Pope condemns London attacks ("anti-Christian")

[Roland99]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15857931-1702,00.html

POPE Benedict XVI today condemned as "inhuman" a series of attacks on the London transport network which left at least two people dead and scores injured, the Vatican said.

The pontiff described the attacks as "inhuman and anti-Christian," in a telegram to the Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor.

Pope Benedict added that he had learned of the attacks "with pain", and wanted to assure the victims and their families that he was spiritually close to them.

[tk2kewl]

1. moron... fan the flames

inhuman for sure, but why call them ant-Christian? If they bomb the vatican then you can say anti-Christian

[SpiralHawk]

6. Hey, Ratzinger and Bush are on a 'Holy' CRUSADE, so they can say anything

Moronosity is the Coin of the Skull & Boner realm.

[saigon68]

58. As the Bush Criminals Murder thousands-- He's silent

This stale dried up piece of shit now sheds tears-- He is a joke.

[RPM]

25. please - give them ideas

i may convert to islam if they were to bomb the vatican...

OK not really. But seriously, is this the pope's way of asserting Christianity + Good and Islam = bad.

what a fuckwad

[malaise]

43. I haven't heard a word from him

re the innocents in Iraq or Afghanistan. I guess some lives are more important than others. I hate this planet.
<edit - sp>

[Barkley]

72. I love this planet; its my home

What people are doing is harmful and causing us problems.

Valuing some lives more than others did not start on 7/7/05; we've seen it everyday with every thing from the missing teens in Aruba to the innocents in Iraq in Afghanistan.

Once upon a time, I considered myself a "Catholic". But I learned that practice of religion was too limiting for me. The pope's silence on the innocents and failure to equally condemn the source of the violence is supports my decision to be a former Catholic.

[malaise]

73. Actually I do love nature

the animals and the environment, butI detest many human beings. I questioned my catholic upbringing at 12 and gave up all religion at 17. They are all led by evil men with evil plans. Isn't the catholic church the oldest multinational on the planet.

[ElTexican]

51. Murder is a sin, thus anti-Christian

But let's keep up the anti-Catholic bias, shall we?

[Roaming]

59. I think he was referring to the behavior--that bombing civilians

is not a Christian thing to do. Which is kind of a moot point, since it's almost 100% certain whoever did this was probably Islamic.

[Goldmund]

2. Interesting

Unless he suspects that the attackers were Christians who did it in the name of Christianity, why would he choose to call them "anti-Christian"?

[Igel]

11. Is this the logic when somebody attacks some Muslims, and

imams and others describe it as anti-Islam?

Would the imams in that case be presupposing that the attackers were Muslims who did it in the name of Islam--or, what I consider more likely, assuming the attackers were non-Muslims who attacked the Muslims for being Muslim?

I'd use "un-Christian" if I thought the attackers in London were Christian, and wanted to denounce their actions as antithetical to Christian principles.

[daleo]

14. It does seem a bit inflammatory for the pope to use the term

We don't actually know the motives of the attackers yet. I suspect that anti-western, anti-colonialist, or anti-imperialist is really a better description, although the presumptive bombers may well use inflamatory religious language as well.

London is a very cosmopolitan city (so they say, I haven't had the pleasure yet), and overt religiosity is not that high in the U.K., so to describe an indiscriminate attack in London as anti-Christian is probably factually wrong as well.

[Igel]

38. If the people doing the bombing wind up using anti-Christian

or strongly Islam-supremacist language, I'd say it's accurate. If you ask me tomorrow, I may agree with you.

Part of me likes reinterpreting people's motives, the "academic knows their motivation better than they do"; part of me seriously hates when other academics do that to me, because I find their reinterpretation of my behavior usually rings hollow.

[daleo]

52. Well, maybe we will know more by tomorrow.

I still think the pope is playing with fire, using that kind of language which can easily be mis-construed, whatever he means by it. It would be one thing for a splinter fanatic group to frame this event in religious language, but another for the official head of the largest Christian denomination.

[kiraboo]

20. Apparently he has the brains of a flea. He's using christian

rhetoric without thinking about it. Idiot.

