Troops' Silence at Fort Bragg Starts a Debate All Its Own

[UpInArms]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/30/politics/30speech.html

WASHINGTON, June 29 - So what happened to the applause?

When President Bush visits military bases, he invariably receives a foot-stomping, loud ovation at every applause line. At bases like Fort Bragg - the backdrop for his Tuesday night speech on Iraq - the clapping is often interspersed with calls of "Hoo-ah," the military's all-purpose, spirited response to, well, almost anything.

So the silence during his speech was more than a little noticeable, both on television and in the hall. On Wednesday, as Mr. Bush's repeated use of the imagery of the Sept. 11 attacks drew bitter criticism from Congressional Democrats, there was a parallel debate under way about whether the troops sat on their hands because they were not impressed, or because they thought that was their orders.

With Iraq once more atop the political agenda, the Senate on Wednesday gave hasty approval to an additional $1.5 billion for the Department of Veterans Affairs, to cover a budget gap caused in part by unexpected demands for health care by returning Iraqi veterans. The administration has reversed itself, and now plans to seek emergency money from both the House and the Senate. Before the Senate voted unanimously to raise the spending for health care, the head of the veterans administration returned to Capitol Hill on Wednesday to tell House members that, contrary to his testimony the previous day, the agency needs emergency financing for this year and the administration will be submitting a request.

...more...

[sundancekid]

1. I thought the silence from the troops at the speech was deafening

[lebkuchen]

64. Silence is the next best thing to booing

As predicted, the troops have reached their tolerance threshold for bullshit from this phony administration.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[burrowowl]

5. Yes that is a concern

You would think that the PNAC fascist would be concerned about a reduction in cannon fodder!
Oh well there a lot of freeze dried embryos, now recruit WOMEN to carry them!

[dArKeR]

3. Maybe the soldiers were waiting for aWol's daughters to enlist so that

they could understand how sincere aWol is. Jeb's daughter Noelle is recruiting age too. Why isn't Jeb's daughter enlisting?

[Occulus]

6. .

Amazing photoshop job, there.

Powerful.

[Coexist]

43. Noelle is a family-values crackhead -

only oxycontin addicts and snorters and are allowed to pretend to serve. She obviously didn't get the memo.

http://www.thefirsttwins.com/noelle_mugs.html

[Barrett808]

4. I was watching faces during the hand-shaking afterward

There were very few smiling faces. The couple I noticed were on civilian women; I don't think I saw a single military man smiling.

[dArKeR]

7. I noticed that in the Yahoo pics too

[VegasWolf]

8. Hard to smile when you have to buy your own flak jacket on EBay.nt

[lebkuchen]

67. The same lack of enthusiasm was evident when the Mrs. visited Landstuhl

a few months ago, Bush at Wiesbaden...military faces in the audience were grim, and clapping was very unenthusiastic, merely perfunctory.

The Chimp`s photo op with the troops has thankfully come to an end.

[Hissyspit]

9. I have a student who was at the speech, but he was absent tonight...

and I won't be able to ask him about it again until next Wednesday, when we have class again. I do intend to ask him, though.

[catzies]

10. Please tell us about it when you do, hissyspit. Looking forward to it.

Tell him all the great progressive minds at DU want to know. :)

[lovuian]

11. I think the Military are realizing they are being used!!!

and its getting on their nerves and ticking them off!!!

[DeepModem Mom]

12. OMG, no wonder those soldiers looked so uncomfortable --

they didn't know what to do, no matter what they thought about the speech, or about being used. And they WERE used. And the WH advance effed up, and Bush didn't know what was going on.

I hope this becomes Carrier Landing II.

[barbaraann]

13. Applause was the reason the speech was in Ft. Bragg.

That is why Karl Rove staged it there--otherwise it might as well have been given from the Oval Office.

Another point--if the American media can't find out why the soldiers in that audience didn't clap, that institution is far, far, far beyond worthless.

[TheDebbieDee]

81. Far, far, far beyond worthless describe them.....

to a "t".

[dchill]

87. My thought exactly...

This speech was a HUGE backfire for the Bush/Rove administration - and of course the media hacks are not addressing that fact at all. They talk about the repetition of old lies and distortions as if they were actual facts that need to be discussed for their relevance.

