Saddam 'never killed Kurds'

[ECH1969]

Vienna - Iran, and not Saddam Hussein, was responsible for the killing of tens of thousands of Kurds and Shiites, said a lawyer for the deposed Iraqi dictator in comments published on Tuesday.

Issam Ghazzawi, who was part of Saddam's defence team, told the daily Die Presse that "Iran is responsible for the murders of the Kurds" killed by poison gas in 1988.

The lawyer was quoted as saying: "Iraq did not possess poison gas at this time."

Ghazzawi reportedly said that Iran also was responsible for the mass killings of Shiites who rose against Saddam in 1991.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,6119,2-10-1460_1736309,00.html

[StrafingMoose]

1. If I remember correctly...

Tarek Aziz also corroborated this (for what it's worth) in a book I read. The Kurds killed by the Iraqi Army were killed trough conventional bombings, according to him.

[Barrett808]

75. There is that DIA report concocted by Poppy Bush to cover up for his buddy

Saddam. It placed blame on the Iranians as well, iirc. Bush/Baker didn't want Congress to sanction Iraq for Halabja. They had unkind words for human rights groups...until it became convenient to use Amnesty reports in 1990...

[DemsUnite]

107. Story is probably wrong

But the war has been a disaster, regardless.

[wakeme2008]

2. His lawyer is probably right

http://foi.missouri.edu/polinfoprop/warcrime.html

And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

[geek tragedy]

33. His lawyer is DEFINITELY a filthy liar.

His lawyer claims that Iran slaughtered the Shiites following their uprising against Saddam in 1991.

But, the Saddam apologists are going to have a field day with this thread.

They're not worth talking to.

[wakeme2008]

72. We are talking about the Kurds and I would take the DIA word

on whose gas killed them.

[geek tragedy]

82. You're very trusting in the US government. Because they would

NEVER lie to you.

[TroglodyteScholar]

3. Oh, now THAT's messed up if it's true n/t

[ET Awful]

4. US intelligence said the same thing following those attacks on the Kurds

The substances used was an agent not known to exist in Iraq's arsenal at the time, but did exist in Iran's.

I have an odd feeling that the lawyer actually said they did not possess that type of poison gas, not that they didn't possess any poison gas.

[Up2Late]

44. No, he's right about the, "...didn't possess any poison gas..."

Saddam had and used Mustard Gas, not Poison gas.

Mustard gas is a Blistering agent. It causes massive exterior (and internal) chemical burns.

That is one of the strongest bits of evidence that what this lawyer is saying it true. In all the Photos the show of the Dead Kurds, they always have the signs of poison gas (blue lips) and not the signs of Mustard Gas attack.

[ET Awful]

48. Mustard is a "poison gas". What Saddam lacked was a blood agent

which is another type of "poison gas".

If it poisons the body and it's a gas, it is by definition "poison gas".

I'll trust my military NBC training as to what constitutes "poison gas".

[geek tragedy]

53. Let me guess, you've been reading the work of Stephen C. Pelletiere

a REAGAN administration official during the late 1980's.

Nope, no bullshit there.

[matcom]

56. well, I have been talking to a retired CIA officer

who witnessed what when on DURING that war as was his job. i'll take THAT testimony over anything you have put forth.

[geek tragedy]

61. And I'll take HRW and AI over an anonymous CIA officer

who's only talked to an anonymous DU poster.

[matcom]

66. my father isn't terribly anonymous

to me anyway :eyes:

on edit: my REPUBLICAN father until recently

[ET Awful]

73. Why bother matcom? He obviously chooses to believe

exactly the opposite of what you, I and numerous others know to be true.

[geek tragedy]

86. You don't know anything to be true.

There are MOUNTAINS of evidence that Saddam's government used poison gas against the Kurds. Interviews, eyewitnesses, forensic and soil analysis, documentary, and even audio tapes of Chemical Ali talking about gassing the Kurds.

It takes a strong will to ignorance to ignore all of that evidence because some Reagan-era flunkie disagrees.

[ET Awful]

97. Oh really . . . let's hear those audio tapes please.

Give me some copies here. n/t

[geek tragedy]

99. Hope you know Arabic.

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/iraq/chemali.mp3

""I will kill them all with chemical weapons! Who is going to say anything? The international community? Fuck them! the international community, and those who listen to them!

"I will not attack them with chemicals just one day, but I will continue to attack them with chemicals for fifteen days."

[ET Awful]

101. So you have a 15 second snippet as your proof? n/t

[geek tragedy]

104. Do you want me to teach you Arabic too?

Of course, that won't do it for you.

You'd just claim that's not his voice, or that HRW magically doctored the recording.

Or some other stupid bullshit the Saddam apologists always seem to excrete.

[ET Awful]

58. No, I have 8 years experience in the army, 4 as the company NBC

NCO.

I've read the DIA reports of what actually occurred that were prepared at the time, and part of my job as the NBC NCO was knowing which potential threat countries had which agents and what we were likely to face.

Iraq did not have blood agents at the time, Iran did. It was part of my job to know this.

You are the one trying to say that blood agent is nerve agent, not me.

[geek tragedy]

59. And I'm saying that the symptoms from the Halabja victims correspond

to nerve gas.

That's according to the analysis done by AI, HRW, and every other legitimate human rights NGO that looked into the matter. But, of course those groups are just Neocon tools and agents of the Iranian government.

:sarcasm:

Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, the Reagan-controlled DIA fixed intelligence around its foreign policy goals--which included an alliance with Saddam?

[ET Awful]

63. No, the condition of the bodies was indicative of a blood agent

as anyone with any experience and any knowledge of the symptomology of various agents can attest.

It would be hard for it to be "Reagan-controlled" seeing as the report was produced after Reagan left office.

