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lindashaw Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:24 PM
Original message
State Department Protests Televangelist's Remark --(This is unbelievable)
Edited on Thu Oct-09-03 05:30 PM by lindashaw
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&e=3&u=/nm/20031009/pl_nm/people_robertson_dc

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The State Department has protested to televangelist Pat Robertson about his "despicable" suggestion that someone blow up the department with a nuclear bomb, an official said on Thursday.

Robertson, a former presidential candidate, made the remark in an interview with Joel Mowbray, author of a new book entitled "Dangerous Diplomacy: How the State Department Endangers America's Security."

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher, asked to comment, said on Thursday: "I lack sufficient capabilities to express my disdain. ... I think the very idea is despicable."

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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Typical of Smiley
Nice Christian remark, eh?
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
61. Brang 'em ON !!!
another great comment.
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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. When you read the story, Please RATE it a "5"
Keep it at the top of the highest rated page on Yahoo. Please come back and report its current rating as well as how high it is currently on "highest rated." It's currently the #1 article, but a big freeper/fundie turnout at yahoo could push it off the page.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. And he's not considered a "terrorist"...?
I mean, such remarks should land him and his cronies in some VERY hot
water for contemplating such things.
Double-standards...you gotta love'em. :eyes:
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. I can't get the link
the combined parts are working for me either.
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lindashaw Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I fixed it, sorry
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. link here
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&e=3&u=/nm/20031009/pl_nm/people_robertson_dc

you have given the news article State Department Protests Televangelist's Remark a rating of 5.
Its current average rating is 4.25 with 75 vote(s).
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. and if they had done it, Fallwell would blame the gays...
and everyone would be happy :puke:
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
68. Speaking of which, Pat's shade of lipstick is just fabulous.
Boy, doesn't he have the thin-to-almost-non-existent reptile lips, á la bush? The eyes are dead, too. And the right one droops just like Ashcroft's (key Twilight Zone music).

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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. See if this link works better:
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. clickable link
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. Hey TrogL
How do you change a link into words? I've been trying to find the program that does that. Thanks.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Sorry - check the HTML lookup table
Edited on Thu Oct-09-03 06:31 PM by hatrack
It's just above the subject box on the posting template.
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I'm sorry...I still don't get it
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Works okay for me
I use netscape. Try it-
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #39
66. like this:
[lnk:URL|CLICK ME]

note I turned off the html here, so just type as I did.  
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donotpassgo Donating Member (867 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. Interesting quote...
According to the network's Web site, Mowbray's book "exposes the mixed allegiances, hidden agendas...found in the State Department."

Oh, you mean DIPLOMACY. Who needs THAT?



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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. Wow, isn't it illegial
Edited on Thu Oct-09-03 05:35 PM by DoYouEverWonder
to make threats or to advocate violence against the US Government?

If anyone of us ever said such a thing around here, this site would be shut down in a NY minute and the poster would be heading for Guantanamo.

I wanna see Robertson doing the perp walk for this one.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Only when a Liberal, Democrat or Progressive does it
Jesus' Bestest Buddies get a pass.

--bkl
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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
51. You took the words right out of my mouth.
I wonder how fast the FBI would be at the door if anyone else had the temerity to say this publically?
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ReadTomPaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
53. I had the same reaction.
Assuming there will be an America tommorrow, I wonder how we're going to explain this all in future decades.
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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
12. i was channel surfing the other day
and he was interviewing Bork... so in a fit of masochism i stopped. At one point, he said something to the effect of 'so these supreme court justices - there's just no way to get rid of them...' There was a sense of the 'we prayed for god to solve the problem - how can we take care of it ourselves' to the comment. Even Bork wouldn't take the bait.

Pat isn't the scary one - its all the people who agree with him. There's a sickness in this country and I dont know how we're going to cure it.


