Fighting Prevents U.S. From Learning Fate of 17 on Copter

[Career Prole]

KABUL, Afghanistan, June 29 - An American helicopter that crashed on Tuesday while ferrying troops into battle in rugged eastern Afghanistan had been hit by hostile fire, the United States military said today, though it remained unclear whether that was what brought the aircraft down.

The fate of the 17 Americans aboard the Chinook helicopter, including 5 crew members, is not yet known, a spokesman here, Col. Jim Yonts, said. Fighting was still going on in the area of the crash this afternoon, he said, and although troops had found the crash site they had not yet been able to reach it.

On Capitol Hill, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Peter Pace, indicated that what had brought down the large twin-rotor aircraft was a shoulder-fired weapon typically used in close combat against tanks and other armored vehicles. "We think it was a rocket-propelled grenade, sir, but not 100 percent sure," General Pace said at a Senate hearing.

A Taliban spokesman, Abdul Latif Hakimi, said Taliban forces were responsible for the attack and said that the Chinook had been downed by a rocket. Speaking by satellite telephone from a location he would not disclose, he said the insurgents had video footage of the attack and would post it on a Taliban Web site. But such a video could not be found on Web site, www.alemarah.com, which appeared later today to have been blocked.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/29/international/asia/29cnd-copter.html?hp&ex=1120104000&en=995e870d866f7eba&ei=5094&partner=homepage

What?! 135,00 troops and we can't get to one downed chopper?!
What's that? Oh, the troops are in Iraq?
Never mind...
:grr:

[NMDemDist2]

1. thanks for the update, I wondered why it was taking so long to get to

the wreckage.

[Career Prole]

5. I quoted the new stuff...

The rest of it was there earlier.
If the Taliban was at the wreckage before we were I don't hold out much hope for survivors. :(

[shadowknows69]

2. Taliban=Mujahadeen?

and you can ask Russia about them. Success in Afghanistan, success in EE-RAK...Yehaw!!! Freedom on the march!!!

[XemaSab]

12. The simple lesson of Afghanistan

is STAY OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.

[maddezmom]

3. I'm concerned about the other troops on the ground

the helo's were going in to support them....this scenario doesn't sound good at all.

[Career Prole]

7. I don't remember a blow-up this big since Tora Bora.

D'ya think...
Nah.

[maddezmom]

8. no, I think they were getting close to something

and I also think there were more on that plane than 17.....I'm not sure, but contractors of some sort.

[radar]

19. Article about the SAS a couple days ago...

27 June 2005
SAS ON ALERT FOR OSAMA SWOOP
Exclusive By Chris Hughes
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15669538&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=sas-on-alert-for-osama-swoop--name_page.html

SAS troops were last night poised to storm into Afghanistan and capture Osama bin Laden.
Special forces have "good intelligence" the al-Qaeda boss or a senior henchman is holed up in a Taliban enclave.
Two squadrons are on stand-by waiting for the go-ahead from reconnaissance troops on the ground in Afghanistan....

[cliss]

30. I believe the article I read said,

'US troops were coming to the assistance of Coalition troops' when their helicopter was assumed to have been shot down'.

I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember the exact quote. But without doubt, it said Coalition troops. I think this means other countries, like Australia or Poland (?)

I could be wrong...

[leftchick]

9. me too. No communication from the commandos since before crash

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/29/terror/main704968.shtml

The chopper hit a mountain and rolled down a steep slope into a ravine, meaning that not only are 17 special operations force lives at stake, but the small team of American commandos on patrol that called for help might have suffered, Martin reports. The commandos have not been heard from since yesterday before the crash.

With more than 17 probable deaths, this incident could shape up to be the worst loss special operations forces have suffered since the war on terror began.

The coalition and Afghan troops "quickly moved into position around the crash to block any enemy movement toward or away from the site" and coalition support aircraft were overhead, the statement said.

It will take an investigation to determine whether or not this helicopter was, in fact, shot down, Martin said. If it was, this would be the first known instance of a helicopter being brought down by enemy fire. And if that means that the Taliban has figured out a way to shoot down American helicopters, this would be a major new threat, because helicopters are a primary means of transportation along those mountains.

[Career Prole]

22. I'm leaning toward "shot down" because of this from an article 6/28...

Provincial Gov. Asadullah Wafa told The Associated Press that the Taliban downed the aircraft with a rocket. He gave no other details.

Purported Taliban spokesman Mullah Latif Hakimi called the AP before news of the crash was released and claimed that the rebels shot the helicopter down.

Hakimi often calls news organizations to claim responsibility for attacks on behalf of the Taliban. His information has sometimes proven untrue or exaggerated, and his exact tie to the group's leadership is unclear.

That "called the AP before news of the crash was released" could be explained otherwise, like if they have a good grapevine, but...


Edit to add link

[newscott]

14. I'm having the same thought about that. Not good.

[DoYouEverWonder]

4. No wonder Bu$h only mentioned Afghanistan twice

last night. Another FUBAR by Bu$hCo.

[UCSBLiberalCat53]

6. I wonder

do they want to save the bad news for the weekend?

[Divernan]

15. Press releases typically scheduled for 4:29 p.m., Fri. afternoons

from Pentagon or any other federal agency are to be expected.

