that he or his policies were popular.

I hate to kick the dead horse that is socialism's sad remains, but let's look at what the scholars have to say:

"The basic causes of Allende's overthrow lie elsewhere, however. They were, in my judgment: (1) eventual runaway inflation (323 percent between July 1972 and July 1973) caused not by lack of foreign assistance but by a domestic economic policy, initiated well before the steps taken by the Nixon administration in the latter part of 1971, which relied on massive printing of money to solve all economic problems {Very nice...--beel2112};14 (2) Allende's ideologically motivated policy of intensification of the class struggle, which was more effective in solidifying middle and lower middle class opposition than in broadening his worker and peasant support; (3) an Allende administration policy of circumventing the law {Circumventing law, of course, is only bad when the US does it--beel2112} through legal "loopholes" or nonenforcement of its provisions-a policy which was opposed by the Congress and a majority of the voters (56 percent in the March 1973 congressional elections) and declared illegal by the courts and the Controller; and (4) complicity in the stockpiling of arms by leftist groups, the discovery of which finally moved the Chilean armed forces to act. None of these factors would have been substantially altered by increased U.S. or international assistance.

To sum up, the economic and political policies of the Allende government were a failure, in and of themselves. Our justified horror at the excesses of the September military coup has prevented us from appreciating the enormity of that failure. For in many ways the Allende experiment was not an adequate test of whether it is possible to achieve democratic socialism-in the sense of government control and direction of basic economic activity for the benefit of low-income groups-in a less-developed country. No effort was made to persuade the competing Chilean interest groups of the necessity for self-restraint and austerity in order to achieve economic independence. Allende's coalition politics were plagued by his fear of alienating the left wing of his own Socialist Party, and so, except for the adoption of the copper nationalization amendment, he never attempted to broaden his support by an appeal to nationalism ("I am not president of all Chileans"). As the experiences of Peru and the United Arab Republic (to name but two cases) have demonstrated, defiance of international corporations and foreign governments need not lead to economic or political collapse. The Allende policy, however, which combined inflation with deliberate class polarization, was a formula for disaster.

The lesson, if there is one, in the relations between the United States and the Allende government is that a government which is determined to nationalize U.S. companies without compensation and to carry out an internal program which effectively destroys its ability to earn foreign exchange cannot expect to receive a subsidy to do so from either the U.S. government or from U.S. private banks. It may, however, receive some assistance from other countries either for political (aid to a fellow "socialist" country) or economic (encouragement of exports) reasons-at least for a time. What it cannot do is blame all its problems on foreign imperialists and their domestic allies, and ignore elementary principles of economic rationality and effective political legitimacy in its internal policies. No amount of foreign assistance can be a substitute for these, and no amount of foreign subversion or economic pressure can destroy them if they exist."

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19740101faessay10095-p40/paul-e-sigmund/the-invisible-blockade-and-the-overthrow-of-allende.html
Author's CV:
http://webdb.princeton.edu/dbtoolbox/query.asp?qname=vWebPage&NetID=psigmund

"The Allende government's economic policies were an almost unmitigated disaster. With the exception of an interesting and positive experiment made during the first year of the administration, these policies were negative and generated Chile's worst economic crisis in its entire history as an independent country.

The economic disaster was multidimensional. Before the end of the regime, production was declining precipitously, investments were severely curtailed, savings were all but nonexistent, levels of living of the masses were as low as or lower than they had been when Allende took office, shortages were all but universal. Most striking of all, inflation had become completely uncontrollable, running at more than 300 percent a year, with the prices increasing more and more each day.

The political consequences of the economic situation were equally disastrous. The economic catastrophe further polarized the population and created a widespread atmosphere of desperation. As we shall see, the economic failure did not itself bring down the Allende government, but it helped create a "prerevolutionary" atmosphere which strained Chile's hitherto sturdy political democracy to the breaking point."
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=42393191
About the author: http://www2.scc.rutgers.edu/ead/manuscripts/alexanderb.html

How about that, huh?

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Say_What]

197. Project FUBELT and Documents, DECLASSIFED in 2000

The Church Report is ancient history and proven WRONG by the later declassified docs. What is it about declassified docs that you don't understand? I posted some declassified docs about Project FUBELT earlier that prove the US invovlement in Chile, but of course you conventiently ignored them like the good little troll you are.