[geek tragedy]

67. Really? Then how did the forensic examiners for the

only people to investigate the incident who DIDN'T have a compelling bias come to a different conclusion?

[LynnTheDem]

121. Hey ET! My hubby is NBC, too, and he agrees; blood agent, not nerve agent

Seems the US military agrees, too;

Both Iraq AND Iran were using chemical weapons, and it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, according to several US government and US Military reports, all of which are still on US gov websites.

The US State Department found both sides were using chemical weapons.

"There are indications that Iran may also have used chemical artillery shells in this fighting," spokesman Charles Redman told the press a week after the attack. "We call on Iran and Iraq to desist immediately from the use of any chemical weapons."

On May 3, 1990, referring to yet another study, "A Defense Department reconstruction of the final stages of the Iran-Iraq war has assembled what analysts say is conclusive intelligence that one of the worst civilian massacres of the war, in the Iraqi Kurdish city of Halabja, was caused by "repeated chemical bombardments from both belligerent armies." "
Washington Post (May 3, 1990)
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0218,trilling,34389,1.html

The US government itself later confirmed the fact that both sides had used gas and that, in all likelihood, Iranian gas killed the Kurds.

A Pentagon report, ‘Iraqi Power and U.S. Security in the Middle East’ published in 1990 states (Chapter 5): “In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing a great many deaths. Photographs of the Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemicals in this operation, and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds.”

-United Nations: No Proof Saddam Gassed the Kurds
http://www.polyconomics.com/searchbase/11-18-98.html

The Pentagon's USAWC and US Marine Corps report concluded Iran gassed the Kurds at Halbjah, not Iraq.

Lessons Learned: The Iran-Iraq War
U.S. Army War College Strategic Studies Institute

"The great majority of the victims seen by reporters and other
observers who attended the scene were blue in their extremities. That means that they were killed by a blood agent, probably either cyanogen chloride or hydrogen cyanide. Iraq never used and lacked any capacity to produce these chemicals. But the Iranians did deploy them. Therefore the Iranians killed the Kurds."

US Marine Corps document FMFRP 3

"Blood agents were allegedly responsible for the most infamous use of chemicals in the war—the killing of Kurds at Halabjah. Since the Iraqis have no history of using these two agents—and the Iranians do—we conclude that the Iranians perpetrated this attack."
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/docs/3203/

The DIA's report concluded Iran had gassed the Kurds & Iranians of Halabjah;

Immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent - that is, a cyanide-based gas -which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.

http://truthout.org/docs_02/020303C.htm

The CIA's report mentions "hundreds" killed, not "5000" and against the Iranians primarily w Kurds caught in the cross-fire. This report is still on the US government CIA website.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002.htm

Halabaja, the town where it took place, was at the time occupied by invading Iranian forces, and, according to MSNBC Internet Home News, hundreds of Iranians and civilians were killed, not thousands.

[Up2Late]

74. But it does NOT poison the body, it BURNS it.

It IS different and incorrect to call it a "Poison gas," though it is sometime called that by mistake. It has the effect of a strong Acid, once it comes in contact with the eyes, skin, lungs, etc.

Yes, "the news" interchanges the terms "Poison Gas," "Nerve Gas," etc., but now that we are talking about terms use in a court of law, it must be remembered that they are very different, even though they both are deadly.

Here's a link to the ATSDR Information Center:
<http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts49.html>

and from Wikipedia:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard_gas>

Dying by Carbon Monoxide or Carbon Dioxide poisoning is very different than dying because of chemical burns.

With "poison gas" and nerve gas, you die almost immediately on the battle field, Mustard gas is a slow and very painful death, usually at a medical facility.

[ET Awful]

80. It is a poison gas. It has always been a poison gas and has been

referred to as such since it's first use in WW I. For instance: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/poison_gas_and_world_war_one.htm

Any chemical that can kill you is a poison. BTW. . . Mustard Gas is also one of the few that kills via inhalation (it can cause injuries by contact, but rarely kills without inhalation, it is a disabling agent, not a lethal agent in most cases). The others kill via skin contact (they kill via inhalation as well, but via absorption of the agent through mucus membranes and the like, not through dispersion via typical inhalation). Nerve gas is actually a bit of a misnomer since most nerve agents kill by skin contact of the chemical in liquid or aerosol form, not gaseous form.

Now, let us look at the condition of the bodies as described in reports, they were universally described as having blueness of the lips and other signs consistent with suffocation or asphyxiation, let's look at the symptms of blood agents: "Prevents the normal use of oxygen by the body tissues so that vital organs cease to function within minutes."

Nerve agents leave almost no sign, they cause a shut down of neurotransmitters and the body simply shuts down and ceases to function (typically after a period of convulsions).

The chemicals Saddam was known to use at the time of the Kurdish attacks consisted primarily of blister agents (mustard gas). His capabilities with nerve agents at the time were minimal (very rudimentary agents), the injuries of those killed at Halabjah were not consistent with either type of agent known to be in Saddams arsenal at the time.

[geek tragedy]

95. How do you explain the forensic PROOF of nerve gas and the .

medical opinion of Dr. Hu from Harvard's Public Health School?

http://hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/ANFAL1.htm

[Up2Late]

112. Why do you keep arguing about "blood agents?" I AGREE with you...

...on that point.

The only thing I'm disputing is the Legal definition of a "Poison Gas" which, I feel, is to vague a term that should not be used to describe Mustard Gas.

"Poison Gas" is deliberately vague, election year "spin," that was used to push us into this un-necessary war. "Mustard Gas is 'Poison Gas'" will not hold up in court, and I don't think we (us here at DU) should use that term. Chemical Weapon, Blister Agent, or what ever new term the military are calling Chemical Agents these days, are fine.

I Agree with every other thing you have written.