[JohnnyBoots]

61. He knows exactly what he is doing, this is the same man

who refused to let Kerry recieve communion because he was pro-choice. The fact that Benedict said this during the election when a lot of Catholics were siding with Kerry is just a coincidence then?

[stepnw1f]

3. Opportunistic Morality (nt)

[Dangerman]

4. Yeah...

And what we're doing in Iraq is good and noble. (sarcasm)

[mitchtv]

5. STFU

No comments from the peanut gallery.

[navvet]

7. I may be taking a risk here

but I do not know of any place in the New Testament that advocates the killing of innocents of any persuasion or nationality.

If that is what the Pope meant than I see no problem with his comments.

[Roland99]

13. "Blessed are the bomb-droppers" got cut from the Beatitudes

Just didn't quite make it.

[daleo]

17. In that case, it is also anti-Buddhist.

The Old Testament is no slouch when it comes to advocating killing of innocents, though. I think the pope still considers that an essential part of the Canon (the Old Testament, I mean).

[navvet]

21. I omitted the Old Testament on purpose because

the Old Testament does advocate the slaughtering of innocents in some cases.

I understand Christianity to be based on the life of Jesus and hence the New Testament.

I can't think of any time that Jesus called for the murder of innocent people.

That was my point.

[daleo]

23. Fair enough, and I tend to agree.

But lots of Christians do care a lot about the Old Testament - sometimes it seems they care more for that than anything Jesus ever said.

[Maple]

28. Well if they're Muslim

they're not likely to worry about the new testament are they?

[Kraklen]

30. Where'd you get that idea?

[Kraklen]

32. Terrorism is also anti-Islam.

Do you really think that's what this rightwing nutjob meant?

[Dervill Crow]

69. I think he meant Christian = good.

That irritates me as a non-Christian, although it's true that Jesus would not like any of the killing that's going on anywhere, in his name or otherwise.

[KansDem]

8. Yeah, "Christian" is invading a country and killing >100,000 people...

Christian mythology never fails to amuse me...

[AlCzervik]

9. wait-does he mean that was a not a very Christian thing to do -or-

the attacks were on Christians? If it's the latter i don't think he wants to open up that can of crusades.

[BohemianJordy]

10. I shudder to think

Of what role the new Pope will play in world politics and the "war on terror"...do you think it's possible that he would support/urge on conflict? Seems like a step backward in the Catholic church...

I may not have agreed with him on alot of things, but I already miss John Paul...

[CBHagman]

34. No. Benedict XVI is and was a critic of the Iraq war.

And those who have been following the story of the Iraq war have surely read that the Vatican has consistently opposed the war in Iraq. Members of the Bush administration did meet with Vatican envoys before the war, though it seems their appeals fell on deaf ears.

But as for Benedict XVI/Joseph Ratzinger, read this, please:

http://www.cjd.org/paper/benedict.html

From that link:

"As a Cardinal, the new pope was a staunch critic of the U.S. led invasion of Iraq. On one occasion before the war, he was asked whether it would be just. 'Certainly not,' he said, and explained that the situation led him to conclude that 'the damage would be greater than the values one hopes to save.'"


For John Paul II, see the next link, but look at the old stories, not just the breaking news!

http://www.cathnews.com/news/302/49.php

"The Vatican has been outspoken in its opposition to a new Iraq conflict, with top officials saying a preventive US-led attack would have no legal or moral justification. The Holy Father himself has said war against Iraq would be a 'defeat for humanity.'"


A Jewish friend of mine pointed out that he'd read that Benedict XVI wasn't even sure there was such a thing as a just war. I found the following. See what you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology_of_Pope_Benedict_XVI

There are more articles floating around, but you get my drift.

[NNN0LHI]

36. Vatican's position is that our troops should continue occupying Iraq

http://www.americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=3350&issueID=465

[marialicht]

46. Unlikely.

He condemned this war in Iraq already and said that resistance to it was the right thing to do.

[DFWJock]

12. Is it "anti Christian"

for priests to rape children?