Kid, get yourself an education. What you don't know about Latin America and your own government is a lot.

<clips>

Now, on the 30th anniversary of the coup, professors, journalists and citizen activists around the world are continuing to expose the full role of the US government in financing and promoting this bloody coup, which ushered in the 17-year military dictatorship headed by General Augusto Pinochet.

...The top secret documents accumulatively detail the crude workings of Washington during the Cold War. "It is firm and continuing policy that Allende be overthrown by a coup," reads a CIA document from October 1970. "It is imperative that these actions be implemented clandestinely and securely so that the USG (US government) and American hand be well hidden."

...Just weeks after the coup, the US ambassador in Chile sent a memo to Henry Kissinger noting that "the military government of Chile requires adviser assistance of a person qualified in establishing a detention centre for the detainees ... adviser must have knowledge in the establishment and operation of a detention centre".

Even when the full extent of the torture and executions in Chile were well known, the US government sought to integrate the Pinochet regime into international business circles.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/chile/story/0,13755,1038615,00.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<clips>

** CIA memoranda and reports on "Project FUBELT"--the codename for covert operations to promote a military coup and undermine Allende's government. The documents, including minutes of meetings between Henry Kissinger and CIA officials, CIA cables to its Santiago station, and summaries of covert action in 1970, provide a clear paper trail to the decisions and operations against Allende's government

** National Security Council strategy papers which record efforts to "destabilize" Chile economically, and isolate Allende's government diplomatically, between 1970 and 1973.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

[Lilith Velkor]

170. OT: Star Trek irony

In the Star Trek universe, Earth has abandoned the concept of money, and its people get all the stuff they need with replicator technology.

There is one culture (the Ferengi) that still embraces capitalism, but they are portrayed as primitive and ridiculous.

See the irony here?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

171. Get out of here with that space commie crap ;-). n/t

[Lilith Velkor]

172. *sigh* The term is space socialist.

The Borg are space commies.

;) :P

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

176. LOL. That was good. n/t

[Vladimir]

167. Hey, long time no see my friend

how you doing? :hi:

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

168. Not bad, not bad at all.

Although, I shouldn't be at work and trolling at the same time. It causes spelling errors and poor sentence structure. ;)

[Vladimir]

169. LOL! n/t

[foo_bar]

121. best. site. ever.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=70297

Q: How many Federation shuttles at maximum warp does it take to ram into a Star Destroyer at maximum warp and destroy it? Can the Star Destroyer detect and destroy the incoming shuttles before they hit? What would happen, and what would a combat situation like that look like?

1) *Yawns*. More than the UFP can possibly produce. What makes you think those shuttles are in any way, shape or form a threat to an ISD?

2) Warp has a mass-lightening effect, so in actuality it would be better if they hit at sublight because at warp they'd have like zero mass.

3) More then the entire alpha quadrant can produce I believe.

4) It would take 129630 shuttles to take down the shields. And maybe a further 10 to destroy the ISD its self.

[AlphaCentauri]

116. Does it mean, We've been through 3.5 million years of evolution and

capitalism without eradicating poverty?

[UCSBLiberalCat53]

74. hmmm

and CEO salaries are the ones that skyrocket here.

[Judi Lynn]

83. Not another label-flinging "dictator-humper" accuser on deck. Jeez.

I thought we saw the last one disappear into the mist....

Oh, well, back to work.http://www.trollshop.net.nyud.net:8090/trolls/werensk_s.gif

[Judi Lynn]

131. Excellent open letter from Green Left to Amnesty USA on "dissidents"

CUBA: A letter to Amnesty USA


The following letter was sent to Amnesty USA by Australian academic Tim Anderson on March 22.

I write as an Australian prisoners' rights campaigner who has been watching Amnesty's interventions over the arrests and jailing of several dozen “dissidents” in Cuba over the past two years. I have also visited Cuba on two occasions.

I note that Amnesty USA has termed all the 75 arrested in March 2003 as “prisoners of conscience”, that it has a campaign urging “Cuban authorities to drop politically motivated charges”, saying that these people were “dissidents ... for the peaceful expression of their beliefs”, and that most “were subjected to hasty and manifestly unfair trials”.

However, after reading more on the subject, a number of serious questions occur to me about Amnesty's campaign and I would like you to respond to these concerns.