[rocktivity]

14. My theory is that they sensed the resentment about the soliders being used

and decided to play down that angle--make it less of a pep rally and more of a "serious" policy discussion. You saw very little of the soliders and heard even less--lots of clapping would have drawn more attention to them. The venue didn't look military at all, and the backdrop looked so piecemeal I think it was put together at the next to last minute.

:headbang:
rocknation

[northzax]

45. I agree with you

I think they were ordered to be at attention, in dress uniforms to reduce the noise, some commander realized that either they were being used or that they couldn't guarantee lots of approval-sounding noises, so they cut it off at the pass.

bad mistake by the advance team.

[peacebuzzard]

71. That is exactly what my Iraq vet coworker said

that the "at attention" order was given. ( vs "at ease" which would allow verbal exclamations)

[NNN0LHI]

15. Troops' Silence at Fort Bragg Starts a Debate All Its Own

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/30/politics/30speech.html

WASHINGTON, June 29 - So what happened to the applause?

When President Bush visits military bases, he invariably receives a foot-stomping, loud ovation at every applause line. At bases like Fort Bragg - the backdrop for his Tuesday night speech on Iraq - the clapping is often interspersed with calls of "Hoo-ah," the military's all-purpose, spirited response to, well, almost anything.

So the silence during his speech was more than a little noticeable, both on television and in the hall. On Wednesday, as Mr. Bush's repeated use of the imagery of the Sept. 11 attacks drew bitter criticism from Congressional Democrats, there was a parallel debate under way about whether the troops sat on their hands because they were not impressed, or because they thought that was their orders. snip


After two presidential campaigns, Mr. Bush has finely tuned his sense of timing for cueing applause, especially when it comes to his most oft-expressed declarations of resolve to face down terrorists. But when the crowd did not respond on Tuesday , he seemed to speed up his delivery a bit. Then, toward the end of the 28-minute speech, there was an outbreak of clapping when Mr. Bush said, "We will stay in the fight until the fight is done."

Terry Moran, an ABC News White House correspondent, said on the air on Tuesday night that the first to clap appeared to be a woman who works for the White House, arranging events. Some other reporters had the same account, but Captain Earnhardt and others in the back of the room say the applause was started by a group of officers.

[Erika]

16. There was no enthusiasm by the troops

I watched the mixing aftermath on C-Span. The troops were polite but certainly not enthusiastic.

[TacticalPeek]

17. White House or officers - will the real shills please stand up?

The rulers are so hard to spot without a program.

[RobertSeattle]

18. I think it was planned in the sense that Commanders told them not to

I was in the Army and I don' think this was a "Hoo-Ah" event - the word was probably out by the commanders that their would be no outbursts during the talk - and I'm glad.

To the White House's credit, they didn't put a "Chorus" of troops behind Bush or some ridiculous banner like the "Mission Accomplished" one in 2003.

[Island Blue]

28. If they didn't want clapping

they could have just saved the time and money spent traveling to NC and he could have made the damn speech from the Oval Office. I think he's lost his touch as a cheerleader. Poor thing, that was his only real skill after all.

[ElectroPrincess]

29. There's very little I'm willing after all theses horrific experiences...

to put any DAMN thing to the White House's credit.

I served in the military also. I remember ALL of Bush-Co's speeches were interrupted at times with cheers and applause.

This was a silent protest. CNN's Paula Zahn and Wolf Blitzer were "preparing us" for several interruptions for applause.

The ONLY thing that I'm willing to believe is that "a group of officers" started the ONE applause break of the speech. The forgoing makes perfect sense as these were the LEADERS who were tasked to *hand pick* the troops sitting in the audience. They were quite rightly "sweating bullets" that their superiors would discipline them if the troops didn't respond somewhat enthusiastic. That break was their only true opportunity without being obnoxiously overt. Therefore, sure, it's plausible that a group of officers began that one applause break.

But no, I don't believe for one moment that these troops were ordered not to applause.

[Toots]

62. But no, I don't believe for one moment that these troops were ordered not

I agree completely. It would have beconme a scandal to end a career. They may have been told no outbursts to keep away the boos and catcalls but I would bet a large amount that no Officer Ordered the men to remain silent.

[leesa]

35. Not a chance. NO ONE giving a political speech, or any speech, wants

to be met with silence. The whole point was to whip up fervor, why would the put the troops on mute?