Also, you might want to let us who don't know all the "jargon" that you and others here are tossing about here. I personally don't understand these abbreviations. I doubt I'm the only one having trouble with these too:

"...HRW and AI...", "...as the company NBC NCO...", "...Reagan-controlled DIA...." Please don't use this type of Jargon, if you want use to understand you.

[geek tragedy]

90. And forensic analysis has proven that Saddam used nerve

gas against the Kurds.

Your point is invalid.

[LynnTheDem]

122. WHOA now on the "both are deadly" part!

So are steak knives now & then, but neither they nor MG are in the same category as nerve and/or blood agents.

-Mustard gas is an area denial weapon and is not effective against large numbers of people.

-Against trained troops, mustard has a lethality rate of 2%.

-Against civilians, mustard has a lethality rate of apx 14%.

Guns, nerve & blood agents all have a far higher lethality rate than mustard gas.

[bullimiami]

5. he may have a valid defense re; hallabjah

""In our book Iraqi Power and U.S. Security in the Middle East we questioned whether Iraq had used chemicals against its Kurdish population, as widely believed. Your reviewer (Edward Mortimer, "Republic of Fear," NYR, September 27) challenged us on this. Since it is a matter of some importance, we would like to offer support for our view. Essentially there are two instances under scrutiny. The first attack allegedly occurred at Halabjah in north-central Iraq. All accounts of this incident agree that the victims' mouths and extremities were blue. This is consonant with the use of a blood agent. Iraq never used blood agents throughout the war; Iran did. The U.S. State Department said at the time of the Hallabjah attack that both Iran and Iraq had used gas in this instance. Hence, we concluded it was the Iranians' gas that killed the Kurds.""


http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2002/msg00024.html


it is accepted that iraq and iran both used chemical weapons, iraqs use was known and if not condoned, at least tolerated by the US govt at the time.
by focusing on hallabjah the prosecution may be screwing themselves because they will have to prove it was iraqs chemical weapons and that saddam ordered it.

[maquisard]

108. A poli sci professor of mine made much the same claim

According to him, both Iran and Iraq had gas weapons and used them frequently against each other and Hallabjah simply got in the way. He's not sure we'll ever know whose gas killed whom, but firmly believes that it could just as easily have been Iranian gas as Iraqi gas. He also confirmed that the US at the time made a big deal of it being Iranian gas that killed the Kurds in Hallabjah, since, at that time, Iraq was the good guy against the evil Iranians and, if they had used gas against the Kurds, it would have most likely been US gas they would have been using, since we were their principal supplier for biological and chemical weaponry.

[Zodiak]

6. Saddam cannot be convicted on this charge

I have seen the same evidence before and concluded that we cannot say definitively who gassed the Kurds that fateful day.

It might have been Saddam, and it might have been the Iranians, but the evidence is not there to convict Saddam alone on the gassing of the Kurds, so that is one more reason for going to war that was trumped up rather than carefully vetted. If I were totally objective, I would say there is more evidence that the Iranians did it.

Bush lie #2343: "he gassed his own people"

[StrafingMoose]

7. Anyways...

Saddam was brutal yes, but stupid enough to give the West such a great propaganda tool "He gassed is own people (TM)" ?

[geek tragedy]

34. Reagan denied it at the time. Who are you going to trust, human

rights organizations and the UN, or Ronald Reagan and Saddam Hussein?

[krkaufman]

8. Interesting. *Bush* has definitively said it was Saddam

Funny this ambiguity didn't find its way into the "debates" during the ramp-up to the Iraq war.

[geek tragedy]

39. This is Saddam's LAWYER. He's lying on behalf of his mass-murdering

client.

[geek tragedy]

32. That evidence has convinced EVERY credible human rights organization.

But, because some anonymous poster on DU says so, I guess we don't need to have the trial on that point.

:sarcasm:

[Garfield Goose]

9. "Gharrawi reportedly said that Iran was also responsible...

for the mass killings of Shiites who rose against Saddam in 1991."
Yeah, that sounds real believable and logical too.
:rofl:

[geek tragedy]

31. Anyone who trusts Saddam's lawyers are complete morans.

Period.

[Garfield Goose]

10. So, let me see if I got this correct

Iraqi Kurds oppose Iran's bitter enemy Saddam, so the Iranians kill the Kurds.

Iraqi Shiites oppose Iran's bitter enemy Sadaam, so the the Iranians (a Shiite majority nation)kill the Iraqi Shiites.

Got it.

[jman0]

14. no, an accident probably

no, i think it was never said that the iranians gassed the kurds intentionally. Rather it was an accident.

[Garfield Goose]

15. Accident?

Can you give a plausible explanation as to how one can accidently kill thousands of people with poison gas? Also, how can it be done without accidently killing your own troops? Uh, uh, not buying it.

[jman0]

16. it's like this:

The iranians over ran the place first, then the iraqi's won it back.
The iranians believed the iraqis were still in the village when they let fire the gas, but infact, they were mistaken.
The report also states that 5000 dead is suspect, that they believe that's an exaggerated figure because of the nature of the gas used.

[Garfield Goose]

21. So it's just pure coincidence

that only Kurds, enemies of Sadaam were killed with gas? Yeah. How come the Iranians didn't use poison gas agaisnt Iraqis in other engagements? They only happened to have it during their trip to Kurdistan? Yeah, that sounds believable.

[jman0]

23. who says they didn't?

I've never heard anyone say the Iranians didn't use gas during that war.
But i'm not here to convince you. If you want to believe Bush and the neo cons be my guest.

[Garfield Goose]

24. Bingo! You hit the point

There are way too many people here who want to give Sadaam a free pass simply because of their hate for that slimeball in the WH. Very disingenous. Count me out of that mentality. Sadaam did it, he will be found guilty, and then he will die. The sooner the better.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

25. Baloney. You believe whatever you want to believe, but the intial...

...US intelligence reports indicated that only the Iranians had the gas at that particular time with the specific ingredients found on and in the Kurdish victims.

