U.S. Apache helicopter down in Iraq - military

[Olive]

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A U.S. Apache attack helicopter crashed in Iraq on Monday, a U.S. military spokesman said.
"We had a helicopter crash northwest of Taji," Lieutenant Colonel Cliff Kent, spokesman for the 3rd Infantry Division said, referring to a major airbase north of Baghdad.

He said an investigation was underway. It had not yet been determined whether there were casualties aboard the AH-64 helicopter, which carries a crew of two, Kent said.

Local people said they saw one of a pair of helicopters crash out of the sky just north of Baghdad. They said it was not clear whether the helicopter had been fired upon.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/GRA730892.htm

[lebkuchen]

1. Did Americans bargain for 15 years of this?

I think not.

[ClintonTyree]

2. No, but....

our steadfast, "war hero" pretzlenit never cared what Americans thought anyway. He was going to have his grudge war no matter what the public thought because he's the kind of guy that has to make those "hard decisions". The giggling murder monkey takes his orders from "the man above" and judging by bush's actions, "the man above" wants georgie to kill Muslims and steal their resources. I think the monkey may be a bit confused about those voices in his head.

[tabasco]

7. And the loyal followers of the Great War President ...

hail him as a True Christian as he rains death on the innocent People of Iraq.

[VegasWolf]

34. But that is a true christian, look at the land grabs of the Catholic

Crusades. There is a long glorius history here folks.

[pointless]

3. inch away

I was an inch away from becoming an Army Warrant Officer about 7 years ago. I wanted to fly Apache's. I was not very interested in the military, I just wanted to fly and that was a way to get free flight training and be able to fly the most advanced helicopter on the planet.

Technology and flight fascinate me. I'm planning on going back to college to get a degree in aeronautical engineering.

[Massachusetts]

9. "I'm planning on going back to college to get a degree"

FOCUS on that, you will be more valuable to OUR country and economy, as an Aeronautical Engineer than a target in the NEOCON Shooting Gallery.IMO

[Herkdrvr]

47. Most pilots have degrees

Even most warrant officers these days have some kind of college education.

[WhiteTara]

30. glad you missed out

and welcome to DU
:hi:

[Tesha]

4. Golly, how awful. But at least our "Mission" was "Accomplished". (NT)

[Crunchy Frog]

5. Two fatalities from that according to icasualties,

and it looks like the helicopter was shot down.

A Task Force Liberty soldier has also been killed.

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/Releases/June/050627e.htm

That's 1742 now. Has the mission been accomplished to a satisfactory degree yet?

[leftchick]

6. Shot down all right...

pretty brazen too....

Meanwhile, a US Army AH-64 Apache attack helicopter, carrying two pilots, crashed in a field and burst into flames at about 11.45am in al-Mashahda, 30km north of the capital. There were no immediate reports of casualties.

Iraqi journalist Ziyad al-Samarai told Aljazeera the the aircraft was hit by a rocket in the farm-rich area.

The journalist said a meeting of officials was being held in al-Mashahda police station at the time and US military vehicles and helicopters had surrounded the area to protect the meeting place.

Al-Samarai reported that the rocket directly hit the helicopter and downed it immediately, adding that columns of smoke could be seen rising from the crash scene as US forces sealed off the area

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/53DA7AA7-1BA7-42EC-B51A-2083A5CCCF8F.htm

[Massachusetts]

11. It seems

that the terrawrists have upgraded from the RPG's.

May GOD bless the crew and their families.




HOW MUCH MONEY DID WE MAKE TODAY?

[saigon68]

16. That's one ugly SCUMBAG War Criminal

[Skittles]

40. THAT'S TWO UGLY SCUMBAG WAR CRIMINALS

SHE SUPPORTS HIS EVIL ASS

[Massacure]

29. Its not hard to hit a helicopter with an RPG.

Helicopters usually fly pretty low to the ground, especially when using their machine guns.

[northzax]

36. an apache? not an easy target

RPGs are not all that accurate, especially when you're firing up, they really don't have an effectice range beyon about 150 meters, and that takes some good training and a stationary target. Apaches are small and quick, that would actually be a hell of a shot, roughly equivalent to hitting a seagull from 50 yards with a slingshot, it can be done, but only by someone with lots of practice.

[Herkdrvr]

45. How much practice have you had?

Hitting an Apache with an RPG isn't any more difficult than hitting a tank with one. Apaches don't always fly around at 150 knots...they often sit in a hover.