First, how is it that Amnesty repeatedly calls all those arrested in March 2003 (and some thereafter) “prisoners of conscience detained solely for the peaceful exercising of his rights to freedom of expression and association”? Surely Amnesty is aware that the charges and convictions against most have been for acting “in the interests of a foreign state” to harm the Cuban state and to pursue a “blockade and economic war” against the Cuban people? Does Amnesty say that such offences cannot be crimes? This is not clear from Amnesty literature.

Second, do you not think that Amnesty's expressed concerns about trial process and prison conditions for prisoners in Cuba might be taken more seriously if you acknowledged that the charges laid do actually relate to crimes?

Third, should you not acknowledge that the crimes with which these people were charged are closely linked to the sustained and dangerous campaign carried out by the government of your own country? This campaign has included deadly armed attacks on civilians, bombings of hotels, assassination attempts, an internationally condemned economic blockade, diplomatic activity well beyond the bounds of international norms, and the 1996 Helms-Burton law, which finances efforts to overthrow the Cuban system of government. Do the serious human rights implications of this campaign mean nothing to Amnesty USA?

It is hard to imagine that the US government would not have acted with the full force of its own law if small groups of people in the USA were receiving money from a foreign power, as parties to a campaign which had the explicit aim of overthrowing its government and constitutional system. Even more incredible would be the US government's failure to act if these small groups were funded and backed by foreign organisations who had participated in terrorist bombings and assassination attempts against the US head of state.

Yet as we know from evidence in the Havana trials, many of these “dissidents” were receiving funds from the Cuban American National Foundation, as well as the US Mission in Havana. In September 1999, a special rapporteur for the United Nations Human Rights Commission confirmed that the CANF had financed and organized the bombing of tourist hotels in Varadero and Havana, over April-October 1997. We also know that CIA-trained and CANF-backed personnel, including Luis Posada, were amongst those arrested and jailed in Panama in 2000, for an aborted attempt on the life of President Fidel Castro. Posada had been previously jailed for the 1976 bombing of a Cuban passenger plane, which killed 73 people. In the late 1990s he confessed to planning the Havana bombings. Yet he and his associates were pardoned and released on “humanitarian” grounds in 2004, by outgoing Panamanian President Mireya Moscoso. There was no word of protest from Washington.

The activities of those financially and organisationally engaged with these violent campaigns cannot be considered in a vacuum. No independent analyst would regard those clearly connected to such operations simply as “prisoners of conscience ... the peaceful expression of their beliefs”. As the former CIA agent Philip Agee says: “To think that the dissidents were created by an independent, free civil society is absurd, for they were funded and controlled by a hostile foreign power”.

I agree that human rights’ campaigners have a right to express concerns about some aspects of the trial process in this case. However I don't think these concerns can be taken seriously unless and until those broader concerns I raised are addressed.

Does Amnesty USA share any of my concerns? Are you not concerned that Amnesty's reputation will be damaged if it is seen to ignore these broader and more serious human rights concerns, and to reflect only the arguments of an aggressive US State Department?

I write this letter in the hope of a fuller discussion of this important issue, amongst those many people who do share genuine concerns for the rights of prisoners everywhere.

From Green Left Weekly, April 13, 2005.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2005/622/622p16.htm

[Judi Lynn]

136. I have to wonder what this means. Does this info. compromise

A-I's objectivity, by chance?

"FCF collaborates with Amnesty International..."

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/whatdone.html

(Free Cuba Foundation membership is comprised of Cuban anti-Castro exiles' children.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The long range goal of ASPA 66 is to merge with a local Amnesty International support group and to promote Cuba's political prisoner rights.

http://cuban-exile.com/doc_001-025/doc0005.html

This group is a student auxiliary to ALPHA 66:

Alpha 66 was found by Andres Nazario Sargen and Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo in 1961. Since its early establishment the organization has retained a militaristic philosophy and has professed the violent overthrow of Cuba's revolutionary government.

The organization has utilized Cuban exile donations as funding for their Cuban incursions. A large percentage of its original members participated in the failed Bay of Pigs invasion.
(snip)

They are also easily recognized as a terrorist organization.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I started activity against Castro when I was 13 and still in Cuba," says Gladys Perez, 53, a banker and a volunteer for Amnesty International. When a communist militiaman came to Perez's Catholic school and shoved a nun out of the way, Perez fought back, jumping on his back and attacking him. "The officials then ordered the nuns to kick me out of school. Later I joined a secret group that would go out with crayons and write anti-government slogans on walls at night. It was dangerous. Finally, my parents sent me here to this country."