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snippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. "There's a sickness in this country." I agree.
People like Robertson need to be marginalized so that politicians stop pandering to them. Whistle Ass needs to be forced to either denounce the Reich wing fundamentalists or to announce his agreement with them.

For twenty years the republican party has had an extremely well funded and well organized strategy to define the democratic party as extremist in its liberal values. This strategy is followed in every election whether for city council, state legislature, governor or Congress. As a result, it is much easier to persuade independent voters not to vote for a democrat.

The democrats need to define the republican party as controlled by the Reich wing fundamentalists.
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piece sine Donating Member (931 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. yeah but...
there's a lot of Wall Streets that have a distinctively different agenda and far more power then the fundies. Far more. Wall Street tolerates an cold, hard marriage of covenience with the fundies. But at the end the day, fundies walk and wall street talks.

As for self-flagalating Pat Robertson, he's turning-off everybody with that vile, hideous vision. That imagry isn't fit for public discourse unless the speaker is on a scratchy videotape smuggled to Al jazzera from northwest Pakistan.



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snippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. I don't see Wall Street as a danger to the country or the world.
I do see the increasing power and influence of the Reich wing fundamentalists as a danger to the country and the world.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. so do i. but the emphasis on the assumed FACT that Wall Street defines
the financial Health is absurd ! all those guys do is buy off the government to regulate small business competition out of business. economic Health should be relative to how many productive small busisness..the government defines "Small business as any making under $2,000,000 gross amually... I'm talking about those and smaller family business. I tried to start a little business and my adviser said i would be making only 6% of retail after taxes... the big corporations have the better write offs, etc. It isn't a level playing field.. Corporate jobs are finite, personal business is limited only to your creativity, and tax laws. Corporations create micro trade deficit, money is taken out of communities to the corperation... creating poverty, which was subsidized by welfare and food stamps. Corporate created welfare was then determined evil..now the system is festering. local business keeps the money in the community and actually "creates" money because it gets spent several times being spent back and fourth many times, a corporate dollar is worthless than a 10th that of a local dollar.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. Unfortunately some people listen to and buy
into this old fools ramblings. Sedition is a high crime.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
14. anyone else would have been taken downtown for questioning


he's a threat to our security
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. they won't question him. it would get the fundies all twisted
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
69. An Imam would be under the jail
facing terrorism charges.
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
15. Don't forget a few months ago a guy was arrested for quoting the Bible,
in reference to the "burning bush"...
:grr:
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
42. No, it was just a bad joke
Something about giving Bush a Tabasco sauce enema. "Talk about a burning Bush!"

Seventeen months.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
16. mowbray is robotic dittohead scum ball
figures
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mrsteve Donating Member (713 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. Read and Voted

Its current average rating is 4.41 with 98 vote(s).
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
18. You notice how they blurt out idiocy when they feel real COCKY!!!
Since Arnold won California they can
be all the Deamons they want to be.

Hmmmm.....They are looking to have a taste of their own medicine.

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peterh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
20. This is an extension of the Gingrich attack on State…
These critters really believe the Military should be dictating the whole show….Foreign and Domestic policy. God and might, the path to the New World Order…
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. Why does Pat Robertson hate America so much?
And how are those diamond mines doing Pat?
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Pat got mad when we went after his GOOD FRIEND Charles Taylor
but I'm sure those Liberian mines had NOTHING to do with his opinions on the matter :eyes:
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. done
:kick:
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. gotta kick this one
.
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snippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
37. Because there is good money in it.
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madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
25. Robertson, Falwell and Coulter should be sent to Gitmo
They're American terrorists and crazier than shit house rats!!

:wtf: is wrong with these people???
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
26. The State Department..
....with their insistence on using diplomacy to settle disputes (rather than just blow stuff up), is seen by some right-wad fundies as an impediment to getting their Armegeddon on. God forbid the State Department should succeed in bringing peace to the Mideast. That would mean no Rapture.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
27. my report
I voted and here's what I got:

You have given the news article State Department Protests Televangelist's Remark a rating of 5.
Its current average rating is 4.34 with 138 vote(s).