[northzax]

49. by very definition

it is harder to hit something above you. And it seems unlikely to me that any helo would be hovering over hostile territory (the white house may not admit it's hostile, but the people there surely do) if it can avoid it.

While I am not denying that it is possible, if it was done, it means we are fighting people with a higher level of training than simply newly-enrolled insurgents. that's not a good thing.

[Jane Austin]

12. How depressing.

They can't even hold a meeting in a small city without US air cover?

That doesn't sound like "we're winning".

[Ripley]

8. Yet CNN's homepage has this for a TOP STORY...

"Internet Transforms Modern Life."

:argh:

Does anyone in Congress ever ask how much money (and blood)this is gonna cost for 12 more years of the dying throes?

[endarkenment]

22. In real dollars?

80-120B/yr * 12 years is around 1T giver or take a 100B.

Or to put it another way: more than enough to fix up medicare.

[rainbow4321]

26. Typical of MSM.....

[Roland99]

10. So, I'm assuming a news chopper went down in Houston, too?

Where's that news?


Or is Tom DeLay just as batshit crazy as commander Cuckoo Bananas?




(BTW, that was a rhetorical question ;) )

[dArKeR]

13. U.S. Helicopter Crashes North of Baghdad - Yahoo

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050627/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AjuSYrU9Ct2nvDPZXSNN.Eis0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

503 Votes, 2.3 Stars, 25 minutes - Tell me this isn't the NSA Blackbox on the ISP voting!!!

Yahoo also shows that I've rated this breaking story which I swear to God I have NOT!!!!!

[Roland99]

14. Damn freepers have tanked that article already down to 2 1/2 stars

They don't give two shits about our soldiers dying over there. All they care about is their Bush-God saving face.

The article was posted *27 minutes ago* and already 500+ votes?? Oh, there's definitely something organized afoot.

Fucking assholes.

[dArKeR]

15. This is something new, it's not Freepers. You can tell by scanning other

Yahoo stories which one can easily categorize as Pro aWol and Anti aWol. Other Anti aWol stories do NOT have the type of ratings which happens to "bad news from Iraq". It's ONLY the "bad news from Iraq" stories which get hit like this. You into your own habits/hearts. When you open the Yahoo page you'll see 2-4 stories which you'll rate probably all the same. If a typical Media Whore propaganda story about Bush Adm, Rumsfeld, Lice, Rove you'll rate it One Star. You'll do all 2-4 which are up at the time. A Freeper is the same but from the Dark Side of the Force. They'll rate ALL Bush Adm. stories a 5 Star and anything hurting Bush a 1 Star. Well this isn't happening statically for all the current stories up. (I know Freepers. They'd rate all 2-4 stories at the same time.) Only the bad news, deaths from Iraq have these instant high vote counts, in 2 to 15 minutes with One to Two Star ratings.

It's the NSA Blackbox on the ISPs rating these stories. Just like aWol having a secret ear piece/transmitter during the debates, I can feel it in my bones!

[mbperrin]

17. Whoa! They must not have gotten the memo!

Never crash, they're just "hard landings", and nothing has EVER been shot down, just "possible mechanical trouble."

Paging Alberto Gonzales: someone's violating policy; be sure not to cause major organ failure!

[whatever4]

18. Another morning, another story of death

And so I have to say, I really appreciate the strongly condemning tone ya'll put out over this. The rich sarcasm helps, somehow. In fact, it probably helps more than I convey, it helps me quickly put a difficult to take story in perspective, before I have to time to worry to it's logical conclusion of horrors and more horrors. Helps :)

Know what else numbs my mind? Now that we've made ourselves look so terribly bad (not us here, of course, but the general US us), any other nation or terrorist group that might have been the slightest bit inclined to lend support to Iraq (Iraq or should I say insurgents? Does anyone really know?) might now believe it's a good idea, an *ethical* assistance, in fact. It's a no win situation; even if we continue to find their weapons caches, it might not be enough. Our side is not the popular one with anyone but us. Shootings like this, with perhaps shoulder to air missiles, make me think these thoughts. They naturally outnumber our troops already.

Going with that, it reminds me of I've been saying (okay, to myself a lot, but still) all along, that the US may be a super power and may be strong enough "take on" any nation...but not ALL other nations. Even just a select group of them could easily overpower us, in any way in which "power" is measured. I've read at least 4 stories now of international meetings and conferences where the US has been condemned by heads of other nations.