[BeHereNow]

10. Just imagine yourself in that position-

IF you survived the crash, the absolute
terror you might feel as you sat waiting to be discovered
alive, by your enemies, knowing full well that no help was
on the way...
GOD DAMN YOU NEOCON FUCKERS!
I want the Bush Twins enlisted and on the combat lines-
NOW.
BHN

[Toots]

16. If these guys were Special Forces there would be no terror

In fact I pity the Taliban if they survived the crash.

[Maple]

43. Don't pity the Taliban

They're in no danger whatever.

[catnhatnh]

11. I'll say it again...the Chinook is an ANCIENT piece of shit...

...that couldn't safely haul boy scouts to a barbecue...Using them in a theater where your enemy is known to have EVEN just rpgs is every bit as criminal as the unarmored humvees....

[dArKeR]

26. My friend was flying one in Nam about 67. That's really old technology.

[catnhatnh]

31. My brother told me that in '72...

guys would rather stay on the perimeter UNDER FIRE than stand under one to guide it on the LZ...

[Herkdrvr]

35. The only thing that's the same on those

is the airframe. The engines, avionics, and other systems have been completely updated, and they are undergoing another generation of updates.

[Herkdrvr]

34. I disagree

The Chinooks are good aircraft. The current model, the CH-47D, is pretty capable, and they were all completely remanufactured back in the 1980s. The MH-47Es were mostly new build aircraft built in the 1980s and 1990s.

The Chinook has been used by every president since the 1960s, and they will continue to be in service for a while...another remanufacture program is underway to create the CH-47F/MH-47G variants.

[onecent]

13. God, How I hate our Media@!!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[Roland99]

18. I hate the politicians controlling the military and the media!!

[Daphne08]

17. Can you imagine... what if some of those soldiers from the

helicopter crash are wounded and suffering right now?

God, my heart aches for them, if that is the case. :cry:


By dividing our military as Rumsfeld did when he decided to invade Iraq and form two fronts, he needlessly put ALL our troops in harm's way, it seems to me.

Isn't that a strategic mistake, blunder, whatever if you are already low on troops?

I don't have any military experience, but it does seem to be simple logic.

[billyoc]

20. You have just as much military experience

as the entire administration put togethter. :hi:

[Herkdrvr]

40. I don't know about that...

[Yupster]

32. Are you suggesting we should have 100,000 troops

in Afghanistan?

That doesn't seem like a very good idea.

They traditionally don't like foreigners there in any numbers much less huge numbers.

The best we can do there is stay out of populatd areas and use small hunter groups to fight in the unpopulated areas.

Sending many more American troops to Afghanistan is not a good idea.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

21. Must be one of the shoulder-fired missles that Reagan

sold to them, no?

[saigon68]

23. Reagan gave them to the Taliban

To use on the Russians and their Hind helicopters.

There is a lot of discussion that the battery packs dying and with a lack of maintenance--- any they still have are ineffective duds.

Oops someone was wrong on that score

[burrowowl]

24. Seem to still be effective

against helicopters of the same era.
And the troops they were providing back-up for?
The Ride of the Light Brigrad ... Into ...

[saigon68]

25. The valley of death rode the 600

A stirring moment in British miltary history.

The Charge of the Light Brigade
Alfred, Lord Tennyson

1.

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!
"Charge for the guns!" he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

2.

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

3.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.

4.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn'd in air,
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

5.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.

6.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honor the charge they made,
Honor the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred.

[Herkdrvr]

37. Question...

"Oops someone was wrong on that score"

What makes you think it was a Stinger?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

44. Because a US helo would not recognize a

Stinger as a threat on any sort of ECM gear?

[Igel]

27. Not "must". "Might." n/t

[Herkdrvr]

36. No...more than likely something like an RPG or SA-7

[dArKeR]

28. Any DUers understand Arabic and have looked at that site? It appears

by their counter that only 101 people have visited the site. Seems a little low. I did see some interest pictures. It sounds like the MP3s are religious preachings.

[MisterP]

29. apparently, the 7 they were sent to pick up have vanished also:

Taliban said they captured them

[daleo]

33. Any captured U.S. soldier could be the object of vengeance given Guantanamo

One hopes they don't learn the hard way why Bush shouldn't have opened up the torture tit for tat.

[Herkdrvr]

38. Wrong

The Afghans have always been extremely brutal to captured enemies. Dismemberment, torture and the like have been the status quo there for a long, long time.

[daleo]

41. That was the status quo in Europe until rather recently as well.

I don't know if Afghanistan signed the Geneva Conventions during one of its brief periods of modernization and autonomy, and whether its customs regarding prisoners may have evolved in a somewhat more "civilized" direction in the twentieth century. I use quotes full knowing civilized societies are not often too civilized themselves in these matters.

Certainly the British found the locals given to treating prisoners unpleasantly in the 19th century, not that they didn't share the tendency at times. Ditto for the Russians in the 20th century. The U.S. may find the same is true in the 21st century.

In any case, Bush's treatment of prisoners will not serve as an inspiring example of the virtues of western civilization to any society's we may come into contact with.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

45. As Kipling said...

...When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!

last verses of
The Young British Soldier
by Rudyard Kipling


entire poem at http://www.io.com/tog/extra/kipybs.html


how true. the fucking thing makes me cry.

[shamanstar]

39. DISTRACTION from iraq

distract the american people from iraq by going into afghanistan and getting the ever elusive bin laden.
it is so sad when you can see the headlines forming months down the road from events that are "happening" now.

[dArKeR]

42. The last one in line looks like Tillman

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/photo/2005/06/30/2005038158