Robertson needs to be banished. Liberia would be a good choice. I am sure the folks who lived under his buddy, ol' Chucky Taylor, would welcome him! ;-)


Julie
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
28. It's time for Homeland Security...
to detain this dangerous religous extremist, i.e.; 'terrorist' at Gitmo. I'm truly concerned for our nation's safety with men like Robertson running loose. Please god, save us from your followers. <tongue in cheek>
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CheshireCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
31. How o they get away with it?
If Robertson was left-leaning, he would be in jail on a terrorism charge.

You have given the news article State Department Protests Televangelist's Remark a rating of 5.
Its current average rating is 4.34 with 150 vote(s).
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
32. The State Dept are a bunch of wankers
It is sort of the definition of a pluralistic society (in which we live) that it is a society where ideas 'compete in the marketplace'.

It's a little amoral because it sort of suggests that it isn't the rightness of the idea that counts totally, but who puts the most oomph behind the idea they are 'selling'.

But with lots of competing 'good ideas', which can't all be adopted, it's a good way of looking at things.

The State Dept are a bunch spineless losers, like the Foreign Office in britain, because they don't bother to compete in the market place.

Put the State Dept with all their expertise and knowledge up against the knuckledraggers at FreeRepubic, and FreeRepublic will win every time because they know what it takes to get your ideas adopted, and they have got guts and commitment.

Pat Robertson suggests nuking the State Dept, so there's a few pathetic whines from the State Dept, the freepers cheer, and the State Dept has a little more of it's authority and standing within the community stripped away.

Pat Robertson should be arrested for this, but it will never happen because it means the State Dept will have to show a quality that they have not got it in themselves to show, namely courage.

I despise the State Dept.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. they are professionals at geting marginalised
Now firmly 'out of the loop' on the Iraq issue.

Always 'out of the loop' on the I/P issue.

Always having to defend and apologise for their ideas at meetings on Capitol Hill.

Just a complete fucking waste of space.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. How will the State Dept
respond to mowbray's book, one of the hundreds of anti-State Dept books and articles ?

Any attempt at rebuttal ?

Any attempt at a good old piece of standard for everybody else on the planet, character assassination ?

"No, No, No, we are professional diplomats we don't do that sort of thing."

Gutless, Spineless, Useless, Fuckers.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. How is it that 30 or 40 neo-cons
got their foreign policy ideas adopted by the u.s. government ?

I mean some of them aren't even in the government.

Because they compete better than the State Dept who must have thousands of employees.

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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
33. God--save us from your followers
and especially the good Rev. Robertson

what a yutz
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. Will Bush personally denounce this terror threat?
...Sounds like a terrorism threat to me- typical GOP violence...they are ALL such devout "CHristians" , no?
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jburton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
43. kick
eom
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
45. such a nice "Christian" comment
must not be $$$ in gold and diamonds.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
46. uh-oh the fundies are freeping this one
"You have given the news article State Department Protests Televangelist's Remark a rating of 5.
Its current average rating is 3.87 with 270 vote(s). "

Pat Robertson is a hateful, evil man. His followers are either that or profoundly stooo-pid.

One such follower lives in my community and recently went home to ## for a visit. Was thrilled about getting to visit with all her buds there, "They're all such good Christians. A couple years ago, there were some federal revenuers come into the county and they took 'em out and put 'em in the quicksand. There's lots of that around home." She was positively beaming. Didn't know whether I should call the sheriff or the guys with a net and jacket with those really looooong sleeves. She simply did not fathom that what she had just said was a huge contridiction.
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maxanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
47. Robertson sounds
like an enemy combatant to me. Perhaps there is room in Jose Padilla's cellblock.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
49. Ahem
After 9/11 a professor at University of New Mexico lost his job for making jokes about blowing up the Pentagon.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
50. The loons and the lunatics try to outdo one another!
Ain't Fundamentalist christianity grand?
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
55. Calling Pat Roberston a Christian...
Is nearly as disgusting as this story, and I longer get hurt feelings when people make thier jabs at religious faith by reading something like this and saying "yeah nice Chrisitan remark eh?" or "there's Christianity for you."