[Catchawave]

38. I heard about the "no applause" request to....

keep the speech somber. I also heard the troops in the audience were handpicked invitees, much like all the rest of his staged "town hall" meetings where he pushes his agenda.

[jokerman93]

41. No Applause Rule?

Sounds like spin. I'm getting dizzy!

[jn2375]

48. Speech was planned for 40 minutes but only lasted 28 without applause

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

54. To the White House's credit? Have a look at post #55 on this DU thread

Need I say more.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1895758#1896558

And since I'm new posting, but not new reading, I just want to say
THANK YOU, TIA!

[calimary]

88. Welcome to DU!

Good to have you up 'n' posting!

Now, having done that, roll up yer sleeves... time to get to work.

[Swamp Rat]

19. The soldiers know that THEY were using them as a propaganda tool.

Of course, there were a few BushBots that came to the front... a cushy spot compared to a muddy foxhole in Afghanistan.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

40. BING!

You hit that nail on the head! :beer:

[stickdog]

20. So their EXCUSE is that the OFFICERS told the troops not to clap or cheer?

"The guy from White House advance, during the initial meetings, said, 'Be careful not to let this become a pep rally,' " Captain Earnhardt recalled in a telephone interview. Scott McClellan, the White House press secretary, confirmed that account.

As the message drifted down to commanders, it appears that it may have gained an interpretation beyond what the administration's image-makers had in mind. "This is a very disciplined environment," said Captain Earnhardt, "and some guys may have taken it a bit far," leaving the troops hesitant to applaud.

Isn't that even worse?

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. they are blaming an O-3 unfricking unbelievable

[stanwyck]

58. Couldn't they get Jeff Gannon...

former Marine (well, actually, that was another lie) to pump up the troops?
I'm not buying Scotty's spin.
When has this administration NOT wanted a pep rally?
They're all about the pep rallies.
Wasn't that the point?
The soldiers are not the robots many think. They're people.
And Bush, despite huge efforts to make him appear so...like landing on a carrier, doesn't inspire confidence as a commander in chief.
Only the chickenhawks on their sofas -- with no military experience -- are fooled by the theatrics.
The real soldiers know he's a poser.
He shirked his Guard service. He lied about the WMD.
They know.

[radfringe]

21. CNN cut away

during the 'spontaneous applause' - CNN had the camera on a couple of rows of clapping troops, right behind them was another row NOT clapping, CNN quickly cut away to another shot which featured everyone clapping

spontaneous or not - the applause was not all that enthusiastic, it was "polite" so as not to offend

over all, I found bush* appearing like he had a chip on his shoulder. He walked out, read his speech, and then left. No waves, no nodding to the crowd - it was like he was saying "ok, I gave the stupid speech - now just shut up and leave me alone."

[rateyes]

36. And, I swear that in one of those rows where there was no one

clapping, a couple of the troops feigned sneezing into their hands and said "Bullshit."

[teryang]

23. A speech by this idiot is not news- it never was

The notion that anything this man says is historically important or newsworthy has always been a fiction perpetrated by a public relations machine.

He is completely ineffectual and not the real leader of our country. He is nothing more than a cheerleader for certain corporatist interests and the families who own them. Cheney and Rumsfeldt run the country. W's loss of significance is attributable to his fathers advancing age and the inability to put another successor in office.

As power no longer transferred constitutionally, there is a succession crisis. W was his father's proxy in a triumvirate. And now there are two.

[truthisfreedom]

25. brilliant assessment.

[Beam Me Up]

63. ^ ding ^ ding ^ ding ^

Yes, I think you are right on the money.

There are some who saw the events of 9/11 as a domestic and foreign policy coup d'tat for the PNAC neocons. Although they are aided and abetted by some within the military, there are many others within the military who righteously hate them. DSM, Plame indictments, images of torture from Abu and Gitmo; could these be part of a brewing counter coup?

[tofubo]

68. we americans give the military our approval to hold and remove

for questioning, interrogation, prosecution, and imprisonment any and all involved in the vote fraud in 2000 & 2004, the attack on our country on 911, the illegal wars & war profiteering occuring to the tune of BILLIONS, and sheer disgrace this administration has put on our country (that of course includes the enablers in the congress and julius streicher wannabe's in the media)

[Beam Me Up]

86. They certainly have my permission.

And if they need any help, they can just let me know.