Not their gossip columns. Not their editorials or even their representatives, but their government heads. With the support of *their* people on the issue. So, what happens if they decide to actively DO something about the problem. The problem that is us? The words they say aren't mildly condemning, some are very strong.

And it reminds me of the other thing I've been saying; no one will stand with us. At this point, with world opinon and the stories of what the US has done, even if were WERE in the "right"...we'd still be begging for an assist. But with what we've done? We don't have a "right" leg to stand on, our injustice is world famous. We'll be laughed at.

There will be the US, seen as abusive the world over, economically hanging by a thread and at risk to it's debtors. A newly bloodied bully, shown to be more bewildered than evil, but mostly, left stumbling and weakened. Weak military. Weak support of our government by the people; we don't even trust these people, polls indicate now. Weak social structures of health care, housing, employment, food and even child rearing (daycare, schools, prisons). Weak reputation with not just some other nations, but most, regardless of their political systems. The blame for global warming is also on us, in the eyes of many. Anything done to us could be seen as justifiable. And the threat of terrorism? It moves up a notch, to plain old war, in which our side was weakened before it started.

There we will be, ripe for the pickings. And other nations already jealous of our standard of living and resources hogging; how much help will we get, or deserve? Care to wonder if the neocons shall profit from the carnage? I think it's time Americans started seeing themselves for what we really are, which is paupers. We are poor now.

People think wars are about "good" and "evil", and forget wars are about MONEY.

[whatever4]

19. To illustrate my point,

This recent story.

http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,15734656%255E421,00.html

Students quit over anti-US slurs
By Ainsley Pavey
26jun05

AMERICAN students are quitting Queensland universities in the face of hate attacks by Australians angry at US President George W. Bush and the war in Iraq.

One university has launched an investigation into claims an American student returned to the US after suffering six months of abuse at a residential college in Brisbane.

American students have told The Sunday Mail the verbal attacks are unbearable and threatening to escalate into physical violence.

Griffith University student Ian Wanner, 19, from Oregon, said abusive Australian students had repeatedly called him a "sepo" – short for septic tank. "It is so disrespectful. It's not exactly the most welcoming atmosphere here," he said.

The Queensland Anti-Discrimination Commission has described the abuse as "horrible" and says it could be classed as racial vilification.

[Skittles]

42. I think there must be more to this story

I'm betting these students are bush / war supporters

[Halliburton]

20. Wha?

Don't worry, I just looked up throes in the dictionary and it does say that throes can contain violence. So nothing to be too alarmed about. Just continue supporting our Commander-In-Chief as he steers us to victory!

[pie]

21. What kind of rocket was used?

[northzax]

24. it is an interesting question

Apaches are not easy to shoot down with small arms fire, I suppose a Stinger would get one, or a really lucky RPG shot, I mean really lucky. More probably it crashed due to mechanical failure or pilot error. But does it really matter how it went down? (yes, I think so, actually, if the insurgents have portable surface to air missiles, it makes the geopolitical situation a little more interesting, but still) whether it was a sandstorm, a missile or a broken rod, it's still more lives wasted.

[pie]

31. Just wondering if new weapons are emerging

[cliss]

32. Yes, we definitely need to find out

what is causing these helis to go down. We've lost an amazing number of helicopters in Iraq and Afghanistan. Why is this important?

a) if it's operator failure, the Pentagon needs to get these people trained, pronto. They need to pick people with 20/20 eyesight, who are able to operate these aircraft safely. Each heli is worth what? $30 million. They're not Tonka toys. Our treasury is hemorrhaging right now.

b) if it's faulty helis, the Pentagon needs to get back to General Dynamics or Boeing and sue their asses, ASAP. There's no excuse for faulty equipment.

c) if the helis are being shot down, they need to admit it and figure out some way to deal with this. At this rate, any Americans who step inside a helicopter are taking their lives into their hands. Iraqis score a double bulls-eye when they take one down: massive $$dollar losses, and they kill several Americans for the price of one.

I suspect it's b) and c). I believe helis are poor quality due to crony contracts and bad quality control. And, I believe the Iraqis are getting tutoring help with their shoulder-fired missiles.

[northzax]

33. ok

I suppose that helos crash. they are incredibly fragile machines, that require everything to work perfectly every time. In addition, they were designed to be used over Europe, in the Desert, everything mechanical breaks, it just does. You know what a helo with a mechanical failure is? a brick. They were designed to last for only a few minutes over the battlefields of Europe, to kill one or two tanks quickly, and then they were expected to be destroyed.