[progressivebydesign]

15. Wow.. the Pope thinks everyone in London is Christian?

Or is that just the stock answer for acts of violence worldwide. Does he honestly think that the bombers give a flying fuck whether or not it was Christian of them to do that? I think letting millions die of Aids in Africa because of your backward ideas is also anti-Christian. But hey, I'm not God's Rottwieler, what do I know?

[knitter4democracy]

29. I had the same thought.

How many of the dead and wounded are Christian. Why would he say something like that?

I'm so glad he's not my patriarch . . .

[progressivebydesign]

16. Wow.. the Pope thinks everyone in London is Christian?

Or is that just the stock answer for acts of violence worldwide. Does he honestly think that the bombers give a flying fuck whether or not it was Christian of them to do that? I think letting millions die of Aids in Africa because of your backward ideas is also anti-Christian. But hey, I'm not God's Rottwieler, what do I know?

[Occulus]

18. Oh, poor us, we're such a persecuted minority

Um. Ok.

[Zorra]

19. Still waiting to hear him state that the war on Iraq is "anti-Christian".

But I'm not holding my breath.

[Mari333]

22. amen n/t

[Voltaire99]

26. Well said. (nt)

[olddad56]

24. It's not anti Christan to kill non Christains......

If you look back in history, it is very Christan to kill non Christians.

[genius]

27. I am certain that the persons who did this claim to be Christians.

However, I don't believe for a moment that the PNAC gang is Christian.

[MadisonProgressive]

31. What the....

:wtf:

[d_b]

33. WTF

The pope is Bill Frist?

You'd think the POPE wouldn't stoop to divisive rhetoric.

[NNN0LHI]

35. Google "Fallujah+pope" once n/t

[iverglas]

37. the telegram may have been in English ...

but it was quite likely composed in Italian.

http://www.diario.it/?page=wl05070700

Ore 14.07 - il cardinale Sodano ha fatto sapere che "Il Papa ha appreso con dolore la notizia degli atti terroristici compiuti nella città di Londra e mentre deplora questi atti antiumani e anticristiani".

Something along the lines of Cardinal Sodano reported that "the pope has learned with sorrow the news of the terrorist acts committed in the city of London and deplores these inhuman and unchristian attacks".

It's a pretty lousy translation to say "inhuman" and "anti-christian".

The "christian" in the original is obviously an adjective, not a noun. Something that is "anticristiani" is contrary to christian principles. That may be irrelevant, but it's hardly characterizing the attacks as attacks on christians, as that translation could be understood to mean and some seem to have taken it to mean.

Interestingly, I found "liberalism" described the same way ;) --

http://www.univa.va.it/Varesefocus/VF.nsf/0/662C28E61E9BAEBCC1256E4500338DF4?OpenDocument

i principi anticristiani ed antiumani del liberalismo

-- "the unchristian and inhuman principles of liberalism" ... that being "liberalism" as it has historically been defined, the dog-eat-dog ideology of classical economic liberalism.

[happyslug]

42. No, the Telegram was in English: This is from the Vatican Site:

TO HIS EMINENCE CARDINAL CORMAC MURPHY O’CONNOR

ARCHBISHOP OF WESTMINSTER

DEEPLY SADDENED BY THE NEWS OF THE TERRORIST ATTACKS IN CENTRAL LONDON THE HOLY FATHER OFFERS FERVENT PRAYERS FOR THE VICTIMS AND FOR ALL THOSE WHO MOURN. WHILE HE DEPLORES THESE BARBARIC ACTS AGAINST HUMANITY HE ASKS YOU TO CONVEY TO THE FAMILIES OF THE INJURED HIS SPIRITUAL CLOSENESS AT THIS TIME OF GRIEF. UPON THE PEOPLE OF GREAT BRITAIN HE INVOKES THE CONSOLATION THAT ONLY GOD CAN GIVE IN SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES.

CARDINAL ANGELO SODANO

SECRETARY OF STATE

http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/16769.php?index=16769&lang=en


Notice the language? yes, Christianity, either pro, anti, un, pseudo, or even radical, is NOT in the telegram AS SENT. I believe the source is a Murdock owned rag and does not look like it can get the story straight.