[XemaSab]

66. In short, he's a tool

n/t

[0007]

24. junior got the message loud & clear

[remfan]

26. The WH deserved exactly what they got

The man cannot appear before a crowd of ordinary Americans for fear of being challenged.

Says a whole lot about the man's courage, leadership abilities, and character.

Commander-in-Chief? Yeah, right. Use them as props and then blame them for not following the script.

[non sociopath skin]

27. And if he can't now get a reaction from a bunch of service personnel ....

... who are under orders to applaud him, where does this take him?

Dunno, but it'll make interesting viewing.

The Skin

[Roland99]

30. Someone should have shouted out, "Where's the beef?"

[TyeDye75]

32. Good one, how about

Wheres Osama Bin Laden

[LynneSin]

31. A photograph of the White House Aid in charge of clapping

[w8liftinglady]

72. LOL!

[maxrandb]

33. If the Troops Were Ordered Not to Clap. There is Only ONE Reason Why

I've participated and arranged many of these VIP type events. CNO, Admiral's, Senators, etc.

If they were ordred not to clap and Hoo-Haa it was because it was the only way to control them. Look, if you have a bunch of people screaming and clapping, it is way too easy for someone to yell out "War Criminal". In a crowd, it's very hard to pick out the one who yells "Fuck You".

This was an attempt to control the crowd so that no onappropriate or embarrassing incident could occur.

IMHO Anyway

:rofl:

[oscar111]

34. JUST ASK A SOLDIER, if "order'd not to clap?"

if media hasnt asked one yet, why not.

If media has asked soldiers, which they must have within seconds of the speech end, why are they keeping mum on the replies.?

obviously, soldiers gave an answer the MSM doesnt want to relay to us

what might that be? Could only be... "no orders. We just didnt want to clap for this idiot"

[tibbiit]

80. Yes I bet you are right on!

Oscar111 said:
if media hasnt asked one yet, why not.

If media has asked soldiers, which they must have within seconds of the speech end, why are they keeping mum on the replies.?

obviously, soldiers gave an answer the MSM doesnt want to relay to us

what might that be? Could only be... "no orders. We just didnt want to clap for this idiot"

so right on.
tib

[meganmonkey]

37. He was expected to enlighten them and encourage them

about the war and all he did was repeat the same old tired lies as always. All the pre-coverage indicated that one of his purposes in giving the speech was to explain to the troops and the country in general how much progress is being made, and how there is a strategy overall. But he didn't do that at all - probably because there is so little progress being made, and the only strategy is to stay in war forever and keep the military contractors in business...

He didn't dangle any carrots, he didn't throw the soldiers any proverbial candy, he blew it. It was a waste.

I wouldn't cheer either. These guys are probably feeling hopeless as all hell about the war, but willing to keep going...he gave them NOTHING to go forward with.

[Brotherjohn]

39. It's HILARIOUS listening to them try to explain this away.

When, after quoting a captain who said the WH specifically asked them to tone it down, they said "Scott McClellan, the White House press secretary, confirmed that account"...

THAT'S when I knew they were lying their asses off.

[vincent_vega_lives]

42. When the President walks in the room

the troops go to Attention. You can't clap at attention.

The only time they clapped was when it was initiated by the WH aid.

[TankLV]

75. So all the other times when he did this is just our imagination?

I smell bullshit.

Very thick today from some.

This was supposed to be a photo op in front of a supportive and friendly audience.

All of a sudden, with the dipshit's numbers tanking and the lies becomming more obvious every day to the sheeple, they decide to change EVERYTHING they've EVER done ALL the time at ALL of his previous appearances.

Yeah - OK. Sounds right. (sarcasm off)

[vincent_vega_lives]

89. You don't pick your nose unless told to

when a high level VIP makes a visit. All the other times they were allowed to sound off.

[daleo]

79. Most other occasions, he got the hooah treatment

I hope I spelled that right. He has used military audiences before - previously they have been fairly exuberant (although I don't know if that was necessarily entirely genuine).