And where were all of the WMDs that Saddam was supposed to have had prior to the US illegal/immoral invasion and occupation of Iraq?

Where are all of the mass graves that Herr Busch's people stated would be found in Iraq?

And after a war and 12 years of sanctions, how was Iraq a threat to her neighbors?

And if Saddam was so intolerant of other religions and cultures, how come several religions different from Islam were allowed to maintain churches and a synagogue in the middle of Baghdad?

Like I said, you can believe anything that you want to believe, but I think I'll trust someone other than the NeoCons to give me reliable information on Saddam.

[geek tragedy]

94. Do you consider HRW, AI, PHRUSA, and the UN to be Neocons?

They, and every single last credible human rights organizations UNANIMOUSLY agree that Saddam gassed the Kurds.

I'm amazed that people are so deluded by their hatred of Bush that they're willing to now accept without question bullshit propaganda prepared by St. Ronnie Raygun and Poppy Bush when Saddam was their buddy,

[StrafingMoose]

27. Uh..they DID use gas against Iranian troops?

That's how Reagan's advisor become first "concerned" about Saddam's CW use...

[ET Awful]

49. Ummm, Iran used poison gas against Iraq on numerous occasions

just as Iraq used poison gas against Iran.

You did know that right?

[maquisard]

111. They did use it in their other engagements

Admittedly, my knowledge on this topic is second hand, but it comes from a well-respected authority on Middle Eastern affairs who teaches at George Washington University, and, according to him at least, gas was used frequently by both the Iranians and the Iraqis during the war.

[matcom]

17. educate yourself

the kurds were killed with a BLOOD agent. NOWHERE is there evidence that Saddam possessed blood agent. the IRANIANS however, did and used a lot of it.

[geek tragedy]

29. Ever heard of nerve gas? Saddam had it--and used it on the Kurds.

[matcom]

47. nope

blood agent. very different

[ET Awful]

50. Actually, no nerve agent was used, it was a blood agent.

Of course, if you had actually done any research you'd know that.

[kodi]

55. refer to post #51

and i did do research on this.

[ET Awful]

60. the condition of the bodies (which numbered far fewer than any

report you cite) was consistent with poisoning by a BLOOD AGENT, not a nerve agent, not a blister agent.

[geek tragedy]

62. Funny, AI and HRW found that the condition of the bodies was

consistent with a nerve agent.

But, go ahead and rely on the Reagan administration's version of events.

[ET Awful]

65. I've seen descriptions of the bodies and at one point, photos of same

the bodies were consistent with blood agent poisoning.

[geek tragedy]

68. So did the HRW and AI and other investigators.

And they found it consistent with nerve agents.

[ET Awful]

70. I've seen photos of the bodies, I've seen descriptions of the bodies

I've seen various reports, and I have several years experience and training with the causation and effects of various nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.

I have an odd feeling that this stretches far beyond the experience and knowledge you have.

I base my information and belief on my own knowledge, expertise and experience, you base yours on nothing more than what you want to believe.

[kodi]

76. that is just plain, unvarnished bullshit

you say your opinion is based upon seeing pix of bodies, and deny the validity of other who actualy examined the bodies.

who's basing their opinion on beliefs here, you, who only saw pix, or others who actually examined the bodies?

it is clear that it is you who is basing your opinion on what you want to belive, not HRW or reports from the doctors quoted in the aticle i posted.

if you want to pull out your "expert" gun and fire it, be sure its actually loaded.

[ET Awful]

77. So what you're saying is you have no training or experience with

chemical warfare?

[geek tragedy]

109. Bill Frist has medical training, and he was certainly unqualified to offer

an opinion based on a few pictures alone.

Are you aware of the following:

1) Respiratory failure can cause blue lips;

2) Nerve gas causes respiratory failure; and

3) It's been proven that Saddam used nerve gas?

[othermeans]

126. Pentagon report denies Sadaam link to gassing

http://members.aol.com/apollo711/war/gasx.html

"It appears that in seeking to punish Iraq, the Congress was influenced by another incident that occurred five months earlier in another Iraqi-Kurdish city, Halabjah. In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing a great many deaths. Photographs of the Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemicals in this operation, and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds."


From a teacher at the Army War College: "This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target."

[dArKeR]

11. I've posted about this just because I know how much the Bush

Crime Family lies. But I've never understood why Saddam or his administration didn't publicly say this LIVE on the Media Whore news when they had a chance?

[matcom]

12. i have been posting this for YEARS

:eyes:

on edit: this comes from INSIDE information from The Agency

[Minstrel Boy]

18. me too

What's tragic is, since the libel against Iraq is no longer of value, the truth could now become the official story in order to propagandize against Iran.

[geek tragedy]

37. "Libel against Iraq?" Put down the kool aid.

EVERY credible body that has investigated the Anfal campaign has concluded that Saddam used gas not only at Halabja, but in several other locations.

Christ.

[Brooklyn Michael]

43. Look, no one's saying Bush hasn't lied....

But this attempt to whitewash Saddam's background just because we can't stand Bush is utter bullshit.

You can't rely on the investigations of countless organizations on other subjects, and then on this one, say "there's no credibility there". This is exactly what BushCo does. Amnesty International was a perfectly credible reference for them to make the case that Saddam was a monster. But then, when AI started criticizing Guantanamo, suddenly they're an unreliable organization?

As I said, bullshit.

[TX-RAT]

45. That and the Video of Iraqi jets actually dropping the bombs.

Why would the Iranians bomb the only people willing to stand up to Saddam?

[DS1]

20. yes, you have, but only now is it beneficial for the 'admin' for this

to come out - too early and they couldn't invade Iraq, now they can invade Iran!