[daleo]

53. If this is the case, it makes you wonder.

This would imply the Murdoch paper is just trying to stir up religious hatred. Nice research.

[iverglas]

57. please read the sequel

The "research" was completely irrelevant.

[iverglas]

56. uh ... yes ... I said that ...

Notice the language?

Yes, that's very nice. Amazingly, I can distinguish between English and Italian. I mean, given as how I translated the statement made in Italian into English and all.

What *I* quoted was a report in Il Diario quoting the statement made by the cardinal, speaking of the pope in the third person: "The pope has learned ...". That statement did include the phrase "antiumani e anticristiani".

Since the cardinal's statement was made and reported publicly, while the telegram was sent to the archbishop in the UK personally and subsequently (we don't know when) posted on the web, I suspect that the press report was based on the cardinal's statement about the telegram, and not on the telegram itself.

And I suspect that the Vatican releases its statements to the Italian press in Italian. And I have no reason to suspect that Il Diario misrepresented what the cardinal said, which I imagine would have been said in writing in the form of a media release. And I'd be pretty sure that the newspaper report quoted in the opening post was also based on the media release, and not on the telegram. And I would really not fault any newspaper for quoting from a media release issued by an organization, about what its leader said, as a reliable source for what he said.

Here's what the report quoted in the opening post here said:

POPE Benedict XVI today condemned as "inhuman" a series of attacks on the London transport network which left at least two people dead and scores injured, the Vatican said.

The pontiff described the attacks as "inhuman and anti-Christian," in a telegram to the Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor.

Pope Benedict added that he had learned of the attacks "with pain", and wanted to assure the victims and their families that he was spiritually close to them.

Very plainly, that reports what the cardinal said, i.e. what I quoted: the pope "learned of" the attacks, "with sorrow" (my translation, more appropriate than the one used by the newspaper: "with pain"), and "inhuman and unchristian" (again, my translation, the newspaper having used the poor translation "anti-christian", which may have come from the Vatican or from the paper's own newsroom; we don't know), and I should have capitalized "City" of London, which is the proper name of the small central area of London and which the report in the opening post referred to as "central London".

So, while

Christianity, either pro, anti, un, pseudo, or even radical, is NOT in the telegram AS SENT,

it WAS in the statement made by the cardinal on behalf of the pope.

I believe the source is a Murdock owned rag and does not look like it can get the story straight.

So, you having read that statement, which I provided, as taken from an apparently reliable source (is Il Diario a Murdoch-owned rag? would it be reasonable to think that it made a practise of misquoting the pope or his spokespeople?), I can't think why you would make an assertion like that.

The pope used the adjective "unchristian" to convey the idea of "not nice". That's a relatively ignorant thing to do, but it's what one might expect of someone who is supposed to be the mouthpiece on earth of the christian god, i.e. the one and only. It's actually a rather strong condemnation, in his mouth.

Someone (Vatican or newspaper, don't know) TRANSLATED the term antichristiani in such a way that it was not clear that the "christian" in the term used, "anti-christian", was an adjective and not a noun. This was plain as day to me because, as may be apparent, I'm rather an old hand at inter-language meaning mix-ups.

And some people, who don't speak other languages and are not on the lookout for such mix-ups or able to recognize them when they happen, got their knickers in a much bigger knot than was called for.

And then you muddied the waters up real good.

And just for the record, I think the pope and his entire board of directors should die, or at least resign in ignominy, and distribute the assets among the shareholders.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

65. Excellent points you make...

I wonder who's responsible for the "translation"?

[iverglas]

74. hard to say

I wonder who's responsible for the "translation"?

I would bet that it was the Vatican, since I imagine it provides media releases in a number of languages, to reach the largest possible audience.

It's still a crap translation, and the world is full of 'em. Sometimes it's a matter of the translator not being a native speaker of the language being translated into; sometimes it's a matter of a native speaker not grasping nuances (or even the grammar) of the text s/he is translating. Sometimes it's a matter of the translator (or writer, in other kinds of situations) being too immersed in the subject matter to realize what other possible meanings there are for the words and expressions s/he uses, and failing to take care to use the least ambiguous phrasing for outsiders' comprehension.