[vincent_vega_lives]

90. Sure

For what ever reason this time it was changed. I guarantee they got a talk before had on when to come to attention, when to clap and when not to. This wasn't a campaign whistle-stop. It's all scripted.

[johnnie]

44. I think it was a protest

If those men and women were given orders from their commanders not to applaud, they would have never applauded when the bush staffer started. Wouldn't that have been going against orders?

[Richardo]

47. no protest would have resulted in 100% silence

some would have applauded.

I think it was orders.

[johnnie]

52. Like I said

If you are given a specific order from your commander, then you do not go against that order. Why did they go against their orders then?

[Richardo]

53. maybe the order was not specific, maybe it was along the lines of

...let's keep it down out there.

:shrug:

I don't know, and have never received orders, but it seems to me that if the troops WERE hand-picked, that a protest would have been sporadic at best.

[grumpy old fart]

65. Roberto, now there was a role model. A "hands on" hero.

[Richardo]

70. You got it, G.O.F.

#21 was the man. :thumbsup:

[Arkansas Granny]

46. I watched the speech (barf, barf, gag, gag) and thought

it unusual that they didn't even clap when he walked onstage. If you saw the expressions on the faces of the soldiers in the audience, they were very somber. I don't know if the lack of applause was due to orders or was a silent protest. I don't think it was what the White House had expected when they chose a military base for the setting.

[jn2375]

49. Applause was expected because speech was scheduled to last

40 minutes but only lasted 28 without applause. So it was expected!!!

[NJCher]

50. Whatever the reason

Just the fact that it's a story in the NY Times debating it makes it a fiasco. Lose-lose for bush.

Cher

[Tsiyu]

51. * ought to just be glad they all didn't boo and hiss

and throw tomatoes.

How many of those soldiers have lost dear friends due to *'s lies?

How many know families separated for years by *'s lies?

How many have seen returning maimed soldiers whose lives are forever changed for the worst because of sheer greed?

How many have been forced to kill innocent human beings on orders of a man who was too busy snorting cocaine to ever serve in wartime himself?

* & CO. are so out of touch with reality it is frightening.

[TankLV]

73. He should be glad they weren't allowed to carry their weapons.

[Tsiyu]

74. No doubt

:hi:

[dhinojosa]

55. If the Bush admin. was fucking me over all the time too,....

I'd keep my hands near my ass too.

These troops have gotten the shit end of the stick when it comes to armor, food, pay, and other things. WTF!!!

[Imalittleteapot]

56. Also, I noticed when * was working the crowd and

shaking hands at the end of his speech that the troops were stone faced - few smiles. Most smiley faces were on civilians.

[Puzzler]

59. Whatever the real reason is...

... the end results were a big f**k-up for the Bush PR team. It just looked plain bad.

-P

[Politicub]

57. Poor troops

At least they have caught on to being nothing more than a backdrop for Rove/Bush's traveling 9/11 show.

[Don_1967]

60. USED

These guys are not stupid they knew thy were being used & they were pissed

[AnneD]

61. Remember...

Many of these troops (USAR at least) are older with careers and families on hold. When I went in, there was a notiable differance between the USAR's and the active recruits. We took all the brainwashing with a grain of salt. Our goal was to do the job in the easiest way possible, as quick as possible, and get home in one piece. The young ones have bought the lie for the most part and the older hate to think that it is all for nothing (which it is).
I think the thought that Rummy et al are bandying about such diverse and LONG (12yrs)tours to these guys that are trapped in due to stop loss is a big part. You can't throw tomatoes or boo- even if it is deserved because you are a professional. But you can sit in stoney silence and not get in trouble.
It didn't look good.

[Lowell]

69. They were just props

background for bush, nothing more. He's have gotten more response if he'd have just planted mannequins in the seats. Trust me, it is hard work applauding for the psychopath who keeps putting your ass on the line then taunting the enemy with, "bring em on." I think those troops saw through the whole charade and were simply not impressed. Afterall these were real soldiers, not AWOL, deserter pantywaste like their CIC.

[Peace Patriot]

76. New York Times Bushspeak...

"...there was a parallel debate under way about whether the troops sat on their hands because they were not impressed, or because they thought that was their orders." --New York Times

"Or because they thought that was their orders" NOT TO CLAP FOR BUSH???!!!!

Right off Karl Rove's desk. Shame, shame on you, NYT!