[matcom]

22. ding ding ding ding

methinks we have a winner

[ET Awful]

54. So have I.

But it seems that some people are more willing to swallow the Bush Junta's line about who used the gas than they are the original information from the time that the attacks actually occurred.

[geek tragedy]

64. It was WIDELY accepted that Saddam gassed the Kurds

a decade before Bush took power.

Portraying the "Saddam gassed the Kurds" accusation as a creation of the Bush administration is a flat-out LIE.

Progressives in the human rights committee were all over this and fingered Saddam back when he was the tool of the US rightwing.

[anotherdrew]

83. it wasn't a creation of BushCo, as clearly it was created before Bush

The "Saddam did it" idea was clearly created earlier, but there is possibly some question. What are the resons to suspect he may not have been behind it?

I mean, I thought he used the gas we sold him. (or developed the gas from tech we sold him)

[geek tragedy]

85. There are two groups of people who think that Saddam didn't ever

gas the Kurds:

1) Reagan-era flunkies who want to whitewash St. Ronnie of Hollywood's record; and

2) Reactionaries whose hatred of Bush distorts their ability to process information.

We did arm Saddam, and during the late 80's and early 90's it was St. Ronnie Raygun and Poppy Bush who were denying that Saddam gassed the Kurds.

It was bullshit then, and it's bullshit now.

[othermeans]

127. Third Group that I belong to. Iranians also used gas and used it

indiscrimanately against the Iraqis.

[jman0]

13. i used to link to this report on CNN.com

Years ago on the old cnn discussion forums.
It used to be on the us marine corp website.
In fact one of the anti-saddam posters at cnn.com contacted one of the reports authors and asked did he change his mind after learning more via inspections regime.
But the author stood by his report, that Iran is suspected.
The report was commissioned by the boston war college i believe.

[jman0]

19. summary of the report here

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/docs/3203/appb.pdf

See page 2

[90-percent]

26. Mass Graves

"Where are all of the mass graves that Herr Busch's people stated would be found in Iraq?"

Isn't it a FACT that the US Troops in Gulf War One bulldozed Iraqi soldiers into their graves ALIVE?

Aren't the USA manufactured Iraq mass graves so much more spectacular than what that wussy Saddam is alledged to have done?

-85%

[Roland99]

28. So, that's a US-produced document?!

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/docs/3203/

[kodi]

51. when did you start believing whole-heartedly US military documents?

"Blood agents were allegedly responsible for the most
infamous use of chemicals in the war—the killing of Kurds at
Halabjah."

I would place more faith in actual eyewitness accounts.

But the real issue is whether or not the Iraqis gassed the Kurds not that a 1990 report by the Pentagon could not substantiate this attack. You are aware that the US military NEVER visited the site of the attacks? Subsequent studies by other organizations conclude that the Iraqis did in fact use chemical weapons against the Northern Kurds.

Human Rights Watch estimates that 500,000 to 100,000 people died during the Iraqi campaign against the Kurds. But the assault on Halabja and other Iraqi repression received little attention from the administration of then-President Ronald Reagan, which backed Iraq over Iran.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~kurdistanobserver/2-7-02-88-gassing-still-killing.html

”Halabja, a city some 150 miles northeast of Baghdad in the southern part of so-called Iraqi Kurdistan, is situated at the foot of mountains that separate Iraq from Iran. It is below the 36th parallel and thus outside the protected area of the American and British fighter-patrolled U.N. "no-fly" zone established after the Gulf War”

Neither the UN nor the Amreicans went there to find out what occurred.

"The Western countries in 1988 didn’t do anything against the Iraqi regime, " said Dr. Adil Karem, director of the Halabja Martyrs Hospital.

"Now they use the Halabja issue for their own benefit," he added, referring to Bush’s citing of the incident.

”Indeed, the international community has long ignored the plight of victims of the chemical attack. “Christine Gosden, head of Medical Genetics at Liverpool University in northwest England, is one of the few scientists to research the aftermath of the 1988 attack. She estimates that more than half the population suffers from respiratory problems and that major chromosomal disorders such as cleft palates and spina bifida appear in three times the number of people than in the nearby city of Sulaymaniyah, 10 times the size of Halabja.

”Karem complains that Halabja’s remote location and political instability have thwarted research projects. Aside from individuals such as Gosden, he says there has never been a systematic testing of the lasting effects on the water table, air, food chain and animals.

”He says that Halabja hasn’t even had its soil measured for chemical residue.

”In Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where the levels of congenital malformations, sterility, cancer and mutations were comparable, some 3 feet of soil was removed after the atomic bomb was dropped in 1945.”

But if further proof is necessary, how about a left leaning group? How about Human Rights Watch? Is such an organization and its past and present reputation for forthright honesty acceptable?

http://hrw.org/reports/world/iraq-pubs.php

“Iraq’s 1988 Anfal campaign of extermination against the Kurdish people living within its borders resulted in the death of at least 50,000 and as many as 100,000 people, many of them women and children. This book, co-published with Yale University Press, investigates the Anfal campaign and concludes that this campaign constituted genocide against the Kurds.

"The book is the result of research by a team of Human Rights Watch investigators who analyzed eighteen tons of captured Iraqi government documents (10 of these documents are reproduced in the appendix) and carried out field interviews with more than 350 witnesses, most of them survivors of the Anfal campaign. It confirms that the campaign was characterized by gross violations of human rights, including mass summary executions and disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants; the widespread use of chemical weapons, among them mustard gas and nerve agents that killed thousands; the arbitrary jailing and warehousing of tens of thousands of women, children, and elderly people for months, in conditions of extreme deprivation and without judicial order; the forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of villagers to barren resettlement camps after the demolition of their homes; and the wholesale destruction of some two thousand villages along with their schools, mosques, farms, and power stations. The book is a searing indictment of the Iraqi government’s carefully planned and executed program to destroy a people, harrowing in its detailed and objective recounting of crimes against innocents.”