There is no real evidence, that I am aware of, that there are any Stingers (the only shoulder fired missiles ever mass produced, the neither the Soviets nor the Israelis, the other two sources of weapons, developed one) in Iraq.

[daleo]

37. Things changed for the Soviets when their helicopters began being hit

In Afghanistan, courtesy of U.S. supplied weaponry. So, it is always an interesting question.

[Barrett808]

38. See this thread on missiles

US "Fireballs" Threaten Iraqi Flora (collective punishment)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1523035#top

Karmakaze sez:

it is likely that the modern MANPAD (MAN Portable Air Defence) missiles in use in Iraq are every bit as effective as the first generation Stinger, if not more so.

The resistence is most likely armed with a significant supply of SA-14 Strela-3 missiles, or at worst the SA-7 Strela-2. These missiles are most effective against helicopters but can also target low flying fixed wing aircraft.

Some good information regarding these weapons can be found at GlobalSecurity.org

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1523035#1523570

[Herkdrvr]

46. This isn't a secret

There have been many incidents within Iraq regarding RPGs (Rocket Propelled Grenades) and shoulder-launched missiles (mostly SA-7/14 types). This has been going on since day 1 of the conflict. There are tactics in place to minimize/limit losses already, and the crews know what they need to do.

As for the quality of aircraft...US-built aircraft are built very well. Whether or not Lockheed, Boeing, et al makes a killing financially is irrelevant. The bottom line is no one makes aircraft better than the US. The Europeans are getting better, but they still lag in certain respects. Russian equipment really is bottom of the barrel, despite certain technological advances. Quality is the ONLY reason why many of America's aircraft are still flying after 30, 40 or even 50 years after entering service.

[Barrett808]

48. When I was at AFROTC field training in 1986, I flew a T-37...

...that was older than I was. I think the commissioning plate said it was built in 1963.

[rainbow4321]

23. Pilots perish in Iraq chopper crash

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/world/stories/062805dnintiraqrdp.4dddc024.html


U.S. Apache attack helicopter crashed Monday north of Baghdad, killing both pilots, a day after a series of suicide attacks left nearly three dozen people dead in northern Iraq.

The AH-64 crashed in Mishahda, 20 miles north of the capital, and was in flames on the ground, an Associated Press reporter at the scene said. The two pilots were killed in the crash, which is still under investigation, said Lt. Col. Clifford Kent, spokesman for the 3rd Infantry Division.

<snip>

In Baghdad, two people were killed when a roadside bomb exploded near a police patrol at Antar Square in the northern Azamiyah neighborhood, police 1st Lt. Mohammed al-Hayali said.


The attack came hours after three suicide bombers struck a police headquarters, an army base and a hospital around Mosul on Sunday, killing 33 people in a setback to efforts to rebuild the northern city's police force that was riven by intimidation from insurgents seven months ago.



http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_HELICOPTER_CRASH?SITE=TXDAM&TEMPLATE=IRAQHEADS.html&SECTION=HOME

A U.S. military helicopter crashed in a field north of Baghdad Monday morning, witnesses and the U.S. military said. There were no immediate reports of casualties.

The helicopter went down in Mishahda, 20 miles north of the capital, an Associated Press reporter at the scene said. The helicopter was in flames on the ground.

The military confirmed that a Task Force Baghdad helicopter crashed around 11 a.m. northwest of Baghdad.

Heavy gunfire was heard at the time of the crash, and white smoke billowed from the helicopter before it burst into flames and slammed into the ground, the AP reporter said. Gunfire was also heard after the crash.

[leftchick]

27. notice "crash"

can't let the ameriKans know it was shot down now can we?

[northzax]

28. who said it was shot down?

Al-Jazeera?

[Minstrel Boy]

43. What if it did?

CNN say it wasn't? What's the diff? Oh yeah - credibility. Who do you think has more of it?

[northzax]

44. I don't trust CNN very much

but I certainly don't trust al-Jazeera that way I don't trust FOX.

[Supersedeas]

35. hard werk for Chickenhawks amounts to deadly work for our bravest

and brightest...may they rest in peace.

[assclown_bush]

25. I just hate the "war pReznit"

I JUST HATE HATE HATE THE "WAR PREZNIT"!!!!

ASSCLOWNBUSH

[paula777]

39. Well the article you linked says 'Two Casualties' RIP

[deadparrot]

41. So sad.

I suppose the best thing you could say about this is thank god the helicopter didn't carry any more than two.

Two is still two too many, but still...