[beboplives]

77. Bush's Speech Further Showcased His Shortcomings

The silence during the speech will probably be explained away as orders. I watched it on Faux News, and I thought I heard Brit Hume make this comment. Nevertheless, as this war has dragged on, the so called "War President" has failed to live up to his moniker. War Presidents can communicate a coherent message, and they don't need to preach to the choir to do so. The President needs to convince those of us who have grown sour on this mess called Iraq that he has a plan for assembling what he has "disassembled". I for one remain thoroughly unconvinced, angry, and ashamed.

Please check out one more blog recently added to the blogosphere at www.recipesfromthebigtop.typepad.com

[jn2375]

78. Check this out!!!!!!

42% of Americans Favor Possible Bush Impeachment
Submitted by jonschwarz on Thu, 2005-06-30 14:08. General Discussion
A Zogby poll released today finds 42% of all Americans—including 25% of Republicans—say that "if it is found that President Bush did not tell the truth about his reasons for going to war with Iraq, Congress should hold him accountable through impeachment." According to Zogby, in Eastern and Western states supporters of impeachment outnumber opponents.

Zogby also found that Bush’s speech on Tuesday "produced no noticeable bounce in his approval numbers, with his job approval rating slipping a point from a week ago, to 43%."

» 4 comments

[lynch03]

82. The no applause rule thing seems really really stupid and made up

Think about it, the Republicans want to portray the president as someone who's beloved by the troops, the expression of approval would only help him. Why would they want to undermine the troops satisfaction with the Pres. by telling the troops to keep it down?? I think DUBYA and the white house loves the usually enthusiastic reaction he gets from the troops, it looks REALLY GOOD FOR HIM, why the hell would they deliberately tell them to tone it down?? Especially at at a time with pathetic poll numbers. Think about it, the troops approval translates into the President making the right decisions in Iraq, if the troops appprove of the decisions he's making, then why should anyone question it??

Because it didn't match the environment,?? ya bullshit..

[Algorem]

83. the fake-news media isn't interested in this,are they?they're busy pushing

the President-of-Iran-is-a-terrorist story which looks incredibly like the swine boat veterans production to me.

[teryang]

84. Neo con military support comes from the Air Force not the Army

The Army has been taking on the chin ever since they took over. Things in the Army are deadly serious. What have they got to cheer about?

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

85. Bush,s Speech 6/28/05

In Deed, Good afternoon, I am an old soldier,and I wrote a summation of Bush,s speech ,and I would like to share it with you all. In deed, president Bush did manage to get a point across. No time line. Sending mixed signals would leave them the impression ,all they have to do is wait us out. And on the other hand we will not be trusted. (Abandonment) A thing called mass killing as a result of abandonment.So he did in deed sum it up there. Should we be there no I think not,but we are there so we must do the right thing. To understand terrorism reguards to the middle east as a whole ,we must understand middle eastern countries. (The United Arab Republic) I am only going one way on this one. Take a look at the map ,the middle east,the uniter Arab countries. Psychological war fare,and terrorism across the middle east and the world. Nomads, travelers, born at point a. and residing at some point b. One thing in common,one religion,same belief. A belief that america is some kind of evil empire. A religion that teachs from the beginning of understanding ,that it is not this life that matters,but the next only. Now how many countries are there in the middle east? And how much of that in space does Iraq take up? Compare Rhoad Island to america north america and there you may have some type of comparison.So you see it,s a very very big world.Spreading freedom democracy it,s a very,very,very big world. Have you ever spotted mile markers on the old interstate highway? Would you compare one of those to a rather large imprint ,if you know what I mean? The thing of it is we are at war and we must support what ever is that plan. Though at the same time the president really did not have anything positive to say about the situation. So than let me make this perfectly clear, The President said at a point in his speech,that we must get past 911, get on with it, put it behind us,we are not a nation of peoples that are hiding under our beds over it, we must move on. And later on in his speech he goes on to remind us repeatedly right to his closing words. So let me reiterate further to sum up all George Bush said in his speech,---1,2,3,4, (Do a little tap dance, than shuffel over to the right, (Got ya covered) nine ten no problum Thats It.) So in conclusion let me further say ,Just say no to George. Thankyou and good evening Your friend in deed Desk Jet of Washington State,