[geek tragedy]

30. Well, the Reagan administration and Saddam's lawyer said so, so it

must be true.

:sarcasm:

Don't fall for it, people.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

41. Exactly

Ol' Ronnie must be grinning in his grave.

[Redstone]

35. Bullshit. Not even worth the time to read the whole thing.

Utter bullshit.

Redstone

[eissa]

36. Not believable

I hate *, his administration, policies, and especially his illegal war in Iraq more than anyone. However, we cannot give a pass to a brutal madman like Saddam. The Kurds and Shiites were always a thorn in his side; Iran would attack the Shiites because......???? If anything, the loyalty of the Shiites was constantly in question because of their shared religious beliefs with the Iranians. And the Kurds continuous quest for a homeland on Iraqi territory irked not only Saddam, but many Iraqis as well. If this is Saddam's defense, he needs new attorneys.

[ET Awful]

71. The attack on the shiites part is indeed bullshit, the attack on the Kurds

is something that I happen to believe is a legitimate defense based on the evidence I've read and seen.

[digno dave]

38. Well, at least now Bush has a reason to invade Iran!!!

Seriously, I tend to believe Saddam did this and this is a case of some people's hatred for Bush skewing their judgement.

[geek tragedy]

42. I guess those people just don't hate Reagan like I do.

Because it was St. Ronnie of Hollywood who first started the "Iran gassed the Kurds" bullshit parade.

People who trust Ronald Reagan's CIA over the international human rights community certainly have a weird set of priorities.

[ET Awful]

52. Except it had nothing to do with CIA, it was DIA, of course you knew

that right?

It has nothing to do with hating Reagan, it has everything to do with wanting to know the truth.

[geek tragedy]

57. You're right. The Pentagon's intelligence service under Reagan

was a fountain of pure wisdom and truth.

:sarcasm:

The symptoms of the Halabja attack and at other places match the effects of nerve gas, which Saddam most certainly did possess and most certainly did use.

[ET Awful]

69. Once again, since you haven't quite grasped the FACT . . .

The report was prepared AFTER REAGAN LEFT OFFICE.

Your obvious lack of knowledge in this regard does more damage to your credibility than anything else.

[geek tragedy]

115. You're right. It was prepared under Poppy Bush before Saddam

invaded Kuwait.

Same shit, different pile.

[Jack Rabbit]

40. Al Capone was nowhere near Chicago on February 14, 1929

I'm sure his lawyer pointed that out, too.

[ZR2]

46. O.J. Simpson's lawyer said he never killed anyone either

.

[The_Casual_Observer]

78. And bush isn't responsible for and Iraqi deaths either.

[damntexdem]

79. If the defense is that Iraq didn't have poison gas, ...

then to convict Saddam, the right witness will just have to come forward: Rummy can testify about how much poison gas the U.S. sold or gave to Saddam, when. ;-)

[ET Awful]

81. Actually, the defense is that they did not have a blood agent which

is the type of agent used against the Kurds.

[geek tragedy]

84. Forensic soil samples PROVED that Saddam used nerve gas:

http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical_weapons/chemiraqgas2.html

<snip>
For the first time ever, scientists have been able to prove the use of chemical weapons through the analysis of environmental residues taken years after such an attack occurred. In a development that could have far-reaching consequences for the enforcement of the chemical weapons treaty, soil samples taken from bomb craters near a Kurdish village in northern Iraq by a team of forensic scientists have been found to contain trace evidence of nerve gas.

The samples were collected on June 10, 1992 by a forensic team assembled by the Boston-based Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) and the New York-based Middle East Watch (MEW), a division of Human Rights Watch (HRW). The samples were forwarded to the Chemical & Biological Defence Establishment (CBDE) of Great Britain's Ministry of Defence at Porton Down which analyzed them.

Eyewitnesses have said that Iraqi warplanes dropped three clusters each of four bombs on the village of Birjinni on August 25, 1988. Observers recall seeing a plume of black, then yellowish smoke, followed by a not-unpleasant odor similar to fertilizer, and also a smell like rotten garlic. Shortly afterwards, villagers began to have trouble breathing, their eyes watered, their skin blistered, and many vomited--some of whom died. All of these symptoms are consistent with a poison gas attack.

"These scientific results prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Iraqi government has consistently lied to the world on denying that these attacks occurred," said PHR and HRW. "They also send a clear signal that chemical weapons attacks cannot be launched in the belief that the natural elements will quickly cover up the evidence."

According to scientists at Porton Down, the discovery marks "the first time that we have found evidence in soil samples of traces of the degradation products of nerve agent." In addition to degradation products of nerve agents, the samples also yielded significant amounts of the degradation products of mustard gas.

Alastair Hay, a consultant to PHR and Senior Lecturer in Chemical Pathology at the University of Leeds, said, "This discovery not only confirms eyewitness accounts and medical examinations of Kurdish people that nerve gas as well as mustard gas were used against them, but it also has enormous implications for the effectiveness of the chemical weapons treaty." While inspection teams from the United Nations Special Commission have found both mustard and nerve agents stored in Iraq, as well as munitions containing them, the samples from Birjinni show they were actually used, Hay said.

In addition to confirming reports of a gas attack on Birjinni, the findings "indicate that samples collected from appropriate locations can provide evidence of the presence of chemical warfare agents over four years after the attack," according to Dr. Graham Pearson, Director General and Chief Executive of the Chemical and Biological Defence Establishment. "This should contribute to the deterrent effect against nations contemplating the use of chemical weapons." So far, the Chemical Weapons Convention has been signed by 145 countries and is now awaiting ratification before entering into force.