Pat Robertson is a derranged and wicked man, who happened to latch on to and perverse religious faith into something very ugly. There are just as many examples of people who embrace religious faith and through it blossom into very beautiful very rich, very loving and happy people - but of course, they don't make for good news stories - nothing sexy in them.

I hope that I can be said to be aspiring along that second path. And I am sure as hell not going to be making any apology for it, or feeling bad about it just becuase there are people out there who take some thing that should be incredibly joyful and pevert it into something evil. That happens with many potentially good things. I drink responsibly even though there are alcoholics, drive cars even though there are wreckless drivers, and do a host of other things that, in the wrong hands, can be put to evil uses, and I make no apology for those things in and of themselves.

The best illustration of my point is this: Timothy McVeigh believed he was acting in the name of patriotism, democracy and his country when he committed his act of terrorism in Oklahoma. Does that mean we should speak out against all of Democracy and condemn all partiotism because he claimed his actions were motivated by it? No?

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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. I have to agree with you, here.
Edited on Fri Oct-10-03 10:56 AM by Dhalgren
I think many professing Christians are fine people who follow their faith in genuine, uplifting ways and who deserve admiration for their works. Others who profess to be Christians are actually "Christianists". They use the profession of Christianity to forward a reactionary, plutocratic form of facism that is veiled with the sactity of Biblical teachings. Many, many poorly educated or otherwise "challenged" individuals follow these Christianists without realizing that they are actaully following a political form of gangsterism and not a religion.
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HerbieHeadhunter Donating Member (382 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
57. Not a good couple of weeks for the conservative right...
when they are not putting oxycontin in their mouths, they're putting their foot into it.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
58. they aren't labeled "Rethuglicans" for nothing...Robberson peapod
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Jeff in Cincinnati Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
59. Jose Padilla
Was arrested last May because he claimed to be plotting to construct and detonate a "dirty bomb" even though he didn't have the technical skills or the materials to do it. He's been held without counsel the entire time, even though he hasn't been charged with anything.

Robertson not only has the financial resources to purchase bomb materials, his anti-abortion followers have proven that they are perfectly willing to kill innocents to further their agenda. He's a genuine and legitimate threat to national security and should be arrested immediately.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. Excellent point!
.
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nannygoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. Plus, isn't he good friends with Charles Taylor
former dictator of Liberia who had ties to Al Quaeda?
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spinbaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
63. Oh my, what happened to him?


Drugs? Eye lift gone terribly wrong?
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Oxycontin? (n/t)
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
64. The Freepers May Be Voting
I just voted, and got the following response:

You have given the news article State Department Protests Televangelist's Remark a rating of 5.

Its current average rating is 3.85 with 357 vote(s).
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CheshireCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
65. Ratings of this story on Yahoo
are being freeped as we speak.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
70. If Robem$ome was a Muslim Cleric
his ass would already be in Gitmo after a statement like that.

Double standards suck.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
71. Pat probably figures they're all bound for hell anyway


So if they get burned alive by a nuclear explosion it would only be a foretaste of what hell has in store for them. Of course that's the same line of thinking used by the people that used to burn heretics and witches at the stake.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
72. but, but, but
Edited on Fri Oct-10-03 07:50 PM by northzax
any nuclear device detonated in Foggy Bottom would flatten the White House as well, killing everyone inside, including Saint Cimpy. oh, that's right, the odds are he's be on vacation anyway, hell the man's spent less time in the WH than William Henry Harrison.
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MALiberal Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
73. note to friends of Pat
Edited on Fri Oct-10-03 10:09 PM by MALiberal
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