Perez later became a fire-breathing, anti-Castro activist, hooking up with the agenda-setting Cuban American National Foundation and other exile political organizations. "I demonstrated and picketed. I was very conservative and very intolerant to anyone who didn't think like me," she says. "I saw it from the inside. The people who run things in the exile movement are really a very small group."

Then, in 1997, after becoming disillusioned with the conservative hard-line, Perez decided to visit Cuba. "What I did there was meet with dissidents," she remembers, speaking of anti-Castro activists on the island. "They sounded much different than I did. They were fighting for democracy but were much more moderate. The foundation had always said that many of these people were Castro agents, but I could see that wasn't true. I understood that the effort they were making was the one that mattered most."

Perez told no one of her change in sympathies -- at least not at first. "I didn't come out of the closet immediately," she says. But she quietly began supporting the dissident cause, helping to raise money and later as a member of Amnesty International to try to draw international attention to the plight of people imprisoned in Cuba for their political beliefs.
(snip/...)

http://dir.salon.com/news/feature/2000/04/07/movement/index.html

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ This Amnesty member is either dumb as mud, or she's concealing her knowledge "dissidents" are mostly U.S. funded, something our own country would NOT allow here, were the situation reversed. It's against our laws for people to be sponsored by foreign governments and work against us. At any rate, she's another Amnesty member. Not so objective. (I'm positive her silly child's tale of jumping on a soldier's back to avenge the honor of a shoved nun is pure bunk. A poorly conceived whopper.)

[Beel2112]

152. Ooooookaaayy....

Let's look at what that collaboration is:

"On March 29, 1999 the Free Cuba Foundation co-sponsors an International Human Rights Film Festival with Amnesty International-FIU, Association of People of African Ancestry and Culture , and Students for a Free Tibet. "

"FCF collaborates with Amnesty International, Students for a Free Tibet, and SOC to present a Human Rights Film Series throughout the Fall '98 semester."

"On March 23, 1997 FCF participates in the Amnesty International Human Rights Fair at FIU."

So let's see...corroboration on two film "festivals" and participation in their Human Rights Fair. You actually think that invalidates AI's reports on Cuba's human rights? Does this information compromise the Association of People of African Ancestry and Culture, the Students for a Free Tibet, and the SOC (whatever they are...), who worked alongside the FCF? (No, of course not.) What about HRW's (and other organizations') corroborating reports? No offense, but this reeks of desperation...

[Mika]

137. This thread was about Cuba raising salaries to Drs and teachers

Nice hijack job w/the Marxism/Star Wars/Star Trek swill.

Again, Cuba is not Marxist - it is socialist.


I guess that one could deduce by reading this thread that the Cuba antagonists think that a national program raising Drs and teachers salaries is a bad thing.

Funny, because so many DUers decry the lack of good teacher salaries and the cutting of ed and health care dollars by the repukes is reprehensible in the US, but when Cuba does the opposite and increases funding it is reprehensible also, and represents some sort of a failure of their system.
:wtf: :crazy:




Another shot of "crumbling" Havana

[CanSocDem]

160. I'm sure they are just confused.

After all, how could a school system that pays its' teachers $24 a year be so much more successful.

Proof of that success is the ability of the school system to recognize and promote the value of literacy, health and public interest OVER the corporate molding that goes on in a capitalist school system.

NOT wanting an SUV, bigger than your neighbors can only be some kind of mental illness....

[Bhaisahab]

187. best post on this thread. welcome to DU CanSocDem n/t

[Judi Lynn]

213. Gorgeous photos, Mika.From the same people who can keep those vintage cars

plying the streets all these years later!

Cuba had to put first things first, and get food, shelter, medicine, education to the vast majority of people who had been left to depend on the seasonal work in the fields, and other low-paying jobs.

Wouldn't it be fantastic to see a PLAN in action in our own country? (I mean a plan which HELPS the American people.)

[anarchy1999]

163. To Mika and Judi, THANK YOU! This is a most amazing, informative thread.

It's taken me long over an hour and I'm still only halfway through it.

We're ready to float a boat. (have been for quite some time)


Thanks again to the two of you!