In August 1988, shortly after the ceasefire that ended the Iran-Iraq war, the government of Saddam Hussein launched a major military offensive against the Kurds in northern Iraq, sending tens of thousand of refugees who either witnessed or showed physical symptoms of chemical weapons attacks. The PHR team concluded that bombs containing mustard gas and at least one unidentified nerve agent had been dropped on Kurdish villages in northern Iraq.

According to MEW, the Birjinni attack was one of dozens of chemical weapons attacks launched against the Kurds in 1988. "These chemical weapons attacks were part of a genocidal campaign carried out against Kurdish civilians," said Kenneth Anderson, director of the Arms Project of Human Rights Watch and a member of the PHR/MEW forensic team that visited Iraqi Kurdistan in June 1992.

At least four people were killed during the attack on Birjinni, two in an orchard and two brothers in a cave where they sought refuge. The remaining villagers fled. Refugees reported that Iraqi soldiers visited the village days later and buried the two victims found in the orchard an, elderly man and a young boy.

On June 10, 1992, a forensic team from PHR/MEW visited Birjinni, a small village of about 30 houses, a mosque, and a school. The team consisted of Dr. Clyde Snow, a well-known consultant in forensic anthropology to medical examiners' offices in the United States and professor of anthropology at the University of Oklahoma; James Briscoe, an archaeologist with Roberts/Schornik & Associates, Inc., Norman, Oklahoma; Mercedes Doretti and Luis Fondebrider, both members of the Argentine Forensic Anthropology Team; Kenneth Anderson, a consultant to PHR and MEW; Isabel M. Reveco of the Chilean Forensic Anthropology Team; and Stefan Schmitt of the Guatemalan Forensic Anthropology Team.

The forensic team exhumed the bodies of the man and boy reportedly killed during the attack and buried by the Iraqi soldiers. Anthropological evidence showed the man to be about 60 years of age and the boy to be about five years of age. neither skeleton showed signs of physical trauma. The forensic team took samples of clothing and soil and insect larva from the graves. They also took soil samples and pieces of metal from inside four bomb craters located about 700 meters apart. Three samples were taken from each crater: one each from the center and the southern and northern edges. The samples were secured in plastic bags, described, and labelled. The team also observed bomb fragments in and around the craters.

At Porton Down, analysis by gas chromatography and mass spectrometry found that six soil samples taken from the first two craters contained mustard agent and/or thiodiglycol, a compound produced by the hydrolysis (breakdown by water) of mustard, 1,4- thioxane and 1,4-dithiane, were also detected in these samples. The chemists at Porton Down also found the presence of the compound tetryl, an explosive that, according to Dr. Hay, is widely used in chemical munitions.

The second six samples, including pieces of metal, contained "unequivocal" residues of methylphosphonic acid (MPA) and isipropyl methylphosphonic acid (iPMPA), according to analytical chemists at Porton Down. MPA is a product of the hydrolysis of any of several chemical weapons nerve agents. iPMPA is a product of the hydrolysis of the nerve agent GB.

No traces of mustard or nerve agents or their breakdown products were found in the samples taken from the gravesites, although only about three grams of clothing were examined. Further analyses of these are planned.

According to the analysis team at Porton Down, "this is the first example, to our knowledge, that a suspected use of nerve agent has been corroborated by the analysis of environmental residues. The analyses also demonstrated that traces of chemical weapons agents or their degradation products can still be detected in the environment over four years later provided that the samples are taken from a point of high initial contamination."

Chain of Custody of Birjinni Samples

On June 10, 1992, the PHR/MEW forensic team archeologist Mr. James Briscoe gathered the samples from the craters in Birjinni. While still in Birjinni, Mr. Briscoe placed them in plastic bags marked with Chicago Police Forensic labels and labelled them. Later that day, Mr. Briscoe gave the samples to Dr. Clyde Collins Snow, the team's forensic anthropologist. The samples remained in Dr. Snow's custody until he gave them to another team member, Mr. Kenneth Anderson, on June 20, 1992. At no time were the samples unpacked.

On June 20, 1992, Mr. Anderson packed the samples in his luggage and they travelled with him from Dohuk, Iraq to Istanbul, Turkey. At no time were the samples unpacked.

On June 22, 1992, Mr. Anderson flew with the samples in his luggage to New York, NY, arriving on the same day. In New York, Mr. Anderson took the samples from his luggage, and kept them at the offices of Human Rights Watch in New York in a sealed box.

On June 26, 1992, Mr. Anderson sent the samples by Federal Express to Dr. Snow in Norman, Oklahoma. Mr. Anderson did not unpack the samples from their plastic containers at any time.

On July 13, 1992, Dr. Snow sent the samples by Federal Express to Ms. Susannah Sirkin at Physicians for Human Rights in Boston, Massachusetts. No unpacking of the samples took place.

On July 16, 1992, Ms. Sirkin sent the samples by Federal Express to Dr. Alastair Hay at the University of Leeds in Great Britain. The samples remained in his custody at the Department of Chemical Pathology, University of Leeds. No unpacking of the samples took place. In the meantime, Dr. Hay contacted the Chemical & Biological Defence Establishment (CBDE) at the Ministry of Defence in Porton Down.

On October 2, 1992, when the CBDE gave the final clearance for the samples to be analyzed, Dr. Hay sent the samples by Securicor Omega Express to the CBDE in Porton Down.

On October 5, 1992, Securicor Omega Express delivered the package containing the samples to CBDE. CBDE superintendent Mary C. French placed the package in a locked refrigerator, where they remained in the queue of samples to be analyzed.

On February 2, 1993, Dr. Robin Black at the CBDE opened the samples for analysis.
<snip>

[TX-RAT]

87. You beat me to it.

[geek tragedy]

89. Yes, but it's only a matter of time before DU's versions of Dr. Frist

and Coburn give their medical and forensic analysis based on a few pictures of bodies.