Any one of these could explain the faux pas here. The translator could have been a non-native speaker of English who just did a too-literal translation that s/he did not realize was ambiguous. The translator could have been an English speaker who didn't grasp that the "christiani" in the Italian was an adjective and not a noun, or, again, did not grasp that the English phrasing used was ambiguous. And the translator/writer could have been someone just so used to RC/Vatican lingo that s/he saw "anti-Christian" as using "Christian" as an adjective, and as meaning "antithetical to Christian values", and simply failed to realize that it could be read as meaning "anti-ChristianS" -- and in fact likely would be read that way by someone else ... at least if there were no context to suggest otherwise.

I actually do know whereof I speak in these matters (trust me: I'm always right and I never lie ;) -- my self-serving assertion of authority is all y'r gonna get!). But the notion of paying attention to context is one that not just writers and translators would be well advised to apply to just about everything.

If you'd like to see another example of tortured reading-in of plainly unintended meaning, do visit this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1611922&mesg_id=1611922

Leaping to conclusions against someone whom one may not know but despises all the same, or even against someone whom one rightfully despises when there is no basis for the particular conclusion, can be such fun!

[Jacobin]

39. Way to ramp up the Holy War, you moron

Geeze, where do they find these Popes???

Oh, nevermind, Hitler Youth,

[leesa]

40. This guy's a real ass. How about anti-imperialism, fool?

[UTUSN]

41. Hey Pope: And Crusades Are Anti-Muslim, So Your Point IS???? n/t

[DanCa]

44. Didnt the late Pope John Paul 2 condemn the chimp as the anti christ

I was just wondering. I really really detest the new pope.

[marialicht]

45. The Pope's telegram does not say "anti-Christian"

This unfortunate term may have been used in a summary by his Secretary of State, Angelo Sodano, but is not found in the Pope's message. These remarks are unnecessarily inflammatory.

[happyslug]

47. See my thread 42 above

It gives the Text, and I can not see how the Paper found the word "Christian" in the Telegram let alone "Ant--Christian".

[kestrel91316]

48. Jolly right, Mr. Pope! ................

HOWEVER, has it ever occurred in that tiny little mind of yours that terrorism is also anti-pagan and anti-semitic and anti-islamic and............well you get my drift. It's NOT ABOUT YOUR CHURCH.

[burrowowl]

49. Anti-Islamic too!

I had a good friend and her Curan taught peace as did Jesus.

[PsychoDad]

50. Would be nice if he decried the slaughter in Iraq

As anti-christian.

[bobbieinok]

54. previous pope condemned invasion of Iraq....now a different view???????

[IndianaGreen]

55. JPII warned that if the US went into Iraq, it would do so without G-d

Ratzinger's statement is in line with previous Vatican statements deploring violence.

[Massachusetts]

60. "Pope condemns London attacks ("anti-Christian")"

NO! its Anti-human Pope DUDE!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

64. Want a gig?

The world needs a new Messiah...

[DemBones DemBones]

62. Some DUers seem determined to drive Catholics away from voting

Democratic.

Great strategy! Keep it up and the GOP will be in power forever.

[cap]

63. I am Catholic and this Pope does not inspire confidence...

the more I hear about him confirms my worst fears.

[HockeyMom]

66. I second that

[Gyre]

67. Newsbreak: POPE TALKING OUT HIS ASS!

This old bag '0 bones is really shaping up to be a primo pope! Keep it coming Benedicto, you'll be mine before long. :evilgrin:

Gyre

[Dervill Crow]

68. That sounds like some of the stupid things that * says.

You would think that one of the prerequisites of being Pope would be the ability to keep one's foot out of one's mouth.

[Chicago Democrat]

70. Enter new idiot - Pope Stupid XVIII

I know... Call for a new crusade!

[blue suener]

71. good grief!

religious crap give me a headache. (emphasis on "crap.")

[Flammable Materials]

75. Oh. My. God. What an absolute retard.

I guess this means that all the non-Christians who died in London this week get their lives back, right? Because this wasn't an attack on them.