[democracyindanger]

88. Forensic soil samples PROVED that nerve gas was used.

Accuracy counts.

[geek tragedy]

91. They were investigating craters where eyewitnesses saw Iraqi

warplanes drop chemical munitions.

[democracyindanger]

93. So the forensic soil samples were eyewitnesses?

[geek tragedy]

98. Eyewitnesses report Iraqi warplanes dropping bombs on Kurdish

village. Forensic reports prove that the bombs dropped contained both mustard gas and nerve gas.

It takes willful stupidity to argue there isn't solid proof that Saddam's government gassed the Kurds.

It's like saying the USSR gassed the Jews during WWII.

[durutti]

92. Here's a good examination of the topic...

http://www.robincmiller.com/iraq-fr.htm

The only really convincing positive evidence I've heard of is the more recent documents supposedly captured by the Kurds. But HRW (who I don't trust) are (I believe) the only ones who have seen them.

[geek tragedy]

96. So you think the forensic evidence and the eyewitness accounts

were just fabricated by HRW, AI, PHRUSA, etc?

But you trust Raygun's and Poppy Bush's DIA report?

Sorry, this is a case of Bush hatred overriding logic and moral sensibilities.

[daleo]

100. PNAC response:

"Well, it would be handy to blame it on Iran, but we want to blame Saddam for it too...hmmm...maybe we can say he was an Iranian double agent."

[geek tragedy]

102. Some nutters here are basically stating that Saddam's lawyer is a PNAC

agent.

Jeepers.

[daleo]

114. I just say PNAC would like to blame whoever's convenient

To further their aims at a given time. They couldn't care less about the truth. They would blame the same event on a dozen groups if it was handy to do so.

As to who did the Halabja attack, it is supposed to go to trial. In theory that should settle matters. Although that might not work in occupied Iraq.

[ET Awful]

103. The naysayers will keep ignoring the fact that the condition of the bodies

was consistent with blood agents forever. They will continue to do so until such evidence is presented in court and the charge is dismissed because of this.

There are enough charges with which to nail Saddam without having to ignore the evidence that Iranian blood agents were used against Kurdish populations.

I'm done with this subject. People are so anxious to believe all charges of inhuman behaviour against Saddam that they will buy into all of them. Just like they bought into the "incubator" story, just like they bought into the "shredder" story, etc.

There are enough legitimate charges against Saddam without buying into illegitimate and questionable ones.

Sorry, but having seen the pictures, having read the descriptions and having been trained in the effects of various chemical agents, I am now and will remain convinced that the victims of the attacks on the Kurds died of a blood agent.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ET Awful]

106. Actually no, they are not consistent with nerve agents.

Nerve agents kill through other means and more quickly. Blood agents kill primarily via asphyxiation.

Nerve agents leave very little indication of cause of death on a body.

Of course if you'd had NBC training, you'd know this.

[geek tragedy]

110. Nerve agents kill through respiratory failure. Guess what color

a person who dies from respiratory failure are?

[mikelgb]

113. crappy

this is a win/win for shrub... is it was iraq more case against Saddam... if it was Iran... all the better... those EVIL Iranain heathens committing Genocide!!! We must kill all Iranians!!!!! :sarcasm:

[applegrove]

116. So the trial will have to prove Saddam had Gas. Does that mean

Rumsfield will have to take the stand? Is this the whole point of taking this position? To wrap the neocons & Brits up in what they did and what they supplied to Saddam in the 1980s?

Pretty smart.

I knew Saddam would cover the neocons with slime if given half a chance.

[geek tragedy]

117. The truth is on neither Saddam's nor the Republicans' side. eom

[applegrove]

118. Saddam was a monster. But he was the neocon monster in the 1980s.

He will make sure his trial takes a big chunk out of them. And Iraqis will learn something from it - and have a shared experience by watching the trial. And if AMericans leave around then..then maybe they will have peace.

[geek tragedy]

119. I disagree with your terminology a bit. Saddam was a tool of the Cold

Warriors and Kissingerian Realists. The Neocons, imo, are the ideologically-driven nutters who combine the worst elements of both the right and the left.

[applegrove]

120. Neocons had Reagan's ear. They were the ones who pushed

lack of democracy in the ME in the 1980s. The same gang as pushed for Iraq. They just changed policy in the early 1990s and came up with "democracy for Iraq at any cost" as the solution to the Islamism 1980s policies created in the ME.

They also came up with the plan of making Reagan look like he took out the Russians when the Russians were bankrupt and desperate for a way out by the - well 1960s by some accounts. But in the early 1980s the russians were crying "uncle" and the neos ignored that and built up war capacity & fear and ran the Russians into the ground in Afghanistan.

Always with the toy soldiers that lot. Already then believing they were the ultimate myth-makers.

The neocons were the ones who shut up the people in the State Department who were saying Russia was bankrupt and ready for reform just as Reagan was elected.

[Carolab]

123. An extensive backgrounder courtesy of LynntheDem at DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3135341

[Judi Lynn]

124. I shudder to realize I missed this thread once! Thanks so much.

I just saw LynntheDem's great thread #121, and marked it to study, just before seeing your archived thread.

These links are heaven-sent to those of us who haven't been able to keep up. This is a WONDERFUL aid.

:woohoo: :woohoo: :hi:

Thanks, Carolab and LynntheDem.

[jman0]

125. LynntheDem: you should add this link to your long post

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/50586247.html?MAC=dc7dd3787b458f60363a4e2b706ce17f&did=50586247&FMT=FT&FMTS=FT&date=&author=&pub=&printformat=&desc=Photos+don%27t+show+buildup

Regarding the bogus claim that Saddam was massing his troops along the Saudi Arabian border.